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2:04

Dave Fleming, I am

2:07

not proud of what I'm about to tell you,

2:09

but I am not a crier. I

2:13

grew up Roman Catholic, all boys

2:15

education. I walk around and

2:17

my tear ducts, my soul is in a

2:19

state of clench. Well, that

2:21

makes us the perfect couple for

2:23

this because I bet I'm in

2:25

the 99th percentile for adult male

2:27

criers across the world.

2:30

Wait, what's the sort of thing

2:32

that triggers you into shedding tears?

2:34

I have personal things that I've

2:36

gone through, but I think it's

2:38

trained me to... I'm

2:41

comfortable with crying. There was the Netflix...

2:44

It was recently, it was called One Day. Imagine

2:46

one selected day struck out of your life

2:50

and think how different this cause would've been. This

2:56

couple that they meet each other,

2:58

they're soulmates, they meet each other

3:00

in college, but they keep missing

3:02

each other. And it's one day

3:04

every year for their entire relationship

3:06

until they finally get

3:09

together and then tragedy

3:11

ensues. So

3:15

I just need you to know that

3:17

Dave Fleming really did not intend to

3:19

describe the NFL draft just now, even

3:21

though he did, by giving us this

3:24

plot summary of a Netflix series that

3:26

sounds terrible. I have not seen it,

3:29

admittedly. But I've

3:31

been thinking about a

3:33

different tragically desperate once

3:36

a year ritual where people dream

3:38

of settling down with a mysterious

3:40

college student who almost invariably breaks

3:42

their heart. And

3:45

the number one pick in the NFL

3:47

draft this year is going to be

3:49

this University of Southern California student named

3:51

Caleb Williams. If you watch tape

3:54

of Caleb Williams, what you will see pretty immediately

3:56

is that he can run and throw

3:58

like Patrick Mahomes. And... You

4:00

can also do that thing, that

4:02

quarterback too, where he brings plays

4:04

back from the dead. You

4:07

just have to get some more than one

4:09

second. Yeah, ain't that funny, out of time.

4:11

Certainly, man. Do we sing

4:13

on the move again? Are

4:15

you kidding me? Kayla Williams! And

4:18

the cut-in! That's a

4:21

rising run by the quarterback, finally playing

4:23

down at the 20-game! One

4:27

of the biggest problems with Kayla Williams, it

4:30

turns out, was also captured on

4:32

video. And this was right

4:34

after USC lost to the University of Washington last

4:37

fall. And it's actually the whole

4:39

reason I asked Dave Fleming, who is

4:41

a journalist that's covered two dozen

4:43

NFL drafts, and can consequently smell

4:45

front office bullsh** from miles away,

4:48

to help me report this story. Because

4:52

one of the biggest problems with

4:54

Kayla Williams is this clip of

4:57

Kayla Williams crying.

5:00

Kayla Williams is

5:04

jumping up and laying

5:07

in the arms of family there. Tough

5:10

night. Battled. That's

5:12

who it is. He knows the reality

5:14

of what a third loss means. That's

5:17

brilliant, as his two years will be in L.A.

5:19

It's not going to result in a FACT 12

5:22

championship. Yeah. Played.

5:25

Well, that led his team

5:28

in all he could. He came up a bit

5:30

short. The announcers

5:32

there, I would characterize their

5:34

tone as uncomfortably

5:37

polite. What

5:39

did you see there? Spell it out for us. When

5:42

he starts heaving, when

5:44

it's the full-body convulsion crying

5:46

in his mom's arms. He's

5:49

jumped into the stands after the game. Right.

5:52

Watching it now, I'm not proud of it. I

5:54

think you can be supportive of men showing

5:57

their emotions in any way they want. That

6:00

still left me feeling a little weird.

6:02

Yes. So the context here is it's November

6:04

4, 2023. This

6:07

is last season. USC has just

6:09

lost to Washington. 52

6:11

to 42. USC is now 7

6:13

and 3 for the season here. And

6:16

Kaelblin has jumped into the stands. And in

6:18

the first row, there are his parents. And

6:21

he is being, I

6:23

would say, just visually being cradled.

6:26

Right? I mean, that's not an exaggeration. No, no, no,

6:28

no. And his mom

6:30

is holding him. And

6:32

as his body is fully convulsing,

6:35

there's a piece of paper that

6:37

is very conveniently located where she

6:39

shields him like a privacy curtain.

