0:05

see my game face came on then

0:09

yeah exactly so get in the zone

0:13

get in the zone it's like that um it's

0:16

like pulp fiction isn't it you know

0:17

we've been messing around for the last

0:19

20 minutes and then it's like into

0:21

character

0:23

when they're outside the student room

0:24

door in the block of flats and they're

0:26

just about to bust in and they start

0:27

just

0:28

having a chat yeah we've been talking

0:30

about burgers for the last 20 minutes but

0:32

never going to do a podcast so into

0:34

character

0:35

that's exactly what they call a big mac

0:37

in france

0:39

a royale with cheese

0:43

catching me out on basics like that

0:46

so listen uh the great and powerful

0:48

kevin green it's good to have you

0:50

on leadership bites

0:54

on a episode that is dedicated to you

0:58

about that boom drumroll

1:04

you already started me crying i've got

1:05

to work my eyes are tears now

1:07

because i'm already laughing so much

1:11

oh god that's why nobody listens to the

1:13

podcast

1:15

just it's just it's just me

1:18

me talking and laughing to myself but uh

1:20

we are here

1:21

we are here

1:27

okay this doesn't work so it looks a

1:29

little bit like that

1:30

i see you spot you've shown it before

1:32

i've done my reveal

1:33

so for those of you that aren't

1:34

listening uh listening on the podcast

1:36

and actually looking at the zoom recording

1:38

the the book uh

1:40

that is kevin's book is now appealing

1:42

appearing at the bottom of the screen

1:44

so uh kevin has written a book called

1:48

performance

1:49

leadership 2.0

1:52

and it says uncommon sense to achieve

1:56

uncommon performance at work

2:00

so we're going to just have a little

2:02

chat about the book

2:03

and um now this is the bit where i

2:07

embarrass

2:08

you kevin but uh there are very few

2:11

people who i pay attention to

2:13

as you well know um as i have the

2:16

attention span of a

2:17

goldfish literally so there are certain

2:20

key people that if they do something or

2:22

say something i'll listen to it and i'll

2:24

pay attention to it and and you're one

2:26

of them

2:30

captured that on video now guy thank you

2:33

because i've probably said as much on a

2:36

comment on whatsapp from time to time

2:38

i am of the view that opinions are not

2:41

created equal

2:43

men and women might be but i do not

2:45

believe that all opinions are created

2:47

equal

2:47

so when you're willing to states say

2:49

stuff like that about me

2:51

coming from you that gets me in the

2:54

heart

2:55

thank you boom okay well listen awesome

2:59

let's let's talk about the book let's

3:01

also introduce you now

3:03

people will have come up if they know me

3:05

they'll know that i know you we've known

3:07

each other for

3:08

whoa ever such a long time now um

3:11

uh over 20 plus years 20 plus years

3:15

i was going to say it must be at least 10.

3:16

[Laughter]

