0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts,

0:02

radio, news, music and

0:05

more. The

0:09

The Anne

0:28

Giuseppe joins me in welcoming my

0:30

gladdies and bodies to another week

0:33

of the Little Wireless Program coming to

0:35

you from Caddigal Land. Behold

0:38

the brilliance and significance of

0:40

George Orwell from, well, Animal

0:42

Farm to 1984. Oh,

0:45

and that riveting, riveting account

0:48

of his experiences in the

0:50

Spanish Civil War homage to

0:52

Catalonia. But next

0:54

to nothing has been written

0:57

about the influence of his brilliant

0:59

wife, Eileen, who not

1:01

only looked after the practicalities of

1:03

their life, who not

1:05

only typed all his works, but

1:08

was his editor. Our award-winning

1:11

author Anna Funder has

1:13

written a beautiful book of

1:16

Eileen's life and role in George's

1:18

life, and we're looking

1:20

forward to a chat later.

1:22

And with the drug wars,

1:24

the wars on terror and

1:26

the culture wars waging in the US, Bruce

1:30

Shapiro is here to

1:32

give us some interesting background to

1:34

one of the hottest topics about

1:37

abortion rights. Now, Bruce is, of

1:39

course, contributing editor with The

1:41

Nation magazine, executive director

1:43

of the DART Centre for Journalism

1:45

and Trauma and at

1:48

Columbia University. And

1:51

Bruce, welcome back and please

1:53

annunciate carefully. That's a little

1:55

private joke. So I

1:57

understand, I understand that a

1:59

lot of people, The forgotten Law.

2:01

As my to surprise

2:03

return to the supreme

2:05

court tell me about

2:07

the com stop. This.

2:11

Is this is really

2:13

truly remarkable? an activity

2:16

of perhaps a judicial

2:18

resurrection that is actually

2:20

roiling American politics at

2:22

this moment. You know,

2:24

regular listeners to our

2:27

Now do understand that.

2:30

The Us courts have been packed

2:32

with abortion rights cases go away

2:35

after the Supreme Court ever since

2:37

Roe versus Wade was overturned couple

2:39

years ago. Of the most recent

2:41

case. The Calm before the Supreme

2:43

Court that was argued last week

2:45

involves mess of priests Stone The.

2:49

Abortion, drug and whether.

2:53

That can be banned in the males

2:55

that the latest front of anti abortion

2:57

wounds tried to ban mess up for

3:00

stone or from being sent from states

3:02

where abortion is legal to states where

3:04

it isn't. And

3:06

in the arguments

3:09

over this the

3:11

lawyers representing. The.

3:13

Anti Abortion movement and. Justices

3:15

Samuel Alito on Clarence Thomas

3:18

of Only To Impress Where

3:20

Our Home ah kept. Bring

3:22

up this law. a law

3:24

that is a hundred and

3:26

fifty years old past and

3:28

eighteen Seventy Three Call But

3:30

Com Stock Act a law

3:32

that most Americans know nothing

3:34

about a wall. In fact,

3:36

the prior Supreme court decisions

3:39

like Row Vs Wade and

3:41

earlier decisions about contraception had

3:43

essentially made irrelevant, but that

3:45

is still on the books

3:47

and is therefore suddenly relevant.

3:49

Again, it's a law passed

3:51

at the behest of well

3:53

and amazing character named Anthony

3:55

Comstock who maybe we'll talk

3:57

about a special Us Post.

4:00

Inspector which

4:02

effectively ban

4:04

contraception. Abortion.

4:08

Have seen literature litter to was

4:10

deemed had seen at the time

4:12

of a effect kind of sweet

4:14

been. Asleep Interest

4:17

City Law firm eighteen Seventy

4:19

Three that no one had

4:21

taken seriously, but that now

4:23

is suddenly being seriously discussed.

4:26

As. The direction the anti

4:28

abortion movement may wanna go

4:30

legally and as justification for

4:32

further constricting. Reproductive.

4:34

Rights in the Us. I

4:37

feel like a home in arms.

4:39

Honestly like forming a comstock same

4:41

club. Tell me about my hero.

4:45

But Anthony Com Stock was.

4:48

A is a kind of

4:50

hapless shop clerk of to

4:52

New York City from a

4:55

new Canaan, Connecticut after serving

4:57

in the Civil War. Were

4:59

two things really seem to

5:01

royal him. One was the.

5:04

The sexual behavior of his

5:06

his fellow soldiers and the

5:08

other was the what he

5:11

thought was the the popery

5:13

the over theatrical. displays

5:16

of Roman Catholicism among

5:18

Irish immigrants. He himself

5:20

was a Protestant activist and

5:22

after a friend died for

5:25

reasons that are a little

5:27

mysterious with he attributed

5:29

to various kinds of

5:31

debauchery Com Stock went

5:33

on a one man crusade

5:36

and ultimately teamed up with

5:38

Seen Them Pretty New Y

5:41

M C A The Young

5:43

Men's Chorus Association. to

5:46

campaign against what they saw

5:48

as vice and he ended

5:50

up with the y m

5:53

see his help being appointed

5:55

and eighty and seventy three

5:57

special postal inspector and held

6:00

that job well into

6:02

the 20th century. He

6:06

confiscated literature like the

6:08

writings of Bernard Shaw. He

6:12

chased down and drove to suicide.

6:14

A famous legendary

6:16

woman in New York

6:19

at that time, Madame Rustel, who

6:22

provided abortion services, among other things,

6:25

at a time when they were

6:27

not otherwise available or legal, brought

6:30

together and really originated

6:32

in some ways the

6:35

integrated far-right

6:37

agenda that we still see, in which

6:39

on the one hand there's

6:41

the crusade against reproductive rights.

6:44

There's the crusade that

6:47

we see now in Florida and

6:49

other states against, in book banning

6:52

in libraries, against sexually explicit literature,

6:55

and also, and a lot of people

6:57

forget this, the anti-immigrant hysteria. Comstock's

7:00

writings and

7:03

career were

7:05

really notable for their

7:07

persistent persecution of, well,

7:10

largely Irish immigrants, people with

7:12

names like Conroy just pepper

7:14

his writings and his indictments.

