0:00

Welcome to Pablo Torre Finds Out. I am

0:02

Pablo Torre, and today we're gonna find out what

0:04

this sound is. The only thing that makes

0:07

sense for what's going on in this country is

0:09

that demons are influencing people, allowing

0:12

their bodies to be possessed to

0:14

run satanic, uh, uh,

0:17

agendas.

0:18

Right after this ad.

0:21

You're listening to DraftKings

0:24

Network.

0:34

So,

0:38

Cortez, I want people to understand that I walk

0:40

into the office proud to

0:42

host Pablo Torre Finds Out because we've built

0:44

a newsroom. A newsroom? Yes. A

0:47

newsroom. Do you understand a newsroom

0:49

to me has to have, like, a piece of print

0:52

newspaper and, like, ink on your fingers

0:54

and stuff like that? That's not a newsroom. There

0:56

is residue on our fingers, not ink,

0:59

admittedly.

1:00

Go wash your hands. The

1:03

point I'm trying to make is that I walk into

1:05

this newsroom trying to figure out every day,

1:07

like, what are we supposed to f***ing

1:09

cover? And I just want to ask you,

1:12

for the sake of rigor, of journalistic

1:15

introspection, what do you think

1:17

the biggest story, Cortez, is

1:20

in sports right now? To me, the

1:22

biggest story is Deion Sanders' double overtime

1:25

win, obviously. Prime time.

1:28

That's a good impression of an impression. Of

1:30

an— yeah, exactly. Of an impression.

1:33

Yeah. And right up there with Deion, arguably even ahead

1:35

of Deion, to me, personally, since you asked me, is

1:37

Aaron Rodgers telling Pat McAfee that

1:40

how he plans to heal his injury is to

1:42

listen to dolphins having sex with each other. And

1:44

that would help him with the mating process. I

1:47

wish that this was something that we had conceived

1:49

as, like, a joke, but no, that's— yeah,

1:52

that's— I'm healed. That

1:57

is what the New York Gets are counting on.

1:58

Fully torn ACL. Dolphin

2:00

sex right right all of these are the stories

2:02

we might consider sure but for

2:05

me If you listen to

2:07

the news right now, okay actual Alleged

2:11

journalistic outlets if you listen to

2:13

the people running for president The

2:16

biggest story in sports most urgent

2:18

story most pressing thing They want to

2:20

talk about that to do with sports in any way is

2:23

not Dion or Mike McDaniel

2:25

or Aaron Rodgers is Labito

2:29

it's not any of that It's

2:31

this

2:32

the idea that we have Biological

2:34

boys playing in girls sports. It is the

2:36

women's issue of our time. I'd say it's

2:38

more It's no more than just cheating. It's dangerous

2:41

and it's insane Transgenderism is a lie.

2:43

You don't get to choose your own gender the vast

2:45

majority of Americans Actually agree

2:47

with that point that your gender is assigned at birth.

2:49

That's the way that God made

2:50

you take that alone You pay it back

2:53

you commit a violent crime you go

2:55

to jail And if God made you a man

2:58

you play sports against men

3:01

Some women are being badly injured

3:03

by the wind burn that's caused

3:05

by the man going so much faster. The wind

3:08

is blowing

3:10

There are so many more clips like that, but

3:12

I also want to say right up top here I Get

3:16

why some people listening are already just exhausted

3:19

by by this episode and by

3:21

the fact that I'm trying to I'm trying to Trojan

3:24

Horse trans athletes into this

3:26

show and I say that because These

3:29

clips are everywhere Right. I

3:31

mean this is trans athletes

3:33

are a front in this forever culture

3:36

war that is endless and People

3:39

all the time on Twitter on on

3:41

cable news at home Maybe

3:43

at your awkward Thanksgiving dinner people

3:46

are arguing complaining about both

3:48

the merits of the arguments for and against

3:50

but also just We all

3:52

hate each other because people seem dug

3:55

in and they refuse to admit some stuff that

3:58

Yeah, that seems to be Settled science.

