0:01

Eh , not what your country can

0:03

do for you and what you

0:05

can do for your country. You are [inaudible]

0:08

, right . One word

0:10

victory . I have a dream

0:13

of one day. This nation will

0:17

spot , has the power to change

0:19

the world . It turns the boom's

0:21

fine.

0:25

Hello, you're listening to lead different by triangle

0:27

media. Today's episode is part two of the

0:29

discussion on sports culture and what we can

0:32

learn from its development of leaders as

0:34

a refresher. Joining us today on the episode

0:36

is Caleb Coleman , a former division one student athlete

0:39

for the cal Berkeley Football Team and Matthew

0:41

McHugh , a broadcast journalism student and color commentator

0:43

for Northwestern universities . W N

0:46

U R sports, the broadcasting home

0:48

for Northwestern wildcat athletics. You

0:50

can find lead different on iTunes, stitcher

0:52

and soundcloud and wherever you listen to podcast

0:55

, make sure to subscribe for more content. Leave

0:57

a five star rating and review. Now

0:59

back to the conference

1:00

session .

1:06

You know we were just talking about uh , sports

1:08

culture and leadership and this is our second session.

1:10

We're really going to kind of dive into a little bit more detail

1:13

and we're going to do it off of the , uh

1:15

, example of one of the most inspiring examples

1:17

to me of leadership and sports was when Northwestern

1:19

football players decided to try to form a union.

1:22

Um, and Matt's here and he's gonna really kind

1:24

of take us into it and help us understand why that's relevant,

1:27

why that's important.

1:28

Yeah. So this , uh , this story, Russ started

1:30

in, I believe it was 2014, it

1:32

was right before I got to Northwestern. Uh,

1:34

it was king Coulter at the base of it. He was

1:37

one of the quarterbacks that , a two quarterback system

1:39

at the time as Ken Coulter and

1:41

the other one was Trevor Simeon who, oh , [inaudible]

1:44

NFL player forgot those guys were their Superbowl champion.

1:46

Yeah. Um, yeah. Yeah . So , uh,

1:48

anyway, it was him at the base of it. And

1:51

essentially the whole purpose of this was all

1:53

of the players agreed. Look

1:55

with college athletes deserve to be paid was kind

1:57

of the, the basis for that argument. And

2:00

to do that, a step towards that process

2:02

is let's form a union. We're essentially workers

2:05

for the , for the school, for this program. Yeah . We

2:07

should form a union. We should demand better,

2:10

better rights for , for the work we're putting in

2:12

and the money we're bringing into this program. Right.

2:15

Um, ultimately not, not much came event

2:17

I believe. I'm not sure what the legal resolution

2:19

was there. Um, but it

2:22

was just more about the, the, at that initial act

2:24

of we're going to form a union, which

2:26

kind of brought a whole, the , brought this whole argument

2:28

of paying college players back into

2:30

the spotlight. And it's still, I believe

2:32

very much in the spotlight and very much

2:34

a hot button topic in sports media

2:36

today. And a big reason for that is

2:39

these Northwestern players to think about four or five years

2:41

ago now , uh , deciding to form that

2:43

union. Um , and then Caleb, obviously you probably

2:45

have a lot of thoughts on that too. I'm a

2:47

as a, as , as , as someone involved in sports and

2:49

sports media. I've seen the work these

2:51

athletes put in and I as

2:53

someone like me who only takes, I don't

2:55

know, like I'll go on a weekend trip with the theme or I'll go

2:57

on a trip. Yeah. I

2:59

start falling behind the classes. Yeah . I see the players working

3:02

on the boss on flight . I'm like, this

3:04

is absurd. What these players go through, how much

3:06

work they put in [inaudible] let

3:08

me ask you about this shit .

3:09

Let me ask you about this. Cause there

3:11

, I'm going gonna make an assumption here. There must

3:14

be something in the culture at Northwestern because other universities

3:16

didn't do this. And what

3:18

is it about the culture of the team or

3:20

the culture of the school that , that

3:23

allowed that to even happen?

3:25

So Northwestern is interesting because it's , it's

3:27

very small relative to other big 10 schools.

3:30

It's less than half the size of the next

3:32

biggest big 10 school. I didn't know that. It's very, very

3:34

small. 8,000 Undergrad. I think the next

3:36

smallest is Nebraska with 20,000

3:39

Undergrad. Um , so it's, it's

3:41

much smaller and as a result, football,

3:44

all sports just aren't quite as big. It's a lot

3:46

more of an academic focus. Um,

3:48

and the student sections is never really full for

3:50

games. People don't get up and excited

3:52

for game day. A lot of reason for that was because

3:55

the teams were bad for so long. There

3:57

hasn't really been that same culture that there is throughout

3:59

the rest of the big 10. And I would say most

4:01

power five programs. So football being

4:03

kind of the Rock, the basis and

4:06

there's a huge foundation built there. So

4:08

I think that that kind of allowed an opportunity for

4:10

Northwestern to build their own identity

4:12

identity and build something different. Um,

4:14

and I think that might've been part of the inspiration

4:17

for those players deciding to form the union. Um,

4:19

and I , I think that it

4:22

has to be the right culture in place for that to happen,

4:24

not just with the whole school and organization,

4:26

but also those players.

4:28

So , so we , we you're talking about, and we're going to get Caleb in

4:30

on this, but I think it's important because

4:33

I think when people think about athletes, too many

4:35

people, when they think about athletes, they think

4:37

about people who are not , uh , intellectually

4:39

rigorous or engaged, right? Honestly

4:42

, Northwestern is intellectually rigorous and engaged.

4:44

I had the opportunity to watch Danford in their practices

4:46

and I'll tell you something, those are some very

4:48

intellectually engaged people. We have cow here,

4:51

which Caleb can talk about. But I think it's important

4:53

people understand that , that, that there

4:55

are a lot of athletes who

4:58

are intellectually, socially,

5:01

emotionally engaged with life outside

5:03

of the sport. They care about it. And

5:05

to me, those guys, the reason I respected

5:07

it is I 100%. I , I

5:09

, I paid for meals

5:12

for guys who were athletes in my

5:14

school cause they , they didn't have any money and

5:16

people think, Oh, you got a scholarship, why

5:18

aren't you fine? And , uh,

5:21

yeah, well, okay, there you need money

5:23

outside that . And many times they can't work and

5:25

then they're there . They're working out. But I think

5:27

that it's important for us to note that

5:30

sports is part of who a person

5:32

is. But what we're

5:34

seeing with these Northwestern players and in this case,

5:36

in another athletic situations, is

5:39

we're seeing the leaders rise. And you mentioned two

5:41

pretty prominent names that I remember

5:43

from a two one 2014

5:45

at the time of guys who are willing

5:47

to stand up and be criticized,

5:50

be categorized in a certain

5:52

way, negatively because they want to do

5:54

something. And I think that's how change happens. But that's what

5:56

leadership, and it circles back to our

5:58

original conversation. These are guys

6:01

who, when they were five, when they were seven,

6:03

when they were 11 they were playing on teams

6:06

and they're used to sticking together. And

6:08

I think it's interesting that in a,

6:10

it was in a football team that was

6:12

able to get itself a unified and that

6:14

unity is because there was some guy

6:16

probably on the team who was like, I don't know if we need to be getting

6:18

into this, that looked at the team and said,

6:20

hey, if we're going to go, we're gonna all go together.

