1:05

So today I'm here with Matt wicking.

1:07

Matt is a facilitator, activist and artists, and a passionate advocate for the connections between the personal, the political, the natural, and the cultural.

1:17

His current mix of work includes hosting and speaking at purpose-driven event.

1:22

Facilitating critical conversations, running environmental leadership programs, training not-for-profits in the art of pitching for support and providing sustainability advice to arts and cultural organizations.

1:34

Matt is also a singer and a songwriter with the Melbourne band, The General Assembly, where his music acts as a creative, vital response to living in an unsustainable culture.

1:47

Welcome to the podcast, Matt.

1:48

Thanks Kate.

1:51

So you have this amazing kind of collection of things that you do.

1:56

How did you come to create such a wonderful collection?

2:03

I think I just found myself here by following my nose as I went.

2:07

Yeah, I started out my career as a sustainability consultant.

2:10

I was working full-time for an organization, helping them green, their organizations, practice everything from reporting.

2:18

Recycling to the culture. And when I left that job, I started working freelance and I guess just building relationships, working with good people and taking work as it came and following my nose too.

2:32

Yeah. What interested me, what lit me up and what I felt like I could be useful at.

2:37

Mm. And so how does the artist in you come into you?

2:43

It's it's a good question. I'm increasingly finding that I'm finding interesting ways to blend the different parts of my work.

2:53

So I think the things used to sit separately. So I was in a band and that was off to the side.

2:57

And then I had my, you know, sustainability work I would do.

3:02

But as I've started to build more of a unique finding unique path for myself, And unique roles.

3:08

I'm finding, I'm getting invited to bring my creative work into my other practice and I'm finding opportunities where I can see, you know slots for it.

3:18

So whereas I might've just got up and spoken at an event now I can get up and I can speak, but I can also sing, or I can tell a semi-fictional story in a creative way and weave all those things together.

3:30

As a way of making a point, maybe better than I might otherwise be able to.

3:34

Yeah. Yeah. What makes that work really important in today's world?

3:41

I'm telling you it's important.

3:42

Yeah let's assume.

3:45

I think it's important, particularly bringing creativity to what we do.

3:51

And I think it's important for me to hold on to the thread of myself as an artist in whatever work I'm doing and a creative, because we, I think we sort of see ourselves in a way through our technology through our tools.

4:07

And we see ourselves as rational creatures who process the world in a cognitive manner, make sense of things and make decisions that.

4:20

Now the science tells us in knowledge and experience, the world does this.

4:23

It's not really the full truth of it. That we're also social beings.

4:26

We're emotional beings. We make sense of the world through myth, through story, through song and through imagination metaphor, but we don't leave heaps of space for that stuff.

4:39

You know, work worlds particularly.

4:42

We tend to see that as something as a, of a specialist role.

4:45

Artists do that, or people who work in the arts industry take responsibility for that.

4:51

But you know, what, if we all thought of ourselves as creative beings, what if we saw ourselves as what we really are, which is emotional social creatures who have complex needs beautiful, but limited faculties and capacities who are flooded in every moment by information.

5:11

Yeah. Sensory information and need to make sense of that.

5:14

And so I guess the shorter answer might be humans evolved with story and with song and with these creative forms, because they help us make sense of the infinitely complex world.

5:26

And so to throw them away Now at a time when we've got a lot of complex things to tackle would seem to be pretty stupid.

5:34

Yeah. I love that. You know, where we're becoming more and more complex and yeah, we don't have those same rituals and things to bring us back to ourselves in the same way, do we?

5:46

Yeah. I mean, whether we're becoming more complex, I don't know that the world we're creating around is.

5:51

Yeah.

5:52

And I guess we're part of that. So we're constructing worlds around us that are increasingly complex and, you know, they talk about the financial system, for example, that there's only a small number of people who really understand how that works.

6:05

And, and maybe no one really understands how it fully works, you know?

6:08

And then you think of technology. Most of us don't know how it actually works.

6:10

We know when it's not working, how knowing that is.

6:14

And we know, you know, specialists know how that, but yeah, so the, the world is incredibly complex.

6:19

Number of people and the number of possibilities and, and things we're having to grapple with and that our institutions need to manage.

6:27

It's so complex. And so just try and do that without the tools that the human species evolved over thousands and thousands of generations to do that very thing,of making sense of complexity, and making sense of what we can't otherwise integrate.

6:46

Seems like, yeah, it seems to me that that's a good thing to do.

6:49

Yeah. I'm reading the book at the moment.

6:52

The power of ritual by Casper, I'm going to get is sent in wrong, Ter Kuile something.

6:58

Sorry if I butchered that to anyone out there who's who's read his books or to, to Casper.

7:02

And it talks a lot about the fact that we've, you know, we don't have the same spiritual practices that we used to.

7:08

We're becoming so much more of a secular society and there's just not a place for us to connect in that way and to create that link into the complexity and, and deal with all that complex information we're trying to process from like that kind of almost that existential perspective.

7:26

That's cool. Yeah. I'm no expert in ritual, but I'm increasingly interested in it because maybe I'll borrow that book from them when you're finished.

7:33

Because it seems that ritual is another beautiful example of something.

7:38

You look back at human cultures, there's always ritual there, and whether it's the ritual of religious service once a week or whatever, to remind us of our morals and the things that are important to us, or whether it's the ritual of at a certain time of year going out and celebrating the harvest or the moon or the, whatever it is.

7:55

Those things are there for a reason. And they're partly there because we don't really We, we need them to help us make sense and to work and to build community and relationships and relationships with each other, with ourselves and with the more than human world in a sustainable way.