4:01

I mean when I you know as a longtime

4:04

like Levitar show listener What I think about

4:06

when I hear you say all that is like the reaction

4:08

on that show anytime Levitar

4:10

talks about other You know they had a transgender

4:12

politician on not that long ago Yes, Zoe

4:14

Zephyr very benign what they said and

4:17

that the reaction was poisonous and infuriating

4:19

and so I just want to be very open here

4:23

Extremely open here as a quote-unquote

4:25

liberal Because there

4:27

is one Extremely broadly

4:30

persuasive argument that all

4:32

of these anti-trans talking

4:34

heads legislators Are

4:36

making against trans women against trans

4:39

girls of course in specific because

4:41

the most famous trans

4:43

woman Right now Cortez

4:46

especially even put it in sports most

4:48

famous trans female athlete right

4:51

now is who I mean in sports There's no

4:53

doubt Leah Thomas, you know that the famous trans

4:55

female swimmer From pen very

4:57

yeah. Yeah, yes really good at swimming,

5:00

which is the problem right the problem is

5:02

that to the Thomas Yes me a Thomas is

5:04

a case study this cudgel that people are beating

5:06

this issue over the head with because the argument

5:08

goes the Persuasive argument goes

5:11

look at how all of these trans

5:13

women all of these trans girls have these undeniable

5:17

scientifically validated physical

5:19

advantages over quote-unquote Biological

5:22

women which is what they call them, right? So

5:25

these trans girls categorically the argument

5:27

goes are better and stronger

5:29

and faster than Biological

5:31

girls at sports. And so what

5:33

does this mean? It means that your daughters

5:36

America's daughters, okay They're

5:38

all losing scholarships and opportunities

5:41

and trophies to these trans girls

5:43

who have this enormous unfair Competitive

5:45

advantage and it's the logic. It's

5:48

the very logic behind why the US House

5:50

of Representatives in April Pass

5:53

a federal bill that mirrors

5:56

this legislation that has now been successfully passed

5:58

by 23 states All

6:00

of which are banning trans girls from playing

6:03

girls sports. 23's a lot. Yes,

6:05

about half of the country, right? And even more

6:07

states, like Ohio, for

6:10

instance, are trying to enact anti-trans

6:12

bills as we speak in June. In

6:15

June, Ohio's House of Representatives approved

6:17

a bill that would ban trans girls

6:20

from playing in girls sports as early as

6:22

kindergarten. Kindergarten? Banning

6:25

trans girls as young as kindergarten

6:27

through college. But there

6:29

is one part of the story that I think I want to establish

6:32

with you. Because the part

6:34

that people don't like to talk about in

6:36

all of these arguments is just how

6:39

many trans people in general

6:41

there actually are in America,

6:44

right? Because the consistent message here is that this threat

6:46

is everywhere. It's pervasive. It's

6:48

enormous. And so one study

6:51

to that point, one study found that the average American

6:53

now believes that 21% of

6:56

American adults identify as trans. 21% of

6:59

American adults are trans people is what

7:02

the average American presumes.

7:04

Do you know,

7:05

Cortez, what the real percentage is? I mean, given

7:07

polling errors and stuff, maybe half that, 10%, something

7:10

like that? OK.

7:13

0.5%, according to UCLA's Williams Institute.

7:16

The actual answer is 0.5% of American

7:18

adults are trans. And

7:21

that's a fraction, a fraction of 1%. And

7:24

so I bring this up just to say that the

7:26

number of trans kids, the

7:28

number of trans girls actually playing

7:31

sports in America, that

7:33

number of kids who are allegedly taking

7:36

away scholarships and opportunities and trophies, that

7:38

number is obviously even tinier than that.

7:41

And so there was one Associated Press story in 2021 that

7:43

I cannot stop thinking about because it surveyed

7:46

two dozen lawmakers that were sponsoring

7:48

these bills. And they found that in almost every

7:50

case, in almost every case what

7:53

the reporting said verbatim, they could not

7:55

cite a single trans female

7:57

athlete in real life, in their own state or

7:59

region, whatever. they represented that had caused

8:01

the problem they were allegedly solving.

8:04

That's insane. So, so in

8:06

one state in particular, I want to focus again on Ohio

8:09

here. In Ohio,

8:11

there was exactly one trans

8:14

girl playing varsity sports at the time that they tried

8:16

to pass these anti-trans bills.

8:19

And this trans girl was

8:21

a catcher on her high school softball team named

8:24

Ember Zelsch. Now Leah

8:27

Thomas I had heard of, Ember

8:29

Zelsch I had never ever

8:32

heard of. Have you? No, but that's a name I'm

8:34

sure not to forget because it's an awesome name. It

8:36

is pretty badass. Exactly. Yes.

8:39

Yes. So the truth behind Ember Zelsch, the

8:41

name, the person, what's behind there? That

8:44

is why I decided to go on a scouting

8:46

trip to Northeast Ohio because

8:49

I wanted to find Ember Zelsch, the trans

8:51

girl who is too good at softball,

8:54

right? So good in fact at softball

8:56

that the state of Ohio tried to ban

8:58

her from doing it, from playing

9:01

this sport. And I needed

9:03

to find out how good Ember

9:05

Zelsch actually is.

9:29

I've been told that you're amazing

9:31

at

9:32

softball, at all sports really. I

9:34

mean truly incredible. I mean just look

9:37

at all my trophies around here.

9:40

I want to be clear about what is around here because

9:44

as much as cable news is telling me that you're one

9:46

of the great softball players of all time, the

9:49

only thing that's even metal here is

9:51

the foil that's all over

9:54

your bed and I don't

9:56

know why there's foil on your bed. My

9:58

cats have...

12:02

This is not the room of the

12:05

person I was promised. I thought

12:07

that this would be a little different.