3:18

it's like the uh it's like the married

3:20

couple that go um

3:22

we've been married for what 10 years 20

3:26

you know something along those lines so

3:29

we've worked together

3:30

we've um had breaks apart from working

3:34

together we've then

3:35

come back and worked together um and

3:38

now we work on projects from time to

3:41

time as they come up in fact we're about

3:42

to

3:43

if all things go well we're about to

3:45

embark on a 12-month project

3:46

uh together um which i'm really looking

3:49

forward to so

3:50

i know you i dare say the word

3:52

intimately um

3:54

probably never use that word again

3:57

but there is a thing called professional

3:59

intimacy in there

4:00

easy for you to say yes there is and

4:03

that intimacy

4:04

definitely exists as a between the two

4:06

of us so

4:07

listen uh kevin green i know who you are

4:11

but who is kevin green just a little

4:14

introduction from you that says what if

4:16

people

4:17

kind of want to have a sense of who and

4:18

what i am and what i'm about

4:20

this is this is who i am just before we

4:22

get into the book

4:25

who is kevin green is a very very big

4:28

question this is my best stab

4:31

in terms of my work some people have

4:33

have a job and that's good

4:34

because it provides shelter some people

4:37

are lucky enough to have a career

4:40

i consider what i do to be a calling i

4:43

have been

4:44

so fortunate and so grateful and so

4:46

blessed

4:47

that i'm in a role which enables me to

4:49

spring out of my bed every single

4:51

morning

4:51

i can't remember ever having to scrape

4:54

myself off a mattress just to go to work

4:57

at least for the last 14 15 years

5:01

so i'm in love with my work i'm in love

5:03

with the difference that i can

5:05

potentially make for others

5:07

if we end up talking about any element

5:09

of book which talks about what motivates

5:10

people to do what they do

5:12

my driving human need my biggest

5:14

motivator around kevin green

5:16

is contribution are you making a

5:18

difference

5:19

and when i talk about being grateful for

5:21

the role and the work that i do

5:23

i'm in a position where i have a chance

5:25

i have a stab

5:26

at taking people maybe one percent

5:29

closer

5:30

to their potential after and during the

5:33

work

5:34

that i do with them that sets me alight

5:37

i'm really flipping enthusiastic and

5:39

passionate about that stuff

5:43

my other roles in this world are i am a

5:45

father i have a 25 year old son called

5:48

adam

5:49

who got a first degree in business and

5:52

economics and i'm so proud of him

5:54

he worked so hard during his university

5:56

career

5:57

and he is making his mark in the world

6:00

now as a pay-per-click

6:02

account manager doing very well as well

6:05

already received two promotions and i'm

6:08

in love with my wife jill

6:10

who i've been extremely happily married

6:13

to for the last 20 years

6:15

and that probably links us to the first

6:18

part of the book

6:19

where everybody does their

6:20

acknowledgements right my first

6:22

acknowledgement was to my wife

6:24

she's a nurse the book provided me with

6:26

space in my calendar

6:28

to write the book and uh i'd run out of

6:31

excuses

6:32

to not write it you nagged me

6:35

and bullied me into doing it my diary

6:38

emptied because of covid

6:40

and the first thing i wanted to do was

6:41

say well done jill my wife

6:44

because when we go out of our doors

6:48

thursday and at eight o'clock when we

6:50

used to

6:51

to clap for carers i knew that i was

6:53

clapping for my wife

6:55

and then on on a thursday in april i

6:58

think it was the third week in april

7:00

she was interviewed on on bbc

7:04

national news and so millions of people

7:06

around the country

7:07

ended up meeting my wife and so i'm

7:10

talking about my role as husband

7:12

the reason why i'm in love with jill so

7:14

much is because if you could come out

7:16

with

7:17

me and jill you should see the number of

7:20

occasions where

7:21

small normally skittish animals just

7:24

become comfortable in her presence

7:26

she just seems to give off an energy of

7:28

it's okay to be near her and small

7:30

children stop crying when they see her

7:32

and catch her gaze uh and they start

7:35

smiling her

7:36

it's a wonderful experience just to be

7:38

with her and around her

7:42

i don't know if that's just answered the

7:43

question though

7:45

who's kevin green wouldn't it that was

7:46

the question i don't want to talk about

7:48

the book anymore

7:51

i want to talk about you and jill so

7:54

so i'm hoping that gives you a kind of a

7:56

flavour as to the type of man

7:58

that i am um and and

8:01

the difference that my work makes to me

8:04

in this world

8:05

the biggest thing that i want to

8:06

underline is i

8:08

feel so grateful every single day that i

8:11

never have to hit snooze on an alarm

8:12

just to get out of bed

8:13

i love getting out of bed to get into

8:15

the kind of stuff that we do

8:17

when we share

8:22

okay that's it that's the end of the

8:24

episode

8:27

i think we should end there perfect so

8:30

listen thanks for that kevin um that's

8:32

awesome the the book

8:34

um you know i do we do laugh about the

8:36

fact that you know

8:37

my whatsapp's going where's your book

8:39

where's your book where's your book

8:40

um but you know that's why i use the

8:42

word bully bullied me into it

8:46

but listen it's all huge and positive so

8:48

listen you've got this book and i know

8:50

that you did it

8:51

i know you didn't get a ghostwriter i

8:53

know you didn't get um

8:55

somebody else to do it for you you um

8:59

you know you did the book cover design

9:01

you you've done everything so it really

9:02

is your

9:03

you know your your uh the essence of

9:05

what you're about and stuff like that so

9:08