6:41

Well, so she understands, too, that

6:43

this is sort of uncomfortable or

6:45

strange and is trying

6:48

to protect him by covering. That

6:50

was really telling, too, that the

6:52

mom understood how. Good field awareness.

6:54

Yeah. She had very good vision

6:56

there. And

6:58

then he just sort of let

7:00

go. It felt like an ativity

7:02

scene. An ativity scene come to

7:04

life in the stands of a college football game. I

7:07

got to say, I saw the dad. The dad was

7:09

kind of doing a Pablo when I would imagine as

7:11

a Pablo pat. It's like, OK, you're fine. 100%

7:14

not totally in tune with my real

7:16

emotion. But on top of that, I

7:18

reached out to a guy who's really

7:20

well connected, a former scout really well

7:23

connected across the NFL with GMs and

7:25

front and I

7:27

was blown away by his reaction. What did this

7:29

guy tell you that you can report? I

7:32

hated it. Hated it. He

7:34

would scare the out of me if

7:36

I was working for a team. Raw

7:39

emotion is great. But Caleb's thing, that

7:41

was ridiculous to me. That threw up

7:43

major red flags. You just lost a game

7:45

in the middle of your season. And

7:48

it was like your third loss in the Pac-12. And

7:51

you went hugging on mommy and crying

7:53

in mommy's arms. And it just seems

7:55

really freaking weak and nuts. And I

7:58

will tell you, he scares the. out

8:00

of a lot of NFL teams too. The

8:02

book on him is he's just kind of

8:04

a weird kid. One GM told

8:07

me, it's like if Prince played quarterback.

8:09

Look, I don't know him from Adam.

8:11

I do not know him, but to

8:13

me, that looked weak as really

8:16

fragile. And so this is

8:18

part of why I

8:21

wanted to do this episode is because

8:23

as much as I want to be

8:25

the enlightened person, I want to acknowledge

8:27

what seems different about this. It's

8:29

telling that like NFL scouts steal this,

8:32

random bloggers feel this, talking heads feel

8:34

this. We have never seen this.

8:36

It just looked like he was in a

8:38

fetal position while he was on the wall.

8:40

And all it took was

8:43

his mom putting her arm under his legs

8:45

and she's like literally holding her child like

8:47

a baby. Definitely one of the weakest moves,

8:50

if not the weakest move I've

8:52

ever seen by an athlete.

8:54

12 year old just struck out for the first time

8:56

in Little League type. But it's like, man, it

8:58

kind of keeps me from wanting to hang out with him. To

9:01

be honest. Okay, yeah, I'm not hanging out with

9:03

a dude who paints his nails. If you are

9:06

on a boat, wouldn't you want your captain, if

9:08

it's slowly going down to be the calmest, coolest

9:10

head on the boat? Caleb Williams, to

9:13

sum it up, he's soft, he's a

9:15

cry baby. And I implore any NFL

9:17

scouts to keep this pathetic scene in

9:20

mind with them causing their idea of

9:22

what a leader on an NFL

9:24

team looks like. Gronk

9:27

feels this for the record here. I can definitely

9:29

see this being a 50-50 split. I

9:31

was kind of split with myself as well. I was like,

9:33

all right, that's a little bit too much. Like why is

9:36

he crying? But then at the same time, I'm like, maybe

9:38

he's a mama boy. I don't normally

9:40

take my emotional cues from Rob Krakowski, but

9:42

in this case, I think a lot of

9:44

us felt the same way. It's like we're

9:46

not sure how to process this. Yeah, but

9:48

I feel like Gronk is probably on some

9:50

level taking his cues from the guy he

9:52

played for, right? The Hall of Famer, Bill

9:54

Belichick, the most emotionally withholding dad in

9:57

the history of America, I would argue, is

9:59

that. This organization

10:01

has had these certifications in the past. Yeah, but

10:03

we're on to Cincinnati. So

10:08

you think, you mentioned Tom's age in

10:10

the draft. We're on to Cincinnati.