7:17

He was a really

7:20

powerful, sort of a national, moral

7:24

policeman whose

7:26

influence didn't end

7:29

really until after World War I

7:31

and his own death in the

7:33

20th century. Now, let's go from

7:35

Mad Anthony to Mad Robert. Robert

7:37

Kennedy, of course, is running

7:40

as an independent candidate in

7:42

the upcoming presidential campaign, and

7:45

he's just announced his running mate, another

7:48

Madie. Tell me about Nicole

7:50

Shanahan, if you please. Well,

7:54

we should say that this is not

7:56

a mad choice from

7:58

Robert F. Kennedy. because Nicole Shanahan,

8:02

one suspects, was picked because of

8:05

her considerable wealth. She's the ex-spouse

8:07

of one of the founders of

8:09

Google. She has

8:11

bankrolled already some of RFK

8:14

Jr.'s early

8:17

campaign phases. But

8:19

it's fascinating because

8:22

while he is famous for

8:24

his anti-vaccine stance

8:27

long before COVID, he was one of these folks

8:29

who was arguing that

8:32

without evidence, the vaccinations are

8:34

tied to autism and other

8:36

problems. Nicole

8:38

Shanahan, who's Silicon

8:41

Valley billionaire, formerly a

8:43

Democratic donor, has

8:46

her own crusade against

8:48

in vitro fertilization. She

8:52

describes it as a massive lie told about

8:54

women's health and claims it's at

8:58

the root of various health problems and

9:00

that there are alternatives like getting sunlight

9:03

every day that can help women

9:06

remain fertile. I'm

9:09

not even going to go down the evidence-free

9:12

pathway that she

9:15

describes, but it's a sort of

9:17

a parallel obsession

9:19

to RFK's anti-vax

9:22

conspiracy monitoring. So they

9:24

fit well in that way. She's

9:28

not someone who will

9:30

have any name recognition

9:32

or do his campaign any political

9:35

good in the traditional sense. She's

9:38

there because she can help bankroll

9:41

his, what would otherwise be

9:43

a fringe campaign. Now

9:45

does the Robert and Nicole

9:47

Panto horse gain

9:49

any traction or will it gain

9:51

traction? Well

9:55

they first need to get on the ballot. One of

9:57

the reasons that she was named now is that in

9:59

many cases, the The state he can't

10:01

even begin to petition your

10:03

way onto the bow or

10:06

to qualify. I'm unless the

10:08

both the president and vice

10:10

presidential candidates have been packed

10:12

so I'm bill that the

10:14

it was essential for Kennedy's.

10:17

Marginal aspirations. I'm that he

10:19

do this on you know,

10:23

The question that's interesting is

10:25

not will they get traction

10:27

Alternative candidates always get traction

10:29

but which way they pull

10:31

from Donald Trump is the

10:33

really a little bit nervous

10:36

about Rfk? He is now

10:38

starting to attack him saying

10:40

that he's just liberal democrat

10:42

but the do this fear

10:44

on the democratic side is

10:46

just the as great. That

10:49

are kg her could turn out

10:51

to be some kind of magnet

10:53

for disaffected democrat or independent voters

10:55

who might stay home, might not

10:58

vote but may be. Oh maybe

11:00

this works. He beginning to see

11:02

the Biden campaign take this. Rfk

11:05

threat a little more seriously. no one

11:07

really thinks of course that are of

11:09

cage when you're will. Despite.

11:11

In a murky mission, get

11:13

more than a small number

11:16

of votes, But in a

11:18

close election closely divided in

11:20

an electoral college states a

11:22

few thousand or a few

11:25

million votes can make a

11:27

very big difference. And you

11:29

know, indeed, we're seeing one

11:31

issue after another pile up

11:34

that could swing some of

11:36

these highly volatile states. Either

11:38

way, to go back to

11:40

abortion. For example, I'm in

11:43

Florida, the State supreme Court

11:45

just a loud a referendum

11:47

about abortion rights. onto the.

11:51

November ballot in Florida virtually

11:53

guaranteeing that reproductive rights will

11:56

be in play and that

11:58

state as a kid. Swing

12:00

issue will Rfk junior or

12:02

other alternate and candidates like.

12:06

The A Scholar Cornell

12:09

West. Or. Green Party's

12:11

Jill Stein. Will they swing enough

12:13

for the few votes to have

12:15

a nadir affects them all? To

12:17

the outcome of the election is

12:19

why we all know about the

12:22

Butterfly Effect. So I guess you

12:24

could be a clickable now Small

12:26

America continues to see arms Israel

12:28

and by no means it's it's

12:30

more mind doing so. Stay was

12:32

surprising support for an end to

12:35

the war in Gaza from role

12:37

of drums Donald Trump. Indeed,

12:40

In a culture. Shock.

12:42

And Awe! Interview

12:45

with a couple

12:47

of Israeli journalists

12:49

right aligned with

12:51

I'm Premise and

12:53

Netanyahu. Thera

12:56

President Trump said and I quote

12:58

you have to finish up your

13:00

war You have to get it

13:02

done. We have to get peace.

13:04

We can't have this going on

13:06

on. This was a. Particular.

13:09

Shock because of course

13:11

President Trump has. Up

13:14

till now fashioned himself as the

13:16

greatest ally Israel ever had in

13:18

particular a Prime Minister Netanyahu. It

13:20

was Trump who are ordered moving

13:23

the Us embassy from Tel Aviv

13:25

to Jerusalem, fulfilling a long long

13:27

dream of the Israeli Right arm.

