0:00

Hi , this is Ken Williams .

0:02

And I'm Alicia Coakley . Every member of

0:04

the church has a story to share , one that

0:06

can instill faith , invite growth and

0:08

inspire others .

0:10

On today's episode we're going to hear how

0:12

one man discovered that joy can be found even

0:14

before overcoming the pattern of pornography

0:17

. Welcome to Latter-day Lights Music

0:20

.

0:28

All right , welcome , welcome everybody . As you

0:30

can see , my co-host has

0:32

a lot more hair than usual today .

0:33

I'm sure .

0:37

Scott , we are going to excuse him . He

0:39

has some things going on with his family this day

0:42

, and so

0:44

we are so happy to

0:46

be able to invite a co-host , ken

0:48

Williams . Ken has his own podcast

0:51

as well . You have a couple right .

0:52

I have a couple , actually three

0:54

, if you want to be Three .

0:56

What are your three Ken ?

0:58

So I have a Latter-day Saint themed podcast Actually

1:01

, I'm kind of shifting into more of a general

1:03

Christian , just anybody with faith

1:05

. It's called Chocolate Cake Bites and B-Y-T-E-S

1:08

, and this is where either

1:10

I myself will just have some thoughts or

1:12

I'll have conversations I did with

1:14

Alicia a few weeks ago where we'll just talk

1:16

about something that we learned

1:20

or heard or are thinking about that's

1:22

related to the gospel , and so that's

1:24

one . I'm a live coach , and

1:26

so my other , my coaching podcast , is

1:28

the Bad Boss podcast . I help people who deal , who

1:31

have bad bosses , deal with that , and

1:34

then also just as kind of a side project

1:36

since why not I've

1:39

started a ward podcast for

1:41

members of my ward , so I just sit down

1:43

with people in my ward , get to know them a little bit , and

1:46

that's been an absolute blast .

1:47

Yeah , yeah , awesome . And you were our guest

1:50

of ours recently as well , so

1:52

that's that's how Ken came

1:55

into the whole mix here . And then we

1:57

have Kyson Kyson kid

1:59

. Thank you so much , kyson . You are our guest

2:01

guest tonight , so

2:04

we are really excited to have you . I

2:07

know you do coaching as well

2:09

, but why don't you go ahead and

2:11

tell the audience a little bit about yourself ?

2:15

Yeah , I'm so glad to be here . I honestly

2:17

have a hard time introducing

2:19

myself sometimes . It's like you know

2:21

I do . I

2:23

do a lot of things , but I guess the things

2:25

that I'm currently passionate about

2:28

I love to coach . The

2:30

thing I love about that is deep conversations

2:32

, people that know me in

2:35

real life , like my friends . That's

2:37

one of the things that my favorite friends

2:39

do is we sit and we have real conversations

2:42

about life or whatever's going on

2:44

. So I love I love that

2:46

. I love connecting with people . I love to

2:48

create music . So I

2:50

do a few different types

2:52

of music , but I love creating music that

2:54

helps people just feel and relax

2:57

but still is cool . You know a

2:59

lot of them , a lot of that music out there can just like bore

3:01

you to death or at least to tears , and

3:04

so I try to make that a fun

3:06

, an enjoyable experience

3:08

as I create music .

3:10

So are there specific instruments that you that

3:13

you play , or is it ?

3:15

Yeah , I play a lot of piano and guitar

3:17

. And then have you ever seen the steel drums that

3:19

are shaped like a UFO ? Oh yeah , so

3:22

I've got a couple of those that I play .

3:25

Yeah , they're pretty fun .

3:28

And then I guess I forgot to introduce the fact that I

3:30

married and have two awesome kids and an awesome wife . So

3:33

yeah , that's .

3:34

We might hear your little one in the background , but that's totally

3:36

okay . We're pro kids here . Thank

3:39

you , Very cool . And

3:44

then so where ? Where are you located

3:46

, Kyson ?

3:47

Yeah , I'm in Kansas . We moved here

3:49

two years ago Just kind

3:51

of felt right , so we're here .

3:54

All right , there you go have you met .

3:56

Dorothy , yet no

3:58

, we have . We've

4:01

seen a few like touristy things

4:03

that say , like you know no place

4:05

like home and yellow brick road stuff , but right . Not

4:08

as much as you'd think . Oh , okay , well

4:10

, that's kind of sad yeah

4:13

they got to work on that .

4:14

They got to really work on it . So

4:18

so you reached out because you've

4:20

got a story and so we'd love to

4:22

hear a story .

4:24

Yeah , absolutely . I'm

4:26

going to kind of just start at the start

4:28

and I'll let you guys guide me

4:30

. You know , if you have questions , feel free to

4:32

like interject and we

4:35

can flesh out any parts you want to hear , as

4:39

was stated in the in the intro

4:41

. So I , I , I love

4:43

talking about this subject , which some people

4:45

think sounds weird . I love talking about my

4:47

experience with pornography because I think

4:50

it's one of the biggest struggles

4:52

in our world that

4:55

no one's allowed to talk talk about , especially

4:57

in the Christian world . There's a lot of fear about

4:59

talking about it . So

5:02

, yeah , I guess let's , let's start at the beginning . I

5:05

I ended up getting into pornography

5:07

on accident as a little kid , which is

5:09

like a lot of people have that experience

5:12

. I think I was seven

5:14

or eight and just

5:16

kind of stumbled on things and

5:19

that turned into basically just years

5:22

of you know , turn in curiosity

5:25

and almost , almost

5:27

even feeling like an addictive

5:29

habit , with overcoming

5:31

the internet blocks , you know , and just like

5:33

getting in this split , in this place

5:35

of like how can I get past that ? And like obsessing

5:38

over it . And it was really hard because along

5:41

that whole journey I never like gave

5:43

in and was like I'm just going to like go for it

5:45

. I was always also

5:48

trying to like step back and say , like what is wrong

5:50

? Why do I keep doing this ? I don't know how to stop . You

5:54

know , as a as a young kid , I

5:56

didn't . I chose not to

5:58

confide in anybody about it

6:00

. So you know

6:02

I wasn't like I wasn't very supported

6:04

. You know I had great leaders

6:06

and great parents , but I

6:09

didn't take advantage of the support system . I

6:11

don't know . I'm

6:14

not trying to say that other people didn't do a

6:16

good enough job there , but that is just kind

6:18

of the way things unfolded is . I dealt

6:20

with it alone for most of my life , and

6:23

was it ?

6:24

was it like a shame thing

6:26

, or did you just feel like they were going to look at you

6:28

differently , or you didn't you think

6:30

that you needed them , kind of what was

6:32

that thinking ?

