0:06

Welcome to another

0:06

episode of the leave no doubt

0:08

podcast. My name is Damon

0:08

Nisbett, and I'm glad to have

0:12

Sam Slocum with me today.

0:12

There's some goalkeeper 16 years

0:17

professional in the game now at

0:17

Notts County. Really glad to

0:22

have him just before we get

0:22

started, I just want to thank

0:25

our sponsors, connection

0:25

technologies, specialists in

0:29

telecom and IT services. So I

0:29

really encourage you to go check

0:33

them out. Sam, welcome to the

0:33

podcast.

0:37

Nice, we're done. It's good to

0:37

have a chat and see what goes

0:41

from here. Ya know, I'm really, really

0:43

looking forward to having a

0:45

conversation, you know, we don't

0:45

get too many too many

0:48

goalkeepers on and obviously,

0:48

you've got a real unique

0:51

experience, you know, some great

0:51

experiences, clubs for your

0:55

time. And now we're looking

0:55

forward to taking some, some

0:59

take some advice from you, mate,

0:59

just to just to kick me off or

1:04

kick us off of the podcast

1:04

today. You know, those early

1:08

days you growing up playing

1:08

football? I've got here you

1:13

started out bottles for town.

1:13

But you know, what was it that

1:17

you can look back at that, you

1:17

know, made you want to become a

1:21

football player, and I guess

1:21

maybe wants to become a

1:23

goalkeeper. Honestly, Donna probably didn't

1:27

want to be a goalkeeper. Kind of

1:31

growing up in the youngest in

1:31

the family, older brother a

1:36

couple of years older than me.

1:36

So whenever you're out playing

1:40

football and stuff like that

1:40

most of my most of the friends

1:43

that you're down at the park

1:43

with were older, so you just end

1:45

up getting placed in goal kind

1:45

of growing up as a kid ad

1:51

playing goal for a certain

1:51

period. And you end up in

1:54

academies, which I did. And then

1:54

I left Lincoln Academy at 14,

2:00

and what kind of went back to my

2:00

Sunday League team, and they

2:05

can't, they brought another

2:05

goalkeeper in. So I just ended

2:07

up playing outfield for a couple

2:07

of years. And I played in goal

2:11

like for years above and started

2:11

playing for Bottesford in, I

2:17

don't even know what step it

2:17

would be classed as now. But it

2:19

was like a central Midlands or

2:19

something like that, that 16. So

2:23

I was planning goal on a

2:23

Saturday playing outfield with

2:26

my mates on a Sunday. And just

2:26

kind of started that way. If I'm

2:33

being truly honest, I probably

2:33

want it to be a footballer, but

2:38

I was quite aware that it

2:38

probably wasn't going to happen.

2:43

There were opportunities

2:43

younger, to kind of go back into

2:47

academies. But physically, I

2:47

probably wasn't. I wasn't big

2:54

enough to think I'll get an

2:54

opportunity. And the numbers

3:01

game, I mean, what you probably

3:01

only get five or six from the

3:05

under 16 Getting scholars and

3:05

then out of your scholar, you

3:07

maybe get one person getting a

3:07

pro contract. And then to

3:11

actually maintain that is very,

3:11

very small numbers. I just

3:15

didn't think that would happen

3:15

for me at the time. So I was

3:17

very focused on kind of

3:17

education and whatever. And just

3:22

kind of got lucky I had a good

3:22

growth spurt between 17 and 18.

3:29

And it put me into a physical

3:29

position where I would have a

3:34

chance. And then yeah, just got

3:34

fortunate at 19 that Sconnie

3:39

took a punt on me to cover a

3:39

slot that they needed and

3:42

managed to hang around in the

3:42

game long enough to get a few

3:45

appearances and a few stars

3:45

along the way.

3:49

And I'm brilliant, and thanks

3:49

for the honesty I guess it is a

3:53

story that lots of people can

3:53

relate to isn't it? You know,

3:55

you're you're down in the park

3:55

and you find yourself you find

3:59

yourself in go and then yeah,

3:59

obviously get a get good at it

4:03

and go through academies. And

4:03

you know, and it's probably

4:07

something like you talk about that if you have a new growth spurt. 1718 like these days with

4:09

which we refer to as a late

4:14

mature, you know, one of those

4:14

that you know, probably moments

4:18

when you were in academies

4:18

you're talking about physically

4:20

wasn't wasn't ready for it.

4:20

Probably needed have an academy

4:24

or, you know, a system that was

4:24

going to probably allow you to

4:29

take a bit longer in terms of

4:29

your development, which

4:31

obviously doesn't work out in

4:31

every place and you found a

4:35

different route, I guess into

4:35

getting into the game.

