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2:20

I

2:20

am downtown in a secluded

2:23

spot at the Salt Palace with

2:25

Ryan What's up Ryan? Yeah. I did

2:28

just been enjoying a conference. I'm here

2:30

for the Association for Talent Development

2:32

Conference, so which is usually really big,

2:34

like sixteen thousand people. Uh-huh. But there's

2:36

only three thousand people here year in the COVID

2:39

And so, yeah, we've kind of found this little

2:41

nook where I don't think we're gonna be bothered because we

2:43

were really not many people here. You were in town.

2:45

You reached out to me, tell told me you're to this conference.

2:47

And I'm like, hey. Yeah. Let's lease meet up.

2:50

And while we're at it, let's record

2:52

a a podcast because you always have genius

2:54

to share with us. Right? Right? Yeah. I don't know about that.

2:56

But, yeah, we'll see what comes

2:58

out, I guess. You know, we just re we we rebroadcast,

3:01

we published your episode about community.

3:03

We recorded that years ago. It's funny. I

3:05

think some people even though I say at the beginning of the

3:07

episode, this is a rebroadcast. Like, some people

3:09

don't realize it and they're like, wow, that recent

3:11

episode. like, oh, yeah. I freaked out

3:13

what I even said in that. Like, it must have

3:15

been good. But, anyways, the community aspect, I

3:17

think, has helped a lot of individuals and

3:19

then Even after that, we did an episode

3:21

of Bayou recent book success mindsets -- Mhmm.

3:23

-- and phenomenal book. And it seems like,

3:26

generally speaking, even outside of the church, I

3:28

mean and it's not church, but it's -- Yeah. -- business

3:30

leadership book. I mean, it's being well received. Right?

3:32

Yeah. Fortunately, it hit The Wall Street Journal

3:34

and USA did a bestseller list when it launched

3:37

back in May of twenty twenty, and then

3:39

it's, you know, still selling

3:41

and still out there, which is good. And -- Yeah. -- I

3:43

mean, yeah, different organizations will pick it up.

3:45

And, yeah, it's really for an organizational

3:47

audience, but really you could apply

3:49

the idea of mindsets to everybody

3:51

in any situation because our mindsets are foundational

3:54

to everything that we do. Yeah. That's true. And

3:56

so just give background about who you

3:58

are, where you're from, what you do for people who

4:00

maybe this is their first exposure to

4:02

Ryan Godfordsen. Yeah. So I grew

4:04

up in North Ogden, Utah

4:06

and graduated

4:08

with my bachelor's degree, Brigham Young University.

4:10

went to Indiana University for my PhD

4:13

program in organizational behavior and human

4:15

resources, and I did my dissertation

4:17

on leadership and it led me to

4:19

review the last seventy years of leadership

4:21

research, which is really cool, learned a lot. And

4:23

what I learned is that the vast

4:25

majority of leadership research over the

4:27

last seventy years is primarily focused on

4:29

answering one question. What do

4:31

leaders need to do to be effective?

4:34

And I think it's a valuable question. It's led to

4:36

some really good answers, very practical answers.

4:38

But it never really sat well with me

4:40

because it feels a little bit shortsighted because

4:42

I feel like Leadership is less about

4:44

doing the right things, and it's about being

4:46

a certain type of person. And so

4:48

after Indiana University, I took a job

4:50

at Cal State Fortune where I'm still at.

4:52

I'm an associate professor. I just got

4:54

tenure, so I can now say associate professor.

4:56

Thanks. Congratulations. Yeah. Which is great.

4:58

And so really for the last seven years,

5:00

my focus in terms of my research, my teaching,

5:03

and even now my consulting has been, how do

5:05

we tap into the being element of

5:07

leadership? and help leaders

5:09

to become better leaders as

5:11

opposed to just maybe doing the right things,

5:13

checking the boxes. Yeah. And that's perfect

5:15

reflection on our on our church experience and

5:17

really any human experience. But,

5:19

you know, in as we go to church, and

5:21

I I have this inside joke with

5:23

my wife that we hear certain talks or

5:25

whatever, and I say, this is a really this

5:27

is a doo doo talk, you know. Or

5:29

I hear other talks, I'm like, I love this. This

5:31

is ABB talk. where it's all about

5:33

becoming identity, it's all about

5:35

grace, you know, these things.

5:36

And it can we can sort of

5:39

default to that position of this

5:41

is what we gotta do or, you know,

5:43

and it's tough as I have

5:45

experienced various, you know, especially state conferences.

5:47

It seems like it's the case a steak conference

5:49

more than others because this is like the one opportunity

5:52

this steak presidency has in six

5:54

months to really communicate with the steak as a

5:56

whole. So they default to hey, we

5:58

really need to do whatever.

5:59

Right? Yep.

6:01

This research and this perspective is really

6:03

universal. Right? Yeah. I think so. Yeah. And

6:05

I think as we get into our station. It it's

6:08

really I think the gospel is all about

6:10

being. But oftentimes

6:12

in the church, we do boil it down to

6:14

the doings. Yeah. I mean, it's

6:16

been interesting. I think when I served my mission and

6:18

probably when you served your mission, you

6:20

had the white handbook. Right? And this is

6:22

a list of doing's and not doing's. And

6:24

it was kinda like you're either obedient

6:26

or you're not. And it's and your level of

6:28

worth is almost connected to

6:30

the degree to which you are doing or not

6:32

doing certain things. and it

6:34

misses the deeper purpose

6:37

of your being -- Yeah. -- who

6:39

you are as a person. And are you becoming

6:41

more like our Savior Jesus Christ, which I think

6:43

is the purpose of the gospel. Right? Or at least

6:45

that's my take on it. I would confer that

6:47

perfectly. And And really when we focus

6:49

on the doing, it always goes

6:51

back to the identity. Right? Like, we

6:53

begin to identify ourselves by what we

6:55

are doing. when in reality, we should start with

6:57

the identity and realize that once we

6:59

accept our identity, we we start to do really

7:01

good things just naturally. Mhmm. Yep.

7:04

So you have another book in the works. This is

7:06

what leadership authors do. They're always working

7:08

on their next book, right, as as you should.

7:10

And so tell us about this book because it's

7:12

gonna be sort of the core of our discussion. Yeah.

7:14

So it it's really

7:16

pushed me and I've I feel like I've

7:18

really grown a lot as a person. I

7:20

stumbled across the concept that's

7:22

called vertical development. So I've been

7:24

focusing on mindsets. And as I

7:26

came across this concept to vertical development,

7:28

I realized that when

7:30

you focus on mindsets, you're

7:32

actually helping people vertically develop

7:34

in us. Oh my goodness. This is this is

7:36

awesome. This is a new way to package what I do. But

7:38

then I I've been diving into it

7:40

more deeply, and I feel like it

7:42

has some really profound implications

7:45

for personal growth on a

7:47

variety of levels. Emotionally, spiritually,

7:50

and and maybe even physically. Yeah.

7:52

Well, I would say even surely, physically.

7:54

So Yeah. Vertical development

7:57

is the topic, and I think it's a topic that

7:59

even as I the

8:01

concept has been around for about forty

8:03

years. But it is rare I play in

8:05

the leadership space. It's rarely talked

8:07

about in organizations. It's rarely

8:09

utilized in organizations. And

8:11

I think it has some very profound implications

8:13

for it in the church and that something

8:15

that I think we can all value from.

8:17

I at least I value from and I think

8:19

others can as well. So let's go

8:21

back to the the mindset. Just let's bring the

8:23

six year olds in the room and say if you were talking to

8:25

a group of six year olds just quickly because obviously we

8:27

did whole pot on that. We'll link to it. People should

8:29

listen to it. But just the concept of mindsets.

8:31

What do you mean by that when you talk about mindsets?

