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podcasts, Radio. News. Music

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A. Good.

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I learned and pods and we're

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going to another like not a

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dog coming to from getting could

0:36

lend we do. We do love

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a bit of history, huge and

0:41

a new and tonight we're going

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to explore the idea of micro

0:45

history that serve looking at history

0:48

through a small leans. In this

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case it is the cargo ship

0:52

the Edwin Fox and had spent

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a lot of time in our

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neighborhood and that's coming up later.

0:59

I'm. About to introduce you to

1:02

have very successful Ghost Rider. But

1:04

before we get into that me

1:06

do a bit of a riff

1:09

on the notion of the ghostwriting

1:11

cause I can think of other

1:13

forms. One of them are my

1:16

produces the effectively my ghost writers.

1:18

Sometimes I sit in the studio

1:20

not for your actually the lager,

1:23

a ventriloquist doll load, perhaps a

1:25

glove puppet. Another variation on the

1:27

same has to be the. The

1:30

Speech Writer particularly those for

1:33

lofty figures like Prime Ministers

1:35

and I'm thinking now, don't

1:37

watch them and they year

1:40

the great tension between Don't

1:42

and Paul Keating over who's

1:44

the true author of the

1:47

famous Redford and Speech. But.

1:50

Now we're going to focus on

1:52

the ghost writer of books now

1:54

my next guest. He's a very

1:56

successful guys trotter. He says he

1:59

was only. The Job

2:01

after he became unemployable

2:03

following the release of

2:05

his first book in

2:07

Twenty Fourteen. That book

2:09

the Seal Good Fit

2:11

of the Year was

2:13

a memoir about growing

2:15

up with bohemian dub

2:17

smoking parents and his

2:19

early life isn't drug

2:21

using and drug dealing

2:23

pretty criminal in Millburn

2:25

ten years on is

2:27

also do Full Moon

2:29

Books. In his own right

2:32

and a ghost written several

2:34

global best sellers Liam paper

2:36

welcome to and at ones

2:38

program will get into Goes

2:40

Riding in a minute. But

2:43

to what was it about

2:45

your book? You first book

2:47

that made you unemployable. Good

2:50

question and good evening. Toilet and

2:53

positive A here on. What

2:55

was it about that book? The made

2:57

me unemployable. It was. Well, it was

2:59

a memoir and and as were touched

3:01

on a covered my time as a.

3:04

Sum. Up the him in

3:06

flower child turns recalcitrance. No

3:08

good net. And.

3:11

It was written I suppose the time in

3:13

my life when I was. I

3:16

wouldn't say my background was sheltered

3:18

exactly, but I was wonderfully. they've

3:20

about the world and how how

3:22

conservative society could be at times.

3:24

So I went. Maybe. One.

3:26

Always stress honesty and they're adding i may

3:28

be strive little too hard for honesty and

3:30

that book. And while it

3:32

didn't set the world on fire

3:34

this book, it was enough of

3:36

a conflagration to to burn that

3:38

any sort of chance of meaningful

3:40

employments know that book also involved

3:42

struggles with some decent Greece. Yes,

3:44

yes it was. I'm in Earth.

3:46

The elevator pitch for the book

3:48

is people haven't read it available

3:51

still in stores and libraries and

3:53

if anyone out there are struggling

3:55

with death or great for issues

3:57

of addiction as I have in

3:59

the past. Then

4:01

they encourage anyone to seek it out.

4:03

The yes it was a third dealt

4:05

with these things In in a nutshell.

4:07

it's the story of not only on

4:09

myself or my struggles, bit of my

4:11

family dealing with the loss or my

4:14

elder brother said passed away. When

4:17

user young, twenty one and.

4:20

The stories in some ways awake

4:22

a family trying to recover from

4:24

the shock and grief of that

4:27

loss in in their own complicated,

4:29

tragicomic ways. Liam, Why if I

4:31

Googled you. Want

4:33

was like scumbag come off ss

4:36

are. You would have to ask

4:38

my other my publicists or my

4:40

ex partners for precise definition, but

4:43

it's safe to say that. The.

4:45

Books for it had a bit of a.

4:48

A vigorous reception in the

4:50

media. Let's say some of

4:52

the most conservatives. Elements.

4:54

Of of the commentariat seized on

4:56

the headline rather than the. The.

4:59

Heart of the story as can

5:02

sometimes happen, yet in some way

5:04

it's set to own past. Well

5:08

it did make it has made find a

5:10

job in corporate communications. which might

5:12

have been apart and. A

5:14

path less traveled for me. While.

5:18

A prospective employment prospects with seen

5:21

on the ground for me at

5:23

a certain time in my life.

5:25

I had connections in publishing and

5:27

a publisher who had previously worked

5:30

with contacted me and had a

5:32

story of survival, true crime adjacent

5:34

but a story of an emotional

5:36

journey of recovery from being the

5:39

victim of a crime. And

5:42

this publisher thought than a my make

5:44

a good fit for this or so.

5:46

When I say author I mean in

5:48

the sense that. That's. The

5:50

person with the name on the book. The

5:52

person writing the story. He just needs a

5:54

little support from a ghostwriter serb. For.

5:56

The purposes of this Conversation Author

5:59

and rada. A distinct

6:01

so. In this

6:03

case, it wasn't true crime

6:05

story, a story of survival

6:07

and one thing leads to

6:09

another. And I understand you've

6:11

now worked at all the

6:13

major publishing houses. Well.

6:16

Yes not all of them. ah you know

6:18

there's a few in the Uk I'm still

6:20

admit yet said the pleasure for but I

6:22

have worked broadly cause the industry have done.

6:26

Many many many books. one book

6:29

after the other. Inner.

6:32

I have some capacity as a

6:34

writer and in her as one.