13:29

You know what it it proves

13:32

a couple of things out. One

13:34

of them is that when and

13:36

Israel is no different. Than

13:40

any other one of Trump's

13:42

causes, as he. Will. Turn on

13:44

you in a minute if he

13:47

thinks it's own interest. but also

13:49

he is, if nothing else, a

13:51

shrewd analyst of publicity. And he

13:53

understands that as well as President

13:56

Biden does, I think that this

13:58

war has been pro. Family

14:00

costly. To. Israel's image

14:03

and could be profoundly costly

14:05

to a presidential campaign. That's

14:08

a sober. If I were

14:10

an Israeli politicians I would

14:12

take that as a sobering

14:14

indication of where things are

14:16

to wonderfully in muncie his

14:19

wounds of we should Be

14:21

Roots contributing to do with

14:23

The Nation Magazine and Executive

14:25

Director of The Dots Into

14:27

Pigeons Month, two months at

14:29

Columbia University and now and

14:31

fund. On I'm the know

14:33

soon see of the was known

14:35

as George or. As

15:09

I think a problem read

15:11

you beloved The Smiths. Christopher

15:14

Hitchens was in my very

15:16

first. My

15:18

first like.live thirty three years

15:20

ago and we went into

15:23

him. well. Oscillating

15:26

friendship sometimes friend, sometimes

15:28

not than reunited shortly

15:30

before his death to

15:32

celebrate his memory. I've

15:34

been listening to oodles

15:36

of essays he wrote

15:38

in. the last couple of

15:41

years before his demise mainly

15:43

literary his own every imaginable

15:45

topic and one of the

15:48

first was inevitably an essay

15:50

own he's a while he

15:52

was nice is pretty be

15:55

headed go to reduce door

15:57

and not only does he

16:00

talk about Orr with great love

16:02

and affection, but he manages to

16:04

drag George into almost every

16:06

interview he does. There's always an

16:09

Orwellian mention, but dear

16:12

listener, no mention

16:14

of Mrs. Orr. And

16:17

we are going to attempt to

16:19

correct that singular omission.

16:23

She's described her book Wyftham as an

16:26

intervention in history, an

16:28

exercise in making visible

16:31

the extraordinary woman who

16:33

was, well, far too long hidden in

16:35

the shadows of George, not

16:38

only his life but his works. Anna

16:41

Funder is our next guest,

16:43

the award-winning Australian writer of

16:45

Wyftham, Mrs. Orr's

16:47

invisible life, as

16:49

well of course as Starzy Land

16:52

and all that I am. Anna's

16:55

a crusade

16:57

to uncover history, for better

17:00

or worse, well, seen in

17:02

Notchup, numerous awards and are

17:04

now a long

17:06

listing for the International

17:08

Women's Prize for Nonfiction.

17:11

Anna, welcome back and congratulations. Thank

17:13

you, Philip, lovely to be here.

17:16

Over a 20-year writing career,

17:18

you've tackled the Nazis, now

17:21

Orwell and the patriarchy. What

17:24

is it about power that fascinates you?

17:27

Such a good question. Yes, my husband said

17:29

to me at the end of his

17:32

six-year writing process for Wyftham, first

17:34

you take on the Starzy, then

17:36

the Nazis and now patriarchy. Are

17:39

you done? I don't know

17:44

exactly what it is. I mean, you're asking

17:46

me a question to look kind of deep

17:48

into my psyche, but

17:50

as a storyteller, as a

17:53

writer, certainly untold stories or

17:55

stories that have not

17:57

been told or that are in the process of of

18:00

being erased like the

18:02

ones of

18:05

the victims of the Stasi or the sort of hero

18:07

resistors of the Stasi are

18:09

the most exciting to uncover and

18:11

the most interesting to tell because

18:14

what happens in a power situation is you

18:16

have people who resist it, who

18:19

are very easily seen

18:21

as heroes, not least

18:24

by me, and then the people

18:26

who are implementing power and they are

18:28

much more often much

18:30

more compromised, much more responsible and

18:33

much more interested in having a

18:36

previous regime or a previous system

18:38

invisibilised. So

18:40

just as a writer those situations are hugely

18:43

interesting. Invisibleised, is

18:45

that a coinage of yours? Oh no,

18:47

I think I just did that now,

18:49

that's terrible. No, it's terrific. Now

18:52

talking about the invisibleised, Wifetop

18:54

paints a picture of a brilliant young

18:56

woman who studied under Tolkien,

18:59

who understood politics intimately

19:01

and who played an important role

19:04

in the Spanish Civil War. But

19:07

who has been remembered in the annals

19:09

of history simply as a wife.

19:13

Tell us about Eileen

19:15

O'Shaughnessy. So

19:17

I started, I mean I'm a big

19:19

fan, I was always

19:21

a big fan and I still am a big

19:24

fan of Orwell's writing and at a

19:27

moment that I kind of remember in

19:29

my own life as peak wifetop kind

19:31

of young teens and a pre-teen and

19:33

so on, I started reading my way

19:35

again through Orwell and then the

19:37

six biographies of Orwell. When I

19:39

finished reading those I came across

19:41

these letters which had only been

19:43

found after those biographies were written from

19:46

Eileen O'Shaughnessy, Orwell's first wife,

19:48

to her very best friend

19:50

from their days at Oxford together. And

19:53

in the first one of those she's writing

19:56

six months after marrying Orwell and

19:59

they're living in a tiny Kind

20:01

of London. She writes. Her.

20:03

Friend: The Nora. I'm

20:05

sorry it's taken me so long

20:08

to write to you that we

20:10

have quarreled so continuously and really

20:12

bitterly since the wedding that I

20:14

thought I'd just right one letter

20:16

to everyone wants to murder or

20:18

separation was accomplished. I

20:20

read that and I just thought, you

20:22

are you. You're hilarious and what are

20:24

you quarreling about in these early days

20:26

as marriage? What is it that you're

20:28

having to get is T and I

20:31

wondered whether from her point is you

20:33

if I could find out more about.

20:35

What that metics looked like. There

20:41

was so. Little about her in the

20:43

biographies. It was astonishing to me. So I

20:45

set off to do two things: find out

20:47

who she was. Look at that

20:49

marriage from her point of view. And

20:51

then look at the ways in which she

20:54

has been erased. Up into the

20:56

present day on prisoners disease lucid

20:58

list Laces disappeared her really rude

21:00

to school. They. Were

21:02

I don't know a lot of that

21:04

that I didn't sign them myself. They

21:06

were written snow and know I had

21:09

no children and when she dies. Ah

21:11

they were. Given to us

21:13

and nephews and I think they would

21:15

discover as in and nephews garage your

21:17

house or something is in two thousand

21:19

and and early two thousand. Now

21:22

in are not into the

21:24

seek She meets every player

21:26

for years to man known

21:28

as soon as all and

21:30

soon after the Mary she

21:32

follows him to Spain with

21:34

a during the war against

21:36

the first is no. She

21:39

played a consequence roads and

21:41

well as well. George Russell

21:43

probably listen for. Look.