um we've touched on it slightly but if i

9:11

say what triggered it

9:12

because you know somebody bullying you

9:14

doesn't trigger you

9:16

to do it but what was the

9:19

reason for you maybe it's the purpose

9:22

maybe not what triggered it maybe what's

9:23

the purpose of the book for you

9:28

i'd like to talk about only briefly two

9:31

things that were not the purpose

9:33

because that leads me nicely into what

9:36

did drive me

9:38

opportunity was a big thing i knew sorry

9:41

i didn't know

9:42

i felt that i had a book in me and then

9:45

when my my diary which is normally

9:46

chocker

9:47

suddenly empties because of kovid whilst

9:50

i wish

9:51

the circumstances that provided that

9:52

space and time to write it

9:54

wasn't caused by people suffering that

9:56

gave me the space

9:58

i didn't write it because i wanted to

10:00

make a bunch of money

10:03

though if the money came along i'm not

10:05

gonna pass it off

10:07

and i didn't write it to become a

10:09

bestseller but equally if that became a

10:11

consequence

10:12

that's absolutely fine with me the

10:14

reason why i did write it was because

10:17

i want to use it as a potential way

10:20

of reaching with my work

10:24

and if one of the ways i can gain

10:26

credibility in a potential

10:28

customers or clients eyes is to say well

10:30

actually one of the ways i can check him

10:32

out

10:33

is to see what he's got to say in his

10:34

own book then

10:36

that's hitting the nail on the head for

10:38

me so it was written

10:40

with a motivation to achieve

10:42

professional credibility

10:44

but if you don't mind guy if we go back

10:46

to the earliest motivations around why

10:48

would you mind telling your story around

10:52

why you ended up writing your book and

10:54

and your

10:55

the story that was triggered

10:58

by you having a conversation with mark

11:00

janssen yeah so

11:02

mark janssen who we both know and i

11:05

reported into as a

11:06

boss mentor um

11:10

for many years who i've got you know i

11:13

think he is probably

11:14

one of the most capable leader managers

11:17

i've ever

11:18

come across in terms of his intellect

11:21

and his empathy and his drive and his

11:24

motivation

11:25

you know uh he's an incredible human

11:27

being

11:28

so uh and he was incredibly tolerant of

11:30

me um

11:32

you know as we all know which requires a

11:34

lot of tolerance

11:35

and you know he which is effective

11:37

leadership by the way yeah

11:39

exactly gave me a lot of space adapting

11:40

to the nature

11:42

yeah probably more than i deserved many

11:44

times but the the point of that was

11:46

is you know the the having a book in you

11:48

i'd been messing about with a book for a

11:50

long time

11:51

and i couldn't get it out of myself

11:55

so to speak and we went to a conference

11:59

and there was a speaker he was all right

12:02

and he had a book and he gave the book

12:06

out which was fine

12:08

and i thought i'll read a bit of this

12:10

because you know i'm trying to

12:11

write a book and it was

12:14

gibberish basically and

12:19

that's why i'm not saying if it was or

12:20

when it was and it was it was literally

12:22

it was literally unreadable

12:24

well it wasn't unreadable it was just it

12:26

was like it was written

12:29

for like children and and i

12:32

came downstairs the next day sat down

12:36

and said to mark you know that book and

12:38

mark

12:40

i went it's absolute generation i mean

12:42

it's written for children and

12:44

i just went on and on and on and mark

12:46

being mark just

12:47

let me witter on and then after probably

12:50

at the point where he had something

12:52

actually that he needed to do stopped me

12:54

and went guy can i stop you for a second

12:56

i go yeah he goes

12:58

you know his rubbish book he went oh

13:00

wait yeah he was it's better than your

13:01

no book though isn't it

13:04

it's brilliant in it brilliant and i

13:06

will never get tired of listening to

13:08

that story

13:09

and it made me just go oh god

13:14

because he absolutely nailed it it was

13:17

you can't really have an opinion on a

13:20

thing that you haven't generated

13:22

i mean you can but it's rather

13:25

childish to say that's rubbish

13:30

but i haven't done one you know

13:33

and you have a very keen and accurate

13:35

critical eye guy

13:36

but in the end i think what mark hanson

13:39

achieved there is

13:41

self-awareness accountability and and

13:44

the fact that we realized that nobody

13:45

ever built statues for critics

13:48

and it really put put you

13:51

it was a challenge it was also a

13:53

challenge you know it was

13:56

um you know it was him

14:00

really saying to me put up or shut up

14:03

you know it was he'd heard me talk about

14:05

a book over the

14:06

over time and you know yeah so that that

14:09

that's the and actually if we think

14:11

about what performance

14:14

management performance leadership

14:17

is you know it's not all in a room

14:20

at three o'clock having your performance

14:22

review is it

14:23

it's actually a passing reflection

14:27

insight challenge call to arms

14:31

counsel mentorship all in one statement

14:35

sometimes

14:37

and and i think so quite interesting

14:40

i think it's a wonderful story and

14:42

answers the question around you you

14:43

passed that story on to me

14:45

you gave me the right mindset and

14:48

assistance every now and again to

14:50

to point me in the right direction of of

14:52

how i could get it done how i could

14:54

organize

14:54

and arrange my thinking but it also

14:57

provides an example of the book's title

14:59

what mark did for you not to you what

15:02

mark did for you

15:03

in that conversation is achieve

15:05

performance leadership

15:06

i think performance management might

15:09

have been covering your next one to one

15:11