6:34

Totally At the time . I feel

6:36

like I'll say a little more on this later

6:38

but I like didn't understand shame

6:41

, I think , because I was so

6:43

engulfed in shame that

6:45

I didn't know there was like not

6:48

shame . You know , I didn't know there was another option

6:50

. I just felt like this is the way life is

6:52

. I remember the first time , you

6:55

know , because the bishop was I was going to have a bishops interview

6:58

, I think , about priesthood , something

7:00

like that , and the first time I

7:02

told the bishop , I remember being just

7:04

sick for like a week before the interview

7:06

, just like sick to my stomach and

7:09

all kinds of fearful

7:11

thoughts about like what's , what's even going to happen

7:13

, and he's going to make me tell my parents , and

7:15

just a lot , a

7:17

lot of huge fears . So

7:20

, yeah , I'd say just massive shame . So

7:22

much that I interestingly

7:25

, it's like it's weird to talk about this

7:27

I guess I haven't shared this exact piece very often , but I ended

7:30

up getting caught by my dad , which

7:32

I remember . One of the very first things

7:34

I thought this is around 16, 17

7:37

very first things I thought was I'm really

7:39

grateful I don't have to hide this

7:41

anymore , like within 30 seconds of it , wow

7:43

. So it definitely

7:45

thrives in a shameful environment . And

7:50

I guess what's interesting

7:53

, the way this first

7:55

part of my journey feels to me is

7:57

like , over and over I

7:59

would start to count the days and say , ok , let's

8:01

see if I can go a week in a month and two

8:04

months and whatever . And then I would mess

8:06

up and be back to square one . It's like

8:08

, oh well , nothing's changed again , and I

8:10

just did that for years . I

8:13

remember like basically

8:15

the feeling was like I'd get to

8:17

two years and I'd be like , oh , I haven't even changed

8:20

. You know , I'm just doing the same thing . I get to three years and I

8:22

tell myself the same thing . In five years of

8:24

struggling with it , I finally

8:27

was able to kind

8:29

of like get things under control

8:31

enough to get ready for a mission

8:33

, which I'm super grateful for . I

8:35

didn't change , I

8:38

didn't change my heart at all . I'll say that

8:40

I definitely just decided OK , I'm going to

8:42

stop because I've got to go on a mission . And

8:45

you know , on my mission I did really well

8:47

. That's the thing that's maybe

8:49

hard to understand

8:52

, especially with how little we talk about

8:54

pornography and how many people

8:56

struggle with it . This

8:58

whole time I was like a super faithful

9:00

. I mean , I was like kind of rebellious

9:03

and seminary and stuff . But like I was reading my scriptures

9:05

, I believed in God . Yeah

9:08

, seminary is a it's

9:10

a good time to bring for that stuff to come forward

9:12

, yeah . But

9:15

yeah , I was totally active . I read my scriptures

9:17

. I was , you know , trying to like

9:20

memorize scriptures and have

9:24

meaningful prayers and all those things and and on

9:27

my mission I felt like I was a great missionary . I

9:29

really focused on obedience and

9:32

like trying to help people come to Jesus and

9:34

I believed all that stuff that

9:36

whole time . You

9:39

know , I didn't really struggle on my mission with pornography

9:41

but as soon as I got home , maybe

9:44

like I don't know how long it would be , I

9:47

don't remember the exact amount , but within months

9:49

it was just back

9:51

in like nothing had changed and

9:54

I remember . You know , there's that despair of

9:56

like OK , and

9:58

more shame too . Like OK , I just went on a mission . I'm

10:00

supposed to there's that phrasing I'm supposed

10:02

to have this figured out and supposed to be

10:04

better than this by now . I'm

10:08

supposed to . You know all the different supposed to's

10:10

and I'm

10:13

trying to think what even happened next . It

10:15

just honestly , it just feels like all

10:17

of stage one is this pattern of I

10:19

didn't change anything . Sometimes I could go

10:21

a month or three months or a week , and

10:24

two years or

10:26

two years for a mission . I remember

10:28

getting

10:30

to a year one time and I was

10:33

dating a girl . Things were going

10:35

good . We broke up and then I

10:37

was like back in . You know I'm so

10:40

, so , depressed , so lonely

10:42

, so you know , confused about whatever

10:44

life , college

10:46

, and I dove back in .

10:50

And so that I have . Maybe you'll get to this later

10:52

. But number one after

10:54

your dad caught you , did

10:58

you feel like you had to continue to

11:00

hide , or was that kind of opening

11:05

that topic

11:08

at least with him , that you didn't

11:11

have to hide from him ? And then the

11:13

second question that I don't know if

11:15

I'll remember it , but looking

11:18

back , is there anything that

11:20

you wish your parents or leaders or

11:22

bishop or anybody else had done

11:25

or not done that might have changed your

11:27

experience ?

11:28

Oh yeah , that's a huge question . My

11:32

dad , like having

11:34

it out in the open . I

11:38

think I still was pretty shame-based

11:41

and I don't know that he was

11:43

shameful , but at least you know

11:45

, with my filter of how stuff came in , like

11:47

I was , basically I just shamed

11:49

myself into stopping . It's

11:52

like well , now he knows and he's going to ask

11:54

me about it pretty often , so I don't want to deal

11:56

with that embarrassment so

11:58

like we got to just stop so I can get ready for a

12:00

mission . So

12:04

I didn't get to a place where I could just openly

12:07

like , hey , let's really talk about what's going

12:09

on . I think my dad would have been

12:11

willing , but I was still

12:13

kind of in . I was in like a cloudy

12:15

mind of a teenager who had been

12:18

looking at porn for , you know , 10 years or whatever

12:20

, eight years , and so for

12:22

me it just felt like it

12:24

felt really hard to get into an open space

12:27

there . So I think that

12:29

ties into what I would have

12:31

loved from leaders and parents and

12:34

I don't expect them I'll say that again

12:36

, I'm not expecting them to like you

12:38

didn't do good enough . I take full

12:41

accountability for my experience and

12:44

I think we're getting more equipped as time

12:46

goes on as parents , right , that's

12:48

we're learning about how intense pornography

12:51

really is . I think it would

12:53

have been so powerful to have someone

12:55

who

12:57

could just be so like weirdly

13:00

enough . I want to say vulnerable , not necessarily

13:03

about pornography , but like someone

13:05

willing to say like

13:07

it's okay to struggle , it's okay to have fears

13:09

, it's okay to to feel lust

13:12

and not know how to stop . You

13:14

know , it's okay to be anxious

13:16

and to be worried about stuff and it's okay

13:18

to make mistakes . Like really just to clear

13:21

the air there so

13:24

that I could start to ask some deeper

13:26

questions . Okay .

13:28

Right Almost like you needed . You

13:30

needed an adult to show you that there wasn't shame

13:32

in it . Right Like

13:34

that , that it was human , almost

13:37

right Like this is something that we go

13:39

through , you know .

13:41

Yeah , and I think it's . It's weird

13:44

how it's kind of I think it can be rare for

13:46

people to . I

13:49

think I guess I'll say this it's really common to

13:51

for people to be in kind of a shaming mindset

13:54

where , like we need , you know , if you're not doing

13:56

the right thing , then we need to sort of punish

13:58

you or subtly ostracize

14:00

you . Yeah , so

14:03

you know I'm . It sounds a

14:05

little intense

14:07

to say this , but I'm trying to think like I don't know how

14:09

many . I'm

14:11

like really questioning can I say this phrasing

14:14

how many adults did

14:16

I know growing up that felt truly safe

14:18

and not in a place

14:20

of shame ? I'm not sure because

14:23

of how thick my filter of shame was . So

14:26

to me it felt like shame is the way that this

14:28

world operates , like , especially church

14:30

culture . Shame is like the thing

14:32

that keeps us going .

14:34

Right , and it's not the gospel that's shaming us , it's

14:36

Satan , like it's totally him

14:38

getting in our head and , being that ventriloquist

14:41

, you know that that shaming

14:43

and telling us this is bad

14:46

, you're horrible , no one's going to understand . You

14:48

know like you shouldn't be doing this . You might as well just give up . You

14:51

know like it really , like it really really is

14:53

him , and I I've always said

14:55

that . I've told my kids that Satan

14:57

thrives in secrecy . So

14:59

like the more you keep secret , the more you

15:01

keep to yourself . like he is just building

15:04

muscle , he's building his arsenal

15:06

, like that is such a powerful breeding

15:08

ground for him and

15:10

he , he uses that secrecy and

15:13

that shame , those two things , to continue

15:15

getting us to sin Right , like

15:17

it's like that terrible

15:20

s cycle . Yeah , as

15:22

to the third power thing . So yeah

15:24

, wow .

15:25

Well so .

15:26

So take us to where , where

15:28

you're at now , so you're home from your mission

15:30

. You had this breakup , you . You got back

15:33

into it again when

15:35

did we go ?

15:36

And yeah , so let's get to

15:38

the cool part , right , the part where things start to shift

15:40

. Cause it for real . It felt like basically

15:43

like 17 to 18 years of just like

15:45

, oh dang , this is not working

15:47

, nothing like nothing's working . And

15:51

one of the first moments of

15:53

clarity or like shifting that

15:55

happened , I ended up

15:57

getting , like , starting to

16:00

get more familiar with like Eastern

16:02

medicine approach . They

16:05

have a unique approach to like the physical

16:07

body , and then also like the emotional and spiritual

16:09

. And there's this question

16:12

, depending on who you like , learn through right . I , just

16:14

as I read and learn things , I

16:16

found this question , or this concept of like

16:18

what's down in the roots , what's

16:20

beneath this thing , and

16:23

that's one of the things that Eastern medicine does is treats

16:25

everything as a symptom . So , instead of like

16:27

, oh , my stomach hurts , I need to take a pill

16:29

to fix the pain , we go . Well , why

16:31

is your stomach hurting ? What's the nutrients

16:34

that's missing ? What's the you know

16:36

? What's the emotional stress factor ? Are

16:38

you going to tell your bishop that you're struggling with porn in

16:40

a week ? Is that why you have a stomachache ? That

16:42

kind of thing ? Right , we figure out what's down

16:45

in the roots or what's beneath this . Another

16:48

way I like to phrase that question was like what's

16:50

really going on , what's

16:53

the real thing ? And so , as

16:55

I learned that I don't remember

16:58

the exact you know moment , but there's this

17:00

pattern that started

17:02

to emerge over several weeks

17:04

and months where I started asking

17:06

that question about everything , like I gave

17:08

myself permission to . Instead

17:10

of shaming and punishing myself into being

17:12

how I'm supposed to be , I

17:15

started to give myself space to

17:17

just ask questions . So

17:19

, interestingly , I didn't actually

17:22

start . I didn't start by tackling my

17:24

pornography struggle . I started

17:26

with , like I'm feeling super anxious

17:28

when I'm in social groups

17:30

. What if , instead

17:32

of just telling myself , hey , you shouldn't be anxious

17:35

, that's dumb or that means you're not confident , instead

17:38

I started to ask well , what's really going on ? Like

17:40

what , what's in the roots beneath it , right Like

17:43

it's ? It's this really cool way of almost trusting yourself

17:47

, trusting that your experience is okay and

17:50

trusting that God can work with you , and

17:52

so I

17:55

started to practice that question , basically .