8:33

Yeah. So I think a lot of people think of mindsets

8:36

as being their attitude

8:38

towards something. But our mindsets are actually so much

8:40

more than that. And then maybe I'll answer it in a couple

8:42

different levels. On a surface level, is our

8:44

mindsets are the mental lenses that we wear

8:46

that shape how we view the world. Because and

8:48

this is essential because how we view the

8:50

world, shapes how we think, how we learn, and how we

8:52

behave. Such as how

8:54

do we make

8:56

meaning of the church

8:58

handbook, for example. Do

9:00

we see it as this is

9:02

like, hard and fast, restrictive,

9:05

or do we see this as

9:07

more of a guide? Right? And

9:09

how we see it is gonna change how we

9:11

think about the handbook, how we

9:13

think about, how we make decisions,

9:15

about what we do and not do within our

9:17

words. And so just our mindset

9:19

shape how we see the world and therefore how

9:21

we operate within the world. So that's at

9:23

one level, but we could even get deeper

9:26

and connected back even to

9:28

neural science. that our mindsets

9:30

really are specific neural connections

9:32

within our mind that essentially

9:35

program us from seeing and

9:37

making meaning of things in certain ways. And

9:39

it's it's the reason why some people

9:41

can see failure as something

9:43

to avoid because they believe it says

9:45

something about them. or they see

9:47

failure as an awesome opportunity

9:49

to learn and grow. And how we see

9:51

failure will shape how much we

9:53

end up learning and growing throughout our

9:55

lifetime. Yeah. Alright. So now pivot

9:57

towards this vertical development concepts now that

9:59

we sort of have that understanding. Yeah. So

10:01

vertical development is really interesting. The

10:03

concepts of vertical development came out

10:05

of developmental psychology. So

10:07

developmental psychology has been around for

10:09

a hundred and twenty years. But for

10:11

the first eighty of these years,

10:13

they really only focused on

10:15

childhood development. Because

10:17

it's pretty easy to see that

10:19

children develop as they age, and they

10:21

wanted to classify this. So now we have

10:23

a variety of different frameworks that show us that

10:25

children develop through different developmental

10:27

stages as they move from childhood

10:29

to adulthood. but they didn't really look

10:31

at adult development because it's

10:33

harder to see adults develop. In

10:35

fact, it's quite difficult to

10:37

see that. But then about in the

10:39

nineteen seventies, some researchers came

10:41

along and they said, I think some

10:43

people develop, maybe not everybody.

10:45

And if so, do they

10:47

develop in certain stages?

10:50

Like during adulthood? During

10:52

adulthood. And what they found is that,

10:54

yes, adults can develop, but

10:56

not everybody does. So

10:58

it's interesting because childhood development

11:00

suggests that development is

11:02

really a function of age. As you get

11:04

older, you will develop. But

11:06

when me becomes adults, our

11:08

development no longer becomes a function

11:10

of age, it then becomes a

11:12

function of effort. And what research has

11:14

found is that there's three primary

11:16

adult development stages. and

11:19

that sixty four percent

11:21

of all adults don't

11:23

develop beyond stage one.

11:25

Thirty five percent developed to

11:27

stage two and only one

11:29

percent developed to stage three. And these

11:31

different stages, if you're a stage three, that's a

11:33

more positive thing -- Yeah. -- than --

11:35

Yep. -- than stage one. So what

11:37

vertical development is what vertical

11:39

development is is and I guess, let me

11:41

qualify this by saying that there's two different

11:43

forms of development. There's horizontal

11:45

development, and then there's vertical

11:47

development. So horizontal development

11:49

is adding new knowledge skills and

11:51

capabilities to what we have. So

11:53

this is like adding an app onto an

11:56

iPad. What we're doing with this new app

11:58

is it's broadening our functionality. We can

11:59

now do more than what we could do previously.

12:02

And I think think about your college or high school

12:04

classes. This was essentially what we're doing

12:06

is we're adding new knowledge and skills so that we could do

12:08

more than what we could do previously.

12:10

Well, the downside, the

12:13

limitation of horizontal development, is it

12:15

doesn't necessarily improve how

12:17

effectively that iPad functions.

12:19

So vertical development is

12:21

all about improving that iPads

12:24

operating system or our internal

12:26

operating system. So the the technical

12:28

definition of vertical development is

12:30

elevating our ability to make meaning

12:32

of our world in more cognitively

12:34

and emotionally sophisticated ways.

12:36

So when we look at these three different vertical

12:38

development levels, as we

12:40

increase in those levels, we are making

12:42

meaning of our world in more cognitively and

12:44

emotionally sophisticated ways. So let me

12:46

bring this to life. Yeah. I was thinking that's okay.

12:48

Yep. So how would you say

12:50

most people respond to

12:52

constructive criticism? negatively.

12:54

Right? They'll get I think or or

12:56

they feel bad about it or -- Yeah. -- they'll get

12:59

defensive. Right? Most people, not everybody.

13:01

Most people get defensive. Right? Because

13:03

they see constructive criticism as

13:05

an attack. Yeah. Yeah. They are making

13:07

meaning of constructive criticism as an

13:09

attack. Is this emotionally cognitively

13:11

and emotionally sophisticated? it's

13:14

justifiable -- Yeah. Yeah. -- when we

13:16

see it as an attack. But

13:18

I'm not sure it's cognitively and

13:20

emotionally sophisticated. Right? So level

13:22

one people, that's how they react to

13:24

constructive criticism. When we get up to

13:26

level two, they'll meet meaning of it a little

13:28

bit differently. And they might say, it

13:30

depends on who delivers it and how they

13:32

deliver it. Right? That feels a little

13:34

bit more cognitively and emotionally

13:36

sophisticated. But it's still not at that

13:38

top level. So at that top level,

13:40

people who are the most cognitively

13:42

and emotionally sophisticated, they say

13:45

I like receiving constructor

13:47

criticism regardless of who

13:49

delivers it how they deliver it because it

13:51

is an opportunity for me to learn

13:53

and grow. They get to this

13:55

mental place where they are good with

13:57

being told that they are bad.

13:59

and it's just not easy to get there. It

14:01

takes a lot of cognitive and

14:03

emotional sophistication to be

14:05

able to get there. So that

14:07

hopefully helps you to see what

14:09

this idea of cognitive and

14:11

emotional sophistication is, and then vertical

14:13

development is elevating up

14:15

that ladder of cognitive and emotional sophistication.

14:18

Gotcha. So in our organizations or even

14:20

in our personal development, we may we

14:22

feel like we're we're adding more apps to

14:24

our our personal development, but we

14:26

need to look at the operating

14:28

system rather than just hey, now I

14:30

can do this thing or now I have this

14:32

additional skill or whatever is that?

14:34

So maybe let me just touch

14:36

on each of these different levels LDS a

14:38

little bit more. So at each

14:40

of these different levels, we have

14:42

an internal operating system that

14:44

is programmed to

14:46

accomplish multiple meats or

14:48

fulfill multiple meats. So at this

14:50

bottom level, I call it mind

14:52

one point o, we

14:54

are focused on obtaining

14:56

three meats. our comfort, our

14:58

safety, and our belonging. So

15:00

effectively, we're kind of like a

15:02

penguin. An emperor penguin

15:04

And if you like, this is the image that comes

15:06

to mind. And we want if you've seen these huddles

15:08

of penguins, we wanna get right to

15:10

the center of that huddle because that's

15:13

where we're gonna feel the most safe, the

15:15

most comfortable, and the most likely we belong.

15:17

So everything that we do, we see

15:19

through this lens of does this help me feel

15:21

more safe, more comfortable and like I

15:23

belong? That's our internal operating system, and

15:25

it's a self protective operating

15:27

system. We want to protect ourselves being in

15:29

the middle of that. And it's justifiable,

15:32

but it's just not very emotionally, cognitively,

15:34

and emotionally sophisticated. The next level

15:37

up is this Mine two

15:39

point o. And when we get here, we

15:41

develop different needs.

15:43

So in mind one point o, we have the needs to

15:46

stand in, I think, is one of the ways to

15:48

say it. In mind level two point

15:50

o, we have the needs to stand

15:52

out. We wanna be seen. We wanna be recognized.

15:54

We wanna We wanna win. We wanna

15:56

get ahead. So we don't wanna be a penguin that's

15:58

in the middle of the huddle. We wanna be a

16:00

penguin that's on the out. outside and

16:02

seen and recognized by those

16:04

in the huddle. So oftentimes, in

16:07

fact, leaders are mined two

16:09

point o. In fact, what research

16:11

on executives is found as eighty five percent

16:13

of all executives are in Mine

16:15

two point o. And they want to they

16:17

wanna be kind of in charge of

16:19

all of these mind one point o people. They

16:21

see these mind one point o people as being

16:23

there to help them accomplish their

16:25

goals and get ahead. And

16:26

so you're saying this is more sophisticated, but it seems

16:28

sort of like a negative that seems very prideful

16:31

or, you know,

16:32

inward rather than outward. But it is sort of

16:34

more sophisticated like how how do you reconcile that?

16:36

Yeah. So it is a little bit. Right? It's still

16:38

self focused, but the reason why it's more

16:40

sophisticated is when we're in Mine one

16:42

point o, we

16:44

are dependent thinkers.

