0:02

Welcome

0:02

to part

0:02

two of this week's podcast.

0:14

On that point with because you

0:17

said that God needed you to be honest. And

0:19

so as a as a church leader, you feel like,

0:21

okay, it's my job to get Stephen

0:23

honest and radically honest. is

0:25

I'm gonna beat him up a little bit in my office

0:27

and make it like, hey, you gotta

0:29

be honest here or whatnot. So, I mean,

0:31

what's a church leader supposed

0:33

to do that concept because they can't because

0:36

the the church leader can't force you to get

0:38

that wake up call per se. Right? God

0:40

had to find you on that path and sort

0:42

of shaky. So is it safe to say sometimes

0:45

that person just may not be there yet and you

0:47

just have to be patient with it? Or how would

0:49

you direct that? Well, a person's always

0:51

gonna have their agency and we will never

0:53

force them to be humble. We will never

0:55

force them to be accountable. We'll never

0:58

force them to be completely honest. That

1:00

is between ourselves and God. Yeah.

1:02

And

1:02

I do believe that what happens

1:05

in a person's life is God gives us a

1:07

number of interruptions. I've had lots of

1:09

interruptions. Yeah. And all of them blessings

1:11

from God in his patient

1:13

loving way is basically waiting

1:16

for me to come to myself 2

1:18

use my agency wisely to

1:21

learn how to well, use the term now

1:23

called surrender. Yeah. Surrender

1:26

to him where the power really is for recovery.

1:28

So with that honesty and

1:31

there's a powerful scripture and I'll It's

1:34

Alma thirty four:thirty one. It

1:36

actually is one of my very favorite scriptures

1:38

because it is true in that what

1:40

happens when person like myself

1:42

chooses to become radically honest.

1:45

Scripture

1:45

is, yeah, I would that you would come

1:47

forth and harden not your hearts any

1:49

longer.

1:50

For behold, now is the time and

1:52

the day of your salvation. Therefore,

1:54

if you will repent and harden

1:57

out your hearts, immediately will

1:59

the great plan

1:59

of redemption be brought about up to you?

2:02

Mhmm.

2:02

What that saying is, god

2:05

is inviting us to

2:07

soften our hearts and become

2:09

dependent in our desires

2:11

and our will. And then immediately upon

2:14

that actually occurring within our spirit

2:16

and our body, God will step

2:18

in and that instant his

2:20

hand is involved in being able to help us.

2:23

until then I'm on my own

2:25

because I he's not going to interrupt

2:27

my agency. So and it makes me

2:29

wonder, like and this goes back to your story

2:31

as well, Chris, is Like, why not,

2:33

like,

2:34

before you serve that mission, Chris? Why

2:36

didn't he have, you know, disrupt your life

2:38

enough? Or why not, Steven, when you were

2:40

thirty five, why didn't he cause you to get

2:42

arrested then. Right? What comes to mind

2:44

as far as your story, Chris? Like, is

2:46

this concept of because there's

2:49

everybody in recovery has that moment where they

2:51

sort of shift. Right? To it's not just

2:53

about sobriety anymore. It's about recovery.

2:55

But what thoughts come to mind for you, Chris?

2:57

Well,

2:58

that's an interesting question. I wish I had

3:00

a really solid answers the timing,

3:03

but I knew, no God, that he

3:05

is in the timing and he is a

3:07

very student centered teacher. And

3:09

as a result, he's not going to deny

3:12

us those lessons we have to learn to progress

3:14

become more like him. So

3:16

it took me longer. I mean, sometimes I I

3:18

envy guys in their twenties who are in recovery

3:21

and they they've got this figured out and they

3:23

have tools Well, Steven and I

3:25

didn't have tools. We didn't know

3:27

decades ago what we were even

3:29

dealing with. And so the fact that we

3:31

have tools now and the people are talking about this

3:34

And that's the greatest thing that's come

3:36

of my disclosure on

3:38

your podcast back in February was that

3:41

people 2 to talk about it now. and

3:43

that's a powerful, powerful thing. So

3:46

I don't know exactly why it

3:48

took me as long as it did. I'm

3:50

grateful in the end that

3:52

I met where I'm at and take today, the

3:54

recording is on the fifteenth of the month,

3:56

and it's forty three months. of

3:58

sobriety going back to April

4:00

fifteenth of twenty nineteen.

4:03

So I'm just so grateful

4:05

to God First of all, that

4:07

he trusted me back in twenty thirteen when he

4:09

said, you'll need to tell your story.

4:11

And the thing that that makes me love

4:13

Steven is The general

4:15

authority that restart his temple blessings is

4:17

the same general authority I disclosed this

4:19

2. No. The very same person. And

4:23

that makes me feel connected to both of

4:25

them and and since he's passed away.

4:27

But I

4:27

don't know why the timing is. I do

4:29

know that God is in

4:31

the details, though, and I know that there's something

4:33

about that that

4:34

is very important. Yeah. And I guess I can bring that

4:36

up because I feel like some leaders are

4:38

thinking Alright. You know, Steven, tell me

4:40

what to do because I'm if I'm that bishop

4:42

with you at thirty five, I'm gonna make sure that

4:44

you don't have to go through this again and again. When

4:46

in reality, It's almost like God needed

4:48

to show you that three years of white

4:50

knuckling just doesn't work. And so let's try

4:52

this again, Steven, because you're you know,

4:54

as many times as it'll take, he'll

4:57

still come for you. And I think this, you know,

4:59

going back to the principal of surrender, like,

5:01

leaders have to surrender as well. They have to

5:03

surrender Steven. Be like, I can't force

5:05

him to be radically honest, he's on his

5:07

path. I'm gonna go you know, it looks like he's

5:09

been sober for a year or whatever. So let's,

5:11

you know, get him back, you know, integrated in

5:13

the church and callings and things. But God

5:16

may still be on that path with you. Right? That

5:18

that we have to surrender as leaders that you're

5:20

not gonna do everything right so that Steven

5:22

does have to make this a thirty year journey

5:24

rather than

5:25

a ten year journey. Right. Yeah.

5:27

Well, the the Lord has given us

5:29

agency that we can grow and experience

5:32

all the opportunities that this

5:34

life gives. And so here we are in mortality

5:36

with weakness. Yeah. Weakness is

5:38

mortality. And that's here we are with

5:40

this incredibly blessing

5:42

of being in this beautiful earth with

5:44

incredible people blessed with the

5:46

testimony of the gospel of Jesus Christ

5:48

and his atonement. And then here we

5:50

are. Here I am a believer in all of

5:52

this, yet I'm choosing to

5:54

go against that in my behavior. why

5:57

would I, after that first experience,

6:00

not recognize that I was dealing with

6:02

an addiction, that's a very

6:04

difficult thing to understand and

6:06

to accept. And until I was

6:08

willing to actually acknowledge that

6:10

many, many years later, I didn't

6:12

know what it meant to put boundaries and

6:14

bottom lines in place and honestly

6:17

abide by them. I didn't know what the

6:19

concept of surrender was. I didn't know how

6:21

important it was for me to be involved with

6:23

others in recovery. where I could

6:25

share my story and more importantly be able

6:27

to help other people. I didn't understand

6:29

this concept of how important it

6:31

was for me to be honest

6:33

about every aspect of my life. We

6:35

use the term radically honest.

6:37

What does that mean? It means if I have a

6:39

coke for lunch, And I'm really

6:41

not supposed to have a coke for lunch, not because

6:43

it's got caffeine in it, but

6:45

because it's got caffeine and sugar

6:47

and I get sick and I I get problems

6:50

with my digestive track and everything else

6:52

yet, I still think that I need to have

6:54

a coke. But because I know I

6:56

shouldn't be having one, I don't 2 my wife that I

6:58

had a coke for lunch. Now that is

7:00

not radically honest. Mhmm. If I have

7:02

a Coke for lunch, I need to say I

7:04

had a Coke for lunch. So

7:06

in that simple honesty, there's

7:08

power, and there's connection, and there's

7:10

restoration of trust, which

7:12

has been broken so importantly. So

7:14

if I were to talk about if I were to

7:17

and my wife and I have many, many

7:19

opportunities just to speak with people a

7:21

couple oftentimes about

7:23

recovery, and

7:24

it's impossible for us to share

7:27

the actual

7:28

growth that comes from working

7:30

all of the work of recovery, all of the

7:33

process of recovery. We can talk

7:35

about it, but a person doesn't

7:37

know it until they actually experience it

7:39

themselves. And my thought I don't know. This

7:41

is my thought that just popped into my mind at the

7:43

moment. The savior, when

7:45

he he was called from the

7:47

beginning, as the Savior knew

7:49

that his calling would be to

7:51

immortality, suffer, and

7:54

atone in the incredible ways,

7:56

and I'm sure instructed constantly

7:59

about what that meant. But until

8:01

he got to that experience, he

8:03

didn't know. Mhmm. And when

8:05

he asked god, his father

8:08

isn't there another way, he

8:10

was asking not because he didn't

8:12

wanna do it. but he recognized

8:14

how difficult it was. And

8:16

isn't there another way? And

8:18

the father said essentially no.