21:47

i that's homage to catalonia george's account

21:49

of fighting ad assassins spanish civil war

21:51

as a teenager and then more recently

21:53

when i was working on this book

21:56

and it's a simplistic pope but you

21:58

can read it twice in my case, did

22:01

not have a sense that he wasn't there alone,

22:03

that they were both there. And you

22:06

certainly wouldn't realise that Eileen

22:08

had a job writing propaganda

22:10

and in supply and communications

22:12

at the headquarters of

22:15

the little left-wing party that he was

22:17

fighting for. So she's at HQ in

22:19

Barcelona, and he is off literally in

22:22

a trench in the ground in the back

22:24

blocks of Aragon bored out of his mind.

22:26

So, and you don't understand that

22:29

from the biographies either, which say things like,

22:32

you know, she wasn't political at all. She

22:34

went to Spain to support her husband and

22:36

sent him treats to the front,

22:38

four-stop. As you researched

22:40

this period in their lives,

22:42

you started to see there

22:44

were numerous omissions in the

22:46

history books, and most particularly

22:48

in all his own memoir,

22:50

as you say, Homage to

22:52

Catalonia. Can you give me

22:55

a taste of what is missing? Sure.

22:58

So the one of

23:00

it sort of occurred to me after I'd

23:02

done all this work, I mean, I spent

23:04

longer trying to untangle

23:06

Homage to Catalonia to find

23:08

her in the absences and gaps

23:11

than they actually spent in Spain,

23:14

which is hugely embarrassing to me.

23:17

But I can give you an example. When

23:20

Stalin starts to crack

23:22

down on this revolution in Spain, and

23:25

he starts to round up left wingers

23:27

who he doesn't control, and

23:29

there are murders in the streets and machine

23:31

guns and so on. All

23:33

while the street fighting breaks out

23:36

outside their hotel, he happens to be walking

23:38

along outside the hotel, and he runs

23:40

away from the hotel instead of to it

23:43

where I learn is in their room. He's

23:45

on leave from the front, which is why he's in Barcelona.

23:47

And he spends a night away from the

23:50

hotel. The fighting, he says, is too bad

23:52

to get back up to the hotel, but

23:54

he leaves the place where he is and

23:56

goes out to dinner with an unnamed friend

23:58

to his hotel. comes back.

24:00

When he comes back, he says, in

24:03

homage to Catalonia, I tried

24:05

to make contact with my wife because the

24:07

telephones were up and running again. I couldn't

24:10

reach her, but I reached John

24:12

McNair. So I tell you,

24:14

Philip John McNair was Eileen's boss at HQ.

24:18

He's Orwell says, I reached John McNair. He

24:20

said to me, everything

24:23

was all right. Nobody had been hurt.

24:25

So that's what Orwell writes in a

24:28

paragraph. What he's not saying is, I

24:31

rang our hotel room. Eileen wasn't there. So

24:33

I rang her office, but he

24:35

can't tell the reader that she has an

24:37

office because he can't. He doesn't want the

24:40

reader to understand that she's there working in

24:42

a political job at headquarters. So

24:44

he rings the office, readers McNair. Well,

24:47

why? That is the big question.

24:50

Would it somehow take away from

24:52

his adventures in Spain if it

24:56

were clear that he could make it sound a

24:58

bit domestic or

25:00

that he perhaps relied on her for informing

25:03

him about the political situation

25:05

in Spain? She had an

25:07

excellent political now. And she

25:10

was receiving from him from the

25:12

trenches on the backs of

25:15

envelopes and toilet paper and goodness knows

25:17

what the notes that she was then

25:19

typing, which would form the basis of

25:21

Amish to Catalonia, that she edited. But

25:23

she also informed it because she knew

25:26

she had spies, Stalinist spies in her

25:28

office. She knew what was going on

25:31

in the politics in the hotel, in the

25:33

town and so on. So she really informed

25:35

that book. At the end of their time

25:37

in Spain, she saved his life to get

25:39

them out of there. Because after

25:42

six Spanish policemen controlled

25:44

by the Stalinists searched

25:47

their hotel room while she was in bed.

25:51

Under the bed, she had thought to put

25:53

their passports and checkbook. She stayed in that

25:55

bed for two hours while the room was

25:57

searched. Orwell does tell us that. But

26:00

he tells us that not as an example

26:02

of her courage, but as an example of

26:04

the tendency, he says, of Spanish

26:07

men, even when they're being controlled

26:09

by Stalin. So at every point he finds it

26:11

very difficult to see her or to talk about

26:13

her or to give her any credit. I

26:17

did wonder at times what it

26:19

felt like for her to be

26:21

typing herself out of the manuscript

26:23

of Armistice Catalonia that she had

26:25

informed. But at the end of

26:27

their time in Spain, she then manages

26:29

to get these vital

26:31

stamps in their passport from the

26:34

prefecture of police so that

26:37

they can high tailor it out of Spain. And

26:40

Stalin has issued an arrest warrant for the two of them.

26:43

He names her very clearly in

26:45

that arrest warrant. And she

26:47

manages to go into this Stalinist controlled

26:49

headquarters and get the stamps. So she

26:52

saves his life getting out of Spain. But

26:56

I think there's a sense in which he

26:58

would have felt diminished had he acknowledged that. So

27:01

homage to Catalonia, but not homage

27:03

to Eileen. Now, how

27:06

did she influence his writing? You've

27:08

found quite a lot of strong

27:10

suggestions, haven't you? Yes,

27:12

it's interesting. So as soon as they got

27:15

married, people remarked that his writing got much

27:17

better. She has an English degree from Oxford.

