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go land barn the Shelley's

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Mozart Good or search for

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the sublime in the very

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object. Of scientific inquiry but

1:00

that later on first up

1:03

a story of ambition, rice

1:05

and power and a year

1:07

politician with a plan in

1:09

a sense is also a

1:12

bit volcanic. A refer to

1:14

Peter Dutton is the subject

1:16

of a new quarterly essay

1:19

by my next guest, and

1:21

I want to begin with

1:23

a quote. Peter.

1:26

Dutton. Eight. Bleeding

1:28

Heart lefties for breakfast.

1:30

He is tall and

1:32

bold with a resting

1:34

death stare eyes. He's

1:36

lips are allergic to

1:38

political correctness. Peter preachers

1:40

the gospel of Howard

1:42

with the fanaticism of

1:45

caging. He wants to

1:47

do that Labour party

1:49

slowly, slowly, slowly and

1:51

defeat. The woe is

1:53

Me is the woe

1:55

is me. Heroism. Rather

1:57

about density politics now.

2:00

It's important that see

2:02

opening Salvo of journalist

2:04

and right of Like

2:06

Planes a quarterly essay

2:08

and title is. Pretty.

2:10

Good, it's bad. Cops Peter

2:12

dozens of strongman politics and

2:14

a she Canadian lake doesn't

2:17

pull punches. He was lost

2:19

on the Little Waters program

2:21

in June twenty twenty two

2:23

to discuss his essay for

2:25

the monthly Cold Steel and

2:28

Loathing About people. His votes

2:30

were changing in the last

2:32

friend from On Nixon and

2:34

it's my pleasure to welcome

2:37

him back. And. This

2:39

time is in the studio. Lick

2:41

you the right person to be

2:43

writing about them because you come

2:46

from coins, mend. Yeah,

2:48

I come from Queensland. I. Think

2:51

it's a pretty unique political culture.

2:53

This I have spent a lot

2:56

of time studying buys. The.

2:58

Disillusionment with certain voters in Queensland with

3:01

the federal level body I have Also

3:03

as I grew up in on the

3:05

Darling Downs, I grew up in a

3:07

melting pot of conservatism. I was actually

3:10

born in Kenya Roy which is not

3:12

far away from my job. He occupies

3:14

a since I've been excuse me leads

3:16

to some moment of quiet river and

3:19

sordid that's exactly as ah ah ah.

3:21

sites are hours or even from a

3:23

young age. even before I was fully

3:26

paying attention to politics or satellites are.

3:28

Surrounded by people with pretty

3:30

forthright views about politics and

3:32

nam a lotta conservatives, I

3:35

hadn't realized The Dutton is

3:37

in fact a multi generational

3:39

point. Science and stuff is

3:41

great. Great Great Grandfather yes

3:44

I Richard Collie was the

3:46

first Sergeant of arms to

3:48

the Queensland Parliament's and actually

3:50

testified about the actions of

3:53

the Night police on the

3:55

Queensland Frontier. And

3:57

that. Involved. Terrible

4:00

story where there was a mess

4:02

poisoning the first nations people with

4:05

strict months and I'll sneak in

4:07

their flour. Yeah, a disguise to

4:09

that. Add the the real violence

4:11

that existed on the Queensland frontier

4:14

and and the the Queensland Frontier

4:16

happening lighter than the colonization of

4:18

the Southern states. And saw this,

4:21

it created a real an outcry.

4:24

In the Southern States. I think

4:26

that that contributed certainly to the

4:28

sense that the siege mentality of

4:30

Queensland politics. but he's a paradox

4:32

collies a daughter and son in

4:34

law that dozens of great great

4:37

grandparents will cease protectors of I

4:39

Brew Drew Brees. Yeah, that was

4:41

astonishing and and so Charles doesn't

4:43

to light a when into Queensland

4:45

state parliament's was a whistle blower

4:47

against the actions of the Night

4:50

is place and he write letters

4:52

to to newspapers in Queensland. But

4:54

also into statins in some of

4:56

the letters to the The Sydney

4:58

Morning Herald. whereas were extremely vehement

5:00

about the the violence that was

5:02

being committed by the night his

5:04

place. Now in Eighteen Eighty three,

5:06

Charles Darwin was elected to parliament

5:08

for the seat of Luck Out

5:10

and became of all things minister

5:12

cool lands. Yeah, and he he

5:14

was. He was a fairly don't

5:17

divisive political figure and and such

5:19

as a a C. Quite so

5:21

that the the Like or Nationalists

5:23

magazines in. Queensland and of about

5:25

his very hostile relationship with the

5:27

meteor in Queensland. I didn't realize

5:30

that to he was sufficiently influential

5:32

that assholes supposed Brisbane dozen parks

5:34

was named in his own. yeah

5:37

I dunno doesn't park well with

5:39

sides as pretty in are pretty

5:41

close to the in a city

5:44

in Brisbane. Ah and and yeah

5:46

he's a suddenly yeah he said

5:48

we had a lot of influence

5:51

like has preacher ever spoken much

5:53

publicly. About his family history, neither

5:55

is bay know. There's been some

5:57

reports of these and references to.

6:00

But he never actually address it publicly.

6:02

Why? I'm. Not really sure. Ah

6:04

it big especially given the fact that

6:06

child on himself was. A.

6:08

Bit of a hero within the the. By.

6:11

Modern Standards in in the Why that he

6:13

really address the balance of the frontier. But.

6:16

I think it's fair to says

6:18

he does seem to prefer to

6:20

emphasizes ordinary up from doesn't the

6:22

I come from the suburbs and

6:24

I've never change my varied use

6:26

or forgotten where I came from.