4:39

Yeah, and I'm like now on the

4:39

other side of it going through

4:44

my coaching badges and stuff

4:44

like that. And I think if I was

4:48

growing up now as a 14 year old

4:48

in this day and age, I do

4:53

believe that be more chance and

4:53

opportunity that a club would

4:57

keep me on for longer because

4:57

there's much more knowledge in

5:00

terms of them late matures and

5:00

kind of taking time with players

5:07

to allow them to develop

5:07

physically because I felt

5:10

technically at that age, I was

5:10

good, but I had to be good at

5:14

that age because of my size

5:14

downlight clubs wouldn't take

5:18

you if you as a small goalkeeper

5:18

if technically you wasn't

5:21

brilliant. So, in a way, it

5:21

probably helped my development

5:26

as a goalkeeper, because I knew

5:26

that I had to be brilliant at

5:31

the technical aspects, because

5:31

the physical aspects wasn't

5:34

there yet. And then it was a

5:34

case of hoping they came. I

5:40

mean, for some people they

5:40

don't, but clubs now are very

5:44

comfortable in giving those kind

5:44

of young players the opportunity

5:49

to the opposite the time to

5:49

allow them to mature physically.

5:58

Yeah, and I guess the message

5:58

there as well, if you're a young

6:03

goalkeeper, and you know, you

6:03

are a bit of a later developers

6:07

just having a bit of reassurance

6:07

or confidence in that, you know,

6:11

hopefully the club's taken upon

6:11

you or not, say, taken upon or

6:15

you know, has a program that can

6:15

support you in terms of your

6:18

late development. But if you are

6:18

late development, it doesn't

6:20

mean that your your career is

6:20

done at 14 where everyone else

6:23

is shut up, and you're miles

6:23

behind. It just might be in that

6:26

later on just when your physical

6:26

development comes. And you have

6:30

to ensure that you're maximizing

6:30

your other attributes in that

6:33

moment of time. And I think

6:33

often it's those players as

6:36

well, the later developers, you

6:36

know, physically, they end up

6:39

becoming better players, because

6:39

they've got such a longer period

6:42

of growth and development. But

6:42

at the same time, they've had to

6:46

learn how to use their body

6:46

because of their size and had to

6:49

develop those technical skills.

6:49

So, you know, there's those

6:51

players, you probably end up

6:51

doing really well. It's just a

6:54

bit cloudy at that period of

6:54

development, I guess.

7:00

Yeah. And it must be difficult,

7:00

it must be difficult for the

7:04

young kids at that, at that

7:04

point, to have that self belief

7:08

that you are good enough, and it

7:08

will come further down the line.

7:13

So providing an opposite, like

7:13

an environment for those players

7:18

to flourish is really key

7:18

because like you just said

7:21

there, a lot of them are the

7:21

ones that end up coming into the

7:24

game and they have that grit and

7:24

resilience that will actually

7:28

allow them to flourish further

7:28

in their career.

7:32

Yeah, you're absolutely right.

7:32

Yeah, it's those mental skills

7:35

they develop, you know, as

7:35

probably more these podcasts we

7:39

do as well. You know, we talk

7:39

about people with musical and

7:43

development and technical skills

7:43

as well as those mental skills

7:46

that keep coming back to you

7:46

know, how important they are.

7:51

It's made Sue's those early

7:51

days. At Scunthorpe, you know, I

7:55

see you know, potentially, like

7:55

a really like interesting

7:58

period, you know, as a team that

7:58

was, you know, bouncing around

8:01

the lakes, I mean, it had two

8:01

emotions to relegations and your

8:05

time there and like what was it

8:05

as anything stand out for you

8:10

and about that time, that time

8:10

period

8:16

Do you know what it's Scunthorpe

8:16

at the time was probably a lower

8:22

Ligue one club, but very much

8:22

fighting, like punching above

8:26

its way. They recruited very

8:26

well. And they gave

8:31

opportunities to young players,

8:31

mainly because they probably had

8:35

to because of budget wise. But

8:35

they provided a platform to

8:41

allow these young players to

8:41

kind of express themselves but

8:44

within a bit of structure. And

8:44

that really worked, worked well.