27:20

She studied under Tolkien and she

27:22

knew a lot about fables, also

27:24

fables and Chaucer. And

27:28

one of the biologists said, well,

27:30

whether by coincidence or influence,

27:32

we don't know, but his writing suddenly

27:34

improved all these kinds of things. It's

27:37

particularly with regard to Animal Farm that

27:39

we know the most because during

27:42

the Second World War in London, Eileen

27:44

was working for money to support them

27:46

first up at the

27:48

Department of Censorship in the Ministry

27:51

of Information and then

27:53

later at the Ministry of Food. How

27:55

perfect. How perfect. So when she was at the

27:57

Department of Censorship, that was in Senate House. in

28:00

London which Orwell later took as the

28:02

model for the Ministry of Truth, i.e.

28:05

of Lies, in 1984. Before

28:09

they were married, I should say, she

28:11

published a poem that she'd written for her

28:13

school called 1984, end of the century 1984, so I don't know

28:15

whether his 1984 much later was

28:20

some sort of homage to that. But

28:23

we know most about her influence on

28:25

Animal Farm, which he considered the best

28:27

of his works, and many people do.

28:29

It's an outlier in all of his

28:31

works because it doesn't have the usual

28:34

kind of underdog,

28:36

every man slightly grumpy Orwell

28:39

stand-in figure who,

28:41

you know, is often so charming, who we see

28:43

the world through. It has an ensemble

28:45

cast of characters and is witty and

28:47

whimsical and not sadistic, and

28:50

they wrote it effectively together. So he wanted

28:52

to write an essay critical of Stalin,

28:55

and Stalin at that point was helping the

28:58

Allies win the war, and having worked in

29:00

the Department of censorship earlier in the day, and look, you'll

29:02

never get that published. So

29:04

I don't know what the best of that conversation was,

29:06

but the result of her saying to him, don't

29:09

make it an essay, was that together they

29:11

made it into the novel that was Animal

29:13

Farm. A friend

29:16

of George has said he

29:19

never really looked at another human

29:21

being and was

29:23

not a reliable judge of character,

29:26

whereas that Eileen clearly

29:28

was. Yes, I

29:30

think George wasn't

29:33

really interested in people. He didn't really have

29:35

the knack of seeing

29:38

people. So the person who said that of him

29:40

was his very closest friend Richard Rees, and

29:43

looked after him until the end of his life. Whereas

29:47

people said of Eileen, you know, one

29:50

of her close friends said of her, we

29:53

thought she was affected at first because we would ask

29:55

her a question and it took her so long to

29:57

respond to us, but then we realized that she She

30:00

was taking in what we said to her and

30:02

she could see through people as if

30:04

their faces and manners were glass, what

30:06

she saw were their feelings and

30:09

she would give you a response that was from your own

30:11

point of view in a way. So

30:14

I think she was able to perhaps

30:16

interpret people or the world to

30:19

him and certainly she was able to make

30:21

him write characters or help him

30:23

write characters in Animal Farm that

30:26

are different from those in any

30:28

of his other works. Going down,

30:30

Funder, back to invisibilisation, you say

30:33

that the six

30:35

great hawl biographers, all men,

30:37

it should be noted, consciously

30:40

or unconsciously conspired

30:43

to make Aileen invisible. Tell

30:45

me what you mean when you say

30:47

the biographies were fictions

30:50

of omission. I

30:53

think the

30:56

most, I came to

30:58

think that what happens is

31:01

many, many women in

31:03

Orwell's life are

31:05

either left out on the cutting room

31:08

floor, you don't know about them or

31:10

their influence, or

31:12

they are trivialised, minimised,

31:15

reduced to footnotes, their accounts

31:17

are doubted and

31:20

so on. When I saw grew up in

31:22

a female led family,

31:25

his mother

31:27

and aunt, to whom he was very

31:30

close, were feminists. His aunt was

31:32

a suffragette who had been imprisoned along with

31:34

the Pankers. She was

31:36

an Esperantist, his aunt Nellie. I

31:39

didn't know that. She ran a

31:41

literary salon in London for which

31:43

H.G. Wells and Nesbitt and other

31:45

luminaries were invited. She was

31:47

in Paris the whole time he was there writing down

31:49

and out. They were

31:51

Fabians and suffragettes. So Orwell Is

31:54

growing up in a family of

31:56

women who are politically and intellectually

31:58

interested in acting. Feminist and

32:00

left wing and he becomes a man

32:03

who sees things from this as I

32:05

say underdog point of view and is

32:07

left wing so one would sink and

32:09

his father was a bit of a.

32:12

Dolt to put no

32:14

bones. About it's. At

32:16

one would think that that was the inheritance

32:18

that was most interesting for the man who

32:21

became oh well, but you will never learn

32:23

that about those women have made him in

32:25

the biographies let alone about Eileen. In

32:27

her enormous influence or go

32:29

Euros the Christian move those

32:32

characters use a relentless for

32:34

main room had she cope

32:36

with. And.

32:40

I. Don't really know how she coped

32:42

with. We sat at. I'd.

32:44

People have different arrangements. There's

32:46

no evidence. From her letters

32:48

and. About that

32:50

in particular I'm some us

32:53

the. Some. of what he

32:55

did was. In ways and

32:57

beyond philandering. So he slept ways

32:59

one of her closest friends and

33:02

then wanted her to know about

33:04

that, an Easterner. He brandished a

33:06

less half from this woman Lydia

33:09

in front of I Lane and

33:11

Eileen's either pretended. Not to notice

33:13

or. Really didn't notice

33:15

so his time to kind of

33:17

isolate has and from the woman

33:19

who later we know was very

33:21

critical of oil he also is

33:24

a lot of things that were.

33:26

About buses coin this term which is

33:29

the all well pounds so we're not

33:31

talking to I'm sorry run the post

33:33

review yes. Indeed, the Orwell Pump.

33:36

So what they mean by

33:38

that is. Essentially a

33:40

kind his. Sexual. Assault

33:42

Really? Which is. Being euthanized into

33:44

something that is perhaps and

33:46

a know pussy cat like

33:49

or us natural or I'm.

33:53

An unwilling or something that he

33:55

really did and have this sawdust.

33:57

M E what he was. Making.

34:00

Sexual advances quite forced to

34:03

play to women in workplaces.

