0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts,

0:02

radio, news, music

0:04

and more. Welcome

0:29

back beloved listeners to Late Night Live

0:31

coming to you from Gadigal country and

0:33

as of the first night

0:36

of the week it seems appropriate that

0:38

my two guests are both first ladies.

0:41

Coming up in just a moment Laura

0:44

Tingle who of course is first lady

0:46

at the ABC and then

0:48

I'll reintroduce you to Kirsty Sword

0:50

Guzmau who was a

0:52

first lady of Timor-Leste. Laura

0:55

welcome back you have been sorely

0:57

missed and let's start

0:59

by heading to Tasmania. What's been

1:02

going on down there? Good

1:05

question Philip, good question. They've had

1:07

a state election and

1:11

look why they were having

1:14

it is sort of probably lost

1:16

on a lot of people including

1:18

me but essentially people kept leaving

1:20

the Liberal government that

1:22

was in there and it was

1:25

becoming pretty impossible for the

1:27

Premier Jeremy Rockliffe to govern

1:30

in his own right so he decided

1:32

to call a snap election and seek

1:34

a majority government and has singularly

1:36

failed in that but having

1:38

said that, Labour's failed even more. It's got

1:40

10 seats out of

1:42

the 35 by the looks of things and

1:45

the Liberals have got 13 or 14 and they need

1:49

18 to govern in their own right which

1:51

means that either

1:54

the Greens and or Jackie Lambie's

1:57

network Will hold the balance

1:59

of power. and will have to negotiate

2:01

with the two parties. That primarily with

2:03

the liberals to for some some sort

2:05

of government. But it's it's not good

2:07

because it's none of them like each

2:09

other. So up. Or

2:12

talked and talked about Brown. He

2:14

beats Rees reboot cause the Greens

2:16

did Will. The green

2:18

said well, but said you know they.

2:21

The I can see them. For me a totally

2:23

smith The Liberals I don't know how can. They.

2:26

That some smooth labor could live with

2:28

could of course have a coalition with

2:30

them, but they refused to do so

2:33

says on a couple of occasions send

2:35

our I think I'm pretty sure. I

2:37

said the Labour leader essentially say the

2:40

same again. Ah, last week as in

2:42

an innate we what won't put anybody

2:44

and cabinet you'd basically eaten during our

2:47

government if you agree with our policies

2:49

are so it's it's it's it's it's

2:51

a shambles and it's estate that needs

2:54

and good government at the Man and

2:56

and looks pretty unlikely to get it.

2:59

But do pretty well. that's the

3:01

Greens did pretty well. My by

3:03

election in are so strange. Said.

3:07

Do will enter a byelection south

3:09

Australian adequacy seat of on the

3:11

former Liberal leader Stephen Marshall and

3:13

our labor with exultant because it

3:15

won the seat from the liberals

3:18

but in fact latest primary that

3:20

it went backwards there are end

3:22

our it basically song ham on

3:24

a very big swings the greens

3:26

so I mean I think this

3:28

are many rebate. On

3:31

top of Cinnabar. Like since we saw

3:33

in Queensland a couple of weeks

3:35

ago. Lock everybody saying all this

3:37

is all very bad saliva which

3:39

is sort of true. Ah but

3:41

I mean I think the the

3:43

really interesting thing out of all

3:45

of this is that the greens

3:47

and Jackie, Lambie and and these

3:49

minor parties arms is this as

3:51

shown themselves to be much better

3:53

at. at campaigning

3:55

and organizing themselves the got

3:58

grassroots support So

4:00

I think one way I'd have, you

4:02

know, these are structural changes. I think social

4:05

media is sort of, shall we say, as

4:07

they say in economics, sort of pulling down

4:11

the barriers to entry in politics to some

4:13

degree. And I think, you

4:15

know, we have to understand politics is going to be

4:17

different and not just focus on what it means to

4:19

the major parties. How would Detective

4:21

Dutton be feeling? Well,

4:25

I suppose, you know, people always

4:27

sort of see the best out of all of these things.

4:30

So at least there's a prospect

4:32

of one Liberal government being in office

4:34

around the country as a result

4:36

of this, given that the

4:38

Liberals have a better chance of

4:41

forming a government with the minor

4:43

parties than Labour does, just on the

4:45

numbers. But,

4:48

you know, and they might be a bit

4:50

exultant after the Queensland by-elections,

4:53

because, you know, that looks pretty bad

4:55

for Labour up there, certainly on a

4:58

state level. But I think it

5:00

doesn't, you know, as I

5:02

said, the resulting

5:05

Adelaide would not have given them any cause for comfort

5:07

at all. Let's pop back into

5:09

the bubble. What kind of Labour will be

5:12

making their submission on

5:14

wages to the Fair Work Commission on

5:17

Thursday? And they may

5:19

be changing their pitch. Well,

5:22

they're sort of keeping their pitch, well,

5:24

they're saying they're keeping their pitch the

5:26

same as it was for the last

5:28

two goes, which is essentially that people

5:30

on the lowest wages should be able

5:32

to get a real wage

5:35

increase. So that's

5:37

pretty good. But it's

5:39

quite interesting watching the

5:41

Treasurer sort of starting to change his

5:43

rhetoric ahead of the budget. We've only got a

5:45

few more days of Parliament before it rises

5:47

and then breaks until the budget

5:50

on the 14th of May. And

5:53

we've had this sort of

5:55

cycle from Jim Chalmers, you

5:57

know, which is all very resolute The

6:00

backing the Reserve Bank on fighting inflation

6:02

and now it's sort of scenes signs

6:04

that inflation starting to fall. We don't

6:06

know what it's falling. Fast. Enough or not,

6:09

Or whatever. And then Tim Thomas was

6:11

warning when he was or the season.