guy i finally be critical of your peers

15:13

um you had nine thing

15:15

nine bad things to say about that author

15:17

and you couldn't even find one good thing

15:19

that might have been the performance

15:20

management conversation could you bring

15:22

to work a more cheerful outlook

15:24

in future police guy might be the

15:26

typical performance management

15:27

conversations

15:29

but when mark does it so artfully

15:33

and with skill and incision and says

15:37

you know his rubbish book guy better

15:39

than your notebook

15:41

it just took one sentence and it's

15:44

hit the mark it's hit the bullseye and i

15:47

think that's

15:48

performance leadership well i noticed

15:50

that on the inside

15:52

of the jacket it says performance

15:54

management

15:55

uh and i'm holding it up for those of us

15:58

that

15:58

are watching the video and performance

16:00

management management's crossed out and

16:02

then it says leadership

16:04

uh underneath and 2.0 so um

16:08

hopefully it would be great to pick up

16:10

on that a little bit

16:11

and and follow on from that thinking

16:13

that for you there is a difference

16:15

between

16:16

performance management and performance

16:18

leadership

16:21

yeah i wanted to visually make that

16:25

point because

16:25

performance management i i think is a

16:28

term talked about

16:29

mostly it is a term that

16:33

causes most people to become fearful in

16:35

their workplace

16:36

bob's being performance managed mary's

16:39

on a performance management plan

16:42

or a performance improvement plan uh

16:45

if you are responsible for the line

16:46

management of others you are a

16:48

performance manager

16:50

you will always have access to a set of

16:52

metrics a dashboard

16:54

a range of kpis to which you can hold

16:56

your team members accountable

16:58

when you engage in those conversations

17:00

around you see that number there

17:02

you need to make that better that's

17:04

performance management and i think that

17:05

occupies the bulk

17:07

of performance conversations and

17:10

if we're having performance management

17:11

conversations can i speak to you in the

17:13

office for 10 minutes

17:14

that's normally bad news normally comes

17:17

with an award of a position

17:18

you are responsible for the line

17:20

management of others performance

17:22

leadership is behavioral

17:24

it's how you show up into a conversation

17:26

that achieves

17:27

breakthrough realization ownership and

17:30

accountability

17:31

i'm responsible for my motivation you

17:33

are responsible for yours

17:35

what can i do in the name of supporting

17:37

you and providing you with an environment

17:38

that can cause your performance

17:40

breakthrough the example that we've

17:42

already used is

17:44

this rubbish book is better than your

17:46

notebook that's performance leadership

17:48

and it takes more thinking it takes care

17:52

it takes consideration and it's not

17:55

all of the time dependent on a set of

17:58

metrics

18:00

2.0 i wanted to try and make a

18:04

suggestion

18:05

immediately to the potential reader that

18:07

we're not starting at square one

18:10

so how can i capture that and represent

18:12

that visually so

18:14

what's beyond basic i hear the term 2.0

18:18

and just to make sure that i wasn't

18:20

going to embarrass myself

18:21

i researched the term 2.0 and it says

18:24

what i hoped it would be saying i.e it's

18:27

a

18:28

it's a reinvigoration it's the next

18:30

level it's a second step

18:32

and maybe beyond so whilst

18:35

i believe if you are of reasonable

18:39

intelligence you will pick up the

18:40

contents of my book and get it

18:43

i think the 2.0 stuff is bringing the

18:46

craft

18:47

and bringing the art of your performance

18:50

sorry performance conversations

18:53

which ends up being leadership of

18:55

performance through your behavior

18:57

not performance management by metrics

19:00

and data

19:02

so there's something here about

19:05

it's nothing instead of am i right it's

19:07

an and

19:09

it's still the competence of knowing how

19:12

to

19:13

run a formal management

19:16

performance process because there has to

19:19

be maybe an underlying competence of

19:22

craft

19:23

but then there's it's the it's the and

19:26

that says maybe you know and maybe at

19:29

one end of a conversation no

19:31

this is a very

19:35

clear performance management in the

19:37

context of that vernacular that we use

19:39

that we wish people don't use

19:41

but all but also it can there's a you

19:43

pick up the stick you get both ends i

19:45

guess which is

19:46

there's another end to this which isn't

19:48

just

19:49

stat stat stats it's also about what i

19:52

might do

19:53

through my exp the experience of me that

19:55

would engender performance

19:59

is that right yeah yeah engender

20:01

performance is a nice way of putting it

20:03

and it's an end is also a nice way of

20:05

putting it

20:06

not instead of not a replacement of

20:09

um yeah i'd go along with that

20:13

it's not it's not performance management

20:15

because in the book i haven't told

20:17

people

20:18

how to have an effective performance

20:19

conversation i haven't given you a

20:21

structure if you're the reader

20:23

as to what elements or what touch points

20:25

should be involved

20:26

in a performance conversation

20:28

performance management

20:29

there's a thousand thousands of books

20:31

that already do that yeah yeah

20:33

but what i have covered in the book is

20:35

to how to show up

20:37

into those conversations when things are

20:40

are

20:40

not going as well as they could be but

20:43

rightly

20:44

yeah i've acknowledged in the book that

20:45

most people don't come to work

20:48

just to mess it up nobody's coming with

20:50

a motivation

20:51

for sabotage nobody's coming with the

20:54