8:49

Nigel Atkins when I first went

8:49

in was like we're talking about

8:54

psychology of players. He was

8:54

fantastic with that he made you

8:58

feel a million dollars when you

8:58

walked out on the pitch and, and

9:02

that really worked well. I would

9:02

say the biggest turning point

9:09

for me was kind of seeing that

9:09

golden generation that managed

9:15

to get them to the championship,

9:15

move on to better clubs, and we

9:19

recruited younger players that

9:19

found it tough in the

9:22

championship. And if we're being

9:22

honest, probably most of them

9:27

wasn't quite ready for that

9:27

level yet and found it difficult

9:31

and being able to spin that

9:31

morale from being beaten every

9:38

week and getting relegated took

9:38

a long time. We managed to stay

9:46

up the second season after being

9:46

relegated out the championship.

9:51

But only just and then we got

9:51

relegated again the following

9:54

year. And it was like almost the

9:54

players that were still around

9:58

for that promotion after that We

9:58

took maybe two years to get over

10:02

that. And that was really

10:02

interesting because the players

10:06

that we did have were too good

10:06

probably to get relegated out

10:09

Ligue one but it happened and it

10:09

was off the back of the

10:12

psychological side of it, it

10:12

was, it was interesting, but

10:17

maybe really helped me going

10:17

forward. Because then off the

10:20

back of that, near enough, every

10:20

club that I've been involved

10:24

with, has been quite successful

10:24

at the time. And I can do what I

10:31

took from them, Scunthorpe days

10:31

is kinda like, if you don't give

10:36

up, and you always give yourself

10:36

an opportunity throughout the

10:39

world, we're talking games on

10:39

the season, we're working every

10:43

single day of the week, and it's

10:43

not, you can't just come in and

10:47

hide, you have to be on it every

10:47

day, you're gonna get successful

10:52

periods for club. And per

10:52

personally, the worst spells

10:58

within that where I was within

10:58

dressing rooms and kind of teams

11:03

where maybe we wasn't quite up

11:03

them levels day in, day out. And

11:08

that probably showed on the

11:08

performances that happened. But

11:14

for the whole the ones that the

11:14

seasons and the teams that have

11:18

performed well off the back of

11:18

that, yeah, it was definitely

11:21

off that foundation of my early

11:21

years at Scunthorpe, where the

11:26

coaches at the time were like,

11:26

Look, you have to perform day in

11:29

day out. And if you can do that

11:29

you try your hardest, every

11:32

single day. But you're not going

11:32

to play to your very best

11:37

ability every day. That's just a

11:37

fact of competitive sport. But

11:42

as long as you give your 100%

11:42

effort and you are willing to

11:46

learn and willing to take risks

11:46

to fail and then know why you

11:52

fail, you're gonna have success

11:52

somewhere down the line for them

11:58

kind of principles. Yeah, no, I think that's a

12:01

really powerful message. And you

12:05

know, about being consistent,

12:05

you know, turning up every day,

12:09

you know, working hard every

12:09

day, you know, those real

12:11

foundations, those values those

12:11

rocks was Was there something

12:17

about Scunthorpe? You know, and

12:17

the culture of the club that

12:20

really drove and instilled those

12:20

values? You know, a club called

12:24

for iron, you know, is that that

12:24

kind of, you know, working class

12:28

kind of club background was it

12:28

was was a club culture like a

12:34

pilot. When I first went in, yeah, I

12:36

would say that I thought no,

12:39

like you had Nigel Arkin, under

12:39

Crosby, who's now become a

12:42

manager envirocloth now become a

12:42

manager, Kevin Pressman that was

12:47

kinda like the coaching team and

12:47

the core group of staff. They

12:52

did, they built a hugely, like,

12:52

hard working culture. And I

12:59

think that's credit to they

12:59

understood what their fan base

13:05

is. So the majority of the

13:05

Scunthorpe fan base is, like you

13:08

said, he's a hard working. It's

13:08

a hard working town that graft

13:15

as hard as they can for the

13:15

money they get, and they live

13:18

the life that they can off. They

13:18

it's like, it's not the most

13:22

affluent of areas. And that's

13:22

just kind of the, the ethos that

13:29

they brought to the club. And I

13:29

think by bringing that to the

13:33

club, and putting that out on

13:33

the pitch, it also ended due to

13:37

the fans that then start coming

13:37

back. And it's a good spiral

13:41

that keeps coming in. I think

13:41

that was very clever, to be fair

13:44

from them. Thinking about it

13:44

now, I mean, you don't always

13:49

reflect on that as a player. But

13:49

if when you start thinking back,

13:53

yeah, like if you can, if you

13:53

understand what your supporters

13:58

are, and how they live their

13:58

life and what they're looking

14:00

for, and you can provide that

14:00

and to a good level. It's a

14:04

great combination. Yeah, and I guess it's one of

14:07

those characters as well, isn't

14:10

it in that, you know, you know,

14:10

the support is love, the hard

14:14

working player don't know, they

14:14

love the player is gonna give

14:17

them all and I guess even more

14:17

in those kinds of those areas,

14:22

like, you know, they will see

14:22

themselves reflected in the

14:24

players that give them all on

14:24

the pitch and probably

14:26

ultimately, that's, they want

14:26

the success, but that's what

14:29

they need to see as a minimum.