6:13

Maybe we're going to start seeing bad

6:15

numbers. We had to stop thinking about

6:18

grows and in the national accounts came

6:20

out and on the economy was still

6:22

registering a pulse. it wasn't going backwards

6:24

so now he's meeting at it further

6:27

along the Am trajectory and actually sir

6:29

talking up the positive still at which

6:31

is saying we got this unusual try

6:33

sectors. Of moderating in session

6:36

and real wages growing and

6:38

unemployment sort of doing okay.

6:40

As well says all of those messages the

6:42

changing and he's also sort of Saudi to

6:45

talk about productivity to appease the business sector

6:47

so he can see him trying out all

6:49

his lines ahead of. A budget

6:51

has a geezer perform. we

6:54

will not. Humans are likud

6:56

Chalmers squats impressive. Now let

6:58

me move on to ructions

7:01

to my different binge over

7:03

a tweak to we're Screwed

7:06

Is Environmental moves. Ban

7:09

a book. This is one of

7:11

those things, which is, as they

7:13

say, almost too complicated to explain.

7:15

But essentially this goes to. A

7:19

consultation process is particularly with first

7:21

nations people about offshore guess ah

7:24

exploration and drilling, which is mainly

7:26

something that occurs in the Northern

7:28

Territory in Western Australia. End of

7:30

the the crossbench is very cross

7:33

about the Scylla, partly because and

7:35

it's all about who gets consulted

7:37

and who. Gets a say

7:39

in approving all these processes.

7:41

You know is that the

7:43

Resources Minister is it to

7:46

the Environment minister. Now I'm

7:48

that There was a brief

7:50

for the crossbench last week

7:52

about some legislation which. It

7:54

sort of looks hotbed of smoking

7:56

in his new Provisions for This

7:58

and Fitness tweets. To basically

8:00

gives much to the powder, the resources. Minister.

8:04

And. Are there was all

8:06

sorts of add know brouhaha

8:08

about this largely because the

8:10

resources minister then wins. Out

8:12

in the press in Western Australia

8:14

and was crowing about is great

8:16

when. So the mining industry which may

8:18

not a therapist and wisest. Thing Zuko that

8:21

tipped a whole heap of people. Often I got very

8:23

costs. So anyway they was am

8:25

the the crossbench is very upset

8:27

that the government's trying to push

8:29

this through before Easter. And.

8:32

Daddy has been some tweaks to get

8:34

the environment minister back into the process

8:37

but I saw as I can say

8:39

it's not all to the crossbench dissatisfaction.

8:41

So and know to the Greens org

8:44

it will fight. When I say crossbench,

8:46

fill up on I'm talking the broad

8:48

churches across state so I'm in the

8:50

grains as well. Okay how's who? Use

8:53

the gum and crumbling to boot? Ah

8:57

look I think it's it's it's been

8:59

a weed couple of weeks and I

9:01

I just feel like that's. Sort of

9:03

lost momentum. And this this this

9:06

been is bizarre thing about religious

9:08

discrimination which seems to been posted

9:10

up the flagpole basically to see

9:12

one say to kill it off

9:14

i'm a dancer the since it

9:16

is great integrate appetite for it

9:18

from the government they've sort of

9:21

seat will with got this legislation

9:23

that we're only gonna move through

9:25

with. The coalition supports it and

9:27

it's not about am the churches

9:29

right to. Hire

9:31

or fire people based on they they're his.

9:34

Sexuality or any other things that

9:36

might not accord with the teachings

9:38

of what in particular church is

9:40

involved, but it's about whether they

9:42

can be fired. or not which

9:44

are going to say or hands

9:46

a little odd since we're having

9:49

a move to go after prolonged

9:51

absence and it's tune before and

9:53

it's good to moink boujis the

9:55

as you bozeman looks good deed

9:58

code something he said Secret

10:01

offences do not exist

10:03

to prevent wrongdoing being

10:06

uncovered. I've read it ten

10:08

times and can't make head or tail of it. I

10:11

think that makes two of us, Philip.

10:13

Essentially, this is about we have got

10:16

more secrecy legislation than

10:18

almost any democracy in the world. And

10:22

so the inspector general of such legislation

10:24

has sort of said, well, you don't

10:26

want to have so much secrecy legislation

10:29

that you're actually undermining the

10:31

very nature of democracy. So there's a

10:33

hearing going on at the moment into

10:36

these issues. And Mike Bue just turned

10:38

up today and said a few things like

10:40

that. And I think we have

10:42

to leave it to the listeners to work it out. But of course,

10:44

I've got no idea what he means either. OK,

10:47

now I have to tell

10:49

the listener that the

10:51

First Lady of Haren, indeed the

10:54

First Lady of the ABC, will

10:57

be giving the John Button oration at

10:59

the Melbourne Writers Festival. John

11:01

was an old friend of mine and I'm

11:03

very pleased that you will be remembering him.

11:06

I know the speech is not about John.

11:09

It's about the national

11:11

debate deteriorating. It

11:14

is and about lack of civility and all those

11:16

things. But I think one has to reflect

11:19

on John Button in those terms

11:22

because he was able

11:24

to be incredibly effective both in terms

11:26

of his influence within the Labor Party,

11:29

particularly the Victorian Labor Party, which of

11:31

course was deeply divided back in the

11:33

day, back in his day. And

11:36

as a minister in the

11:38

Hawke government and he was

11:40

able to do it very civilly and with wonderful

11:44

self-deprecation and absolutely

11:47

charming humor. Button,

11:49

Button by name, but he bestrode

11:51

the world of politics like

11:54

a colossus. Laura, it's great to have

11:56

you back. That's the lovely Laura Tingle

11:58

and this is Ellie Nell. and from

12:00

one First Lady to the next. Coming

12:03

up, Kirsty Sword-Gusmar.