10:12

So you think having a 37 year old. We're

10:15

on to Cincinnati. Well

10:18

I hate to sort of break it to

10:20

you but going all the way back to

10:22

a couple of Super Bowls and things that

10:24

I've witnessed in person and gone

10:27

down the rabbit hole on, Bill Belichick might

10:29

just turn out to be more like Caleb

10:31

Williams than any of us really want to

10:33

believe. So we have to get to that

10:35

investigation. We have to get to, I think,

10:37

a scientific understanding of what we're all doing

10:40

here as both the humans who cry and

10:42

the humans who observe the criers. And then also

10:44

we should talk to the football people. And they

10:47

can explain how much behind

10:49

the scenes actually can be made fun

10:51

of or not. Get your tissues ready

10:53

Pablo. The

11:18

simple act of crying has confused

11:20

scientists for centuries. I don't know

11:22

if you know this but humans

11:25

are the only creatures on earth

11:27

who will secrete tears because

11:29

we are in our feelings, because

11:31

we're sad, because we're happy, because we

11:34

just lost to the University of Washington. All

11:37

of that is unique to the human condition.

11:40

And no less an authority than Charles

11:42

Darwin, the father of evolutionary

11:44

theory, wrote a seminal

11:47

text in 1872 that was

11:49

titled The Emotional Expression of Man

11:51

and Animals. Darwin

11:53

could not think of a single,

11:56

Logical, evolutionary reason why

11:58

human faces. There's wouldn't

12:01

voluntarily league the salty

12:03

water at emotional moments.

12:05

Charles Darwin actually declared

12:07

weeping to be quote

12:09

purposeless and quotes. Which

12:13

makes him not totally unlike that

12:15

anonymous Nfl scouts that got interviewed

12:17

by Dave Fleming. I

12:20

want people not watching and you tube dressings network

12:23

to know that you made a mess of my

12:25

desk. You receive of papers here full of research

12:27

and scientific literature. This is edited down to a

12:29

to a cop could have gotten it all away

12:31

over there to. The. Basic questions I

12:33

needed help. With. Was. Why?

12:36

Do we cry at all? And so who

12:38

answered that question for you? We.

12:41

Went to a are a renowned

12:43

psychiatrists and professor at the University

12:45

of Pittsburgh name is Lauren Biles

12:47

Months I was looking through some

12:50

other articles and things you sent

12:52

me and just. This

12:54

fascinates me. Rights Digest to know,

12:57

and I'm. Not as football expert by the

12:59

way. so you might have this explains of things

13:01

to meet if if if if it's. She

13:03

has studied crying probably more than anyone else

13:05

in the United States. And it's. Kinda surprising

13:07

that given how and for in and

13:09

ubiquitous of phenomena that kind of like

13:11

pretty much everyone has cry and at

13:14

some point in their life and is

13:16

advising their that my research on it

13:18

it's fans are much better. In the

13:20

past as a senior says since got

13:22

into this area that they're still remarkably

13:24

see people around. The world that are

13:26

studying. I wonder if you get tired

13:28

of hearing of debt with Darwin's He

13:30

was so critical of it. Why do

13:32

you think that. Well, he wasn't

13:35

a just didn't know like he couldn't

13:37

find the reason I'm People Cry say.

13:39

He concluded that tears didn't serve any

13:41

purpose that it was a sword as

13:44

an incidental. Purposeless. sit six

13:46

he of tears I have a didn't

13:48

have any function or a sort of

13:50

an incidental things so I don't know

13:52

that he was critical. the just the

13:54

he didn't understand like what their the

13:56

functions where as at the time she

13:58

studied the cycle says he algae. Behind.

14:00

Cry. Evolutionary theory suggests that

14:02

the reason we volunteer was solicit help

14:04

from others I'm starting with and my

14:06

baby is them are listen to help

14:08

from our mother, other caregivers and then

14:11

as we get older and become an

14:13

eerie purpose to getting help. From.

14:15

Others than our social environment.

14:17

She. Told me it's based on four

14:19

million years of of evolution. That's

14:22

not great. For. Caleb Williams Jr.

14:24

Birds always. Use It's findings have like

14:26

four. Million years worth of babies, crying

14:28

brother, mom. Yeah, and the real

14:30

red flag to Nfl teams and

14:32

Nfl scouts was who he cried

14:34

to and who he cried with.

14:36

It's weird that he's crying to

14:38

his mom. It's weird that he's

14:40

crying after a meaningless loss. but

14:42

it's even. It disturbs us. See

14:44

if he's gonna cry, right? You

14:46

should be crying with your team,

14:49

right? We're your family now. exact.

14:51

We're your football family. That's what's

14:53

the matter the most in. The.

