0:00

Scott McClelland: Have you ever thought God would operate one way and then been confused when

0:06

you're starry eyed idealism was reset by reality.

0:11

I have. That's just one thing we're going to talk about today.

0:16

If that's you you'll want to stick around for leaders.

0:19

Moment episode 2, 3, 3.

0:24

Welcome to leaders moment by FX missions podcasting.

0:29

We encourage you to take a moment to sharpen the saw of your leadership perspective and performance.

0:35

We're bringing you interviews and stories of leaders, much like yourself who are taking action,

0:41

learning, realizing potential, and getting results.

0:49

Welcome to the leaders moment. From FX missions, podcasting want to do a little housekeeping here and let you know that we're featuring a new longer format

1:01

and we're releasing once a month on the 15th, basically.

1:05

Feedback from folks like you.

1:08

We want to do what we can to create continuity in the story.

1:12

If you want to know all the reasons and, uh, do a deep dive on that.

1:16

If you would check back to our special episode on this subject episode 2 32, we appreciate that your feedback

1:25

is important to us, and please do keep it coming.

1:27

We want to make this show value.

1:31

Impactful and have a contribution with it to your life.

1:35

So let me know what you think we can do to do better.

1:40

You can reach me by [email protected] today.

1:46

Josh Barlow, why should we listen to Josh?

1:49

Well, he's been in business around 20 years.

1:52

Those details in the podcast. He's a man of faith.

1:55

He's followed, uh, the Lord through some really good times.

2:01

And through some really lean times, he's a good friend and I met him some years ago.

2:07

Hit it off with him right away. When you get back to him on the episode, you should ask him about his singing voice.

2:13

I think he's got perfect pitch, even though he denies it.

2:17

What happens when God surprises you and you discover he's operating differently than you expected that he.

2:26

What role can a spouse play in resilience?

2:30

Those things are coming up on the podcast.

2:32

Also what push Josh away from operating in wisdom and how God got him back, all of that and more on today's leaders moment.

2:47

Hi, Josh. Welcome. Welcome.

2:50

Welcome. Thank you for being here. Yeah.

2:54

I'm happy that you didn't disappoint a friend of a friend

2:58

Josh Barlow: and he would've changed me down out of it. Yeah,

3:01

Scott McClelland: yeah. Yeah. Yuri would have said, man, I was waiting on that episode.

3:05

Anyway, of course, Yuri, uh, no St who were referring to a friend of ours and how we know each other.

3:11

I guess it's been a few years since we met though.

3:14

Like, can we count back? I don't know.

3:16

Josh Barlow: Maybe I think it's around URIs, bachelor party in the mountains, or we played poker all night.

3:22

I think that, Scott McClelland: that was it.

3:27

And that was maybe 10 years ago? No, probably about that.

3:30

Yeah. Something like that. So yeah, of course I became familiar with your business through URI.

3:35

Along that time may be a little bit earlier.

3:40

Been on your team at some different levels through the years, but what business are you guys in?

3:47

We're Josh Barlow: primarily in the, it's like a custom coding space.

3:50

We like to get involved with larger organizations that they need software, but they don't know how to create it themselves.

3:57

And their internal teams are more focused on support of existing soft.

4:01

And they have very limited resources to build new stuff.

4:04

So we'll get involved and determine where their custom software needs are and build stuff for them,

4:08

whether it's typically web technology, applications, websites, marketing sites, whatever they need.

4:16

So that's the primary thing that we do that makes money. And then we're also trying to build some of our own applications because we'd like to do our own stuff,

4:22

but that takes a lot longer to get off the ground.

4:25

But yeah, that's. Scott McClelland: Awesome.

4:27

You know, I don't know a ton about your industry.

4:30

I don't code. I have a, I'm close enough to coding to have a respect for it.

4:35

I got to say that it's a guessing evolving industry.

4:40

Always. What are you coding again?

4:43

I'm coding in Jaison or I'm coding

4:46

Josh Barlow: JavaScript or a, yeah, that's a tricky question.

4:50

So we deal with a bunch of different languages or.

4:54

Types typically, because we do stuff online.

4:58

Then we focus on the web languages. So there's the HTML, markup and CSS markup, and then JavaScript.

5:04

And then when we talk to databases, we're in CQL.

5:07

And when we're dealing with the backend servers wherein C-sharp or vb.net, occasionally we do things in PHP.