16:46

What you see, what we do is we exchange

16:49

our power and our independence

16:52

in order for greater safety comfort and

16:54

belonging that a group can give us.

16:56

Gotcha. And so we are a lot we we're

16:58

inclined to align with the the

17:00

ideas and philosophy Safees of the group,

17:02

and oh, I'll let the leader tell me what

17:04

to do just as long as I'm safe,

17:06

uncomfortable, and I belong. So at my level

17:08

one point o, we are

17:10

dependent thinkers. When we move into

17:13

mind level two point o, we become

17:15

independent thinkers. We

17:17

no longer adhere to

17:19

everything that our group says, and we develop

17:21

more independent beliefs. Like,

17:23

maybe I I really like

17:25

these beliefs from the group, but there's other these

17:27

other beliefs over here that I just don't

17:29

fully agree with, and I I develop my

17:31

own independent sense of belief. Yeah. And it

17:33

sounds like I'm connecting this to some doctor

17:35

and like, the

17:35

concept of agency is starting to to surface. Right? You

17:37

you suddenly internalize the the

17:40

concept of agency and and you're able which

17:42

is I think a positive thing. Yeah.

17:44

Yeah. For sure. And

17:45

so this is mind level one point o and two

17:48

point o. And then as we jump

17:50

into mind level three point o, I

17:52

call it So mine level two point o is self

17:54

reward mode. It's still a little self

17:56

look. Mine level three point o is we don't care

17:58

about standing in and we don't care about

18:00

standing out. What we

18:02

care about is contributing, adding

18:04

value and lifting. And so we

18:06

no longer are self focused. We

18:09

are now externally focused. We're

18:11

focused on others and helping them,

18:13

contributing to them, help lifting them and

18:15

elevating them. So we

18:17

were no longer this is no longer

18:19

about about others. Yeah.

18:21

And that's at this level that's the

18:23

most cognitively and emotionally sophisticated

18:25

because here we're no longer dependent

18:27

thinkers or independent

18:29

thinkers, we are interdependent

18:32

thinkers. We're able to

18:34

see multiple perspectives. We're

18:36

able to sit in complexity. Right? So

18:38

oftentimes what happens if

18:40

let's just take a polarizing topic

18:42

like gays in the church. Okay?

18:45

For example, I think this is you know, and we can even talk about

18:47

politics. Right? Mine one point o

18:49

people. They generally go

18:51

with whatever their group believes.

18:53

Right? And then usually that's one side or

18:55

the other. Mine two point o

18:58

people is they come up with their

19:00

own independent beliefs but it's usually on

19:02

one side or the other. And they once

19:04

they come up with their beliefs, they hold pretty

19:06

rigidly to them. Mine three point

19:09

o people And let me back up, you know, going

19:11

to two point o with people. Like,

19:13

typically, those individuals may, you know,

19:15

they they LDS on to one belief, but they

19:17

may step out and and is

19:19

maybe write up a Facebook post

19:21

that says, this is where I'm at. Like, I

19:23

stand in this position and, you

19:25

know, this is the best, you know, they're sort

19:27

of leaving that pack. and actually making

19:29

themselves be heard. Yep. There's

19:31

this element of I've

19:33

studied this for myself and here's

19:35

now where I stand. this

19:37

testifying component to it, whether it's a, you

19:39

know, a social issue or even a doctor an

19:41

issue. Yep. For sure. When we get

19:43

into this mind three point o is

19:46

we they see the complexity

19:48

of it. Right? That this is a

19:50

really complex topic and

19:52

that there are there are

19:54

to pull perspectives here and they wanna understand both

19:57

perspectives. And what they end up willing

19:59

to do is they end up willing to sit in the

20:01

middle. They sit in the mud

20:03

with this. And they're tension of it. Yep.

20:05

Yeah. And they're okay sitting in the mud

20:07

because they they know that there's not one

20:09

right answer because there's multiple

20:11

perspectives of this. And and so rare early

20:13

will you find a Mind three point o

20:15

person polarized on any

20:17

topic? Because they understand that there are some

20:19

pros and cons to any

20:21

topic. and they're okay with that. They've that's there's

20:23

mental maturity that they

20:25

have and it's it's uncommon. This

20:27

is why we we only see one percent

20:30

of adults. get to this place.

20:32

Yeah. And my mind is going to the

20:34

savior. You also want examples of the savior that,

20:36

obviously, he was a a very

20:38

contributing person. Right? and he was sitting in the the

20:40

messiness, you know, eating with the sinners

20:42

or, you know, really challenging some of the

20:44

status quo was there. And and so it's

20:46

interesting to reflect on the saviors as we go

20:48

through these. So that I think to

20:50

me, this has been the thing that

20:52

has been maybe one of the

20:54

most eye opening elements about

20:56

this is we talked about earlier. What's the purpose of the

20:58

gospel? Becoming more like our savior. Yeah.

21:00

Absolutely. How do you become more like

21:02

your savior? Is it through

21:04

downloading more apps on the iPad? Is it or

21:06

is it through upgrading the iPad's operating

21:08

system? Yeah. Well, it's upgrading

21:10

the iPad's operating system.

21:12

But here's the challenge is we're

21:15

so accustomed to horizontal

21:17

development. What do our talks

21:19

in our church lessons boil

21:21

down to? Here is the knowledge and skills that

21:23

you need to have, and it's not

21:25

about thinking and operating in

21:27

any more complex way. So

21:29

unpack that a little bit mean or what are some hypothetical

21:32

examples? Yeah. Purely

21:34

hypothetical. Right? I'm sure.

21:37

Well, it's interesting. So one example that

21:39

comes to mind is we have a gentleman

21:41

who gave a talk in

21:43

church several weeks ago very

21:45

well intended and very

21:47

passionate, you know, it was a good talk.

21:49

And he he was speaking to the youth at

21:51

this point in time, and he says, it's

21:53

really challenging to be a youth these

21:55

days. There's a lot of information that's

21:57

coming out, you know, even about the church and maybe

21:59

you get pushed in your testimony.

22:01

And he went on, let me give you some guidance here.

22:03

And and he says, if you

22:05

have questions about the church,

22:07

you need to Don't go outside of

22:10

the church to find answers. You need to talk

22:12

to people who have a testimony of the

22:14

church. And on the surface, this

22:16

seems like good

22:18

advice. Yeah. And very well intention to get very well This

22:20

isn't like I mean, this is just the nuances

22:23

of leadership and our community, in

22:25

religious community. Right. And when

22:27

you look at this through the vertical

22:29

development lens, is this is a

22:31

little Becoming point o coming

22:33

out. It is We need safety.

22:35

We need comfort. We need belonging.

22:37

You need to stay in. We need to

22:39

stand in.

22:40

And I think

22:41

on a certain that level surely

22:44

makes sense. But I

22:46

don't know if it's ever appropriate

22:48

to tell somebody that if you're seeking

22:50

if you have questions and you're seeking answers, you

22:53

only go to one source that is

22:55

probably quite biased about it. Right?

22:57

Right? This is I mean, you can we

22:59

could go to the stream

23:01

and say, you know, you would

23:03

never we would never want to

23:05

say to somebody

23:07

in Germany during World War

23:09

two, like, The only person you should

23:11

talk to who's a fan of the Iranian race

23:13

in the Nazi brotherhood. Right. Right. Like,

23:15

don't talk to anybody outside of

23:17

that. Right? It's just a it's

23:19

an It is more cognitively and emotionally sophisticated

23:21

to say, if you have questions,

23:23

in fact, you're probably gonna get a

23:25

lot of value from exploring

23:28

a wide variety of velocities. Right.

23:30

Right? And recognizing that all of these sources are

23:32

gonna have some level of bias. So keep that

23:34

in mind as you explore. For sure.

23:37

Right? Because What we're trying to do is

23:39

by only talking to people inside

23:41

the churches, we're trying to keep them safe, keep

23:43

them sheltered, but at the same

23:45

time, it also, I

23:47

think, stalls some real potential

23:49

growth. And if we really have

23:51

the truth as we claim we do,

23:53

then through their efforts of searching, they'll be

23:55

led back here. should be let back Or,

23:57

you know, the the youth grow up and they leave

23:59

that circle of penguins at some point.