8:10

So, yeah, I'm totally fascinated by that topic. I think it's really interesting and I'm interested in how it might fit into more of my work as I go.

8:17

I mean, having seen a bit of your work and for those listening Matt does all kinds of amazing things, but I've been lucky enough to see Matt perform some what do you call it?

8:26

Creative, like your Field Recording?

8:30

Yeah, I, I, it's sort of a, it's a form of storytelling.

8:33

I get up and I lie for half an hour basically.

8:37

I get up with my band playing music behind me as a live soundtrack.

8:41

I get up and I tell a story that at first seems like it could be real and does have a bunch of truth woven through it, but that starts to become more and more fantastical.

8:51

And I incorporate magic realism and poetry and song into that.

8:55

That's what I call it.

8:57

'Cause it's always like when I've seen you perform, it's, it's almost ritualistic in the sense that it has a degree of intention and kind of a reverence in it.

9:08

And I would say often it's kind of the reverence to nature.

9:11

In, in the work that you do, do you, do you feel that when you, when you perform?

9:17

Yeah, definitely. We, I mean that particular performance that you're talking about, we did in a like a theater space.

9:22

So we brought a literal truckload of plants in to bring the nature into the room and to help trigger people's imaginations to be in that forest space that I was talking about.

9:31

But yeah, that was the underlying theme, absolutely about biodiversity and and loss and grief and sadness and love.

9:38

And I'm, you know, sometimes people ask me, oh, why are you an environmentalist?

9:44

Or how did you become an environmentalist? And I think that's a silly question.

9:49

I don't tell them that. Of course I just give an answer, but you know, why aren't we all, what we would call environmentalist?

9:53

Why do we have a category for environmentalist? That's, that's crazy.

9:56

You know, like, I'm really not the oxygen. Of course you are, you need it to breathe and to live.

10:01

And yeah. It's pretty telling.

10:05

And so I guess having grown up as we all do in this world where we're causing a lot of environmental problems, that's something that I'm trying to reconcile my life, my existence, my work with the larger being that we're all a part of.

10:23

And it, it comes through in that work and everything I do.

10:28

What's made that the thing that you rally around in your work and your life.

10:35

The, the fact that it's the thing that we stand on and live from and eat from.

10:41

It's the, it's the beginning and end of everything.

10:43

It seems like a pretty good place to land.

10:47

I feel like if you keep asking questions, you end up there. Or you end up in the spiritual realm, I guess, or, both.

10:52

And I'm interested in both where those two things come together, but yeah, I don't know.

10:56

It's just seems I, you know, if I'm honest there's a bunch of privilege in there.

11:00

There's the fact that I, you know, I'm not in a situation where I have to you know, we know that when people can't feed their family or when someone's living in the threat of violence or something, That it's very hard to give much of a shit about something like climate change, which is, you know, off in the distance and or biodiversity loss or, or even perhaps the local environmental problems you might be facing.

11:21

So the flip side of that is I have to acknowledge that I'm able to spend time on this.

11:26

I'm very fortunate to be able to pay attention to it, to read about it, to think about it because it means that, or it's a consequence of that privilege.

11:33

And. I'm grateful for that.

11:36

And I, it makes me more determined to focus on and do it as well as I can.

11:40

Yeah. And to weave the justice elements, the social elements of the broader environmental picture in there, as much as I can as well, which I'm thrilled to see is something that's happening more and more widely.

11:50

You know, the school strikes students, the young activists for climate change with extinction rebellion.

11:55

And so on. I'm much more aware that I think their parents and their parents were started the environment.

11:59

You know, last century. That justice has to go along with environmental change.

12:08

Mm. Yeah. I love that. You take quite a different approach to activism.

12:17

How, how would you describe your approach to being an activist?

12:21

I mean, I do some of the classic stuff like that if you say this is an activist, you know, and you drew a little picture, you would say, well, they go to a rally, they've got a plaque out in their hand and they do that thing.

12:29

I do some of that stuff myself as an individual joining community events to push for change, but I don't think that's the best use of my skills and abilities.

12:40

It's a good place to put my body sometimes because it adds numbers, but I've realized that there's other things that I do that I'm good at or effective ad or that people want from me and that I enjoy doing like facilitation like hosting events, like performing and like making creative pieces like that storytelling work that we were just talking about that those ways of doing activism make a lot of sense to me.

13:03

So I'm working at the moment with a climate activist organization and I'm working with them over as a matter of months, helping them.

13:10

Sharpen their strategy. That feels like a good role for me to play.

13:14

And if I can be inserted into their work for that period of time, help them pivot focused and move forward, happier and more confidently into the future, then I can leave them and I might come back some other time for something else, but that's a really good use of my time, I think.

13:29

And if I can use my creative Abilities and passion to create, I don't know, deeper moments of resonance for people around this stuff to help create a shift.

13:39

Then that's great. I spoke at like a, a leadership course last year and it was quite a mixed audience.

13:47

And one of the participants, apparently you had a room.

13:49

Because I think because I used a storytelling approach because I didn't come at it like didactically, you know, in your face with the here's the stats about why everything's going to hell and it's your fault.

13:59

Because I went more with the, I guess, more subtle or abstract approach to storytelling and song, and it really affected a few people in the group.

14:07

And I know that at one or two who, you know, they're working in industries where they typically wouldn't think about this stuff.

14:12

But it really got a bit shook up.