5:15

Uh, we've done stuff in cold. Phew. But primarily C-sharp, uh, for the backend stuff.

5:21

So there's, there's a lot of different markets and a lot of different languages that we're switching back and forth.

5:24

Scott McClelland: I'm getting an education here. Josh Barlow: I can spend hours talking about the nerd dumb data.

5:32

Scott McClelland: I like the nerdom personally, I'm a next door neighbor, nerd of a different kind

5:36

of course, but aren't we all these days, but it's really cool to hear a little bit about your business.

5:41

I remember, you know, I remember your team and you know, the guys you had worked in some of the stuff you guys were working on.

5:47

Did you get into this business? On the website.

5:51

I think I know that you've got in to the business developing for websites, but I'm not super sure about that.

5:57

Like Josh Barlow: kind of like why, where I started when I started years ago.

6:02

I just wanted my own business. I just had a hankering to, I mean, it's kind of a long story.

6:06

I can get into it at some point, but I did want to do programming stuff.

6:09

I did want to deal with stuff more on the web.

6:12

I did put my time and effort and energy into getting some clients and groups that needed that particular,

6:18

particular skillset and lined up clients that don't have enough to feed my family, you know, and get things going.

6:24

So it was a rough start in the first few years, but, you know, built it enough to at least be able to have a lifestyle business.

6:30

That's kind of what we have. Yeah. Scott McClelland: Yeah.

6:32

Makes sense. Makes sense. Did you start out and, you know, again, my limited knowledge, I'll betray my ignorance again and again, and

6:40

this time let's find, did you start where you developing front ends for websites or what, where were you.

6:47

Uh, Josh Barlow: developing them the top all the way down to the bottom.

6:50

So I have a full stack developer.

6:52

I'll be able to take it from the client's vision all the way to the backside, to the data, to make sure everything

6:57

is done in between correctly, whether I'm doing it myself or having someone else do a different part of it.

7:03

Cool. Scott McClelland: I'm so well-versed in websites that I can get aside and go.

7:08

With a WordPress template. It's sad, but Hey, you got to focus, right?

7:18

You don't have unlimited. Josh Barlow: You can't do everything.

7:20

Yeah. You Scott McClelland: can't do everything. You gotta be good at something.

7:22

And I, that's not what I'm good at, but I'm happy to at least have checked that off on my resume.

7:28

Josh Barlow: It's respectable. If you, if you can get a WordPress site up and get the plugins going and make it look right, I mean, that's.

7:35

Scott McClelland: I'm going to just say I got it going.

7:37

That's a, that'd be embedding any, uh, excellence I'm going to avoid, but tell us a little

7:43

bit about the faith aspect of your business.

7:46

I know for anybody who's been in business more than five years.

7:50

You know, more than 10 years, I guess you guys have been where you been going 10, 15 years now.

7:54

Josh Barlow: Cheeser. We're at 1819 now.

7:57

Wow. Scott McClelland: That's awesome, man.

8:00

That is awesome. Well, we're, we're getting younger by the day here.

8:03

It sounds like we're, we're celebrating 20 this year.

8:06

Next month. We're celebrating 20 years.

8:09

So I think as believers in business, we are going to run in.

8:12

At some point you run into rough water, you run into unexpected outcomes.

8:17

You run into. Incomes.

8:20

I don't know yet. There's a lot going on there.

8:23

And so kind of our Josh Barlow: core idea

8:26

Scott McClelland: of, for this particular series is to kind of unpack how faith has informed your walk as a business person.

8:36

That's kind of what we want to get into. You may want to talk about some of the business challenges you've had or things that have happened, but in those number of years,

8:46

there've been some things you didn't expect or didn't see county.

8:49

So you could pick from the list maybe there, but just curious as to how faith has informed generally your approach to business.

8:58

And maybe we could dig in from there to one particular example or.

9:03

Josh Barlow: Yeah, I have positive and negative memories of different situations.

9:08

Sometimes my faith, I feel really helped as far as I'm a Bible-believing Christian.

9:13

I pray, I asked the Lord for guidance and I do believe that he speaks in answers, but I've seen varying mileage

9:20

off of that based on how I grew up and what I learned.

9:24

About the Lord. You'd expect God to operate one way.

9:26

And then a lot of times the thing about businesses, it's like the rubber meets the road with business.

