0:06

Hello, and welcome

0:06

to PMI's Podcast Leading for

0:09

Business Excellence. Our podcast

0:09

brings inspiring stories from

0:13

across the globe in a multitude

0:13

of sectors from great leaders

0:17

who share their experience and

0:17

what Business Excellence means

0:20

to them. I'm Rich Seddon,

0:20

Managing Partner of PMI, the

0:27

performance improvement

0:27

Consulting and Training firm. In

0:31

this episode, I'm delighted to

0:31

be joined by Katie Evans, Chief

0:35

Marketing Officer of Burger

0:35

King, UK.

0:37

Katie's career is one of

0:37

customer obsession, from

0:41

understanding who the customer

0:41

is, what their needs are, how to

0:45

engage new and existing

0:45

customers, and most importantly,

0:48

delivering experiences that keep

0:48

them coming back.

0:53

Today, we're going to talk about

0:53

Katie's experience and insights

0:56

of excellence from a marketeers

0:56

perspective, and hear how she's

1:00

driven performance improvement.

1:00

Listen out for Katie's take on

1:03

putting the customer front and

1:03

center, working in partnership

1:07

with the supply chain to achieve

1:07

better results, engaging

1:10

stakeholders in transformative

1:10

change, and the importance of

1:13

Agile processes in a fast paced

1:13

environment. Oh, and there's

1:18

even a whopper on the side of a

1:18

bus too.

1:27

Katie, thanks so much for joining us.

1:29

Hi, Rich, good to

1:29

be here. Thank you.

1:32

So to kick us off

1:32

them. Could you take us through

1:35

your career to date to give our

1:35

listeners an idea of, of

1:39

watching name and where you come from.

1:42

I started back Oh,

1:42

I don't remember what year. But

1:47

I when I left Uni I started on

1:47

the graduate program at

1:51

dunnhumby a quite an exciting

1:51

time for that business. It was

1:54

still relatively small compared

1:54

to what we see now. But it gave

1:59

me such a solid grounding in

1:59

customer insights and customer

2:03

centric decision making. That it

2:03

you know it I think for grad

2:08

program, it was really good to

2:08

kind of setting me up for the

2:11

career I was to go on and have

2:11

because that piece around data

2:16

informing decisions is kind of

2:16

run through everything I've done

2:19

since then. And I had the

2:19

opportunity to work on

2:23

warburtons and I'm Weetabix and

2:23

lots of smaller brands. And

2:28

they're obviously quite big By

2:28

comparison, but it was a really

2:31

exciting time for the company.

2:31

And obviously a really exciting

2:34

time for, for Tesco, you know,

2:34

being able to provide their

2:39

suppliers and the brands that

2:39

they were working with, with,

2:42

you know, real customer data

2:42

that allow them to, you know,

2:46

improve their brand marketing

2:46

their ranging their category

2:48

management. And yeah, I really,

2:48

really enjoyed my time there.

2:52

But I guess the experience I had

2:52

with those clients gave me a

2:56

little insight into you know,

2:56

how things worked within a brand

2:59

team. And I was really keen to

2:59

get involved myself and go

3:02

client side. So from there, I

3:02

moved to Heinz, in an assistant

3:08

brand manager role, which was a

3:08

brilliant opportunity to work

3:11

for an iconic brand, very big

3:11

organization, a very, very

3:16

different to you know, what I

3:16

have come from a dunnhumby. But

3:19

you know, as a first brand role,

3:19

it gave me, you know, some good

3:23

experience in working on

3:23

Creative campaigns and new

3:26

product launches. I guess for

3:26

me, a company of that size,

3:31

there was a lot of process, a

3:31

lot of hierarchy. And as I said

3:35

quite different to the culture I

3:35

had come from at dunnhumby. So I

3:39

kind of decided it wasn't really

3:39

where I wanted to stay. And an

3:43

opportunity came up at Krispy

3:43

Kreme UK, which I then pursued.

3:49

And I took on the head of

3:49

marketing role there, which was

3:53

really, really exciting because

3:53

it was quite a new brand in the

3:56

UK still in its kind of early

3:56

growth. Many stores but you

4:01

know, lots of growth still to

4:01

come. And, you know, it was all

4:05

around how do you position a

4:05

brand by Krispy Kreme with you

4:08

know, it's its first ever store

4:08

in the UK, opened in Harrods,

4:12

but it was no stocking units

4:12

across Tesco nationwide. So that

4:18

was really interesting for me

4:18

because it was a real kind of

4:20

insight into, you know, their

4:20

their multiple consumer groups

4:23

for this brand and this product,

4:23

and how do we just make sure

4:27

that we can get it to people in

4:27

the right way. It was also a

4:32

very early insight into

4:32

delivery, online delivery and we

4:36

explored I think it was 2007

4:36

exploring online ordering and

4:42

transporting doughnuts with a

4:42

company I think they were called

4:44

a courier and they're probably

4:44

still going strong. But you

4:47

know, very early stages of I

4:47

guess trying to get product to

4:50

consumers and you know before we

4:50

had the likes of delivery and

4:54

and UberEATS and and other other

4:54

delivery companies in place. So

4:58

that was that was good fun. I

4:58

then joined gourmet burger

5:03

kitchen, casual dining brand

5:03

that was around from I think was

5:09

2001. But when I joined, it was

5:09

just off the back of the

5:15

recession introduced a loyalty

5:15

program there, which was was

5:17

quite exciting because it was

5:17

one of the, one of the first, I

5:21

guess, solid loyalty programs

5:21

that we had seen, you know,

5:23

really starting to take effect

5:23

in that sector. So we, we

5:27

massively reduced that discount

5:27

dependence, which I think a lot

5:30

of brands Pizza Express, or

5:30

another example had gone through

5:33

during the recession, and tried

5:33

to get it back to a really good

5:36

place, redesigning restaurants,

5:36

and growing that brand across

5:40

the UK, which was a really

5:40

lovely journey to be part of.

5:44

And from there, I then had a

5:44

little bit of a gap, I did my

5:48

own thing for a while and

5:48

decided that I'm probably better

5:52

off being part of a team than

5:52

working for myself, which was

5:55

still a good learning to, to

5:55

come out with and explore. But I

6:01

then joined Burger King, almost

6:01

four years ago, which was quite

6:07

different, even though it was still in the world of burgers, it was quite different for me to

6:10

start to get involved in a fast

6:14

food brand, very different to

6:14

casual dining. But a really

6:18

interesting time for Burger King, because we were essentially a new company,

6:20

taking on a iconic brand with

6:24

huge brand awareness. And taking

6:24

it on a journey to make it

6:29

relevant again, in the UK, and

6:29

bring it back into growth.

6:33

And that has been quite the

6:33

journey and quite exciting the

6:37

last few years, obviously, we've

6:37

had the challenge of the last 18

6:40

months. But you know, it's it's

6:40

been about repositioning it to

6:44

speak to the right audience, in

6:44

the right way playing to our

6:47

strengths again, but also

6:47

remaining agile. And I think,

6:50

you know, the fact that we are a

6:50

relatively young company, in

6:54

terms of how long we have been

6:54

working on on the Burger King

6:57

brand has has really helped in

6:57

that agility and that ability to

7:00

kind of react to change, which

7:00

was particularly helpful when

7:03

when the pandemic hit in 2020.

7:03

Okay, fantastic.

7:07

So there's a couple of things I'm hearing there, then. And the common theme seems

7:09

to be in this check out if this

7:12

is a fair reflection, it's one

7:12

of building up and construction

7:17

of both process and proposition

7:17

for the customer. Is that a fair

7:20

reflection of some of the

7:20

commonalities between the

7:23

between your role?