14:55

Context of this game and it's immediately

14:57

than they flipped that to. What's wrong

14:59

with this guy? that he didn't cry

15:01

in his ah line mins arms. Why

15:03

did he go fetal position with his

15:06

mommy instead of his his teammates? It's

15:08

about who you look to for help.

15:10

Did you watch the Caleb Williams clip?

15:12

Yeah, yeah, I did look at that one

15:14

sister for. And. In that one

15:16

seemed a bit more intense than a

15:19

with usually see and football as easily

15:21

as it's more like. They is he a Some

15:23

tears running down there. Says you know I think

15:25

I could see why there might have been

15:27

more backlash there because it did seem you

15:29

know more I like childlike and that way

15:31

and not something the we typically see like

15:34

It did seem like he lost more control

15:36

than and we typically see some people might

15:38

turn to their teammates on their crime and

15:40

ala he turns his family. But I have

15:42

seen others were there sort of like day

15:44

hugs from their teammates or their coats and

15:46

it results in Savannah facilitate that bond in.

15:49

And I think maybe for the first time

15:51

in my entire career on the scouts lined

15:53

up with the science. But.

15:57

In terms of like. This. Is

15:59

really happened. The like biologically inside of

16:01

Caleb Williams? What are we even

16:03

able to say about that? like

16:05

why is he doing his wife

16:07

any control himself? In other words,

16:10

this really. this is the fascinating

16:12

pay off for why we went

16:14

down this rabbit hole because the

16:16

science of crying is telling us

16:18

exactly the opposite what the the

16:20

and a full front offices are.

16:22

There is some evidence that preying on when

16:25

it first the peak right before a crime

16:27

starts the sort of like where your has

16:29

the most physiological arousal like the most of

16:32

the call like a fight or flight response

16:34

or sympathetic activity on. Your heart like

16:36

beating faster. your breathing faster, that sort.

16:38

Of thing and then crane sort of

16:40

marks that transition to more parasympathetic activity

16:43

kind of the rest and digest the

16:45

some it's are commonly known as kind

16:47

of that marco going back to homeostasis.

16:50

Sued. The science backs of tale

16:52

of On this it's incredible. It

16:55

is a signal from our body

16:57

that it's like to have cared

16:59

so much about this basically random

17:01

regular season game and that his

17:04

body, ah it is short circuited

17:06

on. My. Mean, how do you if

17:08

you're scouts and this this book is what

17:10

we hear all the time about. We want

17:13

guys who love the idea that dog injury

17:15

responses lose. Breeds and all of a sudden

17:17

now they're dinging. Him or something.

17:20

That's a science, actually. Says is

17:22

the biggest proof that you hire as

17:24

much as wants you to welcome to

17:26

Nfl Scouting for the fifth of. Basically

17:29

is there any scenario where that kind

17:31

of a reaction that kind of crying.

17:34

Is. A sign of like weakness

17:36

or instability or something that like

17:38

them ah and evaluate or should

17:41

be worried about. I. Think

17:43

we don't really really worried if it is impacting

17:45

their function in like neediest he like stopped in

17:47

the know the say it went to go cry

17:49

and and and this the play than me be

17:51

pretty concerned they give it's impacting. Your

17:53

workers, those relationships and.

17:56

that's how evaluate any mental health disorder

17:58

but if it's not getting the way

18:00

of anything, we wouldn't necessarily be concerned about

18:02

it. And he

18:04

clearly had really intense feelings in that moment.

18:06

If someone were to say maybe their child

18:09

died or they're in a war zone looking

18:11

on some horrible scenes

18:13

of destruction, we would never judge someone

18:15

to cry like that in that scenario. But

18:17

it was a football game, so maybe people

18:20

might have seen it as a bit of a stream reaction.

18:23

Yeah, I find it interesting, right, that fans

18:25

are the fans who trash

18:28

their TV and throw it out the window are

18:31

like, oh, Caleb Williams lost control over the moment. Did

18:33

people really do that? I'd

18:36

be more concerned about the people who threw their TVs

18:38

out of the window than him crying,

18:40

if I were to give my

18:42

professional opinion. I do now

18:45

just want to send her about, I don't

18:47

know, two dozen videos of like, Cowboys fans.

18:50

Oh, and by the way, we've already reserved a

18:52

spot in her crying lab for you later. Amazing.