9:30

You can have all kinds of flowery ideas are about how, the way God works and things like that.

9:35

But then when it comes down to, you got to feed your family, then it's like, well, you know, platitudes don't help.

9:41

I need to be able to make money here. So it's a very interesting balance.

9:45

And I've, I have seen what I believe is God come through.

9:48

Sometimes that in ways I could not have come.

9:51

Things that I believe that I saw him doing get involved and other times that I didn't see him get involved and I had to

9:57

learn very difficult lessons about in my mind, um, what I say over idealizing, how I expected God to operate with me.

10:06

So I've been on both sides of it. It's um, it's not always one way

10:11

Scott McClelland: for sure. Yeah. I think as you mentioned there, can you begin in life and in business?

10:19

And not be idealistic. I don't know.

10:23

I'm thinking about my own self here, you know, so I think I started out fairly, as you're saying.

10:29

I was idealistic and the way I expected things to happen, of course, being a believer at a

10:34

young age and having some ideas there about that.

10:37

Josh Barlow: There's definitely a lot of idealism there. I mean, you gotta be a little starry eyed, rose colored glasses in order to even start a business.

10:44

You know, it's like, I mean, it's the intentional and willful disregard of the fact

10:48

that you could completely fall on your face. And fail that you have to be able to grasp and say, yes, I'm going to go after this.

10:54

And I'm going to be willing to ignore the fact that this all might fail in order to do it.

11:00

You have to be real about it. And I do credit my wife a lot of times for being very realistic and saying, well, this might not work,

11:06

but we're going to, you know, let's do it anyway. And she supported me in it and that's good because if I didn't have her support, I wouldn't have done it.

11:12

I mean, flat out for sure, for sure.

11:14

Dragging her through. Yeah, but she was, she was very, very into it.

11:19

Her parents had a business as well, so she had positive experiences with it.

11:23

And then that really helped that Scott McClelland: I think is a plus.

11:26

I mean, I was like you say, rose colored starry-eyed I think I had a, I mean, we are not here on pack in my

11:34

story, but just to your point, I really had a sense that.

11:40

I've got the talent and resources in terms of energy or whatever.

11:43

And, uh, and I think I can get something at least get some traction, you know, and see

11:49

what happens that certainly describes my path.

11:52

Can you tell us about a time when something happened?

11:55

Kind of as expected from the faith cycle, you know, like, okay.

12:00

You feel like your lead, you feel like you understand and hear what you're being told to.

12:06

Do you take those steps and then the outcome was predictable.

12:11

I mean, is there something that comes to mind for that?

12:13

Cause I want to go the other way next. Josh Barlow: Yeah, no, that's fine.

12:16

On the positive side of things, that's what you're asking for one of the positive stories.

12:20

I mean, that was starting the business.

12:22

I remember, um, what ended up happening.

12:24

I was working in an it department at a small Christian college, not Judson college.

12:29

I was working there and the Dean had asked me to get a master's degree because he said I'd be a great teacher there.

12:36

So I'm like, great, cool. I've thought about that.

12:38

Let's go get a master's degree. And so it took me a couple of years.

12:42

To go do it because I thought this would be a really cool future business thing.

12:46

And after I completed the master's degree, I went back to the Dean and like, Hey, you know, it's done ready.

12:51

And he's like, no, there's not enough students in the computer science department to support another person here.

12:58

You know, we can't bring you on right now. And I'm like, well, I got this master's degree.

13:01

What the heck am I going to do with it? So I ended up praying and really kind of felt like I should start a business, but I was.

13:06

Picky about it. I'm like, I really kind of laid out a fleece before the Lord.

13:09

I'm like, Lord, I want to do this, but I need like six months of work.

13:12

And I don't know how to advertise for this. I don't know what to do.

13:16

I really am going to need your help in order to show me if I can step out and do this.

13:20

And so within, you know, next to.

13:23

Next to a few weeks. I started getting people coming to me that never happened before offering me projects and jobs.

13:30

I specifically remember one, someone came to me and said, Hey, you know, this one guy wants a website.

13:35

He's not going to pay any more than $10,000 for this website.

13:38

I'm like, okay, I don't even know what it is, but I'll do it for 10 GS, you know?

13:42

And that was what was a few months of support for me and my small family.