6:36

Ah, Publicity told me in

6:39

a somewhat backhanded compliment my

6:41

initial mendacity makes and voted

6:43

for the job and I

6:45

if I was looking in

6:47

the actual physical library of

6:49

your efforts this about twenty

6:51

volumes of say sir, I'll

6:53

decide eighteen to twenty in

6:56

the back catalogue. Although

6:58

either some of the books I'm

7:00

very involved in inner others I

7:02

give it the merest garnishes, ads

7:05

out of the kitchen so you

7:07

know who can say I said

7:09

we have any books it's one

7:12

of the do secret of certainly

7:14

are no of a couple of

7:16

cases mistreated publishing when a very

7:18

famous book with one name on

7:21

the cover or some fake virtually

7:23

written by the editor. Ah,

7:26

he could be told met any

7:28

of my own books, the seller

7:30

lists, or any of my own

7:33

literary success to editors. As as

7:35

he said at the top of

7:37

this conversation, any sort of media

7:39

a literary production involves many voices

7:41

working in the thing produces scriptwriters

7:43

in the media, and publishing is

7:45

is a graveyard full of ghosts

7:47

and will work together to one

7:49

extent or another. Although to say

7:51

that ghostwriting is that the one

7:53

dirty secret in publishing his. Lists

7:56

is highly productive. It's a

7:58

industry beset by secrets. Often

8:01

it's are just starting up the

8:03

yes the work and giving a

8:05

sort of a light Is it.

8:08

At times? Yes, absolutely. But that

8:10

depends on the book, and for

8:13

some people at it depends on

8:15

the natural alchemy between the author

8:17

and rather. Sm. Manifested.

8:20

Roll your your friend confidence. Something

8:22

of a blind dates, Something of

8:24

a therapist, something of a sworn

8:27

enemy. They'll be elements of all

8:29

of these things in any relationship.

8:31

Just how far you a wondrous

8:34

or the other will depend up

8:36

on that relationships. And you don't

8:39

want the reason to be conscious

8:41

of this on this magical process.

8:43

No, no things go well. It's.

8:46

You know you're never heard from your ghosts. Your

8:48

job is at the end to vanish. Proof The.

8:51

I you know it's a little

8:54

like I'm safety railing and in

8:56

a you miss it when it's

8:58

not their know. Clearly the author

9:01

is usually someone who's have achieved

9:03

something being who done something that

9:05

no one else has done Yes

9:08

Well generally if someone is. Ah,

9:11

Altering a book. If they've been

9:13

hired by big publisher to a

9:15

book, it's because it's usually a

9:17

memo as best as an autobiography

9:19

and it's generally because they've to

9:21

achieve something momentous in fields sports,

9:23

arts, state crafts may be have

9:25

many followers on Tic Toc. Whatever

9:27

their level of success the Princess

9:29

this point as sunday they could

9:31

only do if they were smart

9:33

enough to dedicate their last to

9:35

worthwhile pursuit. Since not become a

9:37

professional, rather many people have worked

9:39

with a people who. Could.

9:43

Write. Their own book very easily, but this will never

9:45

have the time in their lifetime, so it's a matter

9:47

of. Offering. You

9:49

know it takes is news to learn how

9:52

to write a book As you know you've

9:54

written many yourself but in a sense. All

9:57

those treatments don't teach you to.

10:00

Words. Are

10:02

you not necessarily know? That's a trade

10:04

like anything else that you hard And

10:06

it's a set of skills that I

10:08

have picked up along the way. but

10:10

I'd like to think that. You.

10:13

Know I'm wise enough to know that

10:15

I only have so many stories of

10:17

my own to telling the last time.

10:19

so it's a great privilege to be

10:21

able to deploy those skills towards so

10:23

much else help encapsulate what they want

10:25

to say. So we're talking about of

10:28

a strange form of marriage and that's

10:30

how long does the marriage last? Oh,

10:32

I'm about the length of most. My

10:34

marriage is really between three bumps and

10:36

a year. Eyes.

10:38

It really depends on.

10:42

Who the person is, how busy they

10:44

are, and the nature of the book,

10:46

in and again, how much they want

10:48

to. Hear. What

10:51

they want to convey in the book

10:53

you want a little skill is and

10:55

I suspect and sometimes you're a big

10:57

mess as jamaat be working mums more

10:59

than one at a time. Big me

11:01

as a strong word let's say are

11:03

ethically. Polyamorous.

11:06

As late as the kids say

11:09

this as success or you guys

11:11

now I know that confidentiality you

11:13

prevent you from disclosing all the

11:16

books to fill with the can

11:18

you tell the ancient broadcast about

11:20

a favorite. Absolutely.

11:24

Well I can tell you about. Well I

11:26

would never choose favorites cause I I

11:28

have enjoyed working with each and every

11:31

or every other have ever worked with

11:33

but. Probably. The

11:35

one who's had the most loving impacts both

11:37

on me personally and on the world would

11:40

be Eddie Jackson. Oh. I am

11:42

who. Is no longer with

11:44

us. Bless his memory. But. He

11:46

was the author of the Happiest Man In

11:49

The World. Which was, ah,

11:51

I read, it's with great pleasure.

11:53

Oh what did you think? I

11:55

was pretty good and eighty lived

11:57

long enough to see the book

11:59

out and. Successful Yes,

12:01

He. he. He

12:04

was about a hundred when it came out

12:06

just a for his hundredth birthday. which happens

12:09

unfortunate. Juri locked down. when

12:12

the pandemic struck, but. He

12:14

emerged from that and got to to

12:16

his book and do meteor and meet

12:18

authors and made all these people who

12:20

because the book us at our snus

12:23

have not read it had an incredible

12:25

impact on the world it is and

12:27

had a message of of hope of

12:29

resilience, fortitude of of kindness. The really

12:31

hit at exactly the right moment of

12:33

of the pandemic when people really nice

12:35

little boost and the fact that that

12:38

message got out to people and that

12:40

he was able to meet people who'd

12:42

been touched by it was an incredible.

12:44

Thing it was an extraordinary achievement.

12:47

By Eddie and if I could be

12:50

some small part of them and that

12:52

the joy it gave him in the

12:54

happiness to have his life's work and

12:56

his message of peace and tolerance to

12:59

seminary so far and wide. I mean

13:01

there are few happier. Achievements

13:03

any or to could have most one

13:06

of the great Holocaust survivor stories and

13:08

earth's He was as you say an

13:10

amazing man. Oh and of course he

13:12

sang to in the book He did

13:14

he will he was He was immense

13:16

is as he would say. I was

13:19

truly kind and generous man and he

13:21

insisted that I be acknowledged as as

13:23

as a writer on the book just

13:25

along with the editors and the publicists

13:27

and everyone else who worked on the

13:29

books but us to So he was

13:31

he was that He was a magnanimous.

13:34

So I don't want to have

13:36

too much on the marriage metaphor,

13:38

but that's how do you know

13:40

the relationship is going to work?