18:55

But the person I actually want to put into that

18:57

crying lab, though, is the person you mentioned before, like

19:00

Bill Belichick, right? I'm now imagining

19:03

the human brain, I'm imagining crying

19:05

as the point of peak intensity

19:07

that says to everybody, look

19:10

how much I care about this so much

19:12

so that my body is making me quit.

19:14

But I also can't imagine Bill Belichick

19:18

actually crying, dude. So

19:21

in February of 2008, I'm

19:24

at the Super Bowl, where the Patriots, they're

19:26

18 and oh, they blow

19:28

their chance at literally immortality. Yeah, to

19:30

the Giants the first time. Ready,

19:36

steps up, throws,

19:39

downfield, broken up.

19:43

Two seconds left as the Giants

19:45

take over. In

19:49

the locker room afterwards, I'm at that

19:51

game, I'm in the locker room, and

19:53

the weight of what they had just sort

19:56

of lost out on hits

19:58

everybody. Including our

20:01

man Bill Belichick. Wait, okay. So what did

20:03

you see Flem? Well, that's a

20:05

good question because Because

20:08

I you know all the things the research that

20:10

we stirred up the all the rabbit holes that

20:12

you sent me down Made me remember being in

20:15

that locker room And so I'm getting feedback from

20:17

everyone who was in that room that it was

20:19

like Belichick was choked up Belichick

20:21

was close to tears Belichick

20:24

was and it's important for what we're doing

20:26

our study on Caleb We need to know

20:29

if the Darth Vader of the NFL cried

20:31

then it's okay for everybody to cry if

20:33

his comp is Bill Belichick right on

20:35

some level. Yeah, this is news we

20:37

could use and so I reached out

20:39

to a really good friend of mine

20:42

Seth Wicker sham who is probably one

20:44

of the foremost experts and has studied

20:46

the book right on the Patriot Yeah

20:48

knows and has spoken to probably more

20:50

than anyone and we were at that

20:52

game together We were in the locker

20:54

room together and then basically after debating

20:56

this back and forth what we agreed

20:58

upon was yeah What's what's the threshold

21:01

you can confirm? moisture

21:03

around the eyes As

21:07

we could go so the

21:09

question of is moisture tears

21:12

Sometimes on this show we put a lot of work

21:15

into stupid things. We take stupid things very seriously Yes,

21:17

I don't know people understand how much leg we put

21:19

into just getting the ability to say with confidence There

21:22

was moisture because we asked I mean how many people did

21:24

you talk to? Oh Dozens

21:26

so I've returned from this particular rabbit

21:28

hole and other people just got any

21:31

names Yes, I have my

21:33

homework And

21:35

I made a list and I'm sure I probably left some

21:37

people off But I mean the list of people that we

21:40

reached out Basically with the question have

21:42

you ever seen Bill Belichick cry? I mean it

21:44

got to that point And the

21:46

first person that I asked that to

21:48

was Roosevelt Colvin who was a linebacker

21:51

Old-school linebacker on the Patriots on that

21:53

team. Yes, and he responded something like

21:55

lol Never seen Bill cry

21:58

and that is the response we basically got from

22:00

everybody. I'll just go down the list,

22:02

right? We've got Seth, we've got Chad

22:05

Finn who is a reporter in Boston,

22:07

we've got Stacey James, the long-time PR

22:09

VP at the Patriot. And what did

22:11

the PR person say? The official mouthpiece

22:13

of Belichick once upon a time? This

22:15

is so funny, right? Because there's a

22:17

taboo element to crying, right? Especially in

22:19

football. But he got right back to

22:22

me and was like, no,

22:24

Bill is, Bill's never seen Bill cry.

22:27

Even when Bill told the team that his

22:29

father had died, the players cried

22:31

and the players got emotional,

22:33

but Bill didn't. Classic, classic

22:35

Belichick. Yeah. I reached out

22:37

to a long-time associate and

22:39

close friend of Bill Belichick's

22:41

who confirmed immediately never seen

22:43

Bill cry. I will

22:46

also point out another reporter

22:48

replied, are you kidding me? Sociopaths

22:51

don't cry. Well, it got to the point where I had

22:53

to DM. I was like, all right, Teddy

22:58

Brouski, did you ever see Belichick

23:00

cry? And he said, can't say I

23:02

recall B.B. shedding tears over the game,

23:05

period. Like immediately, like, no. Yeah.