13:47

At that time. It wouldn't give me. That much time right now, but back then it did, right.

13:53

Other people heard I was doing this and they started throwing stuff my way and it just kind of

13:57

trickled in and it was like, wow, this is cool.

13:59

It just happened. Another thing I had another fleece, I laid up.

14:03

I don't really want to quit. I have loyalty issues with my current job.

14:07

I really feel invested with this college. I care about these people.

14:10

I have a real hard time quitting. You gotta help me with this.

14:13

My boss calls me into his office one day. He's like, Hey, Josh, I can tell you're unhappy.

14:18

You're now overqualified because they have this master's degree.

14:21

So why don't you go get another job or I'm going to help you find one.

14:27

You know, I wasn't depressed. Most people would come out of that meeting like depressed, but I'm like, well, that was one of

14:31

the things on my prayer list that just happened.

14:34

And you can kind of put together the pieces that, that might've happened naturally.

14:38

But for me, it was a really big sign. Like this is specifically what I had prayed for and aspect.

14:43

And I ended up starting the business. A few other things just happened that were very unexpected.

14:48

I ended up picking up a very large Jesus.

14:51

It was like a multi-billion dollar client within seven months.

14:54

Wow. Just from people that I knew and people even ask me, like, how did you get these clients?

15:00

And I'm like, I don't know.

15:02

I don't understand it. I don't know where they came from.

15:06

This doesn't make any sense to me, but yeah, I don't have quite the same level of charismatic personality that you do, Scott.

15:12

So I wasn't out there like wine and dine and making people feel comfortable and handing

15:18

me their wallets just because they liked me.

15:20

I'm sure that happens to you all the time. Um, you know, for me that I don't have that level of magnetism.

15:26

And so the fact that that would happen to me out of nowhere without.

15:30

Really knowing how to get it was like, wow, okay, God exists.

15:34

He's real. And he does support me having this business.

15:37

Cause you know, he didn't have to do that and those things didn't have to happen.

15:40

And there were so many things that lined up that I was like, wow, okay.

15:43

This is what I'm supposed to do. That was a good side.

15:46

That was a good, sure. Scott McClelland: And a good start. I think that's important.

15:50

Yeah. When you're trying to measure your steps in the beginning, you know, everything is an unknown and to

15:57

have your first couple of steps land well like that, it definitely gives you courage for the next few steps.

16:05

Yeah. Josh Barlow: In the next couple of years are pretty hard too.

16:07

So that experience got me through and it's like, well, I'm pretty sure I'm supposed to be here,

16:12

but I'm on the floor of my basement office.

16:15

Like I have no work to do.

16:17

And. My attempts to getting more, not working.

16:21

And so, yeah, it got me through a lot that got me through a lot.

16:25

Yeah. Scott McClelland: I think for me, and I think it relates to the story you're telling my business experience.

16:32

I don't know. I've been in five businesses.

16:35

At the partner level or founder or whatever, the first three were like crash and burn kind of scenarios, you know, like

16:42

really a very quick and rapid lesson and what not to do.

16:47

Oh, wow. You know, so I've had other businesses.

16:51

Currently, I'm only involved in this one, of course, 20 years, but I've had other businesses that have came and gone

16:56

during that period while I was doing this business as well.

16:59

So I've had a variety of experiences.

17:01

I got to say, it's been an education in my walk with the Lord.

17:06

I feel like. Ben put in situations, like you say, rubber meets the road.

17:13

It's quickly reconciling right.

17:15

Business is a rapidly reconciling environment.

17:18

We're not in a nonprofit here. You know what I'm saying?

17:21

You know, if there's a chance of being sustained or not really quick.

17:27

So you've got to honest environments like wrestling, you know, it's a very intimate and

17:33

one-on-one is that, you know, no fake and.

17:36

Except for the kind of wrestling. I totally

17:39

Josh Barlow: get what you're saying. I actually had, my first degree was in biblical studies and then I was going to be a teacher.

17:44

And both of those are kind of nebulous things.

17:47

Cause like a teacher, you go to classes. Teach ideas or you're a pastor, you kind of teach ideas, but I mean, I know those rubber meets the

17:55

road situations for both of those, but for me, it's like, all I have is rubber meets the road.

18:00

I understand Scott McClelland: what you're saying. Yup. I think that has been healthy.