6:29

Year and I mode and I and I

6:31

did lose a lot of the a lot

6:33

of the family money in the a really

6:36

bad rash of naughty I Teresa. That's when

6:38

the Dutton moved to add a suburb in

6:40

Brisbane and then by dozens grandfather was a

6:42

try to and than his father was a

6:45

try to as well. So the power and

6:47

prestige of the done family at that early

6:49

time add add sort of drifted away. Now

6:52

down the track when he becomes Prime

6:54

minister, you'll be in charge of the

6:57

national economy. So I'm shocked to learn

6:59

the when he did business studies it

7:01

unique sound accounting he did his first

7:04

year at university. he did six subjects

7:06

and he sowed for them and so

7:08

he was. He was also it's they'd

7:11

started his political career at that point

7:13

because your price elections for the Liberal

7:15

party for a cease and concisely bus

7:18

as I fly to say to listen

7:20

on Brisbane South Side side. He

7:22

was running at the Ninety Ninety

7:24

Nine State election where the ab

7:27

the conservatives had fallen apart ah

7:29

and the coalition fallen apart by

7:31

parties were annihilated. Now.and

7:34

grew up in Be Okay

7:36

Peterson's police state and becomes

7:38

a policeman himself. He was

7:40

in the I think initial

7:42

intake after the first our

7:44

inquiry sites. He spoken about

7:46

the the list as pause

7:48

and remind the listener what

7:51

the seats to the Ari

7:53

was yes I the the

7:55

Fitzgerald and Klar in Queensland

7:57

uncovered. Really? Serious

7:59

corruption. At the highest level

8:01

of the Queensland Police Force, inside, there

8:03

was. There. Was a

8:05

real protection rap racket for corruption,

8:08

for prostitution, for gambling at the

8:10

at the highest level of of

8:12

the Queensland criminals he was facilitated,

8:14

was angry and for kickbacks? absolutely

8:16

so he jones falls off to

8:18

that he was in the initial

8:20

intake and so he's he's spoken

8:22

about have as there was a

8:24

real suspicion towards the the new

8:26

the new blood who were coming

8:29

in because they were trying to

8:31

clean up the Queensland police force.

8:33

Well as dozens for dessert.

8:35

He comes from a very

8:37

different background to it's prior

8:40

Liberal party leaders who tend

8:42

to be a whoop noises

8:44

also me from the establishment.

8:46

Yeah he. he definitely doesn't

8:48

come from that. Blue.

8:51

Blood To. sort of a latest tradition

8:53

that was really strong was in the

8:55

Liberal Party. I I think that they're

8:57

that he has a date desist suspicion

9:00

towards the intelligence here and I think

9:02

that was probably shaped by by his

9:04

experiences university and and all sides. Ah,

9:07

the kind of attitude the a form

9:09

with in the police force towards lawyers

9:11

and journalists. We often

9:14

have mingles with Tingle and

9:16

we have shipped through it

9:18

with Bruce and now we're

9:20

having them explain with blame.

9:22

My guest is linked plane

9:24

tunes to most of the

9:26

Quarterly as a bad cop

9:29

p to dozens. Strongman politics

9:31

now a source of pretty

9:33

a risk kids cases of

9:35

domestic violence and childhoods and

9:37

six and abuse and he

9:39

hated the moon. Who to

9:41

argue for? Leniency. Yea.

9:44

Was. In are extremely

9:46

terrific. Some of the cases that he

9:48

investigated and he was. He was really

9:51

thrust from a quite sheltered suburban upbringing

9:53

to confronting some of the worst aspects

9:55

of society. And ah, that left an

9:57

indelible mark on him. and I. The

10:00

an indelible mark on his approach to

10:02

what he says is in a city

10:04

elates with sale liberal principles and sort

10:07

of. Preaching. Tolerance

10:09

and forgiveness and that the

10:11

presumption of innocence he cited

10:13

deed these experiences key reason

10:15

for on coding runs apology

10:17

to the stolen generations. To

10:19

me it's yes I he sought

10:21

it is. Experiences in North Queensland

10:24

are in Townsville which is

10:26

a big army town with a

10:28

big says nation's population and sites.

10:31

He talked about domestic violence

10:33

that he would confront and I

10:35

think that the late that he

10:37

makes from. Those experiences to not

10:40

being willing to attend the apology

10:42

I don't quite follow all that.

10:44

Ah, but certainly that lists a

10:46

real mark on the why that

10:49

he approached Rice Rural Relations. It

10:51

was the first on my Rudy

10:53

became aware of him to I

10:55

Must Miss is Not Just Cop

10:57

on the Beat though. he and

11:00

his father grew a multi million

11:02

dollar properties investment business or businesses

11:04

I guess there were able to

11:06

take advantage of her out. Turned

11:09

to capital gains. oh and or negative

11:11

gearing. It was immaculate timing. So I'd

11:13

started buying properties in the early nineteen

11:15

nineties. Well done was to on the

11:17

police force or doesn't let the police

11:19

force and ninety nine on. And then.

11:23

I was Yeah it was a sliding

11:25

doors moment for the Shrine Property Market

11:27

and I started to buy properties which

11:29

they renovated into childcare centres and ah

11:31

the a strain property market was about

11:33

to go through the roof smell the

11:35

strain and estimated dum dum was was

11:37

at least. Ten million. Perhaps

11:39

as much as Twenty million

11:42

that sir quite some time

11:44

ago. And as you point

11:46

out that a soldier childcare

11:48

centres to were Etti Groves

11:51

is a receipt looming for

11:53

roughly. Three. Million. Yeah,

11:56

that was. I'm one of the first

11:58

instances of. Controversy

12:00

in his career was his association

12:02

with Eddie Guys who was a

12:04

diner to the the The Liberal

12:07

Party and had a close personal

12:09

friendship. Was done himself. Snow in

12:11

Twenty Four during the dozens. bought

12:13

a beach mention on the go

12:15

codes from it's couple of minutes

12:17

and that neighbors included to Clive

12:20

Palmer and Ryan Stokes years ago

12:22

as I think I was referred

12:24

to as million As Ride likely.

12:27

So. That was A that was at the the cream of

12:29

the crop. Wasn't. Easy

12:31

to find all the stuff and

12:33

because much of it is entirely

12:35

new to me, it's been reporter

12:37

on yeah, like yeah, I was

12:39

years. I think that it's history

12:42

when you pace it all together

12:44

for a long period of time.

12:46

It's he say I year though.

12:48

The kind of connections between by

12:50

his investments in or size political

12:52

positions. After the elections, his wife

12:54

bought a shopping center in Townsville

12:56

and To doesn't put the zombies

12:59

registry events. It's a forgot. To

13:01

declare. A

13:03

shopping center? Yeah, is this I

13:05

would. You could just as easily

13:07

slip. Reminds us. Ah

13:10

he was he A was. It

13:13

as I say and the essay at

13:15

I had a Lauren his plight of

13:17

that time is falling on a number

13:19

of France I that's why I ride

13:21

around the same time as a lot

13:23

of is the most controversial statements Now

13:25

doesn't rods the Pauline Hanson ways in

13:27

and is finally linked to Federal parliament

13:29

in two thousand and One It was

13:31

a real kind or sliding doors moment

13:33

in a strain politics because Hansen had

13:35

come through but she was on the

13:37

why I hadn't said she was actually

13:39

would end up spending some time and

13:42

in jail and. Damn Nine Eleven was

13:44

about to happen. The tamper affair

13:46

was about to happen.and children over

13:48

children I was allowed to have

13:50

from yes I Done Was are

13:52

secured preselection. He was coming into

13:54

a Liberal Party that was signed

13:56

to express a lot more consternation

13:58

towards what they. There is a

14:00

light switch had previously been now on

14:03

liberal voters so doesn't really fit this

14:05

new braid which was. People

14:08

who saw themselves as outsiders and

14:10

that's certainly how he saw himself.