6:23

And that's why that , that's why I think sports

6:25

offers a different kind of leadership. It's

6:27

a collective leadership. We're willing

6:30

to let Trevor Simeon be the front face

6:32

of a what we're doing, but we're going to stand 100%

6:35

behind him . And so I think it's a very powerful

6:37

thing. I love it. But we can talk both

6:39

about the leadership it took to do that and

6:41

what we'll take even I think, I think you're

6:43

gonna need more athletes to do that. Yeah . If

6:45

we're going to see it get better. And when you look at what's happening

6:47

in sports with the coaches,

6:50

including our coach at Michigan, making so much money,

6:53

president's making so much money and these kids

6:55

not, I mean it's a fraction of what

6:57

they're bringing in. And a lot of these universities, not every

6:59

one of them , uh, there should be something

7:01

done. But leadership by the athletes

7:04

is a really relevant part. But I think it's a good,

7:06

instead of people criticizing

7:08

athletes for having as

7:10

socially, emotionally, intellectually,

7:13

I think they should look and go, that's profound

7:15

that they're doing that.

7:16

Yeah. I mean, one of the things that

7:19

stuck out to me was how they're willing to kind

7:21

of impose a system in place. Uh,

7:23

made me think of, I remember, you know, playing

7:25

at Texas, I referenced earlier, you know, going

7:28

up to Washington or , um, when

7:30

you're playing in some of these environments, it is

7:32

very much so us against

7:34

the world mentality. Right ? Um, and

7:36

I think when you're, when you're playing sports,

7:38

growing up at five, at seven,

7:40

at 11, you're, you're

7:42

used to and kind of developing that mindset

7:45

of us against this other

7:47

team or this other, you know, you go on

7:49

that away game, it's us against this, this city,

7:51

you know, against this whole group of people. Um,

7:54

so I would imagine, I mean, going into the Northwestern

7:56

example, they had developed that,

7:59

that kind of niche or that kind of ability

8:02

to, to kind of go in and say, hey,

8:04

we're all Kinda gonna challenge

8:06

this system in place. Being the, you know, paying

8:08

the athletes and whatnot. Um, which

8:11

I think was, is what enabled them

8:13

to, to do something like that and completely

8:17

validating the fact that it

8:19

takes a very unique place to do something like that.

8:21

I look at Northwestern , um, one

8:23

of the schools I wanted to go to was looking at Stanford,

8:25

cal , Northwestern, kind of some of my top schools,

8:28

but , uh, there was something very common

8:30

in those, in those environment. Interesting. Yeah.

8:32

I think there's something very similar and I

8:34

think it was only going to come out of a

8:36

Northwestern, a cow, a Stanford something

8:39

where you're much more engaged intellectually.

8:41

You know , there's challenge .

8:42

Do you guys think that as we're talking about

8:44

this, do you think that people, I may be wrong

8:46

about this, but do you think people misunderstand

8:49

athletes and athletics because

8:52

it , it seems like , um,

8:57

people can be pretty judgmental of athletes, at least

8:59

it feels that way to me. Yeah, definitely.

9:02

Uh , I've , I've noticed that too. I've seen , I've noticed people with

9:04

football players and I thought , oh, this is going to be easy class.

9:07

They'll get all the football players [inaudible]

9:11

these guys put in. I mean,

9:13

I, I'm, I'm willing to say it , some of the , a lot of them study

9:15

more than I do, which is really impressive given

9:17

how much time they devote to their athletics

9:20

too. But I think it's just the work ethic of

9:22

VCU. I'm sure Kayla can back this up to , um,

9:24

at least from what I've noticed at Northwestern, the

9:27

work ethic these guys have, they operate

9:29

so differently. They get themselves up at 6:00

9:32

AM yeah , go weightlift they spend their whole day

9:34

working and it's like they're working out,

9:36

they're studying, they got tutors, they're

9:38

there. Every step of their day is so

9:40

scheduled. And it's like, man,

9:42

I'm going to wake up at 10 and go to class. [inaudible]

9:49

the way athletes opera , especially if you're going to be

9:51

that good competitive at , at

9:53

, at a good academic institution and I can't,

9:55

I have to operate,

9:56

can't understand. And you know, and I , I wouldn't

9:59

even, you know, I obviously their athletic

10:01

programs who, you know, they're

10:03

, they're these cases where people just don't do anything.

10:05

I get that. But I

10:08

think far in a way and

10:10

from what I've seen in the athletes I have known and I've known

10:12

more than a few , um, these

10:15

guys are working hard and there's all kinds of different levels

10:17

and types of intelligence that we can get into education

10:19

and talk about the fact that, well, what if you have spacial

10:21

intelligence but your , you know, your,

10:24

your, your, your cognitive capability

10:26

to read is not that good. Does that mean that you're

10:28

useless? And I think part of it is society

10:31

has to, to upgrade its understanding

10:33

of what it's like to be an athlete and

10:35

how much are their characters built. I want

10:38

you to explain on that, but I'm going to tell people the story

10:40

just for those who are older that may be sitting there

10:42

poo-pooing going , you're getting back on $100,000 a year for education.

10:45

He should shut up and just go eat, you know, and be quiet.

10:48

Okay. But the bill

10:50

Bradley, you guys are maybe too

10:52

young to know who he is. One of my

10:54

favorite players growing up, 1970s

10:56

New York Knicks , they won the

10:58

NBA Championship. He went to Princeton, he was a leading score, I believe. And

11:01

I didn't go back and look, but I'm pretty much, I think

11:03

I'm accurate on this. He was the leading score in college basketball.

11:06

I read a book about Bill Bradley. Someone gave me a leather

11:08

bound vintage, a copy of it about eight

11:10

years ago. And uh, he

11:13

talked about his life and what he had done and what Bill

11:15

Bradley did on every road trip in the NBA was

11:17

he took policy books with

11:20

him everywhere. He ended up being the U S senator from New

11:22

Jersey ended up running for president. I

11:25

in a few . So he went to Princeton. Look, if

11:28

you're an athlete, you can go anywhere and

11:30

your life's going to be tough academically. I don't care

11:32

where you go. Um, but I think

11:34

people underestimate. He

11:36

was one of the most collaborative, reasonable

11:39

, uh, able to be on both sides

11:41

of the aisles . Guy that you can go look them

11:43

up, people can read about him and brilliant , uh,

11:46

able to work with just about anybody. He had a hard time, I

11:48

think campaigning for president cause he didn't want to slash

11:51

and burn people, which is also that

11:53

I think athlete, people talk about how athletes trash-talk but

11:56

seriously, athletes don't generally get

11:58

into tearing everybody down. It's just not their deal.

12:00

And you might, you might crush them athletically, but

12:02

you're not trying to crush them personally.

12:05

So I feel like we need more, I guess

12:07

where my position is, we need more athletes in

12:09

politics, in business as part

12:11

of teams to add that sprinkle that,

12:14

that fairy dust if you would of

12:16

of I can respect you and compete against

12:18

you, you know, that kind of thing. But yeah,

12:21

I mean I think

12:22

that that's inspiring. I know about him.

12:24

Uh, but I mean it would make sense. I mean I

12:27

can only speak on my experience, right,

12:29

but, but being a cow , I

12:31

mean, just the level of rigor that we are , we've

12:33

been talking about, I mean , you've seen that play out firsthand

12:35

of, you know, you have your 6:00 AM lift,

12:38

you know, you, you wake up early, you have your lift

12:40

, then you have a ADM class. You

12:42

know, and then you have a class

12:45

and leading up to maybe a half hour break

12:47

before a one 30 meetings, right

12:49

? Then you're in meetings from one 30 to three

12:51

30 and then three 30 to six 30

12:53

you're practicing. I'm already tired. Yup . Yeah.

12:56

And then if you, yeah.

12:58

And then if you, if you want, you know,

13:00

to, to really separate yourself and

13:02

really be great at what you're doing, you're going to stay on the field

13:04

a couple, you know, extra 2030 minutes

13:06

to kind of get extra working with your position coach.