12:30

The World's Greatest Program The

12:32

World's Greatest Program The World's

12:34

Greatest Program The World's Greatest

12:36

Program The World's Greatest Program

12:40

The World's Greatest Program This

12:43

program and this ancient

12:45

broadcaster is a

12:47

very long and, I must say, proud

12:49

association with Timor Leste.

12:52

I think we did some of our greatest

12:55

programs when visiting that

12:57

country and Greg Shackleton,

12:59

who was to die at Bellaboe, was

13:02

a personal friend. It

13:07

was on one of those trips that I first

13:09

met Kirsty Sword-Gusmar, whose

13:11

life has been marked

13:14

by the most astonishing, well,

13:17

cinematic twists and turns from

13:20

quiet childhood in regional

13:22

Victoria, the daughter of

13:24

two teachers, to rising

13:26

political activism, to clandestine work,

13:29

smuggling East Timorri's men to safety,

13:32

and even herself into a Jakarta

13:35

jail from falling in

13:37

love with an imprisoned resistance fighter

13:40

to becoming First Lady of Timor

13:42

Leste. The story goes on,

13:45

and we are going to share that story with

13:47

you now. But

13:49

to speak to you, Kirsty, directly

13:52

is a great pleasure, and it's been

13:54

too long. Kirsty

13:56

is a woman, I must say, who was untouched

13:59

by all the action. accolade she's received.

14:01

She's a woman still

14:03

deeply committed to making change and

14:05

is humble to the core. Now

14:08

living back in Australia and dividing

14:10

her time between two

14:12

nations, Kirsty is

14:14

the founder of the Alola Foundation,

14:17

which seeks to improve the lives

14:19

of women in East Timor. Kirsty,

14:22

great to be talking to you again. Thanks

14:25

so much for this invitation to

14:27

speak with you, Philip. Let's

14:30

go back to the beginning. You're born

14:32

in Melbourne, but you expect

14:34

your childhood, or much of

14:36

it in Bendigo. That's

14:39

right, yes. My

14:41

parents are both teachers, as you

14:43

pointed out, and my

14:46

father was deployed

14:49

as the principal of Eagle

14:52

Hawk Primary School in the

14:54

1970s. So we

14:56

had been living in Sandringham up until that

14:58

point. So we've made the move to regional

15:01

Victoria. And so indeed, I spent

15:03

a very big and influential chunk

15:06

of my childhood in

15:08

Bendigo and surrounds. In fact, that's

15:10

where I first started learning the

15:13

Indonesian language. Well, this is thanks to

15:15

your father and it was a fateful decision,

15:17

wasn't it? That's right.

15:19

Yes, I already knew a few words

15:21

of Indonesian at the tender age of

15:23

about four, because my father was studying

15:25

Indonesian at Wananesh Uni at that time,

15:29

doing night classes, and he would come home

15:31

and sort of practice some of his Indonesian.

15:34

So I knew a few words, by

15:37

Ksarda and Apakabara, when I was

15:40

a tiny tot. So it was sort of

15:42

like a bit of a a

15:45

very early introduction into what

15:48

sort of kicked off my

15:50

journey towards Timor-Leste, I guess.

15:52

Well, your journey included a

15:54

detour to the refugee studies

15:57

program at Oxford. That's

16:00

right, yes. I

16:03

had a team where his boyfriend

16:05

in the late 80s, early 90s,

16:08

who received a scholarship to study at

16:10

the Refugee Studies Program. So

16:12

I decided to join him and managed

16:16

to secure myself an

16:18

admin role at the Refugee Studies

16:20

Program. And

16:23

again, that was sort of interesting,

16:26

because much later, in fact,

16:28

in just recent years, I found

16:31

myself in a job for the Asylum

16:33

Seeker Resource Center here in Melbourne. And

16:38

yeah, so lots of kind of interesting

16:40

links. You became involved

16:42

in activism with the

16:45

Team Maurice clandestine movement.

16:48

And you adopted, I must

16:50

say, a pretty inept codename,

16:53

Ruby Blayte. Tell

16:56

me how that happened. Well,

17:00

anyone that was involved in supporting

17:02

the East Team Maurice resistance, particularly

17:05

if they were based in Indonesia

17:07

under Suharto, really needed

17:10

to adopt a codename, not only

17:12

to protect one's own identity, but

17:15

also to protect, in particular, the

17:18

Team Maurice members of that

17:20

clandestine movement who were

17:23

also a resident in Indonesia. So

17:25

I guess I'd

17:27

actually adopted the codename

17:30

Ruby Blayte when I was writing

17:33

for a Melbourne-based

17:35

magazine called Inside Indonesia in the

17:37

1980s. And

17:41

you know, Blayte, Sword, I

17:43

mean, that kind of makes sense. I think

17:45

I added the Ruby because I thought it

17:48

sounded Agatha Christie-like. And

17:50

yes. And

17:53

through your work teaching,

17:55

you began meeting students

17:57

involved in the pro-Indonesian

18:00

movement? Well,

18:02

when I was at Melbourne University, actually,

18:04

I already met with a number of teamery

18:08

dissidents who'd been forced to

18:10

flee their country.

18:12

And as

18:14

a student of Indonesian, you know, I

18:16

guess I first started

18:18

studying Indonesian at

18:21

Melbourne University and then later went on to

18:23

Monash, but it was quite a conservative department.