24:01

And they're in different circles, you

24:03

know, still striving to maintain a religious

24:05

belief in faith. But if they don't have

24:07

those skills or that perspective, suddenly,

24:09

they, you know, have that

24:11

that cognitive dissonance that kind of blows up

24:13

on him. Yeah. And so do because he kind

24:15

of even extend this out. I mean, when you sit down in

24:17

a Sunday school lesson, how does the teacher

24:20

typically approach it? well,

24:22

we're covering a set of scriptures or if we're

24:24

an English conversation, we're covering a

24:26

conference song. And how we typically talk about

24:28

it is what do you need to about

24:30

this set of scriptures? Or what do you need to

24:32

know about this topic? And rarely

24:34

do we have conversations that

24:36

are about becoming more cognitively

24:38

and emotionally sophisticated? about this

24:41

particular thing. So for example, I

24:43

think something that feels

24:45

really complex to me is

24:47

the concept of love

24:50

the sinner. Hate the

24:52

sin. Yeah. To me, I

24:54

find that really challenging on

24:56

a conceptual and emotional level.

24:59

And I feel like it's very difficult to

25:01

have conversations about church,

25:03

about that particular topic in a

25:05

way that allows us to explore

25:07

multiple different perspectives. and

25:09

explore the complexity associated

25:11

with that. It usually is almost like

25:13

I I feel like often times when I'm going to

25:15

Sunday school, it's I'm the teacher.

25:18

have the information. It happens to

25:20

be in this flash drive, and my

25:22

job is to now just stick this flash

25:24

drive in you and download the

25:26

information. And once you have downloaded the information,

25:29

you're gonna be all set. Yeah. And I

25:31

think that and that's just a horizontal

25:33

development approach It's the approach that we use in

25:35

our classes, in high school, in

25:37

college. Yeah. This is a very interesting church thing.

25:39

It's it's happening all over. It's ever this is

25:41

our typical way of development. So the

25:43

concept of vertical development is really a novel

25:45

and groundbreaking approach to thinking about

25:47

how do we how do

25:50

we elevate And because what

25:52

we've gotta do is we've gotta make meaning of the

25:54

world in more cognitively and sophisticated

25:56

ways. We've gotta move so that

25:58

we see when people push

25:59

against ideas that we believe

26:02

in church, and and

26:04

here I mean, this is a huge challenge, I think, in

26:06

the church. because there's actually a tension

26:08

that exists. And the tension

26:10

is between safety

26:13

and truth -- Mhmm.

26:16

-- because sometimes there's certain topics within

26:18

the church that are the

26:20

majority of people believe, but

26:23

they aren't. white and black.

26:25

Mhmm. They're very great things. Let

26:27

me give you can I give you another example? Let's

26:29

do it. Okay. So -- She's helped. -- I'm sitting

26:31

in Sunday school one week, and this is

26:33

several years And we're

26:35

reading a passage from the old testament, and it

26:37

happens to be a dialogue between two

26:39

individuals and answer this in

26:41

your community. Yeah. So

26:43

I completed. Sorry if this is repetitive.

26:45

And I I just I

26:47

read this dialogue and it's going back

26:49

between two individuals and the teacher asked

26:52

me, Well, what does this mean to you?

26:54

You know, and I was a little caught off guard and I'm

26:56

well, I'm on this but I feel uncomfortable actually

26:59

answering this question. But I because I actually

27:02

feel like I'm not sure this dialogue actually occurred the

27:04

way that's written. This is my thoughts and -- Mhmm. --

27:06

people could disagree with that. That's fine. because I'm

27:08

like, this was a dialogue that occurred. How

27:10

many thousands years LDS? And how many

27:12

translations have we been through? Is this

27:14

actually being communicated now in the

27:16

exact same fashion that it

27:18

went down? So I kind of expressed that I said, but

27:20

regardless, I think here's the point that I think

27:22

is trying to be made here, and maybe I didn't need to

27:24

qualify my statement the way that

27:26

I did. But the next five

27:28

comments that popped up in in our Sunday

27:30

school class was, we need to

27:32

take the scriptures literally. They are

27:34

the Word of God. Mhmm. And

27:35

and it it was

27:36

it was really interesting because what is going on

27:38

in this dynamic? because I said something

27:41

that went against maybe a

27:44

majority's belief. And how

27:46

do they perceive that as

27:48

whether they're conscious of it or not? It

27:50

was an attack to them and now they're

27:53

defending it. Alright? So so

27:55

they're trying to protect their

27:57

safety. But I said something that pushed

27:59

against their beliefs and now they're stepping

28:01

into protect it, so they're protecting their safety.

28:03

And kinda what I was after

28:05

was seeking truth, trying

28:07

to see this as accurately as

28:10

possible. and oftentimes

28:12

what goes on is in the church

28:14

dynamic is there's people that push against

28:16

the majority because they

28:19

have certain beliefs that maybe this is misaligned

28:22

with truth and they're wanting to

28:24

explore it and And

28:26

if people aren't able to seed

28:28

their and sometimes they don't do

28:30

it very well or very tactfully and they don't need they

28:32

they they not have the tools to be able to

28:34

do that effectively. where they're at, but

28:36

if we just need your reaction get

28:39

defensive, what we're doing is we're trying to protect

28:41

our safety and we're not maybe open to the

28:43

ideas of Yeah. And really, I think the

28:45

whole purpose of, you know, Joseph

28:47

Smith is the ultimate example of this

28:49

is of just being a seeker

28:51

of truth. seeking any

28:53

perspective as a way to help us inform

28:55

what we're doing. And of course, you know, take it to

28:57

God with with whatever questions you have

28:59

or But it's a simple idea

29:01

of we need to create space

29:03

that we need to develop the cognitive

29:05

and emotional sophistication such

29:07

that when people say something

29:10

that we may disagree with,

29:12

we don't need jerk reaction and

29:14

shut it down because the consequence of that is

29:16

a lack of psychological safety. But then

29:18

I could hear people saying, well, when

29:20

people push against my beliefs, I don't

29:22

feel psychologically safe. Right? So

29:24

it's a dynamic that really

29:27

we cannot to actually resolve until we

29:29

elevate our cognitive and emotional

29:31

sophistication and we get to the point where

29:33

we're okay with

29:35

the idea of complexity. Yeah.

29:37

And it's it's just not easy to get there.

29:39

So let me give you a a example, a

29:41

leadership example that you know, sitting in a in an

29:43

obituary or as of the bishop, you sort of fill

29:45

this the handbook sort articulates

29:47

it. You sort of fill this heavy responsibility

29:49

that what goes on in Sacramento, meaning a

29:51

what set over the lectern needs to be doctorally

29:53

sound because I call the the poison the well

29:55

concept of what if somebody says

29:57

says a false stockedrin, it's taught

29:59

from an official meeting, and

30:02

then suddenly a group of the

30:04

congregation begins to

30:06

believe this false doctrine. So you sort

30:08

of put this weight on yourself as a bishop, like, oh,

30:10

no. They're saying they're sort of going off

30:12

the rails here, and they're saying things that

30:14

is clearly not doctrineal. Right?

30:16

And so, yeah, as a leader, you have this you

30:18

have this option

30:19

of standing up and saying brothers and

30:21

sisters, you know, brother, spend

30:23

love there is bless his heart.

30:26

completely

30:26

wrong what he said. And

30:28

I need to be very clear that that is false

30:30

doctrine. Now I don't think it ever happens that blatant

30:32

or it'll be more maybe passive aggressive

30:34

of we're gonna talk with him outside

30:36

or and we're gonna next week,

30:38

we're gonna have three talks about

30:40

to clarify what the doctrine is.

30:42

Right? in reality,

30:43

it's like, I'm gonna be I'm gonna

30:45

sit with the comfort of knowing that

30:47

this person is on a spiritual journey.

30:49

What he said is is not accurate.

30:51

but know that he is he is seeking

30:54

that and me standing up and

30:56

taking away that safety of you gotta watch

30:58

what you say in this then He's

31:00

more likely to not pursue that

31:02

journey of truth and maybe some of the congregation

31:04

will suddenly think, why never wanna

31:06

speak in sacrum me? because what if I say

31:08

something that is And then we, you know, there's

31:10

this concept even and you see in Sunday

31:12

school, people, you read a scripture and you

31:14

ask somebody, what do you think that means?

31:16

You know, and

31:17

we get the feeling that there's a right answer of doing

31:19

that. So we default to

31:21

PhDs on YouTube come follow me

31:23

channels saying, I'm just gonna listen to that

31:25

guy and not try and interpret this from myself, but

31:27

it is in the interpreting where our

31:30

operating system connects us with a god

31:32

in a way that no other YouTube

31:34

video or anything could happen again. I'm not

31:36

disparaging YouTube videos. I watch them too, but you get

31:38

what I'm saying. Like, these are sort of the

31:40

nuanced dynamics we deal with as

31:42

leaders. that keep us in that that

31:44

one point o what are we calling

31:46

it? The mind one point o. Right? Yep. Yep.