7:24

Yeah, I guess, you

7:24

know, two or three of those

7:26

roles, probably to Gbk and

7:26

Burger King have very much been

7:29

around and to a certain extent

7:29

brand turnarounds. So brands

7:34

that have, you know, they have

7:34

they have awareness, they're,

7:38

they're, you know, they're in a

7:38

good place. They're in a good

7:40

position, but they have they've

7:40

lost their way. And how can you

7:46

reposition them, but also

7:46

building the, as you say, the

7:49

processes and structure that

7:49

allow for growth? And that's

7:53

growth in lots of areas, so

7:53

rollout of new restaurants, but

7:56

not just that, how do you, you

7:56

know, adapt, and reposition the

8:00

brand itself, what it stands

8:00

for, making sure that you're,

8:05

you're, you're speaking to the

8:05

right audiences, and you were

8:09

responding to their needs in the right way.

8:11

And he mentioned at

8:11

the very outset, with you with

8:14

your first role at a backup

8:14

dunnhumby around data

8:18

foundations. And one of the

8:18

things that I'm really keen to

8:21

understand is, is from a

8:21

marketeers perspective, how do

8:26

you understand performance, so

8:26

you get a sense of what is and

8:29

what isn't working? Because

8:29

there must be tangible things

8:32

and intangibles and lots of

8:32

different measurement systems in

8:36

order to know that

8:37

yeah, I mean, there

8:37

are, there's a plethora of, you

8:41

know, ways of measuring or ways

8:41

of looking at that data, but I

8:44

guess it's, it's about not, you

8:44

know, being overwhelmed by all

8:50

of those data sources, but

8:50

having a, you know, a solid set

8:54

of measures that you have in

8:54

place, and I guess that that

8:56

goes right back to the start of

8:56

what are the objectives, you

8:59

know, if your objectives are

8:59

clear, your ability to then

9:02

measure performance? And, you

9:02

know, it's, it's obvious really,

9:07

you know, it's you need to

9:07

understand what it is you're

9:09

looking at and what you're trying to what change you're trying to instigate

9:13

think about how you

9:13

understand success, then there

9:16

must be micro levels and macro

9:16

levels and different different

9:20

different types of, of criteria

9:20

to meet those objectives. But

9:25

part of it, I guess, you

9:25

mentioned it earlier on is

9:27

around agility. You must have to

9:27

turn things on and off pretty

9:31

quickly. Tell me about that and

9:31

how how that works within your

9:35

team.

9:38

I guess you know,

9:38

promotions and, and discounts.

9:43

We have our own app, which is

9:43

which was introduced last year.

9:49

That gives us very clear data

9:49

but also a very clear way and

9:56

method to to measure performance

9:56

of discounts or promotions that

10:00

we might be running, you know,

10:00

we have over 500 restaurants. So

10:05

we can immediately see if we,

10:05

you know, turn on a new product,

10:09

launch a new product, make a

10:09

change to the menu, you know,

10:13

make a change to an offer or

10:13

something that we're running, we

10:17

can very quickly understand the

10:17

impact that's had on behavior,

10:20

because we're looking at a

10:20

sizable group of people, and

10:22

we're looking at those

10:22

transactions, you know, daily,

10:25

hourly, you know, so we can get

10:25

very clear insights on that kind

10:32

of activity that we can kind of

10:32

very quickly switch on and

10:35

switch off. But there are other

10:35

aspects to what we do that we

10:41

also need to measure, a lot of,

10:41

you know, the repositioning of a

10:45

brand and bringing a brand, you

10:45

know, back to consumer

10:48

relevance, again, is very much

10:48

about how it's perceived, you

10:52

know, how it sits? from a

10:52

customer perspective, you know,

10:55

are we speaking to the right

10:55

people are the messages we're

10:58

putting out there getting

10:58

through in the right way? And

11:00

are we actually engaging those

11:00

customers to come and see us to

11:02

come and visit and to try Burger

11:02

King again. And to do that, that

11:08

takes a little bit longer, you

11:08

know, some of it we track over

11:11

time. So we will track customer

11:11

attitude or disease over time,

11:15

customer and brand perceptions

11:15

over time. But then there are

11:20

other occasions where you know,

11:20

you will do something, and you

11:22

need to be very consistent with

11:22

that message for a very long

11:24

period of time for to actually

11:24

cut through. And that's why, you

11:27

know, there will be things that

11:27

we will measure in brand tracks

11:31

every six months to really

11:31

understand, okay, it takes time

11:34

for those things to have an

11:34

impact. And let's give it the

11:37

time it needs before we, you

11:37

know, change strategy again,

11:40

because, you know, otherwise,

11:40

you would just end up chopping

11:42

and changing all the time. But

11:42

there are many things that we

11:45

can measure quite quickly. And I

11:45

guess the benefit of things like

11:48

social media allow you to, you

11:48

know, you can run a campaign,

11:52

and very quickly do some social

11:52

listening to understand how has

11:56

that been received? You know,

11:56

what's the sentiment around it

11:59

is a positive, neutral or

11:59

negative? You know, there's a

12:02

lot there's a lot of data

12:02

sources, or there are a lot of

12:05

data sources, and it's just

12:05

about being being very clear on

12:09

you know, what our objectives

12:09

and what are the what are our

12:11

plans for measurement from the

12:11

start? And I think then, you

12:14

know, the team are then aligned

12:14

behind, you know, what does good

12:17

look like? What will a good

12:17

campaign or a good promotion

12:20

looks like for us, and, and

12:20

finding the right measures to

12:23

track that?

12:24

Okay, so you

12:24

mentioned earlier on around some

12:27

of the early experience of

12:27

online delivery with, with

12:30

Krispy Kreme. So one of the

12:30

things that strikes me is the

12:33

period that, that you've been

12:33

active during your career, the,

12:37

the enormous transition that

12:37

you've seen, in terms of the

12:42

change of the role of social

12:42

media, you just mentioned it

12:44

there, that must have heightened

12:44

the need for agility? And yes,

12:49

it gives you a whole raft of

12:49

additional insights, but it must

12:52

be operationally a whole

12:52

different dynamic, that this has

12:56

evolved, and continues to

12:56

evolve, I guess, day in day out

13:00

from from running a busy

13:00

marketing team and the way that

13:03

you do

13:03

absolutely, you

13:03

know, it's, it's an always on

13:06

channel, and, you know, it's an

13:06

it's a two way channel. So, you

13:12

know, we can, it gives us, you

13:12

know, a great degree of agility

13:18

in terms of putting a message

13:18

out there to a customer

13:20

audience, or to any audience and

13:20

in a very timely way. So for us,

13:27

the huge benefit in that is, you

13:27

know, we can react to things out

13:32

there that are in the kind of,

13:32

in consumers minds, relevant

13:35

things that they're talking about, and be part of that conversation in a way that is

13:37

right for us as a brand. And so

13:42

that's, you know, that's incredible. And you can have huge reach with with that

13:44

message. And obviously, you can

13:48

measure the sentiment and you

13:48

can really become part of the

13:50

conversation and the right conversations for you as a brand. I guess, with that there

13:52

is also the, you know, the day

13:58

to day piece for the customer

13:58

feedback that comes through on a

14:01

restaurant experience. And,

14:01

therefore, it's pretty critical

14:05

that we're, you know, that we're

14:05

looking at that channel, in

14:08

particular, if we're, if we're looking at social media, that we're looking at it, you know,