18:26

And there was not a lot of talk

18:28

about politics. So I really was

18:31

not very au fait with what the

18:33

situation in East Tehma was. So I

18:35

was pretty horrified too, to learn that,

18:38

you know, not only had these

18:40

horrific human rights violations been going

18:43

on, on our

18:45

doorstep, but also with, you

18:47

know, the complicity of our own government

18:49

and a lot of other Western

18:51

governments. And

18:54

I know that you began translating

18:56

documents and smuggling them

18:58

into the prisons in

19:00

Jakarta. That's

19:03

right. So to sort of flip back

19:05

for a minute to my period at

19:07

Oxford Uni, while I was there,

19:12

a Yorkshire television producer called Peter Gordon came

19:14

up with the idea of making a film

19:16

in Tehma or L'Este. And

19:19

I was probably, you

19:22

know, pretty uniquely placed to

19:25

contribute to that film in that I

19:27

was probably about the only person

19:30

with number one prior experience of

19:32

travelling to East Tehma, but also

19:35

with a combination of Indonesian and

19:37

Portuguese language skills. So I became

19:39

researcher and interpreter on that

19:41

film, which was called In Cold Blood.

19:45

And it was actually that

19:48

film production and

19:50

our cameraman, Max Stahl, who

19:53

ended up capturing the images of

19:55

the Santa Cruz massacre.

19:58

Absolutely essential image. Yeah,

20:01

so that was really a turning point for me.

20:03

I think that experience of working on that film

20:05

and dealing with the aftermath of that, of a

20:08

lot of the people we interviewed

20:11

having been gunned

20:13

down in that massacre, it really

20:15

galvanised my will to do

20:17

something much more actively

20:19

for Taimur. So

20:22

upon my return to Melbourne, I actually

20:24

up stumps and moved to Jakarta and

20:27

started working for a number of Indonesian

20:30

human rights NGOs, which

20:32

at that time were getting very

20:34

courageous in actually challenging the Suharto

20:36

regime. This was in the early

20:38

90s. And

20:41

of course, it was during that period

20:43

that I started corresponding with Shannan and

20:45

Gusmal and indeed

20:47

began smuggling both

20:50

his correspondence and interviews out of

20:52

the prison, but also helping to

20:54

smuggle in documents,

20:59

mini cassette recorder. We

21:02

got gradually more sophisticated in our

21:04

technology over time and that extended

21:06

to video cameras and eventually

21:08

a mobile phone. I

21:11

like the story of you dressing up

21:13

as an executive and pretending

21:15

to work for Revlon. That's

21:18

right. Yes, so

21:20

that was around about 1993, a

21:22

group of about seven youths who

21:25

were being persistently pursued by the

21:27

Indonesian military and could see no

21:30

future for themselves approached

21:33

me and asked whether I would help

21:35

them to seek political asylum

21:38

in a couple of

21:40

foreign embassies. And

21:42

so I took it upon myself

21:44

to help them to

21:46

gain access to the two embassies

21:49

concerned and that involved a

21:52

bit of a clever ruse of

21:54

me sort of posing as

21:56

an executive, charging in very

21:58

purposefully into the into

22:01

this corporate-style building where the two embassies were

22:03

housed and with the team where he's sort

22:05

of like a little gaggle

22:08

of chickens following behind me and

22:10

hopefully not attracting too much attention.

22:13

I must say I find it impossible

22:15

to imagine you as a Revlon executive,

22:18

but moving

22:20

on. From the

22:23

vantage point of this

22:26

year and being the

22:28

mother of three young blokes, what

22:30

do you think of this young woman

22:33

taking all sorts of risks for

22:35

a country other than her own?

22:40

Look, for me, it was,

22:42

you know, I had been brought up

22:44

to have a social conscience and

22:47

to be interested in the fate of

22:49

other nations, particularly in our region. And

22:52

for me, you know, as a young

22:55

woman living a very privileged

22:57

life in Jakarta, I mean,

23:00

I was protected by the fact that

23:02

most of the expat community in Indonesia

23:04

at that time was

23:06

singularly uninterested in politics or

23:08

in the fate of Indonesians,

23:12

let alone those in the

23:14

renegade provinces of Westpapa and

23:16

Timor-Leste and Aceh. So

23:19

I was able to kind of use that

23:21

to my benefit to, you

23:25

know, seem innocuous but actually get

23:27

away with doing a few mischievous

23:29

things. And it seemed to me

23:32

that it was a very

23:34

important way of, I

23:37

guess, redressing,

23:40

you know, that complicity I mentioned

23:43

earlier of the Australian. How

23:46

do you feel about the term

23:48

spy being applied to yourself? I

23:53

believe the term spy was actually

23:55

coined first by Andrew

23:57

Bolt. I

24:00

think he referred to me as something like

24:02

a glamour spy or something like that. Now,

24:04

I was never a spy. I

24:06

mean, Timor Leste didn't have a government,

24:08

not even a kind of government in

24:10

waiting or a shadow government. So,

24:12

you know, what I was was a human

24:15

rights activist who

24:17

was very concerned about the fate

24:19

of the Timorese people and particularly

24:21

concerned that my own government was

24:23

turning a blind eye. So,

24:26

the term spy is actually, you

24:29

know, totally inaccurate. Having

24:32

dealt with that, I want to go back to

24:35

the budding romance with a young

24:37

fellow serving a 20-year jail

24:40

term in Jakarta prison. You

24:43

begin teaching him English

24:45

by correspondence. That's

24:48

right. That's right. Shannana

24:53

was transferred to

24:55

Chibinung High Security Prison in

24:57

Jakarta soon after his capture

25:01

in 1992, which just coincidentally corresponded to the

25:03

period of three and a half years when

25:05

I was living and working

25:07

in Jakarta. I

25:10

was very close friends with one of

25:12

the other political prisoners that had been

25:14

serving a

25:17

sentence for peacefully protesting against the

25:19

Dili massacre. And

25:21

he was in Chibinung for quite a bit longer

25:23

than Shannana. I

25:26

knew him personally and was involved in

25:29

helping get medicines

25:32

and correspondence

25:34

to and from him from organizations

25:37

like Amnesty International that were closely

25:39

monitoring his situation and that of

25:41

the other political prisoners.