14:29

And, you know, if you, you get a

14:33

club and a culture and a team,

14:33

you know, that's willing and

14:37

prepared to do that, then you're

14:37

gonna get a level of success

14:40

from that. You mentioned around

14:40

you know, you know, that time

14:44

that period, you have a really

14:44

strong like, learnings from it

14:49

in terms of, you know, the times

14:49

that there was failures,

14:52

ensuring that you you learned,

14:52

you know, we always talk about,

14:56

you know, when things go wrong

14:56

or failures and Making sure that

15:00

you learn from them. But, you

15:00

know, when that performance

15:03

wasn't going, well, you know,

15:03

what's your what's your big

15:05

learnings from it? It's kinda like, if you can take

15:09

responsibility and

15:13

accountability to start with,

15:13

that's a huge thing. And I think

15:16

for a young footballer, that's

15:16

very difficult because you don't

15:22

want to come across vulnerable,

15:22

because it's not seen as a

15:26

powerful thing to do. It's not

15:26

seen as strong. But actually, if

15:31

you can show that vulnerability,

15:31

by when you make a mistake, you

15:35

do something wrong by going

15:35

actually, yeah, look, I've done

15:38

something wrong here, I

15:38

understand I've done something

15:40

wrong, I believe that really

15:40

helps you to improve a lot

15:47

quicker than if you kind of if

15:47

you a bit, if you don't want to

15:54

admit it, if you want to appear

15:54

to be the person that hasn't

15:57

done anything wrong, because the

15:57

first way of improving yourself

16:02

is accepting that. And like I

16:02

say, as a young footballer,

16:08

that's difficult. But if you can

16:08

get that very quickly, and

16:13

you're actually, you're not

16:13

happy to fail, because you

16:17

failed, you're happy to fail,

16:17

because you've tried, you've

16:21

given it your everything, and it

16:21

hasn't worked out, maybe

16:25

someone's better than you on the

16:25

day, maybe the team, you play a

16:29

fantastic, maybe you do make a

16:29

mistake, but the process you're

16:33

trying and the process you're

16:33

doing is for the best and the

16:36

better. Ultimately, that

16:36

feedback loop at some point,

16:40

you're going to work out where you went wrong, and you're going to improve a lot quicker than if

16:42

you don't think you've done

16:45

anything wrong. Yeah. And is that that self

16:47

awareness piece, isn't it, you

16:50

know, to be able to reflect on

16:50

yourself. You know, and it's one

16:56

of those I think people, when

16:56

you're younger, you find it

16:59

really difficult process to, you

16:59

know, look at and analyze

17:02

yourself or look at your games

17:02

and think where you did, you

17:06

might have been better, but

17:06

actually, is probably a really

17:10

powerful piece. Yeah. And I think what, what

17:12

I've tried to do, as I've got

17:17

older and become the more senior

17:17

keeper within the group is very

17:21

much I will watch all the

17:21

people, and I'm still learning.

17:27

I try not to create an

17:27

environment where it is right or

17:32

wrong. There's many different

17:32

ways of doing whatever works.

17:36

And different people are going

17:36

to have different ways. And I'll

17:38

ask questions, because I want to

17:38

learn but hopefully that allows

17:42

the younger keepers within the

17:42

group to feel like they can ask

17:46

questions so they can learn as

17:46

well. And that kind of comes

17:50

probably full circle from the

17:50

group that I had at Scunthorpe.

17:53

So Kevin Pressman was the keeper

17:53

coach, we had Joe Murphy who was

17:57

at the time he was an

17:57

international goalie he was with

18:00

the island Squat all the time.