13:43

Well like all marriages you dunce pursuit

13:45

you have a pretty good guess. You

13:48

will, you'll see without doubt the and you

13:51

will go on almost a blind dates in

13:53

our it's almost like an arranged marriage and

13:55

the olds sense of it. You'll sit, you'll

13:57

you'll mates, you're talk in you. You

14:00

know, Pretty. Much straight away

14:03

for gonna be a good fit. You

14:05

know you might not see eye to

14:07

eye politically. you you might be the

14:09

right person to help tell. That.

14:11

Voice. You. Know, tell that

14:13

person so to mimic the voice, ah,

14:15

you might not get along inner, you

14:18

might think each other jerks, In which

14:20

case you just walk away. You don't

14:22

consummate the marriage to belabor the metaphor.

14:25

You've been who goes rises,

14:28

who to news would have.

14:30

You'd lose in the process.

14:33

I'm. Gonna I

14:35

know you learn something from

14:37

everyone you've ever worked with.

14:39

Well, I've

14:42

learnt an incredible sense of

14:44

perspective in i haven't worked

14:47

for people from all sources

14:49

ratio, cultural, economic, linguistic, Gender

14:52

backgrounds and so been exposed to

14:54

interrupt us spectra plethora of humanity of

14:57

people I just never would have gotten

14:59

to know in such. An

15:02

intimate ways, the strange hothouse relationship

15:04

between ghosts and also that. Probably.

15:07

The most valuable I think the main would

15:09

be. Of when

15:11

people are writing a book, it's because

15:13

they've retired, or they've come to the

15:15

end of their career. or maybe even

15:17

the end of their life. You know

15:19

someone who has lived a long, rich

15:21

loss and have some sentiment or wisdom

15:23

that they wanna pass on and so.

15:26

When. Is it was someone in you

15:28

bear witness to essential truth of their

15:30

lives in the very raw, unfiltered way.

15:33

I mean what an extraordinary privilege it

15:35

and pay for that kind of perspective.

15:37

I mean I can charge very modest

15:39

say to put it in a book

15:42

for them. For that sinner, that's a

15:44

whole different story. So you have in

15:46

fact will you are in fact in

15:48

someone elses he'd absolutely And winners Are

15:51

you news? Yes yes absolutely It's And

15:53

when you you know when you are

15:55

sharing one. Raggedy Brain that

15:57

way to perspectives you from that

15:59

is. Incredible and you know to

16:01

work with people, have that much distilled

16:04

wisdom and and need you to help

16:06

them channel it into the world. It

16:09

gives you such an extraordinary perspective

16:11

on under unless in a limited

16:13

time we have and what we

16:15

do with it. Somewhat of gifts

16:17

were you talking about to still wisdom

16:20

but it wouldn't always be wisdom

16:22

in their heads. Some in he must

16:24

also from time to time do

16:26

with someone unpleasant to you don't like

16:28

food again. I won't take a

16:30

job if I'm not a good

16:32

fit. With. A person if we're

16:35

not gonna get along than when. Won't

16:37

begin the projects and suddenly like

16:40

any in relationships and get halfway

16:42

through the project and realize that

16:44

things here there's a bit of

16:46

tension. There's always some tension involved

16:48

in any good creative. Punish.

16:50

It wouldn't say. It any

16:52

partnerships absolutely and collaboration of

16:55

any sort of folks is

16:57

dangerous and plump Gilbert and

16:59

Sullivan. My interest is do

17:01

you ever find yourself censoring.

17:04

Yes absolutely. Unfortunately too late to help

17:07

me self censor with my own work

17:09

which is something of so get the

17:11

hang of but most of the first

17:13

writing process is is knowing what not

17:16

to rights you know about memoir first

17:18

as an autobiography. Is.

17:20

Not the story of allies as the

17:22

story of part of a life. It's

17:25

helping someone get to the essential truth

17:27

of what they want to say and

17:29

strip away the a simmer and the

17:31

flotsam and jetsam and get down to

17:34

what they really want to say. For

17:36

example, I'm With the Ready His experience

17:38

of Survival of the Holocaust was remarkable,

17:40

but it was his. His. Wisdom

17:43

is perspective, the sheer strength of

17:45

his moral convictions. That was the

17:48

extraordinary thing about him. Into

17:50

absolutely remarkable and unique thing about him. And

17:52

that's what he wanted to capture the book.

17:54

And that's. That. The task

17:57

for that book was to surprise for to the

17:59

hotter the essential. Innocent the whole thing.

18:01

And you know I like to think

18:03

that we got there, and that's why

18:05

it resonated with such a wider went

18:07

wide range of readers. That's a tongue

18:10

twister when it's her. Until

18:12

who do the Mp But

18:14

does it bother you as

18:17

the ghost written books have

18:19

achieved thus far somewhat more

18:21

successful your own? No, not

18:23

at all. Which sounds like

18:25

a lie I know. But

18:27

again, this job is Toby.

18:29

Humility. And doesn't always the

18:31

case. Like all Rice's I'm raging

18:34

egomaniac, but I heads in. I

18:36

had several formative lessons in in

18:38

taking my eager. Around

18:42

the same time. Just

18:44

by strange coincidence one of the strengths

18:46

bottlenecks and karma that sometimes happen it

18:48

is book came out. In.

18:50

The same sort of publishing

18:53

bracket as my previous. Book.

18:55

With my our name on it.

18:57

I write fiction you know, which

18:59

again is modestly successful, but that

19:01

had come out just at the

19:03

start of the pandemic. That was

19:05

sweetness and light. Sweetness and light.