18:04

And at times unwelcome, honestly, a lot of times.

18:09

The sequence. Isn't what you'd choose.

18:11

You're a lot closer to the edge, then you want to be most of them or a lot of the time.

18:17

And so that's a real-time feedback loop against what you're doing and if it's working.

18:22

And what needs to change. That's Josh Barlow: a good way of saying it.

18:25

There is always this instant feedback loop and a lot of times it goes directly against the

18:30

amount of money you have in your bank account. And I am down to a thousand dollars.

18:36

Okay, Scott McClelland: man, I've got some, wow.

18:39

A whole period of my story. You know, I've had a few, I would call a major crisis times and my business.

18:46

I think the ones I had early on really prepared me for the ones that would come later so that I wasn't

18:51

so thrown about by them, maybe what had happened.

18:55

But I think it's been a thing that has helped me deepen my faith.

18:59

I want to get you to unpack with us a little bit of a time when maybe expectations were different from.

19:07

Outcomes or whatever something happened that you, you expected it to go a certain way and it did.

19:13

And, and, and I think we always, and when we're walking with the Lord, we always get a win or we get a lesson.

19:19

The potential, there is always on the plus side though.

19:23

Sometimes it's an unwelcome instrument that we're confronted with.

19:30

Is there something that comes to mind about that side?

19:33

When did something like that happen? Josh Barlow: Oh, yeah, I always, I mean, this sounds dumb, but I get jealous sometimes reading the old Testament where

19:41

they talk about the Kings they'll wrap up a King's life.

19:44

And at the end they're like, well, his problem is that he just didn't trust God enough.

19:47

And he did this. It's like nice little bow on it. Here's this problem.

19:50

Done. You know, we can go to the next king, whereas in my life it's like, I'll be halfway

19:54

through something and I'm like, I need that. From the old Testament to come into my life right now and say, here's the bow, here's the problem grow up in this area.

20:03

And usually I'm just like, I can't figure out where the lesson is here.

20:06

I think that's the biggest problem. Like you're saying right now, you got through those businesses and you learn something, but

20:11

it's not like the learnings were prepared for you.

20:14

It's like, here's a mess.

20:17

Can you figure out why you made the mess? And a lot of times I'm like, I have no clue for a year.

20:22

I don't know. And that's the instances that I'm talking about now.

20:26

It's some of those times where I went through those things and I can come out of it now and look back at

20:31

it and say, oh, I think I know what it was, but in the middle of it, I was like, I have no clue what I'm doing.

20:38

And because business has that immediate feedback, it's just like, something is constantly hitting a buzzer.

20:43

You're doing it wrong. You're doing it wrong. You do. Okay. What is it?

20:47

I don't know. The biggest thing I had was when it was situations, when, um, we had just come off of just ridiculous plentiful.

20:56

Of just making money, hands over fist.

20:59

And we had really wanted to get into our own software, um, wanting to get into our own stuff because we

21:05

were building so many of these hairspray websites.

21:09

I could tell you what kind of shampoo you needed depending on your hairstyle.

21:14

And I didn't care about that stuff. And I just knew all of them.

21:16

I'm like, I'm building these things. I don't care about.

21:19

I don't like it. I want to build my own stuff. So I kind of turned the business in a hard right and really started going after new stuff and we let go of a bunch of people.

21:30

We're set up for the old way of doing things and the business financially crash a lot harder than I was expecting.

21:37

I had felt from the Lord that he was going to completely provide and take care of it and everything was going to be fine.

21:42

And I was going back to when I started the business, like, okay, he's going to do it the same week.

21:45

He did. I'm feeling like he's doing it this way again.

21:49

This time, it was much more like, yeah, I'm going to take care of you, but you're gonna be dragged behind the pickup truck by

21:59

could giving, given me that detail. It's more, we started out here.

22:03

I went down to pretty much no income, and I had built up such a ridiculously large pad in the old business

22:10

structure that we posted on that for a long time, but I was just pushing into the dream of doing my own

22:15

software, feeling like the Lord had supported me in it.

22:18

And I think a ways into it, I realized that I had made some very critical wisdom mistakes.

22:24

It was like, I took what I felt like the Lord was speaking to me and I interpreted it in this overly idealistic way.

22:30

Like, what he did is to me that way, that time.