17:58

So I'm curious what ? What was

18:00

it ? You said you started studying some of this Eastern

18:02

medicine

18:04

. What brought

18:07

that on ? How did you get acquainted with

18:09

that , or how did you decide

18:11

to approach that Cause it sounds like it made a significant

18:13

difference for you .

18:15

Yeah , it's so fun to look back at some

18:17

of these events cause it feels like God was just

18:19

like guiding me , so so clearly

18:22

. So

18:24

I was in Idaho going to school . I

18:26

was about to start a new semester like my

18:28

final semester or two and

18:31

I just had this feeling of like , I'm

18:33

not going back , like I'm , I'm

18:35

not going back to school . I was like , okay , I'm

18:37

going to just see how you know , we'll see how that feels . Fast

18:41

forward a little bit through all the drama of like am I

18:43

really going to drop out of college or take a

18:45

huge break ? And

18:48

I ended up feeling to go to

18:50

Utah and hang out there . Like

18:52

I said , I do music and so at the time

18:55

, the reason I thought I was going to Utah

18:57

was to try to become

18:59

a YouTuber . Like , do music

19:01

, get on YouTube . And I got

19:03

connected with a lot of people in that community , had

19:05

a good time . It didn't work out

19:07

, but it ended up connecting me with a friend

19:10

who

19:12

she does yoga stuff , like she's a yoga

19:14

teacher , and I

19:16

was in a little bit of a prideful it's

19:18

like I always laugh about this cause she

19:20

did a like she did some

19:22

yoga and a sound bath . I

19:24

don't know if you guys know what that is , but it's like you

19:27

know crystal stinging bowls and you

19:29

just relax that whole thing

19:31

. And afterward I went up to her and I was like

19:33

, hey , where'd you get the music you're using ? Cause

19:36

? I was like it's not that good , which is so , it's

19:39

so prideful , like

19:41

it's just very pompous .

19:43

Like , and I think sometimes it's just observing it's

19:46

like you just know that there could be something better . So that's

19:49

, it's not prideful .

19:50

I mean it's nice of you to say that . I think

19:52

I was in a prideful space , like , or I was just trying

19:54

to show off like hey , I could make music

19:56

. That's better than that for

19:59

yoga . And she was like , oh , really , like

20:01

, let's talk about it . So I

20:03

was actually trying to make like a money deal

20:05

out of it , like let me make , let me make you some music

20:08

, you can pay me , it'll be

20:10

cool . And what ended up happening ? After

20:13

writing like the first song with her , I

20:15

was like dang , I love this . Like

20:17

I love this feeling of music having

20:20

a greater purpose than just like I want to get

20:22

famous . You know

20:24

, letting people actually feel their emotions

20:27

and have an opportunity to heal . So this

20:29

all started like back to your

20:31

question , ken like it it started to converge

20:34

on this , like giving myself space

20:36

to heal emotions , or maybe

20:38

okay , like she would say that in the yoga

20:41

classes , like it's okay to have

20:43

emotions , and I'm like , oh , I don't know if that's true

20:45

, I was in a pretty , pretty

20:47

scary place with my emotions , but

20:50

it was so cool to to

20:52

see the

20:54

people that God guided me to . And

20:56

then from there we ended up like

20:58

that's , you know , yoga is kind of an Eastern philosophy

21:00

type thing . I

21:03

ended up learning about some like

21:05

energy healing modalities , which I know

21:07

is probably a massive trigger word , depending

21:09

on who we are . But

21:11

I did go . I went to an energy

21:13

healing conference and I was like this

21:16

stuff is stupid , I don't want anything to do with this

21:18

. And then , like a few hours later

21:20

, I was like , oh crap , like that same thing keeps

21:22

happening to me , like , oh , dang it , I think

21:24

I'm going to learn from this stuff . You know

21:27

, and you know I'm not trying to make

21:29

a plug or anything for energy

21:31

work like that . I feel like God guided

21:33

me through that in a way that helps me take pieces

21:35

, that really felt true and

21:38

that gave me that beautiful gift

21:40

of a question . It's like what is

21:42

really going on , what's down in the roots

21:44

?

21:45

So what are the ?

21:46

things that you discovered as as you

21:48

started digging into those , those roots

21:50

, and not just with pornography , but with

21:52

with other emotions .

21:55

Oh yeah , it's like

21:58

that question is essentially telling me everything about

22:00

your entire life . So let me , let me not

22:02

do that .

22:03

Way to go Ken .

22:05

I love it . That's a great question

22:07

. So

22:11

, yeah , the beginning it's

22:14

really . It was really cool , because sometimes , sometimes

22:16

you ask yourself questions like that and you get stuck . You're

22:18

like I don't really know what's going on , like

22:21

I know there's something , I can feel there's something

22:23

. Um , I

22:25

started my first step was really

22:27

starting to just observe what's happening , like

22:29

, okay , this is my pattern . When I'm really

22:31

stressed or when I feel like I

22:33

doubt my potential to be successful

22:36

or those kinds of things , I would just notice

22:38

my patterns and triggers . Um

22:41

, as I was pondering

22:43

those questions , I started to feel this , almost

22:46

this interaction with my friends where

22:48

it felt like God was just bringing people

22:51

like all day long . I remember writing in my

22:53

journal like it feels like I had five

22:55

conversations today that were all so

22:58

inspired , even without me bringing

23:00

stuff up , I'd have a friend be like you know , I've been thinking

23:02

about shame . I'm like , no way , I'm like

23:04

me too . Or , yeah , I've been thinking about

23:06

whatever it was . Um , so

23:09

, so a couple of the moments that feel really impactful

23:11

for me as far as learning what roots

23:13

, what root issues were going on . I

23:15

remember one of my good friends . Um

23:18

, after just having a conversation , she

23:21

saw some pattern in me and she

23:23

she just was noticing how I was talking

23:25

about another friendship and

23:27

she's like hey , kyson , do you have

23:29

a savior complex ? And

23:32

I seriously was like , wow , what's ? What's

23:34

so interesting is I was like 26

23:36

and I didn't know what

23:38

that meant . Isn't that so crazy ?

23:41

Like to me , that's so why don't you tell the

23:43

? I'm sure that there's audience , audience members who

23:45

are listening , who have no idea , but that's

23:47

yeah .

23:48

I think they said this though why don't you tell us real quick

23:50

, yeah totally , and I

23:52

actually asked her in the moment , right , I was like I don't

23:54

really know what that is , um

23:56

, but it's this , this pattern of like trying to save

23:59

everybody , you know , like

24:01

, how do you rescue them ? Usually

24:03

it's like emotionally , spiritually , right , like

24:05

I'm responsible for you , making sure

24:07

you feel good about this situation , or if you're

24:10

feeling anxious , I'll fix it . If you're feeling

24:12

alone , I'll fix it . Um , and

24:15

this is pattern of just like sacrificing

24:17

yourself for everybody , just trying

24:19

to be a hero , um , but

24:21

in the most unhealthy way , right .

24:24

When the in a way that that actually hurts

24:26

you right For the most part , you

24:28

know .

24:29

Yeah , absolutely . So . What was

24:31

interesting is I kind of like started

24:33

to open to that question and

24:35

I started realizing like , okay , I might have

24:37

a little bit of that pattern going on . It

24:39

was a ton , like everything I was

24:41

doing was based on it . Um

24:43

, and then , within a few weeks I think another

24:46

friend mentioned

24:48

this idea that , like Kaisen , I think you might be

24:50

be dealing with some shame and

24:54

the same thing happened . I was like , wait , shame

24:56

. I don't even know what you're talking about . Like what is that

24:58

? I've heard ? Obviously I know the concept , but

25:00

I had never actually looked at like , am I

25:03

feeling shame ? And you

25:06

know , I guess I'm getting very nostalgic . Like I have

25:08

all these moments that I remember , but one of the powerful

25:11

moments around shame . It

25:13

took me a few days of pondering that like , do

25:16

I have shame or no ? And I was

25:18

laying on the floor in my

25:20

house and just chatting with some

25:22

of my roommates and then I sort of just like closed

25:25

my eyes and was like dozing off . And

25:27

all of a sudden , this download , where

25:30

it was almost like a life review

25:32

, but a short life review , like where

25:34

the spirit just brought up like memories from

25:36

when I was tiny , all the way up to where I was

25:39

and it was just like shame , shame

25:41

, shame , shame . I could see this pattern of

25:43

like basically shame is the thing

25:45

I know . It's like my operating system

25:48

at the time . So

25:50

, anyway , it was just really

25:52

cool to have those friends love

25:54

me enough and go out on a

25:56

limb enough to ask like such an intense

25:58

question , and

26:01

I feel like God had really set the stage for me

26:03

to actually be able to ask them without freaking

26:05

out . I was able to actually check like

26:08

am I feeling shame ? So that's

26:10

what I started to find down in the roots is like

26:12

tons of shame , tons

26:14

of trying to save other people . I

26:18

started to realize that I had given up so

26:20

much of my like my desire

26:23

because I sacrificed basically

26:25

who I was so I could just

26:27

like meet everybody's needs . I

26:30

remember people asking like hey , where

26:32

do you want to go for food ? And

26:34

like I'd seriously be thinking like where do

26:36

they want to go for food and how can I discern

26:39

that ? So I could tell them that answer , like

26:42

I don't even know what I want , I just am

26:45

trying to be what other people want and

26:47

it's . There was a really unhealthy way to

26:49

connect and lead anyway

26:51

led to a lot of different things , but it was

26:54

at one of the big roots of my pornography

26:56

struggle .