19:07

Yes, thank you. Ah which was

19:09

a book about travel, a thriller

19:11

set in the world as international

19:13

travel and a came out at

19:15

exact moment when international travel became

19:17

an impossibility. So I had this

19:19

very strange surreal listen in my

19:21

own hubris where the book before

19:23

that which was a historical. Novel

19:25

called the Toymaker have been somewhat

19:27

of a success or I had a

19:30

marketing budget to spend on this book

19:32

on sweetness and lights and I

19:34

was a real breath about it as

19:36

demanded posters and marketing and advertising and

19:39

know brown M and M's in

19:41

my Bowl End airport light walls which

19:43

that you know those moving glowing. Electronic

19:46

post as you seen airports. And

19:49

all those things are delivered by my very

19:51

kind and long suffering publisher. But then the

19:53

pandemic arrived in the whole world, was put

19:56

on us for a year or two, and

19:58

so had the strangest, dispiriting xp. The range

20:00

of flying to melt as it living in

20:02

Sydney at the time. And our

20:04

freezer Melbourne. To begin my me a

20:06

tour and had to immediately get back

20:09

on the plane because everything was cancelled

20:11

and so I recall this eerie moment

20:13

of walking through and if the airport

20:15

with my face all over the walls

20:17

and either side and still full of

20:19

books. copies of my books that would

20:21

never sell which was in a disappointing

20:24

at a time but a lesson in

20:26

again most really important because of the

20:28

same time Eddie's book had cut through

20:30

in this extraordinary way and there's an

20:32

object lesson in the idea. That. It's

20:35

not. Who we are

20:38

in swirled actually it's or you

20:40

know the strength of our ego

20:42

or how same as we can

20:44

make yourselves. It's the quality of

20:46

the works that we do and

20:48

our contribution to the world. New

20:50

mom interested in wrestling through some

20:52

the names the to the people

20:54

that to inspired you one on

20:56

them wasn't a guest on the

20:58

program and come from of times

21:01

had some Douglas Adams oh no

21:03

talk to a lot about humor

21:05

but John Irving magma cause. You

21:07

cast a wide net. Yes, you know

21:09

I was that. I was a big

21:11

reader. As an omnivorous rate

21:14

as child. By. Read

21:16

anything to get my hands on

21:18

and. You know, I

21:20

read with the eyes of a child

21:22

who hasn't yet learn snobbery and doesn't

21:25

make a distinction between what is entertaining

21:27

and fun and what is highbrow literary

21:29

fiction. Sir Very early on a developed

21:31

a taste for. For. Works

21:33

books but also film and

21:36

television and radio audio that.

21:39

That is fun and has a sense of chaos

21:41

and energy and may be exploring. Big.

21:44

Symmetric Bates but also. Doesn't.

21:46

Take itself too seriously and in doing

21:49

so provides a shelter. Take. Everything

21:51

mega Seriously sites. Douglas Adams who what

21:53

a privilege to told him if I

21:55

I never had the chance but I

21:58

would give anything. He

22:01

was hugely influential and you know

22:03

if you follow that back Monty

22:05

Python's as well and and the

22:07

goons the for them The I

22:09

also see David Zadar so new

22:11

list and I'm delighted. The to

22:13

also site Steve Totes who have

22:15

rubbed one of the the novels

22:17

I'm greatly admired so I to

22:19

can't think of the name is

22:21

a highest fraction of a whole

22:23

fraction of the whole what a

22:25

Book or a bull crap that

22:27

was a. Key. Moment of.

22:31

I. Guess activation For me it's like a sleep

22:33

aids and hearing her and activation word. I'd

22:36

always at at Read and always in the

22:38

back of my head wanted to be a

22:40

writer but that was a book that. The

22:43

fact that he was a stroll in, the fact that he.

22:46

Wrote. So eloquently about

22:49

such grimace things

22:51

with this incredibly

22:53

look connect wry.

22:56

Sense of humor was instrumental for

22:58

me a man and costs a

23:00

good him. Shortlisted for the book

23:02

of to See he made a

23:04

secular fit as well which which

23:06

doesn't hurt him? yeah, I bet

23:08

Yeah, I remember reading that book

23:10

have mean recommends it to me

23:13

by a friend and to cel

23:15

one of those really mind blowing

23:17

eye opening exercises in inspiration. Let's

23:19

talk about your latest novel of

23:21

appreciation. What's it about? Oh, it's

23:23

about so much it is. I

23:26

guess the elevator pitch is. it's

23:28

about. Same. And

23:31

Arts and. The. Way

23:33

those two worlds intersect in the way that.

23:35

They. Both. Separately, Break Your Brain.

23:37

It's loosely based in my experiences, a

23:39

Ghost Rider getting to know people who

23:41

have been famous for some time enough.

23:43

been. You. Know grown up

23:46

with the level of fame that affects

23:48

their worldview in good ways and bad

23:50

did not show Premise is there's a.

23:53

An. Australian artist named Ali Darling

23:55

who has enjoyed celebrity his

23:57

whole life but has grown

23:59

some. Jaded with it and

24:02

grows. On careful Mall

24:04

on live Tv and says something that

24:06

is to boot in Australian society. I'll

24:08

leave it up to the Raiders to

24:10

find out what that is but he

24:12

gets himself cancelled and so in an

24:14

effort to rehabilitate his fame he goes

24:16

on a journey with a ghost rider

24:19

and they toured the country. try to

24:21

pick up the bits and pieces of

24:23

his past and rebuild the last for

24:25

him. That sounds very dull but it's

24:27

a comedy asserts very fun. It's and

24:29

as you point out somewhere with to

24:31

move a mountain. Retelling of

24:33

the No Suspects Yes it's a book

24:36

that I roads very early and looked

24:38

down just to tear myself up because

24:40

I could go outside and at the

24:42

time at the very into the works

24:44

of care of us year and a

24:46

slew of the curve as years. Narcissus

24:48

yes I am. Guess what a what

24:50

a and credible painting like that that

24:52

hung on my wall for a while.

24:55

And them. All. These

24:57

issues that we've spoken about this

25:00

conversation in at this moment of

25:02

humility and ego death that I

25:04

had coupled with the fact that

25:06

I was talking to very famous

25:08

people all day long gave me

25:10

some perspective on these things and

25:12

that it made me wonder about

25:14

my own tendencies towards narcissism and

25:17

foolishness in or in pursuing fame

25:19

and success and artistic glory at

25:21

the expense of all else and

25:23

serve. As was. Reading.

25:25

That Soya realize that ah, the story

25:27

of rise and fall and of a

25:29

man who is doomed. By. His

25:32

inability to look away from his own reflection.

25:35

Which you know is certainly something.

25:38

Any rider with the tendency towards solipsism

25:40

is going to struggle with but again

25:42

this generation to generation that have grown

25:45

up with in the one that comes

25:47

after me you know who have burn

25:49

it was social media and the internet

25:51

and the expectation that your personalities also

25:54

a product in a brand to be

25:56

disseminated to the world. The.

25:58

Story of Narcissus. Looms large

26:00

in just the existential. Reality.

26:03

A being young other, I'm

26:05

fairly young anymore, but this

26:07

race an incredibly urbane to

26:09

my age. so I they

26:12

are sisters. Miss would also

26:14

become very useful to Sigmund

26:16

Freud. You're opening paragraph four,

26:18

sir. Pulling your i think

26:20

paragraphs, there are only. So.

26:22

Many ways to make the

26:24

story worth. Couldn't do you

26:27

elaborate by saying well, you

26:29

can tell rags to riches

26:31

to your riches to rags.