14:10

in both, how do we, you know,

14:13

maintain our presence on there

14:13

in the right way and interact

14:17

with our and engage with

14:17

customers in the right way on,

14:19

you know, it could be little

14:19

things like, is that store going

14:21

to be open at this time, too,

14:21

and redirecting those questions,

14:25

so that those customers get a

14:25

response, managing complaints,

14:29

but also being able to have, you

14:29

know, quite fun conversations

14:32

that will often turn into, you

14:32

know, a bit of banter on social

14:36

media, that that ends up, you

14:36

know, driving, you know, more

14:40

conversation and, you know,

14:40

attention and, and engagement,

14:45

which is fundamentally what

14:45

we're trying to achieve. So,

14:50

yes, it requires, we have an

14:50

agency who look after our social

14:53

media, they're like an extension

14:53

of our team, very clear on, you

14:57

know, our positioning and how we

14:57

And how we speak to customers,

15:02

you know, how transparent we are

15:02

as a brand, you know, things we

15:07

will talk about things we won't

15:07

talk about, I think that's

15:10

really important as well. But

15:10

that team needs to be, you know,

15:14

very clear on, on what's

15:14

happening. And we need a two way

15:17

communication internally with

15:17

them. That allows us to, you

15:22

know, be ready and be agile,

15:22

should something go wrong in

15:25

that channel, or if an

15:25

opportunity presents itself and,

15:29

you know, it's so that we can

15:29

quickly make a decision to be

15:32

involved or not.

15:33

Okay, so what I'm

15:33

hearing there is that you've

15:38

got, you've got a mixture of

15:38

third parties, and you add your

15:41

europace to your own internal

15:41

team. And I'm guessing that the

15:45

repeatable processes are pretty

15:45

important in that environment to

15:49

ensure that the responses are

15:49

not just in the social media

15:52

world, but the the way you

15:52

respond to this ever changing

15:55

environment, and particularly

15:55

with the size of audience that

15:58

you have repeatable processes

15:58

must pay a large part in that

16:02

mix.

16:02

Yeah, I'd say

16:02

there's a balance. And I'd say

16:06

there's a balance between a

16:06

level of process and

16:11

flexibility. But I guess the

16:11

flexibility it sounds like such

16:14

a cliche to say, but the

16:14

flexibility is there, because

16:18

there is a framework in place.

16:18

And therefore, you know,

16:22

everybody has a clear set of

16:22

objectives, we are very clear

16:26

on, you know, our tone of voice,

16:26

you know, the kinds of

16:29

conversations we will take part

16:29

in, you know, the things we want

16:33

to say. And so therefore, I

16:33

guess there is a framework

16:37

around around that. But there is

16:37

also I guess, a framework in

16:43

terms of, you know, if our

16:43

social media agency who we give,

16:47

you know, a huge amount of

16:47

autonomy to, if they feel that

16:51

something comes up, that is an

16:51

opportunity for us as a brand.

16:54

So I'll give you an example. We

16:54

had, I think it was one of the

16:59

most liked branded tweets of all

16:59

time, and came out of a very

17:04

specific reaction to a comment

17:04

that Kanye West had made. So our

17:09

social media agency were were

17:09

picked up on Kanye West saying

17:12

my favorite brand is McDonald's.

17:12

And they immediately said, we

17:17

need to respond that involved a

17:17

text to our brand and comms

17:22

director. With this, what we're

17:22

going to say, is that good, yes.

17:27

And they responded to Kenya with

17:27

explains a lot, and it just went

17:31

wild. Now, it's one of those

17:31

things, that was a three word

17:35

tweet, it was quite a, you know,

17:35

a quick reaction to something

17:39

that was quite relevant for us,

17:39

because it was Kenya was talking

17:42

about McDonald's, and we can be

17:42

part of that conversation. But

17:45

it drove huge attention on the

17:45

brand, it was featured in news

17:49

articles in the US, you know,

17:49

Burger King, UK just did this.

17:55

And it was it was all about

17:55

timing, it was all about the

17:58

simplicity of the response. But

17:58

that timing was only possible,

18:03

because we have a very clear,

18:03

you know, path of communication

18:07

between us and our digital

18:07

agency, we use things like

18:11

What's up, you know, things

18:11

don't have to take place in a

18:14

formal briefing document. And I

18:14

guess that level of informality,

18:21

while it seems quite informal,

18:21

and quite casual, it is quite

18:24

reflective, there's an inherent

18:24

process there. And, you know,

18:27

people are clear on on, you

18:27

know, who they need to speak to,

18:30

to get things done. And also, as

18:30

a team, we don't have a huge

18:33

level of hierarchy, we're quite

18:33

a lean team. And that means

18:36

that, you know, we can respond

18:36

quite quickly when things, you

18:39

know, are brought to the table

18:39

be that a great creative

18:41

campaign idea, and a great PR

18:41

idea that is so timely that it

18:46

needs to happen, you know,

18:46

within the next half an hour, it

18:50

doesn't always work like that

18:50

there are other campaigns that

18:52

are much more, you know, planned

18:52

in the long term, but we need to

18:55

be able to work at both levels.

18:55

And I guess that, you know, what

18:59

you refer to as a repeatable

18:59

process, it's probably inherent,

19:03

it's much more overt on things

19:03

like new product development. So

19:08

with any new product development, you know, we will often have multiple products or

19:10

product categories, and in

19:14

development at any one time, and

19:14

that requires, you know, a level

19:19

of not just project management,

19:19

but a level of process that

19:23

allows for, you know, clear

19:23

understanding of what's

19:27

happening in the market. And,

19:27

you know, speaking with the

19:30

suppliers and getting, you know,

19:30

getting the right products and

19:33

the great ingredients that we

19:33

need, testing that at a first

19:36

level, developing further

19:36

testing, again, you know,

19:39

consumer testing, refining, and

19:39

all of the pieces that go before

19:45

a launch and, you know, that can

19:45

be anything from a, you know, a

19:49

six to nine month process. And,

19:49

you know, some of our, in the

19:55

early days, we didn't have the

19:55

luxury of that time, we had to

19:57

really condense you know, new

19:57

product development because we

20:01

have so many things that we

20:01

wanted to launch and get out

20:03

there to bring new news. But

20:03

over time, I feel like we've

20:07

really honed that, that process

20:07

and we've really got our heads

20:11

around how to how to improve it,

20:11

but it's in a constant state of

20:15

improvement, it's in a constant

20:15

state of Okay, what can we learn

20:18

from that last, that last run?

20:18

Is there anything we would

20:21

change, we try not to let

20:21

process or I guess, hierarchy

20:26

within the team stifle creative

20:26

ideas, but try to have the

20:29

processes and lines of

20:29

communication quite clear. And

20:34

then they become quite inherent

20:34

in how we work. So while we

20:36

might not always call it out as

20:36

a process, it's it is there.

20:41

And I think, you know, our

20:41

learnings from the last kind of

20:44

18 months, you know,

20:44

particularly in a crisis, the

20:47

trust in that process, it means

20:47

that we can get to solutions so

20:51

much quicker. And obviously,

20:51

having to do that remotely. You

20:55

know, I I've been on Matt Lee

20:55

for some of that. But in the

20:59

first lockdown, I was very much

20:59

part of, you know, us trying to

21:03

navigate our way through the,

21:03

you know, the early parts of the

21:06

pandemic and what it meant for the business. And actually having, having those kind of

21:08

lines of communication and

21:12

process around those really,

21:12

really helped us.

21:14

Okay, fantastic.