18:00

And then a lot of year older

18:03

than me just list. Those two

18:03

were quite close and welcome

18:07

into the group really well. But

18:07

they've they were very willing

18:10

to answer questions, but also

18:10

encourage you to question

18:15

things. And it creates a real

18:15

good environment for people to

18:20

learn. And like it, I know, it

18:20

doesn't always happen in every

18:24

group. But if you can get that

18:24

it really does help going

18:28

forward. From a goalkeepers

18:28

point of view. I think self

18:33

analysis is a little bit easier,

18:33

because it's harder to point the

18:37

finger elsewhere, you see a lot

18:37

of what you do individually. And

18:44

the outcome is a lot of the time

18:44

very black and white. If you do

18:48

something right, you probably

18:48

make the same if you do

18:50

something wrong, the ball is

18:50

probably going to end up in the

18:53

goal. So it's harder to hide,

18:53

but it also means that you and

18:58

that spins back around to what

18:58

I'm saying at first, it also

19:01

means that you have to be on it

19:01

every day. You can't come in and

19:05

just blend into the background

19:05

as a goalkeeper because the

19:08

session falls down. No, definitely. And I guess

19:11

you've you spoke about there on

19:14

how you know as as you've got

19:14

older, within the group or as as

19:21

a goalkeeper, you know, you've

19:21

taken on different leadership

19:25

qualities. You know, one thing I

19:25

was quite interested on is like,

19:29

how do you lead as a goalkeeper?

19:29

You know, from the back during

19:33

games, I guess. How would you

19:33

kind of or what's the role as a

19:39

goalkeeper? I guess as as a

19:39

leader in a sense, because they

19:42

see the whole pitch you know,

19:42

they're always communicating

19:45

like they generally goalkeeper

19:45

says so how does that work?

19:50

For me, one of my coaches when I

19:50

was younger, always said if you

19:56

can place the right people in

19:56

the right positions It makes

20:01

your job so much easier. And I

20:01

mean, I wouldn't say I'm the

20:06

most fancy of goalkeepers, I

20:06

probably don't pull off the

20:10

eccentric saves and things like

20:10

that, I try to make things look

20:15

as easy as possible because I

20:15

want them to be as easy as

20:17

possible. And I guess my way of

20:17

leading on the pitch is, if I

20:24

can understand the majority of

20:24

people's roles, if not, the

20:28

Senate has the full backs, the

20:28

deeper midfielders if I can

20:32

understand their roles out of

20:32

possession, then if I can

20:36

communicate to place them in the

20:36

right positions at the right

20:39

times, hopefully, I don't have

20:39

to do anything. What's nice at

20:43

the minute at the club, Hi, Matt

20:43

is the manager, Luke Williams,

20:48

he, he would love a game where

20:48

the goalkeeper doesn't even

20:53

touch the ball. That would be

20:53

his ideal match, the keeper

20:57

doesn't touch the ball, they

20:57

don't get in the area don't give

21:00

anything to do. And that's the

21:00

same for me, I like that. And

21:04

mine is very much can we build a

21:04

base at the from the back to be

21:09

in the right positions at the right time play the right football and then I don't have

21:11

to do anything, I think in past

21:15

time, and there will still be

21:15

managers out there that want

21:19

this from the goalkeeper,

21:19

they'll want someone who is a

21:23

real big character might tear

21:23

people apart in the dressing

21:28

room, because that's what they

21:28

want. I think it's harder to do

21:33

that now with the players coming

21:33

through because of the

21:36

environments they've been

21:36

brought up in. That's not me. So

21:44

I wouldn't be like that in a

21:44

dressing room, I'm actually

21:46

quite quiet. I kind of do my own

21:46

thing. But if it comes to a

21:50

point where I believe we've gone

21:50

away from our team principles, I

21:55

will say something. And I kind

21:55

of feel like if that's the case,

21:58

because I don't say a lot. When

21:58

you do speak, it's actually

22:03

people listen, because it's

22:03

like, I don't say a lot. So when

22:08

he does say must be something's

22:08

wrong. I think you've just got

22:13

to be authentic to yourself in

22:13

the dressing room as a person

22:15

and like I say myself, I'm not a

22:15

screamer in a shelter. But on

22:20

the pitch, I'm probably a bit of

22:20

a different character because I

22:23

will be quite aggressive and

22:23

commanding in terms of where in

22:28

terms of my communication of

22:28

where I want people and stuff

22:31

like that. Just to make the game

22:31

as easy as possible for my team.

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23:07

I think what really

23:07

hits home with me is around, you

23:11

can be like that on the pitch, I

23:11

guess and have the confidence

23:14

because you understand the roles

23:14

of the team and the roles of

23:18

other players. And I think it

23:18

just shows to me like the

23:22

importance of you know, as a

23:22

goalkeeper, you need to be a bit

23:25

of a scholar of the game in

23:25

that, you know, you're going to

23:28

have to take responsibility to

23:28

understand what you want for

23:31

your fullbacks understand where

23:31

you want to send a hive and

23:33

understand what your game

23:33

principles are. Because, you

23:36

know, you are going to have a

23:36

role in like you just mentioned

23:39

that commanding them or you

23:39

know, giving them the messages

23:42

to help them and it probably

23:42

does help those players as well.

