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more details. So

1:08

I'm a day or fight back against the

1:10

tenth The same her and her career at

1:12

another front end that are tearing up on

1:14

the sand and a jagged revamped Our fans

1:16

lawyers why don't you A special edition A

1:18

lark I live. So

1:29

we knew all that we're going to be

1:32

coming out rival we didn't actually know the

1:34

this explosive For this amount of time Trump's

1:36

team attempting a full on assault. I'm sorry

1:38

I was credibility I now day fourteen a

1:41

bit hush money trial. Transitory.

1:43

If there's a necklace who was the one

1:45

grilling the analyst for hours trying to paint

1:47

her as being only in it for the

1:49

money, trying to make it appear as if

1:51

she had a huge vendetta against Trump? Try

1:53

to make or appear very unstable and try

1:55

to tarnish, are, work as an adult film

1:57

actress and director and throw it all stormy.

2:00

wasn't having it. She was defiant

2:02

throughout. She stood her ground and

2:04

defended her character in spite of

2:06

the oncoming assault. And in one

2:08

of the more combative exchanges, necklace

2:10

going after Daniels about whether she

2:12

made up everything about Trump necklace

2:15

asking. So you have a lot

2:18

of experience in making phony stories

2:20

about sex appear real, right? Daniels

2:22

responded, wow, I'm it. Well,

2:24

that's not how I would put it. The

2:26

sex in the films is very much real, just

2:29

like what happened to me in that

2:31

room. Look, we knew that

2:34

Trump's team wanted to appear aggressive and going

2:36

after Daniels. But here's the thing I've been

2:38

thinking about. What if their

2:40

strategy actually helps the prosecution's case? I

2:42

mean, if the defense wants the jury

2:45

to believe, and they do, that this

2:47

woman is all about the money. She

2:50

only cared about that and her bottom line,

2:52

that she was ruthless and

2:55

shrewd and had every intention in making

2:57

sure the story got out there somehow,

2:59

some way it cost to anyone but

3:01

herself. Well, isn't that exactly

3:04

what central casting would look like for the person

3:06

that you'd want to pay off to keep quiet?

3:09

Tonight, we will dig into how that could

3:11

play into the jury's thinking and speaking of

3:13

intense testimony. We also heard from a Trump

3:15

insider who worked in the White House just

3:17

outside the Oval Office, by the way, and

3:20

her name, Madeline Westerhout. And

3:22

the prosecution is using her to try

3:24

to connect the dots of what this

3:26

case is really about. For those of

3:28

you who forgot, with all the details

3:30

that have been coming in, it's about

3:32

falsified business records and the

3:34

34 counts of it. The

3:37

scheme, all to try to keep

3:39

Stormy Daniels quiet and hide it

3:42

according to prosecutors from the transparency

3:44

of an election. And her

3:46

testimony, by the way, it did lay some

3:48

of the groundwork for trying to bridge that

3:50

gap and connect the dots. But she also

3:53

showed that she wasn't there to tear down

3:55

the former president. Even crying, she described her

3:57

White House departure. crying

4:00

and shouting back and forth witnesses.

4:02

That wasn't enough. The judge,

4:04

well, he scolded the defense again after

4:07

the jury left. He rejected two

4:09

motions brought by Trump's team. One

4:11

was a modified gag order, so

4:13

Trump could now talk publicly about

4:15

somebody who was no longer a

4:17

prospective or future witness, but a

4:19

past witness, Sammy Daniels, and

4:22

yet another move for a mistrial based

4:24

on what they thought was the unlawful

4:27

and wide scope of questioning that

4:29

came in about the details of

4:31

the alleged sexual encounter and beyond.

4:33

A lot to unpack. We

4:35

just got the right group to do all of

4:37

it. We've got CNN senior crime and

4:39

justice reporter, Caitlin Polance, CNN

4:41

opinion contributor and former House

4:43

GOP investigative committee counsel, Sophia

4:45

Nelson, former Trump attorney, Jim

4:48

Trusty, CNN political commentator, Karen

4:50

Fenny, and former Republican Congressman,

4:52

Joe Walsh. All of you have

4:54

to have shorter titles because my mouth's clean. Like,

4:57

they're all here. Next time, they're all here.

4:59

The gang is here. Right? Yeah, they are.

5:01

So, thank you for coming. So great to

5:03

have you. I'll start with you, Jim. You're

5:06

the best one-liner. Tell me about this.

5:08

So first of all, they needed

5:10

to try to discredit Stormy. That's the whole

5:12

point of the cross. But

5:14

a really effective cross is one where you

5:17

just get yes and no responses. Stormy,

5:20

she was talkative. She was defiant,

5:22

at times combative. Why did

5:24

they spend so much time with someone who,

5:27

technically according to falsified documents

5:29

themselves, is irrelevant? Right.

5:32

I mean, the relationships are irrelevant. The fact

5:34

that there was an NDA is not disputed.

5:37

I think there was a shift of strategy that's not

5:39

great. I mean, I've preached from the beginning, if you're

5:41

on the defense side of this, your

5:44

entire strategy is make it a

5:46

referendum on Michael Cohen. The entire

5:48

case rises or falls on his

5:50

credibility. That's the perfect battlefield. I

5:52

mean, you can cross-examine him for seven or

5:54

eight months and still be getting good points.