13:10

Um, and then we have dinner man , mandatory dinner

13:12

yet you're at , so you're looking at really

13:14

when you're settled in, in a place

13:16

to really even start your homework, you

13:18

know, seven 30 or 8:00 PM and that's,

13:20

that's the daily schedule. So I think

13:22

the character that we're kind of almost forced

13:25

to, to develop and build in

13:27

order to just stay afloat academically

13:30

while competing at the level

13:32

we are against the top athletes

13:34

in the country. I think it's

13:37

almost a sink or swim kind of thing.

13:39

And I think that's why, you know, red shirting

13:41

is as prevalent as it is. You know, you

13:43

red shirting is explained you . So red shirting

13:45

is your first year coming as

13:48

a freshman, you'll pretty much all

13:50

, you'll do a red shirt seal. You're not

13:52

eligible , um, to,

13:54

to play. But you , you save your year so

13:57

you'll be there for five years, skip next year, don't play

13:59

your game . So decreases some

14:01

of the pressure on it . Exactly. But you do everything else.

14:03

You do everything else. So you're in the media and everything minus

14:06

minus travel, right? Yeah. Minus travel. So

14:08

I think that's why red shirting I'd say about, you

14:11

look at a Stanford program who's really solidified

14:13

their program and the type of culture they want to develop.

14:15

I would, I would argue about 75 to 80%

14:18

of their players going to red shirt when they first enter

14:20

the program their freshman year. And I think that

14:23

speaks to, I mean, Stanford a program I have a

14:25

lot of respect for the

14:27

type of players that they have on and

14:29

off the field. I think they're, they're really getting

14:31

their guys in that first year and developing that.

14:33

Right. All the things we're talking about, they're developing

14:35

that character and that ability to handle

14:38

the rigors of the academic institutions,

14:41

you know , that , that they're at in addition

14:43

to the rigor of on the field. And

14:45

I don't even think it has to be a Stanford or a cow

14:48

as well. I mean like you, you were talking about earlier

14:51

your , it's college. Yeah. You know, in college

14:53

is not easy and when you look at

14:55

the amount of time the normal student

14:58

spends studying and then you add in

15:00

the athletic, you know, components

15:02

and expectations. I mean I think

15:04

that's why we see the , the

15:07

level of kind of a character

15:09

that, that, that seen from athletes especially

15:11

playing at that level. And I think the

15:14

one other thing that I mentioned there is like you mentioned the

15:16

travel. You don't travel for red shirt, but God

15:18

, I've seen how much that, how much are told

15:20

I can take on players, especially the players

15:22

who are gone for weekends. Like you're , you're

15:24

missing third . Sometimes you miss Thursday, Friday

15:27

class. And it's like you're taking tests

15:29

in a hotel lobby. There's like

15:32

one of the assistant coaches is proctoring a test for you

15:34

and in a hotel lobby and I dunno

15:36

, somewhere random Austin, Texas. They're

15:39

in a hotel lobby and there's five

15:41

different guys taking every game the

15:43

next day, the next morning . It's

15:46

just, it's wow work

15:48

these guys put in for that is very

15:50

impressive and I think when you, when you really look at it, I mean

15:53

college sports, especially in football,

15:55

it's professional athletics is professional

15:57

sports at that point. I think that's why

15:59

the argument is has gained so much traction.

16:01

I think people are starting to realize that, hey, these

16:03

guys are going through the exact same

16:05

thing and bringing in the same amount of revenue,

16:08

if not more than what these professional athletes

16:10

are doing that are making millions

16:12

of dollars in their contracts. And how many hours do you think

16:15

that was per week? I mean it

16:17

was much more than a full time job. I remember talking

16:19

even to, this is funny story, my

16:21

, my best friend, he played the same position as

16:23

me, Cameron Walker. We

16:26

ended up calculating if you took

16:28

how much our scholarship was worth and

16:30

then how much would be paid hourly.

16:33

We calculated that out for so for the whole year , uh,

16:35

I think we ended up finding is like 67

16:38

cents. 67 cents. If

16:40

you looked at HR , California , it's like $11.

16:43

You exactly . You getting roasted. Yeah. That includes homework

16:45

though. So we included homework

16:47

but wow. Yeah . Crazy. 67

16:51

cents. Okay . You can't even get a candy

16:53

bar if you go back to when

16:55

I was in college, you still can't get a candy bar. Um

16:58

, you were going to say something man. Oh No, I was just saying

17:00

that's a great point there Caleb , is that you , we think

17:03

about the work these guys do it . It really is

17:05

more than a full time job for a lot of

17:08

these sports. And that's not to say this isn't just

17:10

for football either. We talk about how much money football, the

17:12

program athletes at every

17:14

single sport are putting in so much time.

17:18

[inaudible] the Lacrosse people, the crew people

17:20

that see, here's the thing and

17:22

we're gonna I'm going to start to move a little into the definition

17:25

of, I just want the person

17:27

who's listening to, to understand, you

17:29

know, from my point of view, and I remember being

17:32

in high school and

17:34

playing basketball. I played one

17:36

sport . I quit playing track, running track to focus on basketball,

17:39

but we would have like two a days. And so I had to be

17:41

at a school at whatever

17:44

was six 30 in the morning, then go

17:46

to around six and then go to school, go

17:48

to class. Then you practiced again,

17:50

and then you get home, you know, seven

17:52

30 or something like that and you're so

17:54

sore and you're so tired. I

17:57

remember one game, and I'm talking

17:59

about high school, I'm not talking about

18:01

a high school. I remember one game studying for my physics

18:03

test in the stands during the JV game,

18:06

like I'm in the stands. We had an away game.

18:09

And I'm like, okay, by the time

18:11

I get home it's gonna be 10 o'clock and

18:13

so I need to study now. I'm

18:15

sitting here and I think people understand that. Why

18:17

do I think all that's important? When

18:20

you look at leadership, there's a few things and

18:22

we're going to just sort of define leadership and kind of

18:24

go through this and you guys can add anything you want. When

18:26

you look at leadership, there's a variety

18:28

of characteristics that you have to develop.

18:31

One is the capacity to lose or fail.

18:34

Now , I've done that a lot, both in

18:36

the uh, um, the

18:39

startup realm in the

18:41

nonprofit realm and in the

18:43

spiritual realm I've done, I failed in all

18:45

the different realms. Um, and

18:47

I, sports teaches you

18:49

how to fail. Like nothing I've

18:51

ever seen in my life. Just, it teaches

18:54

you how to get back up, get back in there.

18:56

You talked about not winning a game the whole season that

18:58

does something to your mind, your heart, your

19:00

character. Um, I

19:03

think sports teaches you to lead by example

19:05

because you realize, I remember

19:07

I was, you know, I had a big mouth at a certain point

19:10

and I knew I had to shut it when I got on a

19:12

basketball court because it didn't matter how

19:14

much I could talk about. Uh, I

19:16

think sports teaches you also to

19:19

not be so consumed with being

19:21

liked because sometimes, you

19:23

know , you go to an away game and you got

19:25

people saying things to you that are just seriously,

19:27

I mean, seriously. You

19:29

know what I mean? If you want to know America, go

19:31

to a sporting event and be in an away game

19:33

and find out what you are capable of . See Walk, walked by

19:35

the student section. Yes. Yeah. People,

19:37

people look at what's going on now with the politics.

19:40

Hey, it's nothing. That's where you can

19:42

vent that , that's like, that's like normal. Um,

19:45

I think the willingness to do your job

19:47

and not have to get credit or not be the star.

19:51

Um, uh, the, the, the, the capacity

19:53

to learn how to be motivated by something

19:55

other than yourself. John McCain just died.