23:47

Yeah, and I was just going to

23:47

backup your comment there done I

23:50

think like, especially the way

23:50

the way kind of the people at

23:56

the top of football now want

23:56

football to be played. There is

24:00

so much more demand on the

24:00

goalkeeper, so their

24:04

understanding of all them other

24:04

positions needs to be topped off

24:08

because if if you have that the

24:08

manager then trust you and then

24:13

you're almost you're almost a

24:13

playing coach, you just kind of

24:19

get where I'm coming from you

24:19

because you're always you're not

24:24

always involved in the play but

24:24

you're all you can see

24:27

everything can you get breaks in

24:27

play where you can communicate

24:31

over to people when the balls

24:31

elsewhere, even though you are

24:35

fully engrossed and focused in

24:35

the game?

24:39

Yeah, and then I think that's

24:39

the second thing what you know,

24:42

stood out to me there is is how

24:42

you communicate it and I think

24:46

you hit the nail on the head

24:46

there really and that, you know,

24:50

being the shelter the Screamer

24:50

inside of changing rooms, okay,

24:54

yeah, you might get a response

24:54

but there's probably, you know,

24:59

more efficient methods of going

24:59

about it like you say that, you

25:02

know, you speak when you need to

25:02

speak, you know, so and how you

25:08

respond and how you communicate

25:08

to people is, is really

25:12

important. It's a skill set

25:12

that, you know, is really

25:15

powerful and really valuable.

25:15

Because, you know, a lot of time

25:19

in professional environments,

25:19

you know, your role is, yeah,

25:22

okay, it's 90 minutes on your on

25:22

the field. But you know, it's

25:26

also those other moments around

25:26

the field.

25:30

Yeah, and what you just said

25:30

there about how you communicate,

25:34

I think that has become a huge

25:34

part of kind of like, not

25:39

necessarily the playing side of

25:39

football now, but definitely the

25:42

coaching and management side,

25:42

the last kind of five, six

25:47

years, I felt kind of the, the

25:47

staff that I've been around,

25:53

they seem to be more conscious

25:53

about how they're delivering

25:57

information and things. And I

25:57

know myself now, I'm a lot more

26:01

aware of just my choice of

26:01

words, how that can affect a

26:06

player, I feel very much. Now, a

26:06

lot of the time, I will try and

26:14

pick points of what people's

26:14

done well, and reinforce that

26:20

than picking things they've done

26:20

wrong, that there are times

26:24

where you do kind of have to,

26:24

you have to flag up the things

26:29

you've done wrong, because

26:29

they're they're that obvious

26:32

that you're like, look, we

26:32

didn't do this right, for, this

26:36

is how we can do it. But most of

26:36

the time I am looking at, oh,

26:40

you know, when you did that

26:40

little bit of play, that's

26:42

brilliant. That is fantastic. If

26:42

we can get that more often, then

26:46

that's going to be really good

26:46

for us as a team. Rather than

26:50

saying, look that one time that

26:50

you did that is absolutely

26:52

rubbish, we can't do that. It

26:52

has a different effect on the

26:57

player. You want to lift them up

26:57

and you want them to feel

27:00

brilliant. You don't want them

27:00

to feel rock bottom down on the

27:03

floor. Yeah, definitely, you know,

27:05

definitely. This is looking at

27:08

your like, one thing that stood

27:08

out to me is, you know, you went

27:12

through a period where you moved

27:12

around clubs a little bit, one

27:15

season here, maybe two season

27:15

there. One thing I was really

27:19

interested in, like, during this

27:19

period, or perhaps like during

27:23

your career, you know, how and

27:23

what did you do to ensure that,

27:28

you know, you were always

27:28

physically ready to perform you

27:31

know, what, you know, things

27:31

that you pick up and build into

27:34

your routine? Because I'm

27:34

really, I'm really, I agree with

27:39

or, you know, believe that, you

27:39

know, players develop their

27:42

routine. And when they

27:42

understand their body and what

27:44

works for them, you know, that's

27:44

really important. What sort of

27:47

things did you pick up to ensure

27:47

you're always ready?