14:12

and I think that I refer

14:14

to him as a thinking man's

14:16

point insist on lox his plan

14:19

on going to quoted in future,

14:21

and Climbers mimosas I'm sitting in

14:23

the studio talking to Like Blame

14:25

journalist and author and his quarterly

14:27

essays Cold Bad Cop Peter Dozens

14:29

Strongman. Politics Now we

14:31

talk. So.

14:38

I want a fast food to

14:40

the present. Now let's talk about

14:42

a strategy that battle fools boobs.

14:45

He's very much a supporter of

14:47

Matt Canavan from the The Nets.

14:49

To say the Coalition needs to

14:52

embrace Bogan I say since in

14:54

other words out bachelors and it's

14:56

a is is this is this

14:59

A discourse has been continuing since

15:01

Nineteen Ninety Six. and if it's

15:03

really interesting because if you look

15:06

at the soda states. That constituted

15:08

the Howard Battler. Saves a lot of

15:10

the mods to in the hands of

15:12

the Liberal party like I didn't become.

15:14

What a new rusted on by so

15:16

the Liberal party if you look at

15:18

sites like Macquarie, Ah Per and the

15:21

Blue Mountains and and Macarthur in southwest

15:23

Sydney Parramatta they went back to labour

15:25

party in fact eventually got. Quite.

15:28

Strong margins. They're like gab. So the

15:30

seat of Lindsay or by thread, Penrith

15:32

that's one that's sorted by. Tony Abbott

15:34

has been the new base of the

15:36

Liberal party, But compared to the the

15:39

safety of their old traditional blue ribbon,

15:41

say it's ah. it's a it's a

15:43

very yeah, it's It's very interesting to

15:45

think that that could potentially replace it's.

15:48

Entered. The to use the rule

15:50

in a metropolitan professionals all

15:53

women's doesn't stop and seeing

15:55

the need to win the

15:57

seat back. Well. If

15:59

you look at. Immediately after the Two Thousand and Twenty

16:01

Two election where there was a great debate about

16:03

what was going to be the new future for

16:05

the Liberal policies he. Really? Clearly

16:07

signal that he was going to go

16:09

after what he called the forgotten Paypal

16:12

which was the data suburban and and

16:14

regional states if you historically. If you

16:16

look at. Who Menzies

16:18

was talking about when he was talking

16:20

That's gotten Paypal included A lot of

16:22

the kind of in a metropolitan professionals

16:24

who weren't represented by the trade unions

16:26

and were represented by big business so

16:28

it is Even other than the name

16:31

is the same. I think that the

16:33

actual the actual character of those papers

16:35

concise advertise. So there are forty five.

16:37

In Amid I proposed and seats and.and

16:39

is happy to leave Labor, the greens

16:42

and the to use to squabble over

16:44

them they certainly has been over

16:46

the past year. yes what is all

16:48

of his especially during the voice his

16:51

arm he he's gonna like being

16:53

quite disparaging about those it in a

16:55

metropolitan sites and we should remind themselves

16:57

to the mods three seed increase

16:59

for doesn't would plunge oh been easy

17:02

into Martin minority government yeah and I

17:04

think that he's like com he's

17:06

got design ideology. But he's also a

17:08

pragmatist and if you're going to go

17:10

to the next elections, it's extremely hard

17:12

to say how you can run a

17:14

campaign that will both win back the

17:16

out a suburban when Alice Vivid seats

17:18

and if I win back the Teal

17:20

seats. I have very different political priorities

17:22

sites and certainly commentators have talked about

17:24

the idea of a two term strategy

17:26

where you drive Labor into a minority

17:28

first and that's when you come back

17:30

for the Teal status. I go into

17:32

a minority government with Labour. Like gosh,

17:35

we've seen the Loop say that they

17:37

don't. Ever a woman problem but

17:39

to it just recently did

17:41

Would Love Blokes addresses fuzzy

17:43

wuzzy strategies. They're also very

17:45

asked well ethnicity and gender

17:47

or the other two an

17:49

achilles heels of the Liberal

17:51

party in terms of addressing

17:53

what needs to be done.

17:55

And they were like even

17:57

recently I've of the way.

18:00

Alex and it's go up to the

18:02

top of the strain Senate ticket and

18:04

them. Yet Bridget Archer said to me

18:06

that when she goes into party rooms

18:09

and see people like Alex added she

18:11

wonders who are these people Like it?

18:13

It doesn't It doesn't represent to her

18:15

what she says is a real liberal

18:17

tradition. So what it does former liberal,

18:20

most bizarre turn to Bury have to

18:22

say to you I said that the

18:24

liberal bias was water than a Mormon

18:26

golf tournament. Blinds

18:29

end up bob cancer I think

18:31

all sides check yeah he we

18:33

had a massive try. a bad

18:35

advice the jollier us ah and

18:37

then also just as ryan political

18:39

history and ah he was. he

18:41

was surprisingly ah very scathing about

18:43

the the talent on the liberal

18:45

party from bench especially if the

18:47

people around a dozen and really

18:49

thing you positions and he said

18:51

i don't want to speak derogatory

18:53

will hate ah but the liberal

18:55

party is completely bereft of talents.

18:58

Save. Peoples' we talked to on forgot

19:00

to ask did doesn't talk now I tried

19:02

to reach out to to his office and

19:05

tried to reach out to him directly but

19:07

I didn't hear anything back. Were you surprised

19:09

I didn't think that he received. I might

19:11

object Eurasia far as I might have checked

19:14

my eyes. yeah, I saw. yes I love.