31:48

You got it. So that I think we've laid

31:50

out as far as, like, these different what

31:52

these different levels are and there's three of them.

31:54

Right? Yeah. It's really interesting because

31:57

it then affects another place we

31:59

could take this. It then

31:59

affects how our how

32:01

leaders in our church, whether we're a stake

32:03

president, a bishop, or at least society president, a

32:06

primary president, we're

32:08

gonna operate differently depending

32:10

upon our mind level because we

32:12

have a different internal operating system.

32:14

We're literally wired to focus on

32:16

different things. So Let me just give you

32:18

some examples of commonly how this might play

32:20

out. So if we're in mind one point

32:22

o, the leader might

32:24

be really focused on

32:27

adhering to the handbook, you know,

32:29

as it said, like, they are

32:31

super focused of just making sure

32:33

that everything is safe. comfortable

32:37

and like people below. And one should

32:39

follow the handbook, but maybe it's like someone has

32:41

a unique dynamic idea of an

32:43

activity and you think, well, that's not in the a

32:45

handbook. So therefore, we probably shouldn't do that even though

32:47

it says it doesn't say we can't do

32:49

it. Yeah. But it's not in the handbook, so let's avoid it.

32:51

Yeah. And and I think one of the things

32:53

that you another way of saying what you just said

32:55

is ideas are gonna come up,

32:57

and then we oftentimes go to the

32:59

handbook to explore. Is this you

33:02

know, safe according to the church to be able

33:04

to do. And it is and it's okay

33:06

to fall back to the handbook and to go by the

33:08

handbook. But then the question is, is do

33:10

we even allow for a conversation

33:12

about certain things to occur? Or do we

33:14

just simply say, nope. Hamburg says

33:16

no. But really, there is some

33:18

room for interpretation

33:20

about that particular topic in

33:22

a handbook. So so a mind one point o

33:24

leader is really primarily focused on

33:26

just making sure no problems occur. We don't

33:28

wanna create mistakes. I don't wanna

33:30

be seen as somebody who causes problems.

33:33

So I just wanna do what's safe

33:35

we don't wanna push the boundary on anything,

33:37

and that's just the way that they're wired.

33:40

Well, mine two point o

33:42

people are wired a little bit

33:44

differently. Right? So they're more for example, they

33:46

might be a little bit more about the

33:48

numbers. How do we win? How do we get

33:50

ahead? What's our you know,

33:52

tempo recommend percentage rate in our war.

33:54

What is our ministering

33:58

numbers this month? And

33:59

how how are we Are we

34:02

advancing? Are we getting ahead? Are we moving

34:04

forward? And oftentimes, these leaders are kind of

34:06

like, well, we're willing to maybe not adhere a

34:08

hundred percent the handbook

34:10

because it actually might help us

34:12

to get to some of these numbers. Oh, you know, how many

34:14

convert baptisms are we having? And

34:16

and not that any of that is bad,

34:18

But it's just the way that we're wired think we wanna

34:20

win, we wanna advance, we wanna get ahead,

34:23

we wanna stand out. Right? And

34:25

and oftentimes, and I've seen some of your work

34:28

here recently, Kurt, where you've talked about as

34:30

aspiring out of here. I wrote it down,

34:32

and I wanted to bring it up because it fits into this

34:35

a lot. Yeah. And so that's where when we're in Mine

34:37

two point o, that's kind of what

34:39

we're wired to do, to aspire,

34:41

to advance, to get ahead.

34:43

move up in the church -- Yeah. -- because there's

34:45

a social currency that's around that.

34:48

Mhmm. That surely has some

34:50

value because I mean, and I think we're

34:52

most of us who would like to think we're well intended

34:54

when we have that because maybe if we

34:56

put in a position of responsibility, we

34:58

have greater opportunities to positively

35:00

influence those around race. Right? And so that's kind

35:02

of how a mind two point o liter will operate. A mind three point

35:04

o isn't is less

35:08

concerned about adhering a hundred

35:10

percent to the Hamburg is less concerned

35:12

about driving certain numbers and is

35:14

really concerned about how do we

35:16

create an

35:18

environment that will allow people to learn, grow, engage,

35:20

and develop. And they're they're

35:22

much more focused on creating

35:26

a culture that allows

35:28

for growth and development. And

35:30

they want to create a culture

35:32

where everybody might,

35:34

whether you're inside or outside of the church,

35:36

we want you to feel like you belong, that this is a

35:38

very inclusive place. And that's the type

35:40

of thing that really only the mind

35:42

three point o leaders focus on,

35:46

and they they're a little bit more

35:48

willing to see complexity that things aren't as white and black

35:50

as as they might be.

35:53

and they're willing to dive into the

35:56

muddiness. They're willing to sit down and have

35:58

conversations with

36:00

people such as, you know, if

36:02

you have a youth in in your ward that

36:04

happens to, you know, feel like

36:06

they have same gender attraction

36:08

rather than, oh,

36:10

you know, we're

36:12

really worried about you. You you know, we

36:14

need to do something about this rather than see it

36:16

as a problem to be fixed. Just ask questions.

36:19

be curious. Learn, like, that's what a Mine three point

36:22

o leader does is they ask

36:24

questions. They don't lead out with the answers. And

36:26

so even within, let's

36:28

just say, Ward Council

36:30

a Mine three point o Bishop is

36:32

gonna be somebody that's more inclined of,

36:34

I have questions. I wanna

36:36

get your thoughts. whereas a mined one point

36:38

zero or a mined two point zero leader,

36:41

they're gonna say, I'm the one in

36:43

control, I'm in charge, and I

36:45

have the answers. not the questions. Yeah. And and

36:47

so they end up operating in a very

36:50

different way depending upon this internal

36:52

wiring. I just had a conversation with a of

36:54

president in

36:56

Spain. And he says, I thought it was a perfect example of this. He he drove

36:58

out to I I don't know if they

37:00

have a they have a committee or whatever, but

37:02

a group of of young single adults.

37:06

and he he's introduced his remarks or the,

37:08

you know, the discussion happening saying, I'm

37:10

not here to teach you anything. I'm

37:12

here to learn from you. So

37:15

what are you seeing? Like, what are you

37:17

feeling? Like, it was a very open discussion.

37:19

And he he learned a lot that he

37:21

could then take back and and do something

37:23

within his leadership experience. Yeah. even as you're

37:25

saying that we even before we started this interview, we were both talking

37:27

to a gentleman that we kinda mutually

37:29

know that we ran into

37:31

at this conference. And just while

37:33

I was talking to him before we met up, he shared in an

37:35

example of something that occurred in his word,

37:38

I've seen it go on in my stake as

37:40

well where and

37:42

they the bishopric had the youth write them

37:45

questions that they had. Uh-huh.

37:48

And then at the

37:50

event, the bishop spent two

37:52

hours just answering

37:54

questions and there wasn't any dialogue back

37:56

and forth. There wasn't any follow-up. It's just

37:59

There's one question. Let me give you an answer.

38:01

Here's another question. Here's my answer. And

38:03

and he just kinda said, I just I

38:05

just went away from that. Just feeling like it was

38:07

a missed opportunity. to connect with

38:09

the youth. Yeah. Right. We're creating more of a

38:12

discussion rather than I'm I'm here to answer your

38:14

questions and here we go.

38:16

Yeah. Yeah. And going back to the aspiring and and we'll link to

38:18

it as far as the I did a whole

38:20

episode and whole newsletter series

38:22

about this concept of aspiring and how

38:24

I feel

38:26

like the culture that's come up around aspiring

38:28

is actually maybe hurting us more than

38:30

helping us because there's this feeling of like, oh yeah,

38:32

you're never supposed to aspire and

38:34

this is you know,

38:36

maybe mine one point o where you're like,

38:38

I'm in the group. I don't want to

38:40

stand out or or give

38:42

people the impression that I need to lead in

38:44

a way. So I'm actually going to

38:46

proactively show that I'm not trying

38:48

to have influence that I'm just keeping my

38:50

head down and not doing anything. But

38:52

There

38:53

are these individuals who suffer in silence who that moment, that prompting

38:55

comes of like, you know, I think I could

38:57

really be a good bishop. like

39:00

suddenly Christlike, oh, no. No. No. That's the devil speaking. You know, I've gotta get

39:02

that out of me. But in reality, you know, this is

39:04

maybe a more sophisticated mindset that

39:06

you're experiencing. It doesn't mean that

39:09

you're hungry for, you know, for

39:11

power or anything like that. You're just thinking,

39:13

I wanna have an influence here. And so

39:15

the more we can move to that

39:17

mindset

39:17

of three point o where we're thinking, you

39:20

know, I don't even need a title,

39:22

but I think I can influence some ways. And in fact,

39:24

I'm going to proactively influence

39:26

the word or the the group I'm

39:28

in because that's a higher

39:30

sophistication. That's who God's created me to

39:32

be. You know, Ephesians, I am you

39:34

know, we are God's workmanship. He created us not to just be in

39:37

the pack of penguins, but to step out and really

39:39

make a difference, a positive influence.