21:14

Fantastic. So one of the things

21:17

you've talked about throughout

21:17

the podcast so far, is about

21:22

working with third parties,

21:22

agencies of different of

21:27

different kinds. And I'm keen to

21:27

hear about you, William, what's

21:31

that experience? Like? I mean,

21:31

I'm very, very conscious that

21:35

it's the creative sector,

21:35

stifling creativity, if it's

21:38

described, it is the thing you

21:38

don't want to do. So something

21:42

you've obviously worked on some

21:42

great projects, and just talk to

21:45

me about some of those some of

21:45

those standout experiences.

21:48

I mean, yeah, we absolutely don't want to stifle creativity. But we, you know,

21:50

for that creativity to exist,

21:56

there needs to be a really good

21:56

relationship between us and the

21:59

agency, they need to feel very

21:59

much like an extension of our

22:01

team. Therefore, they need as

22:01

much information and insight as

22:05

we can give them. And I've

22:05

always felt that with, you know,

22:10

agency relationships, they're so

22:10

important, particularly at a

22:13

time of crisis, but just to

22:13

Anyway, you know, we're on quite

22:17

an interesting journey with

22:17

Burger King in the UK. And, you

22:21

know, we've done a lot in a very

22:21

short space of time. So it was

22:24

really critical that we had a

22:24

set of agencies who really

22:26

understood what we were trying

22:26

to achieve, and that we

22:29

constantly refresh and update

22:29

them on any changes to that

22:33

strategy or any changes to that

22:33

plan. And with many of our

22:36

agencies, we have not just a

22:36

clear set of objectives that are

22:40

tailored to their specific role

22:40

within within the marketing

22:45

agenda. They also get to see

22:45

that overarching direction were

22:48

taking. And I think that very

22:48

much makes them part of the

22:51

team. Okay, that's interest. I

22:53

mean, one of the

22:53

one of the common themes, we see

22:56

many cases is where supply

22:56

chains and let's call your

23:01

agencies part of a key part of

23:01

your supply chain. They're not

23:04

treated as part of the team and

23:04

and goals and objectives and

23:08

aspirations aren't shared. So

23:08

what I think I've just heard you

23:12

saying there is that sharing,

23:12

and Ben and team working within

23:16

your supply chain has been a key

23:16

part of, of your performance

23:20

excellence in the way you've driven improvement?

23:22

Yes, absolutely.

23:22

Absolutely. I think it's part of

23:28

our culture to bring, you know,

23:28

to bring the agencies on board,

23:31

but I guess it's also part of

23:31

the experience we've had, you

23:34

know, coming, you know, starting

23:34

to work on a brand where, you

23:39

know, back in the very early

23:39

days, when we did social

23:41

listening in 20, would have been

23:41

back end of 2017, early 2018.

23:46

And, you know, it was telling us

23:46

that despite having over 500

23:49

restaurants, many customers out

23:49

there, were saying just Burger

23:52

King still exist in the UK.

23:52

That's a bit of a shocker and a

23:56

shock to the system when you're

23:56

starting on a on a brand

23:59

journey. Because you're thinking

23:59

actually, we've we've a lot

24:01

further to go than we than we

24:01

initially thought. And so

24:05

therefore, obviously working on

24:05

that plan, alongside the right

24:09

agencies was really important,

24:09

and obviously getting their

24:12

expertise, but I definitely

24:12

think it's been critical in, you

24:16

know, in the successful

24:16

campaigns we've seen over the

24:19

last few years, but also, you

24:19

know, how we've remained agile

24:22

how we've remained responsive to

24:22

the customer and listening to

24:26

the customer and engaging with

24:26

them in the right way. Because

24:31

there's a freedom in our

24:31

agencies being able to come to

24:33

us with ideas and creative

24:33

ideas, we won't always say yes,

24:38

but there is always an opportunity for them to come and present those thoughts. And we

24:40

tend to have a number of ongoing

24:44

reefs with our creative

24:44

agencies, and this is something

24:46

that happens globally. It's very

24:46

much a Burger King thing at a

24:50

global level. You know, we have

24:50

very clear briefs for example,

24:53

around you know, Whopper, it's

24:53

our core product, it represents

24:57

everything we stand for big

24:57

taste flame grilling me to order

25:01

your way, we always find

25:01

creative ways to bring it front

25:05

and center. But, you know, for

25:05

an agency, that's you know,

25:09

that's that's just a brief

25:09

that's on the table all the

25:11

time. So if, if they see an

25:11

opportunity to bring that front

25:15

and center in the right way,

25:15

and, you know, come to us with

25:19

that idea, and we'll explore it.

25:19

And that's, you know, an example

25:22

of what BBH, our creative agency

25:22

did. When they texted me with an

25:27

idea to put water on the side of

25:27

a bus, in front of the Houses of

25:31

Parliament in the week leading

25:31

up to the election, you know, a

25:34

whopper on the side of a bus

25:34

must be an election, and it was,

25:37

you know, it was tapping into

25:37

something that was happening

25:39

that week, we turned it around

25:39

in a matter of days. But I guess

25:44

it's that, that openness between

25:44

agency and and us, and the

25:50

ability to kind of move quickly.

25:50

And, you know, it's engaging for

25:54

them as well, but it really works for us.

25:57

That's fascinating.

25:57

And I think, our audience

26:00

listening to this that don't

26:00

work in in a creative sector, we

26:04

really intrigued by that

26:04

analogy, because it's it's

26:06

directly translating that that

26:06

collaborative experience into

26:10

results. That was a standout

26:10

campaign for you, wasn't it?

26:13

It was Yeah, it was

26:13

I think we ended up in the FT

26:17

with that, which wasn't, which

26:17

was quite unexpected, but it

26:20

clearly tickled. You know, the

26:20

financial sector as much as you

26:25

know, political news, and, you

26:25

know, we weren't trying to be

26:28

overtly political, as much as

26:28

people may have tried to

26:32

position us as, you know, being,

26:32

you know, on one side or

26:36

another, we absolutely were, and

26:36

we just felt, you know, we had

26:38

an opportunity to talk about

26:38

Whopper in a fun way. And, and

26:42

we did it. And, you know, I

26:42

think it's, I yes, I think in

26:48

the creative sector, it's

26:48

important, I think it's really

26:50

important in the creative work

26:50

that we do. But you know, if I

26:54

think back to those very early

26:54

days, where he had dunnhumby, I

26:58

remember going to an old agency

26:58

meeting with warburtons, at the

27:01

time, and they had lots of

27:01

insight agencies, and all

27:07

invited to the table to come and

27:07

see a presentation of their

27:11

plans, and their strategy for

27:11

growth. And it was essentially a

27:16

day of, you know, getting all

27:16

the agencies together to

27:18

collaboratively work with

27:18

warburtons on that plan. So I

27:21

guess, quite early in my career,

27:21

I saw that kind of client agency

27:26

relationship, and how well it

27:26

worked, and how, you know, as an

27:31

agency team, we, from my

27:31

perspective, anyway, we did

27:35

everything we could to support

27:35

their plan with the right

27:37

insights, the right data on

27:37

time, because, you know, they

27:41

took us in, brought us into

27:41

their objectives and their plan

27:44

and their strategy really early

27:44

on. And you feel part of us, you

27:48

know, it was part of the reason

27:48

I then wanted to get into a

27:50

brand team, and, you know, start

27:50

making those plans myself. And I

27:55

think, you know, there are lots

27:55

of sectors that can work, it

27:58

doesn't have to be, you know, in

27:58

the creative world, or, you

28:02

know, in a world of creative

28:02

agencies, I think your

28:04

suppliers, you know, I think if

28:04

if the relationship is good, you

28:08

can, you know, look at, look at

28:08

the challenges we're seeing on

28:11

things like packaging right now,

28:11

across the country, you know,

28:15

the relationships you have with

28:15

your packaging, suppliers are

28:18

pretty critical at a time like

28:18

this. And so I just think that

28:22

investment in relationships with

28:22

your suppliers, whatever form

28:26

they may take upfront, and over

28:26

time is really, really

28:30

important. Because, you know,

28:30

you need them to be an extension

28:33

of your team and the time for

28:33

crisis. But you also need them

28:35

to be an extension of your team

28:35

when you're in, you know, great

28:39

growth and when times are good,

28:39

because, you know, they, they,

28:41

they'll have your back. And I

28:41

think that's, it works both

28:44

ways. Yeah. Brilliant,

28:45

thanks for that.