deliberate unconsciously

20:56

intent to mess things up for the boss so

20:58

i

20:59

i spend a bit of time on calling out the

21:01

things that people are doing

21:02

doing right i watched a wonderful video

21:05

on youtube

21:07

it's uh it's a coca-cola advert and it

21:10

the way it landed it's key messages for

21:12

me was

21:14

there's loads of cctv cameras in the

21:16

world the main aim of cctv cameras

21:19

is to prevent and to solve crime

21:22

but the cctv cameras of the world also

21:26

pick up on people stealing kisses

21:29

from each other they also pick up on

21:33

the hero pickpockets where they notice

21:36

that somebody has been pickpocketed

21:38

confront the pickpocket retrieve the bag

21:40

the personal wallet

21:41

and return it to its owner we see

21:45

people celebrating the fact that there

21:47

are homeless people outside the kebab

21:49

shop

21:50

and they're sharing their chips with

21:51

them cctv

21:54

catches people doing it right as well as

21:56

wrong

21:57

as a boss in the workplace as a leader

21:59

of the workplace

22:00

responsible for elevating levels of

22:02

performance we can use our eyes

22:04

to be the cctv that catches people doing

22:07

it

22:08

right as well and i cover in the book

22:10

how that sets off a really nice chain

22:12

reaction

22:12

of chemicals that go into the

22:14

bloodstream um so that's a flavor of

22:16

the tone of voice that the book covers

22:20

i like that i think the work that we do

22:22

and we work together we

22:24

we always say the tool isn't complex

22:28

the model itself is relatively easy

22:32

it's your mindset it's your motivation

22:35

it's your

22:35

will it's the whether or not you're

22:38

actually going to apply

22:41

your character your personality your

22:43

brand that narrative that you want for

22:46

yourself the

22:47

the duty of care that you have that

22:49

might go beyond the process

22:51

that's all that stuff that sits around a

22:54

technique

22:56

which you can google you know how to

22:59

give feedback boom there you go

23:01

job done take you about five minutes

23:03

easy so this is a book that says look

23:06

there's probably 50 to 100

23:09

ways of doing a performance conversation

23:12

and there's not that many ways of doing

23:15

it technically wrong

23:17

but actually if you want to make it of

23:18

high value if you actually want it to

23:20

have an impact

23:21

but then it's the experience of you and

23:22

what you're doing in that context and

23:24

that's what this book is about right

23:26

nice and you use some nice language

23:28

there guy along the lines of it's about

23:30

bringing your character and your

23:32

personality and i talk about

23:33

the need and importance of bringing your

23:36

own weather to work with you

23:37

for example if if you are a line manager

23:39

of others

23:41

you're not entitled to bringing cloudy

23:43

weather with you

23:44

that was inspired by an event that

23:46

happened to me every now and again i get

23:47

a great opportunity to speak to

23:50

three four hundred people at a

23:51

conference environment i still get that

23:53

despite the number of times i've done it

23:55

now i still get nervous

23:56

and that's okay i'm i'm at peace with

23:58

the nerves

23:59

one of the best ways i've found of

24:01

massaging or easing or calming my nerves

24:04

is to meet and greet as many people in

24:06

the entrance or the foyer

24:08

or the reception area of the conference

24:09

event and just say hello to as many

24:11

people as i can

24:12

and i approached one delegate on one

24:14

conference and said hi my name's kevin

24:16

i'm going to be looking after the event

24:17

for you today how are you doing

24:19

and this person said to me well you know

24:21

it's that time of year isn't it

24:22

i said what do you mean it's all you get

24:25

up in the dark

24:26

you go to work in the dark you come home

24:28

in the dark

24:29

i said thanks very much i hope you had a

24:31

good day and i turned on my heels and i

24:32

left that engagement

24:34

the reason was i brought because it was

24:36

my duty to

24:38

a sunny outlook a cheerful

24:41

sunny outlook day because i was

24:44

responsible for bringing cheerful

24:46

weather with me to work

24:48

and that man as a delegate had brought

24:51

cloudy weather with him to work

24:54

at that day and i didn't want his

24:56

weather

24:57

infecting mine and so in the book i talk

24:59

about the need to bring your own

25:01

to choose and to bring your own weather

25:03

to work with you

25:05

i like that and um

25:09

yeah i'm just looking something up here

25:12

which is

25:13

the um and i can never say his name

25:16

right which is why i was looking it up

25:18

i know how to spell it but when you say

25:19

i was looking something up you needed

25:20

jamie don't you

25:24

yeah so if if any of you know the joe

25:27

rogan reference

25:28

yeah joe rogan the ultimate podcaster uh

25:32

has a jamie and that's the jamie who

25:34

basically as

25:34

joe rogan speaks jamie is almost in real

25:38

time

25:38

pulling stuff up for joe rogan to look

25:40

at and uh

25:42

he's a wizard um

25:45

on the internet in that and i think it's

25:47

got a which is g-o-e-t-h-e

25:51

i'm almost certainly saying that wrong

25:53

but i he

25:54

in one of his quotes is i have come to

25:56

the frightening conclusion that i am the

25:58

decisive element

26:00

it is my personal approach that creates

26:02

the climate

26:03

it is my daily mood that makes the

26:05

weather to your reference

26:08

in all situations it is my response that

26:10

decides whether a crisis is to be

26:12

escalated or de-escalated and a person

26:15

is to be humanized or dehumanized

26:19

superb and that fits doesn't it that way

26:22

you're absolutely really where you're coming

26:24

from on that and i that really really

26:26