19:16

I think that he's got a pretty adversarial

19:18

relationship with the media and so I think

19:21

that he really feels comfortable speaking to people

19:23

that he he feels will represent his

19:25

views, but he doesn't have an adversarial same

19:27

problem with all. The money due to

19:29

the Sco, not foods, rich and powerful

19:31

friends. Yes, I I think that it's

19:33

that and that presents a problem for

19:35

him. And are I think that's you

19:37

can become and place. And because you're

19:39

you're here. You're You're stuck in an

19:41

echo chamber. And I think that it's

19:43

actually I'm. Quite. Beneficial and miss

19:45

you. looked at the Y that someone like

19:48

John Howard used to engage with the Ib

19:50

say he had a very strong hostility towards

19:52

the Ib say but he was still able

19:54

to Really, he was still able to represent

19:57

and he was to ever go. And I

19:59

showed him. The represent himself without losing his

20:01

temper or or kind of and the trying

20:03

the kind of paranoid that he had about

20:05

the Ib say he could still show people

20:07

that he to even might not fully agree

20:10

with him that he had a strong economic

20:12

vision. So. We talked

20:14

about his from with women's but

20:16

he was very clean to foreground

20:19

the would give one moment particular

20:21

and it's too soon to price

20:23

that a very fruitful partnership. During

20:26

The Voice and Are I think

20:28

that I actually saw I I

20:30

met. Just into price and

20:32

Alice Springs during the referendum and

20:34

and much more. solid. I had interview

20:37

her but I just watched her

20:39

engage with Paypal and she was able

20:41

to bring much more of a common

20:44

touch that Dutton said my doesn't

20:46

have gotten very awkward and wouldn't in

20:48

public and and so it's gonna

20:50

be interesting to see what sort of

20:52

role she plays next. The Violence

20:54

in And Springs. That.

20:56

Resume politicised to postpone doesn't? Yeah,

20:59

I think it was an attempt

21:01

to cultivate like an altered his

21:03

moral high ground where he couldn't

21:05

say no to the voice he

21:07

needed to present another issue that

21:09

would be abu that that he

21:11

will be able to focus on

21:14

to show that he wasn't completely

21:16

ignoring the issues indigenous communities but

21:18

a completely in the process it

21:20

is. It disregarded the First nations

21:22

people who don't live in the

21:24

Outback. You haven't experience sexual violence.

21:26

Who live in the suburbs and

21:28

dead in the in the city

21:31

you? so it's impossible for him

21:33

not seats Aboriginal people through the

21:35

prism of law and order. Yeah,

21:37

and that's a that's a direct

21:39

legacy of his experiences in the

21:41

place was dozens demolition job on

21:43

the Voice was a big win

21:45

for hims. I did have caused

21:47

by advance and in many ways

21:49

the press and it can't be

21:51

ignored. current. Now I can't be

21:53

ignored and I think that this

21:55

sub in I disobeyed. At a

21:57

different essay but there is an issue

21:59

for. The Labour party in terms

22:02

of confronting the the disconnect between

22:04

them and add a suburban and

22:06

regional communities and and there is

22:08

certainly a lot of disillusionment about

22:10

the cost of Living crosses and

22:12

the inability full social mobility and

22:14

on mistrial but some and advances

22:16

scare campaign on the release of

22:18

detainees didn't seem to work in

22:20

the Dunkley A by election. They

22:22

seem to miss the main mode

22:24

of the people more worried about

22:26

housing prices in the cost of

22:28

living. Nine that was. That

22:30

was exactly when you'd think that this

22:32

at a suburban strategy would be really

22:34

bearing fruit because it's a safe that

22:36

is fairly was and at a suburb

22:39

of Melbourne. Ah, so it has pretty

22:41

similar ethnic demographics to Garden State of

22:43

Dixon. Ah, but by rabbit to get

22:45

a swing but it wasn't enough. and

22:47

yeah, if he if he looked at

22:49

expectations you think that was when that

22:52

would win becasue like that. But to

22:54

lives are also snow good on the

22:56

states. Three tax cuts one thing. yeah

22:58

and that sir. That guys to this

23:00

discourse a bad I'd done talking about

23:02

being the the party for working class

23:05

Australians an hour or I think that

23:07

there's yeah there's a certain level of

23:09

engagement with at certain working class people

23:11

with cultural or issues but I think

23:13

of I also want like a really

23:15

clear economic at vision for had a

23:18

going to improve their laws. Now

23:21

lie ballooned. A hard lesson on

23:23

the need. For months I've done

23:25

some support on a big social

23:28

issue like the. Voice in the

23:30

year they put the ball in.

23:32

Dozens. Court over the religious

23:34

discrimination builds Lc Block to

23:37

to handle bird well. He's

23:39

tied by the nature of

23:41

the. Liberal Party room

23:44

after the election is less

23:46

moderates. There's increasingly more religious

23:48

conservatives size Hayes said on

23:50

the. Public. Rec go Before that,

23:53

he's not a bobble basha. He's not Adam

23:55

proud on abortions. thought he's also Rob. He's

23:57

also got a lot of supporters who are.

24:00

He says is not a bible by

24:03

shifts and he makes a point to

24:05

be voted for gay marriage but that

24:07

was after a bit of indecision. I

24:10

think it was a child. The why

24:12

that pelican move an extremely mysterious lies

24:14

in size of the I had a

24:17

him supporting that a plebiscite actually enabled

24:19

him to gain more power actually gets

24:21

the home affairs portfolio side yea I

24:24

are he was certainly wasn't a strong

24:26

supporter of gay marriage. in fact he

24:28

is. Initially he bought no. It's know

24:31

as the at the actual plebiscite. So.

24:33

In Going Down the Rebels have

24:35

to says i what are some

24:37

things to do learn about dolphins

24:40

character he's not associate pets he

24:42

said. I was

24:44

according to Andrew Brag, which is

24:46

pretty seamless because I'm. Dozens.

24:48

Was famously also said that he's not

24:50

a monster so that sad that are

24:52

less most of us to things that

24:54

he's not so ah size yeah that

24:56

that goes to i think the why

24:58

that I'm a lot of people waving

25:01

moderates or people who do really didn't

25:03

like done after he challenge time but

25:05

when two thousand I don't still thought

25:07

that in private he was quite a

25:09

level headed and diplomatic sort of person

25:11

which doesn't mess with his public persona

25:13

else if you come to have you

25:15

about with he says in the leadership.

25:17

In the Liberal party I I

25:19

think that he's pretty sys said

25:21

this sable future. I think this

25:23

paper when a liberal party with

25:25

ambitions but. He.

25:28

As if they they really lost that

25:30

next generation of leadership after the two

25:32

thousand Twenty Two election and of got

25:34

some of them back like there's some.