28:45

It's really interesting to hear.

28:48

So building upon that, then and

28:48

really interested in this theme

28:53

of translating that creative

28:53

process into the actual

28:56

operational activities. When

28:56

you've described there, you've

28:59

got 500 stores, geographically

28:59

spread, the actual operational

29:06

discipline, man have certainly

29:06

been the implementation of

29:09

campaigns and things like that

29:09

must be a major challenge for

29:11

you. So how does that work? And

29:11

then talk us through because

29:14

you've been involved in several

29:14

companies with a similar setting

29:18

where where that you've got

29:18

scale, but the the discipline of

29:23

implementation from translating

29:23

that creative process must play

29:27

a key factor in how do you do

29:27

that successfully?

29:30

It's, um, I mean,

29:30

there is no perfect and I don't

29:33

think I certainly don't think

29:33

I've cracked it I you know, I

29:36

think it's one of these

29:36

constantly evolving. How do we

29:40

how do we communicate better

29:40

internally? How do we engage the

29:43

right stakeholders, but I think

29:43

it's a being conscious of it.

29:47

And being aware that actually

29:47

your customer is not just the

29:50

end customer, or, you know, that

29:50

particular strategic segment of

29:54

customer that we're trying to

29:54

speak to your customer is as

29:57

much internal and, and in

29:57

internal stakeholders at all

30:01

levels of the business, if you

30:01

really want to make a campaign

30:04

happen, or if you really want to

30:04

achieve a certain objective, and

30:08

for something to go, Well, you

30:08

really, really need to, to rely

30:11

on, not rely on earn the buy in,

30:11

of, of those internal

30:17

stakeholders. And I think, you

30:17

know, we have even more of more

30:20

complexity, or there is should I

30:20

say, more complexity in in the

30:26

Burger King business, you know,

30:26

with the addition probably more

30:29

than I've experienced elsewhere,

30:29

because you also have an

30:31

additional layer of franchisees,

30:31

you know, is there another group

30:36

of stakeholders that we need to,

30:36

to inform and communicate well

30:41

to and explain why we're doing

30:41

certain things. So, you know, we

30:45

own a number of stores, and we

30:45

have franchisee run stores as

30:50

well, and that that communication piece is really critical. And I guess, for me, a

30:52

very good example of that coming

30:57

to life and the need to get

30:57

that, you know, translating, you

31:03

know, a creative process into,

31:03

you know, how do we bring it to

31:06

life operationally, was when we

31:06

did meltdown. So the meltdown

31:10

campaign was, it was a truly

31:10

creative campaign, but it was

31:14

very much dependent on the

31:14

translation of that, selling it

31:18

into stakeholders at all levels

31:18

of our business, and, and really

31:22

getting the message across in

31:22

the right way and selling it

31:24

into ops and supply chain,

31:24

because they were essentially,

31:27

you know, the two areas of our

31:27

business that were going to

31:29

really bring it to life. So

31:29

meltdown was born out of an idea

31:33

that M. Again, it was a brief to

31:33

a packaging brief to an agency,

31:37

we always wanted to reduce and

31:37

find a solution for the plastic

31:41

toys that were in our kids meals

31:41

and our King Jr. Kids mail, we

31:44

knew we wanted to move away from

31:44

a non biodegradable plastic toy

31:48

and brings something alternative

31:48

for kids to play with something

31:51

sustainable and recyclable. And

31:51

they took that packaging brief,

31:56

and came back with a much bigger

31:56

idea. And that was how meltdown

32:01

was born. So we basically took

32:01

the groundbreaking step of

32:04

removing all plastic toys from

32:04

our King Jr. Meals overnight.

32:08

And not just on the removal of

32:08

the toys from the business. But

32:11

we also called an amnesty on the

32:11

public to donate their free

32:15

plastic giveaway toys from other

32:15

brands, as well, to Amnesty bins

32:18

and Burger King restaurants

32:18

across the UK for recycling. And

32:21

we were then taking that plastic

32:21

and taking it to a another

32:28

supplier who were going to melt

32:28

that down, and turn it into

32:32

repurpose it into plastic for

32:32

play areas, and everyday

32:36

restaurant items such as trays.

32:36

So that the goal was very clear.

32:42

Would I be right in

32:42

saying that you you talk about

32:44

stakeholders there. That's way

32:44

beyond just the storage, you

32:48

must have had the actual supply

32:48

chain, the manufacturers of the

32:51

raw materials, you're purchasing

32:51

guys, your budgeting team and

32:56

your finance teams, that that

32:56

was a big stakeholder exercise I

33:00

imagine.

33:00

Massive, massive

33:00

and, you know, bear in mind, you

33:04

know, the plastic toys are

33:04

something you know, that appear

33:08

in Burger King King Jr. Meals

33:08

globally. And while the UK might

33:13

make a decision to remove

33:13

plastic toys, that will have

33:17

implications for the rest of the

33:17

world in terms of, you know,

33:21

volumes that are being produced.

33:21

And you know, what impact that

33:25

has, we knew, and we were very

33:25

supportive globally, and we knew

33:30

that it was the right thing to

33:30

do for the UK, there was a huge

33:33

spotlight on you know, single

33:33

use plastics that continues to

33:36

be. But we also had, you know, a

33:36

very clear objective, right?

33:41

When we started working, working

33:41

with the Burger King brand, you

33:44

know, how do we introduce more

33:44

sustainable practices? How do we

33:48

reduce waste? How do we improve

33:48

sustainability and bring that

33:52

into all aspects of our

33:52

business. And this was very much

33:54

a journey we were taking. But we

33:54

just we realized that by doing

33:59

this overnight and being so

33:59

drastic, not just kind of

34:01

removing it slowly, over time,

34:01

that it was going to have a big

34:04

knock on effect for everything

34:04

you said it was going to, you

34:08

know, there was it was going to

34:08

cost us It wasn't going to be it

34:12

wasn't about a cost saving

34:12

exercise, this was actually

34:15

going to cost us because, you

34:15

know, you have to find an

34:18

alternative. But you also need

34:18

to find a way to melt this

34:21

plastic down and find a supplier

34:21

to turn it into, safely turn it

34:25

into and repurpose it into

34:25

something else. And we, you

34:30

know, needed to make sure that

34:30

the restaurants were properly

34:33

informed that, you know, they

34:33

they really understood why we

34:37

were doing it. And that when customers went into the restaurants that they you know,

34:39

the path was very clear, the

34:41

journey was clear for the customer. You know, I dropped off my plastic toy here. And I'm

34:43

now going to get a kid's meal

34:47

that won't have a toy in it. So

34:47

what does it mean? And I think

34:51

you know, we had to manage the,

34:51

I guess selling the idea across

34:55

the business, but really take

34:55

the creative idea and make sure

34:59

that it could work. And as much

34:59

as we wanted to say, go, go go,

35:03

let's do this next week, it

35:03

couldn't have worked like that.