26:56

Do you think that a part of the reason why

26:58

you had that savior complex and why

27:00

you felt the need to , like you

27:03

know , be constantly thinking about those other people first

27:05

is because you didn't know who you were ?

27:09

Hmm .

27:12

I'd say that's for sure . Yeah

27:15

, I've never phrased it like that , but I'd

27:17

say that definitely fits Like

27:19

a disconnect from who I was

27:21

. Maybe that's one of the things that shame

27:23

does . Right , it's like shame . Shame

27:27

is kind of this attitude of like you

27:29

need to fix your actions . It

27:31

doesn't matter who you are , what your journey is

27:33

or what you're struggling with . You need to stop or

27:36

start acting the way you're supposed to . Right

27:39

, when I feel like true gospel change

27:41

is like come to Jesus

27:43

, bring everything you got , let

27:46

him look at it , look at it with him and

27:48

then change your heart and

27:50

then your beliefs . You know your thoughts

27:53

, your actions will change naturally

27:55

as a result . Right

27:58

.

27:59

Yeah , that's super interesting .

28:02

So I feel like maybe that even

28:04

just what

28:07

we just explained that's , that was sort of

28:09

the pattern of the next

28:11

parts of my

28:13

life is just starting to ask over and over what

28:16

else is down there , what else is going on . And

28:20

it was interesting . I didn't notice like

28:22

I'd start to see pockets of like oh , I

28:24

didn't use porn for a month like that was pretty cool

28:26

. Or two months Not a huge

28:29

shift , though still a lot of temptation

28:31

and I

28:33

did get to like

28:35

, if you kind of like summarize

28:37

the next couple years , I

28:40

ended up meeting my wife and I

28:42

ended up doing better , let's

28:44

say like I didn't . You know , I didn't

28:46

struggle nearly as much . I

28:49

was able to like worthily enter

28:52

the temple and get married and that was all awesome

28:54

. And you know , there's there

28:57

was still maybe some pattern of shame there , because

28:59

I think I used the fear of like , okay

29:01

, now that I'm married , I like just can't struggle

29:03

. That'd be terrible if you struggled , so

29:05

I won't . And maybe

29:09

for the first six months of my , of

29:11

my marriage , I did good

29:13

like I didn't use pornography

29:15

, but I felt tempted pretty much every day

29:18

. So you know , I'd be like , let's , I just

29:20

got to play call of duty to distract myself , or

29:22

I got to get on my phone . A lot of

29:24

distraction . And again , you

29:26

know , there was another layer of like stuff

29:28

down in the roots and I

29:31

had a coach at the time who was coaching me

29:33

on . I had started coaching others

29:35

on different things , right on shame and anxiety

29:37

and whatever and I

29:40

had a coach who again

29:42

, just another person that brought a

29:45

beautiful conversation

29:47

to my life that changed everything . I

29:49

remember him helping me see through

29:52

a bunch of questions . He helped me see that I

29:55

had been blaming pretty

29:57

much everybody in my life for

30:00

my emotions . You know

30:02

I'm feeling upset or scared or not

30:04

good enough , but instead I was just

30:06

blaming everybody , like my parents aren't doing

30:08

this enough and my wife's not giving me enough

30:11

appreciation and validation and whatever

30:13

. And what

30:15

was so interesting is I wasn't getting coached on

30:17

pornography . That wasn't the purpose of that

30:19

session . It was just about

30:21

my business . And that's what came up is this accountability

30:24

and blaming . And there

30:26

was a moment after like realizing how

30:28

intensely I had been blaming my

30:30

coach . His name is Daniel Adams , an

30:32

incredible dude

30:35

. Yeah , alicia , you know him .

30:36

Yeah , he was a guest too A

30:39

little while ago on our show , so he's

30:41

good people man .

30:43

yeah , that guy is just like a soul hug

30:45

. I love it .

30:46

He is . That's the perfect description

30:48

for him .

30:50

And I remember this , at the end of the session

30:52

he goes all right , kyson , so are you ready to

30:54

commit to be 100%

30:57

accountable for your thoughts and emotions

30:59

and actions ? And the question

31:01

scared me a ton , but I

31:03

, after thinking about it , I said

31:06

yes , I'm willing to commit to practice

31:08

that . So here's what's crazy

31:10

is on . And that day

31:12

, like that exact day relative

31:16

to pornography , I think of it this way

31:18

it was like the waters were still . There

31:20

was no temptation . I

31:22

experienced three months of like

31:24

full . I call it freedom . It was the first

31:26

time in my life that I wasn't having

31:29

to like run from it because I was so tempted

31:31

. And so , you

31:34

know , I experienced freedom for three months and

31:36

then , you know , stuff would pop up again . We're like well

31:39

, I'm feeling tempted , but it was a new thing . Instead

31:41

of like , my daily struggle was

31:43

like whoa , that's crazy . I'm feeling tempted

31:45

today . What's going on , what's beneath

31:47

it ? And it started . This is where things started

31:50

become joyful . Like things

31:52

were joyful , I think , even a

31:54

little earlier , when I started to learn things

31:56

about myself . But this is where , like

31:59

, true joy came in , because I would start to learn

32:01

things about myself that I

32:03

didn't know . Like things really powerful

32:05

things like beneath

32:09

, like beneath my temptation , a lot

32:11

of times there's , there are spiritual

32:13

gifts and strengths that I was afraid

32:15

to step into or use or that I

32:17

had been ignoring . I

32:20

don't know . Can I share one of those ?

32:21

Yeah , I was actually just gonna ask you .

32:26

Yeah , this is like where it started to feel

32:28

so fun , like I felt like God was teaching me

32:30

some of the mysteries of my universe

32:32

, of like who I am . I remember

32:35

in a fast and

32:37

testimony meeting , everyone was like getting

32:39

up and bearing testimony . I

32:42

would struggle with those a lot because I'm

32:44

really discerning of people's

32:46

intentions and sometimes

32:48

I'd have very judgmental thoughts

32:51

and be like , oh , that feels fake

32:53

or why are they crying ? And then I'd beat myself up

32:55

for being so judgmental , like come on , kyson

32:57

, that's so rude , you should just like

32:59

listen . So one day this

33:02

girl got up , she started talking and

33:04

immediately I heard this phrase

33:06

in my mind . I heard she's so

33:08

stupid , which is so like

33:11

right , it sounds so mean . And I

33:13

immediately started just beating myself up like

33:15

dude , kyson , you are so mean

33:17

, you know . I started just tearing into myself and

33:20

I got this little impression that was like wait , kyson

33:22

, before you beat yourself

33:24

up , ask a question . And

33:27

I was like , okay , put

33:29

you know , push pause on the self criticism

33:32

. And then I was like what is , what's the question

33:34

I'm supposed to ask ? And the question

33:36

that came to my mind was was that thought

33:38

of she's so stupid ? Was that ? Was

33:41

that my thought and

33:43

I asked that question and I got

33:46

a super clear no , that

33:48

wasn't yours , wow , so

33:50

you know it took some time to understand

33:52

. Like what ? What does that even mean ? If it's not mine

33:54

, it was in my head . What's going on ? What

33:57

I started to learn is that at times , occasionally

34:00

, I will discern people's like

34:02

subconscious fears or thoughts

34:04

, and I know it's a pretty

34:06

intense thing to claim

34:08

.

34:09

But as I started , that like

34:11

gave me chills , literally . I was like

34:13

what ?