8:20

there is no other way. The savior

8:22

went through that, but didn't really,

8:25

really know it until he experienced it.

8:27

And I think that way in the work of recovery.

8:29

We can talk about it all we want,

8:31

but a person must go through the process.

8:34

And, Chris, I don't know if if this

8:36

has been your experience. But I

8:38

had to be willing to go to

8:40

a meeting with an open heart and

8:42

find a sponsor and hear his

8:44

story and tell my story

8:46

and go through that process and so that

8:48

I knew what it meant to have

8:50

someone not judge me when I

8:52

told my story. I had to be able to

8:54

then experience all of

8:56

this work where I'm acknowledging

8:58

my character defects, where I'm recognizing

9:01

that God is the only one that can really

9:03

heal me. And then I know that I've

9:05

got to make amends. I know that I've got

9:07

to acknowledge when I'm wrong. and

9:09

I need to be given an opportunity to

9:11

help other people.

9:12

Nowhere else is

9:13

that opportunity as

9:16

succinct as it is in working the

9:18

twelve steps. Because

9:20

there isn't an opportunity to

9:22

be radically honest without

9:24

shame, sadly,

9:26

in an elder's quorum meeting today. It

9:28

just doesn't work that way. Yeah. And I

9:30

could tell some stories about that. I was anyway,

9:32

I won't go into detail there, but we

9:34

can't. In that environment, be

9:37

that radically honest, but there are places

9:39

where we can and that

9:41

is critical. We can do that in a

9:43

qualified therapist's office. We can do that in a

9:45

bishop's office. We can do that in a twelve

9:47

step meeting. We can find people who

9:49

are understanding and support us in our

9:51

recovery. And if we don't

9:53

do that, we are

9:55

essentially inside ourselves, which is a

9:57

very dangerous place to be. Yeah.

9:59

Thealcoholics would

9:59

say, if you're in your own head, you're

10:02

behind enemy lines and that's true. Wow. And

10:04

that's so helpful. You know, you know, we have

10:06

this long tradition and doctrine of

10:08

confession, you know, in the bishop's office. And sometimes it

10:10

feels like, why are we doing this? Like,

10:12

I don't have to tell this random

10:14

person in my neighborhood, these things. But,

10:16

again, you're practicing this radical honesty. Right?

10:18

It's a a venue for you to

10:20

step into and be able to practice it. And then you maybe

10:22

the the twelve steps, then you'd 2 to

10:24

practice it. Right? And maybe we can get other corn do

10:26

a place where we can be a little more radically

10:29

honest because they're is a healing

10:31

nature of that surrender of that

10:33

information. Right? It is out in the open.

10:35

I have no control over anymore. And

10:37

here we go. Right? Yeah. And

10:38

what we find, excuse me, Chris, you've got something to say.

10:40

But I will say that what we find is,

10:42

when I've told my story, I don't

10:44

find people out there judging

10:46

me. I found people out there

10:48

wanting to understand because oftentimes

10:51

they need to help us well.

10:53

Yeah. So it comes to micros. Yeah.

10:55

That's that's certainly true. I'm reminded

10:57

of a experience that I had as

10:59

I sat with a person and a

11:01

reconvening to consider

11:03

this person being rep re baptized

11:05

and again,

11:06

well intending priests and leaders

11:09

suggest, you know, I'd rather

11:11

you spend more time working on

11:13

the atonement of Jesus Christ and get

11:15

healing from that You've

11:16

talked a lot about twelve steps, and that's

11:18

fine. But I want you to put more

11:20

effort on this. And

11:22

as I've gone forward

11:24

in my recovery since that time. I've

11:26

come

11:26

to realize that the twelve steps this

11:29

is what I say. I said there's twelve steps

11:31

to Jesus. because that's exactly where

11:34

we are taken when we in step

11:36

one, we confess that

11:38

we can't do it. without

11:40

his help. And, you know,

11:42

step ten talks about when

11:44

we're wrong, promptly admitted. Well,

11:46

that's a hard one. for me. And so as

11:48

I try to practice this thing that

11:50

honesty does indeed bring me

11:52

closer to the Savior of Jesus Christ,

11:54

And one of my favorite scriptures is close to the

11:57

one that Stephen shared in

11:59

Alma and Alma

12:00

thirty six where he tells his conversion

12:02

story to his sons. And in

12:04

the process of that, and and you

12:06

might be familiar with some people with a

12:08

literary style called Qiasmos,

12:10

where you tell a story

12:12

through a's through point a

12:14

through h, and then you repeat the story

12:16

like an hourglass in

12:18

reverse order. If

12:19

you look at alba thirty six and it's a

12:22

beautiful example of a chiasmus,

12:24

verse eighteen seems to be the middle

12:26

and it's set. Oh, Jesus,

12:28

thou said of god, have

12:30

mercy on me. And

12:32

isn't that the crux 2 the

12:35

gospel? nothing

12:36

else matters

12:39

except his willingness to extend

12:41

mercy and grace to us

12:43

LDS children.

12:44

So what the recovery

12:47

does because of

12:48

that honesty,

12:50

you

12:50

invite the savior into your life.

12:53

And I

12:53

have to say 2, and I think I did at the beginning of this,

12:56

that addiction cannot

12:58

survive the light of Christ.

13:00

You know, you will wilt. in

13:02

his presence. But we

13:04

have to make that invitation. We have

13:06

to be transparent in the, you

13:08

know, the the honesty we're talking about

13:10

here. allows

13:11

that to happen without that honesty.

13:14

I don't

13:14

think we can get there. Yeah. And,

13:16

like, the principal in learning here

13:18

is, like, there's somebody out there who's, like, so

13:21

buried and game, that the first step

13:23

is just to begin to be radically honest. And

13:25

it could be, like, you're just gonna be radically

13:27

honest about your lunch, you know, to start with.

13:29

And then because there's I feel like there's such a

13:31

way to, like, okay, I've gotta walk in the other

13:33

room and disclose to my spouse like what

13:35

I've done or I gotta set the appointment with

13:37

the bishop and whatnot. But just

13:39

begin on that radical honesty and

13:41

then that practice that surrender,

13:43

which will guide you to the next step.

13:45

Right.

13:45

Yeah. Well, with radical

13:48

honesty, that next step is

13:50

God is now walking with us.

13:52

Right? And I believe that to the core

13:54

of my heart, with radical

13:56

honesty, god is walking with

13:58

us. If I am dishonest, then

13:59

how can I expect the blessing

14:02

to come? because he's not going

14:04

to he's not going to interrupt my

14:06

agency. That's my choice. Yeah. On this

14:08

topic, let me ask, you know, this

14:10

is concept of disclosure because often

14:12

as I hear different stories, the

14:14

the story, you know, of recovery

14:16

usually begins with I finally went into

14:18

the bishop's office and disclosed. Right?

14:20

wouldn't talk to my wife and disclose,

14:22

but is that always the best

14:24

first step? Or because

14:26

sometimes I worry that we feel like we have to

14:28

start with the bishop's office in order to

14:30

disclose there and you that's the starting

14:32

point where, in reality, maybe you

14:34

find a good therapist at the at the beginning,

14:36

or maybe you just call a friend and start talking

14:38

with them about What what thoughts

14:40

come 2 mind? Well,

14:42

it seems that the most common place

14:44

where people start is in the bishop's office --

14:46

Mhmm. -- whether that's necessarily the right

14:48

spot or not. sometimes there will

14:50

be disclosure to a friend, and that is

14:53

really not a place

14:55

generally where a lot of real

14:57

help will be found. Sometimes there will

14:59

be some acceptance and

15:02

maybe a person will express their love

15:04

and concern, but there's oftentimes not

15:06

an understanding of help. But I

15:08

do think that within the church, most

15:10

often, especially young people, will

15:13

oftentimes disclose to their parents sometimes

15:15

not, and they'll they'll they'll talk to their

15:17

bishop about the use of pornography,

15:20

sometimes masturbation, sometimes

15:22

both. And in that kind of

15:24

disclosure, there is power.

15:26

The challenge then with the

15:28

individuals that's giving that disclosure

15:30

and in honestly confessing

15:32

The challenge then becomes what do I

15:34

do thereafter with

15:37

this? Because oftentimes, especially

15:39

young people think, okay, I've done what I

15:41

was supposed to do. I've confessed, now

15:43

I'm gonna go on with my life. Mhmm. And

15:45

literally leaving the bishop's office, there is

15:47

a lighter feeling. I have

15:49

confessed. there is an immediate blessing

15:51

for doing this. When

15:52

it's honest, there's an immediate blessing.

15:55

Okay? I've done what I was supposed to

15:57

do.