12:14

The back of your softball card. What

12:17

kind of stats are on the back of that, would you say?

12:20

And by the way, that sound is Ember Spritzing, the

12:22

interior of the get-go career.

12:24

Sorry, I forgot about the microphones. Yeah,

12:29

just giving him some water. He's not very smart,

12:31

so I need to spray his entire

12:34

enclosure. I think Marvel is smart.

12:38

I'm just saying that. You haven't seen him trying

12:40

to eat. I feed

12:42

him with a spoon. So what you're telling

12:44

me is that the person at the center of

12:47

Ohio's legislation banning

12:50

trans girls from playing sports because they're

12:52

too dominant. Spends most of her time

12:54

feeding a gecko.

12:57

I mean, that's probably what should be on the back of

12:59

my softball. Feeds soup

13:01

to gecko with spoons.

13:08

And so I decided to fact check all of this

13:10

with Ember's mom, Minna

13:12

Zelsch, who is

13:16

blunt. How

13:18

would you describe Ember's athletic

13:22

prowess?

13:25

There really isn't much. How

13:28

about any home runs?

13:29

She's never had

13:32

a home run in her life. So,

13:36

um, growing

13:38

up, I was a weird

13:41

kid. What were you into?

13:43

Uh, animals. And

13:47

in particular, I really,

13:50

really liked lizards and snakes.

13:52

What is really, really

13:54

liking lizards and snakes and tail? I

13:57

think we had possibly 32. animals

14:01

at the peak.

14:02

That's, Ember, that is

14:04

so many more f***ing animals than I would have

14:06

guessed when you said, I really like lizards.

14:09

Like the greatest baseball players of all time,

14:12

you had 32 animals

14:14

and had a love of reptiles and snakes. Yes,

14:17

and I did

14:20

shows with them. I did educational shows

14:24

as a job. I

14:26

started at 10 years old in

14:29

my best friend's garage

14:31

because it was first birthday,

14:33

and I would just teach people

14:35

about these animals and let them hold them.

14:38

So you were having like a

14:40

reptile show. Where

14:44

are the reptiles right now? Right below us.

14:47

In the basement? Yes. Do you

14:49

want me to go get one? I can totally

14:52

go get one for you right now. Let's

14:55

do that? I'll be right back.

15:03

Holy s***. All right.

15:06

So these- So I want to describe

15:09

for the people who are just listening to this and not watching

15:11

on our YouTube channel what you've brought

15:13

me.

15:13

Yeah,

15:17

so these are leopard

15:19

boas. They are a

15:22

dwarf species with

15:24

a

15:25

color mutation. So they only

15:27

top out about six feet. Only?

15:30

Yeah, well,

15:32

I mean, if they weren't a dwarf species,

15:34

they could get up to 15 feet.

15:36

What's the name of this one that's crawling at your microphone?

15:39

Yeah, that's Violet. My daughter's

15:41

name is Violet. Oh really? Yeah. Yeah,

15:44

that's Violet. I'm never gonna think

15:46

of my daughter's name in the same way ever. She

15:50

is

15:52

actually really sweet. If you

15:54

want, you can hold her. I don't know about that. That's

15:56

fine. Yeah. So-

16:00

And the other one this one's

16:03

k-pox. Um, he's

16:06

actually shedding right now So

16:11

explain the symbolism here Because

16:15

because the snakes that you have

16:17

wrapped around you as you're talking here They

16:21

are not as scary. Yeah as

16:24

I had presumed. Yeah when you said

16:26

I'm gonna go get these two Snakes,

16:29

yeah Yeah,

16:32

so that's part of why

16:34

I love them so much is because

16:37

they are misunderstood

16:40

they

16:41

are People expect them to

16:44

be Scary or particularly

16:46

dangerous. These things are really

16:48

only dangerous to my birds

16:50

and my cats Or

16:53

like an infant but right

16:56

there's no infants here Where

16:58

are you going? I think he's trying to adjust

17:00

the lighting. What's not

17:03

do that?

17:09

Give me your Dungeons and Dragons credentials.

17:11

I'm currently in a D&D campaign

17:13

with my little brother at

17:16

church I've made

17:19

like at least four different characters

17:21

not including the ones that I've helped people

17:23

make and then I've Been involved

17:26

with a D&D club at

17:28

my school

17:30

So total jock energy give

17:32

me your other nerd credentials other

17:34

nerd I mean not that I'm in doubt

17:37

at this point. Oh, I'm on account of

17:40

the snake handling I Really

17:43

love mythology. Yeah, you have a favorite myth

17:46

maybe Icarus just cuz I relate

17:48

Have you ever flown too close to the Sun?

17:52

Well, I guess you could consider

17:54

just wanting to play sports that

17:57

that might have

17:58

that might have done it

17:59

just because

18:02

all the political stuff that is happening.

18:06

They're trying to melt some wings.

18:08

Yeah. Ember,

18:15

when did you come out as trans?