34:16

Yeah , it's so . It was a really interesting

34:18

time to realize like wait , I'm not just broken

34:20

, like I'm not just supposed to stop criticizing

34:22

people and I can't figure it out . It's that

34:24

I had a gift I didn't understand . So

34:27

I had a few more experiences where

34:29

, like after that time where I'd meet somebody

34:31

and just like hear something , I

34:34

remember like shaking a girl's hand and I

34:36

heard I hate you because you're a man , and

34:38

I was like , okay , I'm just gonna like I

34:40

don't know where that came from , let me list , let me just like

34:42

observe and I just like

34:45

treated her nice and as she was talking

34:47

to someone else , we were all getting to know each other

34:49

. She mentioned like , yeah , my dad left

34:51

me and my mom when we were younger and

34:54

, you know , had a bunch of like pretty

34:57

intense feelings about it . So , just

35:00

an interesting like . It was an interesting

35:02

twist to realize like , oh , maybe beneath

35:04

all the stuff I struggle with , maybe

35:06

God is trying to show me that I have some

35:09

gifts and some strengths , and

35:11

I would say that that pretty much summarizes

35:15

like everything I've done in this

35:17

. It's been like , you know , the last four years has

35:19

basically been understanding

35:22

what strengths and gifts I have that have been either

35:24

turned upside down , misunderstood

35:27

or , like that , have been hidden

35:29

beneath my struggle with pornography

35:31

.

35:33

Wow , I love

35:35

that perspective so much because I like

35:38

one of my favorite things that I could talk for

35:41

days and days and days on end about is

35:44

the need for us to become who God wants

35:46

us to be . Right , it did just that

35:48

discovering who

35:50

we were in the pre-existence and

35:52

who we're meant to become in

35:55

the next life and I like

35:58

, when you were talking about that , I thought about that . I'm like that

36:01

makes perfect sense why Satan

36:03

would try so hard to

36:05

get us to fall in something . And

36:08

you know , for you it was the pornography

36:10

. For me , food addiction

36:12

was like my thing for a really , really , really

36:14

long time . And money , Like

36:17

I spend money really badly . And

36:19

then for someone else it might be

36:21

gambling . For someone else it might be lying . For

36:23

someone else it might be laziness or

36:27

gaining way too much right Like

36:29

video games too much , or whatever

36:31

fill in the blank . But I

36:34

can see how Satan would totally

36:36

try to use the thing

36:38

that we're going to be weakest at to

36:41

bury the things that we're meant to be

36:43

strongest at

36:45

. I can absolutely see how

36:47

that would work out and

36:49

I love , I think , that

36:52

. I know I personally

36:54

like my patriarchal blessing

36:56

talks about my gifted discernment and I know I

36:58

have some friends who have

37:00

the same gift or whatever and

37:02

when you look it up in the Bible dictionary there's

37:04

just like a little blip , Like there's not a whole

37:07

lot of information on

37:09

what that gifted discernment is . So it's

37:11

awesome that you have that perspective of

37:13

could it include that

37:16

you're able to even discern the thoughts of

37:18

other people too , Like the feelings , the

37:20

emotions , and maybe ones that they don't even

37:22

recognize that they're having , Like the girl

37:24

that shook your hand .

37:25

I don't .

37:26

I don't assume that she would consciously be

37:28

like yeah , I hate you because you're a man type

37:30

of thing . But if

37:33

you were able to understand that on a deeper level

37:35

, I can definitely see how . One

37:37

, that can help you to not have judgment

37:40

in an unrighteous way , and two

37:42

, to be able to show compassion and Christlike

37:44

love towards the other person . So

37:47

that's amazing and , on top of it , would

37:49

make you an even more powerful coach

37:51

. Right Like to be able

37:53

to know what it is that that the people you're

37:55

working with are feeling and thinking , and to

37:57

kind of guide them down that journey of figuring

38:00

out for themselves what they're thinking and feeling

38:02

, like not just giving it to them right , but just like

38:04

asking the questions that will lead them to that own

38:07

understanding . I think that that's . That's

38:09

amazing .

38:10

Okay , yeah , yeah , thanks .

38:14

Sorry , that was just a whole bunch of word vomit .

38:16

But that's beautiful . I think you're right .

38:18

Yeah , so well

38:21

, I want to kind of rewind just a little bit because

38:23

I know that there's going to be some

38:25

people that bring this up about the energy healing

38:27

right , and I know this is not like

38:30

you said , this isn't like a plug for energy work but

38:32

I do think that sometimes we're so

38:34

turned off to the tools and resources

38:36

that are out there because we have a misunderstanding

38:39

of them . That I'm

38:42

not gonna say it makes Heavenly Father's job harder , but

38:44

it definitely makes everything easier when

38:46

we're a little open , not so open

38:49

I've said this before not so open that our brains

38:51

fall out Like we don't want to be open

38:53

to , to everything

38:55

and everywhere , but knowing that the

38:57

scriptures talk about wherever there's good

38:59

, there's God , right , like Heavenly Father

39:01

. That's how you know the fruits of the Spirit is

39:04

. You know if it's charity , if it's

39:06

love it's , if it's something that that

39:08

does good , that

39:11

thing can be of God . So maybe not

39:13

every aspect of it , but there's always

39:15

a way to learn from different

39:18

resources , different faiths

39:20

, different experiences , different people's

39:22

perspectives . And

39:24

I think you know , in

39:26

regards to things like energy healing or

39:28

anything else that you want to look into , whether it's traditional

39:31

medicine or therapies

39:34

or whatever , and

39:37

maybe you have a suggestion for listeners too

39:39

, but my suggestion is

39:41

to go into it , making

39:44

sure that you constantly check back with the

39:46

Spirit , you know . Can

39:48

you show me the truth in this ? Can

39:51

you show me how it connects to God's plan for me ? Can

39:53

you show me how it can open doors

39:55

so that I can walk down a path

39:58

that's gonna lead me to more resources ? What

40:01

would you say to people who maybe

40:04

are starting to look for stuff but they don't even know

40:06

where to look , because you said you

40:08

had a lot of things just kind of come into your path . How

40:12

did they do that ? How did they be open

40:14

to receiving information and resources

40:16

and help ?

40:19

I think you summed it up perfectly Just checking

40:21

in and saying what is right , asking

40:23

Heavenly Father , can you guide me ? I

40:28

love the guiding principle of all

40:30

good things lead to Christ , all truth leads

40:32

to Him . So

40:35

I would definitely say that I

40:38

also kind

40:40

of want to answer . There's an experience that

40:42

kind of opened the floodgates

40:44

for God to guide

40:47

me , I think . So , if you're feeling

40:49

like okay , I'm ready for guidance , but like why is it not

40:51

coming ? And this kind of rewinds

40:54

back to around the shame discovery

40:57

, when that friend asked me that question , I

40:59

remember one time just praying

41:02

like I had been struggling again with pornography

41:04

, and I remember asking God like what's going

41:06

on ? I'm like reading my scriptures , I'm

41:08

doing my whatever , ministering

41:10

, going to church , I'm like actively

41:13

trying to do this thing , but nothing

41:15

is changing . And after

41:18

some real time , like in

41:20

prayer , I had

41:22

this this little whisper

41:24

of like kind

41:27

of a discernment of what was in my own , what thoughts

41:29

I had chosen into , what subconscious

41:31

beliefs I had , and I just

41:33

saw really clearly oh , I've been

41:35

telling myself for years I

41:38

know God will help me , I know Jesus wants

41:41

to help me and he helps other people , but

41:43

then the rule I had set for myself

41:45

is Jesus will help me . After

41:47

I fix myself a little bit more , like

41:50

up to this degree , and

41:52

all of a sudden it was like so clear I

41:54

feel like Heavenly Father was showing me like well , I

41:56

want to help you , but you don't want me to help

41:59

yet , so that's why it's not changing

42:01

, you know . And so , interestingly

42:04

, as I made that shift and said , okay , I'm gonna

42:06

let you help me , even though it's scary

42:08

and I'm not sure if I deserve it , like all those

42:11

fears , that's actually what opened

42:13

all the floodgates for friendships and

42:15

conversations and you

42:17

know , whatever . the bits and pieces

42:19

from energy healing , the bits and pieces

42:21

from yoga . I've

42:23

loved life coaching as a

42:25

guiding . I'm sure you can both attest

42:28

to that Like it's such a cool

42:30

way to see the world . So

42:32

, yeah , I would say , do

42:35

that check of . Like all good things lead to Christ

42:37

, does this lead to Christ ? And then also

42:40

the check of am I allowing God to

42:42

? Do I actually allow

42:44

Jesus to help me right now , or

42:46

am I trying to do it myself ?

42:48

Right which goes back to that

42:50

savior complex that not

42:52

only were you trying to help everybody else , but you were trying to prevent

42:54

him from helping you , because

42:57

you had already established the rules .

43:00

Yeah 100% .

43:01

Yeah , oh , I love that that

43:03

. What's cool about that , too , is that that

43:05

ends up being one of the things I teach

43:08

all my clients , or coach all my clients through is

43:10

like , if you're struggling with porn , I can basically

43:12

guarantee that you're struggling

43:15

with trying to save people and that you're

43:17

not letting the savior step in with you , and

43:20

I mean that's common with a lot of different problems

43:22

. But what and I

43:24

guess I'll say this , I'm kind of jumping all

43:26

over , but the thing that was so

43:29

fun after this moment

43:31

with my coach , daniel , where

43:33

I was like whoa , I experienced freedom . I

43:35

basically started to just see that freedom grow

43:37

and grow and grow , and every time

43:39

temptation would come up . Instead of like

43:42

relapsing or getting pulled , you know

43:44

, really close to a relapse , I started to

43:46

really build my rebuild

43:48

my habits of oh , temptation means I

43:51

ask questions . It's just a springboard to

43:53

God and I almost would say it

43:55

was like a I'd say it as a joke

43:57

like kind of like in your face , satan , because if you

43:59

tempt me , I'm gonna go ask questions , you

44:01

know .