resonates with me absolutely and another

26:30

thing you mentioned about

26:31

bringing your character and your

26:32

personality to work i i

26:34

try to reinvigorate performance

26:36

conversations in the book along the

26:38

lines of well okay things aren't

26:40

going too well for you at the moment bob

26:42

so how much do you think of yourself are

26:44

you applying at work today

26:45

and sometimes people will turn around

26:47

and say i don't know probably 80

26:49

it's a bit rubbish around here lately in

26:50

it probably 85

26:52

maybe tops well don't worry because i'm

26:55

not going to go to hr and ask for a 20

26:57

deduction of your salary this month but

26:58

i do want to remind you that when we

27:00

entered into our bargain with each other

27:02

you signed up for 100 of you regardless

27:06

of whether or not you think it's

27:07

fantastic or rubbish here

27:09

now i'm not saying that that has to be a

27:10

literal conversation but i

27:12

think the reinvigoration of the thinking

27:14

around performance conversations

27:16

can be like that and i think what i've

27:19

always loved about

27:20

the you know there's uh

27:24

the exposure to other people helps me be

27:27

better at things right and one of the

27:28

things i've always

27:30

admired about the way that you deliver

27:34

that thinking which i know is present in

27:36

the book

27:37

is a expectation

27:41

of fulfilling an agreement that sits

27:45

between two people

27:48

you know i'll um i'm your manager you're

27:51

my line report

27:52

that's not that's not about hierarchy i

27:54

mean there is one

27:55

but we we need to have a contract

27:57

between the two of us you know you want

27:58

to be

28:00

dealt with in this way and i need this

28:01

from you and you know we promise to do

28:04

this with each other

28:05

and etc etc and so i i always see that

28:08

you know way of your verbalizing am i

28:11

writing saying

28:12

and have we understood each other and

28:14

would it be fair to say

28:16

because you're you're you're you're

28:18

going down that road

28:20

of you know there might be a process

28:22

here but this is really about what

28:24

you and i are agreeing this is really

28:27

about the honesty between the two of us

28:30

and how genuine that can be and i think

28:33

i find that

28:35

i mean that's a truth for the context of

28:38

having

28:39

high quality conversations but i really

28:41

see that presence and i

28:43

and i feel that in the book as well

28:45

thank you for that guy because i'm

28:47

really big on two things

28:48

num number one is permission ie i won't

28:51

just comply with your view

28:53

i'm here for the learning as well so if

28:55

i'm not on board with your

28:57

view of the world because none of us

28:58

view the world as it is we only view the

29:00

world

29:01

as we are and we're running all of this

29:03

stuff through our own filters

29:04

before it comes out of our mouth and out

29:06

and off our lips

29:08

so if i don't agree with you i'm seeking

29:10

to understand you first before i judge

29:12

you or for my heart and far

29:14

just opinion about your view so i'm big

29:17

on permission saying actually guy

29:18

i'm not on board with the way you've

29:19

just described that can we dig a little

29:21

bit deeper

29:23

because i'm curious i want to make sure

29:25

i understand you before i challenge you

29:26

but i'll seek your permission to do that

29:28

and that normally makes you feel

29:30

safe under the weight of a challenge so

29:33

i'm big on permission

29:34

and i'm also big on summarizing because

29:37

i don't want to have a 30-minute

29:38

performance conversation with somebody

29:40

with me exiting exiting with one view of

29:43

what we've just agreed

29:44

and you exiting with a completely

29:46

different version

29:47

so for every chunk of conversation i

29:49

don't care if that chunk is

29:51

2 minutes or 20 i'm going to press pull

29:53

so guy it

29:54

so far i think we're signing up to or

29:57

guy am i right insane

29:58

which was the language you used so those

30:01

are those are two things i'm big on

30:03

permission

30:03

permission to challenge normally so that

30:05

i can understand you

30:07

and summarizing to make sure that i'm on

30:08

the on the right page with you

30:11

i think uh summarizing is

30:15

it's a it's a it's a constant

30:18

summarizing with the intent that the

30:20

other person

30:21

is listening to the summary to calibrate

30:24

what i've just said

30:27

and that's something that i really know

30:29

that

30:30

you i we focus on which is that

30:34

it's yeah i'm showing you that i've

30:36

listened but i need you to listen to my

30:39

summary

30:39

of having listened with the intent that

30:42

you give it a thumbs up

30:44

a ah not quite that's not quite what i

30:46

heard or that's not quite what i meant

30:48

or a challenge to my understanding

30:52

so this constant theme

30:55

of be it a conversation be it a

30:59

performance leadership conversation as i

31:01

will now call it and

31:02

never refer to it as a performance

31:04

management conversation again that's my

31:06

taking that on board thank you what a

31:08

difference we're making already to the

31:09

world

31:10

mate between the two of us and um

31:13

but what i what i recognize is it's it

31:17

can't be passive

31:19

it can't be a passive interaction it's

31:21

not you turning up and

31:23

i am doing it to you we are

31:26

going into a interaction

31:29

and there's going to be a partnership

31:31

here

31:33

yes i have the probably the positional

31:35

power

31:36

you know if it's hierarchical but the

31:39

reality is if that

31:40

has to be utilized then something's gone

31:43

wrong

31:45

and i have to come to the realization

31:47

and acceptance that if i only ever will

31:50

hierarchy positional power with you to

31:53