19:58

And playing for saying being yourself. So I think sports

20:00

teaches all that. And one of the things I think say

20:02

Facebook or Google or Linkedin,

20:05

they would really be benefited by looking around and saying how many,

20:07

how many people have had an , an athletic experience

20:09

including band? Cause you play in

20:11

a band when I, at least when I was in high school, you play in

20:13

a band, you're , you're doing a lot of work. I mean we'd be practicing

20:15

and they'd be practicing cause you could hear him

20:17

. Um, and, and,

20:20

and you're talking about all the , uh, Aster

20:23

College , the sports media people, all that they're

20:25

doing all their stuff. So part

20:27

of what I want to encourage out there as people to realize,

20:30

hey, if I have a kid, I don't have to have him play in

20:32

sports because they're going to be a star. Having planned

20:34

sports for the experience of learning how to work with others,

20:36

how to lead, how to have compassion, empathy

20:38

on others and bring people along with you. Uh , one

20:41

of the first things I want to talk about, I watched, I told

20:43

you guys earlier, the Pentagon

20:46

had a about five

20:48

coaches in , uh , to talk

20:50

about leadership. And so if we

20:52

didn't have any credibility on sports and leadership before,

20:54

this should give us tremendous credibility because

20:57

some of the coaches I picked out a few, Jim

20:59

Beyhive , Tom is , oh , Kevin Ollie , who's no longer

21:01

with Connecticut, but when a national championship there, that's

21:04

one of the mysteries of life that he got fired. Uh

21:06

, Tubby Smith and Jay Wright who

21:09

did Villanova just went in . I forgot to just want it. Uh,

21:11

yeah, Phil . No , we just want it to be right . Tarheels

21:14

right? Yeah. Yeah. Jay , right . Wanted

21:16

it, when did the GDS great coach and

21:18

these guys I picked out because they talked about

21:21

leadership in a way that I think we can talk about

21:23

defining the kind of leader you

21:25

are. And so the first one I probably say is

21:27

someone who's resilient. And Jim

21:30

Bahein said this, and I want to get you guys' thoughts on this

21:32

as far as the kind of character

21:34

sports builds into you and why that character

21:36

can be translated to politics, to corporations,

21:39

to nonprofit or for-profit Cetera. He

21:41

said, look, I'm leadership

21:44

because I don't know that's a, that's a tough subject.

21:46

But he goes, I'll tell you what, you really,

21:49

you really don't know who's a

21:51

leader until you started losing. And

21:53

he goes, we lost two games in a row and we were in trouble.

21:56

And he goes, what really impressed me about

21:58

my team was that every

22:00

guy stepped up and that leadership

22:02

when you're defeated is not about one guy.

22:05

It's about everybody stepping up and

22:07

doing something. And so one of the things I thought

22:09

that sports does a great job of teaching you is

22:12

how to handle failure and

22:14

not let yourself be defined as a loser to

22:16

continue to believe you can win and you can achieve.

22:19

And I was wondering, do you guys agree with that? Disagree

22:21

with that, that one of the main reasons to

22:23

be involved in sports as far as learning

22:25

how to lead is the ability to handle defeat

22:28

and loss and failure.

22:29

Yeah. I mean, the classic example, right,

22:31

is baseball, you know, you succeed

22:33

three out of 10 times and you're

22:36

one of the best players in

22:38

the league. All the fame player right there,

22:40

you know? So yeah. I think the component

22:43

of, of learning how to fill, learning how to embrace

22:45

failure and learning to let it compel

22:47

you, right. Instead of , uh

22:49

, you know, staying stuck in, in that, in

22:51

that failure, kind of like, Hey, what do we need to do different?

22:54

You know, every after every game I

22:56

played in college really in high

22:58

school, you know, the first meeting team

23:01

meeting will have, are we looking over film is what do

23:03

we not do? Right? Right. What do we need to do going

23:05

forward? And I think that brings a certain mindset

23:07

of it's, it's a growth mindset. You

23:09

know, that these athletes handle criticism maybe

23:11

better than the average person, I would

23:13

say. I mean , yeah, we

23:15

get a lot of, trust me, I, there was no lack of, of

23:17

being yelled at throughout my time playing football.

23:20

I can guarantee you that. So I

23:22

would say for sure. So there's this,

23:24

with an athlete, you're

23:26

handling failure. Every

23:28

practice, you're handling failure

23:31

constantly in the film room. And

23:33

so if you were to go into the workplace or

23:35

wherever and someone was correcting you,

23:37

it's not going to be as devastating to you as it might

23:39

be to one of those American idol people who goes into

23:41

American Ottawa. I always love watching them and

23:44

they're like, what do you mean I can't? Devastating. Yeah,

23:47

I didn't need lessons. I'm a natural [inaudible]

23:50

. You know what I mean? We'll just lose it . We

23:52

sit there and watch those people. When I'm like in insulin

23:54

, as I see people get really, you know, there's the big

23:56

thing about don't be negative, be positive,

23:58

which I'm all about being positive. But I think sometimes

24:01

if people had more experience in sports, they, because

24:03

of the sports you get told, hey, yeah,

24:06

okay. Uh , Johnny Dawkins was the coach at

24:09

Stanford for a while. Right. Okay . So

24:11

he , uh, this, this story fits in with this

24:14

idea of Lucy , so I can't remember the details,

24:16

but this is the story based on newspaper. Uh,

24:18

he was playing in high school basketball and I

24:20

think he had like 28 or 30 on a guy in the first half.

24:23

Right. And he ended up with like, I think 36,

24:26

and after the game they were crushing the team and after

24:28

the game, his dad pulled him aside. So what happened out there? He

24:30

goes, well, we one , nothing happened . He goes,

24:33

no, no, you , you, you, you only scored six, eight

24:35

points in the second half. Why didn't you score more? He

24:37

said, aw man, I was killing that kid. And I just felt so

24:39

bad for that kid. He was just killing him.

24:42

He goes , don't you ever do that again? His Dad

24:44

said, don't you ever do that again? You, you'd

24:46

need to , you hit him with everything

24:48

you've got. You score as many as you can. You've

24:50

got to have a killer instinct on this thing

24:53

and stop being sentimental after the

24:55

game. You walk up the kid, put your arm around him , say

24:57

great game, I would encourage you to choose another sport.

25:01

[inaudible] I read that story and I went, that's

25:03

athletics. And people go, oh, that's terrible.

25:06

But I think what it does is it builds the capacity

25:08

in you to think well of yourself

25:11

regardless of criticism, regardless

25:13

of what someone says. You just have

25:15

this internal thing you develop.

25:17

Yeah. I , I think one of the most important

25:20

things of , of any leader in

25:22

this context, and I've had , I've been fortunate enough to

25:24

get to know Chris Collins. Northwestern Basketball Coach

25:27

played under coach k for a long time coach

25:29

under him too. Um , so he's got a great relationship

25:32

with coach k and one of the things we, we,

25:34

I asked him last year on what makes coach

25:36

Capes such a great leader. What makes him the guy who's

25:38

there, the institution in college basketball.

25:41

And he said the thing coach Kay does,

25:43

he makes every single person in the room feel

25:45

like they're important and they're contributing to what they're doing

25:48

from the best player on the team, to the waterboy

25:50

to the trainer. Every single person

25:52

in the room has a role and he wants

25:54

them to feel like that role is absolutely

25:57

critical to the team's success. If the

25:59

waterboard is not on his game, the team will fail.

26:01

He wants the waterboy to feel like that. He wants

26:03

every single person to feel like their

26:05

role is absolutely vital. And

26:08

that's the kind of culture that Duke has built in

26:10

the last 30, 35 years that he's been

26:12

there. Um, that kind

26:14

of makes a winning institution and that's

26:16

how leaders are born. Chris Collins became a

26:18

leader because he got to Duke. He

26:20

learned that from coach k, he worked his

26:22

way up. Now he's a leader at a different program.