44:02

Talk a little bit more about that , because I think that's really powerful

44:05

. Yeah , and I think that

44:07

it would be unfair to

44:10

listeners for you to just skip over

44:12

that with that one sentence . So talk a little bit more

44:14

about how you would deal with temptation , with questions .

44:16

Yeah , totally , I'll

44:20

bring up my . This is my formula for temptation

44:22

. So I learned one time

44:24

talking with a client that I

44:28

think 100% of the time when there is

44:30

temptation , there's actually a good

44:32

desire beneath it . So

44:34

I'll explain with just like a short story

44:36

. I had a client who was

44:39

struggling with pornography and

44:41

the start of our phone call was like hey , dude

44:43

, I relapsed again . He was super sad and

44:45

I was like okay , let's talk about it , let's figure

44:48

out what was going on . So

44:50

he expressed the first thing he

44:52

said as well , I've really wanted to get

44:54

closer to my wife and have a better intimate

44:56

relationship with my wife . So

44:58

instead of oh

45:01

, okay , so there's this good desire , right

45:03

, Like I want to be close to my wife , but

45:05

I'm afraid of having those conversations

45:07

. So all

45:09

of a sudden , like everything clicked , Like there's this like

45:12

snap moment of like wait , don't

45:14

forget what just happened . So

45:16

there's a good desire plus a

45:18

fear that he couldn't accomplish it . Therefore

45:21

, temptation came in as a loophole when

45:24

it was like a self-sabotage yeah

45:26

. Totally .

45:28

Like oh no , I can't live up to that . So

45:30

I better prove to myself that

45:32

I can't live up to that .

45:34

Not even give yourself a chance

45:36

to live up to it .

45:37

Yeah , instead of trying and seeing how it goes

45:39

, he chose into , like , well

45:42

, I'm just going to like look up stuff online , and

45:44

eventually that turned into looking

45:46

at pornography , and so it was

45:48

so cool , and I didn't know I

45:50

was doing that before , but like that was when God

45:52

kind of solidified what I was understanding

45:55

. So every time temptation would pop

45:57

up , I'd look for , okay , what's the good

45:59

desire , and then what's the fear ? What am I

46:01

afraid of ? Right now ? There must be

46:03

a fear or there is no temptation , and

46:07

so I've even had

46:09

. What was so cool is like I would start

46:11

to see like I said with the freedom

46:13

, there was a lack of temptation , and

46:15

then I'd even see it go as far as like

46:17

, if something spicy

46:20

, let's say , popped up on social

46:22

media , instead of like , oh no , I got to throw

46:25

my phone or like exit the app and run away

46:27

, it would honestly start to feel

46:29

like wait , I don't even want that

46:31

, like I would have to push , I would have

46:33

to like fight to get to pornography . That was the

46:35

way it started to feel , and

46:37

so what

46:39

I started doing is focusing

46:42

way less on counting how many days I was

46:44

going , and started

46:46

focusing on how often am I feeling tempted

46:48

and what questions am I asking about myself

46:50

? And what I love

46:52

about that is that

46:55

it brings progress . Like

46:57

when you ask questions about yourself , you

46:59

learn things God will teach you . And it

47:01

brings a type of progress that cannot

47:03

be taken away by a relapse

47:05

, cause usually you know

47:08

, when you relapse all of anyone

47:10

who struggled with porn , like , we've all said this

47:12

kind of stuff to ourselves like , oh , I'm back to square one

47:14

, back to zero , got to start from nothing

47:17

. Well , that's not true . If you learn

47:19

about yourself , and

47:21

even if you relapsed yesterday , let's start to ask

47:23

questions about what good desire , what

47:26

strength , what beautiful

47:28

thing do you want to accomplish that

47:30

you're afraid that you can't have ? And

47:33

then how can we like step in with Jesus

47:36

and accomplish that I

47:38

think of I love sharing this

47:40

like I think of Peter walking on water

47:42

. We

47:45

get really focused on the failure part of

47:47

that where , oh , he fell in and

47:49

it's really cool that Jesus saves him . But

47:51

if you go just a few verses before that , like

47:54

Peter was so committed to his desire

47:56

that he literally asked for something

47:58

he's never heard of . Like you

48:01

know , jesus was like it's me , I'm not a ghost

48:03

out on the water . And Peter literally

48:06

says if it's you , then

48:08

tell me to come walk to you , like

48:11

, look at that pattern or that beautiful example

48:13

of desire and then like , trusting

48:15

that through Jesus he could accomplish it . And

48:18

you know there's an end to the story of like more practice

48:21

. He needs more practice walking on water . That's

48:23

okay .

48:24

But at least he got out of the boat you

48:26

know , Like , at least he got

48:29

out of the boat and yes , he may . It might have started

48:31

to sink eventually , but he got out

48:33

. You know which ? How much easier

48:35

would it be for him to the next time , get

48:38

out of the boat and walk a little further , right ?

48:40

So I just to add to that , I

48:42

remember hearing something that when Jesus said , oh

48:44

you little faith , he wasn't , he was

48:46

talking about a man of faith , it was duration

48:49

oh , you have short

48:51

term faith and which

48:53

changed the story for me as well .

48:55

Wow , I love that .

48:56

Sometimes you can have that short term faith , and now we just

48:58

gotta stretch it just a little bit , wow

49:00

.

49:00

That's beautiful . I love that . Well , yeah

49:02

, cause it talks all the time about the ability

49:05

to endure , right To endure to the

49:07

end . So that would make more sense than

49:09

having a huge quality

49:12

of it Right and instead just

49:14

having this like long you know it

49:16

could even the faith of mustard seed right , so

49:18

maybe that feels so much

49:20

more tangible .

49:23

It's like a muscle that okay , so I can do faith

49:25

this long . And now , with

49:27

a little bit of practice , and it's the same thing with

49:30

your overcoming pornography

49:32

that you have this freedom that lasted

49:34

this long and that can continue to

49:36

grow . Oh , I love that

49:38

.

49:39

And , yeah , maybe a cool way to say and a cool

49:41

application for anyone at home is like

49:43

whatever you're struggling with , it

49:45

doesn't have to be as big as pornography or

49:48

something that big . Give

49:51

yourself a chance to check what's

49:53

my good desire . Trust that you have a good

49:55

desire beneath that struggle . Have

49:58

, exercise that faith for a minute , right

50:00

, and say I'm gonna look at my desire and

50:02

I'm gonna look at the fear I have , and

50:05

then basically take that to God and

50:07

say what would you teach me ? You know , is

50:09

there something we can do to create this good desire

50:12

together ? Is there something

50:14

you wanna teach me about myself or who

50:16

I am ? Is there a gift that I have

50:19

that you haven't ? You know

50:21

that I haven't discovered

50:23

yet Like this and

50:25

I guess that ties back to our opening

50:27

remark that like it is a truly joyful

50:29

journey . Yeah , you

50:31

can start today and you

50:33

know it's not like you're gonna be perfect today . That's not the goal . It's

50:37

not men are that they might be perfect , it's men

50:39

are that they might have joy , right

50:42

. So , wow , I never said that before

50:44

. That feels good .

50:45

I love that .

50:46

It feels very good .

50:47

It does and one of the things you referenced

50:50

it earlier about how asking

50:52

those questions about yourself was scary and

50:55

once you started you

50:58

gained the courage to ask God

51:00

questions about you and

51:02

you were able to learn about you . That

51:04

, it sounds like to me , is where some

51:06

of that joy came in and that's gonna get

51:08

rid of some of the shame as well , because the shame says I'm

51:11

a bad person and then as you

51:13

learn these truths from God about who

51:15

you are to him and

51:17

that starts to build , then you start

51:19

to see that also makes it easier to

51:21

get rid of the shame that no , I am

51:23

a person with distinct gifts

51:26

and talents and abilities and am

51:29

worthy of his love and

51:31

commitment .