influence you

31:53

i'm never going to get the best

31:55

performance from you yeah there's always

31:57

going to be something

31:58

subconsciously held back because i'm

32:01

being done too

32:03

by the hierarchy of my line manager

32:06

the position of power of my line manager

32:08

the other thing that i think

32:09

we achieve when we when we take time to

32:12

summarize

32:13

well accurately and skillfully is a

32:16

probably not the best choice of words

32:18

but i end up scoring quite a lot of

32:20

points with you

32:21

because you now know that i've shown up

32:23

into this conversation

32:24

to understand you not to respond to you

32:27

not to press on with

32:28

my agenda for you so the better i am at

32:30

summarizing your

32:31

your view of this situation you know

32:34

that i'm

32:34

that i'm invested you know that i care

32:36

you know that i've paid attention

32:38

and your voice is therefore heard and

32:39

valued yeah

32:42

that's that's achieved by summaries as

32:43

well

32:46

what's the reaction to the book been so

32:48

far kevin

32:51

it's early days uh like i said i'm not i

32:53

never i've never wrote it with the

32:55

motivation to

32:56

to to sell thousands um but

33:00

with relief all of the reviews so far

33:02

have have been

33:04

five star on amazon um the biggest

33:08

risk that i took was asking my

33:10

brother-in-law

33:12

is an entrepreneur uh he owns property

33:15

in the northeast of england

33:17

uh he as his home he bought an old hotel

33:20

just converted it to his house the only

33:23

reason you do

33:24

say no he trades money

33:27

uh he trades not stocks and shares he

33:29

trades futures

33:31

uh for an exchange it's a different

33:34

world to

33:35

to me maybe you as well but he's he's

33:38

clearly a very switched on an

33:39

intelligent man and he's made his money

33:41

a couple of times over um

33:45

so as an entrepreneur i knew out of

33:48

maybe just family loyalty he was always

33:50

going to buy his brother-in-law's book

33:53

but because he is so flipping

33:55

comfortable in his own skin

33:57

my biggest fear was he would write a

33:59

review and if he if he thought he was

34:00

garbage

34:02

he's earned his right to call it garbage

34:04

and he would have even though i'm family

34:06

he would have entered one star and say

34:08

what a waste of time that was

34:11

but his review on amazon talks about him

34:14

being unable to put it down

34:16

having delivered so many performance

34:18

management interventions

34:20

for the time when he was a consultant

34:22

pwc

34:24

uh talks about never engaged with

34:26

performance management or leadership

34:28

content like this in the past

34:30

breath of fresh air i can't remember the

34:32

last time i was able to

34:34

read a book in in one sitting because i

34:36

wanted to

34:38

um and five stars so when his review

34:41

landed

34:42

massive sigh of relief and a highly

34:45

credible

34:46

reaction positive reaction to the book

34:48

and and others have followed suit

34:50

i've i've been really really pleased

34:53

with the

34:53

reaction to it i think what comes across

34:57

is the way that i've constructed it i

34:58

divided it in two things

35:00

but one is about you're the problem

35:02

actually it's not them it's not the team

35:04

members that you should be getting more out of

35:05

it's you what kind of a role model are

35:07

you so book one or part one of the book

35:11

is devoted to you as as boss

35:15

and then book two is it's not you it is

35:17

them

35:18

and these are the performance leadership

35:19

conversations that can be reinvigorated

35:22

the other thing that i try to achieve

35:24

with balance is

35:27

it's either founded on existing research

35:30

existing frameworks that are just good

35:32

in their own accord and stand up to

35:33

scrutiny

35:34

things that i've applied with my own

35:36

success in the past

35:38

and i still and i tell stories of

35:41

successful

35:42

application of everything so it's very

35:44

practical in the in the not only the

35:45

watts

35:46

but the house and where i wasn't

35:49

completely satisfied with the

35:51

original creator's own work i've moved

35:53

it on i hope a nudge or two

35:55

or a notch or two and it's also been

35:59

based

35:59

in field application as well so there's

36:03

lots of first-hand experience

36:04

not just from me but from others the

36:07

last chapter of the book is

36:08

tips from the field where i've gone out

36:10

to a maybe i think from memory 20 of my

36:13

contacts in my network and said if you

36:16

have only one answer to the question

36:18

what's the best most effective

36:20

performance leadership technique you

36:21

could implement

36:22

what would it be after all of your years

36:24

of experience and it was

36:26

another great relief that everybody that

36:28

came back and contributed to the book

36:30

seemed to tie in nicely with my own

36:32

thinking and my own frameworks that i've

36:34

included

36:37

i know you've got a vast i mean you've

36:38

got decades of experience

36:40

when it comes to coaching

36:43

developing working with teams that

36:46

report into you

36:47

going into organizations and working

36:50

with

36:51

teams and team leaders and department

36:54

managers and

36:55

senior team members when it comes to

36:59

listen the techniques the technique but

37:01

the reality is

37:02

that's the easy bit the hard work so to

37:05

speak

37:06

is in the reality of all the stuff that

37:08

we've just been talking about so i know

37:10

that you come to the table

37:12

as a consultant layered up on top of

37:15

actually having been live in the field

37:19

so you've walked the walk you've then

37:22

been able to

37:23

have the level of experience that only a

37:25

consultant can get

37:27

because if you'd have been in as many

37:29