26:33

It's a story of redemption.

26:35

Cinderella stories. Yes, you know

26:38

that's me being cheeky somewhat because the

26:40

book is in away. All.

26:42

Those things in one the same time.

26:44

It's A. It's a story of mythmaking.

26:47

It's a story of a nosy battler.

26:49

It's a love story. It's a queer

26:51

love story of a base had for

26:54

sexual love story. It's a comedy is

26:56

tragedy. It's a very crowded silly book

26:58

that I tried to succeed much in

27:00

and maybe pulled us success. Success Know

27:03

another line from the book and I

27:05

quote. He's been

27:07

falling apart but also

27:10

informing upwards towards a

27:12

greater understanding of himself.

27:14

That sounds like you.

27:17

Oh yes, at absolutely. As much as I

27:19

hate to admit it, anytime you're at a

27:22

novel, it's looking in the mirror. It's the

27:24

narcissism that I was trying to lampoon here.

27:26

You know there's a part of me in

27:28

all of my novels, but probably more of

27:30

me in this one than any other. In

27:33

that the main character, Ali Darling,

27:35

a sort of a funhouse mirror

27:37

reflection of the worst parts of

27:39

me in his veins. loyal craven

27:42

status, hungry unaware of his own

27:44

privilege, but still trying his best.

27:47

It's a realization has come. I think with a

27:49

little bit Asian a hope it's with some bits.

27:51

You know when I look in the mirror each

27:53

morning I'm reminded that one can go through life

27:56

with the best of intentions and still be a

27:58

schmuck. Eunice I had a lot of. In

28:00

Lockdown when I was reading this

28:02

novel. And if you're going to

28:05

be wrestling with that part of

28:07

yourself existentially, than you may as

28:09

well make fun of it and

28:11

make a novel. Liam, thank you

28:14

for losing his look over your

28:16

shoulder at the reflection in the

28:18

Fun house mirror and a Been

28:21

Talking To Liam People author and

28:23

ghostwriter and Liam Smoke Appreciation not

28:25

ghostwritten, but of very personal effort

28:28

is published by Penguin Random House.

28:31

Coming up the a micro

28:33

history of the cargo ship

28:35

The Eight when fox. Over

29:21

the years we have done

29:23

oodles and oodles of the

29:26

tourism history with an ancient

29:28

history mosques strain, industry, imaginative

29:31

history, social history but we

29:33

have seriously neglected micro history

29:35

and for that I humbly

29:38

apologised and change that and

29:40

tells the story of an

29:43

unremarkable sailing ship from the

29:45

early nineteenth century on June.

29:48

by Point of Boyd, it.

29:50

Is a year associate professor

29:52

at the Department of History

29:54

at York University in Toronto

29:56

and co sets of the

29:59

Edwin Fault. How

30:01

an ordinary sailing ship. Connected.

30:04

The Wound In an age

30:06

of globalization and to demonstrate

30:08

globalization he's and during his

30:10

from I'm in June and

30:12

I welcome you to have

30:14

Little Ones programs before we.

30:17

Talk. About the Edwin folks,

30:19

a little history on micro

30:22

history. What exactly is it.

30:26

Allegra history amounts to history. That

30:28

was, I knew it, I think

30:30

are literally and eight Nineteen seventies

30:32

and eighties. I'm a group of

30:34

scholars who wanted to think about

30:37

a new way of writing history

30:39

at a way that would depart

30:41

from the large social history that

30:43

are that kind of dominated the

30:46

historical professor at the time and

30:48

Michael historians of they wanted to

30:50

focus tightly on bounded subjects on

30:52

a individual villages towns and they

30:54

wanted to. Bring. The

30:57

attention away from large data sets and

30:59

census level kind of the doctor The

31:01

study of large classes and of mass

31:03

is a group of people and bring

31:06

us down to to the individual level.

31:09

Do I do sports? Large questions

31:11

through individuals and they want to

31:13

use primary sources in a in

31:15

a very intense way. I'm a

31:17

microsd or is also wanted to

31:20

a the reader a long on

31:22

the voyage and it's a bit

31:24

of the process of discovery ah

31:26

that they were themselves taking part

31:28

in and they wanted use creative

31:30

writing. they wanted to develop distinctive

31:32

narrative voices and to to really

31:34

bring the reader a long. In.

31:37

The storytelling and investigative process. Story

31:40

and. Booed. To

31:42

new of give me one or

31:45

two examples of were a micro

31:47

history approach has been opposed. By

31:50

I think one of the classic

31:52

examples is Linda Collies a story

31:55

of Lisbon Marks Good as a

31:57

eighteenth century English woman who traveled

31:59

it. Extensively around the world

32:01

across four continents and said it

32:03

hurt her life became a fine

32:06

example of looking closely at the

32:08

expense of a single or Englishwoman.

32:11

Exceptional, but a single an Englishwoman

32:13

to tell the history of the

32:15

era dumped Another example of this

32:18

is perhaps more close to my

32:20

own interests of the history books

32:22

days and is my dad's enough

32:25

recent history of Dose of Conrad

32:27

and the A to Steam. And

32:30

would see follows the authors of Life

32:32

and Career and uses it as a

32:34

kind of lens to. To

32:37

talk about the larger developments

32:39

of late nineteenth century this

32:41

know put to micro history

32:44

into practice. know movie and

32:46

remarkable who ordinary serving soups

32:48

why did the it would

32:50

folks a cracked your attention.