14:14

And so I think there's amazing potential in that. You know, I've played shows before where someone would come up to you, you're just playing at a pub in Melbourne somewhere, and someone would come up afterwards and say, oh, that was beautiful.

14:23

You don't know me, but this is, you know, I just wanted to come and say, thank you.

14:26

And I've been sitting there crying for the last half hour and I'm going home now and I'm going to change some things about my life.

14:32

And like, that's very moving and amazing, and that's the power of what music can do and what the arts can do and what these other forms of.

14:40

Engaging with the world and with the issues that matter can do.

14:43

And so I'm really interested in how I bring those things to things that I think matter.

14:47

So if you were to give advice to a leader out there, or a business owner, someone who is wanting to do better in the world, wanting to do better through their business and their work.

14:58

What are the kinds of things that they might be able to do to bring some of a little bit of Matt to their lives?

15:06

I'd say don't do that, but it's a nice question.

15:10

I mean, I think that's, you know, I ran.

15:14

I've run leadership courses for some years.

15:16

That's one of the sort of things that I do at the moment every now and again, I'll get invited to or I'll apply to host a program of transformation, growth development for leaders in the environmental space.

15:29

And I really love that work.

15:32

And through that work, I think one of my roles is to help people to be more of themselves, like bring more of themselves.

15:40

And I think when you're like, when you're being creative in inverted commas, I think a big part of that is your bringing elements of yourself in unique ways together that maybe aren't ordinarily brought together and you're probably stretching the boundaries a bit of what people might expect of you.

15:57

And so I would definitely encourage that. I'd be interested in, you know, What's the version of you that shows up to your work every day?

16:07

And what's the, of the version of you that, that you're leaving at home or you're not bringing in?

16:12

And yeah, I mean, that would be different for everyone, but I think that's a starting point for all of us because we have a sense.

16:20

And I know you, and I've talked about this before that the sort of the smaller I, that we see ourselves as that we identify as Is not the full picture.

16:29

And we're painting in a way from a limited palette of of options of ways that we can be in the world.

16:35

And there's actually a whole lot more that's possible for all of us.

16:39

So yeah, I mean, that's, that's not specifically, I suppose, about creating environmental change.

16:43

So the, the side of this that relates to that would be, I would encourage...

16:47

I heard someone say one time, If you want to be now talking to a group of artists and they said, if you want to be a political artist, then go out and be political and learn about.

17:02

Politics and get involved in that and be an artist and the two will come together.

17:05

Naturally. I thought that was really interesting.

17:08

I hadn't thought about it like that before. Can't remember who said it now, but maybe the same goes for, you know, integrating or thinking about how to integrate the environment or care for the planet, our living planet into your work, into your business.

17:21

Then we need to form a relationship with place with land, with country.

17:27

And there's lots of ways to do that. And so that's probably a good starting place.

17:31

And then that love that care, that relationship will inform you.

17:37

Yeah. I really love that. The idea that we don't actually have to force the things to happen, that, you know, we take the two things and, you know, we, if we pour ourselves into work that is aligned to who we are and that's the stuff that we're here to do.

17:53

And then we have these interests in whether it's the environment or social justice or whatever it might be that they're going to infiltrate into the work.

18:03

And I mean, there's, there's so many great examples. Like, you know, even just, I think about the people that I follow on Instagram and, you know, there's these amazing businesses out there that, you know, their, their values are so deeply seeded into their business, that that's part of who they are and it becomes part of the work.

18:18

And, you know, I think we can think that we need to do these big sweeping great gestures to, to create change.

18:26

But actually I think that you're right, the best way to create change is probably from where...

18:30

well, the thing that makes us most unique and different, and rather than trying to do someone else's version of activism or environmentalism or whatever it is to do out, to do our own version.

18:42

Yes, that's right. Yeah.

18:44

It makes me think of that quote. I'm going to get it slightly wrong probably, but you know, don't ask what the world needs ask what makes you come alive because what the world needs is people who've come alive.

18:53

So that relates to the part about bringing more of your whole self to what you do and finding your authentic way to, to create positive change.

19:01

And then the other thing that, what you're just saying there makes me think of is yes.

19:04

If like if I was speaking to him, a male working in an organization who wanted to push for better outcomes for gender equity, then, I mean, I feel like the advice would have to be.

19:18

Go and listen to some women and ask them about their experience in the workplace.

19:22

Listen to your wife and your mother, and like people in your life and listen, and listen and listen and, and come to understand that experience and the differences of that experience.

19:31

And then you will not be able to help, but start to see that everywhere around you and see that inequity around you and have that start to infuse your work.

19:39

That's not to say there aren't great suggestions and recommendations for how to do that work already.

19:46

But if it comes from inside you in that really authentic deep way, I think you're going to get more long-lasting and sustainable change.

19:53

Mm. Yeah, it's interesting too, when we think about the causes that we're kind of called to rally around when they pop up in the media and things like the black lives matter and me too, and you know, all the things that have popped up.

20:07

I always get really interested when stuff like that happens because you see kind of the call to action in this very public way.

20:16

So like how you stepping up and supporting this and whatever, when a lot of people are actually already supporting things very much in their own ways in the background.

20:27

And I don't know, and what I'm trying to get at here, but it made me think of this as that there's the getup and kind of, it's almost like the, the online version of holding the placard and showing, you know, having your body there in the conversation, but then there's the really having your body there in the conversation in the sense that it's baked into what you do, rather than just a social media post or an action that you take once in awhile.

20:53

Yeah or a public statement from your company or whatever it is.

20:56

Yeah. It has to be more than just lip service and words.

20:59

And that, although that can be important as well.