39:42

Yeah. For sure. One of the things that's been really interesting to

39:44

me as I've studied this because then

39:46

the question becomes, how do we go about

39:50

vertically developing? Helping, yeah. So that's because

39:52

we've sort of laid this out, but it's like, oh,

39:54

there's somebody listening. Okay, Ryan. I

39:56

want to be a mind three point

39:58

o vertical developed

39:59

leader. So tell me where I get

40:02

my software or my operating system

40:04

upgrade. Right? Yeah. So I think

40:06

to to answer this question at one level, and we

40:08

could we could hopefully, we'll be

40:10

getting a chance to go a little bit deeper.

40:12

But when we go back to the definition of

40:14

vertical development, it's our ability to

40:16

make meaning of our world

40:18

incontinatively and emotionally sophisticated ways. Well, the key

40:20

term in that definition

40:22

is make

40:24

meaning. So

40:26

in order for us to elevate, we need to

40:28

focus on our meaning

40:31

makers. Well, what

40:33

are our meaning makers? our

40:35

meaning makers are our mindsets. The mental lenses that we wear that shake how

40:37

we view the world. We're gonna say it

40:39

together meaning makers mindsets Yeah.

40:41

go. like you're good. It was such a good elaboration. Yeah. There

40:44

you go. And I think so in

40:46

terms of the work that I do with organizations

40:48

and what my book success mindsets is all

40:50

about is helping people

40:52

awaken to four different sets of

40:54

mindsets that they can think about.

40:56

And these are fixed

40:58

in growth closed and open, prevention and promotion in inward and outward.

41:00

So if we can go to that episode and you

41:02

break it down a lot, but that's good. Yeah. Let me give you

41:04

an example of those. Let's look at inward and

41:06

outward mindset.

41:08

So when we have an inward mindset,

41:10

we see ourselves as more important than others. This

41:12

causes us to see others more

41:16

like objects. And so for

41:18

example, if we're and this is I think

41:20

everybody's been there. So I like this example. If we're if

41:22

we're driving down the road and somebody

41:24

puts their blinker on, and they wanna merge into our lane in front of us. I

41:26

don't know about you, Kurt, but I've been in this position

41:28

where I haven't let them in. Oh, sure. Right? Have

41:30

my week.

41:32

Yeah. And This is interesting

41:34

because what I'm saying to myself in this

41:36

situation, whether I'm conscious of this

41:38

or not, is my position in this

41:40

lane is more important to me than it is

41:42

to you. And the way that I justify this is I don't say I

41:44

didn't let that person in. I

41:46

say I didn't let that

41:48

car in. So

41:50

when I see them as being less important than me, I have

41:53

a tendency to objectify them. And this

41:55

is a very defensible thing

41:58

and but it's just not cognitively and

42:00

emotionally sophisticated.

42:02

It's much more cognitively and emotionally

42:04

sophisticated to just even the

42:07

and wonder wonder Why

42:08

are they in a hurry? What's going on in their

42:10

world? Mhmm. That is leading them to

42:12

want to get ahead in

42:15

this situation and There may be nothing. It

42:17

may just be that they're a But but we're okay with just sitting

42:20

in, I'm not sure, and

42:22

that's okay. So I'm just gonna let

42:24

them in. Their their position in

42:26

this this this lane is just important to them.

42:28

It is as it is to me. And that's

42:30

just a more cognitively and

42:32

emotionally sophisticated way of seeing this.

42:34

And so that's

42:36

kind of a surface level

42:38

example, if we could help people awaken to, are they inward minded

42:40

or are they outward minded, then they

42:43

could get a sense of

42:45

where they are. and where they need

42:47

to move to become more cognitively and emotionally sophisticated. So how's this

42:50

connected to the meaning makers? Like, in that

42:52

scenario, you're

42:54

you're bringing meaning to the person in the car, which is humanizing them

42:56

and and bringing deeper meaning to it.

42:58

Is that where the vehicle comes? I'm

43:00

making meaning

43:03

of this situation. If I have this

43:05

inward mindset that I am more important than

43:07

them and they're an object. Uh-huh.

43:09

And as opposed to making meaning

43:11

of they're a person, that as

43:14

just as much right and need to

43:16

get into this lane as I do. Okay. So

43:18

this is like a tactic that one could use

43:20

to make shift them into the right mindset,

43:22

which hopefully helps them vertically develop. Yeah. And the reason why I chose

43:24

this mindset to focus in on because

43:27

I think it's one

43:30

of the things that has helped me probably done to

43:32

most to help me to become more like

43:34

Jesus Christ than anything else.

43:37

mean, in terms of upgrading my internal

43:39

operating system. So and I

43:41

probably have shared this example

43:44

before, but it's just been really profound

43:46

to me. is I think for most of my adult I

43:48

would see other people. I would make

43:50

meaning of them as though they are

43:52

not doing their best. And

43:55

so in a way this would play out is if I would see

43:57

a homeless person on the street corner asking

43:59

for assistance, I would see them

44:02

as not doing their best. And if I see them as not

44:04

doing their best, I'm really quick to become

44:06

critical of them. Why in the world are you asking

44:08

me for my harder money when you're just

44:10

standing there? Maybe go do something more

44:12

productive with your life. Go get

44:14

a job. Right? That was me. Mhmm. Is that very

44:16

savior like or no? No.

44:18

Right? But it

44:20

felt justifiable. And it wasn't

44:22

until I read a great book

44:24

by Bernae Brown called Rising Strong, and there's

44:26

this fantastic chapter in there that talks about

44:28

this in in and she

44:30

encouraged me reading it to

44:32

see other people as

44:34

though they are doing the best. And so

44:36

the next time I pulled up to a street corner and

44:38

saw somebody standing there give her

44:40

assistance. I cognitively and intentionally

44:42

said, okay, see them as

44:44

though they're doing their best and it led me to ask

44:46

a question that I had never

44:48

asked before. which

44:48

was what in the world has happened

44:49

in their life that has led them to believe

44:52

this is the best way

44:54

to live. And

44:56

immediately upon asking that question, I grew

44:58

empathetic. And this felt really weird to

45:00

me because I like, my heart

45:02

literally dropped. Like, It kind of broke

45:04

for that person. What had they been through?

45:06

And I had never seen them in that light

45:08

before. Right? What I

45:10

was doing In that moment, with that inward mindset is I

45:12

was well, I would see them and my

45:14

mind would immediately say,

45:16

what's wrong

45:18

with you? But now with this trying to take on more of this

45:20

hour mindset, the question wasn't

45:22

what's wrong with you. It was

45:24

now what has happened

45:26

to you.

45:27

the And

45:28

I feel that

45:29

by seeing others in that way,

45:31

I have become a much

45:33

more compassionate person and I

45:35

feel like I'm more like my savior

45:38

because I believe that

45:40

that's how our savior

45:42

sees us. that he

45:44

sees us as people. And

45:46

when we do dumb stuff, he

45:49

doesn't ask the question, what's wrong with

45:51

them? he wonders what has happened in them. And in

45:53

fact, I think he ultimately

45:56

knows what has happened to us,

45:58

and it makes complete sense to us why

45:59

we did what we did, not that he fully

46:02

agrees with it, but I get it.