32:54

With the urban foxes the rarest of thing for

32:56

his door and of fine. Or

32:58

as completely average example of

33:00

it's called. The ship

33:02

was on remarkable com it was

33:04

built and eighteen sixty three and

33:07

I'm afraid union dog from the

33:09

whom we river across from Calcutta

33:11

than standard building material the time

33:13

for ships coming out of India

33:15

with his teeth. As

33:17

a pretty remarkable material and

33:20

seek is a hardwood, it's

33:22

resistant to. Are many forms

33:25

abroad as a truly excellent material to make

33:27

as a shit, especially the one the ship

33:29

to last a long time. And

33:31

as an as have had

33:34

such a remarkable series of

33:36

tasks to before I understand

33:38

to he took indentured cooley

33:41

labor's from turns broad convicts

33:43

to western systems to New

33:45

Zealand. Yeah, the

33:48

the career of the among fox

33:50

is truly global history or read

33:52

small. And. He said of Policing

33:54

thirty three ten I've seen for

33:56

chair is participate in in some

33:59

analysts I. It aspects

34:01

of globalization late nineteenth

34:03

century it to Cooley's

34:05

ah, it's participated in

34:08

the comics or transportation

34:10

networks aren't any carried

34:12

nearly every conceivable commodity

34:15

Would we soldiers are

34:17

coffee? see. A brief

34:19

seed everything even imagine of and

34:21

from eighteen. In beginning these and

34:24

seventy a series of migrants from

34:26

the Uk. To. New Zealand. And

34:29

then after his career at the ceiling

34:31

sick came to an end. In

34:33

the eighteen eighties and it was

34:35

sealed down to New Zealand for

34:37

one last com. Which. Was

34:40

to participate in the beginning of

34:42

the Global Food of Frozen Food

34:44

System. Are in the

34:46

age of eighteen nineties the ship

34:49

was turned into a floating freezing

34:51

bethel were of his five thousand

34:53

seats were frozen every day in

34:55

his whole is stored. There are

34:58

for vessel transport back to table

35:00

in London or in New York

35:02

and elsewhere. So

35:04

who we have a round

35:07

both students who uses declaring

35:09

a lot of Jammu to

35:11

those who was it was

35:13

the glamorous clippers luck because

35:15

he saw kept the public

35:18

image. He has

35:20

said that could indicate network network feel.

35:22

You can look at the history of

35:24

shipping and of globalization through the lens

35:26

of the Cook Cadiz darken other famous

35:29

shit like that. But. You wouldn't

35:31

really get a sense of what it

35:33

was like to be on and normal

35:35

ship. An average ship and the oven

35:37

forces that are completely average. Unremarkable. Bethel

35:40

was Macys the perfect. A case study

35:42

for a micro history. Of

35:44

Globalization. Will

35:46

One Things I learned from

35:48

you and this is to

35:50

on find This absolutely to

35:52

mod isn't the icy Macys

35:54

the moon folks Prince boot

35:56

this New Zealand's wouldn't that

35:58

temples about system. The and the

36:01

people who bought them. Absolutely

36:03

right that they don't get a wonderful

36:06

story. a wonderful way of looking at.

36:09

The history of Globalization. So in in

36:11

a say one the Urban foxes bring

36:13

a shipment of pianos to the South

36:15

Island of New Zealand as as a

36:18

time you this is a period of

36:20

time and when when settlers were trying

36:22

it was seeking to transform New Zealand

36:24

into a into a minister England if

36:27

you will on and and part of

36:29

process was they want to bring the

36:31

trappings in the symbols of their culture.

36:34

And what could be a more

36:36

perfect symbol of of the Korean

36:39

of the Victorian world. Than.

36:41

As the that a Piano the

36:43

kind of the be treasured canon

36:45

of middle class values and the

36:48

the the morality of music the

36:50

calls intimate is the dumbest his

36:52

feet and the the terrorists peers

36:54

and work ethic. Anyone listening oestrogens

36:57

loosely will be reminded of course

36:59

during Campins films The Piano which

37:01

begins with a memorable image of

37:03

an English premier know pool water.

37:06

Absolute. As

37:09

those the piano was this of

37:11

course is important symbol of colonial

37:13

of them but the piano was

37:16

also a mass produce consumer items

37:18

with a was the result of

37:21

long same have prayed and commodity

37:23

and was. Essential I'm

37:25

materials that went into the production

37:27

of a piano of course is

37:30

ivory. Or that the piano keys

37:32

in south and I read this beautiful

37:34

and durable ah material with called the

37:36

plastic of his age ah the time

37:38

because ivory could be used for so

37:40

many different thing but I breathe the

37:42

court has a long and doubt history

37:44

of it's own. I agree with came

37:46

out of out of Africa and was

37:48

the. The result obviously have

37:51

an ivory hunters who pursued elephants

37:53

and and killed them for their

37:55

top. Some with his

37:57

own useless was used for cool.

38:00

They choose your buttons heavens above

38:02

the billiard balls and the endless

38:04

on the number of elephants it

38:06

will mess a good for destroyed

38:09

his since his or inspiring. Canada,

38:11

thousands of of elephants were slaughtered

38:14

every year for the for the

38:16

ever growing ivory industry in the

38:18

late nineteenth century. And of course

38:21

this put tremendous pressure on the

38:23

on the African elephant populations and.

38:26

In order to find ever more

38:28

elephants on that the the hundred

38:30

had to go deeper and deeper

38:33

into into into Central Africa. So

38:35

ivory is not a nice to

38:37

denounce in elephant blood but also

38:39

in human but because you tell

38:41

us about the armies of the

38:44

for many them and slaved who

38:46

were essential in this mess is

38:48

crude. Yeah yeah that the in

38:50

order to brainy or the ivory

38:53

to the park and then ability

38:55

to to the. Market for relevancy

38:57

to the in the factories in

38:59

a court has be carried from

39:01

in Central Africa ah often by

39:03

a slave quarters who carried the

39:06

under back and large caravan tried

39:08

putting these huge elephant tusks across

39:10

the data on and then if

39:12

they were are forte they they

39:14

survived button but many did not.

39:16

That the jury and then many

39:19

were themselves sold into slavery alongside

39:21

the the I agree that they

39:23

were carrying. So do the Heart

39:25

of Darkness. And for dying,

39:27

I can remember seeing early

39:30

photographs of slaves carrying these

39:32

huge tasks and lumens. Yeah.

39:35

It's actually one of the iconic images

39:38

that we have them the runway like

39:40

insisted Century Africa. Know

39:42

the human misery. Cool spot, the

39:45

ivory trade costly but the impact

39:47

on the a college he was

39:50

profound and devastating. One.

39:52

Of the amazing things about elephant them

39:54

and we don't the well it off

39:56

Enough is that elephants are one of

39:58

the great terraforming species. On

40:00

the planet after human below say

40:02

they consume massive amounts of of

40:04

foliage every day as much as

40:07

two hundred and sixty or Doryman

40:09

two hundred seventy kilograms of entities.