34:05

At parties in parks am when they

34:07

didn't want it and they are accounts

34:09

from those women of what that felt

34:11

like. Those of course are all minimized

34:13

in the biographies. Seminole or not

34:16

mentioned by Christopher Hitchens, I

34:18

assume he resists. Oh no,

34:20

We never seen that one would imagine. I

34:23

don't know if Across the Hitchens was interested

34:25

in this, but many of Orwell's fans, including

34:27

a woman who had been his patron mabel

34:29

See It who had got seventeen this test

34:32

agents and. Money.

34:39

As he knew him very well and

34:42

see thought. An Aimless on the

34:44

six whole, as did many else. Ah.

34:47

All. Those other friends and am.

34:50

I don't know that that's ever really.

34:52

Put into the kind. Of public

34:54

discourse about him and at an A with

34:56

a Hitchens did because it might be settling

34:59

into. To. Him while I'm from.

35:01

trust him different reasons A

35:03

to realize how extraordinary smell

35:05

the book takes a port

35:07

unique for a breeding new

35:10

for think some sections in

35:12

and now was shining a

35:14

light on oh I lean

35:16

and yourself know what led

35:19

you to write the book

35:21

in this old was assess.

35:23

Assess odd is right or this

35:25

right. I didn't some it's and

35:27

sustained. I didn't want to do

35:30

it like that. I didn't choose

35:32

to the I les mis and

35:34

we obviously I did bed with

35:36

Aids is am my books I'm

35:38

trying to say something in as.

35:41

As. True away as possible. So Staci

35:44

land for instance I wanted to

35:46

write a novel then when I

35:48

was younger but I sort of

35:50

event sleep with completely realms and

35:52

use other people's stories that that

35:54

when those people of walking. round berlin

35:56

and destroys white thing called for had to

35:58

put the whole thing as

36:00

a way of showing contemporary Berlin in

36:02

the 90s as it was making itself

36:05

back together. In this one, I'm only

36:07

in this book really to say

36:10

some of these methods by which

36:12

women and women's

36:14

voices and women's work and the work

36:16

of life and love that women do

36:18

in heterosexual relationships are made

36:21

invisible, taken for granted, assumed

36:24

to be willingly given and written

36:27

out of history. Some of those methods,

36:29

primarily among them the

36:32

passive voice, where people

36:34

say we did this and we did that or it

36:36

was arranged that or the Christmas dinner was cooked

36:38

or the

36:41

life was saved, the manuscript was typed, conditions

36:43

were idyllic, all of these other ways of

36:46

passive voicing away conditions

36:49

which exist because of the work of women. I wanted to

36:51

bring that into the present tense so that's why

36:53

there's a bit of kind of present tense narrative

36:55

in it. I wanted to show

36:57

who Eileen and George really were and

37:00

I wanted to show how it

37:03

is that we don't know who Eileen

37:05

is despite six biographies of

37:07

Orwell and her extraordinary importance

37:10

in his life and work. As

37:12

we sit here together and talk

37:14

I remember programs who have done

37:16

on over in invisibilised

37:19

women like Einstein's wife

37:21

for example, another

37:23

great example. You say in

37:26

the book that you wanted to

37:28

write fiction that tries not to

37:31

lie. Yes, to get back to

37:33

your question about fictions of omission, these

37:36

six biographies all of which are material

37:38

and wonderful and which I

37:40

rely on and

37:43

I'm then critiquing

37:45

in a way, my

37:48

information comes from them. What I am saying

37:50

is not really for the most part new,

37:53

it's just that I'm looking at things from

37:55

the point of view of what it was like to be that

37:57

woman rather than from the point of view of what it was

37:59

like. of you of the

38:01

biographers who in general and I'm

38:04

generalizing would like to

38:06

make Orwell seem like the decent man

38:08

that he would have liked to

38:11

have seen himself as. But you've

38:13

already made it clear that he wasn't

38:15

a decent man. Doublethink. Doublethink

38:17

indeed. So you have to hold in

38:20

your mind two things. So we learn

38:22

from Orwell, he remains unbelievably valuable. We

38:24

hold in our minds two things. As

38:27

he said, doublethink was you

38:29

have to hold one is a conscious level.

38:31

This is what he did and the other

38:34

at an unconscious level. This is also what

38:36

he did. How do we square those things?

38:38

And I think the fact is

38:40

that we have to look at you

38:43

can't get a full picture of the man unless you

38:45

can see also his wife and what he

38:47

got from her and what he did to

38:49

her. Did you

38:51

have rules of engagement for

38:53

the almost true scenes?

38:56

Yes, I did. So what I'm

39:00

saying is that the biographers are writing a

39:02

fiction of omission in that you have to

39:05

get rid of the mother and the aunt

39:07

and trivialize the women who he pounced on

39:09

and their account and so on in order

39:11

to make him seem decent. So that's the

39:13

way that they construct the most decent hero

39:16

writers that they love. And

39:18

that's a fiction of omission. My fiction

39:20

is of inclusion. So I

39:22

was lucky enough to get permission to use

39:25

Eileen's letters, some of them. So six letters

39:27

that she wrote to her best friend which

39:29

cover the course of this marriage. So

39:32

the scenes that I'm writing

39:34

are mostly scenes where she is

39:36

writing the real letters that she wrote to

39:38

Nora and I know where she

39:40

was. I know what she's leaving out of the letters,

39:43

you know, that George is off with someone else or

39:45

that he's about to go to Spain or

39:47

whatever it is or that she's very ill. And

39:50

so I write her back into being.

39:52

It felt like I could allow myself

39:54

to write a fiction of inclusion so

39:57

that she would live again Writing these letters.

40:00

She really right that does seem

40:02

that clearly invented in the work

40:04

net. The lead a noise immediately

40:07

that you're going into something. It is a

40:09

presentation of her. To. Times

40:11

described. As

40:14

I passionately past summer to for

40:16

the tree reparations, how do you

40:19

feel of of the word part

40:21

assess? Assess assess it's so interesting

40:23

isn't it vs am I feel

40:25

about that in a way you

40:28

know sentences that slice around the

40:30

world today like women and other

40:32

minorities in a all put together

40:35

and in a way that makes

40:37

no sense at all. I sail

40:40

that partisan is trying to make

40:42

this point is you because applied

40:44

to see that as test their

40:47

with he people in the marriage

40:49

the lack of them. And

40:51

studied the biographies or disk with of

40:54

our professor described as partisan. Tag is

40:56

in their credit for representing a tree

40:58

as they see it. So I think

41:01

it's a telling word to use. and

41:03

I suppose it does to my point

41:05

about the world that we listen. You

41:09

seem to find the right

41:11

into sexual sections the easiest

41:13

and most to some. Ideas

41:16

Exactly what that says. Yes,

41:18

I definitely. I definitely days.