22:32

So he's going to do it this way, this time when it's like. You know, I could have done more to keep current business going or pull in more business at the same

22:41

time I was going after these new things, that would have been the wise thing to do that would've been the

22:45

thing to do that would make sense in a business culture.

22:47

But I still had this thing in me where it was like, well, there's this idealistic way that I'm expecting God to operate.

22:55

I expected it so much that I avoided some very telltale signs that I shouldn't be doing at that.

23:00

Right. There's a desire to see God move and the desire to be recognized for what God's done in your life.

23:06

And I had all those things come to a head in me and I think pushed me away from a place of operating in wisdom.

23:13

Yeah. Because I mean, even the reality is when I started my business, we did have some money built up in order to.

23:19

It was on the backside. And I knew I was starting with a very low level of needed income.

23:25

So I was in an ideal spot to do that. So I still had the wisdom, but the second time I went through this, I was ignoring the fact

23:31

that I had done certain things in wisdom before. And.

23:34

Basically, literally jumping off a cliff, expecting Jesus to catch me with the music flying in the air.

23:41

It was just going to be beautiful. And then when I hit the ground going through the last money that I had, like, what the heck did I do?

23:52

What I really thought it was going to turn out.

23:57

And it was very hard, very hard for me.

24:00

And so. I had to put the dream of having my own software to do my own stuff to the side while I'm

24:05

like, nah, I got to get my money built back.

24:08

I gotta get my income built back up. Cause I can't do anything.

24:12

And that's the weird thing about. When you focus so heavily on God, you get in this place where you're thinking everything's going to be great and

24:18

fine and dandy because of that's the way a father works.

24:21

But then it's like, well, but a father also wants his kids to be able to live life and wisdom.

24:26

I mean, the entire book of Proverbs, you don't just rip it out and throw it away.

24:30

He wouldn't have told you that if he was always going to take care of everything, you didn't have to know anything.

24:34

It's like, no, you right. Understand how the seasons work.

24:37

You have to understand if you're a farmer, you have to understand how the crops work.

24:40

You have to understand how to plant it properly, and God's not going to rush in there and save your crop if you

24:44

didn't water it properly, if you didn't plant it right.

24:48

And that's the point of a lot of the teachings that he had and I was disregarding them.

24:52

So I learned a very fun and hard lesson that God's not there to cover up your mistakes.

24:59

There was a comedian that I heard that I was always funny.

25:01

He said, why do we always bless our food before we eat junk?

25:05

He's like what? I don't understand that. Why are we doing that?

25:08

Like, God, turn this Cheeto into broccoli on the way down my throat.

25:12

But you know, it's just like, it doesn't make any sense to eat better.

25:18

You know what I mean? Like you got this wisdom about things you can't just pray to cover up your own mistakes.

25:23

And that's the lesson that I learned. And in the middle of it, I was blaming it on, got a lie.

25:28

Like God, the ground's getting closer. My bank account getting lower.

25:30

I don't have the money here. You're supposed to come in and save me here.

25:33

And your name. And it was a fun experience.

25:37

I was like, oh, I cost this.

25:41

Yeah. Scott McClelland: Wow. It's a lesson in humility, I think for the upside and also for the down right.

25:49

Humility. I mean, if we take it in an ultra classic view, it means we could interpret that as saying everything's God's will, but

25:57

humility in this sense meant that your inputs had a consequence, not just that everything's ultimately leaning over on God and

26:07

it's going to go that way, whatever you do, but your inputs had an outcome and you know, the collaboration, I think the Lord's

26:15

teaching us how to work together with him, which includes with.

26:19

Discernment timing, all those kinds of things.

26:23

I think it's really important for us to realize that we're not going to overcome the laws that are put in place, the

26:31

law of seed time and harvest, and some others of the kind, but there's things that we do that create the outcomes.

26:41

And that's what. Learning, not that we don't depend on God.

26:46

I think that's the other side. Right?

26:48

We go too far. We just for sake, our dependence on God.

26:52

And we focus on the, you know, the celestial slot machine, you know what I'm saying?

26:57

I'm putting in several quarters and you know, I'm going to make so many poles.

27:01

God is I think a lot of people from a faith point of view, They approach God as programmatic.

27:09

You know what I mean? It's just like, we gotta be careful not to take that approach is a relational being, you know, there's something

27:18

alive and active going on there and we're learning.

27:21

We're learning how. To collaborate with him.