25:36

David Sharma is back in the the

25:38

Senate. They've got a new senator from

25:40

the South was Cool Mcmurray, a covert

25:42

huge so that's their in the Senate

25:44

suburb. He's safe

25:46

from from a challenge from from those

25:48

people said is not is not as

25:51

really obvious leadership qualities standing in the

25:53

background behind him like thanks for dropping

25:55

bombs I have no idea at all

25:57

I really enjoyed us. Have been talking.

26:00

Do Like Blame for the

26:02

Second Times journalist and author

26:04

of The Quarterly as A

26:06

Bad Cops Peter Jones Strongman

26:09

Politics and Coming Up John

26:11

Brewer expose the history of

26:13

Vesuvius and it's many businesses

26:15

over of the Me. I've

26:28

just been going through the C

26:30

V is my next guest and

26:33

it's like watch control at the

26:35

end of us. Or

26:39

another, since it flows like

26:41

Martha, which is entirely appropriate

26:43

as he and I are

26:46

about to discuss volcanoes, one

26:48

in particular Vesuvius. Well, it's

26:51

a relatively small volcanoes volcanoes

26:53

go, but of course it

26:55

looms large in our imaginations.

26:58

And as been on the

27:00

tourist itinerary for longer than

27:02

the new mind a mention

27:04

the Volcano, the Buried Bombay

27:07

in Seventy Nine A D

27:09

went on to become a

27:11

site of international fascination in

27:13

the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries

27:16

Mozart Bar and Shelley's Oakland

27:18

Vesuvius as well as a

27:20

host of lesser known to

27:22

risk to a trip to

27:24

the summit scorching they shoes

27:27

and frying aids. Among the

27:29

wine shown, brewer emerges professor

27:31

at the California Institute of

27:34

Technology and he's held so

27:36

many seen you post and

27:39

nickname that. It

27:41

takes a breath away, almost

27:44

like the song for Spoons

27:46

and from Vesuvius and he's

27:48

written a great new book

27:50

on the subject. It's called

27:52

Volcanic for see this in

27:54

the Age of Revolution and

27:56

I'm delighted that Jones on.

27:58

The Blower from Boston. Welcome

28:00

to L! Two words Programmed

28:02

To let me begin by

28:04

asking you about the Swope,

28:06

the serendipitous find that inspired

28:08

to book. Yes well

28:11

I was working on the project of

28:13

on the Grand Tour which was part

28:15

of an exhibition that was being mounted

28:17

at Yale and also it up the

28:19

ass million in Oxford and or I

28:22

was at that time visiting all birds

28:24

and I was looking in the library

28:26

and see what they had and so

28:28

on and I saw this peculiar an

28:30

entry about a visit his book can

28:33

I call it up and. Then.

28:35

I. Looked. At this astonishing

28:37

documents I mean at one that

28:39

has, as I later calculated, two

28:41

thousand, three hundred signatures and it

28:44

of people who had visited the

28:46

volcano or at least had stopped,

28:48

offered the Hermitage on the way

28:50

up to the volcano and signed

28:53

the book, called, written some comments,

28:55

or I've done a little anna

28:57

tasered or maybe occasionally a small

28:59

drawings while they were on that

29:02

pilgrimage up to the summit. What

29:04

was so interesting about this. Was

29:06

that You know we have. A

29:09

list of famous people with which

29:11

you began your opening remarks. But

29:15

we don't really know very months

29:17

in any detail about all the other

29:19

people. He when top we have a

29:21

sort of generalizations. lots of people went

29:24

up or many people went. All

29:26

or not some gran Turismo when salt

29:28

but what? This. Book. Enables

29:31

me to do. I

29:33

was too kind of construct

29:35

a much more details nuanced

29:38

particular eyes picture of who

29:40

was going up the mountain

29:42

and why Thought to have

29:44

to ask is because clearly

29:46

someone nicht the book but

29:48

hadn't heard. Get to Harvard.

29:51

Well, no one is absolutely

29:53

certain about this, but it

29:55

was part of a bequest

29:57

given by the Longfellow family.

30:00

To the university in the

30:02

late nineteenth century. To

30:06

people in their library or not

30:08

very clear about how it came

30:10

to be the of as that

30:12

they think it's part of the

30:14

Longfellow bequest. it's castle of these

30:16

sites for long time it was

30:18

only open cells to the library

30:20

will select leaks in the research

30:22

library, the ice and like library

30:24

it was probably I suspect it

30:26

was. Stolen. And

30:29

ruled by by a Harvard

30:31

graduate. To Dame America

30:33

and then presented to the

30:35

Harvard Library. What a gift

30:37

to history in in particular

30:39

to Historian Cold John Brewer.

30:41

Well that lots of people

30:44

must have had an opportunity

30:46

to look at this before.

30:48

But the difficult. The thing

30:50

is that a you know

30:52

you're dealing with a document

30:54

that has several thousand signatures,

30:56

comments in different languages all

30:58

with different Android since and

31:00

very often written and. Circumstances

31:02

of the they they were rising

31:05

perhaps not in the mother tongue

31:07

of a quite likely to be

31:09

drunk at the time on the

31:11

wind that was provided by the

31:13

Us by the hermit who held

31:16

the book so that it's a

31:18

very difficult. Thing to

31:20

deal with an infant. I don't

31:22

think anyone trying to do this

31:25

task before the internet would have

31:27

been able to do it without

31:29

devoting the rest of their entire

31:31

lives to it. because tracing down

31:34

and tracking people has become so

31:36

much easier and so much simpler

31:38

than it used to be. are

31:40

using these kind of databases or

31:43

national record so a very of

31:45

various sorts. There's so many now

31:47

although. One. Of the

31:49

things I learned was it's very different

31:51

for different groups of people. not just

31:53

that you know to trace the aristocracy

31:55

is all was easier than to trace

31:57

the all season. But. Also.

32:00

I'm the English and French who

32:03

had more centralized states, more centralized

32:05

records. It's much easier to find

32:07

people in their archives or in

32:09

the data bases than it is

32:12

say in Italy or Germany where

32:14

you didn't have a kind of

32:16

a centralized national national all com

32:19

because he also didn't have a

32:21

centralized nations john New makes appointed

32:23

as well as well Arrows to

32:25

party grand to wrist people from

32:28

all walks of life. Might

32:31

decline: Clergyman, physicians, bankers,

32:33

painters, scholars. Why would

32:35

the so many Swiss

32:37

moose and race. Well

32:41

that's a very interesting story really

32:43

because they would there because they

32:45

were. in fact I'm a military

32:47

police that was hired by the

32:50

King of Naples because he couldn't

32:52

trust his own are all Me

32:54

that he couldn't trust is are

32:56

normally mainly because one of the

32:58

places that younger sons who couldn't

33:01

achieve Who who who were not

33:03

going to inherit the family wealth.