15:57

Not realizing that and

15:59

this is where we can get

15:59

into the idea of talking

16:02

about addiction. There are a

16:04

lot of people who want to 2, let's

16:06

not identify the use of

16:08

pornography, the repeated

16:10

compulsive use of pornography as an addiction

16:13

because oftentimes there are

16:15

some who say If we call in

16:17

an addiction, it becomes shaming

16:19

and people will then think of

16:21

themselves as a bad person and that will that will

16:23

hinder their ability to stop

16:25

the behavior. Well, that hasn't been my

16:27

experience. There are some who say,

16:29

let's not call an addiction. We can call it

16:31

a compulsion or a bad habit. Let's not call

16:33

an addiction. My feeling is

16:35

let's call it what it is. Mhmm. And

16:37

the research honestly is,

16:39

I believe, very conclusive

16:41

on this. that there are significant changes

16:43

that occur in the brain, there are

16:45

changes that occur spiritually and

16:47

emotionally no doubt. with

16:49

the repeated use of any

16:51

behavior that I mean, whether it's

16:53

overeating, under eating, whether

16:55

it's gambling, whether it's sex,

16:57

which all three are behavioral addictions. I

16:59

think we easily associate addiction

17:01

with substances. We don't easily

17:03

associate addiction with behavior.

17:05

My experiences, behavioral addictions can

17:08

actually become more much more difficult to

17:10

deal with than substance

17:12

addictions. we could go into that detail. But

17:14

rather than saying, I'm going to debate

17:16

with the bishop or someone else whether

17:18

I've got an ad addict an addiction

17:20

or not. What if I say, I

17:23

am dealing with something that

17:25

I have tried to stop

17:28

many times and been unable to do so.

17:30

I've gone back to it time and time

17:32

again even though I've repeatedly tried

17:34

to stop. Am I

17:35

a person that doesn't have

17:37

the moral character? to deal

17:39

with this. I just I'm just not strong

17:41

enough. I just don't have the will power. Why

17:43

is it that I'm going back to this? Well,

17:45

what if I say to myself

17:47

I'm not gonna try and figure out if this is is an addiction or not.

17:49

I'm going to recognize all

17:51

the damage that it's doing to my life and to

17:53

the lives of others, my inability to

17:56

connect my inability to connect with

17:58

god, my wife, with

17:59

others, and then

18:00

say, I

18:02

need to recognize that there are

18:04

certain things I must be willing to do and

18:07

maybe that would be to treat

18:09

this like an addiction. Maybe I

18:11

don't call myself an addict.

18:13

but I'm gonna treat this like an addiction, which means

18:15

I have to have boundaries, which

18:17

means I have to have bottom lines,

18:20

which needs me to be able to be honest about all

18:22

behaviors. And so with

18:24

that honesty, then I can

18:26

receive the help that I need.

18:28

In receiving the help that I need, I

18:30

may come to the conclusion that, yes,

18:32

my life has become unmanageable, and

18:35

it's not just because I'm a bad person with

18:37

no character and no willpower. It's

18:39

because literally I'm bound by the

18:41

chains of hell I'm dealing with

18:43

an addiction. Mhmm. And so that

18:45

idea that I had when I came forward for the first

18:47

time went to a twelve step meeting and felt

18:50

shame even talking about addiction.

18:52

I think is one that most people that enter

18:54

the rooms of recovery actually feel, and

18:56

I I empathize because I've

18:58

been there. I also recognized

19:00

that until I was willing to acknowledge

19:02

that I was dealing with something that

19:05

had a powerful, emotional,

19:07

spiritual, and physical impact on my

19:09

body that was lust until I was willing to

19:11

do certain things it had more power

19:13

than I was able to deal with. Period.

19:16

Yeah. That was my experience. Yeah.

19:18

Any

19:18

thoughts come to mind, Chris? I 2 I make sure to Yeah. I've had

19:20

conversations with members of

19:22

the

19:22

church and some with priest leaders

19:25

who have aversion to the

19:27

term addiction. Some people might remember

19:29

if they heard the podcast back in

19:31

February that, you know, my father's an

19:33

alcoholic, his father's an alcoholic,

19:36

my grandmother on that side

19:38

was an alcoholic. And so I

19:40

don't think it's coincidental. I think there's

19:42

a there's a genetic predis position.

19:44

Some families are fraught with one

19:46

challenge and some with another. And

19:48

so

19:48

That's not an excuse. Right? You're just

19:51

Right. Yeah. But but it's important to acknowledge

19:53

that because when I learned that,

19:55

I thought, well, maybe there's an explanation

19:57

other than I'm just a weak

19:59

moral repurpose. which is a lot of the

20:02

shame that people embrace when they

20:04

think I just can't stop doing

20:06

this. And so I think

20:07

it's important to understand that, but like you say, you can't

20:09

use that as an excuse. But I just think

20:12

in my journey, it's been very,

20:13

very important for me to acknowledge

20:16

that that plays a role. And so

20:18

when an individual has

20:20

an expresses an aversion to using

20:22

the term addiction. I just simply ask,

20:24

can Steven rehearse this? Is that do you

20:26

have a behavior that you don't like? Yes.

20:29

Have you tried hundreds of times stop 2 you can't?

20:31

Yes. Are you ashamed

20:34

by the fact that you can't

20:36

stop? Yes. So

20:37

call it what you want, but

20:40

it

20:40

is a biochemical brain

20:42

condition that you're dealing

20:45

with here. And

20:45

that understanding, again, not as an excuse,

20:48

but is it critically important to

20:50

understand that it could,

20:52

a, be genetic in its presence,

20:54

but also that it really

20:57

does have a chemical hook. And

20:59

I think anyone who struggle with this has

21:01

felt that flood of

21:04

whether it's adrenaline or

21:06

other drugs or chemicals that come into

21:08

our bloodstream, but we literally feel

21:10

that surge. Steven, have you

21:13

experienced that before? Of

21:15

course. Yeah. I think the acting

21:17

out behaviors have an immediate immediate

21:19

reward, lust certainly does. Yeah.

21:21

There's a chemical reaction

21:23

that gives our body

21:25

that surge of emotion and it

21:27

can be euphoric. The challenges is that

21:30

euphoric feeling that we feel like, oh, I'd

21:32

like to have that again. It has a very

21:34

serious downside to

21:36

it. because it's immediately followed by these feelings of

21:38

shame and anger towards oneself,

21:40

resentment towards myself others, it

21:42

has a terrible consequence.

21:45

And so what happens is,

21:47

and for me, this idea

21:49

of there are all kinds of

21:51

different different ways that people

21:53

act out. sexually. There are

21:55

all kinds of ways that

21:57

people try to excuse themselves in

21:59

this behavior. And

22:00

one of the excuses that people

22:03

use is I

22:03

really don't do this very much. Mhmm.

22:05

And we call those folks

22:07

I do a periodic.

22:10

But the consequences come back and are actually

22:12

the same every time. And

22:14

that is that I feel

22:16

when I choose to do these

22:19

things I feel unworthy of

22:21

god's love. I feel unworthy of the

22:23

love of others. I

22:25

then feel unworthy myself. I

22:27

don't like myself. So

22:28

whether I'm a periodic or whether I'm a

22:30

daily user, those feelings

22:32

are still there. And one thing

22:34

about sexual addiction, which is a real

22:37

challenge, is It doesn't just want

22:39

more. It wants different.

22:41

That has to be recognized. It

22:43

doesn't stay in the same way.

22:45

even a person that uses pornography

22:48

only. They will progress to

22:50

the deeper, darker, most violent

22:52

types of pornography that a person can even

22:55

imagine. And so what

22:57

happens to our spiritual nature

22:59

when we subject ourselves to that

23:01

kind of really violent

23:03

type of sexual experience.

23:05

And so the science basically is

23:07

that there is a change in

23:10

brain chemistry. I highly recommend

23:12

a book that, frankly, I study

23:14

off and I did this morning again, along with

23:16

scripture study. And I've

23:18

mentioned it before, dopamine

23:20

nation by Anna Limke. It is she's a

23:22

professor at Stanford University, and

23:24

she's a psychiatrist, highly,

23:26

highly qualified. She spoke at our

23:28

conference last fall. And

23:30

what she essentially describes is what happens

23:33

is our brain is constantly looking

23:35

for a to be

23:36

normal. to have a

23:38

state of balance. And if

23:40

we're constantly exposing our brains

23:42

to certain things of

23:45

behaviors, then we become we need

23:47

to find balance in that. So once

23:49

a person becomes a user, they

23:51

feel out of balance if they're not

23:53

using. The white book says the

23:55

only way to be free of it was to do

23:57

it. That's a very interesting thing.

23:59

Yeah. The only way to be free of

24:01

it is to do it. Well, why would

24:03

that be the case? It's because

24:05

I'm drawn back to it

24:07

against my will. And so every

24:09

time that I go through this process

24:11

of acting out, I then have the

24:14

commitment never again. Well,

24:16

that could last twenty minutes, that could last

24:18

twenty days, that could last three

24:20

years in my part. This is where you found balance.

24:22

Right? That's where I found balance. That's right.