5:57

Please don't do that. No, no, no. We're

5:59

going to be done. about 2025. But he's

6:02

a target rich environment. It's gonna be a lot

6:05

of fun to cross examine him. But you want

6:07

the jury to be thinking the only way we

6:09

convict is if we believe this guy. And I

6:11

have to say from the other witnesses, not Stormy,

6:14

it does seem to be gravitating towards he's the

6:16

guy that can supposedly deliver this kind of cryptic

6:18

theory of what's going on with the ledger and

6:20

the check entries. So I think what happened is

6:23

they started off kind of disciplined, then they had

6:25

the ability to regroup over time. And they're talking

6:27

to the client as well. And they're thinking, any

6:29

client, probably has

6:32

a fairly opinionated client. But

6:34

they're looking at it and they're saying, boy, she

6:36

got in a bunch of gratuitous stuff, like the

6:38

original discipline was let's not object too much. Let's

6:41

not make it look like she's hurting. Well, that

6:43

let her get into all these insane, vivid details

6:45

that hurt. So they come back after

6:47

the break and go, we got to go strong after

6:49

her. And so you know, this is played out with

6:52

the mistrial motion as well, that strategy of kind of

6:54

taking it on the chin, but acting like it doesn't

6:56

hurt, and then trying to come back

6:58

and open and essentially opening doors with your cross

7:00

examination for a harmful redirect. So it kind of

7:03

spiraled into a different case for a few hours

7:05

with this cross examination. I don't think that was

7:07

particularly helpful. But I will say she's also a

7:09

fairly target rich environment. I mean, when you have

7:12

somebody on the stand, talking about how she's been

7:14

talking to dead people and getting paid for that,

7:16

there's going to be some New York jurors that

7:18

are like this Ouija board crap is, well, they

7:20

might not say crap, and this Ouija board stuff

7:23

is really getting kind of silly and crazy. I

7:25

can't trust this woman. The problem again, for

7:27

the fact they spent too much time dignifying

7:29

her as a witness for a case that's

7:31

about paper entries. I mean, I, I have

7:33

to love six cents. It was a hell of

7:35

a movie. Yeah, I see that.

7:37

You know why that happened, right? Trump went

7:39

into the room and went crazy on his

7:41

lawyers and said, you go after her and

7:43

you deal with her. And that's exactly what

7:46

happened. And that's why you had all this

7:48

focus on Stormy Daniels to your point when

7:50

you shouldn't have. And I think

7:52

they hurt themselves actually the fence that I think

7:54

will be interesting to see what they do to

7:56

Cohen, but I think she heard him. I mean,

7:58

it was the way that they went after her. And

8:01

I gotta tell you, maybe it's because

8:03

I have been a sex prosecutor before

8:06

Karen. And one of the

8:08

topic people often will use is

8:11

they, in their defense, will try to do

8:13

and say anything. To try to

8:16

suggest that somehow the person who is stating

8:19

that there has been a sexual encounter, and this

8:21

is not someone who's claimed sexual assault or rape,

8:23

she has said that this is consensual, she's repeated

8:26

it over and over in the crossing that she's

8:28

not a victim. But they were

8:30

intent on trying to talk about the number

8:32

of sexual porn that she

8:34

had done to get to the partner

8:36

count. They were trying to have the

8:38

jurors be disgusted by her. And I

8:40

gotta tell you, jurors, they're

8:42

not prudes. And I don't know, do they actually

8:45

think themselves, I have to

8:47

think you're disgusting to believe you.

8:49

Well, also it was

8:51

a time-tested tactic, right? Attacking

8:53

a woman for having sex,

8:55

for having what some might

8:57

think is too much sex,

9:00

or rough sex, or

9:02

getting paid for sex, or all of

9:04

it, and they were trying to make

9:06

it all very unseemly to go

9:09

after her credibility. But I

9:11

kept thinking, y'all could have avoided this whole thing

9:13

if you just would have stipulated to the fact

9:15

that they had sex. We would not have had

9:17

to hear any of it, but Trump won't do

9:19

that, right? Fundamentally he

9:21

says it never happened. And so

9:23

that is why we've had two

9:26

days of testimony from Stormy Daniels,

9:28

and you're right. Who

9:30

knows how the jurors took it? One

9:32

thing that struck me was just

9:35

from the tone and tenor of

9:37

how the defense

9:39

attorneys were questioning Stormy

9:41

Daniels versus HOPEX versus,

9:44

right? For some of the women

9:46

on the jury, they might

9:48

have recognized that, so you're gonna

9:50

bully this woman, and you're gonna

9:53

coddle these other women. Now I understand

9:55

that. I'm not told by the way we're

9:57

the same age now, or when they

9:59

started, perhaps. she was when she had this

10:01

alleged encounter and he was like to that point

10:03

Caitlin I want to hear from you because

10:06

I am constantly wondering when there are two jurors

10:08

you got to please right you got to please

10:10

the the 18 that are in the room and

10:12

convince them there's gonna be 12 ultimately who will

10:14

decide the case you got the larger court of

10:17

public opinion and the electorate what's more

10:19

important to the Trump campaign trying

10:21

to prove that he did not have

10:23

sexual relations with this person or

10:26

without the Clinton a good or or or was it that

10:32

but this is a weaponized government well

10:35

doesn't actually address this with just the

10:37

lawyers at the end after the jury

10:39

leaves and says to them I don't

10:41

know why you guys weren't objecting more

10:44

whenever these facts were first coming out

10:46

not only were you not objecting as

10:48

these details are coming out into the

10:50

record from Stormy Daniels the stuff that's

10:52

making Donald Trump embarrassed as a candidate

10:55

his lawyers are saying that to the

10:57

judge he's embarrassed this candidate he wants

10:59

to be able to publicly talk more

11:01

to refute her story and

11:04

they didn't and they reminded the jurors

11:06

today during the cross of all of

11:08

these details and the

11:10

judge said you know there were other

11:12

ways that you could have done

11:15

this and you didn't your approach

11:17

was one that is not working here legally

11:19

for you to claim a mistrial at this

11:21

point talking about her to me Stormy by

11:23

the way is no shrinking violet as we've

11:25

seen at one point they have they'd asked

11:27

for the gag order not to apply to

11:29

people like her she has need protection was

11:31

part of their argument Michael Cohen as well

11:34

she's been tweeting tonight and she's been yeah

11:36

I know provoke yeah she gets off of

11:38

the stand six hours of testimony over two

11:40

days and tweets real men

11:42

respond to testimony by being sworn in

11:44

and taking the stand in

11:46

court obviously taking a shot at

11:49

Donald Trump who's she talking about you know

11:51

you proceed Lord that like that's why I

11:53

think this just all politically helps Trump this

11:56

stormy has nothing to do with the crime

11:59

you're right that Trump probably said go

12:01

after her, but in a weird way,

12:04

if he can make this about Stormy

12:06

and it's just a weird, yucky fling

12:08

that he had, politically, his

12:11

supporters think this doesn't matter. And

12:13

if she's out there tweeting- Is

12:15

this about what's happening in the courtroom or

12:17

is this about what's happening in the discussion

12:20

afterwards outside the courtroom? He wants to

12:22

be able to counter her message that's

12:24

being shared about the reporting on what's happening,

12:26

what she's saying in the courtroom publicly.