51:35

Yeah , I'm a good

51:37

person having an experience . I'm

51:39

a good person experiencing

51:41

shame or anxiety or

51:43

fear . Yeah

51:45

, I like that , and it points right to Jesus

51:48

. That's

51:50

something that's so interesting too , because

51:53

since in the last , it's

51:55

been about three years since I started coaching

51:57

other men struggling with pornography and

52:00

it's been so cool to see the patterns that

52:02

fit for different people , to see how

52:04

many of us are just like . It's

52:06

almost word for word . I'm afraid to let Jesus

52:09

help me and a lot of times

52:11

we just again put shame on it

52:13

and say , well , you should let him help you . But

52:16

one of my favorite things to help people ask

52:19

like questions to consider is

52:21

like , okay , well , let's just talk about it . Why are you afraid

52:23

that you don't deserve his help ? Or

52:26

what fear comes up if you were to

52:29

stand right next to him ? You

52:31

know what ? What fears do you have

52:33

about letting Jesus help your family members

52:35

instead of you being the one that sacrifices

52:38

all the time ? There's just so many beautiful

52:40

questions to ask and really

52:43

beautiful things to learn about ourselves .

52:47

And then and the great thing about that is having a coach

52:49

, or having it could be a ministry

52:51

brother , it could be a close friend , but

52:53

somebody that you can have confidence

52:56

is going to support you

52:58

as you're going through that experience , because

53:00

those questions can

53:03

be terrifying , and having somebody who's going to hold

53:05

that space for you and let you discover

53:08

you is that's

53:11

really powerful and that's where a lot of that growth can come from

53:13

.

53:15

Well , and I love how you mentioned

53:17

this pattern of just

53:19

asking questions , constantly asking

53:21

questions , because I feel like that is so

53:24

true to the way that the Savior taught

53:26

you know , like in the scriptures , he

53:28

would ask questions all the time

53:30

and then he would give these analogies

53:33

and he would help us to understand things based

53:35

on real world experiences

53:39

that were happening then . And

53:41

so I know sometimes it makes it a little harder

53:43

for us in this day to be able

53:45

to understand what all is happening in the scriptures

53:48

, because we don't talk like that or those aren't the things

53:50

that necessarily happen in our day

53:52

to day , like we don't have ox in the mire type of thing

53:54

, right . But I love that

53:56

the pattern he set up is to

53:58

ask questions and then to be open

54:01

to learning from life and

54:03

from other people's stories and from

54:05

experiences and from the day to days

54:07

that we're going through ourselves , which

54:11

just kind of makes me feel so grateful for

54:13

you , kyson , and for people

54:15

like you who are willing to take those

54:18

things that at one point made

54:21

them feel shame or made them feel a disconnect

54:23

from God , and to be really

54:25

raw and open and vulnerable about it and

54:28

to say look , I can

54:31

tell you that that's not . That's

54:34

not the way that we can feel joy , but

54:36

there is a way to feel joy . There is this

54:38

it's cliche as it sounds like there is a hope

54:40

in Jesus Christ , and there is hope

54:43

for our future , and not even just our future

54:45

. There is hope for right now , like literally

54:47

right now , right this second , we can make the

54:49

decision to feel joy , regardless

54:52

of where we're at in our journey , you

54:54

know and I just I love

54:56

that so much . I was thinking to

55:00

me . I

55:03

think as a woman , right , I

55:05

don't often look at , say

55:08

, my husband , for example , or my teenage

55:10

boys I've got two of them and I don't

55:12

think to myself that they have a lot

55:14

of emotions other than like

55:16

three . There's like anger , boredom

55:19

and happiness and like that . You know

55:21

what I mean , because they

55:23

don't tend to show a lot more than that , like

55:25

that's the most , I

55:28

guess , easily seen , and

55:31

I know as a woman . Actually

55:33

, there was a video I was watching today that

55:35

said they did this study

55:37

where they stuck a man in the room for 30

55:40

minutes by himself with nothing , Like there was nothing

55:42

stimulating in the room whatsoever , it was just him in

55:44

a white room with a couch , that's it . And

55:46

then they stuck a woman in the room and they did this with multiple

55:49

participants . And at the end of this

55:51

30 minute experiment

55:54

, they asked the men and the women

55:56

okay , what did you think about when you were in that

55:58

room ? And some huge

56:00

. It was like over 90% of the men thought about

56:03

sex and over 90%

56:05

of the women thought about conversations they had in

56:07

the last few days . Funny

56:09

, like we're so different

56:11

. And so when I think about that . I think one

56:14

Satan knows

56:16

the way that our Heavenly Father designed

56:19

each of us . He knows how he designed women

56:21

and he knows how he designed men . And

56:23

I do think that not that women can't have

56:25

this addiction with pornography , because we absolutely

56:27

can , and I don't know if

56:29

it's necessarily like the visual as much

56:31

as it is like the reading

56:34

right Like connection maybe . Yeah

56:37

, so I think a lot of women are that

56:39

struggle with that type of pattern

56:43

in their life . Is it kind of is

56:45

more on like the movies that they're watching and the books

56:47

that they're reading , because it makes us feel

56:49

the emotion of passion

56:51

or being loved or being

56:54

the object of desire or whatever . It is like having

56:56

someone who I don't know

56:58

, whatever right , and so like . So

57:00

that's most

57:02

commonly the way that women are addicted to

57:04

it , whereas men they're built

57:06

differently . Right , I swear I'm getting somewhere . So

57:09

my thought is , as

57:12

a man and as a priesthood holder

57:14

, I think that

57:16

Satan knows that pornography

57:19

is going to be a very , very big win because , like

57:21

you said , a lot of the men have the

57:23

same few underlying feelings of

57:25

like not being able to ask for help , not

57:29

knowing how to get rid of that shame and then having

57:31

that savior complex . Because men

57:34

are , they're built differently . They

57:36

are built to be able to be strong

57:38

and to be able to be the protector and the

57:40

provider for families and for loved ones . And

57:43

with the priesthood , you guys are built to

57:46

have this

57:48

beautiful power of God to change

57:51

the world . And so , naturally

57:53

, satan is going to take the

57:57

balanced opposite of the priesthood

58:00

, right , he's gonna take that

58:02

and he's gonna try very hard to

58:05

tip the scales for men , right

58:08

? So

58:10

my thought to you is , or I guess

58:12

my question to you is

58:14

have you noticed , have

58:18

you noticed a leveling

58:21

up , I guess , in your priesthood , as

58:24

you've been able to understand

58:26

the pornography , the

58:30

habit of pornography ? Have you felt

58:32

this like raise

58:34

in your ability to

58:37

be a better priesthood holder the more you overcome

58:39

your pornography and understand your pornography

58:42

addictions ?

58:43

Oh , that's a sweet question and quite the

58:46

setup too . I mean lots of , no

58:48

, lots of awesome thoughts . I'm

58:52

gonna do a little bit of a roundabout answer as

58:54

well that I think

58:56

, starting back with your

58:58

thought about like men and thinking

59:00

about sex . I think

59:02

you know I'm not saying this is

59:04

always the case . I'm sure there's such thing as just like high

59:06

sex drive , low sex drive , that's just a thing

59:08

. But what I've noticed in myself

59:11

and with quite a few of the people I have worked with

59:14

a lot of times obsession

59:17

over sex or and it's not just

59:19

sex , but like lustful you know what I mean Like if

59:21

you're in a place of lust it

59:23

usually is to compensate

59:25

for lack

59:28

of connection , lack of fulfillment

59:30

, lack

59:32

of love , especially self-love . So

59:34

it's interesting that you talk about this idea

59:36

that a lot of men don't show

59:38

their emotions . I think that's one of the biggest things

59:40

is we've told a story that men

59:43

aren't emotional or they're not supposed to be , so

59:45

they stuff it all down . That

59:47

makes them feel disconnected from everyone

59:50

in their life . And then it brings this question

59:52

of well , what's even my value ? You

59:54

know , if I'm not connected to people , my only value

59:56

is to solve other people's

59:58

needs , and if I can't do

1:00:00

that then I have no worth . The backup

1:00:03

is well , maybe I can at least be sexual

1:00:05

or wanted sexually , and that would prove

1:00:07

that I have worth . So

1:00:09

a lot of people experience , as they start to shift

1:00:11

those things , they experience a huge change

1:00:13

in their sex drive

1:00:16

, a huge change in like lustful thoughts , temptation

1:00:19

for pornography , that kind of stuff . So

1:00:22

I would say to like

1:00:24

get right to your question , as

1:00:26

I have opened myself

1:00:29

to more vulnerable , like

1:00:31

to be vulnerable with myself , weirdly enough

1:00:33

to ask deeper questions and

1:00:36

to really go on that journey

1:00:38

I've

1:00:40

definitely seen . The first thing

1:00:42

I've noticed is like a huge increase

1:00:44

in my ability to actually feel love

1:00:46

, not to pretend love or

1:00:49

to do actions that look loving , but

1:00:51

to actually feel love and connection . And

1:00:54

to me that feels just like hand

1:00:56

in hand with priesthood , like as

1:00:58

a to be a powerful priesthood holder . I

1:01:00

think the love of Jesus Christ , you know

1:01:02

, is like the most powerful piece I'm

1:01:05

thinking of the phrase after

1:01:07

, like the first and second commandment . It says on

1:01:10

this hang all the law and

1:01:12

the prophets . Like everything hangs on

1:01:14

this ability to love or to receive

1:01:16

God's charity and love and feel it for

1:01:18

other people and for yourself . So

1:01:21

yeah , I would say I

1:01:23

don't know if that answers the question , but it feels like it answers

1:01:25

the question .