40:11

Nice day and to do so,

40:13

they have to knock down trees

40:15

and of our bras and ah

40:17

and process of course the pre

40:19

grasslands. Armies of and neither

40:21

did the the as a lot

40:24

of lords and the great for

40:26

the battle of Eastern Africa good

40:28

the death of these millions of

40:30

elephant for their cause I'm resulted

40:32

in our see the a massive

40:34

ecological transformation in the regions and

40:36

in one a t reformation the

40:39

brawn on was that it spreads

40:41

the the amount of growth of

40:43

of of percent of of small

40:45

trees on and these these reasons

40:47

mean environments has been conquering the

40:49

Africa are. The perfect. Environment

40:52

for the Tsetse Fly. Under

40:55

Cc fly down as some people

40:57

may know is be primary doctor

40:59

for a disease known as sleeping

41:01

sickness. As. Sleeping sickness

41:04

is why these great. Scourge

41:06

of the late nineteenth century Africa.

41:09

Ah, it's a neurological condition and

41:11

that results in swelling of the

41:13

brain. Was. A Macys his if

41:15

untreated, will lead to death. And

41:18

the city park by grew and

41:20

been in. A population

41:22

and in this dispersal other and

41:24

know of the ivory trade and

41:26

as result of that. Are.

41:29

Hundreds of thousands of people died, if

41:31

not millions of people died of sleeping

41:33

sickness. As the when

41:35

we think about that piano that the

41:37

of of Parks took into New Zealand.

41:40

In order to bring being this be

41:42

korean society is a to the news

41:44

and record our call me in the

41:47

Pacific We have to think about

41:49

these long for a God Gabi long

41:51

strand of of violence. And

41:53

of ecological change and a colonial

41:56

of them. Sit tight spaces and

41:58

try allies and societies. Far

42:00

from where the fuck up

42:02

for sale? My guest is

42:04

a void cause from Buddhism.

42:07

Associate professor of his strengths

42:09

in the Department of History

42:11

at York University in Toronto

42:13

and he's coauthor of the

42:15

Edwin Fox have an ordinary

42:17

sailing ship connected the world

42:19

in the age of will,

42:22

the age of globalization. Eighteen,

42:24

Fifty two, nineteen fourteen Now

42:26

since go back to New

42:28

Zealand because as well. As

42:30

bringing pianos to the shores

42:33

it also brought new settlers.

42:35

Tell me about it's importance

42:37

that. Yes

42:39

they than ever fox brought new

42:41

color to a New Zealand and

42:44

on this is all part of

42:46

a large on immigration steamed with

42:48

provided by the colonial politician a

42:50

Jewish logo on as a goal

42:52

is to court brain subtler to

42:54

new deal it. On everly

42:57

rehired Six like a lot box at

42:59

his subtitles or the transport of of

43:01

a subtler and one of them will

43:03

as a summer name's Margaret William How

43:05

things. Are max he came

43:07

over and eighty seven the A ah

43:09

out of on of ways their eyes

43:12

him as he settled on near our

43:14

recent and worked in the gold fields

43:16

around there I'm and has since he

43:18

was of both a system could vote

43:21

for the court as fiddle cornwall on

43:23

and she was both a fervent evangelical

43:25

so that see holding Methodist are as

43:27

it was also added that her church

43:30

groups are one of the things that

43:32

Margaret did with she helped found the

43:34

local branch of the Williams. Of

43:37

the Women's Christian Temperance Union.

43:39

In that capacity see opened

43:41

a hotel was offered us

43:43

see coffee. And pie that

43:46

all time to the temperance public's I'm so

43:48

clearly there is no as there are no

43:50

cocktail, beer or wine for felt at this

43:52

particular hotel. I'm guessing gone

43:55

missing been like micro history moon

43:57

moon with with. Say

44:00

what a Wonderful limits. We're

44:03

all equal work from this a

44:05

boarding house in the store. She

44:08

also of course I'm a organize

44:10

to be a like minded people

44:12

of the temperance movement in one

44:14

of the the primary activity as

44:16

she pushed for was women's right

44:19

to vote as you go round

44:21

with other local suffragists ah and

44:23

try to collect signatures. For.

44:25

The effort to secure the right for

44:27

women to vote in New Zealand or

44:30

with they did. And in each ninety

44:32

three and one an amazing thing about

44:34

for follow the story of Margaret often

44:36

does that even fine How this. Simple

44:39

person who had his as

44:41

a for boarding house was

44:43

he played a small role

44:45

in this large on historical

44:47

movement with was be after

44:49

to secure women the right

44:51

to vote. booed listener look

44:53

good to it when folks

44:55

and strange because he do

44:57

prince food convicts to wi

44:59

to me about these eighteen

45:01

fifty eight boosts. Yeah,

45:04

Sylvia Naval Forces was one of

45:06

i'm talking about eighteen shipped to

45:08

convict. To work for Australia. Arm

45:11

and a detailed and eighteen fifty

45:13

eight on photography cause in the

45:15

story of conduct a transport his

45:17

his well cold as long been

45:20

a part of after a history

45:22

though as be focused more and

45:24

easter in the west Western Australia

45:26

was a place where the the

45:29

transportation a convict was with a

45:31

very important of for the development

45:33

of the local economy. But

45:36

it was also very important for the

45:38

space and of the colony be needed

45:40

labor they needed. Has to

45:42

do that work until the cop knows

45:44

the convicts played that role. But

45:46

the the story of the of

45:48

the fox arriving Western Australia. Also.

45:51

Converges, Are connected to another.

45:54

Large story in Australia history with

45:56

is the. The. Colonization

45:59

of. The indigenous people there,

46:01

the aboriginal people of what throw throw

46:03

yeah as the one is the remarkable

46:05

things about be eating cookies boys that

46:08

we discovered was caught. On

46:10

Christmas Eve, making a T a. The

46:13

Evelyn Farkas preparing to leave and to drop

46:15

off the convict I'm and was prepared to

46:17

lead and on that same day. Another

46:19

sip preston a ride and aboard

46:21

the press the person with a

46:24

with a small coastal ship and

46:26

to travel along the coast of

46:28

weapons room but on that day

46:30

it was brief for aboriginal prisoners

46:32

to serve three or two to

46:34

three or sentences at the local

46:36

aboriginal jail on nearby rotten of

46:39

islands. In Arab and are telling

46:41

of the story when we look at the the

46:43

aboriginal prisoners and at the com because we see

46:45

a lot of parallels. With. A lot

46:47

parallels between between these be two

46:49

groups. On the one hand you

46:52

have men who were transported for

46:54

for see wrong with of third

46:56

crimes. For example one

46:59

as had this man named on

47:01

the unseen with was sent to

47:03

served ten years in prison, a

47:05

presentation for feeling three and de

47:07

sac. And when we look

47:10

at the aboriginal prisoner they also often

47:12

times for said for absurd reason this

47:14

is a door din. Who receive

47:16

system of hard labor? I run it

47:18

for possessing an empty jin bottle. Filled

47:22

in a lot of ways we

47:24

saw parallels between the com this

47:26

and the aboriginal people who were

47:28

both subject to this will be

47:30

my call car serial colonial a

47:32

system of prison than and colonialism

47:34

intertwined. A when we

47:36

looked at the lies in the stories of

47:39

be com Big and a bit aboriginal progress

47:41

we also saw the psychological toll. That

47:43

are the system of the of imprisonment.