18:17

The first time I came out as trans, it

18:20

was in fifth grade. I told

18:23

a friend of mine at the time, I

18:26

think I'm a girl. I didn't have any

18:28

other words to explain what I was

18:30

feeling, but

18:34

she told me, you'll always be

18:36

boy to me. And

18:39

that ended up pushing

18:41

me in the closet for two more years. And

18:45

I came out to my family as trans halfway

18:48

through seventh grade.

18:50

As a parent, I don't think it's the kind of thing you ever

18:52

forget.

18:54

She just said, I think

18:56

I'm transgender.

18:58

And I just remember kind of

19:01

going quiet and be like,

19:03

okay.

19:05

And it was extremely difficult. My

19:08

husband and I both spent many times

19:11

just kind of looking at each other with this

19:14

blank stare of what do we do? What

19:17

happens now? And yeah,

19:20

we hugged her, we love you, we said. And

19:24

then going to bed at night and

19:26

just crying yourself to sleep, because not because

19:28

you didn't want a trans kid, but

19:31

because we knew how much harder it would make her life.

19:35

When did it occur to you that you now

19:38

out as a trans girl needed

19:41

to play these games again? That

19:43

you needed to play sports? I wanted to start

19:46

playing in eighth grade

19:49

and it wasn't

19:52

an option because I had already

19:54

started to go through puberty. And

19:58

there was...

20:01

policies in place through OHSAA. Which

20:03

stands for? Ohio High School Athletic

20:06

Association.

20:07

Their policies stated that I had

20:09

to either, I

20:12

had to be on hormone

20:15

therapy for at least a year

20:18

and or I had to have

20:20

a doctor saying that I

20:22

didn't have a

20:24

biological

20:26

advantage based on sex. Like

20:28

a physiological edge. Yeah.

20:31

That was the rule.

20:32

And what does that mean? What does it mean

20:34

to be on hormones free? Yeah, it means, well,

20:37

in my situation, because it's different for

20:40

every trans person based on what

20:42

they need medically or what their

20:44

doctor prescribes, for me it

20:46

meant a testosterone

20:48

suppressant

20:50

and taking estradiol

20:53

for a year.

20:54

And how do you take that? I take

20:56

that just via pills. And

20:59

how often do you have to take these pills? Or beyond

21:02

this regimen?

21:03

I have to take them twice a day.

21:06

And it's like a whole,

21:09

like nine pills.

21:11

That's a lot of pills ever. That's not the

21:13

only thing I'm taking, but like altogether

21:15

the concoction is nine

21:18

pills in the morning, nine pills at night.

21:21

The point being that in order to play sports,

21:24

it's not like you show up one day and say,

21:26

no, hey guys, I'm different now. Yeah.

21:29

And then they put you on the girls team.

21:32

Which is what a lot of people

21:34

think. If you gave Brock Lesnar

21:36

a sex change and put him in a dress, he's

21:38

gonna run through every woman that's ever

21:40

lived in the history of women.

21:43

That's

21:44

what a lot of politicians

21:46

have actually told me that they're afraid of

21:48

and that

21:49

that's what they're trying to protect. And I'm like,

21:52

great,

21:53

that's not happening. Like that's

21:55

just not a thing. There's a

21:58

commitment, an investment of real.

21:59

Yes. That is, it

22:02

seems like a hell of a long way

22:04

if you're doing this as a stunt. And

22:07

the important thing to realize is that

22:10

people don't go on this stuff just

22:13

so that they're able to play sports.

22:15

They go on this stuff so that they

22:17

fit their identity, so that they can feel

22:19

like themselves. If

22:21

they get to play sports because of it, that's

22:23

just an added bonus.

22:25

So you've been taking these

22:27

pills, undergoing hormone therapy, for a year,

22:30

leading into sophomore year? Yes. In

22:33

order to play sports. And you have to prove as

22:35

a consequence that you don't have the biological,

22:38

physical, physiological advantage. Exactly.

22:41

How do you prove that? Great

22:44

question.

22:55

What do you think?

23:01

What do you think?

23:08

They originally were

23:11

asking for muscle mass.

23:15

How much

23:16

your muscle index is, your bone density.

23:20

All this stuff. And my doctors were just

23:22

like, I don't know how to do that.

23:24

I ended up being the one who was mostly

23:26

interacting between going

23:29

back and forth between the doctor and the

23:31

compliance director at the state going,

23:34

well, the doctor doesn't know what you want. What

23:36

do you want?

23:38

The doctors wrote them, wrote

23:40

the OHSAA and were just like, hey, what,

23:44

what, what do we do? A lot of

23:46

doctors don't know what to do because

23:48

there's so few

23:51

trans kids in sports and trans people

23:53

in sports. She had to submit all

23:55

the blood work, showing her testosterone

23:58

levels, showing her estrogen levels. showing

24:01

her height and her weight and how

24:03

long she'd been at those levels and all her growth

24:05

charts.