12:28

You're right. And the judge is

12:30

saying no. That's what she says

12:32

too. Do it in the courtroom, put the facts

12:35

there. If there needs to be

12:37

a counter to what she's saying, the place

12:39

to do that is not in the courtroom. He's not

12:41

going under oath though because he knows that's a whole

12:43

big problem for him. No lawyer

12:45

in my right is gonna let him understand. Am

12:47

I wrong? Well, there's

12:49

obviously been pretrial rulings that would affect

12:51

him dramatically in terms of

12:53

testifying. He could be cross and a

12:55

lot of things. Somehow, Eugene Carroll is relevant to

12:58

this case. There's all sorts

13:00

of stuff they'd cross-examine it all. But the reality, I think

13:02

it's just a more straight tactical decision. You

13:04

wanna make it all about Michael Cohen, period.

13:07

Anything else is a distraction. President Trump

13:09

being on the stand, telling his story,

13:11

it's a distraction. And the reason why

13:14

they appear inconsistent with these other witnesses

13:16

is they're getting friendly crosses. They're getting

13:18

concessions without raising their voice. That is

13:20

by far the best tactic here for

13:23

all of these witnesses that are controllers,

13:25

that are hope-hicks types. They're

13:27

upset, they're throwing stuff out that helps or hurts

13:30

both sides a little bit. But ultimately,

13:32

don't turn it into a battle where you look

13:34

like they're hurting you. And I think that this,

13:37

I think you go back to the gag

13:39

order for a second, the gag order has

13:41

become simply a measure of ego at this

13:43

point. The jury is sequestered. They're told, don't

13:45

hopefully, don't pay attention to any media. Well,

13:47

sequestered not in the literal sense. And they're

13:49

told not to be able to look at media, not

13:51

to do, they're not in a hotel by themselves. Right,

13:54

right, right. I mean, I always wonder when the judge

13:56

says, don't pay attention to the media on

13:59

the ride home. But look, the reality is,

14:01

you know, they're being told don't pay

14:03

attention to anything happening else about this

14:05

court courtroom. Just pay attention to

14:07

what happens in the courtroom. So Donald Trump

14:09

saying anything from A to Z that's not

14:11

criminal on its face is not affecting the

14:13

jury. They are trying to protect witnesses. That's

14:16

the other piece. Not just well, here's the thing. I mean,

14:18

it's hard to be sympathetic when Cohen

14:20

and Stormy now are taunting

14:22

from the freedom of their speech.

14:25

Well, someone said, though, remember, remember

14:27

Cohen has said, Cohen has said in

14:29

the book, in the past, that he's going to stop

14:32

now. The problem is for both Stormy

14:34

and Michael is that they have

14:36

said a lot for years and they are you

14:38

talked about rich targets in the sense of being

14:40

able to cross on them. Everyone stand by. We

14:43

have a lot more to talk about. Don't you worry,

14:45

especially that especially what was the indictment candle on bringing

14:47

that up and all the merchandise to I want to

14:49

bring in someone who's been in court all week. Asha

14:52

Bagshi, she's a Justice Department correspondent for USA Today

14:54

and also a lawyer. Aisha, thank you so much

14:56

for being here. I have a lot of questions.

14:59

And one of them, let me just get right to

15:01

the point. I want to know what was the jury's

15:04

body language and reaction to the discussion

15:07

and the cross-examination by necklace

15:09

against Stormy Daniels? How were

15:11

they responding? The

15:14

jurors were really attentive. They have been attentive

15:16

throughout this trial, but they have not been

15:18

showing their hand. It is not as if

15:20

they're really telling people in the audience what

15:22

they're thinking about what's happening. You can see

15:24

the kind of thing that lawyers often talk

15:27

about wanting to see in a jury. Where

15:29

people are turning their heads left and right.

15:31

They're following where people are testifying. If it's

15:34

the witness testifying, that's where their eyes are.

15:36

If it's a lawyer asking questions, their eyes turn

15:38

there. You can really see that they're

15:41

paying attention. They're taking lots of notes, but it

15:43

is not as if they're showing what

15:45

they're thinking. It was a really

15:47

tough cross-examination from Susan Necklace today,

15:50

but the jurors weren't really tipping their hats

15:52

about what they think. It's just really clear

15:54

that they're paying post-attention. Show

15:56

me there and describe the tone that Stormy

15:58

Daniels had in reaction. to the

16:01

relentless questions from Necklace, where she was trying

16:03

to suggest a lot about the work that

16:05

she had done, the number of sex partners

16:07

she'd had in her films. It

16:10

appeared from just reading the transcript that Daniels

16:12

would not be moved and was

16:15

unbothered, but at the same time, she was

16:17

defiant. What was that exchange like? Who had

16:19

the upper hand? Yes,

16:22

I mean, Stormy Daniels is clearly

16:25

no shrinking violet. If anything,

16:27

she kind of came more into her own when

16:30

she was under cross-examination. You could see

16:32

that she was ready to fight back.