26:25

How many different coaches have come out of that program?

26:27

Love . That's what I love about.

26:29

It's because you said the water boy, right?

26:31

The water boy can be. I've got a friend Darrel

26:33

, how he , uh, he was , uh

26:35

, an actor and a Broadway actor and a television

26:38

actor in New York. Uh, and

26:40

uh , he, I , I'm a big Pete Maravich fan and

26:43

I was talking to him one day, cause you know, he's done a lot

26:45

of really cool things in entertainment and

26:48

he goes, oh, I was waterboy for the Appalachian State.

26:50

I go, what? He goes, yeah, press marriage.

26:53

Pete marriage . His Dad was the coach there while

26:55

I was there. And then Bobby Crimmins was a coach

26:57

there while I was there. And , and

26:59

I was the waterboy and so, and

27:01

I was like, okay, so here's this guy who's

27:04

done Broadway stuff that started

27:06

his water. Boy , I think people understand when you learn how to

27:08

be part of that cohesive team, it

27:10

really does something for you. And I know me, I wanted to

27:12

start all the time. I wanted to be a star and I wasn't.

27:15

But it taught me that

27:17

even if I'm not the star, I'm

27:20

really relevant, important. And so

27:22

this whole idea of the first element

27:25

we're talking about is really being resilient. Do you want to add some more

27:27

on that?

27:27

Yeah, I think that that's absolutely

27:29

critical too . And I think the point, the

27:31

fear, which one of you made it was that sports [inaudible]

27:34

that that's the kind of mentality you need and all

27:36

Wa works of life is, is that resilience

27:39

and that makes you so much better prepared for things going

27:41

forward. Um, and everyone fails

27:43

in sports and everything else. But especially in sports,

27:45

those failures get accentuated I

27:48

think a little bit more, especially if you make a

27:50

mistake in the game. I

27:52

mean, you hit the error that leads to

27:54

the walk off. You dropped the pass in the end zone.

27:57

I mean then you have that whole feeling

27:59

of not their whole teammate . You let everybody

28:01

down here for Michigan Against Michigan say

28:03

when he dad drops the ball to lose the game

28:06

kid ,

28:06

I put that kid's picture up on my Facebook,

28:09

well as my photo because I

28:11

was like, I know it, not that I was

28:13

ever there . I know exactly how you're feeling.

28:16

And it wouldn't surprise me if that kid turns around his present United

28:18

States or something because it's so phenomenal.

28:20

So let's move to the second one. So that first one is really

28:23

to be a leader, you need to be able to be resilient and nothing

28:25

teaches it like sports. And for a lot of people

28:27

out there who have a hard time hearing input , uh

28:30

, getting, getting a job evaluation,

28:33

I'll tell you what, all that gets easier if you're

28:35

coming up in high school or Middle School and

28:37

your coach is going, no , that's not how you do. You gotta do it this way and

28:39

then you have to run, you know, okay, I need you

28:41

to take some laps here and run. It's your inability

28:43

. That's straight accountability. Second

28:46

one is this, and I think this one was really interesting cause

28:48

I didn't, Tom is a coach from Michigan

28:50

state. When they asked him about leadership,

28:52

he said, look, he goes, I

28:55

really don't like when people talk about leading by

28:57

example. He goes, it drives me crazy. He

28:59

goes, I want to stick it where the sun doesn't shine.

29:01

That's what he said verbatim and he

29:03

said , uh, he goes, it's because I think lead

29:05

by example is a selfish way to go. Now

29:08

the context of what I understood you would begin with saying

29:10

is he was telling people to go, I'm going to go

29:12

set an example, but I'm not going to talk to anybody.

29:15

I'm not going to bring anybody else along. Cause he later on

29:17

when he goes, I think it really comes down

29:19

to leadership is more, [inaudible]

29:21

has become more I than

29:23

we in this generation and

29:25

he didn't mean age of people. He meant

29:27

society today that leadership's more

29:29

I than we, which goes down to what you're talking about really

29:31

early in the first session about people who are very

29:34

vocal and very loud in their leadership

29:36

and many times it can be about, I want to be seen,

29:39

I want to be noticed, I want to get credit.

29:41

He goes, really? He goes, it's really about bringing

29:43

others along. And I think

29:45

one of the elements here is, and I think I call

29:47

that collaborative. Someone might disagree, but

29:49

I think I've had to work on that because I grew up

29:51

in an era where top down leadership

29:54

almost hierarchical leadership was just what

29:56

it wall was and one of the things that's helped me

29:58

a lot as someone who's, you know,

30:00

a generation beyond you guys is

30:02

learning the power of

30:05

bringing other people along. Even like

30:07

in our podcast today, I

30:09

was really excited to hear your points

30:12

of view so I can hear

30:14

and listen. I almost wish the Senate

30:16

and Congress and the White House would invite

30:18

in people that are under 25

30:21

and say, tell us what you think about how

30:23

we do things and how we sound

30:26

and how we come across. I think they'd be in

30:28

for a shock, but what do

30:30

you think about this element of leadership that's more

30:32

about that we're leading, I'm going to read a file with these.

30:34

I said we're leading by example. Really the power

30:37

of that is bringing other people

30:39

along. What do you think about that in sports?

30:41

Yeah, I mean, I think when you look

30:43

at kind of the most successful

30:46

successful players and athletes, I

30:48

think they are, you know, bringing our

30:50

team along. And especially when we start defining , I

30:52

don't know, I know there's the whole, you know, Lebron,

30:55

you know, MJ argument that it's

30:57

so prevalent, careful, but

31:01

, uh, you know, I think goes into art . What , what

31:04

type of impact are you making other people, right ? You

31:06

can be, have the best personal

31:08

example in the world and be the best player in

31:10

the world, but if you're not bringing the people along

31:12

with you and yeah , then of that could like look

31:14

like winning championships, right? If

31:16

you're, if you're not bringing people along with you,

31:18

then what value are you really bringing

31:21

to the table? Um, so yeah, I , I

31:23

definitely have seen that play

31:25

in my life with, with sports. I mean,

31:28

even looking back, the example I shared earlier

31:30

, uh, you know, helping those guys

31:32

that were coming up that were, you

31:34

know, going to be on the varsity football team in the

31:37

years to come. You know, bringing those guys

31:39

as they started to almost following

31:41

that example that I was, I was starting to

31:43

, um, to kinda practice

31:46

out and live out for myself. Um,

31:48

that's where the real value comes right? When it's , it

31:50

becomes bigger than you and I'm leading

31:52

by example, but it's bigger than just me and I'm going

31:54

to bring other people along with me. It's about the leader's

31:56

role. I think as a teacher is the most

31:59

important. The leader has

32:01

to be able to teach the younger

32:03

players, or maybe it could

32:05

be even the similar age, but the more experienced guy

32:07

helping out the less experienced people, I think that's

32:09

the most important thing. Right? One

32:12

of the most important things being a leader. Yeah

32:14

. Um, cause that's kind of setting the

32:16

stage for the future. Yeah . These are the guys

32:18

who are going to be the next leaders. You want to make sure

32:21

that's how you build a program that's good for 30

32:23

35 years in any sport is

32:25

you have a culture where that's

32:27

what the senior leaders are doing is

32:29

they're teaching the younger players how to

32:31

be not just a good player but a

32:33

good teammate and eventually

32:35

a good future leader for other younger

32:37

players. That's kind of how you build that

32:40

cycle and then you can, you can have

32:42

sustained success for decades and decades.

32:44

John wouldn't winningest coach in all time

32:46

in college basketball history would

32:48

often say, I'm not a coach, I'm a teacher.