25:44

So, when Shannana was transferred to Chibinung and

25:46

he learned from his colleague, Joanne,

25:49

that there was a sympathetic Australian

25:51

in town being the resourceful leader

25:53

that he was, he

25:55

reached out to me himself and

25:58

started to enlist my help. with all

26:01

sorts of risky things like

26:04

faxing his letters to Bill Clinton,

26:07

to other leaders, his

26:09

interviews with John Pilger. So

26:11

there were many a hairy

26:13

moment of me turning up

26:16

at public telecommunications offices with

26:19

Shannana's letters in my hand, my hands shaking

26:21

as I handed over the letter to the

26:24

operator thinking, you know, is he going to

26:26

recognize the name on that signature

26:28

at the bottom of the letter and I'll

26:30

be suddenly surrounded by intelligence

26:32

agents and arrested. Fortunately

26:35

that didn't happen. So

26:39

over the course of, you know,

26:41

this correspondence and this support that

26:43

I was able to provide, indeed I did

26:46

teach him English and he would dutifully complete

26:50

exercises in a

26:52

book and send them out and I would, you know,

26:55

in good teacher style with my red pen.

26:58

Correct, he's English. It

27:01

has to be said that as well

27:03

as English he was very assiduous in

27:05

learning Bahasa Indonesia and

27:08

in fact he talks about that time

27:10

in prison as being, you know,

27:13

a kind of open university, sorry

27:15

a closed university, not an open

27:17

university. And a really important

27:19

thing in that sense he echoes

27:21

the situation of Mandela. That's

27:24

right, yes. So of course there

27:26

were a lot of Indonesian pro-democracy

27:29

activists that were imprisoned in

27:31

the same prison. So this

27:33

was a really important period

27:35

for Shannana in terms of his own growth,

27:39

of his own understanding about

27:41

Indonesian society and

27:43

about the,

27:46

you know, burgeoning pro-democracy

27:49

movement. So

27:51

a really, really important period.

27:54

I've got to ask you about

27:57

the photograph you've sent him of

27:59

yourself. a very strange photograph

28:01

and the painting you got in

28:03

return. Yes,

28:06

so I sent

28:09

in first

28:11

a photograph of myself into the prison

28:13

which was actually one that had been taken

28:16

from behind of me

28:18

looking at a

28:20

very picturesque scene of rice

28:23

patties somewhere in Java. And

28:26

the reason why I shared this particular photo

28:29

was that it was taken from behind. You

28:31

couldn't see my face. I had no idea

28:33

whether at that stage it

28:36

was likely that my letter would be intercepted

28:38

and that I might be recognised from

28:40

the photo. So it seemed

28:43

a safe one to share. But

28:46

a month

28:48

or so later I received from

28:51

Shilana a painting that he had done

28:53

in the prison which was of that

28:55

photograph. And

28:58

it was very beautifully executed.

29:03

And I took it upon

29:05

myself to actually take a photo of

29:07

myself looking at that painting. And this

29:10

gave rise then to what I later

29:12

referred to as a series of paintings

29:14

called the Tunnel of Time because

29:17

each year I took

29:19

a photo of the next

29:21

painting that came out and myself looking

29:23

at that. So it

29:26

became this tunnel over

29:28

the years and at one point

29:30

I remember wondering

29:34

how many repeat images

29:36

of myself in this painting would

29:39

feature in Shilana's paintings by the time

29:41

he was released from prison. Well

29:44

there was light at the end of that tunnel. I

29:46

have to ask. There was light at the end

29:48

of that tunnel indeed. Do

29:51

these images survive? They

29:54

do. In fact I'm in a bedroom now

29:56

in my house in Coburg and

30:00

one of those paintings, let me

30:02

just check actually, it's the second,

30:05

it's actually the first one in the series dated

30:08

August 1995 and so it's sitting above my bed and all the others

30:14

are very carefully stored

30:17

away too. When did

30:19

you finally meet in person? When

30:24

things began to change

30:28

at the sort of national and international

30:30

level for Timor, which was around about

30:33

1998, 1999

30:35

after the fall of Suharto, when

30:38

President Habibi announced

30:41

that Timor-Leste would finally have

30:43

a chance to decide

30:46

its own fate through

30:48

a popular consultation or referendum.

30:52

So it was pretty clear to the

30:54

Indonesian government that Shenan was going to

30:56

play an important role in that whole

30:58

transition. So

31:01

they started to become a

31:03

little bit more lenient in terms of who

31:05

he was able to meet up with in

31:07

prison. So a number

31:10

of international officials, including UN

31:12

officials, were allowed to visit him

31:15

and I was also able to

31:17

get into the prison. So

31:20

that was in around 1998, 1999. However,

31:24

a couple of years prior

31:27

to that I did actually manage to secrete

31:29

myself into the prison posing

31:32

as a member of a group

31:34

of Indonesian Christmas well-wishers.

31:38

A master of

31:41

disguise, one minute

31:43

a Revlon executive, heavens

31:46

above. But

31:48

it must have been very difficult

31:50

for you both because when you'd

31:53

leave you couldn't know whether you'd

31:55

see each other again. Again, that's

31:57

right, exactly right. Yeah,

32:00

and particularly after that initial

32:03

Christmas visit, I

32:06

knew that that was very much a one off.

32:08

And very shortly after that visit, I

32:10

was actually blackbanned from Indonesia for

32:13

helping to organize a big

32:15

protest action in Jakarta to

32:18

commemorate the 20th anniversary of

32:20

the Indonesian invasion in 1995.

32:23

Now you'd first visited Timor in

32:26

1990, a

32:28

decade before independence. What was the

32:30

place like? What were your first

32:32

impressions then? Oh, look,

32:37

it was a place of fear

32:40

and palpable oppression.

32:44

There were hardly any foreign or

32:47

even Indonesian visitors actually traveling to

32:50

what was known as Timor Timor

32:52

at that stage. So as a

32:55

foreigner, you stood out like a

32:57

sore thumb, which meant that the

32:59

Indonesians were attracted to

33:01

you like flies, particularly the intelligence.