16:34

That's actually a point that Susan Necklace

16:36

made today. She showed that when Stormy

16:38

Daniels has been harassed by people online

16:40

who might be Trump supporters, Stormy Daniels

16:42

has responded. So we saw that on

16:44

the witness stand too, when

16:47

Susan Necklace was going after her

16:49

challenging, sometimes really tiny details that

16:51

Necklace said were inconsistent between stories that

16:53

Daniels has told. Daniels was ready to

16:55

shoot back. What does it matter? Or

16:58

what really is the difference between these

17:00

two stories? If one time I said

17:02

that Trump's bodyguard came up to me

17:04

and said, Mr. Trump would like to

17:06

have dinner with you, and another time

17:08

I said, Trump did it, but the

17:10

bodyguard is sort of Trump's agent, is

17:12

that really a difference in the stories?

17:14

My story has not changed. There was

17:16

a time when Necklace really went after

17:19

the fact that Stormy Daniels is an

17:21

adult film star and basically said, you

17:23

make up things for money. And Daniels

17:25

responded, what's happening in my movies is

17:27

very real and so is what happens

17:29

between me and Mr. Trump. So

17:31

she had no problem handling a

17:33

tough cross-examination. I mean, also,

17:36

I still stick to my same thought about

17:38

that. The idea is if you wanna paint

17:40

her as somebody who is money hungry, shrewd,

17:42

and with no principles, that's who

17:44

you wanna pay off and if you wanna

17:46

have your story be quiet. The allegation alone,

17:48

that to me rings credible

17:51

that you would be motivated in that way, whether

17:53

you agree with whether our allegations sure or not.

17:55

But then there was this moment too where both

17:57

Trump and Daniels are making money.

18:00

merchandise and he's got a mugshot. I mean

18:02

look at the screen. We're showing the Trump

18:04

merchandise. You know he's got the Golden Seekers.

18:06

He's got Bibles. He's got she's selling a

18:08

candle. Comic books. T-shirts.

18:11

I wonder how that landed with the jurors

18:13

given this idea that it

18:16

was the pot and the kettle arguing

18:18

over who's black. Yes

18:21

I mean you definitely saw people to people

18:23

who are motivated by money. I mean Daniels

18:26

really did try to push back against some

18:28

of that storyline from Susan necklace. She really

18:30

said when it came to 2016 right before

18:32

the presidential election she wanted to tell her

18:34

story that was more important to her money.

18:36

And then even when she took the hush

18:38

money deal what she felt good about is

18:41

that it created a paper trail. It was

18:43

a it was a type of document documentation

18:45

that I had this story to tell. So

18:47

she felt like she had some protection and

18:49

she said she had security concerns.

18:51

But definitely there was a lot of

18:53

testimony and a lot of evidence that

18:56

showed that Stormy Daniels cares about making

18:58

money and has been successful. Today

19:00

we heard testimony about Daniels tweeting that

19:03

she made a million dollars. A lot

19:05

of it from her book which discussed

19:07

the Trump history from a

19:09

reality TV show. But

19:11

she doesn't shrink when when she's

19:14

cross-examined about those things. Today when

19:16

we saw the candle that's on

19:18

sale on the website touting Trump's

19:21

indictments. Susan necklace said

19:23

you get 40 dollars for each candle don't

19:25

you. And Stormy said actually about seven. So

19:28

she always had an answer and a comeback. You can

19:30

definitely see they're both they're

19:32

both people who think about businesses and

19:35

think about money. That's true. But I'm

19:37

not sure that that'll be the most

19:39

important thing in drilling down

19:41

on what jurisdiction get the story because

19:43

she owned it. We'll have to see. But

19:45

it may come down to the real details

19:47

in her story. And

19:50

whether she comes across this being can

19:52

be honest. Aisha Baxi

19:54

thank you so much. You know it really

19:56

does come down to testimony. If I remind

19:58

people this is a about documents, right?

20:01

It's not a trial within a trial as

20:04

to whether or not this sexual encounter happened.

20:06

It's whether there was the allegation

20:08

that was thought to be suppressed and

20:10

falsified business records as a result for the

20:13

purpose of trying to avoid having the

20:15

campaign impacted. They've got to bridge all those.

20:18

And next, today's other big testimony that got

20:20

to the heart of what I'm just talking

20:22

about, the business records. What a former Trump

20:24

aide said about a key meeting between Trump

20:27

and Michael Cohen, there's his name again at

20:29

the White House, plus a

20:31

reporter who spoke with Stormy Daniels

20:33

and saw her nondisclosure agreement before

20:35

her story went public. And

20:38

his name came up in court today. I'm gonna talk to

20:40

him about it. This

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information, visit jdpower.com/awards. I'm

21:46

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, CNN's chief medical

21:48

correspondent. This week on Chasing Life.

21:50

I'm a health reporter and have been for 15 years.

21:53

And even I feel overwhelmed by some of the things

21:55

I read about the stuff we're eating. My

21:58

colleague, Meg Terrell, wanted to take a deep breath. deep

22:00

dive into something you've probably heard a lot

22:02

about recently ultra process foods there

22:04

is a lot to learn there some

22:06

fascinating stuff and some of it is probably

22:08

going to change the way you shot.