33:05

One of the things that they

33:07

did was to go into the

33:09

army. And the all me had become

33:11

really from the late. Eighteenth.

33:14

Century onwards. a kind

33:16

of censor of quite

33:18

serious a radical reform

33:20

ah I'm was behind.

33:24

In particular the a Revolution

33:26

of eighteen twenty or was

33:28

is led by army officers.

33:30

Often does the King of

33:32

Naples hired as a free

33:34

of for regiments all together

33:36

of Swiss who have brought

33:38

from the council's their were

33:40

shipped to you know hour

33:43

and. A answer frames and

33:45

then brought to Naples and they were

33:47

kept in a special barracks. They had

33:49

to take oath of allegiance to the

33:52

kings. They weren't allowed to fraternize with

33:54

locals. And just

33:56

one of the few recreations at least

33:58

the the officer clothes. We're

34:00

spending time on the Manson and

34:03

they were always drawing comparisons in

34:05

contrast between the Swiss Alps about

34:08

based must be on Fire and

34:10

Ice. And

34:12

they were quite a few women climbers.

34:15

Yes, More than you might it

34:17

expects. Probably about

34:19

twenty percent of them are.

34:22

Many of them are in

34:24

family groups, but also sometimes

34:26

groups of women on their

34:28

own. Under some commentators say

34:30

that. Women

34:32

visitors to to the Volcano

34:35

we're not really. Willing

34:37

to embrace this idea of

34:39

the sublime experience or whatever

34:41

that they had a kind

34:43

of different reaction? A But.

34:45

The evidence that I've seen shows

34:48

that a great many of women

34:50

entered into. That

34:52

the business of climbing the

34:55

volcano with tremendous enthusiasm and

34:57

sometimes had some personal risk

34:59

than romantic power to Shelley

35:01

made the point All argued

35:04

that the experience should give

35:06

a feeling of the sublime

35:08

but not everyone felt that

35:10

at sort of ecstasy to

35:12

they. Know.

35:15

I mean it's importance or think

35:17

for us to understand what the

35:19

sublime walls which is that it's

35:21

this kind of feel he is

35:23

a d static feelings provoked by

35:25

i'm a proximity to danger but

35:28

also the same time recognizing that

35:30

that danger is mills and you

35:32

know mortal peril mode you made

35:34

since the makes it very good

35:36

point was of a bit like

35:38

going to a horror movie where

35:41

you're of a bit scary and

35:43

but united you basically precise. Yes

35:46

and the the point of doing this

35:48

going up the mountain partly was to

35:50

in that experience this sort of feeling

35:52

mean the beat the whole business of

35:55

climbing the months. it was part of

35:57

a repertoire of roman sick feeling you

35:59

go. I'm you. You stare

36:01

into the current crazy of this sort

36:04

of. You look on, you know, into

36:06

the bowels of the earth, you look

36:08

into hell. Is it worse? Then you

36:10

turn around and you look back towards

36:13

the Bay of Naples which many people

36:15

including stoned all said was the most

36:17

beautiful spot on the planet. And you

36:19

see cultivation and cities of beauty and

36:22

so you get this whole range of

36:24

experiences through doing this. Where.

36:26

Do you learn about this? You

36:29

learn about it in guidebooks and

36:31

and handbooks. When describing some considerable

36:33

detail you know what people did

36:35

but also bought it was that

36:37

was supposed to. Some people didn't

36:39

play ball, have some people wrote

36:41

in the businesses book things like

36:43

all while I've never you know

36:45

this is piffling compared with wealth

36:48

mountains or for a second sniffling

36:50

and I agree I don't an

36:52

old talking about pindling. You have

36:54

mentioned some some French shield children

36:56

viewed literally. Peddled into the crater.

36:59

Will yes I don't know why

37:01

but there are more friends children

37:03

the that by the other nationality

37:06

I'm on the volcano and these

37:08

these boys have you know they

37:10

clearly didn't said well they were

37:12

too young rarity probably to understand

37:14

and it was sold at Children

37:16

really couldn't appreciate this feeling of

37:18

the sensitive is is that it

37:21

either they would be terrified or

37:23

they would be below say but

37:25

like like the young friends peddlers

37:27

but there are other ethnic groups.

37:29

With it's that are other examples

37:31

of children you know, writing their

37:33

names and Greek letters in the

37:36

book or aura playing games. and

37:38

indeed one of those for travelers

37:40

describes a French Months describes how

37:42

nobody was prepared to go down

37:44

into the crater until his young

37:47

go run down into the crisis

37:49

and then everybody else felt that

37:51

they were in some way obliged

37:53

to follow suit. even though they

37:55

would, they were terrified even if

37:57

she was not. This

38:00

is the case of the the

38:02

poor fellow who decided to commit

38:04

suicide by throwing himself and molten

38:06

lava. Well this is emphatically that

38:09

and at daughter of courses in

38:11

the classical legend but of yes

38:13

I. There are

38:15

quite a number of people who go to

38:17

the the goes the top of the on

38:20

candid that and kill themselves. But that leads

38:22

them to reflect on their lives in ways

38:24

that say you know your own. I've led

38:26

a terrible life, will migrate and the love

38:29

of my love life has been a store.

38:31

I've lost this or. But

38:33

a created a bit of a crime

38:35

a crisis because one of the things

38:38

that are on other things about going

38:40

up the services this that they're It

38:42

has to be this kind of balance

38:44

all the time. Between the. The.

38:46

Thrill of doing it and the danger.

38:48

It you wanted to be dangerous, but

38:50

you don't want to be fatal. So

38:53

it's when somebody does something like that.

38:55

This is all his questions about whether

38:57

you know, did he fall city slip,

38:59

what? What was the explanation and that's

39:01

one of the reasons why I'm in

39:03

Naples. there is published that kind of

39:06

pamphlet which explains how why this man

39:08

did it now exceptional it was and

39:10

how the guides who had been with

39:12

him when or able to prevent him

39:14

from doing this and that. This.