24:06

It was incredibly

24:08

invasive, and ultimately

24:11

it just creates the feeling of

24:14

just, like, they don't view me as

24:16

a real girl, per se.

24:19

But the point being, taking

24:22

all of that into consideration, that

24:25

this is how badly you wanted to do

24:27

this. This is how badly you wanted

24:29

to be on this team playing this game, is that you

24:31

subjected yourself willingly to a regimen of rules

24:34

that as invasive as they were, you also

24:37

understood if this is the price that I need to

24:39

pay to be on the team

24:41

that I actually identify with,

24:44

that I want to be on, that I deserve to

24:46

be on, I will do this. Yeah.

24:49

And so when you finally

24:54

got approval, what

24:59

was that like? Do you remember that? What was that

25:01

moment? Yeah.

25:03

So that would have been sophomore year.

25:05

I was in my room, totally doing homework. As

25:08

one does? Yes, absolutely. When

25:10

they're supposed to be doing. Not playing with

25:13

upwards of 30 lizards or snails.

25:16

No, no, no, no, no.

25:18

My mom comes into my room and she's crying.

25:21

And I asked her what was wrong.

25:23

And she told me that I had been approved

25:26

to play. So

25:28

I started crying.

25:30

And I showed her the email

25:32

and we were both just

25:34

bawling, just tears, all

25:37

down our faces. And I think

25:39

it will always be one of the most affirming moments of her

25:41

life, this feeling of I can

25:44

be one of the girls.

25:45

And my brother walks in the room

25:48

and he goes, what happened? Did someone

25:50

die? I just

25:52

look up at him and I say, the

25:55

state agrees that I'm a girl through

25:58

sobs. Just

26:00

this giant grin.

26:06

When you think back on your first

26:09

foray into playing on the girls

26:12

team, were there a lot of drama?

26:15

No.

26:16

Not at all. The

26:19

only drama was

26:21

from the state. Your teammates. My

26:23

teammates were great. So a lot of these conversations are about

26:26

you're taking spots away from

26:28

the real girls. Yeah. That's

26:32

what the news is blaring. Yeah.

26:36

And in reality, what happened in terms of their

26:39

reaction, your teammates' reaction to you

26:41

joining? When I came out

26:43

to my most recent summer

26:45

team this past summer, everyone

26:49

got into a circle and we all

26:51

went around your name, your

26:53

grade, and

26:54

a fun fact about you. And

26:57

I was like, I am Brazil.

27:00

I am upcoming

27:02

freshman in college and

27:04

I am trans.

27:07

Half of the facial expressions

27:09

just like, okay, I'm

27:12

gay. I didn't use that as my fun fact. What

27:14

are you like? They were just like,

27:16

okay, show off. Like it was

27:19

it was clearly like it was weird and

27:21

they thought it was weird. Not that

27:23

I was trans, but that I told

27:25

them I was trans like it was a big deal.

27:31

So they were not worried about a job security,

27:34

but it came to their playing time. That was not

27:36

their response. Not even slightly. So

27:39

if the kids on the team

27:41

didn't,

27:42

they almost didn't care, weren't impressed

27:45

by the fact that you were trans,

27:47

who did not want you to play

27:49

softball?

27:51

Politicians. It exclusively

27:56

politicians and mostly

27:59

older.

27:59

male politicians. What

28:03

did they do?

28:08

They are doing their damn

28:10

best to make it illegal for me to play.

28:14

There's a nationwide effort to save women's sports.

28:17

Conservative lawmakers have introduced bills in 30

28:19

states that would prevent transgender

28:22

athletes from participating in girls sports.

28:25

And the governor of Arkansas just signed a bill

28:27

into law there.

28:28

So actually it was two

28:31

months after I was approved

28:33

to play. Two months after

28:36

I was in my

28:38

mom's crying tears of joy

28:41

because the state

28:43

of Ohio said that I

28:45

was a girl. I could play with the girls.

28:48

The Ohio State House introduced

28:51

a bill that would make

28:53

it illegal for me to play.

28:57

And that bill, by the way, first introduced in 2021

29:00

was named the Save Women's

29:02

Sports Act.

29:04

The Save Women's Sports Act is a fairness issue

29:06

for women to be able to achieve their dreams and

29:09

athletics in our state. And it's crucial

29:11

to preserving women's rights and the integrity

29:13

of women's and girls sports.

29:15

Which meant banning trans girls from joining

29:17

girls teams

29:19

specifically. And that

29:21

felt how personal

29:24

to you. At

29:27

the time it didn't feel extremely

29:30

personal. It was just like, ah, fear.

29:34

Which made sense. I was aware

29:36

that

29:37

people are afraid of what they don't understand.

29:40

Like the same exact thing with

29:42

Miami. You

29:44

don't understand it, so it's scary.

29:48

And I get that to some extent. It's

29:50

a defense mechanism. It's for safety.