32:51

And I think his mentality was I'm a teacher,

32:53

that's what I am. And I think the best leaders really

32:56

do. At some point, I know I've come to this where

32:58

you sort of, you get older, you stop wanting

33:00

everybody to look at you or give you credit and you start

33:03

realizing no, it's empowering other people

33:05

that makes you really successful. And again,

33:07

I think that's one of the challenges for leaders today.

33:10

So the ISIL one is good, but Kevin

33:12

Ali said something very interesting and it took me a while to understand

33:15

him , so I'm not even going to tell you what I think about it.

33:17

I'm going to just put it out there. And he

33:19

said to me, leadership

33:21

is a question of am I liked

33:24

or am I respected? How

33:27

does that land with you guys? Am I liked

33:29

or am I respected? And he said, I want

33:31

to be respected.

33:32

Yeah. Yeah. I mean sometimes

33:35

you probably noticed that too. And some coaches, rope players

33:37

the wrong way. That happens a lot. Um,

33:39

and that doesn't necessarily make

33:41

him a bad coach. If the players are like, this

33:43

guy is on my back again, I have to work

33:46

extra hard. I can't believe he's making me come in

33:48

for extra workouts or pushing me extra hard.

33:50

I mean, some for some players that works. I

33:52

think it's about knowing your team though. And that's the most important

33:54

thing. Wow . Players are code , different

33:56

teams, different systems, different players are

33:59

all coach different . I think the best coaches, the best

34:01

leaders are ones who can kind of

34:03

figure out what works best for those players.

34:06

And then adapt. You don't have, if you have one

34:08

policy or one system and you set

34:10

that out for every single person who walks in that door,

34:13

you're going to send some people away and you

34:15

might rough rubs people the wrong way and you may

34:18

end up with a little bit of a sort of discord. Yeah

34:20

, some friction. I think great

34:22

leaders, they have expectations. So

34:25

having expectations is , is bigger than,

34:27

than being liked. You can be the most liked

34:29

a player, coach, whatever you may be in

34:32

the world, but if you don't have expectations

34:34

right, what are you really contributing to the team?

34:37

Um , I , I look at that as kind of, you know,

34:39

being willing to go to your comfort zone, right?

34:41

The growth, the real growth is going to be made out of your comfort zone.

34:44

If that expectation is out of that comfort zone,

34:46

you're not going to like it a lot of times. You

34:48

know, a lot of the times and I think if you're,

34:51

you're willing to dumb down your expectations

34:54

to be liked. Yeah. At that point, you

34:56

know, you're, you're um, you're

34:58

lowering down your expectations, which at the

35:01

end of the day is not helping anybody. If your goal, you have a civic

35:03

goal for the team and you know, the expectation

35:05

is, is what's gonna get that goal at

35:08

that point at your , you're not doing the whole team

35:10

justice. Well

35:10

you guys are drawing me into something that is interesting.

35:13

You're making me think that a great coach

35:15

then is if I combine with both of you are saying

35:17

a great coach better be an effective recruiter

35:20

so you better know what kind of, what kind of program

35:22

do I have and what kind of kid

35:24

do I need? Because if you have to pound

35:26

that kid, then you probably are recruiting

35:28

the wrong kid because if you've got to always

35:31

be on his case, meaning there

35:33

should be the complete capable one. I think in football

35:35

this position coaches are probably closer to people, the

35:37

head coach anyway . Right? But basketball's

35:40

a little different, although it's getting them a little bit more,

35:43

I think authentic defensive coordinator

35:45

is specialist in basketball. Yeah.

35:47

But , um, I, it's funny because

35:50

when I grew up , um,

35:53

you, there was much more respect for leadership in general.

35:56

Like the coach was like it and we

35:58

, we there like today I

36:00

see, you know, AAU basketball, like

36:02

I go, what is that? I don't even recognize

36:05

that. Cause when I grew up it was like,

36:07

okay, here's your system and

36:09

you fit into this system and

36:11

if you don't fit on the end of the system, you're

36:15

gonna fit on the bench or fit , fit in the stands

36:17

somewhere else. And I think that that's changed

36:19

a lot. Where even with with coach k

36:22

who used to be under Bobby Knight, I

36:24

think he's gone with the one and dones more to

36:26

me. He's changed his system a little bit, which

36:28

goes to your point, Matt, I recognizing

36:31

not only the players, but the times you live

36:33

in and being able to say, yeah, I

36:35

want to teach these guys, but what do

36:37

I need to do to be able to facilitate

36:39

them learning better? Uh, so that sounds

36:41

like one. Here's tubby. Smith said, look,

36:44

I grew up on a farm and basically

36:46

my dad told me it all comes down

36:48

to doing your job. That's it. That's

36:50

where he is . I couldn't, I couldn't completely

36:53

understand what he was talking about, but he said to me, leadership

36:55

is you do your job. What do you guys think about that one?

36:57

I mean, it's embracing your role. I mean, you

36:59

look at it, you look at a team. I mean, there's

37:02

no same role on a team. You

37:04

look at a basketball team, there's five distinctive

37:08

Ros . You know, if, let's say you have

37:11

Stephan curry starting to be play

37:13

dream mom's role, you know, and starting to

37:15

get , uh , get the key and start

37:17

rebounding, right? I mean, what are you doing

37:19

man? We all know , we all know

37:21

mean that's not what he does. Yeah . Three point lines.

37:23

Exactly. You know, get, get far beyond that line

37:26

and do your thing. So , uh, I mean, I

37:28

think effective teams and effective

37:30

leaders recognize that, you know , they recognize that the

37:32

best way I contribute to a team is honing

37:34

my craft, which is my civic role. Ah,

37:37

yeah .

37:38

Example, think about a guy like Andre Iguodala, right? It's

37:41

[inaudible] game with Philadelphia

37:43

like five, six years ago and now he's

37:46

coming off the bench. He's a defensive

37:48

specialist. He's kind of a ball distributor.

37:50

Like you have to adjust your role to the tee

37:52

. He knows his role now and that's what made

37:54

him such a key component of those championship

37:57

teams is he knows I'm not going to go out there

37:59

and try to score 20 points a game and put up all star

38:01

numbers. I'm going to go out there. I'm gonna fit into

38:03

my role on this team and help this team

38:05

win.

38:05

That's cool. Cause he

38:08

talk about them winning their first championship. Right. He won finals MVP

38:10

cause he like defended Lebron. Right. And for

38:13

a stint , everyone who got finals MVP was

38:15

the person who defended the prize . But

38:18

like he, I remember reading an article about he

38:20

was the player's coach. Like he was Steve

38:22

Kerr's extension to the team on the court. He embraced,

38:25

yeah. On the court. He embraced that role of leadership

38:27

as kind of submitting himself

38:29

to like, to as defined role to help

38:31

everybody succeed. And he was rewarded for that, which was really

38:33

cool. And I think that echoes too , cause I think there's a sense

38:36

of humility that comes along with that to,

38:38

to embrace a role that you normally wouldn't have taken

38:41

in the years past. Wow. In order to

38:43

, uh, you know, inspire

38:45

the fact that I'm , I'm willing to take this role even though I

38:48

may not be what I want may not be what I've done in

38:50

the past.

38:50

All right . I'm going to hit you guys with , uh , we're gonna , we're , we're gonna

38:53

close out. I'm gonna you get some, some questions. I want you to prepare

38:55

yourself emotionally, mentally, spiritually, physically.

38:57

Do it. Transcend, transcend

38:59

the moment. Okay. So we talked

39:01

all about sports and leadership and

39:04

I'm going to give you a couple, maybe

39:06

I'll go for more, but I'm going to give you a couple of situations

39:09

and say, knowing what you guys

39:11

know about athletes in college, knowing what you know about

39:13

sports and how it provides leadership, tell

39:16

me right now, what

39:18

are the football players at Maryland doing to

39:20

handle all they're going through?