establishment well as many organizations

37:32

as i know

37:32

you and i have been in but you've been

37:34

in in particular you'd be fundamentally

37:36

unemployable if that was your actual cv

37:38

you know in terms of where you'd be able

37:40

to get access

37:42

i never wanted to think of it like that

37:43

before thanks

37:45

same here right you know how many people

37:47

how many people have you worked for this year

37:49

you know that would that wouldn't work

37:50

wouldn't it but so you come

37:52

laden with i've done it i've trained it

37:56

i've been into multiple organizations

38:00

hundreds of well it's thousands of

38:02

people now which is

38:04

and i i don't think this works i

38:07

i absolutely have all the evidence that

38:10

is that i'm privy to to say that if you

38:13

do one plus one then you will get two

38:15

and and i think that comes across

38:17

really clearly and and i know that for a

38:19

fact

38:20

and so yeah because the science and the

38:22

framework and the model

38:24

it won't do the work for you you can

38:27

only lean on the framework as a handrail

38:30

to some as a crutch to lean on but it

38:32

will never do the work for you so it's

38:34

about with what craft and what are

38:36

what elegance what skill will you show

38:38

up with

38:39

in the name of performance leadership

38:41

and i think that's something that

38:42

we both talk about that but i have a

38:44

real passion about which is this word

38:46

craft

38:47

and it's that sense of the

38:51

it doesn't matter what team i walk into

38:53

senior teams in particular where my

38:55

energy and focus goes to

38:57

everybody understands what feedback is

39:00

everybody does it

39:02

and they're all they're all relatively

39:04

appalling at it

39:06

and they can be quite good at it down

39:08

the line you know

39:10

as a direct report of mine and the

39:13

answer to that usually is well that's because they've

39:15

got to listen to you because you've got

39:17

the positional power

39:18

but i'm particularly interested in

39:20

performance leadership

39:21

as we now call it when it comes to peers

39:25

and it comes to stakeholders and it

39:27

comes to

39:28

people up the line where they don't have

39:31

to listen to you

39:32

from a position of subservience but

39:35

actually bringing that application to

39:36

that and maybe that's

39:38

uh you know that's another factor in

39:40

another conversation so listen

39:42

i'm i'm alert to time and

39:45

um you know in terms of you know you and

39:47

i we can disappear down a thousand

39:49

rabbit holes right

39:51

easily i'm particularly interested into

39:54

what's happened to the door behind you

39:57

was there supposed to be a door in that

39:58

door oh well there was yeah

40:00

we we bought this house about a year ago

40:03

and it

40:04

and there's a cupboard in there which

40:05

you can clearly see

40:07

um but i just thought it looked nicer

40:09

and of course it's

40:10

one of those jobs that i want to get

40:11

around to filling in where the door

40:13

hinges you

40:14

used to be in painting but i haven't yet

40:16

um i haven't done that i haven't done

40:18

the decoration around that

40:20

uh so yeah that's where i store all my

40:22

office supplies

40:25

there we go randomness at its best so

40:27

listen as always kevin

40:29

absolute uh joy to talk to you

40:32

um as we do most days but anyway

40:35

uh good to capture one on video i'm

40:37

gonna press the end button

40:39

uh your book performance leadership 2.0

40:44

obviously on amazon i'll put a link to

40:47

it in the

40:48

description on the podcast episode as

40:51

well so

40:51

people can just link to it directly and

40:55

um i'll also put a link to you for

40:58

linkedin

40:59

so again people connect and say hi if

41:02

they

41:02

if they want to on that note um

41:06

i'll the press to stop button will stay

41:08

on just for a few minutes and have a chat

41:10

and uh thank you for coming on

41:12

leadership bytes kevin

41:14

well god just before you do press stop

41:16

on the record button

41:17

i just want to say two thank yous thank

41:20

you for having me on

41:21

and being willing to uh dedicate one of

41:23

your podcasts

41:25

to me and my book that's very very

41:27

generous of you i really appreciate it

41:29

and the other thing is to thank you for

41:31

the overwhelming difference and impact

41:33

of a positive nature that you've had on

41:35

my career

41:36

i know that you've said that we've been

41:38

working together for you your mind was

41:39

saying 10 years

41:40

we've been we've having a work

41:42

relationship probably 20

41:44

but i don't know if you remember this

41:46

but after i asked for voluntary

41:48

redundancy from royal bank of scotland

41:50

insurance

41:51

i felt like i learned enough about

41:53

myself to to go self-employed and start

41:55

up on my own

41:56

and that's what i've been doing since

41:59

but

41:59

one of the occasions you got in touch

42:01

was to say you you might be right for us

42:03

can you can you come along and have a chat

42:05

and the original chat just wasn't right

42:07

for me in terms of the timing

42:08

um and then you got in touch about six

42:11

months maybe even 12 months after that

42:13

and we got together again and this time

42:14

it was right in terms

42:16

of look feel what the relationship could

42:18

be

42:19

and i've never looked back and i know i

42:22

got to thank you for

42:23

sponsoring on my first being my sponsor

42:26

to get me on my first lead

42:27

major leadership development program so

42:30

it just feels that this is another

42:32

platform i have to express my gratitude

42:34

to you thank you

42:37

that's very much appreciated thank you

42:39

very much

42:40

on that note thank you sir and

42:44

stay on the line caller take care kevin

42:46

thank you guys

42:55

bye-bye