27:25

So thank you for sharing that. That's a lot of transparency there, and I really appreciate your being willing to say that.

27:33

So in some ways we're all still in the process.

27:35

Right. But some of those processes you've gotten through and you learn the lesson, maybe not as immediately as you'd hoped, but yeah.

27:42

What do you think? Josh Barlow: I think that's the hardest part.

27:45

The old Testament teachers, you know, they could, they could tell you what the guy's problem

27:50

was in a nice little bow, but in the middle. You don't know why you're there.

27:55

That's the hardest part for me is I'm able to share with you what lesson I think I learned through it,

28:01

but it took me months to years to figure it out.

28:04

And yeah, it's extremely not fun.

28:07

It's really, really unplugged.

28:10

Yeah. It's it's, it's the unpleasant level. You were like questioning.

28:13

Well, did I make up this God thing?

28:16

I mean, well, but I've had experiences that showed me that he did things, but I had a very clear expectation that was violated

28:23

and I got to figure out what to do with that expectation.

28:26

And it is hard, you know, there's no clear answer and you have to just go through it.

28:31

So it's, it's fun. It's really, really fun, man.

28:36

Scott McClelland: Yeah. Especially when it's over.

28:41

That's better. I mean, I've got this phrase.

28:44

I like to use time flies when you're not in pain.

28:48

Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean it can't time slowed down, man.

28:54

Josh Barlow: That's exactly right when you're in that pain, you're like, wow, I am still here.

28:59

And it's been 20 minutes, you know?

29:03

Scott McClelland: Exactly. 20 whole minutes.

29:05

I mean, the next 20 is almost, you can imagine going another 20 minutes.

29:12

I Josh Barlow: know that is such an odd experience to me.

29:15

Yeah. Like this last weekend just flew by and it's like, it's over now.

29:20

It's like, oh, Scott McClelland: Four days later on a holiday weekend

29:26

Josh Barlow: holiday weekend. I have Scott McClelland: to work. Yeah, here it is in front of us.

29:31

Well, it's cool for you to share that with us.

29:34

I really appreciate it. I do think we have to be honest.

29:38

Uh, about the things that happened as expected.

29:41

And we have to be honest, how about the ones that didn't happen?

29:44

Like we wanted them to or expected.

29:48

And I think that's part of the maturing process and it's also helps people who are in the lead up to those experiences.

29:55

God is faithful.

29:57

Sometimes we interpret what he says in a way that gives our own flare to it.

30:03

Right. We could say, okay, we feel led in this way.

30:07

So we started catching a grouping of expectations on to what we sense that may be, uh, a hyperextension.

30:17

Yeah. That had done that myself. And many times I would have to say, yeah, I'm confident God is faithful.

30:24

But I also think that we are learning.

30:27

About his faithfulness and also how to cooperate with him and the process.

30:33

Josh Barlow: Yeah. I just feel like I'm a little old to be maturing. It's like, come on, man.

30:37

Scott McClelland: Oh, gosh. Yeah. Well, me too.

30:41

And agreed and concur.

30:43

I can relate directly. Josh Barlow: I should be writing books, not, not reading them by now.

30:49

Scott McClelland: Yeah in time in time, for sure.

30:51

Once you get that huge pad built up on the second go round, you'll be in a position to take some time off in the mountains

30:58

with a quiet Creek flowing and just, just pinning your.

31:08

Josh Barlow: That's a pretty specific dream right there.

31:11

Scott McClelland: Maybe when I can personally relate to, I am hopeful for man.

31:16

I thank you so much Barlow for your time before we go.

31:19

A couple of things, obviously. I mean, you're not doing this for business promotion, but I would love to, if people want to get in touch with you

31:27

or find out more or be led to a resource or anything like that or not, you know, I like to give you that opportunity.

31:34

And one final call for anything else that you'd like to mention about faith business and that arc, if you will.

31:46

Josh Barlow: Okay, I'm kidding. I'm not going to do that.

31:48

Am I? I make my kids cringe every time I say that they think it's terrible.

31:53

I do it when I dropped them off at school.

31:55

There's some Scott McClelland: dad jokes. Josh Barlow: If you're embarrassing your kids, I think you must be a good dad and stuff.

32:02

Yeah, you are. Yes. As far as the business goes, the [email protected], it shows the type of stuff that we've done.