41:20

I mean, I Mass. ah.

41:24

I didn't seal. I didn't feel it would be that to

41:26

write a novel about island which I could have done. And

41:29

would have been a lot easier for

41:31

a couple of reasons. I am: she's

41:33

sort of so clever and so we

41:35

t I didn't think I could really

41:37

get him signed. The voice to match,

41:39

pass or do it justice. Ruth I

41:41

wanted to be clear about not only

41:43

his she was in. This is nothing

41:46

but why it is that we don't

41:48

know about. This is

41:50

her husband, The because of the biographies and because

41:52

the Patriarchy south. The book had to do two

41:54

things that it was really. Very joyous to

41:56

right there since I think that's really

41:58

where my. heart lies. I

42:02

know you still hold all in

42:04

the highest regard and

42:06

you liked his self-deprecating humour and

42:09

that laser vision about our

42:11

power work so you're not

42:13

interested in cancelling him. No,

42:16

not remotely. I think he's very important and

42:18

today we live in an age

42:21

of rising authoritarian and totalitarian dictatorships,

42:23

blanket surveillance. We carry in our

42:25

pockets what Winston Smith would have

42:28

recognised as a telescreen in 1984

42:30

at all times and I

42:33

think what

42:36

Orwell has to say about power in 1984

42:39

and about surveillance and totalitarianism

42:43

is extremely important.

42:45

I can

42:47

hold in my mind the two

42:49

things so I can also

42:52

see quite clearly that the man who

42:54

wrote, say, 1984 and its

42:56

vision of, which is

42:58

a kind of paranoid vision,

43:00

projecting a surveillance state of

43:02

total surveillance, total power and

43:04

dictatorship, it's

43:07

also a simplistic vision with all of the rats.

43:10

He has fantasies about Winston, has fantasies of

43:12

raping a woman and slitting her throat at

43:14

the moment of climax and so on. It's

43:16

quite misogynistic. So to expect

43:18

that to come from a man who

43:20

is a hail fellow, well-met, vanilla

43:23

kind of every man is

43:25

a mistake on the reader's part. I think it's much

43:27

more interesting to see a more

43:30

realistic complex view of the

43:32

man who drew that vision from

43:34

himself and his experiences. So

43:37

there's nothing about cancelling. Something I would

43:39

say is Orwell is

43:41

extraordinarily useful. Terms

43:43

like doublethink is very useful.

43:46

I had a recent

43:48

experience of an

43:50

article being published in a paper where all of the

43:52

quotes from me were invented and

43:54

they were put into quote marks

43:57

and they were saying wrong things

44:00

that I never said. And

44:02

so I wrote to the newspaper and said,

44:04

you know, to the

44:06

editor, said, these are wrong. And

44:09

then they, without saying

44:11

anything to me, changed the quotes, still

44:13

in quote marks, still wrong, different version

44:15

of wrong, and then put a note at the bottom

44:18

of the piece saying, they didn't publish my

44:20

letter, put a note at the bottom of

44:22

the piece saying, this article has been changed

44:24

due to an error

44:26

in the editing process. So

44:29

I just thought, wow, I

44:31

don't know whether that I've been buried in

44:33

a memory hole. So this

44:36

piece which exists on the internet, there's no

44:38

evidence that it's wrong that I never said

44:40

those things that it has

44:42

been so called corrected. And

44:45

I've just gone down Winston Smith's shoot.

44:49

You say that Eileen's

44:51

contribution challenges the genius

44:53

myth. Well,

44:56

I think, I don't know that

44:58

Orwell was a genius. And,

45:02

you know, the biographers are debating it and so

45:04

on. I don't really enter into that. What

45:07

was really very interesting to me, and I guess

45:09

it goes also to Einstein and his wife and

45:11

to all of these pairings. Sometimes

45:14

this discussion is reduced to, oh, well,

45:17

Eileen cleaned the privy and made all

45:19

the meals. Sometimes it's extended

45:21

to the fact that she supported them financially, or

45:24

whatever a wife is doing in a couple

45:26

where there's a brilliant man. But

45:29

one of the things certainly for writers that's so

45:31

important is to imagine

45:33

yourself as important

45:37

enough to have something to say. And

45:40

that requires, as Orwell occasionally

45:42

acknowledged, what he

45:44

called encouragement. So after

45:47

marriage was over, he wanted to

45:49

find immediately another woman to encourage

45:51

him. And I think that

45:53

that's what happens in these couples. You can

45:55

have a deeply brilliant woman and her

45:58

support internationally. That's funny and

46:01

psychologically is what allows the man in

46:03

his case survive as he did to

46:05

me. Well, I mean stays. Yes,

46:09

Well, potentially took. That is because

46:11

this is the. Main ah

46:13

of suspense and such as

46:15

it is in life Them.

46:18

However, as

46:20

Eileen. When. I

46:22

got married. Over that

46:24

as they thought they'd although read her

46:26

friend saying the got Married in that.

46:29

Search. In Wellington with his traditional and

46:31

the consume and he said that there's a

46:33

killer the list of hey. So

46:36

that was a to at all. Obviously

46:38

Eileen as has only the catch is

46:40

often as the wedding and and she

46:42

has had a chat with the thicker

46:44

and said. Listen to Strike a

46:46

Day on the South as he starts off

46:48

as a woman with this. Brilliant.