35:06

But when we got everyone around

35:06

the table, when we really

35:09

explained what we were trying to

35:09

do, and what the benefit would

35:11

be, you know, everyone was

35:11

hugely supportive. It just

35:14

needed to take time. And it

35:14

needed to be, this is not a

35:18

marketing, you know, campaign.

35:18

This is a, it's a whole business

35:22

campaign, and we need to all

35:22

really get behind it if we're

35:24

going to make it work. And we

35:24

did. And, you know, overnight,

35:28

that September, we removed our

35:28

plastic toys from from the kids

35:32

meals and and it saved

35:32

approximately 320 tons of single

35:36

use plastic in a year. So, I

35:36

mean, it was a significant

35:41

change for the business. It

35:41

requires, again, strong internal

35:44

relationships and strong

35:44

communication, and I'm sure if

35:46

they wanted to tear their hair,

35:46

this is what we wanted to do.

35:51

But everyone could see we were

35:51

doing it for the right reasons.

35:54

And everyone could see it linked

35:54

back to the original, you know,

35:57

strategy and direction we wanted

35:57

to take as a business. So it was

36:01

true to that it wasn't a, you

36:01

know, let's do this. Because,

36:05

you know, it feels like the

36:05

right thing to do this week. It

36:07

wasn't about that it

36:08

was something that we had talked about for a very long time. But we just brought

36:09

it forward, and did it, I guess

36:13

quicker than we we had

36:13

originally planned to do. And

36:16

thinking about the coalface. So

36:16

there's the stores. And the the

36:21

people that work in the stores

36:21

who deal with the customers who

36:24

no longer have the plastic toy

36:24

in their in their meal? How did

36:28

you work? How did you work with

36:28

them? And how did you engage

36:31

them and inform them? What was

36:31

the messaging like,

36:33

funnily enough, the

36:33

messaging we used was very much

36:37

in keeping with the consumer

36:37

messaging, because, you know, at

36:41

the end of the day, we're all

36:41

consumers. And we sold to them

36:45

why we were doing it, you know,

36:45

so that they fully understood

36:48

why we were doing as we know, it

36:48

is the right thing to do to not

36:51

have, you know, single use

36:51

plastic toys that ends up in the

36:54

footwell of your car. For weeks

36:54

and months on played with, we

36:59

have to give them the quick

36:59

equip them with the information

37:03

that they could communicate the

37:03

same message to customers. But I

37:07

think on a on a consumer level,

37:07

everyone understood why we were

37:11

doing it and really got behind

37:11

us. And then sharing the success

37:15

stories with them. So sharing,

37:15

you know, the news coverage that

37:19

we had, and explaining, you

37:19

know, if it was the right thing

37:23

to do, and we've had an amazing

37:23

response from customers on what

37:26

we've done, and that can only be

37:26

a good thing for the brand. So I

37:30

think, you know, they, they were

37:30

very engaged with it in the same

37:33

way, as you know, we saw a

37:33

positive customer center

37:37

sentiment and a really positive

37:37

customer response to it.

37:39

And I think you've hit the nail on the head, there is something in my experience I

37:40

see is often missed in in

37:44

transformation and improvement

37:44

programs. It's like

37:47

communication of the success and

37:47

the communication of the impact

37:51

back to the, to the storefront,

37:51

the shop floor level, the

37:54

operator level. So the impact of

37:54

that work that I did those

37:58

customers I dealt with, I broke

37:58

the news to these kids that

38:01

there's no plastic toys, and

38:01

it's not a mistake, they

38:05

actually understand the impact.

38:05

And we see time and time again,

38:08

where that's part of the loop

38:08

that people miss. So it's really

38:11

fascinating to hear from you on

38:11

that, on that impact. And the

38:14

fact that you

38:14

get out, and we are

38:14

by no means perfect, you know,

38:17

we need to constantly look at

38:17

that and improve it. And, you

38:21

know, how do we make that

38:21

communication? How do we make

38:24

sure it comes sooner in the

38:24

process? You know, how do we go

38:27

out of our way to engage our

38:27

teams, you know that it's a

38:30

constant, you know, evolution,

38:30

but we need to it's it's

38:35

bringing our teams on board with

38:35

us and really, you know, yeah,

38:38

sharing in the success of of

38:38

campaigns that I remember from

38:41

meltdown, you know, they were

38:41

all sending through pictures and

38:44

photographs from the restaurants

38:44

that had the, you know, the

38:47

amnesty bins in we had meltdown,

38:47

crowns, meltdown, packaging, and

38:52

posters, but like the boxes

38:52

themselves, they were all

38:55

recyclable packaging, I must

38:55

add. But it it allowed them feel

39:01

that they could get behind us. I

39:01

think they also have meltdown t

39:04

shirts. So they were very much

39:04

part of the campaign. And we

39:06

find when we do that, it they

39:06

may seem like little things but

39:10

they're actually very important

39:10

and making everyone feel like

39:13

you know, there's there's

39:13

something new and it's exciting.

39:15

And there's a reason we're doing

39:16

well yeah, indeed.

39:16

And at the end of the day, the

39:19

you guys can in the in the

39:19

center, Dara, so you can come up

39:22

with as many wonderful ideas as

39:22

as you like. It's down to the

39:26

implementation at the coalface

39:26

the end of the day they have the

39:28

power to to make or break any

39:28

kind of campaign, be it

39:32

operational or marketing

39:32

campaign. So that's fascinating

39:35

to hear how you've engaged them in that way. It's really interesting to a different

39:37

subject, if I may. I'm really

39:40

interested. Yeah, with your

39:40

experience in the plethora of

39:44

brands that you've worked both

39:44

directly and indirectly with

39:49

customer experiences that you

39:49

admire both specific occasions

39:54

and companies. I'm really

39:54

interested to hear the what the

39:57

Watson the wise What What does

39:57

someone in your job, look out

40:00

For him, when when are they impressed?

40:04

I mean, I guess,

40:04

all through my career,

40:06

particularly when I moved into

40:06

this probably, Krispy Kreme, and

40:11

then very much, you know, when

40:11

we got into the world of casual

40:14

dining at Gbk, I've always been

40:14

impressed by what retail fashion

40:21

retail are doing. Because I

40:21

always feel that they are, they

40:26

have always been quite agile,

40:26

because they've had to be, it's

40:30

a very fast moving sector. And

40:30

consumer trends and consumer

40:36

behaviors change, you know,

40:36

very, very quickly. And

40:40

consumers expectations are super

40:40

high. And, you know, I mean,

40:43

they are across the board, but I

40:43

always find that in fashion,

40:46

retail, I've always watched what

40:46

they have done, because I feel

40:51

particularly in things like

40:51

digital and delivery, digital

40:54

online experience, you know,

40:54

online customer journeys, they

40:59

they've been successful brands,

40:59

and the success, successful

41:03

fashion retailers, the likes of

41:03

Athos, the likes of many of the

41:06

high street brands, have just

41:06

been super agile, and really

41:11

responsive to, to customer

41:11

needs. And, you know,

41:15

recognizing that, you know, the

41:15

high street, unfortunately, has

41:18

been incredibly challenged, even

41:18

more so in the last 18 months,

41:22

but many of them were had been

41:22

agile previously, and therefore

41:26

were set up for something like

41:26

that they were set up to respond

41:30

and react and make sure that,

41:30

you know, people could still

41:34

essentially shop from the

41:34

comfort of their homes and the

41:37

safety of their homes, and have,

41:37

you know, clothes brought to

41:41

them safely and decide clothes

41:41

or other fashion items. And, you

41:45

know, try them on and send them

41:45

back if you know if they weren't

41:48

right, and everything to be

41:48

processed online very

41:51

seamlessly, I'm sure there,

41:51

there are good and bad examples.