22:11

Listen to chasing light wherever you get

22:13

your podcast. Now

22:19

what we've heard plenty of what was just

22:21

called tawdry testimony this weekend Donald Trump's hush

22:23

money case. This is really

22:25

a case about documents and of course about

22:28

money in order to secure

22:30

conviction prosecutors have to play a game

22:32

of connect the dots to establish Trump

22:34

orchestrated the plan to falsify business records

22:37

to cover up the payment from Michael

22:39

Cohen to my to help

22:41

his campaign that's a very important

22:43

part of prosecutors hope that today's

22:46

testimony from former Trump a Madeleine

22:48

Westerhouse help jurors piece that

22:50

puzzle together. He and cable

22:52

and Poland at the magic wall with the

22:54

key points from today and how prosecutors could

22:56

be setting the stage for Cohen to take

22:58

the stand Caitlin did some at a test

23:01

money move that need a little. Laura

23:03

if it didn't move the needle it at

23:06

least added a piece to the puzzle so

23:08

the main thing at the end of the

23:10

day that we thought after Stormy Daniels

23:12

finished her testimony is the testimony of

23:14

2 additional people who were

23:16

working for Donald Trump this is

23:19

these are all of the witnesses

23:21

that have been on the stand

23:23

over the past couple weeks that

23:25

are the chain of people who

23:27

all were able to see the

23:29

paper trail and they were able

23:31

to bring that into evidence they

23:33

were able to talk about things

23:35

like invoices and check the Donald

23:37

Trump was personally looking at signing

23:39

signing off on so that he

23:42

could pay Michael Cohen to reimburse

23:44

for this money but this

23:47

one of these people Madeleine Westerhouse she was

23:49

the person sitting outside of the West Wing

23:52

and she was able to testify

23:54

to who was in Trump's frequent

23:56

contact. First and foremost Michael

23:58

Cohen pretty important guy there. in

24:00

this trial. There are other people here,

24:03

but she's helping to establish the connection

24:05

directly between Donald Trump and Michael Cohen.

24:07

There's also, of course, TV

24:10

hosts on here, professional

24:12

athletes, some other

24:14

important people in the mix of

24:16

Donald Trump's worlds and family members.

24:18

But Michael Cohen is super important

24:20

having him on that list. And

24:23

then ultimately Madeleine Westerhout, she was

24:25

also able to testify, Laura, about

24:27

a meeting on February 5th, 2017.

24:29

She is the person

24:32

that sent the email to Michael Cohen

24:34

to get all of the important details

24:36

that he needed to provide to the

24:39

White House so he could get in

24:41

the building. Prosecutors are pointing to this

24:43

meeting because they want to allege this

24:45

is the meeting where the arrangements were

24:48

made for this hush money scheme for

24:50

Donald Trump to ultimately give Michael

24:52

Cohen his $130,000 plus much more to keep Stormy

24:58

Daniels quiet. Kaitlyn, thank you

25:00

so much. I think there are a lot of people

25:02

watching who are rewinding their show right now with a

25:04

panel, trying to see that list of people who are

25:06

on there, seeing Serena, they're seeing Tom Brady. I got

25:08

some questions about that. Jim, first of all, why do

25:11

you think they're bringing up all the contacts? What is

25:13

that going? I mean, obviously, the jury knows by now

25:15

they know Michael Cohen. They know they know David Pecker.

25:17

We know this, but the jury is going to be

25:19

aware of this. Why is that contact list important? It's

25:22

not. It's the bottom line. And look,

25:25

you know, I think that they've played

25:27

as hard as they can play with the

25:29

notion that people in a position to know

25:31

about bookkeeping don't have a whole lot to

25:34

say in this case. I mean, you know,

25:36

and we're not going to hear

25:38

from Alan Weiss. Is it Weisselberg? Weisselberg, yep. You

25:41

know, if Weisselberg is not a witness, which I assume

25:43

he's not because he was treated like a failed cooperator

25:45

by the government. He's in jail right now as well. Right.

25:47

I mean, still show up from jail. But, you know,

25:50

I think they've kind of it's almost a

25:53

principle of exhaustion. Let's have everybody that could

25:55

say something about how payments are done and

25:57

who has a voice in that process. But

26:00

at the end of the day, you're talking about an

26:02

entries that say for legal services,

26:05

and supposedly that's a felony, but

26:07

for legal services, NDA wouldn't be. That's

26:10

a crazy thin line for criminality, and

26:12

none of these people are really budging

26:14

that issue. So to me, it's going

26:16

to come down to how the judge

26:18

instructs on the motivation that's required for

26:20

fraud, and then even if it's a

26:22

mixed motivation where it only requires some

26:24

element to be the politics, which is

26:26

pretty easy to establish here. That'd be

26:28

substantial. Yeah, I mean, whatever that gray

26:30

area is of substantial, if

26:33

they can't connect Trump to the entries in

26:35

any plausible way, in which they really haven't

26:37

done so far, then it means it's Cohen,

26:40

and Cohen's the right battlefield. Does

26:42

it matter, do you think? I mean, for Trump,

26:44

he knows for what he's already laid the foundation

26:47

and planted the seed that this

26:49

jury is not going to be fair. He's been set

26:51

on the risk for that as well, in terms of

26:53

the gag order. If it comes down

26:55

to documents, there's normally a black and white, how

26:58

is the political spin going to address that? This

27:01

is what it comes down to, and that's

27:04

why I think the whole focus on Stormy

27:06

Daniels and the other stuff helps Trump. This

27:09

is a paper case, but

27:11

to your point, Jim, it

27:14

gets really down into the weeds, and

27:17

Laura, there's a tough ... Sure,

27:20

Trump did what he did to keep this

27:22

away from the campaign, but that has to

27:24

be a substantial motivation. That's

27:27

a tough bar to clear. Except,

27:29

I want to go to you, Karen, because first of

27:31

all, in your past life as well,

27:33

this is what we're talking about, the timing of this. This

27:36

is not like in a vacuum. You

27:39

had this alleged sexual encounter happen in

27:41

2006. The

27:43

payments, though, were made a few

27:45

days after, I believe, the Access

27:48

Hollywood tape came in, which was

27:50

a few days before the November

27:52

election actually happened. Take us

27:54

back to the idea of what was going

27:56

on about the fallout, because that's the key

27:58

for them to talk about that. substantial aspect,

28:00

that it wasn't to protect his family. It was

28:03

because he knew it impacted the campaign. So a

28:06

couple things. Access Hollywood tape comes

28:08

out October 8th. And

28:11

after a rough summer, that

28:13

was a huge deal, right? Because

28:16

as we now know, right, at the

28:19

RNC, they were trying to decide, can

28:21

we replace him on the ticket? He

28:23

was already having trouble with white suburban

28:26

women, which, as we've noted, continues to

28:28

be an issue for him in success

28:30

campaigns. That's why he hires

28:32

Kellyanne Conway. They

28:34

know that this is the kind of story

28:37

that could do real damage. Then

28:40

you have, so they're trying to hold it back.