21:03

Of course the statements. Yeah, I think that's right.

21:05

I think, I mean, fundamentally on both those issues, you just mentioned from gender inequity and me too, and, you know, violence against women and so on and from systemic racism, white supremacy and black lives matter.

21:21

We're obviously not doing enough, like well away from doing enough, aren't we?

21:26

And so Any response that isn't deep and systemic is not meeting the urgency or scale of the problem properly.

21:34

So I think that makes total sense what you're saying to me that, you know, it's, it's good to respond online, share your commitment, but it has to be followed through.

21:44

And it's, I mean, it's going to be interesting to see how people follow through from what was a big year, last year around right.

21:50

How do we all make sure that we keep those conversations going?

21:52

How do we keep each other honest, you know.

21:55

And the systems that we're a part of will pull us away from that stuff.

21:58

I mean, I feel like that's true for the environmental conversation as well.

22:01

It's the same with any of the systemic challenges of our lives because you're swimming upstream by trying to create change.

22:09

If you don't. Connect with others and paddle hard or build a boat or whatever you got to do for them, for the metaphor to work, then you get washed back the other way, like that's and that feels like cruising.

22:21

It feels easy, I suppose.

22:24

Yeah. That's such an interesting point that you made about swimming upstream to create change.

22:30

And I think this is one of the reasons why change makers.

22:34

You know, whether you're creating change on a large whatever scale environmental issues, or you're creating change at a small kind of local or micro level, it can feel really hard and it can feel like often, you know, you're pushing shit up hill.

22:51

And how, how do you, as someone who's trying to create change in pretty much everything you do, how do you personally deal with that resistance that you constantly having to come up against when you creating change?

23:07

Yeah. I mean, I think it's hard, isn't it? The reality for me is that a lot of people have it a lot harder in their lives.

23:13

So I think that's one thing to, I just have to acknowledge there that, but in terms of what you're saying but yeah, that wears down.

23:20

Yeah. There's a funny, brilliant picture.

23:22

I think the picture is actually from the eighties or something. It's an old lady holding a plaque out at a protest and it says, I can't believe I still have to protect that's the shit.

23:30

And you just get a sense of this woman. Who's been, you know, protesting since the fricking sixties or whatever.

23:36

I can't believe we still have to have this damn conversation and I, I understand that fury and frustration and I mean bloody hell that, I mean, that's what I mean when I say other people have it harder because I'm trying to push for change, but I'm not personally as effected by some of the changes that I think is needed, you know, as other people are.

23:56

And so I can't imagine what it would be like to be a First Nations person in this country and to, to be thinking, you know, very reasonably, if you felt like I can't believe we still have to, you know, fight for this shit.

24:08

Even just the basic respect please stop killing us.

24:12

And numbers that are, you know, well above the regular population.

24:16

And you know, for women in workplaces and in lives in general, like that just, ah, I don't know.

24:22

And so the, I guess the question is how do you deal with that?

24:26

For my piece of it, I I've worked with people from all sorts of backgrounds and Doing all sorts of different work.

24:33

And I know we find, I find with those groups that celebrating wins as you have them can be really beneficial.

24:39

Keeping an eye on the bigger picture. Knowing that you can't do everything and that's not your role to try and do everything.

24:49

And for me, with the environmental challenges that the world's facing.

24:54

I really had to get to myself to a point where I...

25:00

you know, we don't know whether we're going to turn the ship around or not, and we can't know that and you can't predict the future.

25:07

And so it for me now, either way I mean, frankly, either way, I'm not happy with the direction that's going, but either way, if we don't, can't turn it around.

25:16

And if the, if it's heading in the worst direction possible, then I need to find a way for myself to be okay in that, not okay with that, but okay in that.

25:25

So I think this is where things like mindfulness practice meditation having a strong community, being connected to the earth and learning from older cultures.

25:37

Wisdom from older people of how to do that work.

25:39

I was reading a little bit of Braiding Sweetgrass recently, and I think you, and I've talked about that book and the idea that Robin Wall Kimmerer shares in that, or the way I understand it is that even a wounded world still gives us everything.

25:54

She feeds us and, you know, it gives us everything, all the people that we love in the world.

25:59

They come from the living planet.

26:03

And so our first job then is to be grateful and like finding, I used to think that gratitude was like a bit I dunno, light or something.

26:12

I don't know. I have a take ongratitude, I'd be interested to know more actually about how you see it.

26:16

But yeah, I used to think, and it would come up a lot in leadership courses I'd run and people would talk about having a gratitude journal and stuff.

26:22

And I think it was. I'd like to say, great.

26:25

That sounds like a good idea, but I didn't really understand it.

26:27

And I've started to tune into my gratitude recently and I've found it profoundly supportive in insulating from the sharp edges of stuff that's going on in the world.

26:41

And I'm surprised by that. Do you know much about gratitude?

26:45

Have you.

26:46

I've dived in quite a bit well I I've had an interest in you through kind of reading about various positive psychology things and through some of my coaching courses, there's been quite a bit on gratitude.

26:58

And one of the things I find really interesting is that, you know, cause a lot of positive psychology research gets very data driven and data heavy.

27:06

And there's some really interesting nuances around, you know, doing gratitude journals once a day once every three days or, you know, once a week and you know, that that can actually make a difference.

27:18

You can actually overdue gratitude. And there's a point where it tips into being, not uneffective, but less effective if you do it every day versus, I can't remember the exact stat, but let's call it every three days or once a week or something like that.

27:30

And it was so just from my own experience, I think it's the depth at which you do the gratitude, which is more important.