47:46

Put on both of them, And

47:48

here we have for example the case

47:50

of Thomas personnel who were the An

47:52

Iris soldier who had served in the

47:54

Crimean war that got court court martial

47:56

for attacking his superior officer and when

47:58

he arrived and freemantle. The. I

48:01

was forced to work in the kitchen

48:03

I'm and he clearly was very unhappy

48:05

in that situation and probably suffering from

48:07

some some kind of mental illness on

48:10

his life went from bad to worse

48:12

I'm he was punished for for small

48:14

are at the discretion was only let

48:16

him to defeat and worth action resistance

48:19

including a one point stabbing a warden

48:21

with a thirteen and stone. I have

48:23

a seat for this last crime. He

48:26

was hey, listen to die. As

48:28

the same time we look at the aboriginal prisoner.

48:31

They. Also suffered tremendous mental

48:33

and emotional hardship during their

48:35

in pregnant around the island.

48:38

And hero read if you if you will

48:40

if you allow me a reader of for

48:42

package From what a one man and civil

48:45

engineer named Cherry Tree observed about the average

48:47

a labour government rotten of violence. He

48:49

says quote. The prisoners will

48:52

sit down and week most bitterly.

48:54

For to free old men. For. Those

48:56

who have left wives and children on the

48:59

mainland. When they see the

49:01

smoke from fires at the place where

49:03

they had been accustomed to me when

49:05

sampled and free. Memory wandered

49:07

over the seen a bygone days. They

49:10

seem intensely alive to they're locked freedom.

49:12

And lamenting. Be. Well, their

49:15

captivity. Booed. Lists

49:17

know I'm warden the you did

49:19

limbs and look at when folks

49:21

in of the wide world for

49:24

my team fifty two nineteen fourteen

49:26

because beyond wi you New Zealand

49:29

would do some soup temin suburbs

49:31

the rapidly changing move he between

49:33

insisting that importing this is the

49:36

really the fourth grade age of

49:38

globalisation on world history and during

49:40

that period time the world changed

49:43

and I'm pregnant had way. More

49:47

people than ever before travel long

49:49

distances across the ocean. I'm out

49:51

of necessity or inserts a better

49:54

lives. Are more goods

49:56

were traded to more places. Be.

49:58

On assists the move. The thing that people

50:01

are it was also period timing was. Large.

50:03

Parts of the world came under colonial rule.

50:06

European. As well as

50:08

a sudden the Japanese Americans suggested more

50:11

parts the world than ever before. To

50:13

colonial rule and in the process to

50:15

just for that the dishes people in

50:17

Math. This. Year these

50:19

crucial decade between eating fifty that's

50:22

unfortunate are also a period of

50:24

new technologies like steamship. The telegraph

50:26

was all me all the possible.

50:29

Was also period in which ideas good

50:31

than information traveled more quickly than ever

50:33

before. But the

50:35

remaking the world. The com that that happened

50:37

during his ears. Also resulted and

50:40

we've discussed in environmental change on a

50:42

massive scale. And is a

50:44

globally ever plan to create a tremendous wealth on

50:46

a scale never before seen. It. Was

50:49

not even least shared. And

50:51

as part of the story of

50:53

globalization well from the rapid expansion,

50:55

intense case of trade around the

50:57

globe to the spread of industrialization

50:59

and the integrated semicolon Peter Markets.

51:02

This is what global they look like in the

51:04

late nineteenth century. And this is

51:06

the story that the other with Fox

51:08

allow that to tell coinciding perfectly. To

51:11

loosen would never forgive me for the most

51:13

you would became of the use it when.

51:17

It's a wonderful story

51:19

you can today. Still,

51:22

Go and visit the Of on Fox. The

51:25

sit at the end of his career

51:27

they mentioned earlier had gone to New

51:29

Zealand be parted the frozen food trade

51:32

on at the freezing cold and after

51:34

his time in that industry came to

51:36

an end. It was abandoned

51:38

for awhile. Auto in a little

51:41

harbor called see Spirit Bay on

51:43

itself island of the New Zealand.

51:45

And eventually, ah, in the in

51:47

the nineteen sixties, a local group

51:50

of historians realize that they had

51:52

this remarkable ship sitting right in

51:54

their inner harbor abandoned. And

51:56

they recruited the vessel. And they still

51:58

it into a other into. The carburetor in a

52:00

place called Fit A New Zealand. And

52:03

according to dry dock. And. There remains

52:05

today at the new other and when fox

52:07

museum and bigger of can go there and if

52:09

you ever want to take a ferry from them

52:11

from the North Island to the South Island.

52:14

He will take that's very and will drop

52:16

you off about one hundred fifty meters. Or

52:18

be able to. I hope

52:21

you don't see him. Thank

52:23

you very much food. The

52:26

soup a fascinating encounter. an

52:28

introduction to my crew. He

52:31

streets and the global connections

52:33

does unremarkable. It's

52:36

remarkable sailing ships. My

52:38

guess is being booed.

52:40

Conference Associate professor of

52:42

History and York University

52:45

in Toronto and he's

52:47

cool of the Edwin

52:49

Fox. Oh, an ordinary

52:51

send me to connect the

52:54

world in the age of

52:56

globalization. Eighteen fifty two, nineteen

52:59

fourteen and it's published by

53:01

the year University of North

53:03

Carolina. Another example of. Thanks

53:07

Point! On

53:10

and next of whom he

53:12

makes will be finding out

53:14

about some of the most

53:16

Renzi cool convicts that was

53:18

sent to strode you for

53:20

political crimes as part of

53:22

a new exhibition and then

53:24

an update on a more

53:26

recent The Tories crime. Easy

53:29

Street Moot. Even.

53:57

Listening to an Ab Say podcast, he can.

54:00

Discover more A say Podcasts live radio

54:02

and exclusive on the A B C.

54:04

Listen out.