24:24

So in an addiction, there

24:26

isn't this opportunity to be a

24:28

periodic. There really is not.

24:30

So an alcoholic can't be

24:32

a periodic. And really,

24:34

their alcohol being toxic to

24:36

the system, a person has to choose that they're

24:38

no longer going participate in the

24:41

behavior in order to be safe. Mhmm.

24:43

Well, the same thing has to happen with the

24:45

behaviors associated with this

24:47

behavioral addiction, and that is I

24:49

can't be a person who's periodically using

24:51

pornography to

24:52

satisfy some kind of an emotional need.

24:54

And that's

24:54

generally why it's used.

24:56

And so a

24:57

person could be bored, especially young people.

25:00

They'll go to the behavior because they're bored.

25:02

Mhmm. And that becomes very

25:04

very they become drawn into that

25:06

trying to find this balance, okay,

25:08

I'm no longer bored if I'm doing porn. And I've got

25:10

porn on my phone. All I have to do is pull it out and look at

25:12

it, and then I'm good to go. Well, the

25:15

solution is the white book says,

25:17

sooner or later becomes the problem.

25:20

Yeah. Yeah.

25:20

And one thing I wanna highlight here that comes up in

25:22

the dynamic of maybe a a bishop's

25:24

office where an individual who's out of

25:27

balance or seeking for balance in all the

25:29

wrong ways, comes to a bishop

25:31

who he doesn't have you know, he doesn't

25:33

struggle with this. And and so when he

25:35

hears their experience, it's like,

25:37

oh, well, you need to do just what

25:39

I do. And what I do is I just make

25:41

sure I read my scriptures in the morning, you

25:43

know, stay busy. Right? And I go to the

25:45

gym or whatever it is, and

25:47

that's why I think it's important that, you know, Chris, you talk

25:49

about the genetics that may be involved even

25:51

the life experience, whether someone was

25:53

sexually abused as a child, or I mean, all

25:55

these dynamics that come that maybe didn't come

25:57

up in the leader's life. And

25:59

again,

26:00

they're not excuses, but they're they're sort

26:02

of it's data. to

26:04

realize, okay, there may be additional resources

26:06

here to untangle the

26:08

the mess that's going on here in

26:11

order find a healthy way to achieve

26:13

balance rather than just do what I do

26:15

because I get I achieve balance just

26:17

just fine. So do what I do. Right? Well,

26:19

and you know, A light

26:21

went on years ago when I

26:23

heard this quote for the first time.

26:25

Said pornography is not my problem.

26:28

pornography is my solution. Yeah.

26:30

So what's my problem? Why do I self

26:32

medicate? What void am I trying to

26:34

fill? And that's where it

26:35

goes where Steven talked about the therapy

26:37

and I've done that. with

26:39

a therapist and trying to identify whatever

26:42

voids

26:42

are present or childhood

26:45

trauma or behaviorally I

26:47

mean, there's there's a whole host of things that could come into play when

26:49

we consider that, but that generally

26:51

is not the

26:52

problem. But we as a

26:54

society, we have

26:55

the war on drugs. As if

26:57

drugs are the problem, and if we get rid of drugs,

26:59

then the addiction issues will go away. Well,

27:01

we know that's not true. people

27:04

would just self medicate with something else.

27:06

And so mental health

27:08

and awareness is critical.

27:11

and getting a grip on this. Nice. Alright. So let

27:13

me sort of review what I'm learning at this

27:15

at this point. What we talked about is we're

27:17

we're

27:17

basically approaching the landscape of recovery

27:20

what does this actually look like in real life

27:22

and individual stories and whatnot?

27:24

And when you talked about just the surrender

27:26

factor, that radical honesty, And

27:28

then the the importance of reaching out for

27:30

help, you know, having connection and not

27:32

putting it behind you and pretending it's not there,

27:34

but putting it in front of you and saying, I need

27:36

help this. And then this

27:38

third part is the

27:40

the understanding of maybe the triggers or

27:42

the components that feed into

27:44

this behavior. It's not just a behavior. It's a

27:47

how do you put? It's not the problem.

27:49

It's the solution. And we need

27:52

out why it's the solution and then how to

27:54

insert the true solution which is

27:56

Jesus Christ. Right? So The true solution

27:58

is, in fact, Jesus Christ and the

27:59

power of the atonement to heal.

28:02

Yeah. However, it doesn't come to

28:04

us without effort. Doesn't come to

28:06

me without effort on my part.

28:08

That's when I say, I'm responsible for my own recovery.

28:10

What does that mean? What starts with honesty?

28:12

But I have a lot of work to

28:14

do. And so what

28:15

is the work that I need to do and

28:17

that I

28:18

need to with a committed heart be humble,

28:20

honest, and accountable. That's

28:22

one of the words some of the words that we use. That's

28:24

what recovery looks like. Humble,

28:26

honest, and accountable. But how do I

28:28

get there? Yet, yes, it

28:31

starts with this idea that I need

28:33

to be open and honest and confess

28:35

and strengthen my testimony. But where

28:37

do I find the answers to the question

28:40

about What is surrender? How do I surrender?

28:42

What does that mean? And I can

28:44

ask any person the

28:46

question about what does it mean to

28:49

surrender that hasn't worked

28:51

recovery. And most generally, the feeling

28:53

is that means to wave the white flag.

28:55

Mhmm. Oh, and I'm defeated. That

28:57

isn't what surrender means. what

28:59

surrender means is I

29:01

will take the action

29:03

of surrender, which means get out of myself

29:06

and

29:06

work with another person or persons

29:09

who I can't then

29:11

explain where I am

29:13

and

29:13

have them explain back

29:15

to me their experience. That's with the sponsor.

29:18

So my wife uses the term

29:20

on the phone, on my knees in

29:22

the box. In other words, I will call

29:24

somebody and talk to them about

29:26

how I Now how often does that

29:28

work? One hundred percent of the time? How

29:31

often are we people willing to do that?

29:33

Not very often. But on

29:35

the phone, On my knees, I'm going

29:37

to pray for strength to continue

29:39

this process, and now I'm gonna

29:41

write down how I really feel And

29:43

in my in the process of working my

29:45

recovery, I might be in a meeting and say, I

29:47

had this event occur in my life

29:49

that I called my sponsor, I prayed

29:51

for strength. I wrote down, I

29:53

looked in the white book, and I happened to read

29:55

this this this particular

29:57

sentence that said that

29:59

God is aware of you. And

30:01

It's just amazing to me that,

30:04

in fact, Patrick Karnes talks about the

30:06

idea that when we're in our own head, we're

30:08

behind enemy lines. when we're outside of

30:10

ourselves and we're willing to in a safe

30:12

environment talk about what was going on in our

30:14

life that's surrender, then

30:17

we can in fact be

30:19

empowered by that. We're telling our story in an

30:21

empowering way instead of keeping it inside

30:23

ourselves. And so the work of

30:25

recovery includes Qualified Thera There's

30:27

a whole discussion on what that

30:29

means. If we find a therapist who says it's

30:31

okay to do porn and masturbation and we

30:33

haven't found a therapist that's 2 to help

30:35

us stop or addictive behaviors. If we have a

30:37

therapist that doesn't understand the importance of

30:39

twelve step, and what that really means

30:41

to make the spiritual connection that's

30:43

required in recovery, then we

30:45

probably haven't found the right

30:47

therapist. So what about our level of education?

30:49

What do we really understand about

30:51

this from an educational standpoint? That's

30:53

why I keep bringing up some of these books and there's a

30:55

number of them out there that if we

30:57

will pay attention to them, they'll help us understand what

30:59

we're dealing with. And

31:01

so if we really

31:02

consider about these actions

31:04

of recovery, then we can

31:06

with those actions I'm

31:09

leaving one out and the boundaries and

31:11

bottom lines, I have to set

31:13

boundaries

31:13

to stay safe. The

31:16

alcoholics would say it this way. I've

31:17

been traveling the road of

31:20

recovery

31:20

for for

31:21

years, but

31:22

the ditch is still right

31:25

there.

31:25

What does that mean? What it means

31:27

to me is I'm still in mortality.

31:29

I'm walking this narrow pathway

31:31

of recovery, which doesn't give

31:33

me allowances on the left or the right. I

31:35

have to stay on the path, but I'm still in mortality. And

31:38

if I

31:39

choose to

31:41

act on the mortal desires

31:43

that I have to act out in any

31:46

way, then I'm gonna put myself

31:48

back into the ditch. Does it mean I and

31:50

therefore ever know, but I've gone back

31:52

into the ditch and that ditch

31:54

is a very unsafe place for me to be.

31:56

So just one more thing on this, Chris,

31:58

and I'll pass this back to

31:59

you. 2 lot of

32:01

people will find themselves going

32:03

back into the ditch. That is not the

32:05

end of the world. Where did I make

32:07

my big mistake? the

32:10

second time that I the first time I came

32:12

forward, the second time that I came

32:14

forward, I went back into the ditch and I wouldn't

32:16

talk about it. when

32:18

I go into the ditch, if I'm gonna go

32:20

into the ditch, I better get the only way

32:22

that I can get out of that ditch is

32:24

radical honesty. And as soon as I'm willing to be

32:26

2, again, I can be back on the pathway.