41:54

But I've always looked at that

41:54

particular sector, because I

41:57

think there are some real kind

41:57

of winning examples there. And I

42:02

guess, you know, naturally, I'm

42:02

going to look at restaurants and

42:05

look at the hospitality sector

42:05

and what people have done. And,

42:08

you know, I think it has been a

42:08

shocker of a year for many, you

42:12

know, casual or fine dining

42:12

brands, you know, based in the

42:15

city centers, you know, based

42:15

around CBD areas where people

42:19

are just, you know, people just

42:19

stopped coming overnight,

42:23

essentially. And I think the

42:23

brands that remained agile

42:28

through the pandemic, and

42:28

probably already had that

42:30

agility built into their

42:30

business, you know, had an

42:35

interest or a basis of granting

42:35

and, you know, using tech, or a

42:40

keenness to kind of get the

42:40

right tech on board, they were

42:44

able to transform customer

42:44

experiences, despite the

42:46

challenges of the pandemic,

42:46

removing barriers to purchase,

42:51

you know, and making it easier

42:51

for customers to access their

42:55

brands. And I think, you know,

42:55

for me, things like the homebox

42:59

schemes that that restaurants

42:59

implemented, like the likes of

43:01

hawks more at home, you know,

43:01

it's an example of taking, you

43:05

know, what may have been, you

43:05

know, business lunches, and

43:08

special occasion meals out and

43:08

bringing it into your home, you

43:11

still want a special occasion,

43:11

we all needed that lift, but it

43:15

was about bringing that special

43:15

into your home, and you know,

43:18

that would have created, you

43:18

know, there would have been a

43:21

huge amount of work to set that

43:21

up and to try and set it up

43:23

quickly. But it added value for

43:23

the customer, while also adding

43:27

value, and future proofing their

43:27

businesses, giving them you

43:31

know, an additional sales

43:31

channel, even post pandemic, I'm

43:33

sure it will still go well. But

43:33

I just think it's amazing what

43:38

these brands have done to really

43:38

kind of say, okay, the

43:40

customer's needs have changed,

43:40

their behaviors have changed, we

43:43

need to respond to that

43:43

directly, what can we do? And I

43:46

think when you get into that,

43:46

solutions, planning with the

43:49

right people in your team, you

43:49

can make amazing things happen.

43:54

And I think, you know, many of

43:54

these brands have created sales

43:57

channels and sales routes that

43:57

they didn't, they hadn't even

44:00

considered previously. And I

44:00

think, you know, are they fast

44:03

tracked digital processes that,

44:03

you know, we certainly have in

44:06

our business, you know, to get

44:06

to the customer and find ways to

44:10

engage the customer. When other

44:10

restrictions have meant that you

44:14

can do it in the traditional

44:14

way. And I think that that's, I

44:18

think that that's really

44:18

exciting. And I you know, it is

44:20

awful what happened but it's

44:20

amazing how it something like

44:24

that can drive that level of

44:24

creativity and opportunity. And

44:28

I think the right brands pivoted

44:28

to that, and should, you know,

44:32

are well deserving of their

44:32

success because they you know,

44:35

they put the work in,

44:37

but it reinforces

44:37

the concept of the customer

44:39

being at the center and I think

44:39

earlier on you, you described

44:43

when you're talking about

44:43

stakeholders here but both the

44:46

customer on the street as it

44:46

were, and and all those other

44:49

internal and unseen customers it

44:49

reinforces for me and that that

44:54

example you've just described,

44:54

understand the customer needs

44:57

and build your processes

44:57

backwards from that point.

45:00

interview is the key essence of

45:00

what what all those examples

45:03

you've just described have done.

45:05

Yeah. Yeah. And and

45:05

that requires, you know, you

45:10

won't be able to get all the

45:10

information straight away. But

45:12

you can, you know, there is a

45:12

lot of information on on

45:16

customer behavior out there. And

45:16

if you are lucky enough to have

45:19

your own direct source of

45:19

consumer insight be that you

45:25

know, an app or a CRM database

45:25

or whatever, there are ways of,

45:30

you know, listening to your

45:30

customer and getting that

45:32

feedback, and really kind of

45:32

watching their behaviors, even

45:34

watching their behaviors in

45:34

other categories can inform your

45:37

own. And I think that that's,

45:37

you know, I just think that's

45:42

important. Yeah. And equally,

45:42

you know, there's a lot of

45:45

research that will have, you

45:45

know, we noticed through the

45:48

pandemic, there was a lot of

45:48

macro research out there. But in

45:52

terms of really researching

45:52

customer behavior, in the

45:56

traditional sense, it was more

45:56

difficult to do, because

45:59

everything was changing all the

45:59

time. And when so many factors

46:02

are changing, it's hard to get a

46:02

good read to it to get a clear

46:05

read on, you know, what is the

46:05

behavioural change, this week,

46:08

first is a more permanent shift.

46:08

And, you know, some of that is

46:13

trusting, you know, there's a

46:13

little bit of trusting your gut,

46:16

that this is the right thing to

46:16

do. And, but it's finding the

46:19

information and insight that you

46:19

can find or making changes, and

46:22

really saying, Okay, how did

46:22

that work? What was the impact?

46:25

And, you know, what would we do

46:25

differently next time. And I

46:29

think it was very tricky through, you know, through the pandemic, and I wasn't involved

46:31

for all of it, because I was on

46:34

that leave. But, you know, that

46:34

the team remained agile, and,

46:38

and, you know, changed and

46:38

pivoted. And I think that that's

46:43

just so, so critical, and so

46:43

important. And I think, you

46:46

know, who knows if, you know,

46:46

the kind of growth we've seen in

46:49

delivery is going to, you know,

46:49

stay at that level for the long

46:54

term as the high street reopens,

46:54

you know, things are going to

46:57

change again. But I think for

46:57

any brands that have been

47:00

through this last 18 months, I

47:00

think you will have learned a

47:03

lot in terms of how to adapt to

47:03

changing customer needs and

47:06

behaviors. And, you know, the

47:06

fact that you know, one size

47:09

does not fit all, and you're

47:09

going to have to, you know, have

47:13

be willing to make those changes

47:13

if you want to, to engage the

47:17

customer.

47:17

Interesting. So I

47:17

think what you've, what you've

47:21

described there is, reflects a

47:21

piece of research that that I

47:26

came across a few months ago,

47:26

around Good, good decision

47:32

making in the science of good

47:32

decision making, I was actually

47:34

in preparation for one of our

47:34

webinars. And I came across a

47:38

piece of research actually

47:38

dating from 1921, that everyone

47:42

I've described this to those by

47:42

a guy called Frank Knight, and

47:46

he was talking about risk and,

47:46

and the concept of risk and the

47:50

understanding of risks to a good

47:50

decision making. I think what

47:53

you've just described there is

47:53

about leavers, knowing which

47:56

lever you're pulling, but so

47:56

many factors changing at any one

47:59

time to be unsure of which lever

47:59

is being pulled. And this

48:02

research I found by Frank

48:02

Knight, we're on Ron approaches

48:07

to risk distinguished really

48:07

simply in put risk into two

48:12

categories, put the concept of

48:12

risk into two categories. And he

48:16

defined risk itself as that that

48:16

you can measure, whereas

48:21

uncertainty is that which you

48:21

can't measure. And that really

48:27

struck me to help clear the set

48:27

the old expression, the wheat

48:31

from the chaff. And I think what

48:31

you've described there with the

48:34

with the so many things

48:34

changing, that's actually falls

48:37

into the category of

48:37

uncertainty. Whereas

48:40

traditionally, in in, in the non

48:40

pandemic environment, we'd have

48:44

caught that all risk, and try to

48:44

manage it all. And I think

48:47

there's a greater acceptance of

48:47

experimentation. I'm wondering

48:51

if that's something that you've

48:51

witnessed, and it sounds like

48:54

you have from the examples

48:54

you've described, a greater

48:57

willingness for experimentation

48:57

amongst top teams. And to change

49:02

quickly or change course

49:02

quickly, how likely do you think

49:04

that is to stick post pandemic?