23:08

So the closest we

23:10

got was moisture around the eyes.

23:13

I also talked to Ian O'Connor, who wrote

23:15

500 pages. Another book.

23:18

Right. On Belichick. You know, I searched

23:20

that book. There are four mentions of

23:22

the word tears in those 500 pages.

23:25

And Ian O'Connor and Tom

23:27

Curran, they both sent me

23:30

further down this stupid rabbit hole,

23:32

Pablo. This is my life now.

23:35

By recommending, they said, oh, check out

23:38

the 30 for 30 called two

23:40

bills. Yeah, this is the Bill Parcells,

23:42

Bill Belichick doc they made. Right. And

23:44

it's basically a scene of him in

23:46

the depths of old

23:49

Giants Stadium, cinder block

23:51

offices where he used to grind through

23:53

tape when he was a nobody with

23:55

the Giants. You think about that and

23:57

who you were back then. You

24:00

have a different perspective on it? Yeah.

24:02

20 years later. Do

24:09

it! I probably wouldn't have thought it would turn out like

24:11

this. But I'd

24:13

be standing here, you know, like this. You

24:20

know, I was just trying to... Do

24:24

it. ...establish my coaching career. Be

24:29

a good coach. And

24:33

some games. And,

24:36

um... Yeah, we've got a lot

24:38

of them here. Boys. This

24:41

is a great... Is this history? This

24:43

is a great organization. Do it! Come

24:46

on! Yeah. It's hard not

24:48

to get choked up about it. What, here, do it! Damn,

24:50

I spent a lot of hours in that room. Don't unclench!

24:53

Cry, you b******ers! Unclench the fist around your arms! I already ran and

24:55

ride the bike. Go through three

24:58

or four games and the next team we were gonna play. Hot

25:05

hours here. Aww,

25:07

b******! I

25:10

had never seen that before until just now.

25:14

If you just listen to it, you listen

25:16

to his breathing, he gets... He's

25:18

a choked up at this and there

25:20

is a linguistic tell. Yeah,

25:23

we even got the sort of the

25:25

hopscotchy, the... It was

25:27

like... So, I don't... I

25:31

don't know what is the physiological rules

25:33

that constitute crying. We came as close

25:36

as humanly possible right now. Yes, some

25:38

constipated ducks. Right. In this way,

25:40

I kind of relate to Belichick, honestly. Like,

25:42

watching him fight it. Like, watching

25:44

him trying to just, like,

25:47

not get pinned by his parasympathetic

25:49

nervous system. I know,

25:51

it wasn't interesting to the... He

25:53

was subconsciously rubbing his own neck.

25:55

Then he turned away, like, I don't want to do

25:57

this. He tried to walk away. And I think the

25:59

other... The other thing that's really important that ties into

26:01

what we've been talking about, he's

26:04

almost broke down in tears. He's

26:06

talking about going over grinding through

26:09

game film. Okay,

26:11

but that matches what he

26:14

loves and what he intensely

26:16

and physically loves about the

26:18

game was that kind of shit. So

26:34

it's very clear to me that maybe the

26:36

only thing that's more uncomfortable than watching someone

26:39

crying his mommy's arms is watching Bill Belichick

26:41

try not to cry while thinking about grinding

26:43

film for Bill Parcells and it revives me

26:45

given the work we put into just getting

26:47

to that, that shred of moisture which may

26:50

confirm the moisture that you recall seeing that

26:52

we need to talk to somebody who is

26:54

less in their head about this because

26:57

there are players I am told who

27:00

are willing to

27:02

actually speak freely on the record and

27:05

I have a feeling

27:07

they're probably less awkward. But I got the trigger

27:09

response of like, I want to go give

27:12

Bill Belichick a hug. It did

27:14

feel like watching your dad cry

27:16

his hardest to not cry in

27:18

front of you. Yes, I genuinely

27:20

felt sad for him in that

27:22

situation watching that where it was like, oh man,

27:25

just have a good cry. Which

27:27

gets to the question of like, okay, he's

27:29

the boss. Okay, that

27:32

is the guy who sets the emotional temperature

27:34

for the NFL at large when it comes

27:36

to how players are supposed to act. And

27:39

yet, as somebody who's covered the

27:41

league forever, there is an interesting paradox, right?