32:29

So doesn't mean that I I haven't

32:31

been scraped up because I went in the

32:33

ditch, but I'm not dead. So I

32:35

can't get out of the ditch if I'm

32:37

not completely honest.

32:39

If I go on the ditch, get honest.

32:41

Yes. I may be scraped up a bit, but I'm

32:43

not dead. I'll get back on the pathway,

32:45

whatever that means. I think

32:46

one of the greatest moments I've

32:49

had in recovery was the

32:51

realization that it has less to do with pornography

32:53

and more to do with other emotions

32:55

and feelings that we have.

32:57

And sometimes I'll get a text from a guy that

32:59

says, hey, do you have a minute? And they'll call

33:01

I just wanna surrender. I

33:04

felt resentment. Anything,

33:06

well, how's resentment connected with

33:08

addiction? Well, it is because it's a

33:10

negative emotion. Right? And

33:11

if we don't deal with that, if we

33:13

don't process that, then

33:15

we're

33:15

gonna be

33:16

very susceptible to those triggers.

33:19

And the brain says, I know how to get relief. You know

33:21

how to

33:21

get relief. Let's just do this. And

33:24

that's

33:24

the solution. Right? So

33:26

I think if we understand that it is

33:28

very very complex

33:30

and sometimes it has less

33:33

to do with pornography and

33:36

more to do with other needs they're not

33:38

being met or voids that we have in

33:40

our life. And that

33:40

is critical to understand and

33:43

recovering. And one highlight there

33:45

that it's so much easier to talk about it when you have

33:47

that context because it becomes

33:49

laborious as a priest leader to bring

33:51

the person in doc again, how

33:53

many relapses? What what are you doing?

33:55

You know? Are you too bored? Right? But to

33:57

go back and say, actually, this is maybe

33:59

an identity problem. Let's just talk

34:02

about you as a child of God? Or LDS you missing that? Or let's

34:04

talk about, you know, there's it's

34:06

so much easier to talk about and help somebody when

34:08

it's not just this behavioral issue that

34:11

we always gotta talk about and say, well, just stop doing it.

34:13

Yeah. Well, we've told ourselves a

34:14

hundred times I'm gonna stop doing this and

34:16

2 the bishop can reinforce that just stop

34:19

doing it. Well, I've tried that a hundred times. It

34:21

hasn't worked very well for me. Yeah. The

34:24

bishop can

34:25

really help a

34:27

person understand that recovery

34:29

is possible that

34:31

God is aware and will help

34:33

each one of us.

34:36

But again, The responsibility is mine. I go in and

34:38

I discover this, and that's my state

34:40

president told me go out and figure this thing out. What does

34:42

that mean?

34:44

I have responsibility to take the actions of recovery,

34:46

and that doesn't and even

34:48

though they're not easy, they're critical.

34:51

I had absolutely have and I have to continue 2

34:54

I've my sobriety day goes back

34:56

to two thousand five of

34:58

August twenty five, and I'm grateful for that sobriety. But I still

35:01

go to meetings every week. I still receive

35:03

calls and make calls daily,

35:07

I still continue to work the steps. I

35:09

still read recovery literature. And I read

35:11

the scriptures. When I got up this morning

35:13

and read the scriptures, the power of the

35:15

scripture I just happened to turn and open to Moron 2, and the promises

35:17

made in the very two

35:19

or three last scriptures

35:22

about how perfection

35:24

through the atonement of the Savior. And

35:26

so it is just a

35:29

blessing to me to now read the scriptures and say

35:31

I know that the power

35:33

that comes to me

35:35

through Jesus Christ is

35:37

available to

35:38

me when I access it in an honest

35:40

way, and it's there. And

35:42

so the advice that's given by

35:45

most priesthood leaders to become more familiar with the

35:47

scriptures, strengthen testimony, all of those things are

35:50

critical. I'm gonna say something here and this

35:51

could get me in a bit of

35:54

trouble. Gotcha. very

35:56

familiar with Trump. Alright. Go ahead. Yeah. Yeah.

35:59

There's often

36:00

a question

36:02

that a bishop is having

36:05

to deal with when he wants to help a person become

36:07

more spiritually blessed to

36:10

and connected

36:12

with god to strengthen them

36:14

in their efforts of recovery. I'm aware of

36:15

certain situations where

36:18

bishops will

36:18

where bishops well essentially

36:20

say you have a temple recommend to go use it and

36:22

strengthen your testimony -- Mhmm. -- when they

36:25

have come in to confess serious

36:28

sin. Now, now I look at that

36:30

and say, is that an

36:32

enabling comment? Yes,

36:34

we need to be spiritually.

36:36

fed

36:36

and going to the temple certainly we'll do that we do

36:38

that worthily. But does that

36:41

become an enabling suggestion,

36:44

meaning maybe my

36:46

behavior

36:46

isn't that bad. Maybe

36:48

the advice that I've had in the past

36:50

that the use

36:51

of pornography or masturbation isn't

36:54

so bad that I'm still

36:56

worthy to attend the temple.

36:58

My feeling is that we can

37:00

be worthy when we stop the behavior and we

37:03

get on the path of recovery

37:06

relatively fast. fast if we

37:08

progressed

37:08

on to other behaviors, especially

37:10

acting out with other people, then

37:12

that

37:12

period of time is longer

37:14

and the consequences are deeper.

37:17

But

37:17

the consequences of using

37:20

pornography shouldn't be diminished

37:22

by saying your temple worthy. if

37:24

I went into the bishop's office here to tell

37:26

you that I have a problem

37:28

with alcohol. I'm going out

37:30

on my own before

37:32

the for before

37:34

work, just out, and I'm I'm having some

37:36

problems with alcohol, then I'm able to wear

37:38

it off during the day before I get home.

37:40

My wife doesn't know it. and

37:43

I feel like I need to come and confess

37:45

this. Would the message be from the Bishop?

37:47

Use your temple recommend and go to the

37:49

temple more. I don't think so. I

37:51

think it would be, brother, let's get this

37:53

issue in hand and so that you're worthy to

37:55

go to the temple. These are some things that you

37:57

might consider

37:59

doing.

37:59

And so when

38:00

I went into the bishop as a young

38:02

young man and confessed this, and I wasn't really

38:05

given any consequences at

38:07

all because I wasn't. I

38:09

was given no consequences. My feeling

38:12

was, maybe this isn't as bad as I thought that

38:14

it was. I have

38:16

no consequences. So I go in and more than once, I

38:18

confess, I have no

38:20

consequences. Well, maybe this isn't

38:22

as bad as

38:24

I thought. And that kind

38:26

of message in the bishop's

38:28

office can be detrimental to

38:30

my

38:30

future opportunities to really get

38:32

a hold of this behavior stop the

38:34

behavior and be living in recovery. Hey, Matt, Chris.

38:36

Well, I

38:37

I'm just thinking while you

38:39

were sharing there that I

38:42

had a friend come to me and he struggled

38:44

with this too. And he

38:45

said, you know, how many times do I have

38:47

to confess to the bishop? I

38:49

mean, it's like this revolving door. Right?

38:52

Mhmm. He gets tired of it. The bishop's

38:54

like, oh, I know why you're here. Well,

38:55

you touched on something Kurt is so powerful

38:58

and that is Maybe it's not

39:00

the pornography. Maybe it's not

39:01

the masturbation. Maybe it is

39:04

something deeper and the

39:06

bishop is not qualified to be

39:08

your therapist. he will recommend and offer some maybe

39:10

options as to how to do that.

39:12

But there really is strength

39:14

and power and

39:16

identifying why do I have an inclination to

39:18

self medicate? What void am I

39:21

trying to feel when I

39:24

do that? And if you can identify that, then recovery

39:26

begins to happen. And it was just

39:28

amazing to

39:28

me how that light went on

39:31

And I said

39:31

it's a lot less to do with pornography and

39:33

more to do with my emotions, my feelings,

39:36

how I process those. And some of the

39:38

challenges I faced for the first year

39:40

of sobriety was I still

39:42

had problems. It didn't get easier.

39:44

I thought it was gonna be, you

39:46

know, heavenly that

39:47

everything would go great. but

39:49

it didn't. But I realized, well, I'd no longer have my

39:51

drug of choice to medicate with and

39:53

to numb 2, and that's why

39:55

I'm forced now to

39:58

feel what I'm feeling, to process

39:59

what I'm feeling. And then,

40:02

you know, make a

40:04

call or

40:04

go to your knees. And I think that the

40:07

third thing your wife said, if I'm not mistaken,

40:09

is to put it in the box where she just

40:11

writes on a piece of paper, and

40:13

she just puts it in there. She just surrenders it and

40:15

says, okay, I've given that away. And so I

40:17

think that's such a

40:19

critical piece, nailis. Yeah.