29:54

But then I found out that

29:57

at the time I was the

29:59

only high school trans

30:02

female athlete in Ohio that

30:05

had been approved to play. The only

30:08

one.

30:08

The population they were concerned

30:11

about, the people who they

30:13

saw as threatening sports

30:16

and their girls, yes, was

30:19

literally just you. Yes.

30:22

Do you think that they knew that you were the only one?

30:24

Do you think they know

30:26

your name?

30:29

At the time they didn't, they probably didn't

30:31

even know I was the only one. But

30:34

when I started

30:35

advocacy work, I made sure that they

30:37

knew that

30:39

was an immediate

30:43

thing that I would tell politicians when

30:45

I had one-on-one conversations.

30:47

I'd be like, so we're very clear

30:49

this is a law

30:51

directed exclusively

30:54

at me right now.

30:57

Which is a remarkable thing in terms

30:59

of the presumed size of this population.

31:02

Like the threat is everywhere. They're coming

31:05

for your girls, they're coming for their scholarships,

31:07

they're coming for all this stuff. Yeah. And

31:09

the entire state,

31:12

again, was organized

31:15

against one

31:17

trans girl. Mm-hmm. Which

31:19

was you. Yes. What

31:22

was it like to go to the state

31:25

house

31:27

and speak up and actually challenge

31:30

authority in person?

31:31

I've had to do it multiple

31:34

times and every

31:36

time it's not enjoyable.

31:39

It's not

31:40

exciting, it's not, oh wow, this is...

31:42

It's not the movie version that I would

31:44

imagine. It's

31:46

demeaning and it's

31:50

horrifically painful to

31:53

have to look up at people

31:55

who are in these big chairs above

31:58

you and

33:29

just

34:00

politicians that are trying

34:03

to incite fear.

34:05

Those fears, it was somewhat

34:07

startling for me to go through some of the tape

34:10

of these congressional hearings

34:12

in Ohio and to see that

34:14

it often went into the

34:16

realm of, I'll put

34:18

it generously, the metaphysical. Like

34:22

this was stuff about spiritual

34:26

concerns, religious concerns.

34:28

Yeah. Concerns about demons,

34:31

literally. Yes.

34:33

That is actually

34:36

something that someone said. Yeah,

34:39

I wanna play that video for you. Oh, that's fun.

34:43

We call him demon dude? Well demon dude,

34:45

there's a thing about demon dude that is important

34:47

because you're not exaggerating.

34:50

No. The only thing that makes sense for what's

34:53

going on in this country is that demons

34:55

are influencing people, allowing their bodies

34:58

to be possessed to

35:00

run satanic agendas.

35:03

People that are possessed by demons don't get to make

35:05

demonic agendas and demonic

35:07

doctrines that affect our people and

35:10

our children and our laws in

35:12

our country. Thank you very much for

35:14

being with us and sharing your testimony today.

35:17

That's pretty literal.

35:20

Yeah.

35:21

No, he fully believes that

35:24

there are demons possessing

35:28

people.

35:30

And so I guess, journalistically, I have to ask

35:33

if you and Berzelch are possessed

35:36

by a demon. I mean, if I am,

35:38

I am not aware of it. That's

35:41

what a person possessed by a demon would

35:43

say. Yeah, yeah. I'm a pretty

35:46

empathetic demon if I'm a demon.

35:49

I feel like you've established on the record that you are,

35:51

if anything, a nymph

35:54

who loves playing games. Yeah.

35:57

What have been some of the justifications?

36:00

for why these representatives are

36:02

so impassioned and so worried about

36:06

girls like Ember.

36:08

So they will flat out lie. We

36:10

had a situation just at

36:13

one of our hearings a couple of months ago.

36:16

Representative Williams.

36:18

Thank you, Mr. Chairman. So

36:23

first I've met with the Department of Education. There's

36:25

been countless complaints

36:27

filed in regards to the trans policy.

36:30

The Department has confirmed that.

36:33

So a friend of mine who actually came

36:36

to the State House with us and ended up testifying

36:39

at the athlete ban hearings did a deep

36:41

dive into the topic when

36:44

there was, when one of the representatives

36:46

said that there were countless complaints against trans

36:48

athletes and she found that there

36:50

were zero. She had multiple

36:53

email exchanges with the athletic

36:55

association. And I said, no, there have been

36:57

zero complaints against transgender athletes

37:00

in this state.

37:01

And I should also note that we cross-checked this here

37:03

at Pavlo Torre finds out we looked into those multiple

37:06

email exchanges and yeah,

37:09

the Ohio High School Athletic Association

37:11

says in writing that there

37:13

have been zero filed complaints

37:16

against any trans students who've been

37:18

approved to compete to date. Their

37:21

compliance director actually counted. And

37:23

so we then reached out to Representative Josh Williams

37:27

to tape an interview because zero complaints

37:29

filed is the opposite

37:32

of countless complaints filed, as

37:34

he said. And also I wanted

37:36

to know what he really knew about the experiences

37:39

of the trans girls he represents

37:43

in his own state. But

37:46

Representative Williams declined.