27:44

I have been telling people for years

27:46

that there is a ton of crying

27:49

in the NFL, 10 times more

27:52

than anybody would ever imagine.

27:55

Somebody at the Super Bowl, the Super Bowl locker

27:58

rooms at the Super Bowl after the game. It

28:00

is like a group reviewing of

28:02

the The movie The Notebook. Everybody's

28:05

ball and people are frightened because are

28:07

happy It's people, are crying because are

28:09

savvy bar crime because it's over. Jumping

28:11

into each other's arms is hides in

28:13

plain sight. So it as gets a

28:15

little bit about what we don't want

28:18

to see and yet it's not easy

28:20

to get someone to be like yup,

28:22

bald continuously. Even the attempts to just

28:24

confirms stupid little details as. We've.

28:26

Been met by brick walls all over the

28:29

blaze. It is not. An easy for guys

28:31

even really reflect. On necessarily And

28:33

yet I found someone. Ah,

28:35

and of course this person

28:37

was down. To. Actually

28:39

give us the truth Done as Dominic I

28:41

somebody back on of the show because of

28:44

course I could present it as a matter

28:46

of time Before I say you tell me

28:48

about what it was like to do the

28:50

thing that I never did tell me about

28:52

the fluids you did it with a bag

28:54

you previous around but I have read of

28:57

the year. Called up

28:59

Dominic phosphorus. To. Give us

29:01

a sense of like okay, Who.

29:03

Are the people that you have

29:05

seen personally cry. And what

29:07

does that say about. Who. Does

29:10

the most cry in the

29:12

hardest most masculine of sports.

29:14

Of them far enough away that your

29:16

limitations. Okay to name some of these

29:18

names. These are the names that you

29:20

want to hear. The people who cried.

29:23

Who. I saw crying and I saw

29:25

most broken up. Over.

29:28

Wins. And losses. Were.

29:30

The Hall of Famers does superstars the

29:33

all time greats and it wasn't even

29:35

crack growing up. The losses. I

29:38

remember a Thursday night game when I

29:40

asked I signed my contract and I'm

29:42

in a Baltimore. We went to Cleveland

29:45

Panthers and I get the Browns a

29:47

terrible A seemingly always are terrible. Were

29:49

standing in a tunnel about so got

29:51

on the field or look over and

29:54

I see Ray Lewis with his eyes

29:56

full of tears. And. Tear.

29:59

start flowing down his face. I've

30:01

always looked at this particular moment.

30:03

It like stands out to me

30:05

because he'd already won a

30:08

Super Bowl. He'd already established himself as

30:10

like this is an early career Ray

30:12

Lewis. He'd already won a Super Bowl.

30:14

He'd already established himself as probably the best linebacker of all

30:16

time. And this

30:18

like mundane ass

30:21

game for me,

30:23

for me, for me, this

30:25

is a mundane ass game. So

30:27

for him, like this

30:30

has he was

30:32

so intense that

30:34

he was in tears. He

30:36

had worked himself up

30:38

to a point that

30:41

he was crying before we

30:43

left the tunnel a half

30:45

empty Cleveland Browns guarantee you

30:47

win. And

30:50

I just remember thinking

30:52

that obviously, physically we're

30:54

different. But this is also

30:56

why we're different. Like I can't

30:59

get there emotionally. And

31:01

I've seen that for other great

31:03

players and Ed was also somebody

31:05

who was like incredibly emotional a

31:07

lot of time. Ed Reed. Yeah.

31:09

Arguably the greatest at his position. No

31:11

argument. He is like, I mean, Bill

31:14

Belichick would agree. He is not an

31:16

argument. These are two greatest at their

31:18

position. And they were so emotionally invested.

31:21

I think Terrell subs fits in this

31:23

category also of someone who would

31:26

have more aggressive emotional swings

31:29

based on the outcomes of

31:31

games. And I think this had something to do with how

31:33

good they were. Me and all the

31:36

rest of the mediocre football players. No

31:38

crying. We were surprised. The

31:41

only I never cried

31:43

as a result of a game in

31:45

NFL. I've given up game winning touchdowns.

31:47

I've made incredible game winning plays. None

31:50

of them have ever moved me to

31:52

tears. But you know what would have

31:54

made me cry if I

31:56

tore up my knee the year before my

31:59

contract. I'd have cried. cried my eyes

32:01

out then because that was about me.