40:22

Those are all action steps. Surrender is action. It's

40:24

just not thinking, 0II gotta stop

40:26

this. It's like, I will take the

40:28

actions of getting outside myself. I

40:31

love that. So I'm intrigued by this. So we

40:33

bring up, you know, going back to the concept

40:35

of we find strength to overcome this

40:38

through Jesus Christ. And like you you sort

40:40

of alluded to 2 priest leaders

40:42

may think, well, then let's get them in

40:44

the temple so that they

40:46

can find strength there in the temple, you know, even though this

40:48

is serious. because I also there's

40:50

the other side I worry about where by removing

40:52

that temple recommend, we're sort of introducing

40:56

shame into the equation here. Like, I'm gonna shame you out

40:58

of this behavior. Like, you better get it straight or

41:00

else. You don't get this template recommended back.

41:04

Right? when in reality, it's more of like you're saying, I wanna we wanna

41:06

make sure that they're looking at this as as

41:08

as the problem it is. I

41:10

mean, that that they're not just

41:13

saying on, you know, I'm just having this

41:15

issue, whatever I'm gonna go back to the temple

41:17

and get that strength, where some leaders will say, no,

41:19

that's where you find the strength. So Maybe you

41:21

talked to me just about this concept of what does

41:23

it look like to get strength from Jesus

41:26

Christ in the midst of of

41:28

addiction and and struggles

41:30

like this? A

41:30

million dollar question. But what it means to

41:32

get strength from the savior is

41:34

to be congruent with oneself. and

41:38

we keep coming back to this concept of honesty. Yeah.

41:41

Without honesty, then we are not I'm

41:43

not congruent with myself. I need to speak

41:46

about 2 this from my

41:48

own experience. If I am not

41:50

honest and I'm inside

41:52

myself, I am not able

41:54

to receive the strength

41:56

and revelation not only am I

41:58

not worthy, but I've cut myself

41:59

off. And I think

42:01

the scriptures are basically saying that

42:03

the lord is always there simply

42:06

knock and he will open the door.

42:08

And sometimes our prayer is,

42:10

god take this away

42:12

from me. and so that I

42:14

don't have to deal with this anymore. That type of prayer is not going

42:16

to benefit us at all

42:18

because we have agency what's

42:21

the purpose in this entire life? It's to go

42:23

through the experiencing mortality

42:26

and being strengthened by it. So instead of

42:28

praying, god take this away

42:30

from me, It might be god

42:32

give me the courage and the determination to be honest

42:34

about where I am with others

42:38

who I need to be and so that I can feel worthy of thy

42:40

blessing. Also, please

42:42

bless me with insights to find the

42:44

resources that I need that I'm willing

42:47

to work on. direct my path.

42:49

And so in that type of

42:52

prayer, we're asking for the

42:54

savior to intervene in

42:56

our life. to not take

42:58

away our agency, which he's not going to

43:00

answer that prayer and take away our agency. Mhmm.

43:02

He may give us an interruption to

43:04

get get us to think about it. I've

43:06

experienced that space, which I just

43:08

talked about it many times,

43:10

but to experience the blessing

43:12

of the savior requires

43:14

of me a willingness to turn

43:16

towards him. Turning towards him means that I will be

43:18

known. I will be

43:20

seen. God will

43:22

know that I'm

43:24

willing to be seen for honestly who I am and what

43:26

I am doing. And then that transparency

43:30

gives me opportunity to

43:32

receive light and to give light.

43:34

We could go into a whole different discussion

43:36

about that. Yeah. But to

43:38

experience the power of

43:40

God's atonement, requires of

43:42

us to be willing to

43:44

abide by the commandments --

43:46

Yeah. -- to abide and act upon that

43:48

testimony that's within us hiding

43:50

and lying and being deceitful.

43:52

That's outside of the realm of being

43:54

able to really worthily

43:56

ask for. help to have

43:58

this relieve from me. I can honestly

44:00

say that the power

44:02

of the atonement is active in

44:04

my life when I choose

44:05

towards

44:06

god and honestly seek him

44:08

through being honest. And then in

44:10

that

44:10

honesty, the scriptures mean more to

44:13

me. When I read

44:13

the scriptures instead of feeling like I'm a

44:16

immigrant, I see the scriptures as

44:18

something to boost me in my hope

44:20

for not just recovery but

44:22

for forgiveness. the list goes on and on. So keep coming back to this

44:24

term. I've got to be radically honest

44:26

in all

44:26

things that I do. Yeah.

44:29

And, you know, going back to just this concept of, like,

44:32

strength and where the temple comes into that

44:34

or some of these things where

44:36

and, correct me if I'm wrong, but if

44:38

someone going through addiction who's struggling, who's who's finding that balance

44:40

in all the wrong ways, they first

44:42

need to be justified, you know, through

44:45

the Savior of Jesus Christ to

44:48

find balance, through that justification. And that's often in these,

44:50

you know, being radically honest and and

44:52

you're starting to find that balance. And

44:54

then, you know, maybe the

44:56

sacrament starts take a a role on that. And then we send

44:58

people to the temple unless they're

45:00

in a posture of being balanced so

45:02

that they

45:04

because the temple's there not to justify us, but to

45:06

sanctify us. And we have to go

45:08

through that justified process, you

45:11

know, maybe that's time without the sacrament and then the

45:13

sacrament and then the temple. Right? Rather than saying, well, we're

45:16

gonna justify these people by sending them to

45:18

the temple. Anyways, this

45:20

is like But five,

45:22

you know, precisely. We don't Let

45:24

me just add to this equation. What

45:27

happens to a

45:30

spouse? how

45:30

they feel about the experiences they

45:32

have in betrayal -- Yeah. --

45:35

when the

45:35

behavior of their husband

45:38

is minimized. So And

45:40

and sending

45:40

them to the temple can be conservative

45:42

that way. So let's just play

45:44

out a little scenario. The spouse

45:47

my wife was gives us as an example

45:49

in the first person even though this did

45:51

not happen. But let's

45:52

say that a person, myself

45:56

or is discovered in my addiction by

45:58

my wife. Maybe I'm

45:59

discovered doing porn in the middle of the

46:02

night where one of my kids

46:04

discovers me. and

46:05

my wife is just absolutely

46:08

taken back and she's concerned

46:10

about my spiritual welfare,

46:12

and she

46:12

talks to me about it set up. I can't

46:14

deal with this. This is not something that is going to happen

46:16

in our home. You need to deal with this in a

46:18

healthy way. I think you need to go talk to

46:21

the bishop. okay, I agree to go talk to the bishop. I go to

46:23

the bishop. The bishop then minimizes.

46:26

Mhmm. And it says something like, well, brother,

46:28

thank you and coming for talking to me

46:30

about this. The repentance

46:32

process starts with confession. Now

46:34

just don't do that anymore and read the

46:36

scriptures. And

46:36

go about

46:37

your business, don't take the sacrament

46:40

for a couple of weeks, come back in and talk to me

46:42

about it, and then we'll we'll

46:44

see where we are from there. Goes home and

46:46

tells his wife that that's what the bishop said

46:48

to him. What's her response now? Her response is

46:50

going to be, I am not

46:52

given, I am now no

46:54

longer validated in the feelings that I have

46:56

a betrayal.

46:58

My

46:58

husband has

46:58

betrayed me. He's broken the covenants

47:01

and the commitments that he's made to

47:03

me of sexual purity. and

47:05

now I've discovered that it's not that big of

47:07

a deal. Well,

47:08

it is

47:09

a big deal to her and

47:11

now she has to go through this process

47:13

of trying to decide what's right

47:15

and wrong relationship my in relationship to sexual purity.

47:18

So her experience has to be

47:20

brought into

47:22

this. And if there's a minimization

47:24

that goes on and boosted the offices of this issue,

47:26

I can assure you because I've only

47:30

I've been involved with this hundreds and hundreds of times.

47:32

Secondary trauma occurs and women

47:34

begin to doubt their testimony. Yeah.

47:37

And this, again, another reason to involve her

47:39

in this process because then you can sort

47:41

of get her perspective is, like, as any point

47:43

along this path, does it has it appeared

47:45

like I've been minimizing this? because that's good feedback for me. Right? because sometimes we

47:47

may not realize what the best intentions that

47:49

we're minimizing it.

47:52

from her point of view. And then she feels like she's not heard or

47:54

then is, you know, has that secondary trial mode.

47:56

So involving her and making sure that

47:59

you're not missing anything as that helpful priest

48:01

to leader. Yeah. Sometimes it goes

48:03

to extremes, and I've just recently

48:06

become of a very serious

48:08

situation where a person was continually lying. He was

48:10

not being honest about it. He

48:12

was

48:12

literally his wife went

48:14

to the extent of hiring

48:17

private investigators

48:18

to discover that he was doing

48:20

prostitutes in

48:20

the 2 parlors. She

48:23

went

48:23

to their 2 preschoolers with

48:26

that information. Her husband

48:28

denied it. No consequences.