27:52

Yeah, like, the biggest

27:52

difficulty with a goalkeeper is

27:58

that much speed. Like, if you're

27:58

an outfield player, you get 1015

28:06

minutes to show what you can do

28:06

maybe in a different position or

28:09

whatever, if you're not in the

28:09

start and 11. So you maintain

28:13

that kind of feel of how quick

28:13

an actual competitive game is,

28:20

if you're a goalkeeper, you can

28:20

do everything on the training

28:24

ground that you won. But say

28:24

I've had instances where I'm out

28:30

of the team, I'm seen as a

28:30

number two, that's fine, but

28:33

there'll be maybe a cup game

28:33

that you'll get put in for or

28:36

you might come in for a couple

28:36

of games. And it's so difficult

28:39

to go into that Cup game, or

28:39

that one game when you haven't

28:44

played for kind of five, six

28:44

weeks to actually to have the

28:52

light the mental speed I would

28:52

say your training your work with

28:57

like yourself with the strength

28:57

and conditioning coaches and

29:00

things like that. I've always

29:00

taken it when I'm out the team

29:04

that is a great opportunity for

29:04

me to develop something so

29:07

whether it's a physical point of

29:07

my game, whether it's a

29:11

technical aspect of my game or

29:11

stuff like that, I always kind

29:14

of see it write about the team

29:14

what can I improve now what what

29:18

am I working on, but the hardest

29:18

thing is when you go into the

29:21

game, actually having that speed

29:21

of thought and speed of process

29:25

because it is quicker in a game

29:25

whether you have a little bit of

29:30

anxiety because you want to

29:30

perform to your best because you

29:33

want to get back in the team.

29:33

Whether you're not quite at it

29:37

that day. Whether the other team

29:37

is absolutely flying you might

29:40

be playing a team three three

29:40

leagues above because it's a

29:43

club game or you might be

29:43

playing someone who's bottom of

29:45

your league and they're fighting

29:45

for relegation is just really

29:49

difficult to maintain that kind

29:49

of people talk it talk about as

29:54

much fitness but it's the speed

29:54

of what an actual game is. And I

30:00

I'll give you an example. So our

30:00

first game of the season this

30:02

season, I'd got an injury and

30:02

preseason, which meant a missed

30:06

like three weeks on the grass of

30:06

preseason, I was back on the

30:10

grass for two weeks, but really

30:10

only proper training for one

30:13

leading into the first game of

30:13

the season. The goalkeeper got

30:17

sent off after 10 minutes, and

30:17

we ended up losing the game for

30:21

151. And me personally, I said

30:21

to my coach after like after the

30:26

game, the goalie coach that I

30:26

wasn't actually physically ready

30:31

for that game. Like, I hadn't

30:31

had enough exposure to the speed

30:39

and the the intensity of that

30:39

game. Even though the training

30:43

that we've got our club is

30:43

fantastic. Like, it's probably

30:47

the best I've had throughout my

30:47

career and how we train day in

30:50

day out. But nothing replicates

30:50

that. And it's very difficult.

30:55

But that's the biggest problem.

30:55

What I found is just like I just

31:01

said to you there, I try and use

31:01

the period of time to improve

31:05

something. But I prepare every

31:05

week as if I am going to play

31:11

that game. And yes, you have a

31:11

disappointment on the Friday or

31:16

the Saturday that you're not in

31:16

the starting team, but you're

31:21

still part of a squad and that

31:21

team, the 11 that starts the

31:26

season on the first game of the

31:26

season. He's like I would

31:30

guarantee is never the same 11

31:30

That finishes the season on the

31:34

last day. It is just doesn't

31:34

happen. So you know, at some

31:38

point throughout there, you are

31:38

going to contribute, you have to

31:40

contribute. And from a

31:40

goalkeepers point of view, you

31:44

might go the full season and not

31:44

play. But actually you've

31:47

contributed Monday to Friday,

31:47

every single week. If you're not

31:50

at your best Monday to Friday,

31:50

then you're not giving the

31:54

challenge for the lads that are

31:54

going out on the pitch on the

31:56

Saturday to perform. So you

31:56

still do contribue but it Yeah,

32:02

it's just making sure you have

32:02

that professionalism that from a

32:06

goalkeepers point of view, you

32:06

are seven days a week football,

32:11

you're not right, I'll just go

32:11

through the motions for a couple

32:15

of days. And then when it starts

32:15

building up to the game, I'll

32:18

I'll get going and then I'll

32:18

perform at the game. It doesn't

32:22

happen like that. You have to be

32:22

on it every single day, in terms

32:26

of being focused being in there,

32:26

giving your all and then just

32:32

see where that takes you. And

32:32

I've always kind of lived by

32:36

that I found it difficult.