39:23

Good question . Good

39:26

question. Good question.

39:28

I mean, I think there's,

39:30

when you have off the field stuff, I think

39:34

that that's gonna you know, have

39:36

a larger effect in the program, you know, no matter who

39:38

you are within the program, right. Um,

39:41

you know, in terms of, I

39:43

know that there are certain sense of kind of isolating

39:45

right on the field stuff with , with off

39:48

the field stuff. And, and I wouldn't even

39:50

say personal lives. I mean, I think

39:52

when you're difficult, is it for an 18,

39:54

1920 year old to be watching?

39:57

Well, I don't know that they're watching, but to know you're

39:59

on the news. No , there's investigations

40:01

going on, but then you go out there to play football. I

40:03

washed the ESPN highlighted them interviewing

40:06

the coach right after the , the, the interim

40:08

coach and I was Wa I didn't even pay attention

40:10

to the coach. I was watching all those players

40:12

play and I'm going, these guys are 17, 18,

40:14

1920. They had nothing to

40:16

do with anything. They just saw one of their teammates

40:19

die. And I'm not into accusing anybody of anything,

40:21

raking a judgement . I'm just saying they just watched

40:23

their teammate die and now they're back out

40:25

here playing football. Yeah . What in the world

40:27

does it take?

40:28

Yeah. To manage all that.

40:30

Yeah. I mean I can even speak to that. One of my

40:33

teammates, you know, if you're from an area , uh

40:35

, Teddy Goo passed away in 2014

40:37

, um , that was the first year

40:39

of the coaching staff that, that

40:41

I had for the whole time. My , my

40:43

10 year cow. But , uh, I

40:46

can say, I mean that, I mean, it echoes

40:48

throughout, like I said, the whole , the whole program

40:50

to have, I mean, it started going

40:52

to questions of, you know, what,

40:55

to what extent is it worth it, you

40:57

know, winning on the field. Um, I

40:59

know for me, Ted was actually in my,

41:01

so we split the whole team up into

41:04

seven or eight teams a summer

41:06

competition for our off season program. Yeah.

41:08

And Ted was in my group, so

41:11

we had an off season , uh , conditioning

41:13

workout and to

41:15

have been right next to him seeing,

41:18

you know, one of your good friends , uh,

41:22

you know, pass out and, and

41:24

you know, ultimately what happened. I mean,

41:27

seeing him pass away on the spot in front

41:29

of you. It, I think it rocks everything.

41:31

You know, what is, what does it really worth? What's,

41:33

what's our goal

41:34

here? You know, what's our goal in,

41:36

in terms of how far you're willing to go to

41:38

push ourselves to, to win games.

41:41

And I think that goes to the whole nother conversation

41:43

of the amount of pressure that's on these coaches

41:46

for administration. Um, you know, being

41:48

these revenue generators for the universities,

41:50

right ? I mean the pressure comes

41:52

all the way down, you know, from administration

41:55

to coaches to the players. And it

41:57

can be tough. I mean it's just, it's hard.

41:59

The loss of life. Yeah . It's , it's

42:01

also, it just shows you these

42:04

kids that are playing sports or doing a whole lot more

42:07

than, than other people. Matt, what do

42:09

you think about this?

42:10

So I, I come into this from the media perspective. What,

42:12

whenever the players in Maryland are asked

42:14

about this now, now I haven't watched the latest press conference,

42:16

but I'm pretty sure the way these are only

42:19

go is they say we're really sorry,

42:22

like we are sympathies go out to the family.

42:24

Um , but now it's back to business here. We're trying

42:27

just to focus on our game. But I

42:29

mean just as a human watching that you kind of

42:31

know there's , that's not true. That's still weighing

42:33

on these players . It has to be, right . I'm like

42:35

you were saying because the emotional impact of that

42:38

goes well beyond football. And I think

42:40

it's about recognizing that yeah, they're going

42:42

to make a statement that says, yes,

42:45

we're just going to try to get back to football, you know, try

42:47

and get back to our back to work here. Um,

42:49

but you know, you know, that emotional

42:52

impact is still there and it might

42:54

be there for a long time. I'd be there for life for some of

42:56

these players who are in a similar situation

42:58

like we've mentioned know it's easy

43:00

to often blame the coaches, but I think to

43:03

the point I was making earlier, I mean, there's so much pressure on

43:05

these programs, you know, to

43:07

do well and to succeed. I think it's, it's

43:09

really a more systematic issue of

43:11

what we're seeing with college sports and how

43:14

much pressure is put on the entire program.

43:16

Well,

43:16

I think about that. You know, when I was young

43:19

, uh, you know, we had different things happen to

43:21

kids in school. Um, there's

43:24

a, there's a leadership I

43:26

think on these teams. They're seniors

43:28

oftentimes that step in and help

43:30

other kids manage it. I think, again,

43:33

in a sense what I'm saying is sports

43:35

is a microcosm of life and

43:37

these kids that play sports get

43:39

a dose of life. I think I

43:41

, at least in college, greater than the average

43:44

student does. I'm not saying other students aren't

43:46

going off and inventing Google and all that and facing

43:48

their own stress, but there's this ecosystem

43:50

of the pressure from the top, the experience

43:53

of parents having a girlfriend. Sometimes when

43:55

teams play badly, I often go,

43:57

I want , they got , you know, this receiver

43:59

is getting half the yard as you got. I go, I wonder

44:01

if his girlfriend broke up with him last night. Like

44:04

I remember I just go, these are kids,

44:06

you know, and they're shouldering so much weight that

44:08

I have so much compassion on them and the kids at Ohio

44:10

state because a lot of them are involved in

44:12

stuff that is big,

44:14

big time stuff, but they maybe had nothing

44:17

to do with or weren't involved at an at , at all.

44:19

Um, uh , two more things. I'll go for two more.

44:22

Um, so when, when it comes down to players

44:24

being paid, do you guys think players

44:27

should be paid or do you think they should not be paid?

44:29

Their scholarship is enough. Oh,

44:31

absolutely. I'm

44:32

a pain . I mentioned this earlier that they should get

44:34

something now. It's a little, it's

44:36

a little more complicated than just saying, write

44:38

the checks. Right now there's a, there's

44:40

a question of how does this work, right? And

44:43

that there's a lot of questions to be answered there. I don't have all the answers.

44:46

Um, but I think the answer to is this,

44:48

cause this is too complicated. How does this work? I

44:50

don't know. Let's give up, let's not pay them anything is not

44:52

the right answer. Yeah. I think the right

44:54

answer is trying to work out something. It's

44:56

a little complicated. It's actually very complicated,

44:59

right? You pay every player the same. Do you play

45:01

every player at every sport the same, right ? Do

45:03

you play, do you pay? How much do you

45:05

pay per year? You pay freshman differently

45:07

than sophomores. You play the starters

45:09

more than the backups. I don't know.

45:11

I don't know how that works.

45:12

You're just saying, look, this is a multibillion

45:15

dollar industry, right ?

45:16

Something's got to happen here. People come on.

45:19

Yeah, something has to happen here. And

45:21

an answer is not zero.

45:22

And I think they've got to look at it as an investment

45:24

in leadership. I think our country needs leadership.

45:26

I think we need leadership on all levels. The neighborhoods

45:28

, uh , community centers , uh

45:31

, schools. I mean, teachers, I would love

45:33

to see there be in all colleges

45:35

that have, you know, division one athletics as

45:37

like a sports major, a program you

45:39

enter into. If you don't want to do one of the others and

45:41

you just learn when you come out. I can either be a coach,

45:43

a teacher, a sports

45:45

agent or whatever, and you just channeled

45:48

right into that. It may not be as complicated as the MBA

45:50

program, that something where they can go,

45:52

I actually am using

45:55

my experience to get me a

45:57

job. Uh, what were you thinking about

45:59

paying paid?