46:04

Yeah. He did

46:04

it. And that to me, this is where

46:07

his arms of mercy reach out. This

46:09

is the power of the atonement

46:11

is that he is able

46:13

to say despite your dumb

46:15

decision, some of the reason why you

46:17

did this, right outside of

46:20

your control, And I happen to give up my life so that you don't have to

46:22

pay the consequence -- Yeah. -- for that. You know, this

46:24

is what I've thought about this a lot in the

46:26

context of

46:28

acceptance. to me that one of the greatest

46:30

miracles of what makes the the atonement of Jesus Christ so powerful

46:32

is this concept that

46:35

no matter who we are and

46:37

what we've done, he fully accepts us in the exact place that

46:39

we are at. Right? And it really is tied to

46:41

how you've unpacked us

46:44

that he understands why we've made every decision,

46:46

why we are weak, and because

46:48

of that full understanding of who we are,

46:50

he accepts us fully right where we

46:54

are. And then the miracle, there's a great quote by Karl Rogers of I

46:56

don't have verbatim. But, like, in the moment,

46:58

I realize at the moment that I fully

47:00

accept myself is when I can begin to

47:04

change. And with the savior, the moment we realize

47:06

that he fully accepts us for

47:08

who we are, then we begin to enhance.

47:11

then that operating system begins to level up.

47:14

Because what we're actually doing

47:16

and this is where, to me, it's

47:18

so profound and deep is we're

47:20

when we take that on, we're actually healing from

47:23

our own past, from our own trauma, some

47:25

of which we may not have been

47:27

in control over. and many of us hold shame over

47:29

some of those things. And when we see him accept us, we're

47:32

starting to heal from that trauma.

47:34

And so the thing that's

47:36

unique is when we talk about trauma is

47:38

it's connected to our stress

47:40

response system, our nervous system. And

47:42

to me, One of the

47:44

examples of the savior that I think is

47:46

amazing is when he's out at

47:48

sea and it's this stormy sea

47:50

and he's sleeping, He's

47:52

got a nervous system that is like

47:54

a rock. Right? Is he's not

47:56

stressed out over this? And

47:58

in in fact, he's kind of and all of his, you know,

48:01

the apostles are stressing out,

48:03

and he's essentially, like,

48:05

Why are you guys stressing out? You guys are freaking out

48:07

over something that you don't need to -- Yeah. -- freak

48:09

out over. That's an operating system. And it

48:12

it is part of their their

48:14

central nervous system. and his

48:16

is such to the degree,

48:18

to which something doesn't something

48:20

small. And I'm not saying the small everted

48:22

something big, doesn't set

48:24

him off. Right? When he's in church, if he's

48:26

sitting in our sacrament, meaning these are in our

48:28

Sunday school, and somebody says some off the

48:30

wall comment he

48:32

doesn't stand up and this is I don't agree

48:34

with Christlike, he is able to be

48:36

mindful, to be present. He

48:39

doesn't do that. I don't imagine him

48:42

me set them straight. I imagine

48:44

him being the one who after class goes

48:46

around and puts his arm over that person

48:48

and says, Let

48:50

me better understand where you're coming from. Yeah. Or who may take some time to

48:52

draw on the dirt. Right? And -- Yeah. --

48:54

because he's so centered. He's

48:58

just present in there for that person. Yeah. Yeah. And so part

49:00

of us vertically developing is

49:02

really getting our central nervous system

49:05

and our stress response system under

49:08

control. And the thing about when

49:10

we've, most of us, I mean,

49:12

statistically, have been through trauma that

49:14

has inhibited

49:16

our stress autism that has made us a little bit

49:18

more reactive and a little less mindful

49:20

than what we should. And so this is where

49:22

practices like meditation

49:24

come in. Meditation has

49:26

been proven to be one of the

49:28

best ways to

49:30

elevate and improve our

49:33

stress response so that our window of tolerance isn't really

49:35

small, but something small doesn't set us off,

49:38

doesn't trigger us. And we're able

49:40

to when when somebody says

49:42

something that we might

49:44

disagree with at church. We

49:46

don't get all up in arms and get

49:48

defensive. We're able to sit back

49:50

and what

49:52

about this? might actually

49:53

be helpful for me to

49:53

understand that I haven't explored

49:56

before. Yeah. You know, I have a

49:58

maybe a perfect example for this or or

49:59

application of

50:02

this. is when I say that the Sunday school answer,

50:04

right? An

50:04

answer comes to mind for you. So let's

50:06

say you're in a Sunday school class and someone

50:10

says, The most simple of questions is how do we show faith in Jesus

50:12

Christ? And what do people

50:14

generally default to? Praise Reager

50:17

scriptures and go to try that some people call it the

50:19

seminary answer. Right? And it's typically

50:22

around action or checklist or

50:24

doing something. Right? And I

50:26

I've written a little bit about this, but in my mind,

50:28

there's a new Sunday school answer

50:30

that really ties into this

50:32

perfectly is that in order to show faith in Jesus

50:34

Christ, the first that before you can

50:36

do anything is you have to get

50:38

to a place where you feel one hundred percent

50:40

accepted by the Savior of Jesus Christ. If

50:42

you don't have that acceptance, any action

50:44

you do will only be in the effort of

50:46

trying to earn some type of acceptance or love

50:48

from the savior, but it is not until you have

50:50

that acceptance. that you can then move

50:52

forward and and actually

50:54

upgrade your operating system.

50:56

It starts with that acceptance in the grace of

50:58

Jesus Christ before any

51:00

action doing can do anything. Yeah. I don't know about you,

51:02

Kurt. I feel like I've seen a

51:04

lot of people in

51:06

the church. that really

51:08

beat themselves up over stuff that

51:10

they've done. Doesn't take long for a bishop

51:12

to it's to see that in his office where

51:14

it's like, wow. Yeah. Like, you

51:16

are really your worst enemy in a lot of these scenarios. And it's almost

51:18

like when we're there. And I think I've been there. I think most

51:20

people have been there because there's a human It's a certain

51:22

level of cognitive and emotional

51:24

sophistication, but

51:26

we it's almost like we hear keeping score that it's about tallies,

51:28

our wins, and our losses Mhmm. --

51:30

in a way. And that to

51:33

me, that's the beauty of just what you're talking about with this

51:35

idea as acceptances. Christ isn't

51:37

keeping I don't think he's

51:39

keeping score. Mhmm. because he

51:42

understands us perfectly. I mean, the reality

51:44

is, and in fact, research backs it

51:46

up that, like, trauma

51:48

that we experience within the first two months

51:50

of our life have life changing

51:52

effects on us. Even prenatal

51:54

trauma, like if our if our

51:56

mother was was she was

51:59

pregnant, did drugs or did alcohol or was

52:02

abused, then that child

52:04

is think it's like

52:06

twenty times more likely to get

52:08

addicted to drugs. Right? And we

52:10

like to think that, you know,

52:12

our dare programs in school or what we

52:14

talk about in churches say no to

52:16

drugs that that's a

52:18

conscious decision. No. It's something that is actually related

52:20

to our neural process. Yeah. And

52:22

some of which we had no control over

52:24

and so

52:26

when we say for people to repent, and this is

52:28

the other thing that I love about this concept to vertical

52:30

development, when we're helping people

52:34

repent, really what we're doing Helping help them changing their

52:36

hearts. Yeah. We're helping them change how they're

52:38

making meaning of their

52:40

world. We're creating how they

52:42

make meaning along before they make change

52:44

their behavior. Right. Yeah. And that's typically

52:46

where we start. Yeah. It's like, alright. Well, how's the how's the

52:48

Internet filtered doing? You know, like, let's focus

52:50

on the bigger rather than the heart. Right. Yeah. And so

52:52

that's and so I hope that

52:54

I guess it's my hope in that we

52:56

have this conversation, and we're

52:58

throwing out this new concept of vertical development. I

53:00

just kind of are hope I'm hoping

53:02

that people can see that

53:05

vertical development is different than

53:07

our typical approaches in the church

53:09

and then it's more aligned with

53:11

the purpose of the gospel which is becoming more and

53:13

more like our savior And if we

53:15

could start having more conversations about what vertical development is

53:18

and how we go about vertical vertically

53:22

Helping, then I think we're

53:24

in better position to create circumstances within our church

53:26

that facilitate this. Because I

53:28

think if people largely are

53:32

gonna vertically develop as members of the church, they kinda have to do it

53:34

on their own time period. Like, they actually do

53:36

are doing it outside of church, but what if we

53:38

can help people do it within church?

53:42

And I think that would be a pretty profound -- Yeah.

53:45

-- experience. Yeah. I love that.