37:49

And so here's a bit more of what Ember Zelsch,

37:52

backup catcher on her high school softball

37:54

team, tried to tell the government

37:57

herself in her testimony.

38:00

Playing on a girls team has been an incredible

38:02

experience for me. I have made so

38:05

many friends and improved so much despite

38:07

starting so late. My teammates treat

38:09

me just like anyone else in the team. So

38:12

do my coaches. My teams are

38:14

part of my family. We are

38:16

all so different and come from

38:18

different cliques, but when we are together

38:21

on the field we are there for each

38:23

other no matter what. Every kid should be lucky

38:25

enough to have that experience.

38:28

But when it comes to saving women's

38:30

sports, like

38:31

actually supporting women's sports,

38:34

Ember did have something else

38:37

that she wanted to say. What was

38:39

your experience like on the girls team? What did

38:41

the facilities look like?

38:45

Almost every field

38:47

was crap for lack

38:50

of better description. They

38:52

were sh**. They were falling apart half

38:55

the time. They were flooded, muddy, not

38:58

up-kept at all. My

39:00

team's field is

39:02

the elementary school

39:05

field. Our baseball teams,

39:09

Varsity and Junior

39:12

Varsity, had two fields.

39:15

Both of them at the high school. They

39:17

could simply walk outside

39:19

for a game or a practice.

39:23

My team had to get

39:26

on a bus to go

39:28

to our field. Not

39:30

for a away

39:33

game

39:34

to our home game. Wait, wait,

39:36

wait. So you needed to take a bus to

39:38

the sh**y field in order to do

39:40

the most basic thing? Yes. And

39:44

did you ever hear any of these

39:46

politicians

39:47

advocate

39:48

on... Yeah. No. Yeah. It just

39:50

sounds like a giant cluster.

39:53

That there is just an endless stream.

39:55

It sounds like a legislation that that you

39:58

are being dared to fight.

40:00

Mm-hmm,

40:01

and I wonder if you've considered leaving

40:03

for that reason. Yeah, I Am

40:06

leaving I am leaving

40:08

for college I

40:11

received a ten thousand dollar scholarship that's

40:16

Open for any school in the state

40:18

in Ohio and

40:20

I am leaving that

40:23

so you're leaving Ohio finally

40:26

and

40:27

You're doing it because you

40:29

you feel like Your your

40:31

well-being your fundamental well-being is

40:34

at risk if you remain But

40:36

what happens to your athletic aspirations

40:38

here you fought for this and so

40:40

what happens next for you with with

40:43

softball?

40:44

I have Really

40:48

had the amazing opportunity

40:51

to be able to play

40:54

In college that

40:56

is something that I'm able to do just

40:59

because of all my incredible abilities

41:02

that you know, I

41:03

Is a secret my parents

41:06

don't even know I actually got a scholarship

41:08

to this school because of Because

41:10

of my athletic prowess that definitely

41:12

no one's ever seen. Yeah Yeah,

41:15

they're really good scouts. Yes. They

41:17

sent some scouts for the Division three school

41:22

And and they saw oh that that

41:24

girl on the bench the one that's Keeping

41:26

the seat warm with the blanket around her because

41:28

it's cold and she's not holding

41:30

bow constrictors Yeah, she's not keeping

41:33

warm because she's not playing. We

41:35

want her on our team. Yes

41:38

that one Yeah with them with the colorful

41:41

hair. Yeah, but you're but but you what

41:43

for real though? Yeah, I want to keep playing Yes

41:46

Despite all of it, Ember this sounds crazy to me

41:49

on just some basic level you sat down

41:51

here with me And you've told me of all the ways

41:53

in which this has been this

41:55

mythological test of

41:58

your fortitude and

41:59

your

41:59

like I'm gonna keep at

42:02

it. I wanna keep doing this. Why?

42:10

On the field I can put away

42:12

all the bullsh**, all

42:15

of this legislation, scholarships,

42:19

all these

42:21

thoughts constantly racing around

42:23

in my head. All this struggle,

42:26

I can set that aside on

42:28

the field. And I can join

42:31

this group of people who understand

42:33

my desire to just

42:36

want to be part of a team, to

42:38

just want to be in this group,

42:41

to just be ourselves and

42:43

to forget about all the other

42:46

bullsh** for just an hour and a half.

42:49

That's why it's worth

42:52

it to me to keep going

42:55

through all these tests to

42:57

keep dealing with the ideology

43:01

that I am some monster

43:04

in order to still just be able to

43:07

be myself and forget about

43:09

life for just a little bit.

43:19

I should confess here, Ember, that I'm not very

43:22

good at sports either. Really?