46:00

Uh , yes. Thank you. It's a definite yes.

46:02

I mean, it gets very muddy though, you

46:05

know, when you have different , you have walk

46:07

ons, you know, then do you pay the walk-ons as

46:09

well? Then you have your starting quarterbacks. And

46:11

then what about the guy who

46:13

comes in, you know, playing

46:16

gravity watchers has important, but it's not the quarterback

46:18

and you know, and you look at how the NFL

46:20

is pays players, obviously the quarterbacks are paid the most.

46:22

So I think it's a , it's a very, very

46:25

muddy situation when it comes down to how

46:27

you do it, don't you ? Yes .

46:29

This is funny. And I love Google. It's one of my favorite

46:31

companies, right? But those guys were , uh

46:33

, graduate students, right? And

46:36

they were able to start a company and

46:38

they were able to negotiate their own deals and

46:40

their own venture. Like, I think

46:42

it's funny that they can do that. And I understand

46:45

players, there's a ton of them, but they can

46:47

do that and that, let's say

46:49

a quarterback at Michigan, you know,

46:51

Shay Patterson, he, his number two is gonna

46:53

be big. I can tell you that right now. And if he plays

46:56

well tomorrow I this can be flying off the shelves.

46:58

Yup . Why can't he go out and negotiate

47:01

and say, Hey, I'm flat out, got

47:03

my number being used and I'm

47:05

, I'm going to get this money for this. And I understand that's

47:07

the complexity you're talking about. Then it gets crazy

47:10

and all that, but I just think it's a

47:12

funny thing that a tennis player,

47:14

a person with a startup can do so

47:16

many things that football or basketball

47:19

player can't do.

47:20

And honestly I think that's the next step. Of course

47:22

, paying players, I think that's going to be the next thing we see

47:24

is players getting some kind of royalty , some kind

47:26

of, some kind of percentage of the profits

47:29

of the, the jerseys

47:30

sold with their number. They'll sell or they're selling

47:32

their name on a tee shirt or something. I

47:34

think that's going to be the next step. When you see the star players

47:37

start to see some of that money come in and

47:39

then maybe after that the flood gates open and then

47:41

we see the left tackle, get the pay he deserves and we

47:43

see the defensive back on the soccer

47:45

team get the pay and you can't stop me from

47:47

moving my youtube channel. Like an athlete a while back.

47:50

Yeah you're slapped shutting down his youtube channel. I'm like guy

47:53

sells his Jersey to a fan and then you get

47:55

suspended for 40 that's the whole house state back

47:57

in the day. Oh hey well that's the whole

47:59

tattoo thing. And there are people going crazy

48:01

cause they got five games suspensions for

48:03

selling for it's three. That's

48:06

what rough to, it's all, it's all really rough. I

48:09

agree with you guys cause it's like I

48:11

was in the kinesiology building and like

48:13

I would, I would have the same classes as a

48:15

lot of the athletes and so I would leave and go to the parking

48:17

lot to go get my car and go drive off to work. And

48:19

they're going down to the field. I'm like, and I remember

48:21

thinking this on my way to my car. I'm like, well I'm thinking I'm

48:23

going to get paid for work. I don't

48:25

think they're just , they're taking a right down to the

48:27

field. I'm taking a left to the parking garage. Like they

48:30

have to get paid something. You know, and again,

48:32

it is a complicated issue, but you have to

48:34

start somewhere cause these guys are, you

48:36

kind of catered , you kind of mapped up an athlete's

48:39

Day. Like it starts at six, it doesn't end

48:41

till like eight you know, that's an insane amount of hours.

48:43

And again, there'd be people who will say, but they're getting $100,000

48:46

or $60,000 a year for

48:48

an education and other people are not getting

48:50

that. So they're getting paid. And I don't want to , I mean I

48:53

don't agree with that perspective, but

48:55

I think there's, there's an argument to be made,

48:57

which is why Mac keeps saying it's complicated too

49:00

. I mean a lot of these guys that have these scholarships,

49:03

not like better cost equates to graduation.

49:05

I think that's a key distinction as well. You know,

49:08

I've , I've plenty of friends who haven't

49:10

graduated with a full scholarship

49:12

and I think that's another component

49:14

of whether it be saying, hey,

49:16

you have a certain timeframe to finish your degree.

49:19

Cause I mean when you look at trying to, especially

49:21

at a place like Berkeley or Stanford, Northwestern

49:23

now the amount of rigor academically

49:26

while playing football, I think for some

49:28

people in their circumstances guaranteed

49:32

are like 10 years commonly. I've seen

49:34

people not graduating and then

49:37

because part of it, part of what I think is, is that schools

49:39

are making more money than just slip on. I understand

49:41

that the cows and the Northwestern and the Stanford , you're not

49:43

making the kind of money that the Alabama and

49:46

I get all that. But um,

49:48

part of it is too , people

49:50

turn on television and they watch

49:52

you in a row. Bull came and all

49:55

of a sudden 100,000 kids apply to

49:57

your school. I mean there's a whole

49:59

lot more going on here. And then alumni

50:01

get involved calculable

50:03

like me as a regular student, I

50:05

don't bring that much value to that school versus

50:08

the athletes that they bring out a measurable

50:10

amount of value to the campus, to the school,

50:12

to when they open it up. In other words,

50:14

you see, I went to the elite eight game once

50:17

a Memphis was playing, I just happened, I wasn't

50:19

there to watch Memphis particularly, but at

50:21

Memphis to me didn't seem like a big deal school.

50:24

Right . To me personally. And I looked down

50:26

there and, and all these fans,

50:28

people that looked like they were in their eighties, seventies

50:32

grandchildren, children. And I went,

50:34

what happens is when you see a school

50:36

play, you see their community, you

50:38

see Evanston, you see Berkeley, you see

50:41

Anarbor , you know, you see the city of Boston and it

50:43

makes you for the first time go, oh,

50:46

I'm a go. They're like, I guarantee you Stanford's

50:48

applications increased by a lot

50:50

when they started appearing , uh, on in

50:52

bowl games and winning ballgames . I'll guarantee you

50:55

when Pat Fitzgerald got there and Northwestern really started

50:57

cranking up in the basketball team, looks better that

50:59

suddenly there are kids who are like, hey, maybe I want to go to Northwestern.

51:02

I didn't know what it was. Um, so

51:04

today we've gone through a lot on leadership,

51:06

a lot on sports and we're going to kind of close it down

51:09

and just Kinda , I'm going to let these get at

51:11

one. I want to thank David for connecting

51:13

us with Matt and a boy. Matt

51:15

. It's uh , it's been fun. It's been great. It's

51:17

been fun to talk with you. I could talk with you for about

51:19

six more hours cause I got , I, I

51:22

would love to hear more stories about McDonald's

51:24

and then sneaking in there. Uh, and Caleb,

51:26

even though I've known you, I haven't known that much about

51:28

you. So it's, it's exciting. I hope we can get both of you guys

51:31

on it again and everybody out there. The reason

51:33

we wanted to talk about sports culture and leadership

51:35

is, or I think I drove

51:37

this, is that I just think a lot

51:39

of people have stereotypes about athletes.

51:41

And stereotypes about sports that aren't really

51:43

accurate. And as I alluded to in the talk

51:46

, go up, go look up , um,

51:48

Senator Bradley, and he's just one example

51:51

of I think hundreds, if not thousands

51:54

of people who played sports

51:56

and through the experience of sports became

51:58

really great contributors for leadership in our

52:00

country. Thanks again for listening, and

52:02

we'll be back next week with another episode of leads

52:04

.

52:04

Yeah .