49:07

I'd like to think I

49:07

mean, it's, it's one of those

49:10

things, I think if you've had a

49:10

success in any aspect of your

49:14

business by, you know,

49:14

responding or trying something

49:18

in that uncertain environment, I

49:18

think you will naturally think,

49:22

okay, we can do this again, you

49:22

will have the confidence to, to,

49:25

you know, try something in an

49:25

uncertain uncertain time, I have

49:31

no doubt that, you know, people

49:31

will be kind of wish should be

49:34

Boyd by that. But I also think

49:34

some of it is around the culture

49:39

of the business and, you know,

49:39

the culture of, you know, we've

49:44

always been a very brave brand,

49:44

particularly when it comes to

49:48

you know, making creative

49:48

decisions, but some of it is

49:52

also just part of our culture,

49:52

because at the very beginning,

49:56

you know, there were a lot of

49:56

things that we we hadn't tried

50:00

And it, you know, we had to try

50:00

a lot of things to really

50:03

understand, okay, what is

50:03

working what works for us. So

50:06

there's a level of comfort in

50:06

that uncertainty. And we're

50:09

learning more and more and

50:09

things are becoming, you know, a

50:12

little bit more certain, a

50:12

little bit more comfortable,

50:15

that's the wrong word. But we

50:15

know more than we ever did. And,

50:20

but I think, you know, people

50:20

should recognize that, you know,

50:24

there will be a level of

50:24

uncertainty for a very long

50:27

time. And, you know, almost

50:27

there is no flat kind of safe

50:31

period to work with, we probably

50:31

need to be, get comfortable with

50:36

uncertainty and just say, okay,

50:36

we need to kind of test and

50:39

learn and something might work

50:39

on this occasion, and, you know,

50:44

what was it about everything we

50:44

do, we should be reviewing it

50:46

looking back. And I mean, I say

50:46

this, we're not always doing

50:49

this, and we need to do it more.

50:49

But, you know, what was it about

50:52

that that works? so well? And,

50:52

and how do we kind of pan some

50:56

of that, but also comfort in

50:56

saying that didn't work? And why

50:59

didn't that work? You know,

50:59

could we have improved it? Or

51:03

was it just the wrong route to

51:03

take? And I think there's a fear

51:06

of failure naturally. I mean,

51:06

nobody wants to be, you know,

51:10

spending a huge amount of money

51:10

on a campaign that, you know,

51:14

doesn't succeed. And, yes, we

51:14

would all love the, the luxury

51:19

of time to test and time to

51:19

learn and, you know, time to do

51:23

a dummy test of anything before

51:23

you actually launch but in many

51:27

cases, you just don't have that,

51:27

that luxury. But maybe we need

51:31

to be a bit more comfortable

51:31

with things not always going to

51:35

plan and recognizing that we

51:35

need to adapt and change and

51:38

learn again. Yeah,

51:39

yeah, absolutely.

51:39

What would a great lesson in any

51:42

sector, any walk of life? So one

51:42

final question for you, leaders,

51:48

and all companies that you

51:48

admire, and why?

51:51

I mean, the

51:51

companies it's, it's

51:53

interesting, because I think if

51:53

you ask anyone, maybe I'm wrong.

51:56

But I think if you ask most

51:56

people in marketing, the

51:58

companies we admire, you tend to

51:58

see the same names coming up

52:03

again, and again, like you'll

52:03

see Netflix, and you'll see john

52:06

lewis, and, you know, brands

52:06

that have you know, transformed,

52:11

you know, a space, particularly

52:11

something like Netflix, or

52:15

Apple, where they've done

52:15

something really transformative

52:18

in people's lives. And, you

52:18

know, we all need a Netflix

52:22

during the pandemic, anyone you

52:22

know, who was locked up at home,

52:25

I think, between Netflix and

52:25

Disney, depending what kind of

52:29

situation you're in, I think

52:29

they were all they were all

52:31

lifelines. But I'm going to say,

52:31

I mean, there's loads that there

52:36

are lots of brands that I really

52:36

admire, I love Paddy Power, I

52:38

think they're so brave. I think

52:38

their creative ideas are just

52:41

epic. But I really, really like

52:41

what nationwide are doing. And I

52:47

think the reason I like what

52:47

nation wide and Sarah benison

52:51

their cmo are doing is I always

52:51

look at their campaigns and

52:55

think that just doesn't feel

52:55

like what you would expect from

52:58

a financial institution. It's

52:58

very human, you might have seen,

53:03

they do a lot of TV adverts

53:03

with. It's called nationwide

53:09

voices. So the adverts featuring

53:09

poets reading their work,

53:13

they're very stripped back, and

53:13

very authentic and human. And I

53:18

guess they're just communicating

53:18

in a way that you would not

53:21

expect from a financial

53:21

institution. And I think they

53:24

adapted that. And they're a good

53:24

example of being agile. They

53:27

adapted those adverts to the

53:27

pandemic to really reflect what

53:30

was going on and consumers lives

53:30

at that time. And at that

53:34

moment, I think that was I just

53:34

thought it was so impressive. It

53:38

is isn't it? And really

53:38

interesting, yeah, not what you

53:41

would expect. And I think it's

53:41

that real human voice that and

53:46

that they give and the campaign's that they get involved in behind the scenes,

53:47

you know, they really mean

53:50

something they are, you know,

53:50

they are not, you know, jumping

53:54

on any bandwagon you can tell

53:54

that it's, you know, it's it,

53:58

that real human element to what

53:58

they do is fundamental to their

54:01

brand. And I just find them

54:01

yeah, I find it really

54:05

impressive and really

54:05

interesting. And I follow, I

54:07

always follow what they do. And

54:07

they're very different to, you

54:09

know, the world I'm in but I

54:09

yeah, I really admire that.

54:14

That's brilliant.

54:14

Thank you very much. And we're

54:17

coming to the to the end now

54:17

which which I'm really

54:20

disappointed about because it's

54:20

been absolutely fascinating

54:23

talking to you amazing hearing

54:23

those experiences, and from such

54:27

a different perspective for

54:27

translating that creative

54:31

experience into the into the

54:31

customer experience to produce

54:36

better results. So thank you so

54:36

much for joining us, and I'm

54:40

sure I'm sure our listeners will

54:40

have got a lot out of this. So I

54:47

really do hope you've enjoyed

54:47

this episode of pmis podcast

54:50

leading for Business Excellence.

54:50

If you'd like to know more about

54:53

how you can develop your career

54:53

and Business Excellence and

54:55

transform your organization.

54:55

Please do drop us a line. You

54:59

may have gathered We'd love to

54:59

talk [email protected] we'd really

55:04

love to hear from you. And don't

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forget to subscribe using your

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usual podcast service so you

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don't miss any episodes in this

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series. You will also find a

55:10

wealth of free resources,

55:14

videos, infographics and

55:14

webinars in our knowledge hub,

55:17

which you can find on our

55:17

website pmi.co.uk. Thanks again,

55:22

Katie for being such a fantastic

55:22

guest. And thank you everyone

55:25

for joining us.