48:30

Until

48:30

finally, until

48:31

finally, he was

48:33

caught.

48:34

And this idea that he was lying and he was believed

48:36

in these lives and she was dismissed.

48:38

It just about killed her.

48:41

Yeah. and you just

48:43

cannot have that kind of a situation. She needs to be believed 2

48:45

I'm experiencing something

48:46

that is not just

48:50

distressing but it's causing me trauma and my it's hurting my testimony

48:52

about really what is right and what

48:54

is wrong in this mortal life

48:56

when it comes to sexual purity.

48:59

Yeah. And that can go on for months and months and months. I mean, you

49:01

guys I mean, go on. Yeah. Yeah.

49:04

Yeah. Chris, any thoughts that we

49:06

missed her. Well, as we've been talking,

49:08

I just have these thoughts and and feelings, you know, in the new testament, the Saver

49:10

says, if you love me, keep my commandments.

49:12

And maybe for the first time,

49:14

I

49:16

changed that a little bit my mind. If you love me, be honest.

49:19

Because keeping the commandments requires

49:21

honesty. Right? Yeah. We do have

49:23

to report that. 2 so

49:26

that just brings for me. That just brings the

49:28

whole new insight. If you love me,

49:30

just be honest. And that's

49:32

a really hard thing to 2.

49:35

for a lot of us because of the minimization,

49:37

you know. So that was

49:39

just a libel for

49:41

me. That's right. what

49:42

else do we miss it before we wrap

49:44

up? I mean, the concept of recovery is it's

49:47

multifaceted. There's so many components

49:49

to it, and each story is their

49:52

own. But I think these are broader

49:54

topics to really understand,

49:56

especially as as leaders in the church

49:58

to help individuals, but anything else we're missing? I think we're missing

50:00

some

50:00

about step twelve. In third

50:02

Nephi,

50:03

when the savior is giving instruction,

50:05

he talks about not

50:08

keeping our candle under a bushel. Our

50:10

lighted candle

50:11

needs to be set on a hill

50:13

and so people can see

50:15

it. And so

50:16

the alcoholics discovered

50:18

that the best way to stay

50:20

sober was to find another

50:22

person to help the problem that

50:25

they had. So there

50:26

needs to be a level

50:28

of honesty within our

50:31

community, within the church.

50:33

that allows there to be

50:35

an army of tens of

50:37

thousands of hundreds of thousands

50:39

of millions and millions of people.

50:41

who will commit to a level of honesty to

50:43

give them an opportunity to

50:46

live and recover themselves then

50:49

help brother. because

50:50

the best person to help another

50:52

who's

50:52

dealing with what I have dealt

50:54

with is another person that

50:56

has experienced what I'm experiencing. So

50:59

how Bill W, who was essentially the

51:02

person that started alcoholics anonymous,

51:04

knew that he could not stay sober

51:06

if he wasn't working

51:08

with otheralcoholics that is true. I have felt that in my own

51:10

life. I will not be

51:12

sober. If I wasn't committed to

51:14

working with other

51:16

people, because

51:17

because that work with

51:18

other people gives me

51:20

strength, gives me hope,

51:22

gives me power in that

51:25

Now in sharing these experiences that I've had

51:27

with others worthily and doing it in

51:29

an honest way, I'm strengthened and I

51:32

need that strength. So Step twelve,

51:34

having had a spiritual awakening.

51:36

I'll just read

51:36

it to you. Having had a

51:37

spiritual awakening is a result of

51:40

these steps. We tried to

51:42

carry this message to others and

51:44

to practice these principles in all

51:46

aspects of our lives. There

51:48

is the opportunity. step twelve,

51:50

having had a spiritual awakening. Let's

51:52

go out and help other people. We

51:54

need an army of millions.

51:56

that are willing to be honest. So that army

51:58

will then be able to thwart the desires of

52:00

the adversary to take away our

52:04

agency. through

52:05

this incredibly powerful addiction. Yeah. No more putting it behind us.

52:07

Right? We gotta lead out and go

52:09

lead. 2? Yeah. Well,

52:12

in I've

52:12

said this before, but in twenty thirteen, the Lord, a voice came

52:15

into my mind says,

52:16

tell your story. If you tell

52:18

your story, I will cover you just

52:19

tell your story.

52:22

in that encapsulated in step twelve. And

52:24

I get many many calls from men

52:26

who are apologetic. I'm so sorry to take

52:28

your time and say, 2, don't apologize. Rameses,

52:32

step twelve, if I help you, then I'm

52:34

helped. And so you just allowed

52:36

me to do recovery today,

52:38

so thank you for calling.

52:40

And so I just love what Stephen said if we

52:42

had millions of priesthood brethren who

52:46

were honest

52:46

honest inclined

52:48

to put on this air perfection that we

52:50

don't have any problems, but the fact is

52:52

everybody does. And being

52:54

able

52:54

to talk about that is so

52:56

relieving when when Elder Holland, you know, years ago, talked about

52:59

mental health and his own struggles.

53:01

I just felt this collective

53:02

sigh of relief on the

53:06

so many people. We said it's

53:07

okay to be 2. Jesus

53:10

is a

53:10

carpenter, is well acquainted with knowing

53:13

how to mend broken things. So

53:15

I just love that. Yeah.

53:17

Well, we've we've gone

53:19

in different directions and paint in the

53:21

picture well as far as recovery and

53:23

whatnot. Anything else we're missing? I

53:25

mean, maybe a whole another four episode

53:28

series, but other than

53:30

but I've just so much appreciate

53:34

recognizing the concept that recovery is is possible.

53:36

And when individuals hear other

53:38

people's stories, right, the the radical

53:40

Anna stories they

53:42

begin to come out of their shell. And you I know both of you've seen I've

53:44

seen of individuals sharing their story and

53:47

then other individuals approaching

53:50

them. that realizing I'm not alone. Like his story is

53:52

like my story and maybe

53:53

there is hope for me. That happens all

53:55

the time. All the time. how

53:57

can you tell an addict does in in recovery?

53:59

They'll talk about his

54:00

story. Yeah. How can you tell if

54:03

an addict does not in recovery?

54:05

You want to speak to him. Yeah. And

54:08

so those who are willing to talk about

54:10

it are people who

54:12

most generally are

54:12

in recovery. Those people need to be given

54:13

voice and an opportunity to speak 2

54:16

some point, and I believe that this will

54:18

happen where we will

54:20

find ourselves

54:22

in preceded meetings where we are

54:24

able to support one another in

54:26

genuinely honest ways because we

54:28

are choosing to be radically honest.

54:31

Don't think we're there yet, but I believe that that

54:33

time can come. I look forward to

54:36

that 2, and that radical

54:38

honesty isn't a time for

54:40

us to or that it's not

54:42

a confession situation. It's a hope for god's

54:44

atonement to be in play

54:46

in my life and that's what I speak

54:50

of. that's

54:50

what I speak of. And so we

54:52

oftentimes

54:52

wanna

54:53

speak about that in the

54:55

we or the

54:58

you. I believe we need to speak about it in the me,

55:00

in the eye, not the you,

55:02

in the we. So when I

55:04

so

55:05

speak of my experience, it is my experience. That's

55:07

what I need to share as my experience strengthen

55:09

hold from my own perspective. The

55:11

people that

55:12

aren't ready to hear it, that's

55:14

fine. people that 2 be judgmental, that is their that's right

55:16

to be so. But there are many who

55:18

need to hear

55:18

the story and so that they can

55:21

find

55:21

hope in that and

55:23

that's why we need to share. Others will find

55:25

hope in our story. There's a man

55:27

I love in recovery who was

55:29

asked recently by his elders' group president

55:31

teach the 2. to the quorum

55:34

and he said, can I tell my

55:36

story? And so he took forty

55:38

minutes. You know, he didn't go into sort of

55:40

details or anything like that, but he told story

55:42

of recovery. and now he has

55:44

eighteen months of sobriety. And

55:47

he said afterwards dozens

55:49

of men keep somewhat tears in their eyes, that

55:51

thank you, because it's hard to admit

55:54

that we have that problem. But

55:56

when someone

55:58

else shares their story, which is step twelve. It

55:59

gives me

56:01

hope, man, so if he can

56:03

do

56:03

it so can I? And

56:05

so that's why we're so desirous,

56:07

the teller story. Thank you very much,

56:09

Kirk, for allowing us to do that.

56:11

Yeah. Steven, I know you have all sorts of resources

56:13

and conferences and and what now

56:16

if people want to,

56:18

both the individuals who are reaching

56:20

for recovery and leaders, where would you send them to

56:22

to learn more about you and good working your life

56:24

too. We operate

56:25

A501 C3

56:27

nonprofit foundation started in two

56:29

thousand 2 nine. It's called

56:31

SA lifeline foundation. The

56:33

purpose that is to provide education

56:36

and information and hope for recovery.