28:42

October 28th, don't forget, Jim Comey

28:45

comes out. Now what saved Donald

28:47

Trump when the Access Hollywood tape

28:50

came out, it was Melania. A

28:53

lot of folks don't remember, it was

28:55

her coming out affirming that, yeah, it's

28:57

just how boys talk, locker talk.

29:00

That created a permission structure for

29:02

women to say, OK, we

29:05

can excuse that. If she says

29:07

it's OK, then it's OK. So

29:10

then as I say, cut to October

29:12

28th, we have Jim Comey come back

29:14

out. And ironically, one of the arguments

29:16

that Donald Trump was making at the

29:18

time was that if Hillary Clinton was

29:21

elected, there would be lawsuits, we'd be

29:23

dragging through the mud

29:25

because of all of her baggage. Cut

29:28

to here we are tonight having this conversation.

29:31

I want to say that this is kind of deja

29:34

vu, and Karen, you'll remember this, with the Clinton impeachment

29:37

matter and everything that happened. The

29:40

public never got their arms around the

29:42

fact that it was not about the

29:44

sexual encounter with Monica Lindsay. It was

29:46

about perjury, which is why they were

29:48

impeaching him and everything happened. And I

29:50

think that's the same issue you're raising

29:52

here, which is that this is a

29:55

very sophisticated down in the weeds nuance

29:57

thing you have to really understand to get to the.

30:00

criminality and I don't think

30:02

the public just thinks that deep. I think they

30:04

see the porn star, they see the salaciousness and

30:06

they go, oh, this is a guy cheating in

30:08

his marriage. Doing Trump's been a playboy. I mean,

30:10

I'm old enough to remember seeing the Inquirer magazines

30:12

on the stand as a kid. Trump has been

30:14

in our life for a really long time doing

30:17

this kind of stuff. And I think that that's

30:19

where there's a disconnect. Laura, I don't think the

30:21

public, they think it's about sex with the porn

30:23

star versus what it's really about. Yeah.

30:25

And you know anything about that too, it, since

30:27

there's no cameras in the courtroom and there's no audio,

30:30

you don't know if you're not watching

30:32

all day long in the coverage, you

30:34

have no idea who is eliciting that

30:36

testimony. When you hear that there are

30:39

conversations about tweets and about missionary positions

30:41

and who's wearing a condom and who's

30:43

not, you think that that's

30:45

the prosecution who is getting that testimony to come

30:47

out of Stormy Daniels and it doesn't, and you

30:49

think, okay, well this, they're trying to do this

30:51

as opposed to how it's really coming in and

30:53

just fuels that same narrative. That's part of, I

30:56

think it was nearing the benefit of not having

30:58

those cameras in the courtroom. Thank you everyone so

31:00

much. Next we have one of the first

31:03

journalists to speak with Stormy Daniels about her

31:05

story and he was brought up in court

31:07

today. So the question

31:09

that the prosecution and the defense

31:11

want answered in the juror's mind

31:13

is does her testimony line up

31:15

with what she told him back

31:17

in 2016? Jacob Weisberg is my

31:19

guest when we come back. The

31:26

Assignment with me, Adi Kornish. Celebrities

31:29

of all kinds are speaking publicly

31:31

about their therapeutic trips, so to

31:33

speak. It turns out there is

31:36

a burgeoning industry ready to serve

31:38

the new influx of people who

31:40

find themselves turning away from traditional

31:42

mental health therapy. The gap

31:45

between what we know and what we

31:47

don't about psychedelic therapy. Listen

31:49

to The Assignment with me, Adi Kornish,

31:51

on your favorite podcast app. The

32:00

saga of John McDaniel did not start

32:02

last year when the Manhattan DA decided

32:04

to charge Donald Trump. Nor did it

32:06

begin in 2016 when the

32:08

alleged hush money deal was even created. It

32:11

started in 2006 when

32:13

she alleges she had an affair with

32:15

Trump at a golf tournament in Lake Tahoe.

32:17

Now, she says that she first did an

32:20

interview about the encounter in 2011, but it

32:22

was never published.

32:24

Then, in October of

32:26

2016, Michael Cohen struck a

32:28

deal to buy her story in exchange for

32:30

her silence. The price tag we all know

32:32

quite well by now, 130,000 bucks. Now,

32:36

that deal didn't come to light until

32:38

2018, you know, when the Wall Street

32:41

Journal revealed it. A few

32:43

weeks later, then-Trump attorney Rudy

32:45

Giuliani confirmed it existed. But

32:48

another reporter almost broke this story first.