1:01:26

It feels good to me .

1:01:29

I like that , and just something that is

1:01:31

interesting to me also is that when

1:01:33

you're in that shame cycle and you're a

1:01:36

lot of that you talked

1:01:38

about some of the behaviors that you did that would

1:01:40

kind of take some of those feelings away . As

1:01:42

you reduce your ability to feel the

1:01:44

bad feelings , you also reduce your

1:01:46

ability to feel the good feelings , and so as you

1:01:48

strip that away , that opens

1:01:51

you up to be a

1:01:53

cleaner conduit of

1:01:56

God's love for yourself as

1:01:58

well as for other people . I think that's a great

1:02:02

message

1:02:05

that you didn't say directly , but in

1:02:07

your story I heard that as you strip

1:02:10

that away , it became

1:02:12

much more clear to you that

1:02:15

you were a person that had tremendous worth .

1:02:18

Yeah , I love that phrase . A cleaner

1:02:20

conduit . That's beautiful .

1:02:22

I know I really like that . I'm going to have to go through

1:02:24

this whole episode and just

1:02:26

like write down all of these things . I joke with Scott

1:02:29

all the time . I'm going to make bumper stickers with

1:02:31

all of the cool things that our guests

1:02:33

and our guest co-hosts say . I'm going to just make bumper

1:02:36

stickers .

1:02:38

I love that . I was going to say

1:02:40

one more thing too , about emotions . Maybe

1:02:42

this is closer to our finalist thought , I don't know . But

1:02:46

I can't tell you how many of

1:02:48

my clients that are men . I do

1:02:50

work with men and women , but mostly focus on men

1:02:52

. How many of my clients that are men

1:02:54

that say like

1:02:57

, yeah , I have a really hard time sharing

1:02:59

my emotions ? And at first it feels like they're

1:03:01

saying I'm not very emotional , like I

1:03:03

don't share my emotions with people , I'm pretty like

1:03:05

stoic . And then , as I ask

1:03:07

a few questions , they'll be like , oh yeah , but then

1:03:10

, like about once a month , I'll just cry

1:03:12

like a baby and I don't want people to see that

1:03:14

. And so I realized , like dude , it's

1:03:17

so fun when they finally tell me that I'm like , oh , dude

1:03:19

, you're just , you're a sensitive , powerful

1:03:21

man . It's okay to be sensitive . Jesus

1:03:24

wept . That's one of the most powerful things

1:03:26

Enos saw God weep . Isn't that so powerful that

1:03:28

God wept for us ? We

1:03:32

love that about that

1:03:34

experience . And there

1:03:36

you know , for the men out there

1:03:38

, like you've got wife and kids and friends and

1:03:40

even guy friends , like

1:03:42

there's something special about

1:03:44

allowing yourself to just be vulnerable

1:03:47

. I got , I got the opportunity

1:03:49

to cry in front of . I

1:03:51

got one of my best friends , a man , so

1:03:54

two dudes hanging out and I let some tears come

1:03:56

through and he's an amazing

1:03:58

person . It felt , you

1:04:00

know , it's totally like a safe space to do that

1:04:02

and it was a huge gift to

1:04:04

be like myself . You know , I

1:04:07

feel like I don't know . There's a lot of different

1:04:09

patterns that come up . One

1:04:11

of the coolest ones is to see that that

1:04:14

it's okay for me to be me , yeah

1:04:16

, and I still want Jesus to like

1:04:18

, help me grow and all those things , but it

1:04:21

is okay to be me and to show up as me . I

1:04:23

don't need to show up pretending to be something

1:04:26

else , yeah .

1:04:28

I heard somebody say one time that when the tears come

1:04:30

, it really is . That's just awesome

1:04:33

leaking out .

1:04:38

Well , I have a whole lot of awesome that leaks out in all the

1:04:40

time .

1:04:44

What final message or

1:04:46

words of encouragement would you have for

1:04:49

people struggling either with pornography

1:04:51

or with something else , whether it's a shame cycle ? What

1:04:54

would you say to them ?

1:04:58

I would say that there is so much

1:05:00

hope . I think the big one

1:05:02

is I would invite everyone whether

1:05:04

you struggle with porn or you have

1:05:06

people you love , everyone has

1:05:08

someone they know that struggles with porn . It

1:05:11

is that common and I would say , to set

1:05:13

your sights beyond sobriety

1:05:16

. I even invite

1:05:19

people to like the word recovery to me feels

1:05:21

like it has , like you're still broken in

1:05:23

it . I would say to set your sights on like

1:05:26

true change , true

1:05:28

freedom , whatever word you want , to

1:05:30

trust that there is real change through Jesus

1:05:33

. And then

1:05:35

, with that hope and trust , I would

1:05:37

just invite you to every

1:05:39

day ask a

1:05:41

question that you haven't asked yet . Even

1:05:44

ask God . One of my favorite questions is Heavenly

1:05:47

Father . I know I'm stuck . What

1:05:49

question would you invite me to ask

1:05:51

right now ?

1:05:53

I love that .

1:05:54

And I mean there's just so . There is so

1:05:56

, so , so much hope . I

1:05:59

am so grateful for the changes that

1:06:01

God has has brought in

1:06:04

me or has created in me . I've

1:06:06

been willing to accept those changes and

1:06:08

I've seen so many people around me , people

1:06:11

I've coached , people that have coached me

1:06:14

, friendships I've built since then like people

1:06:16

really can change and grow . And

1:06:20

that is the message of hope in Christ that

1:06:22

there's real change .

1:06:24

That's fantastic . Well , thank

1:06:26

you , kyson , so much . This has just been so

1:06:28

enlightening and such a good I don't know . I just felt

1:06:31

good this whole interview

1:06:33

and and I

1:06:35

feel like there's so many good nuggets of truth

1:06:37

that we are we're able to take away

1:06:39

from this today . So thank you for being open and

1:06:41

for sharing your story and sharing your

1:06:43

success with us and sharing this journey

1:06:46

that you're on . Now . If anyone

1:06:48

is interested in coaching or

1:06:50

in learning more about some of the things that you've learned

1:06:52

, how , how

1:06:55

is it best for them to be able to get in touch with you ?

1:06:58

Yeah , I'm sure we can put this in the show notes , but I've

1:07:00

got a website , kyson kid

1:07:02

calm , and

1:07:04

that would be for my music

1:07:06

and also for coaching around pornography

1:07:09

. We're also launching in

1:07:11

the next couple of days . We've got a group

1:07:13

for men , like all

1:07:15

men , not just those that struggle with porn . So you'll

1:07:18

find all that right there on the website .

1:07:20

Okay , awesome , we'll be sure to take , take

1:07:22

those links and put them in our descriptions

1:07:24

too , so anyone can find them quickly . So

1:07:26

awesome , perfect . Well , thank you again

1:07:29

, kyson , and thank you Ken , for joining

1:07:31

us today for being our host . I really

1:07:33

really appreciate it and

1:07:36

thank you to all of our audience members . Guys , you

1:07:38

are awesome . We love just

1:07:40

how many people have tuned in and listened

1:07:42

and shared these stories . Please , please

1:07:45

, please , be sure to leave a comment below . Let

1:07:47

us know what your favorite part of kyson's

1:07:49

story and his , his

1:07:51

lessons that he talked to us today was , and

1:07:53

be sure to do your little five second mission and

1:07:57

hit that share button . Let's get this out to the rest of the world . Let's

1:08:00

make sure that we can share some more light with with

1:08:03

everybody else , and some hope and some direction

1:08:05

, and

1:08:07

let's see if you guys have a story that you'd like to

1:08:09

share , if you'd like to come and be a guest on

1:08:12

our show . We would love to hear from you . So head on over to

1:08:14

latterdaylightscom . There's

1:08:16

a form at the very bottom of the page that you can fill out and

1:08:18

you can send our way , and it's a pretty painless process

1:08:21

. I mean , right , kyson ? Good

1:08:23

, they actually read the emails which

1:08:25

is great .

1:08:27

Share the thoughts that you have

1:08:29

of the story . It doesn't have to be

1:08:31

anything big . It

1:08:34

doesn't have to be a lifelong

1:08:37

not quite , but 18 year pornography

1:08:39

addiction . It can be just something that

1:08:42

you've learned that's made a difference for you , and

1:08:44

we'd love to hear your story .

1:08:45

Absolutely All right , guys . Well , that's all

1:08:48

that we have for you today . Be

1:08:50

sure to tune into another episode of latterdaylights

1:08:52

next week , and we hope you guys have a

1:08:54

wonderful , wonderful week . We'll

1:08:57

see you later .