46:50

Mind and Oxford degree and

46:52

assessed radical after the editing

46:55

genius that would come to

46:57

define the marriage was to

46:59

delete. A base. wonderful. The

47:01

end. Of her life,

47:03

she's thirty nine, excess,

47:05

nineteen, forty four in

47:07

London, and a half

47:10

caste adopted. Or she's

47:12

alone. Actually, this baby

47:14

boy bitches and and

47:16

although decides. He wants to go

47:18

us am and have a look at. It

47:22

the into little with the war, the collapse

47:24

of Europe as is when the baby's am

47:26

almost. A year old and so he

47:28

goes off. He knows I Lane is

47:31

very los on well she has some

47:33

his head. With a know

47:35

exactly but it looks I am

47:37

endometriosis bat. Mass.

47:39

A. Lot and her nice at this

47:41

point is cuts and cancerous tumors

47:43

and her uterus and she needs

47:45

to have an operation. That

47:48

although cause of leaving her with

47:50

a baby ah and very ill.

47:52

before he left she had collapsed

47:55

bleeding on the ground in London

47:57

and so and so he just

47:59

goes. And she has to organize

48:01

with her sister nor his a

48:03

doctor who was helping an operation to

48:06

remove these tumors. and she does that

48:08

Some of the last places she writes

48:10

to allow she is organizing his life

48:13

the last of the baby her will

48:15

ah who will look after the baby

48:17

in event that. Oh well, his

48:20

to that lytic had not very well in

48:22

the event that he dies first or she

48:24

dies first on the operating table. And

48:27

she wrote to him one of

48:29

the most tragic lines I think

48:32

I've ever read. path way she

48:34

says. It is

48:36

almost sort of self deprecation

48:38

taken to an unholy is.

48:41

An extent he says am just

48:43

deciding between the present in London.

48:47

She's she weighs forty five kilos and operation

48:49

in london with such as want to set

48:51

her up and. Says

48:53

before she goes under the knife or

48:56

up in youth hostel in the northwest

48:58

he is and she says we're just

49:00

going to be cheaper. And. She has

49:02

supported them. Her family has more money than

49:04

he she has made. That

49:06

if of is to his to. Control.

49:10

And she writes to him. You know the thing

49:12

about this is I really don't. Think and with

49:14

the money. You

49:18

know could very few Rise is

49:20

hop on that was soon to

49:22

the moon. I mean to transgress

49:25

Shakespearean depends you know will be

49:27

him. As a result of my

49:29

encounter, our encounter with your book

49:32

A will never mean the same

49:34

thing. You're good. To

49:37

know I feel very bad about

49:39

that because I think to work.

49:42

Remains as valuable as as I,

49:44

as important as as. If not

49:46

more. And I feel so myself when

49:48

I read something that means a great

49:50

deal. To. Me I want

49:52

to rip the rise of

49:55

that to be as wonderful.

49:57

To be worthy of having moved me so much

49:59

as. In In had me in his

50:01

infinite way. It means so much to

50:04

me. I admire them so much. I

50:06

want them to be this hero that

50:08

no one not all. well, probably not

50:10

Shakespeare and. And most definitely

50:12

Not me. Is. That

50:15

it because right is right out

50:17

of their flaws as well as

50:19

desert. She's obviously so I distinctly

50:21

need to use a bit of

50:23

doublethink and hold the work and

50:25

the man her at and the

50:27

Man and the Life and the

50:30

Wife in our minds at. The. Same.

50:33

Time person rent. One

50:38

hopes. To restore

50:40

it's go on a different your

50:42

to boob costars he bus and.

50:46

Or new. Much acclaim including

50:48

the Samuel Johnson products from

50:50

a non fiction and I

50:52

hear rumors that a may

50:54

soon be your home screen.

50:57

Yes, I have sacked. I

50:59

don't think so imminently that

51:02

Ten. Yes, it's been turned

51:04

into a television series And

51:06

it's and Australians British says

51:08

see saw Us policy And

51:10

and you can an American

51:12

company called whip spend ten

51:14

into seriously sea grass at.

51:16

Unbelievable. Good

51:18

fortune of having Elizabeth

51:20

to be Keep playing

51:22

in it and your

51:24

exec producer I am

51:26

full! Congratulations again Snow

51:29

if you weren't busy

51:31

and love your also

51:33

speaking and an international

51:35

conference about artificial intelligence

51:37

and.predicts. Yes, Ah,

51:39

about which I know extraordinarily

51:41

settle that I was asked.

51:43

This is an amazing organization

51:46

Run out of Washington, is

51:48

eighty thousand members and they

51:50

comprise people who are. Responsible

51:53

in big companies. And

51:55

Google, Microsoft Banks, and so

51:58

on for ah, managing. vast

52:00

amounts of data within the

52:02

privacy protection regimes of the

52:04

countries that they operate in. The

52:08

International Association of Privacy Professionals run conferences

52:10

all over the world where these people

52:12

get together to inform themselves of the

52:14

latest in privacy protection. And

52:18

they asked me, I guess, to

52:20

speak. And I think that they asked me to

52:22

speak partly because on the basis of Stasi land,

52:25

I'm in a strange position of having

52:27

walked into a room full

52:30

of sacks of the

52:33

shredded and hand-ripped remains of Stasi

52:35

files that the Stasi had kept

52:37

on people. So these stolen

52:39

biographies. And that

52:42

was a physical representation in a way

52:44

of what you

52:46

can see after the demise of a

52:48

surveillance regime. Now we can't see any

52:51

physical representation of the data that's kept on us.

52:53

But I think they wanted me to tell a

52:55

few stories about a

52:57

koala stamp to you to add to your

52:59

pile of honors. It's been

53:02

a great privilege to have you here, Anna.

53:05

My guest is Anna

53:07

Funder, whose exceptional book,

53:09

Wifedom, has been long

53:11

listed for the inaugural Women's

53:13

Prize for Nonfiction. And

53:15

Anna, let me remind

53:17

you, is appearing at

53:20

the upcoming Sydney Writers

53:22

Festival. Thanks, Anna. Such

53:24

an honor, Philip. Thank you. On

53:27

our next, we will welcome back

53:29

Viet Thanh Nguyen, the

53:32

Pulitzer Prize winning author, has

53:34

now written a memoir of his

53:36

life as a refugee. You've

53:55

been listening

53:57

to an ABC podcast. Discover

54:00

More Grey A B C Podcasts,

54:02

live radio and. Exclusives on the

54:04

A B C listened amp.