32:50

Joining me now is Jacob Weisberg, former

32:52

reporter with Slate Magazine, who spoke to

32:55

Daniels about the alleged encounter and saw

32:57

the nondisclosure agreement. Jacob, thank you so

32:59

much for joining me. I'm really eager

33:01

to hear your impression of all this,

33:04

especially because your name was

33:06

brought up in court today by the defense

33:08

attorneys, who the neck was. And here is

33:10

the quote, do you

33:12

recall that in 2016 that at

33:14

the same time that your lawyer

33:16

was negotiating with Michael Cohen over

33:18

a nondisclosure agreement, you were also

33:20

speaking with a reporter from Slate

33:22

named Jacob Weisberg. Do you recall

33:24

that? Daniel responds, quote, I

33:26

recall talking to someone from Slate. I'm

33:28

not sure the name. Now, Stormy actually

33:31

called you her backup in court. Tell

33:34

me about the conversation that took place. Yes. Well,

33:38

I actually found my way to her rather than

33:40

the other way around. And it was earlier than

33:42

October. It was soon after the Republican convention in

33:44

2016. And

33:47

I was trying to convince her to go public with

33:49

the story, to give it to me in a form

33:51

I could use it. And

33:53

she wanted money for the story. And I explained

33:55

to her that Slate and other

33:58

credible news organizations like CNN, like

34:00

ABC don't pay for stories. She

34:03

had more experience in kind of a tabloid

34:05

world in which they do. And

34:07

she thought the story had value and she wanted

34:10

to be paid for it. I think she was

34:12

kind of indifferent, whether she got paid for

34:15

selling the story or for making

34:17

the story go away as she did. That's

34:19

interesting because her motivation has been questioned a

34:21

great deal as to whether she was into

34:23

fear for her life, wanted the NDA to,

34:25

I think the phrase she used was just

34:27

a hide in plain sight that it would

34:29

give her some protection or that look at

34:32

the end of the day, she wanted the

34:34

money, but you, your reaction

34:36

with interaction with her, she just wanted the

34:38

money or the story to get out? Oh,

34:43

I think she was much more interested in the

34:45

money. If she'd wanted the story to get out, she

34:47

would have let me use that and it would have

34:49

come out or she would have given it to another

34:51

news organization. But I would say that hearing her testimony

34:54

on Tuesday and again today, the

34:56

facts have been entirely consistent. The

34:59

story she told me eight years

35:01

ago, it wouldn't let me use, was

35:03

the same story, same details. She

35:05

spanked him with a rolled up copy

35:08

of Forbes magazine. And I remember all

35:10

the little bits. What has changed, I

35:12

think, is her feelings about that encounter

35:15

and how she, the kind of emotional

35:17

content of the experience. When she told

35:19

me about it back then, she

35:22

was very dismissive of it. It was no big

35:24

deal. Trump was ridiculous. She didn't believe anything he

35:26

said. He said he was going to buy her

35:28

a condo in Florida, put her on the apprentice.

35:30

She wasn't buying any of it. She kind of

35:32

hoped it might happen, but she didn't believe it.

35:35

Now, the way she describes that is

35:38

something almost closer to date rape. She

35:40

doesn't use those terms. She doesn't say it

35:42

was coercive, but she said on the stand

35:44

that she kind of blacked out while

35:47

they were having sex. And she felt bullied,

35:50

that there was a kind of power

35:52

imbalance. Again, same facts, different feelings. And

35:55

she does talk about, she was challenged on that

35:57

very point because she says in interviews...

36:00

in the past, she's not a victim,

36:02

she reiterated on the stand that it

36:04

was not, she was not physically or

36:06

threatened or harmed in any way and

36:08

describes that it's consensual at

36:10

the same time as you've mentioned, it

36:12

got the defense counsel on their feet

36:14

that that was insinuation that it was

36:17

something different than that. Did that shift

36:19

for the emotional feelings surrounding the event,

36:22

did that strike you as odd or make

36:24

her less credible to you? Not

36:28

at all, I mean, she used exactly the same language

36:30

with me that she wasn't a victim.

36:33

And if you want a point

36:35

of comparison, think about Monica Lewinsky,

36:37

who came to feel very differently

36:39

about her cultural encounter

36:41

with Bill Clinton based on what

36:44

she came to understand about the

36:46

power imbalance. And

36:48

so you can have the same story, but

36:50

a different relationship to that story, different feelings

36:53

about the story. You

36:55

actually saw the NDA with Cohen and

36:57

asked, she asked you what she should

37:00

do about it. Do you remember that moment? Well,

37:04

she didn't exactly ask me what to

37:06

do about it. I mean, she was

37:08

trying to figure out what to do

37:10

about it. It wasn't signed. She explained

37:12

to me about these pseudonyms, the David

37:14

Dennison, there was another document which she

37:16

hadn't seen, which I didn't see, which

37:18

explained the key that this was her

37:20

and Donald Trump. And she had this

37:22

letter, Keith Davidson, who was negotiating this.

37:25

And the reason she started talking to

37:27

me again after a gap in

37:29

October was she thought Trump,

37:32

having made this agreement for Michael Cohen,

37:35

wasn't going to pay up. And she

37:37

understood enough about him to know that

37:39

he often makes deals and then reneges

37:41

on them. And she thought after

37:43

the election, he wouldn't have the interest in paying the

37:45

money and she wouldn't get the money. So

37:48

she was, and then when

37:50

Cohen did pay, did sign the agreement and

37:53

did pay, then she went silent again with

37:55

me. So she

37:57

mentioned the idea of the election. a

38:00

pivotal point, at least when she thought she

38:02

would get made whole in her

38:04

request. Her

38:07

entire concern was that after the election,

38:09

Trump would renege on the agreement and

38:11

wouldn't pay her. An

38:13

important detail. Jacob, Wiesberg, thank you so

38:15

much for joining. There's

38:21

a story that I want to tell you more

38:23

about, and it has nothing to do with the

38:25

trial today or any of the news that

38:27

we've been covering throughout the course of this show.

38:29

But it is extraordinarily significant and

38:32

has to do with this young man. He's

38:34

a Florida airman, and he was

38:37

shot and killed in his own home, the

38:39

apartment by police. His

38:41

family says that he was playing video

38:44

games and on FaceTime and that the

38:46

deputy went to the wrong

38:48

apartment. And the sheriff's office says,

38:50

no, it was the correct unit. We'll

38:52

unpack what happened in

38:54

just a moment. 23

39:00

year old active duty airman Roger Forston was

39:02

inside of his apartment. His family says he

39:04

was playing video games when he heard a

39:06

knock at his door. Seconds

39:09

later, he was shot at

39:11

least five times in his own home

39:13

by police. And tonight, after

39:16

pleas from the family, police are

39:18

releasing the body camera footage. It's

39:21

important for you all to see, but

39:23

I have to warn you. This

39:25

is extremely graphic. Three

39:57

12 shots fired suspect. At

40:02

the time of the shooting, Fortson was on

40:04

a FaceTime call with his girlfriend, the

40:07

family releasing a portion of that

40:09

video tonight. And

40:12

I warn you again, it's incredibly disturbing.