27:37

And I think he can do gratitude at a I'm going to sit down here and try and come up with three things that I'm grateful for today.

27:43

And tick, tick, tick, it's like a comes a box ticking exercise.

27:47

And I think you can apply this to anything, any time, something that's supposed to be meaningful and, you know, values driven or purpose driven or whatever it is, becomes a box ticking exercises, it loses that meaning.

28:00

And so for me, what, what, talking to what you're saying is that when you have created a really deep connection, a proper connection of gratitude then than it is really meaningful.

28:13

That's great. I think you've just put your finger on exactly the, the distinction that I didn't understand when I first thought about it.

28:20

I used to think it was sort of about making that list.

28:22

But now I can see that if I just ground myself in the feeling of gratitude, even if it's not about a specific thing.

28:29

And it could even just be like, when I, like, if I wake up in the morning and I feel comfortable and safe in my room, just that feeling without even going it's about having a safe house to live in or something that feeling like does a whole lot of beautiful work for my nervous system.

28:43

More else besides I suppose.

28:45

Yeah. I had a day, the other day actually, where it was just one of those, you know, everything was going right.

28:51

Like all the things. And I just had this moment where I was feeling more myself than I have in a long time.

28:58

And I couldn't even really place my finger on what it was about it and, and why, but in that moment, kind of that coming home to self, I had this real moment of gratitude because again could feel it.

29:11

And it was like, oh, and I think it's sometimes too, when you have a comparison, as well as like I've, you know, I think a lot of people felt really grateful for their you know, the simple pleasures of normal life when they came out of lockdown here in Melbourne.

29:28

Because what you don't have makes you appreciate that which you do have even more.

29:33

So yeah, that just, I think that contrast as well, it helps us really tune into gratitude in a really nice way.

29:41

And you can attend to it at different levels too.

29:44

I like, so that we probably all had that.

29:47

A lot of people would have had that experience that you're talking about coming out of lockdown.

29:50

And the first time you catch up with friends in person and it felt really lovely.

29:54

There's a level of processing or integration of that good feeling and that gratitude that I th I feel like now I'm starting to learn, makes quite a difference for how much it helps your resilience or your feeling of stability or goodness or whatever.

30:11

Yeah, that's interesting. Hmm.

30:16

So we've gone off on a bit of a tangent, but a beautiful one, nonetheless.

30:24

I want to kind of tap back into something that you just said about being okay in that versus okay with that.

30:36

Yeah, that's good. Isn't it? I just made that up, but it made sense at the time.

30:40

Put that one in the book when you're write it.

30:43

Yeah, it's a little bit like coming to terms with the idea that you will die.

30:48

I think that you don't have to be happy about that idea.

30:51

You want to love your life and the beauty of it while you're in it and be grateful for it in someone and so forth.

30:57

However, it is a reality and finding peace with that reality helps you, I think to have a more calm, effortless, happy, fulfilling life.

31:10

So yeah, I would see that as being okay.

31:13

In the reality that I'm going to die and the same then goes for the planet for whatever that's happening to the planet, whether we have, you know, however long we have left of stable civilization to support the humankind or, you know, we don't know what's going to unfold.

31:30

We know that our economies and societies are fundamentally predicated on or built on a habitable, comfortable climate system.

31:40

And that's been challenged in really fundamental ways at the moment.

31:43

Texas just went through a freezing blast that polar vortex is playing more of a role more often, and these extreme weather events that like challenge our infrastructure and throw us out.

31:55

How do you, how do you find a calm in the center of those storms?

32:00

As they get bigger, as they get more impactful and as they impact other things?

32:04

They start to impact poverty and, you know, the connectedness of communities and things like that.

32:09

I think in a way that if I start there for myself and I would like to be okay in whatever comes.

32:14

And I'd also like to be not okay with whatever comes, because that means that I'm going to be pushing for the best version possible for the best, most number of people and most number of other species and ecosystems.

32:26

Mm. How do you, or how does one in your opinion, find that balance between okay in, not okay with?

32:39

I don't think it's a balance. I think it's just both together maybe that's a balance, but I'm not trying to find the right dose of each two.

32:48

So it doesn't tip the scales or anything. I think they can actually go together.

32:51

I don't know. It would be kidding if I said I fully understand it.

32:53

But I know that when I've got a good meditation practice, when I'm spending time in nature, when I feel connected to a community that I have a sense of belonging in, those things that are fundamental human needs ground me in a way and help me to feel a sense of okayness with whatever's going on around me.

33:13

And when it's the other way around and when I'm not getting any sleep and when I'm overwhelmed by work and so on and so forth, or something's happening in an important relationship that is uncomfortable, little things will tip me over the edge.

33:24

And yeah, so I know that there's these practices that ground me, and I'm trying to integrate those more and more into my life as I learn about them and learn about myself.

33:36

So I think that is then the, the roots of the tree that go deep into the earth and that, you know, a stable, no matter what comes and what happens.

33:47

And then not being okay with things I think is about, and maybe there's a nicer way to frame that even.

33:52

But yeah, I think it's about wanting better than, for as many people in other spaces as possible and living systems That feels like a good life's work.

34:04

Yeah, it's, it's almost about finding...

34:08

cause you can go either way can't you, you can kind of not be okay with everything that's going on in the world and, you know, fight it and rally against it.

34:17

And at the same time, not be okay with it and with the situation you're living in.

34:25

And that can have a really negative impact on you as an individual.

34:30

you get torn up inside. And I see a lot of activists burning up and change makers and you name it.