33:05

It also meant that the Timorese were

33:09

very much wanting to

33:12

talk, but

33:14

they could really only do that under the cover

33:17

of darkness or at great

33:20

personal risk. But at least

33:22

that oppression gave them a

33:25

sense of unity. That's

33:27

true, yeah. And there's a lot

33:30

of talk these days amongst people

33:33

that were very active in

33:35

the resistance movement at that

33:37

time about how, whilst they were

33:41

terribly difficult, dark days

33:44

for Timor, there was

33:46

this sense of a unified purpose.

33:51

And I guess that's a little

33:53

bit harder to maintain in a

33:56

post-independence era. A lot of the young

33:58

people who make up the vast majority of the time, majority

34:00

of the population don't have those

34:02

experiences that their parents had.

34:05

They don't have a very deep

34:07

knowledge of the troubles

34:09

that the country went through and the terrible

34:12

hardship and sacrifices of their

34:15

parents. So through

34:19

my work currently in the Ministry

34:21

of Education, we're making sure that

34:23

in the curriculum there's a lot

34:25

of telling of stories about that

34:27

time for people to

34:29

understand the

34:33

historic legacy and the

34:35

importance of that struggle. I want

34:37

to circle back to your work

34:39

with that Ministry shortly, but let

34:42

me remind the listener, we

34:44

have the pleasure and the privilege

34:46

of hearing the voice of Kirsty

34:48

Sword-Gusmau, former First Lady

34:50

of East Torymoor and yes, founder

34:53

of the Alola

34:55

Foundation. So the country

34:57

gains independence, Janana

34:59

becomes president and

35:01

you became First Lady. If you're

35:03

uneasy about the term spy,

35:06

how did the First Lady

35:08

hat fit? Yeah,

35:12

well, look, I mean, obviously, you

35:15

know, it sounds like a very lofty, influential

35:18

kind of term. I mean, the challenge

35:21

for me was I didn't have

35:23

a predecessor. There was no one else who had

35:25

been in that role. So I kind of had

35:27

to carve that role out for myself. And

35:31

I wasn't much interested in playing the

35:33

traditional role of First Lady, which was

35:35

sort of entertaining the wives of ambassadors

35:37

when they presented their credentials to the

35:39

president. That seemed like a huge

35:42

waste of time to me. So

35:45

I decided that

35:47

establishing a women's

35:49

organisation and attempting

35:52

to raise the profile

35:54

of women and the status of

35:57

women with a much better use.

36:00

of my time and energy. So I established

36:02

the Alola Foundation in 2001 actually prior to

36:06

independence and prior even to becoming First

36:08

Lady. And that became my passion and

36:11

my mission in

36:16

the ensuing years. In

36:18

introducing you, I was talking about

36:20

the program's long association with

36:23

Timor Leste and I neglected

36:25

to remind the listeners

36:27

that Ramos Horta was a regular

36:29

on the program during the long

36:32

years when he was couch surfing

36:34

around the world, you know,

36:36

trying to get support. And

36:38

I must say, I never

36:41

imagined that victory would

36:43

ever occur. Great to

36:45

be corrected by events.

36:48

But I'd forgotten about

36:50

the assassination attempt on

36:52

both Ramos Horta and

36:55

Shannana. Where were you that morning?

36:59

So at that time, Shannana and

37:01

my boys were living 10 kilometres

37:04

south of Delhi in a beautiful

37:07

hilltop village called

37:10

Baliba in

37:13

a home that we had been living in,

37:15

you know, for a number of years. And

37:20

I was sort of getting the

37:22

boys ready to go down to Delhi to

37:24

go to school and preschool.

37:27

They were quite tiny at that point. Shannana

37:32

received the

37:34

news that Jose

37:37

Ramos Horta, who was president at

37:40

that time, that there

37:43

had been an attempt on his life. And

37:45

the advice to Shannana was to stay put.

37:48

Shannana being Shannana, decided that he needed

37:50

to go immediately to Delhi to find

37:52

out more details

37:54

for himself. So jumped into his

37:57

car with his

37:59

convoy of the vehicles and took

38:01

off down to Dilly. Shortly

38:05

after one of the local

38:08

bodyguards, one of the

38:10

members of the Tamarays Police Force,

38:12

who was sort of part of

38:14

my own security detail, informed

38:18

me that our

38:20

house was surrounded by rebel

38:23

soldiers. I

38:26

of course had no idea what to

38:28

expect. But being rather than... You

38:31

did expect a hail of bullets, didn't you?

38:33

Well, that wouldn't have been

38:36

entirely beyond the realm of possibility. So

38:40

I got my children sort of under

38:42

the bed in my bedroom and

38:44

unfortunately they were able to be

38:47

entertained by a game on my

38:49

mobile phone. I didn't want to

38:51

alarm them too much, obviously.

38:54

And it

38:57

was sort of quite a hairy couple

38:59

of hours. Fortunately, due to the excellent

39:02

negotiation skills of my Tamarays

39:05

bodyguards, the UN civilian

39:07

police that were kind of also present

39:09

on that day proved to

39:11

be fairly useless. But my Tamarays

39:13

bodyguards managed to negotiate with the

39:17

rebel soldier

39:21

who was sort of there

39:24

perched on the hill behind our house. And

39:27

fortunately we were able to be

39:29

successfully evacuated from the home down

39:31

to Dilly without incident. But

39:33

it certainly was a fairly

39:36

scary day. Now

39:39

it's time to focus on the

39:41

life and achievements of the Alola

39:44

Foundation, which as you pointed

39:46

out you founded way back

39:48

in 2001 and it

39:50

was seeking to address the systemic

39:53

problems affecting women

39:55

in each team. How

39:57

has your work with the Foundation?