53:46

This is what I'm learning as as we go through

53:48

them, taking notes as far as, like, because know

53:51

people listen, like, Ryan, just give me a checklist. Right? Like, just tell

53:53

me what to do. I wanna upgrade my operating

53:56

system. Right? And and there we are, like, in that

53:58

mind one point o. But not nonetheless,

54:00

like, Here's some maybe places to start that that come to mind. One

54:02

is just like getting to a place of

54:04

realizing that you are fully

54:05

accepted by Jesus Christ right now, not

54:07

like if down the

54:10

once you finally get that recommended, like, right now, you're fully accepted. Now if

54:12

that, that may be more difficult for some

54:14

than others because maybe

54:16

some have experienced trauma. And so

54:18

that's where maybe a good therapist comes in into account of saying, you know, I'm

54:21

gonna go address this. This is I kept it

54:23

buried. I know it's there, but and this

54:25

actually, the episode previous to

54:28

this will talks

54:28

a lot about therapy and and this concept of trauma and how Christ

54:30

heals trauma through therapy,

54:32

that maybe you need

54:34

to maybe that's

54:34

a play star. I'm just gonna go someone.

54:37

I know I feel pretty okay. Life is manageable. I'm

54:39

gonna go sit down and see if I can articulate

54:41

what this pain is. And then simple

54:44

things like mindfulness, meditation. This is something I this last

54:46

Sunday, I did this where a lot of times

54:48

even, you know, I'm such a busy body and I

54:50

probably have some level

54:52

of ADD, And so I'm always just

54:54

like, I'm busy doing stuff. I wanna oh, okay.

54:56

Come follow me. I said, hey. Let's open up the section.

54:58

Here we go. Like, I'm gonna watch this YouTube

55:00

video or whatever. But last night, I

55:02

told myself, you know, I want to really

55:04

concentrate my Sabbath to God

55:06

and sometimes I'm like, well, today,

55:08

what it means for this Sabbath is I still listen to

55:10

podcasts, but I listen to spiritual podcast.

55:12

So here we go, you know. But I'm like, no. I'm I

55:14

wanna do something different. So I woke up early. I'm

55:16

usually the first person in my in my house awake,

55:18

and I went down to my kitchen and I just sat at

55:20

my kitchen table. and that's it. And I

55:22

told myself, I'm just gonna sit here for thirty

55:24

minutes. I'll be screaming inside. I

55:26

know I will, but -- Yeah. -- and it wasn't even like I'm

55:28

going to meditate for thirty minutes.

55:30

I'm like, I'm just going to, like, sit here and invite the Lord into my

55:32

Sabbath. And I don't know what that means, and I don't know

55:34

if a vision's gonna open up. It didn't. But --

55:36

Yeah. -- nonetheless, I was just there

55:38

and, like, there was a good level of

55:40

acceptance of just Christlike, I'm doing

55:42

nothing because I wanna connect with God. And it

55:44

was it was a great experience. Now that again,

55:46

now it was life training, but it's something I'll probably do again. Yeah.

55:48

So any other, like, places to

55:50

start as far as upgrading that you haven't

55:52

talked about

55:54

already. No. Well, I I would just echo the things that you've said.

55:56

I maybe let me point people

55:58

to maybe a few resources or

56:00

books that they

56:02

might like. So I

56:04

think, Bernae Brown's work

56:06

around being accepted, feeling accepted

56:08

by the savior over so all of her work is

56:10

about overcoming shame. Shame is something that

56:12

we all carry around. And in fact, I

56:14

think when people in the

56:16

church shut down the ideas of others,

56:18

I think it's rooted in shame and trauma

56:20

and things related to that. And

56:22

and so I've gotten to the point where I used to get a little bit upset with

56:24

people when they would shut down the ideas of others and

56:26

now I'm to the point where, oh, not what's

56:28

wrong with you? What happened

56:30

to you? Yeah. And in fact, that's kind of my next suggestion is book

56:32

that I found incredibly profound is

56:34

a book. And I'm spacing the first

56:36

author's name. I think it's Bruce Johnson. I

56:39

could be wrong. and Oprah Winfrey tag team together to write a

56:41

book called what happened to you. And it's all about

56:44

the role that trauma plays and how we could go

56:46

about healing

56:48

from trauma And if somebody wants to dive even deeper in

56:50

trauma and to learn more about

56:52

therapy and other different therapy

56:54

modalities that can

56:56

help people repair from trauma and really

56:58

heal their minds. And that's really the

57:00

purpose of the gospel and the purpose of vertical

57:02

development at the end of the day is about healing. The

57:04

other book

57:06

is called body keeps the score. Mhmm. And that's been

57:08

a really profound and deep book. So I

57:10

those are a couple of really good resources

57:14

Another one that is around inward and outward mindsets

57:16

is the bonds that make us

57:18

free. It's written by Terry Warner, and

57:22

that one will rock your

57:24

world. If you thought you were a good

57:26

person, you read that book, you'll realize that you're

57:28

not as good of a person as you can at least that was

57:30

my experience. all in a good way.

57:32

All in a good way. Of course, I could beat myself up. But it it really pushed

57:34

me and it's at the central heart

57:37

of that book is about

57:40

charity and having the

57:42

Christ like charity that we that we need

57:44

and it's not easy to get

57:46

there. Yeah. Love that. Awesome, man. Am I good? A lot of books to to

57:48

look up here. Have we covered it all? Yeah. It's

57:50

pretty good. All all good. I just hope this is

57:52

a a start of

57:54

a discussion. for people who are

57:56

listening to this to dive into it. And I

57:58

even maybe hopefully between me and you,

57:59

Kurt, is a start of a discussion.

58:02

And and as I continue working

58:04

this on this book and it's, I think,

58:06

gonna come out next summer. Next summer, maybe

58:08

we'll have some more thoughts as I

58:10

continue to think about some of these

58:12

things and try to make connections between these

58:14

concepts and and the gospel of the purpose of the

58:16

gospel and how we could help other people

58:18

better live the gospel. Yeah. Come more like

58:20

our savior. anybody wants to

58:22

connect or even on a professional level and check out

58:24

what you do, or would you just send them? Yeah.

58:26

My website, ryan goffordson dot com

58:28

or probably next best

58:30

place would be LinkedIn or I'm on

58:32

Facebook as well, but I'm just not as active there.

58:34

Yeah. So

58:36

just finish that's off with just any final encouragement you give to

58:38

someone who's maybe excited by this

58:40

concept and wants to see

58:42

vertical development in

58:44

their life. Yeah. I think at the end

58:46

of the day, the thing that I I keep coming back to is,

58:48

I apply it in a business

58:52

arena, I work with business

58:54

leaders all the time where we see

58:56

statistics like sixty five percent of

58:58

employees say no. Seventy five percent of employees

59:00

say that their leader is the most stressful part of their

59:02

job. Now I don't know any leader that wakes up in

59:04

the morning and says, oh, I really want to lay

59:07

on the stress for my employees. It

59:09

just so happens that they're probably in a mind level

59:11

one point or or mind level two point o

59:14

that leads them to engage in behaviors

59:16

that feel good to them, but are actually

59:18

detrimental. And so

59:20

all of this is connected back to

59:22

really the wiring in our brain and probably

59:24

some past trauma that they've experienced.

59:26

and they're just sitting at a vertical development level

59:28

that isn't setting them up for being their

59:31

most ideal self or

59:33

their potential best and At

59:35

the end of the day, even when I work with

59:37

business leaders, all of this is about

59:40

healing. Healing our mind

59:42

and healing our hearts. and the connection

59:44

between the two is our central nervous

59:46

system. So to me, this is a really

59:48

meaningful and profound way

59:50

of approaching other people whether

59:52

it's in a spiritual setting or in a

59:54

professional And to me, I think it's

59:56

I would like to think it's something that

59:58

everybody would like to

59:59

gravitate towards.

1:00:07

That concludes this

1:00:10

episode

1:00:11

of The Leading Saints podcast. We'd love

1:00:13

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1:00:16

your or thoughts or comments. You can either leave a comment on the

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individuals in your ward council or

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other leaders that you may know who would really appreciate

1:00:44

the perspectives that we discussed. And

1:00:46

that concludes this throwback

1:00:48

episode of Saints Saints

1:00:50

Podcast. And remember, to get on the email newsletter list simply

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1:00:56

fourteen.

1:00:58

It came as

1:00:59

a result of the position of

1:01:02

leadership which was imposed

1:01:04

upon us by the

1:01:06

God of heaven who brought forth

1:01:08

a restoration of the gospel

1:01:11

of Jesus Christ. and when the

1:01:13

decoration was made concerning the old and only true and

1:01:16

living church upon the face of

1:01:18

the earth.

1:01:20

we were immediately put in a position of

1:01:22

loneliness. The loneliness of

1:01:25

leadership from which we

1:01:28

cannot shrink nor run away and to

1:01:30

which we must face up with

1:01:32

boldness and courage and

1:01:36

ability.