34:36

Yeah. And then on the flip side, you can be like, I'm just, you know, one with nature and you can go the opposite direction.

34:44

And you see that I think in some of the spiritual communities, not everyone of course, but you know, Going the other way where I'm, you know, I'm not going to fight, I'm not gonna do anything.

34:54

It's peace, love and harmony. And

34:57

yeah. And if I harmonize my, I'm conscious I'm being a bit facetious, but if I harmonize my chakras, then the world, the world would be fine.

35:06

Yeah. Because everything's connected.

35:08

And so I plus B equals C.

35:12

Yeah. I think that that's There's massive hole there that's you could possibly go and get lost in, and it's sort of a cop-out space.

35:23

And I think that for any of us who have grown up with you know, safe home, roof over our head, enough money for food and the things that we might enjoy in life, then I think we have just a natural responsibility to each other as communal beings who share this beautiful living planet, to find ways to support others.

35:49

I mean, that's just fundamentally feels like it's the right thing to do in quite a basic way.

35:54

It's a sort of thing. You'd teach your kids, you know, if if you've got more food than you need at lunch, then give it to Kylie who's doesn't have enough.

36:02

You know, like that's just what we do and what we should do.

36:06

And so then to find some sort of convoluted spiritual rationale for not doing that seems pretty off to me.

36:15

And I would rather go a different way, which is to find that peace, find that tranquility, find that harmony, know that that does, yes, radiate to the rest of the world.

36:23

And it does that, especially so if I go out into the world and I listened to the world, all of the beings of the world, the trees, the rivers, the other people.

36:31

Especially those who don't look like me and who have different life experiences.

36:35

And then I let myself be affected by what I see by what I hear.

36:39

And find out if I can play some kind of positive role in that.

36:47

And that to me feels, yeah, it feels like it's some way of fulfilling that responsibility.

36:54

Responsibility is a funny word though. Cause that feels like something that your parents teach, isn't it?

36:59

Yeah. It's a totally, it's a dork term.

37:01

Isn't it? Or it's like, yeah, it feels like it's been imposed on you, but I'm not thinking of it in that way.

37:07

It's the ability to respond.

37:09

Yeah. Right.

37:10

Yeah. That's a Fred Kaufman thing. I'm not taking credit for that,

37:13

but like response ability kind of. Yeah.

37:15

That's nice. And I think that's almost, if we take away the word, perhaps, because it does have some baggage, let's be honest.

37:22

Then it's I think that more basic idea of, you know, you're not here, I'm not here.

37:29

Because of myself. I didn't do anything to, to be alive.

37:33

And all of the beautiful things that life offers are not mostly by my efforts.

37:39

And I'm not an individual floating in space. I'm a part of communities and family and ecosystems of friends and spaces and places and land and so on, that is all intertwined and connected.

37:52

Yeah. Living in a way that doesn't honor or reflect that is kind of just not honest response to reality, I think.

38:03

Yeah. So whether that's ethical or responsible, I don't really care.

38:06

It just feels like it's right.

38:09

That's probably a beautiful segue into my podcast question, which I ask my guests.

38:16

So how do you show up as a Leading Being in life work in business?

38:21

Can you explain to me again, and this might be interesting for people listening too.

38:25

Like when you talk about a Leading Being, what does that mean to you?

38:30

I can, but before

38:31

I do, I'd like to see it without, without me describing what I think it is.

38:34

What, what, what would it mean to you if you were to create your own definition of a Leading Being?

38:39

Hmm. That didn't work to buy me some thinking time, but I didn't know.

38:42

What would it, can you ask the question one more time? What would it,

38:46

so why don't I ask you first? What would being a Leading Being mean to you\?

38:50

Hmm.

38:51

I think it's. I like the name.

38:56

That's why I'm interested in what you think or what it means to you.

38:59

But I, for me, it means, it brings me back.

39:06

It's quite, it feels like a centered kind of a feeling.

39:08

The idea of being like how I am being as I lead.

39:12

So. For me, that's sort of like, what's most important in that then is the place I'm coming from as I lead.

39:22

For me, that's not just an internal question.

39:26

It is that, but then it's also about how I relate to the, you know, the more than human world, the rest of the world, that I'm a part of.

39:33

And I suppose the rest of the human community as well.

39:36

So it's about, it's a relational thing to self others and planet.

39:42

Yeah. And so then for me being doing that well, it's like a form of coming home to those things, to I guess that reality that I was talking about before, about ourselves asenmeshed parts of systems, rather than as individuals isolated in the world And then in a practical way, that means me knowing myself as well as I can.

40:01

And coming to peace with an acceptance of my life.

40:05

And knowing others and knowing place as well.

40:12

And that last bit is something that I'm just feel like I'm scratching the surface of as I get to this point in my life, which is interesting to me.

40:18

I heard recently someone said that child grows up, you know, home and they on a bit of a bit of land.

40:29

And if they don't get to properly say goodbye to that place, then they'll bond less closely with the next place they go to.

40:37

I thought that was so interesting because it made me wonder about what homes I've lived in over the years.

40:43

And I've lived in a few different places and.

40:47

I never had any proper formal sort of saying goodbye.

40:50

And you would say goodbye to a grandparent or a friend or whatever.

40:56

So why don't we say goodbye to these places where we live and spend time and build connection.

41:00

And what did that do to us? If we have that kind of fracture that bond, you know, not properly tied up, zipped up at the end and move on in a healthy way?

41:12

And so, whatever's happened has happened.