40:16

Let's move, please. Jason,

40:18

stop moving. Stop

40:21

moving. I'm

40:23

going to leave you.

40:25

I'm not going to be able to do this. I'm

40:27

going to pull the mic off. I'm going to get

40:29

a little... Hang

40:32

on. I got to get my phone for you. Don't move. The

40:36

police are saying, quote, our deputy responded

40:39

to a call of a disturbance in

40:41

progress when he encountered an armed man.

40:44

Tonight, that officer is currently on

40:46

administrative leave. The sheriff's

40:48

department requesting an investigation. Still, the

40:51

family is demanding more information, insisting

40:53

the officer went to the wrong

40:55

apartment. The sheriff's department, well,

40:57

they refute that. Here's

41:00

Airman Fortson's mother and her message

41:02

to the sheriff's department about her

41:05

now-deceased son. To

41:09

the sheriff's department that took my

41:11

guilt, I need you guys to

41:13

tell the truth about my son.

41:16

I need you to get his reputation right.

41:20

I want to bring in Ben Crump,

41:22

who's representing the Fortson family. Ben, to

41:25

hear that mother describe her son as

41:27

a gift just breaks one's

41:29

heart into a million pieces. How

41:31

is that family doing tonight? Law

41:35

coach, they are devastated beyond

41:37

this belief. He

41:40

was the brightest hope for

41:42

his family. In fact, he

41:44

took care of his mother,

41:46

as well as his 16-year-old

41:48

little brother, André, and his

41:51

10-year-old angel, Harmony. And he

41:54

talked about... He was living

41:56

his dream as a United States Air

41:59

Force member. to give

42:01

his family a better chance for their

42:03

American dream. So they are devastated, Laura.

42:06

This is a nightmare for any family, an

42:08

absolute nightmare to think about, just watching that

42:11

unfold the way it did, the amount

42:13

of time between the door opening and

42:15

the shot fired. Tell me about the

42:17

FaceTime video that you released tonight. What

42:20

is it that you're alleging happened? Well,

42:23

his girlfriend was on FaceTime

42:25

video with him for

42:28

a substantial amount of time. And

42:30

it is troubling. They talk about

42:32

a disturbance, however, he was in

42:34

his apartment alone on FaceTime

42:36

with his girlfriend, with his dog. And

42:39

there was no disturbance. You look

42:41

at his history. He is an

42:43

American patriot. This is a good

42:45

kid, no criminal history

42:48

whatsoever. He respects authority. He

42:50

was a registered licensed gun

42:53

owner. His girlfriend

42:55

talked about the hermit knocking the door. He asked

42:57

who it was. He and

42:59

his girlfriend didn't hear anybody identify

43:01

themselves. She said, but then he

43:03

opened the door in less than

43:06

a split second, Laura. I mean,

43:08

he's trying to comply. He says,

43:10

step back. Roger steps back. I

43:13

mean, you see this kid complying. The

43:15

officer never said, drop your weapon. And

43:17

after he shot him and was on

43:20

the ground, and Roger was even complying

43:22

then as he spiked for his life,

43:24

he said, drop the weapon. And Roger

43:26

said, I did. And then you

43:28

hear on the FaceTime video where he said,

43:31

I can't breathe. I can't breathe. And the

43:33

officer is scared of talking about, don't move.

43:35

Don't move. I mean, it's like, why

43:37

didn't you try to lifesave and

43:39

maneuver? I mean, it's so troubling,

43:41

Laura, on so many albums. I

43:44

mean, this is not, sadly,

43:46

the first time we've even heard about someone

43:48

being shot in their home by

43:50

police officers. And you represented many

43:52

families. We have all been watching

43:55

what has been happening. And these

43:57

are not analogous scenarios. But when

43:59

it comes to thinking, we're say a bottom John or

44:02

a brown a Taylor. I could

44:04

go on with the direct at a

44:06

Tiana Jefferson just to name a few

44:08

people who were all gifts to their

44:10

families. There is an

44:12

investigation that is now pending. We

44:15

have sometimes see what happens in investigations.

44:18

What do you expect to happen how are

44:20

they approaching the investigation

44:22

is in a way that you feel

44:25

confident. Well,

44:27

the family as his mother said

44:30

do not try to

44:32

justify this unjustified killing. Now

44:35

that video Laura at the beginning somebody

44:37

from the leasing office. They said what

44:39

apartment is it. She said I'm not

44:41

sure. They asked her again.

44:43

She said I'm not sure but then

44:45

she says 1401 apartment

44:49

and we believe they

44:51

were wrong. They were simply at

44:53

the wrong apartment. There is

44:56

nothing the jazz that Roger

44:58

or son was in a

45:00

domestic dispute with anybody and

45:03

now this innocent print this

45:05

U.S. Airman this gift to

45:08

his family is dated. This

45:11

is an active duty person as well as

45:13

secretary of defense Lloyd Austin

45:15

saying to a spokesperson tonight that

45:17

he is quote closely watching the

45:19

reports of Airman forts and fatal

45:21

shooting and and I do

45:23

wonder what we might see from the military's

45:25

response of what has happened to

45:28

one of their only 23 year-old

45:30

active duty Airman described by

45:33

his mother as a

45:35

beloved gift. Ben Crump thank you so much.

45:38

Thank you Laura God bless you. Thank

45:41

you to you as well and I want to thank

45:43

you all for watching. Our

45:45

coverage continues. Quality

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46:22

I'm Dr. Sanjay Gupta, host of

46:24

the Chasing Life podcast. In

46:26

honor of our 10th season, we want

46:28

to hear from you. Leave us a message

46:30

at 470-396-0832 and tell us how you chase life. It

46:36

could be used on an upcoming episode.