32:04

It's direct proof of the theories that

32:06

we're working off of, which is it

32:09

was everything to them. And

32:11

the tears are proof of that. Because

32:14

you literally can't cry. Your body

32:16

cannot cry unless you are pushed

32:18

to the brink emotionally and physically.

32:21

That's the only thing that can make

32:23

you cross the bridge to parasympathetic response.

32:26

So it's Ray Lewis is like, I

32:28

mean, again, can you have

32:30

a better example of the science that we're talking

32:32

about? One in six doesn't define who you are.

32:35

What defines who you are is what you do when

32:37

you're one in six. What

32:39

the man you will fight for, just

32:41

everything you got to do, not because of

32:43

the scoreboard, but because

32:45

when this thing ends, you have a brother to

32:47

call for life. Little did you

32:50

get everything you had. That's

32:52

why you play as a race. That's why

32:54

you fight as a race. What was fascinating

32:56

to me was Dominique sort of acknowledging, I

33:00

can't cry. I'm not gonna cry because it

33:02

doesn't mean the same thing to me as

33:04

it meant to Ray. So this gets to

33:06

a theory that Dominique presents us because Dominique

33:08

is also very self-aware, right? And he's saying,

33:10

look, yeah, I played seven years in the

33:13

NFL as a cornerback. Yes, I was in

33:15

all these locker rooms organizing them as a

33:17

president of their union. I know the landscape

33:19

of the league, all of that is so.

33:21

But also he has a theory about who

33:23

cries the most and who doesn't. And so

33:25

he continues to sort of like lie on

33:28

the therapy couch for us. My theory

33:30

on the reason why these like

33:32

all-time greats and super important, significant

33:35

players are the ones that are

33:37

crying is because they've

33:39

never been confronted with that

33:42

business side of football. They

33:45

still have that childlike pop

33:48

Warner feeling about a family

33:50

because they got, Dre got

33:52

drafted in the first round and

33:54

was great from the time. And

33:57

the team always wanted to keep them. And

33:59

they... He never drafted anybody over him

34:02

and he never felt

34:04

like it was in jeopardy. So I feel like,

34:06

and this is my theory is

34:08

same thing for quarterbacks is I feel

34:10

like their connection to the game and

34:12

to the team and to the passion

34:14

of it, it has never

34:16

been eroded by the

34:19

ugliness of the experience of

34:21

the mediocre guy. They

34:24

still feel that way and I jealous

34:27

of them for a number of reasons, but that's

34:30

one of them. It connects

34:32

exactly to the research that we've done,

34:34

which is their teammates and

34:36

everything. The sport of football remains

34:39

one big family for them. And

34:41

so of course they'd be more likely

34:43

to cry because they're around family. And

34:46

from an evolutionary standpoint, they're more comfortable. If

34:48

they're going to cry and signal for help,

34:50

you do it in front of people who

34:52

care about you enough to respond. And then

34:55

somebody who understands the business of the game.

34:57

If it was a realist and or a

34:59

cynic. Right. Those people aren't

35:01

your family members. Your family are your

35:03

family members. Obviously, you can look at

35:05

any of the great players lives and

35:07

things off the field and

35:10

on the field have been difficult for them

35:12

in many ways. But I

35:14

do think that the way

35:16

that I had to confront my

35:19

career mortality a number of

35:21

times earlier it it like

35:23

shrinks whatever

35:26

space I have in my heart for

35:28

that genuine,

35:30

beautiful Hollywood

35:32

style. Right Friday night.

35:35

Friday night lights level. Yeah.

35:38

Sobbing. Yeah. That

35:40

that I miss it. I loved it.

35:42

It was great. I remember crying at my

35:44

last high school football game because it did

35:46

feel like those guys me and those guys.

35:49

It was something special. It felt like in

35:51

those moments nothing mattered more. And I remember

35:54

like looking back on it. I

35:56

fractured my elbow senior year and. I

36:00

was playing. It was the dumbest ever. I

36:02

was the best player in

36:04

the state maybe, or at least on the team

36:07

in the county. We had nothing to play for.

36:09

We weren't going to win

36:11

the championship, but these

36:13

are my guys. This matters.

36:16

Had I been confronted with the same choice

36:19

in later years or

36:21

in college or in NFL, it'd

36:24

be less likely to do it. And it

36:27

would be more based on how is this

36:29

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36:31

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