41:15

And I'm interested now though, in the places I live and the parts of this continent that I interact with, how do I build a closer, better listening relationship to those places?

41:28

And that would be part of me being a Leading Being, I would say'cause my work has to come from, I want it to come from that healthy, positive relationship with place.

41:39

Yeah, that's really beautiful. I love that. And yeah, I love that idea too, of yeah, saying good bye to place.

41:46

That's really interesting.

41:48

Isn't it? Yeah. It makes me think that we don't know much about ourselves and like our relationship to place.

41:54

For example, like if that's a surprising, there's a what was the book called?

41:59

I can't remember. I read a book recently about Animal intelligence.

42:02

Yep. And the author at the start, it was particularly focused on apes, but the author starts spending most of his life working with apes.

42:09

And he said that when humans are shocked and surprised by the fact that Ravens can do abstract tasks or apes can do X or that, you know, whales live in certain communities and understand certain things in that we might not.

42:24

He said it doesn't show so much about animals, it shows more about our ignorance that we get surprised every bloody time that animals have these intelligences.

42:32

And he said that when you live with them, like he has that, it just becomes part of your known reality.

42:37

And so I think similarly there's, so there's something going on there with the animal world that we're just not seeing most of the time for a lot of us.

42:44

And I think the same with our relationship with some more than human world.

42:47

There's so much possibility there there's so much we're not seeing and not understanding that is quite exciting, really.

42:52

And I wonder how much potential it has for our healing for our learning and so on.

43:00

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I actually just did a walk the other day down at the Mornington peninsula with an organization called Living Culture.

43:08

And they're are run by our First Nations people and they take people out and you know, show us all the, the food that's amongst us and that kind of thing.

43:19

And Lionel, who was amazing, who was running the tour was telling us that you know, our first people, when they used to live off the land, they were some of the oldest living humans in the world, you know, 95, a hundred and living in harmony with nature that, you know, they were.

43:37

Yeah. I mean, that was really old for, for back then.

43:40

And now there it's one of the youngest living cultures in the world because of, oh, well, so many reasons, But, yeah, we've really lost that connection to nature.

43:51

And if we talk about ourselves as kind of, you know, immigrants, essentially from, you know, my parents or grandparents were Austrian in English and I don't know where it were from, but

44:01

English and Scottish, almost six generations.

44:04

Yeah we're so disconnected from the place where we're living, but we're also disconnected from the place of our heritage and not being connected to that culture either.

44:13

And our cultures themselves. Aren't very focused towards those places either other than the places where we are or have come from.

44:20

Yeah. That's so true when culture can play a beautiful role of, and as we're talking about before, ritual and things like that of, of waving us back in.

44:29

Landscapes in place.

44:30

Yeah. Actually coming back to that book, there's a chapter on connecting back to nature and some of the ways that we can do that as in a way that's not kind of necessarily culturally linked or anything like that.

44:42

But I know for me personally, certainly over the last number of years, I've been connecting more and more to my local area and my local Creek and my local parklands, which are kind of like my lifeline into, into nature.

44:58

Living in the middle of the burbs, but having this beautiful little link to, to the natural world, which I try and dive into as much as I can.

45:06

And what's really interesting about that. It's connecting me so much more to my own suburb that I'm feeling less and less like I'm wanting to leave.

45:16

Not so much because of the, the cool cafes, although they're cool as well.

45:20

And the, you know, the good coffee and stuff, but that, that little strip of nature it's just has a really special place in my heart.

45:29

And like, I know where the Kookaburras live and I know all the different bird life and I'm starting to tune into being able to know the different bird calls as well.

45:38

So I can hear something now and go, oh, that's a black cockatoo versus a white cockatoo.

45:43

And like, I know that now because I've spent that time in the area connecting to place.

45:48

And it's just magic to be able to do.

45:52

That's so beautiful. Yeah. I mean, Claire Dunn talks about this sort of stuff quite a bit, and she talks about the fact that even having a sit spot somewhere where you go regularly and sit can be really profound and powerful way of building a relationship with place.

46:06

And I love that. And yeah. If you do move somewhere else, you just have to make sure you say goodbye properly.

46:12

Yes. We'll see you later.

46:15

Yeah. Yeah. It doesn't have to be go back forever. Yeah, totally.

46:18

It reminds me too. There was this actually this great story and I don't know where it's from.

46:23

I'll see if I can dig it up and put it in the show notes, but of I think it was a family who there were architects in the family or something did an experiment where they treated their house, like a member of the family and they would come home and they would say, hi house, how's your day been?

46:38

And they would interact with the house and they tell the house, they loved it.

46:41

And then someone came into the house.

46:44

I'm not sure if it was like a Feng Shui expert or something like that at some point and walked into the house and said, this house, like, has this energy about it.

46:52

Like, I don't know what it is. It was because that they treated the house as though it was a, a real living being.

47:00

Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. That's beautiful.

47:04

I love that. Yeah. How in imagine all the ways that that might affect that family and the way they operate and functioning in the house, how they treat the place.

47:12

Yeah. That's so cool.

47:14

Kind of links in with those. Is it Dr. Imoto, the Japanese water experiment?

47:19

It was an experiment where I'm terrible with names at the moment, but they would put water.

47:25

In a, in a jar or whatever, and you know, some jars they would speak really negative words, like hate or whatever or they'd write them on the jars.

47:32

I don't remember exactly. And then some of them were things like love or beauty, and then they froze water from those jars and the the negative things where all the water froze into ugly kind of patterns and shapes, and the beautiful ones froze into beautiful things.