32:09

We are always looking for clients and it's always an enjoyable thing.

32:13

Ramp up a new client, understand what their needs are and see if we can take care of them.

32:17

And if we can't take care of them, usually we're just like, well, we think this company over here be better.

32:21

Cause we don't take someone on unless we feel like it's. A really good relationship for both parties.

32:26

We've turned on quite a few that way. Yeah.

32:29

It's just the way to do business, honestly. Yeah, for sure.

32:32

For sure. And as far as overall business thoughts, I think just because of where I am, I do believe that you

32:39

have to always be careful of over idealizing things.

32:43

It's kind of an intoxicating feeling that as a Christian it's like, I know the creator of the universe.

32:49

And man, can the dominoes fall a weird place?

32:52

Logically if you take that too far, I know the creator of the universe.

32:56

So obviously I'm going to be a bazillionaire cause my father owns the cattle on a thousand Hills, you know, and I've been

33:03

around Christians who, who honestly believe that and just take their idealism to the very unhealthy and illogical.

33:10

Perspective and, but then they just stay in dreamland and they don't actually go out there and they don't deal

33:15

with the difficulty of life and they don't deal with the difficulty of, I have to have that quick feedback loop.

33:21

And I guess I want to say, you know, if you are a Christian and you are in business, I think it's great that you're doing that.

33:26

Cause you're, you're wrestling with these two sides of things.

33:28

You're wrestling with the fact that God is the creator.

33:31

He takes care of you. And yet you can still fall and skinnier.

33:35

And you will have to deal with the consequences and you get to wrestle with how do I put these two things together?

33:40

It is difficult, but I feel like it is very rewarding.

33:42

And in my experience, I do feel like God is real and he does come and he does help you through

33:47

things and, and in a very experiential and real way.

33:51

And I don't ever want to consider. Me talking about feeling like God dropped me, was the reality of what actually happened.

33:57

I really didn't feel like he'd never really did drop me.

34:00

Cause even in the, in the time when I just about hit the ground, things twisted around, I ended up getting

34:05

money in a weird way that I didn't even expect.

34:07

And I feel like he was kind of like, okay, you quote unquote, hit the ground, let's start back over again.

34:12

And I feel like he did kind of pick me back up and help me forward after I learned a lesson that wasn't fatal.

34:17

And so, yeah. I feel like God is harsher than we would think, because he's not up to date with our Teddy bear viewpoints of him.

34:24

He does let us hit the ground. But at the same time, he is a good father and he knows what we need.

34:29

Yes, 20 years ago, he did deal with me with some more kid gloves and now he will let me take the punches and I'm growing.

34:38

That's the reality in my mind of being a Christian business owner, he will let you take the punches when you're ready.

34:44

Scott McClelland: Agreed. Very well-characterized.

34:46

Thank you for saying so. And that's helpful encouraging, and I'm going to get me some head gear out of the closet and put it on

34:54

right now so I can absorb some more of the punches.

34:58

Thanks again, tech muscle.com.

35:00

That's got some of your projects and stuff out there.

35:02

Folks can get a look. I appreciate very much being on blessings to you and your family, your continued efforts and your.

35:10

Incremental wisdom accumulation as it goes forward.

35:14

Josh Barlow: Thank you, sir. Thank you family. Yes, Scott McClelland: sir.

35:17

Yes, sir. Blessing studio and we'll back link to your site and that, and we'll, we'll get some stuff out about this episode.

35:24

Really appreciate you being here, blessings to you. Let's stay in touch.

35:27

Thank you. All right. Thanks Barlow.

35:30

I am Scott McClellan for ethics missions podcasting.

35:33

If you'd like to contact me or us, please do [email protected].

35:42

We want to say thanks to Josh Barlow for sharing his story, and you can find [email protected] really

35:51

appreciate that brother and everything that he stands for and his walk of faith in the business community.

35:58

Have you ever wondered about the interplay between skills and attitude and success?

36:04

We're going to talk about that next time as Billy shares about his barbershop in Southern Brazil,

36:14

it's a place also not only where people get styled to perfection, but where they receive ministry.

36:24

If you haven't already follow the podcast at leaders, moment.org/follow.

36:31

Thanks so much for being here. Let us know if you had a light bulb moment today.

36:35

Send a message to [email protected].

36:40

Thanks again.