39:17

This is death as the

39:19

were also other deaths were

39:21

not really a reason for

39:24

not going to visit the

39:26

volcano. To me about the

39:28

the vintage grown on leveaux

39:30

can notice slopes. Well.

39:34

I don't know whether you can buy

39:36

it in Australia but some in a

39:38

lot from a Christie, his son, the

39:40

wine from the slopes his son it

39:43

is though the great local vintage and

39:45

it's one of the things that was

39:47

served by the hobbits who lived in

39:50

the Hermitage who are not really com

39:52

unit hunt I'm it's. One.

39:54

Thinks of a home at as being

39:56

someone who's isolated when a but there

39:59

has some time. You know,

40:01

there are two or three hermits who

40:03

brought Eden to cope with the numbers

40:05

of people visiting the volcano. especially when

40:08

it's actually erupting, which is when most

40:10

that of the most largest number of

40:12

people still there visiting. So I mean,

40:14

I think it was stoned. All he

40:17

said it was that the mine was

40:19

absolutely revolting. The locals of course we're

40:21

up and down all the time, but

40:24

their attitude to it must have been

40:26

pretty different. You point out that many

40:28

of them were well praying. To

40:30

the heavens for I'm salvation

40:33

from sleep to eruptions. Well.

40:36

I mean it, It's This is a

40:39

complicated question because on the one hands

40:41

on there is a sense that that

40:43

the might. Be. A terrible

40:45

catastrophe. but on the other. Most.

40:48

Of the locals. Have

40:51

had experience in this period, the

40:53

volcano erupting at a kind of

40:55

low level nearly all the time.

40:57

People. Of all used to the

41:00

fact that the volcano erupting very

41:02

frequently enough for different from an

41:04

experience of coming from outside or

41:06

going specifically as many people did

41:09

when they heard that there was

41:11

a rupture, know that eruption was

41:13

imminent that they went there to

41:15

seek to witness that for a

41:18

one time in a thrilling event

41:20

rather than being a local plus

41:22

I mean this is wonderful example

41:24

of a conversation between misses Us

41:27

Rail. Has appealed seats and

41:29

a poll woman on the edge of

41:31

the vote. on the edge of the

41:33

volcano your lap as a vineyard and

41:35

Mrs. Peel says it will how those

41:38

life blinds. Why do you live here

41:40

This is absurd. You know you are

41:42

you living him on the face of

41:44

the edge of death and this woman

41:46

says i, you know ah know You

41:49

know every three years it happens and

41:51

you know it destroys our big yard

41:53

or whatever it damages our property. But

41:55

we don't care about we don't care.

41:58

About the these things That much? Because. We

42:00

know that within three years that

42:02

the harvest and the vintage will

42:04

be splendid will be will make

42:07

up very quickly what we have

42:09

loss in any drug in the

42:11

a straight and neighborhood We have

42:14

a close family and and used

42:16

to fascinates me how of Balinese

42:18

would leave own in the shadow

42:20

of and some. Only

42:23

around volcano but of

42:25

course started rich. Very

42:27

very rich in the

42:29

Noom. Sort of a

42:32

miss of stuff. a listened

42:34

contract will yes. But I

42:36

mean people, Minneapolis's. Why?

42:39

Are many ways although they are

42:41

we are aware of the danger

42:43

of the volcano that the same

42:45

time in they see it as

42:47

something that's very much there's They

42:50

see the volcano's on of the

42:52

as part of their comfort zone

42:54

and frankly it's and a fraction

42:56

for foreigners but it's also a

42:58

minute provides the that the rich

43:00

agriculture it provides the building blocks

43:03

that in Naples is built with

43:05

blocks of lava. I mean it's

43:07

essentially built by. The detritus

43:09

as the volcano so it's

43:11

integrals who and you know

43:13

such San Gennaro with the

43:15

this the patron saint of

43:18

the city has his of

43:20

who was supposedly save the

43:22

city on many occasions from

43:24

Vesuvius on. Most. Notably, and

43:26

Sixteen Thirty One, which was the

43:29

most serious eruption. In

43:31

modern times, much more serious than

43:33

any other apart from the one

43:35

in and at a a d

43:37

some tonight. So I'm. Some.

43:40

Gennaro is in a part

43:42

of this whole kind of

43:44

relationship that it's good that

43:46

exists. He's our scientists, are

43:48

protector. That's all. volcano. It's.

43:51

All part of our our

43:53

heritage and our culture won't

43:55

talk talking of that. Introduces

43:58

to Silver Told him. Donor

44:00

who was well i don't know

44:02

sort of the local oligarch on

44:04

on matters for see the and.

44:07

Will. He wasn't an oligarch in the sense that

44:09

I didn't think he was a a particularly rich

44:11

man. I think he was probably. One

44:15

of many small holders

44:17

who are offered their

44:19

services as guys but

44:21

he managed. He was

44:23

a very astute businessmen

44:25

Earn more See did

44:27

was that he kind

44:29

of packaged the Vesuvius

44:31

experience locally. So. That

44:34

in it. When you went to

44:36

Vesuvius from Naples, you went to

44:38

receive know what is modern day

44:40

or que la no Madonna, how

44:43

to courtyards or the he provided

44:45

don't these guides and so it's

44:47

He negotiated with visitors on prices

44:50

and arrangements. Sometimes he took people

44:52

who are wealthier. It's own kind

44:54

of elaborate trips. Take them out

44:57

to the kind of trattoria. give

44:59

them some babes before he led

45:01

them up them up. Of. Them

45:04

of the Manson Family. Then along

45:06

comes Thomas Cook and pretty much

45:08

put him out of business. Well.

45:11

It's a complicated process because oh

45:13

what happens before Thomas Cook is

45:15

the first of all they build

45:17

a road to the Hermitage so

45:19

you no longer need a guide

45:22

to take you all the way

45:24

up that you can go in

45:26

a carriage and also they they

45:28

eventually build the peninsula of the

45:30

famous in or for the to

45:32

the for the to love That

45:35

song is about that particular that

45:37

to you up from the gum

45:39

gum base of the or of

45:41

the cone up to within about

45:43

a hundred meters of that of

45:45

the top so that the guides

45:48

would gradually kind of excluded through

45:50

technology. But it's also that Cook

45:52

gradually a me he first arrived

45:54

in Naples and eighteen sixty six.