40:00

changed over time?

40:02

Well when I started

40:05

Alola it was in

40:07

response to the situation of

40:09

a mother called

40:12

Maria who approached me

40:15

about the situation of her daughter who

40:18

at 15 had been kidnapped by a

40:20

militia leader and taken across

40:22

the border to West Timor as a

40:24

kind of war trophy and

40:26

I had just become a mum myself so when

40:28

I heard this story I was very moved

40:31

by it and also moved to

40:33

try and do something to

40:36

have her reunited with her

40:38

daughter. She'd

40:40

also just lost her 13-year-old son

40:42

in militia

40:44

attack on the

40:47

church in Swah

40:50

on the south coast of Timor-Leste

40:52

so she suddenly found

40:54

herself childless and

40:58

so I undertook to

41:00

take Juliana

41:03

de Santos's aunt to

41:05

Geneva to the Human

41:07

Rights Commission to testify

41:09

which we did. The

41:12

experience of sort of advocating for

41:14

Juliana's case really opened my

41:16

eyes to the fact that there were

41:18

many Julianas across Timor-Leste and very many

41:21

women who had experienced sexual

41:23

and gender-based violence during

41:26

that conflict period but who were

41:28

also experiencing violence in their daily

41:31

lives so I decided to

41:34

set up a foundation and to name it

41:36

after Juliana whose nickname

41:38

was Alola and

41:40

at that stage we were a

41:43

tiny organization staffed entirely by

41:45

volunteers. We had a little

41:48

tiny office the size of a broom cupboard

41:51

at the rear of the World Bank.

41:54

No money, we sourced all our

41:56

money from sort of private donations from private

41:59

individuals and the initially. And

42:01

then over time, the organisation

42:04

grew in the scope of its work from sort

42:07

of being mainly focused on

42:09

advocacy and, you

42:13

know, women's rights to

42:15

maternal and child health, education

42:19

and economic empowerment. So those are

42:22

still the four pillars of the

42:25

organisation. And sort of how they became

42:28

integrated into the work of the Lola

42:30

was sort of a process that went

42:33

parallel with my own life journey. So

42:35

it was when I was breastfeeding my

42:38

children, often in public,

42:40

that I was approached by UNICEF to see

42:43

whether I would help

42:45

to promote their baby friendly hospital

42:47

initiative at Dilean National Hospital.

42:50

And I said to them I would go

42:53

one better and actually establish the first National

42:55

Breastfeeding Association of East Timor, which I did

42:57

and which later... You are unstoppable

43:00

Kirsty. So

43:02

this morphed into the Maternal and Child Health Program

43:05

at a Lola, which is still growing strong today,

43:07

and which now, since my own brush

43:09

with breast cancer in 2013, now integrates

43:11

also a women's cancer

43:16

education program. Now

43:18

you mentioned your work with the Ministry of

43:20

Education. We've got a lot of ground to

43:22

cover in so little time, but just

43:25

tell me briefly about the work with

43:27

languages because along with the official

43:30

languages, there are

43:32

17 indigenous languages

43:34

across the country. Yes,

43:36

indeed. It's a very multilingual

43:38

landscape, which is often painted

43:41

as being tremendously talented,

43:44

challenging, and difficult from

43:46

an education perspective. But

43:50

I see it also as

43:52

a great richness That

43:55

Timor-Vesti has. I mean, most people speak

43:57

at least three or four languages, which

43:59

puts... Monolingual Australia and

44:02

seventy other Western nations same

44:04

am. But the

44:06

reality is that a lot of

44:09

kids, particularly in rural areas I'm

44:11

grow up not speaking either of

44:13

the official languages which had hit

44:16

some and Portuguese sorry this is

44:18

presents a huge barrier when they

44:20

stopped school. Because.

44:24

Language of instruction being principally

44:26

tatelman Portuguese. It means it's very difficult

44:28

for them to learn to. Read and write.

44:31

And of course, numeracy. And with to

44:33

see it so that the basic. Building

44:35

blocks of. Education. So

44:38

in twenty twelve I started

44:40

up a mother tongue base

44:42

multilingual education pilot program. Which

44:45

is still going to Die And Which. Through

44:47

I'm a range of. Sort

44:49

of evaluate his activities of shine very

44:52

clearly that kids are learning not only

44:54

to read and write and their mother

44:56

tongue quicker but they are learning. To

44:58

transfer those skills very effectively

45:01

to Tatum and put to

45:03

gaze mars around Mood will

45:06

see any number of democracies.

45:12

Something the womb ballooned from

45:14

too modest. story. Oh

45:17

absolutely. I think I'm the

45:20

less and the set time

45:22

or has to teach the

45:24

world, particularly in terms of

45:27

reconciliation and sickness. Ah huge.

45:31

I'm wondering how and veggies because

45:33

of course we must Going South

45:36

Africa me with truth and reconciliation

45:38

and there's been much talk about

45:41

being a pickle ball to

45:43

the first motions of experience in

45:45

the screws put it is tell

45:47

me why you see good to

45:50

so so effective. look

45:54

i think of in there was

45:56

obviously a truth and reconciliation commission

45:58

and a process that that was sort of

46:01

not dissimilar to that that

46:04

was undertaken in

46:06

South Africa, that I think

46:10

helped to relieve

46:12

a lot of the suffering

46:15

of people, you know, not people

46:17

who had experienced serious crimes,

46:19

but there were a lot of petty crimes committed

46:23

in the course of that year in

46:25

1999 and following and, you know,

46:28

a lot of unsettled grievances. So that process

46:30

really helped I think to restore

46:32

peace and

46:36

stability. But

46:38

I think also, you know,

46:40

the leadership of Timor, Shenanah

46:43

and Jose Ramos-Horta in particular,

46:46

you know, actively pursuing reconciliation

46:50

with Indonesia. I

46:52

remember being absolutely gobsmacked by that.