56:38

So we in doing that, we

56:40

do operate

56:42

a website s a

56:44

lifeline dot org, where

56:46

resources and help for recovery are

56:48

found, and we in that

56:50

website also provide educational materials. Some of it is

56:52

directly focused on members of the church.

56:54

Some of it is not. My wife

56:56

has written a

56:58

very power powerful book to women who

57:00

experience trauma. It's called what can I do about me. Can be purchased at

57:02

Deseret book. Can be purchased

57:04

online, Amazon, other places. also

57:08

the other two publications that we that

57:10

we have, that one of them is

57:11

called, he restore with my soul. We published

57:14

that for Donald Del Hilton

57:16

MD. He's

57:18

an neurosurgeon who wrote the book that is

57:20

helping us understand not just the science

57:22

of addiction but also recovery.

57:25

and then we published a book called Understanding pornography

57:27

addiction and betrayal trauma. That one

57:29

is written specifically for parents and church

57:31

leaders. That one can be found on our website or

57:33

a Desirae book. And

57:36

then, seven, eight years ago,

57:38

we started a program of our own twelve

57:40

steps called SAL.

57:42

SAL12step dot org is where you

57:44

find out information about our

57:46

meetings. We operate about

57:48

sixty meetings a week right

57:50

now. Some of them

57:52

in some of them online. We have people from all over the

57:54

world attend meetings online

57:56

as well as a number of in

57:58

person meetings. We

57:59

don't have a lot of them out of state,

58:02

but we have meetings in Alaska, in the in person, a meetings in Idaho,

58:04

in person, meetings in Utah,

58:06

in person.

58:08

But the great thing is is that wonderful

58:10

meetings are held online. I intend both

58:12

in person and online meetings And

58:15

so I'm able to, no matter where I am,

58:18

be spiritually fed by attending

58:20

meetings. In those meetings,

58:22

we help people to people are

58:24

they'll come and they'll find a understand what the work

58:26

of

58:26

recovery takes. The materials of the

58:29

twelve steps are made available. And

58:32

also, one of the great things we offer is a curriculum

58:34

for working the twelve steps. And

58:36

that curriculum is about two hundred and

58:38

seventy sessions for the men takes

58:41

about twenty to thirty minutes a day per

58:43

day session. It helps us work through the

58:46

twelve steps. We're using all the recovery

58:48

materials. It's a system that we read, we

58:50

write, we call, and so that

58:52

it gives us accountability, but it also

58:54

gives us a chance to

58:56

have this regimented plan and so especially people that I

58:58

sponsor, I asked them to use the I

59:00

asked them to use their curriculum because I

59:02

know exactly what

59:04

they're reading. And the questions

59:06

always come up about

59:08

this about in fact,

59:10

multiple questions come up

59:12

initially about understanding what

59:14

surrender is. Anyway, these resources

59:16

are available. We have had many, many,

59:18

many thousands of people participate in

59:21

some cool things. Here's something's cool. We have made he restore

59:23

with my soul by the permission of the

59:26

author available to fourteen

59:28

missions in Western Europe as I free

59:32

download. So missionaries

59:32

can be given the access code.

59:35

They can download that on a device, have

59:37

access to that. And we've also just

59:39

recently made that available to

59:42

all Chap App ones throughout the world and no charge. It's

59:44

a powerful book and it really helps people understand

59:46

the challenges associated with addiction

59:49

and recovery. So

59:50

so the

59:51

foundation is very active

59:54

and lots and lots and lots of people

59:56

are participating to help make it

59:58

work. There's thousands and thousands of hours given as

59:59

volunteers to help us work move

1:00:02

forward. We also have a conference

1:00:04

annually

1:00:04

last

1:00:06

year we had or it was in September this year we had Anna Lemke, who

1:00:09

I spoke of who wrote

1:00:11

dopamine nation and also

1:00:13

doctor Kevin Skinner. who

1:00:16

is a very qualified therapist and he

1:00:18

spoke to us about atrial

1:00:19

trauma. So we're very active, go

1:00:21

to our websites and

1:00:23

look at our our materials. And if we can be helpful in any

1:00:25

way -- Yeah. -- that's why we're there. Well, we we

1:00:27

can't blame you for not providing resources.

1:00:29

No. No. No. We we got a we got

1:00:31

a few resources. Good.

1:00:34

Good. And then if if I could just

1:00:36

mention yeah. Because

1:00:38

of the bra or

1:00:39

the the podcast

1:00:42

last February, I've had a lot of,

1:00:44

as I indicated, a lot of people reach out to 2,

1:00:46

and one of which is a man you know from

1:00:48

Texas who reached out to 2. And

1:00:50

said, Chris, I think you didn't have an

1:00:52

online presence. and

1:00:53

he's helped me to do that without charging me a

1:00:55

2. And he said because this is

1:00:57

such an insidious problem.

1:01:00

and you want a few people that's willing to talk about it. I'm gonna everything I

1:01:02

can to help you have that presence online.

1:01:04

So we're able to secure the

1:01:06

domain name I am finally free

1:01:09

dot com, just all one word or lowercase. I

1:01:12

am finally free dot com.

1:01:14

And if you go to that

1:01:16

webpage, then there's a Facebook link at

1:01:18

the top. You can just click on that.

1:01:20

It'll take

1:01:20

you right to our Facebook group

1:01:22

where this conversation, I

1:01:24

would like it to continue. I

1:01:27

think The more

1:01:27

and more and more we get people talking about

1:01:29

it, the more healing that that

1:01:31

can occur in

1:01:32

people's lives and so that conversation will

1:01:34

happen on that side as well. So

1:01:36

and you could you could go there too by just I am

1:01:38

finally free. Just type that in when

1:01:41

you search for Facebook group. And we'll put all those

1:01:43

links in the show notes and people

1:01:45

will be able find them. So finishes off. What

1:01:48

what final message if you're in a room full

1:01:50

of of leaders, stake

1:01:52

presence, bishops? let's say, presence

1:01:54

wherever it be. What what final message, Julie

1:01:56

Pharmacy then? My

1:01:57

message is a message based upon

1:01:59

my experience

1:01:59

with incredible

1:02:02

priesthood leaders. who

1:02:02

I know were inspired, for which I will

1:02:04

be eternally grateful.

1:02:06

Each bishop that I have had

1:02:08

who has helped me through this issue

1:02:11

I know has perfectly considered my

1:02:13

needs. Each stake president who's worked with

1:02:15

me on this issue, I know has

1:02:17

perfectly considered my needs. So

1:02:20

with that, I know that God's hand is in

1:02:22

my life because I have experienced it

1:02:24

in marvelous ways. Well, I

1:02:26

guess my hope

1:02:28

would be that we all desire to

1:02:29

learn more about this. Take it

1:02:32

upon ourselves to have

1:02:33

a greater understanding of what we're dealing with

1:02:35

because this issue is

1:02:37

probably the greatest plague of this generation

1:02:40

that the world has ever known.

1:02:42

And it's totally

1:02:42

upon us, and it's It

1:02:45

is so powerful and that

1:02:47

we cannot hide out and

1:02:49

turn away from it and feel like it will

1:02:51

go away. It will not. So maybe

1:02:53

a word of encouragement is

1:02:56

gain

1:02:56

a greater understanding about what

1:02:58

this all means, not

1:03:00

just the challenges associated with

1:03:02

the use of pornography. But the challenge is associated with the damage

1:03:04

that it does to the spirit and to the

1:03:07

to a marriage, to

1:03:10

a spouse. And

1:03:11

so once we begin to learn

1:03:13

and understand that, I think that we will

1:03:15

become a greater understanding and

1:03:18

appreciation for what it takes to really

1:03:20

come to Jesus, what it

1:03:22

really takes to live

1:03:23

in recovery

1:03:24

2 what that looks like. The

1:03:27

more priest leaders understand that, the greater

1:03:30

help that they can give, and

1:03:32

really instilling hope in people's

1:03:34

lives who have lost hope in

1:03:36

many ways.

1:03:44

That

1:03:44

concludes this episode of the Leading Saints podcast. Hey,

1:03:46

listen. Would you do me a favor? You

1:03:48

know, everybody's got that friend who listens

1:03:50

to a ton of podcasts.

1:03:52

and maybe they aren't aware of Leading Saints, so would you mind taking

1:03:55

the link of this episode or another episode

1:03:57

of Leading Saints and just

1:04:00

text sting it to that friend. You know who you I'm talking about. The friend

1:04:02

who always listens to podcasts and is

1:04:04

always telling you about different podcasts, well, it's

1:04:06

your turn to tell that friend about

1:04:08

leading Saints.

1:04:10

So share it. We'd also love to hear from you if you have any

1:04:12

perspective or thought on this episode. You

1:04:14

can go to leadingsaints dot org and actually

1:04:17

leave a comment on the episode page or reach out

1:04:19

to us at leading saint 2 org slash

1:04:22

contact. And remember, go to leading

1:04:24

saint dot org

1:04:26

slash fourteen to access our

1:04:28

full liberating Saints

1:04:30

virtual library.