47:47

And it just kind of goes to show that how much the energy of what was put into things does really matter.

47:55

And that I, I love that idea of animism to the idea that objects and nature and things, they, they do have their own consciousness and their own....

48:05

Yeah.

48:06

Yeah. It's beautiful. And what that does to us.

48:09

I mean, even, even if you imagine that you're one of the laboratory staff who, if you let's say you got tasked with doing, saying that the negative words, that would be such a less nice task for that person as well.

48:22

And they would go away feeling so differently at the end of that day than the person who went in and had the task of giving the nice comments.

48:32

I love that you come back to that because there's, I think that's a really important thing for us to all remember.

48:36

Humans as leaders, as business owners, that the way we interact with people, it doesn't just affect them.

48:44

But it also affects us. You know, if you get angry at someone who cuts you off in traffic and yell at them, it actually affects you just as much, if not more than it affects them.

48:56

And so the way that we're showing up with other humans in our lives totally so important, not just for them, but for us.

49:03

All right.

49:04

Yesterday, I just finished running a youth leadership environment, news environmental leadership program with Yarra ranges council.

49:11

And it was, it was beautiful. There were bunch of young folks who put their hand up to do this program.

49:16

And one of the last activities we did was an appreciation activity where each person they paired up and basically said something that I appreciated about them.

49:25

And then they rotate around and everyone said something to everyone else.

49:28

And it was so lovely. It was really beautiful to be the receiver, but it also just felt really great.

49:32

Like you're saying to give that appreciation to each other and the group was just glowing afterwards.

49:37

It was such a nice experience.

49:39

And it reminded me again, it feels like it's one of those lessons.

49:42

You learn a lot, but of exactly what you're saying, that, you know, we really are affected by that the way we bring ourselves into the world.

49:49

And yes, it has a ripple effect on those around us, but it also, fundamentally shapes our spirit and our nervous system.

49:56

And I think that it's easy to forget that.

50:01

What do you think we can do to remind ourselves?

50:03

Hmm. We probably need rituals and I'll find out more about that when I borrow that book from you.

50:10

Yeah, I think I think when we have deep experiences of that and we, we note in ourselves, then we're more likely to keep doing it.

50:21

So I had as what you and I have talked about, the fact that I had chronic fatigue for a few years and I'm recovering now, thankfully.

50:29

But one of the things I learned from that was that One of the, one of the aspects of helping myself get better was to not be always thinking about my fatigue.

50:39

And that was really hard because when you're feeling horrible, like you're constantly pulled back to thinking about it.

50:45

And even when you start to feel better, you're still tuning into, oh, look, I'm feeling better.

50:49

And B you're still thinking about your health.

50:52

And I realized that for my system, that constant vigilance was actually unhealthy..

51:00

And even if it was vigilance of me positively checking in and noting that I was healthy, it's still me being on alert.

51:10

And that I didn't quite understand that until I had like a full experience of it and spent time with it, which I was forced to do with this illness.

51:17

And so I think I've, I feel like I've sort of integrated to a certain extent, that idea into my very being.

51:24

And so now I, I notice when I get If I get frustrated with something, then I notice the effect that it has ripple through my system.

51:32

And I noticed I'll be more tired that afternoon or whatever it is.

51:35

So I think I've become more attuned to that.

51:37

And I feel like through mindfulness and through reflective practice and through attending to our bodies and tuning into what's happening in our bodies, as we are either way in the world, then we will, we, we grow through that.

51:54

I love that you finished on reflective practice.

51:56

There it's something I'm so passionate about.

51:59

I think as humans in the world, it's, it's through that reflection and through, you also talked about spending time with things and ourselves, and kind of tuning into those parts of ourselves.

52:13

And it's, it's so easy to just move through life and not do that, but the different, the big difference I see in the people who are, who are really stepping into their leadership in the world is mindful humans is, you know, change makers, whether it be on the small scale or the large, large scale, that is one of the common threads is amongst all of that.

52:35

That tuning into self spending time with self reflecting and then acting from there.

52:43

Totally. And I feel like I'm starting to learn about just the myriad ways do that reflective practice.

52:51

Like it could be a journal which has kind of a classic thing, or it could be with a coach like yourself or it could be through yoga practice, for example, where you spend time slowing down and noticing what's moving through your body or through breath or mindfulness, like there's just so many ways to be reflective.

53:08

And it can be more or less literal. It can be more or less abstract.

53:11

Like yeah. I'm finding that to be a interesting part of that practice for myself right now and trying different things and seeing how they work for me.

53:19

Yeah. Yep. Also very important, you know, trying to do it the way that someone else does it can be the worst way to go about it sometimes.

53:28

Yeah.

53:29

So, so that's why I'm excited to try more ways and see what works.

53:33

Throughout the rest. But I guess also there's lots of things that I wouldn't have done in the past that now I do.

53:38

And yeah. Being open to the possibility for your own change too is important.

53:43

Yeah. I think that's a beautiful note to end on, the possibility of your own change.

53:49

Matt, thank you so much for spending this time with me.

53:53

It's been a joy and I look forward to seeing more of your work.

53:58

How can people come and find you?

54:02

They can come and find me online at two main places.

54:05

One of them is my facilitation and storytelling and training work, which is Cloud Catcher.

54:11

So the websites cloudcatcher.org.

54:14

The other one is my music work and the website, the band is called the General Assemblyand the website is generalassembly.com.au.

54:23

Fantastic. Definitely go and check Matt and his art and his music and all his things out.

54:28

'Cause he's a wonderful human so lovely to spend the time with you.