46:55

Yes. And of course, they came under

46:57

a lot of criticism too, for

47:00

having let a lot of Indonesian

47:02

generals off the hook. But

47:04

I think it needs to be remembered that,

47:06

you know, Timor-Leste shares a land border with

47:08

Indonesia. It's absolutely vital to its future

47:10

peace and security that

47:13

it has the best possible political

47:15

and economic relations with

47:18

Indonesia. And I

47:20

think the most remarkable thing is that

47:23

ordinary Timorese don't harbour

47:25

any resentment or anger

47:28

towards ordinary Indonesian

47:30

people. You

47:33

know, and there's a, you never

47:35

hear of cases of violence

47:37

against Indonesians of which, you

47:39

know, there are many Indonesians

47:41

doing business, working

47:44

in a whole range of different roles. I

47:47

was surprised by that when visiting Delhi

47:50

that there was a

47:52

degree of cordiality. Now, let's

47:54

look at that cordiality. The

47:56

recent election In Indonesia has at

47:58

least added a lot of support. The

48:00

an extra element of

48:02

complexity to teemu Indonesian

48:04

relationships given the yes

48:06

the a the identity

48:08

of the president elect.

48:12

Yes indeed. erm look I'd

48:15

add you know I personally

48:17

has some says strong feelings

48:19

about Ten Pro Bowl and

48:21

that his background and role

48:23

in in team or less

48:25

states and I know that

48:27

senator Joseph Ramos Horta don't

48:30

feel that he's ah election

48:32

to the top job is

48:34

going to adversely affect am

48:36

bilateral relations. I. Personally,

48:38

because I had so many wonderful

48:41

friends and so many connections to

48:43

Indonesia. You

48:45

know I have some graves. See

48:48

is for for the future of

48:50

Indonesia and for human rights in

48:52

in Indonesia. But.

48:55

I guess. Time. Will tell

48:57

this is a dentist. A

48:59

choice that was made by

49:01

by the intonation. Paypal ends.

49:04

I'm. You know you

49:06

are. It hopes that it doesn't

49:08

adversely affect you. Know all of

49:10

says the games. That have been

49:12

made since. Suharto's downfall in terms

49:14

of keynote democracy and and human

49:17

rights before we're gonna wind up

49:19

to have been reports of to

49:21

to Move for. Fiscal

49:24

cliff in the coming decade.

49:26

much anticipated sunrise gas fields

49:29

of course that reminds on

49:31

result not wrong March destroyed

49:33

deployed as a good may

49:36

be having been so to

49:38

bed my book in the

49:40

recent post. Well

49:43

look I think I'm You

49:45

know Israeli is a investing

49:47

a lot in aid and

49:50

development. Programs. And

49:52

I think I'm continuing down that

49:54

path is a good way of

49:56

repaying the dead of Bonus to

49:58

to tame all that. Dates back

50:00

to the Second World war. I

50:03

think you know it's not only

50:05

up to the Israeli government but

50:08

I think Australian people t to

50:10

do as much as I can

50:12

to support him unless they and

50:14

they are doing that. I was

50:16

speaking at a conference of and

50:18

Net and Network of Friendship Association

50:20

said have existed for you know

50:23

since. Well. As

50:25

Brand about the time of

50:27

independence said As and partnering

50:29

with villages and and different

50:31

communities and supporting I'm Tables

50:33

development efforts and nothing you

50:35

know ordinary strains can can

50:37

visits and table and support

50:39

it's economy that way and

50:41

some. I think that Timorese

50:44

need constant reminders that they're

50:46

in the hearts and minds

50:48

of of of people around.

50:50

The World. And that was for Lunar.

50:52

Looser mind, the loose. Somewhere

50:55

between forty thousand, sixty thousand

50:57

two Murray's law school laws

50:59

due to drift from these

51:01

with prose is an Allied

51:03

bombing only forty destroyed and

51:05

starred. We do have that

51:07

two hundred and. Yes,

51:10

Indeed, Get. When

51:12

you go back now to tell

51:15

you what's the ceiling in the.

51:20

Loop. I think. There's

51:23

still tremendous. Hope

51:26

and positivity about the future.

51:28

That's not to downplay the

51:31

challenges he denied. this. Silks

51:33

Way too many people living in

51:36

poverty. This way too many children

51:38

that it that a stunted. You

51:41

know, schools that. Don't enjoy a

51:44

eat at the most basic. conditions

51:47

in terms of infrastructure and

51:49

own quality of of teaching

51:52

and learning am but people

51:54

are up plus it is

51:57

about the seats her and

51:59

or I think that's something

52:01

that really strikes regular visitors to

52:03

Timor-Leste. It's the fact that in

52:06

spite of the hardship of people's

52:08

lives, people still manage

52:10

to smile. And

52:12

that really leaves an impression

52:14

on people that travel to

52:17

Timor regularly, you

52:19

know, seeing how hard life still is.

52:21

And yet people manage to to have

52:24

a positive outlook about the

52:26

future. The listeners

52:29

would demand that I give a

52:31

koala stab with gum leaf cluster

52:33

to my guest, Ruby

52:36

Blade, aka Kirsty

52:38

Sword-Gusmar, for so

52:40

generously giving up her time.

52:42

And Kirsty's foundation

52:45

is the Olola Foundation. And please

52:48

give it your support. Thanks,

52:51

Kirsty. And thanks, Ruby. Thank

52:53

you so much, Philip. And that's your

52:55

lot. On our next let's be blunt

52:57

with Dunt and we'll

52:59

hear the strange tale of

53:02

an Indonesian pilot turned record

53:04

producer. See you then. You've

53:57

been listening to an ABC podcast.

54:00

Discover more great ABC podcasts,

54:03

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54:05

the ABC Listen app.