43:25

Well, yes, shockingly. I

43:27

know for the audience, I'm very jacked. I'm the John

43:29

Cena of Metal Arc Media. But

43:33

what you just said was beautiful

43:36

because is why I've always

43:38

loved sports too. It's

43:40

the idea that I'm not trying

43:42

to be the best. I'm trying to have a good time

43:45

with my friends. And I feel like when

43:47

I cover sports, the reason I've loved, one of the

43:49

reasons I've loved talking to you is because the

43:51

big picture of sports is

43:53

so much more vast than

43:56

the elite athletes in the LeBron James's,

43:58

the Olympians.

43:59

It's about people who will never

44:02

play beyond at best D3

44:05

softball.

44:06

Just like being about this life, seeing

44:08

the value in it. And it occurs

44:11

to me that you are through

44:13

this whole Odyssey. You're

44:15

kind of a star. But

44:18

you've been a voice, a face for

44:21

your community, not just your team, but

44:23

also for trans girls.

44:26

And what does it feel like to be a public

44:29

person,

44:30

having done interviews, been again,

44:33

talking to Congress,

44:35

for something that's not actually

44:38

about your back

44:40

of the baseball card stats?

44:43

I hate it. I'm

44:44

not

44:45

even joking. I've made a lot

44:47

of

44:48

sarcastic jokes throughout this whole thing.

44:51

I truly hate it. I

44:53

don't want to be the

44:55

center of focus. I don't want to

44:57

have to testify. It sucks. I

45:00

don't want that. I hate

45:02

interviews. I

45:05

am an introvert. I would much rather

45:07

be hanging out

45:09

with my partner. I'd much rather be playing a game. I'd

45:15

much rather be watching

45:18

some

45:18

obscure movie or show.

45:21

I'd much rather be doing any of those things. I'd

45:24

much rather be reading a book. And I'm dyslexic.

45:28

It does occur to me too that so much of what

45:31

you're describing is fundamentally the desire

45:33

to blend in, to

45:36

not be spotlit. And

45:39

that is also another way in which trans

45:41

athletes, trans people in general, have been

45:44

presented, is they want to put everything

45:47

in your face. They want to change

45:49

the things you love, ruin them, because

45:51

they can't stop being

45:53

loud and proud in front of you. And you are

45:56

telling me that you want as many Twitter followers

45:58

as you have home runs.

46:02

Hopefully there'll be at least one Twitter

46:05

follower next to you then. I

46:07

want at least one moment. But

46:12

yeah, I don't

46:14

want attention. I don't want any

46:16

of this. I don't want to be the weird kid that has

46:19

a camera on their face. Talking

46:22

to you is honestly the best interview

46:24

I've had, but it still sucks.

46:28

I feel you. I'm sorry.

46:32

Ember, thank

46:34

you very much for taking

46:37

the time to do something that admittedly

46:40

sucks, but I think means

46:43

a lot to a lot of people. I'd say of course,

46:45

but...

47:14

So as I sit down in front

47:16

of my keyboard and reflect on what it is

47:18

that I found out today, I

47:21

am blown away by

47:23

how obvious it is now that

47:26

the single most exaggerated

47:29

campaign issue, the single most exaggerated

47:31

fear in American

47:34

life is the

47:36

fear of trans girls invading

47:39

women's sports. Something

47:42

that cable news and politicians

47:44

cannot stop selling us as

47:47

this huge pressing concern.

47:52

And I do get that there are concerns

47:54

here. I do get that there are real

47:56

competitive advantages to going through

47:58

male puberty. Like

48:01

height, for instance, can never be undone.

48:04

We should be honest about these things. But

48:08

I also believe that the biggest advantage there is

48:10

testosterone, and that can

48:13

and should be regulated by

48:15

rule. I

48:18

believe that this is a reasonable policy if done

48:20

reasonably. But

48:23

what I am blown away by

48:25

is just how clear it is that inside

48:28

that tiny, tiny, tiny, tiny population

48:31

of trans kids, a population that statistically

48:33

you will never even meet, they

48:36

are not all

48:38

Leah Thomas. They are

48:40

not. They're

48:42

not coming for your scholarships

48:44

and opportunities and trophies.

48:47

They're bench warmers too. They're

48:50

teenagers who just want to be on a

48:53

team where they

48:55

belong. They

48:57

are Ember Zelsch in

48:59

so many words. Just

49:03

not that good at sports.

49:06

And just like us, human

49:09

beings who deserve the right to be

49:11

completely mediocre at the

49:14

thing they love.

49:17

And that's why today, in the end, what

49:20

I found out is so clear to

49:22

me. And

49:24

this is a regret that I have, thinking

49:26

back on how my interview with Ember

49:29

went, hearing about all of the metaphors

49:31

and symbols that we discussed.

49:35

What I found out

49:37

is that I really should have

49:39

been brave enough to

49:41

hold that boa

49:44

constrictor. This

49:54

has been Pablo Torre finds out, a

49:57

Metalarc Media production.

49:59

I'll talk to you next time.