45:59

But. what the family is that they first

46:01

of all they buy part of the road they make

46:03

it into a turnpike, you know the

46:05

cook turnpike. If you have a cook ticket

46:07

you don't have to pay but if you

46:09

aren't you have to pay to go up

46:11

the road to the funicular which

46:13

takes you to the top and at

46:15

the bottom of the funicular there is a restaurant

46:18

and in the restaurant there is you know

46:21

that with English waiters and English food is

46:26

a post office in which you can write

46:28

postcards saying you know wish you were here

46:31

or whatever with images of

46:33

and you know the whole experience is

46:36

transformed and you know the

46:38

pitch of cook and co is

46:40

always it's about comfort and

46:42

convenience it's not

46:44

about the confrontation with nature or

46:46

the difficulty of the climb or

46:49

you know feeling the danger in

46:51

quite the same that in quite the

46:53

same way so yeah it is

46:55

the romantic experience of Vesuvius which I'm

46:57

trying to some extent to isolate is

47:01

sort of evacuated in a way and people

47:03

say oh you know it's not like it

47:05

used to be where

47:08

you had this you know you had that struggle to get

47:10

to the top and you had this special

47:12

relationship with your guy guide and then

47:14

you made it and it was you

47:17

know it was like imitating in a

47:19

way that the great

47:21

achievements of the Explorer

47:23

philosophers like Alexander

47:25

von Humboldt for

47:28

example you described

47:30

the evolution in the attitudes

47:32

towards towards Vesuvius

47:34

there's a very powerful theological

47:38

argument that Vesuvius was

47:41

erupted to punish those wanton

47:43

and over wealthy and decadent

47:46

Romans but it also and

47:49

I find this astonishing became

47:51

a metaphor for revolutionaries

47:54

that's right that actually precedes this

47:56

some That this

47:59

view. Oh, from

48:01

the nineteenth century, rather from.

48:04

Conservative view of of the

48:06

volcano keto which is all

48:08

about the history. The earlier.

48:10

But during the French Revolution,

48:13

be the mountain becomes the

48:15

volcano. and the volcano becomes

48:17

this natural force that is

48:19

capable of transforming the world

48:22

through it's destruction. But it's

48:24

destruction is important because it's

48:26

reconstituted. but it it nurtures

48:29

just as that. You know,

48:31

the woman I mentioned earlier

48:33

talking to has to be

48:36

olds. He says, well, you

48:38

know it all comes back

48:40

similarly. There is this idea

48:42

that the that revolution be

48:45

violence than actually produce a

48:47

more fertile a better world

48:49

and that image of the

48:51

revolution as a volcano as

48:54

and and drawing and and

48:56

comparisons and also therefore claiming

48:58

that in some sense the

49:00

a political revolution is a

49:02

natural process like the process

49:05

of the volcano is one

49:07

that is repeatedly. expressed

49:10

especially. During know the of

49:12

that era in the seventeen ninety

49:15

it's in France. The book is

49:17

full of the stone who sings

49:20

surprises for me. I didn't realize

49:22

it early in the in her

49:24

since the discovery of Pompeii and

49:27

killing him that they estimate more

49:29

than perhaps a few hundred died

49:31

and was you know a minor

49:34

matter. it was only when they

49:36

started. Another thing while evidence of

49:38

body after body of body. And

49:41

people started to be quite old.

49:44

Yeah I wanted to emphasize the

49:47

find in the book Goods that

49:49

the way in which we almost

49:51

all and was everybody thinks about

49:53

Vesuvius now have a a it

49:55

It is an artifact of the

49:58

romantic era that before that. When

50:00

people didn't know will have

50:02

the view or after good

50:04

intimate relationship between on the

50:06

said that the eighties does

50:08

seventy nine am an eruption

50:10

and the volcano they were

50:12

thinking much more in some

50:14

says in terms of what

50:16

happened in the seventeenth century

50:18

is sixteen thirty one which

50:20

was the work. As I

50:23

said I'm actually a it's

50:25

not clear that that more

50:27

people died. In

50:29

eighty seventy. Nine, the Did A and

50:31

Sixteen Thirty One numbers are probably

50:34

comparable an axe and also be

50:36

one of the things that I

50:38

phone. So intriguing about this whole

50:40

project was that this volcano. Has.

50:43

Never really killed very many people,

50:45

and certainly when you compare it

50:48

to the Fates holidays for other

50:50

things a particularly and earthquakes which

50:52

of course it's all part of

50:55

the same kind of fun the

50:57

geological system, but. The. Volcano's

50:59

so much more spectacular than

51:01

than the earthquake bird the

51:04

earthquakes been this in this

51:06

period killed sixty thousand people

51:08

a. Cholera.

51:13

Starvation. Famine probably killed

51:15

just as many Vesuvius Cosby

51:17

killed any money by comparison

51:20

of, but it become has

51:22

become this sort of an

51:24

exemplary case of off of

51:27

natural this destruction of human

51:29

life. but it's also a

51:31

source of course become an

51:33

object of serious scientific inquiry.

51:36

Windows that begin. Well.

51:38

I don't know. Do you want to

51:40

say that says the older Pliny on

51:42

his what he to his desk but

51:45

it's us during the eruption Sick and

51:47

seventy nine was he was he being

51:49

the series scientists spurs in some ways

51:51

he he was. but. This.

51:53

facetiously i mean it's really

51:55

sixteen thirty one it's the

51:58

seventeenth century period son that's

52:01

the point at which a

52:04

systematic investigation of the volcano

52:09

begins. But it's

52:11

only really in the early 19th

52:13

century that this

52:15

local accumulation of information and

52:18

data gets connected

52:20

to a larger story

52:22

about the evolution of

52:26

the Earth, the history of the Earth and

52:29

of the role of fire and

52:31

volcanoes in it. I

52:33

thank you for a sublime encounter

52:36

John. My guest is

52:38

John Brewer, emeritus professor

52:40

at the California Institute

52:42

of Technology and his

52:45

new book is Volcanic.

52:48

For Suvius in the

52:50

Age of Revolution and it's published

52:52

by Yale University Press, a

52:55

brilliant effort John. Congratulations. Well

52:58

thank you, I've enjoyed talking. Blessings

53:01

upon you beloved listeners and thanks

53:03

to the team for another great

53:05

week. E.T. and a Whitfeld. Producers

53:08

Catherine Zingerer, Taryn

53:10

Bredger, Ian Coombe, Chloe

53:12

Adams, No Relation, Julie

53:14

Street and Amanda Roberts.

53:17

See you next week. You've

53:57

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