32:36

Moving away from home at first,

32:41

it was hard to maintain that as

32:41

well as having I did have a

32:48

happy home life, but you're away

32:48

from family. And when you go

32:52

from living, what like 24 years

32:52

where you're five minutes around

32:57

the corner from both your

32:57

parents, your brother and your

32:59

sister or your friends to then

32:59

live in two and a half hours

33:03

away. And you go home maybe

33:03

every other weekend. And when

33:08

you're home for one day and you

33:08

need to see six people, you

33:13

don't get much time I found that

33:13

really difficult if I'm honest,

33:16

and that that was a real tough

33:16

thing. Some people might find

33:21

that some people actually might

33:21

really enjoy being living away

33:24

from home. I found it tough. But

33:24

once I kind of got over that bit

33:28

and then realized actually, I

33:28

just need to keep being

33:32

consistent and doing what I do

33:32

for me as a goalkeeper day in

33:36

day out it became easier. Yeah, and I think that's real

33:39

good advice. You touched on you

33:44

touched on in there around you

33:44

know as as a goalkeeper You know

33:48

often teams have three

33:48

goalkeepers maybe four

33:51

goalkeepers within a squad and

33:51

your role you know can be very

33:55

different you know, what, what

33:55

are I guess what is the how does

34:02

that you talk about goalkeeper

34:02

unions and things like that

34:05

what's the value of that

34:05

goalkeepers union and how would

34:08

you think that you know you need

34:08

to work together to you know,

34:12

get the best out of yourself and

34:12

as a team

34:20

the biggest thing for me is that

34:20

if you're if all of your

34:26

goalkeepers in your group, that

34:26

they won't all be the same

34:30

goalkeepers. But if they see

34:30

football the same way, it

34:34

becomes easy to have

34:34

communication in terms of

34:38

different situations. When

34:38

things arrive, it becomes easier

34:44

to take criticism I would say

34:44

and give praise and kind of take

34:49

praise as well because you know

34:49

that that goalkeeper sees the

34:53

game pretty similar to yourself.

34:53

Book I think the biggest thing

35:01

with the union now, like kind of

35:01

goalkeeper groups, and you're

35:05

seeing more, especially at

35:05

higher levels, they have a first

35:08

team goalkeeper group of

35:08

probably four goalkeepers, they

35:12

have someone who's seen as

35:12

number one, someone who's seen

35:15

who's close to number one and

35:15

challenging. Somebody who's

35:20

usually a younger body coming

35:20

through who's got a lot of

35:23

potential. And then a lot of the

35:23

top group clubs now have a

35:28

really experienced, older

35:28

goalkeeper who actually is

35:32

probably not going to play for

35:32

he's there to impart his

35:36

knowledge on the other three.

35:36

What that kind of provides is it

35:42

gives you a lot of different

35:42

opportunities in your training

35:45

ground. So your practice design

35:45

can be much more live and much

35:51

more realistic to game

35:51

situations, which has, I found

35:55

that over the last couple of

35:55

years with those, we've brought

35:58

more young goalies into our

35:58

group to allow that. And it also

36:03

provides discussion about things

36:03

on the training ground, I mean,

36:11

I see football very similar to

36:11

how our goalkeeper coach does

36:14

now, and he will put certain

36:14

drills on. And it might be that

36:20

one of the goals, one of the

36:20

young goalkeepers that's in the

36:23

in the goal in this certain

36:23

practice, he keeps doing a

36:28

certain fall. And without the

36:28

coach even telling me when it

36:32

comes to my surf, I'll do

36:32

something a little bit different

36:35

that highlights the fall. And

36:35

without having to coach you kind

36:41

of just saying why I've done

36:41

that. And if you have a good

36:43

group, they're like Will, you've

36:43

done that because actually, I

36:47

haven't addressed you as having

36:47

the ball live. And I've kind of

36:51

tried to cheat. And it helps so

36:51

much in that case. And it's

36:56

different ways of allowing the

36:56

communication of experience

37:02

across. Some people also might

37:02

provide that because there's a

37:09

lot more top goalkeeper coaches

37:09

that are coming into the game

37:15

that haven't had the experience

37:15

of playing it at a high level.

37:20

They're very, very good

37:20

goalkeeper coaches, but they

37:24

also miss all the areas because

37:24

I've never been in that

37:29

situation. Whereas if you bring

37:29

in a Scott Carson's an example

37:35

you bring in someone like that

37:35

the experience he's had on the

37:38

pitch is absolutely like it's

37:38

huge and if you can marry that

37:44

with a goalkeeper coach who's

37:44

got great practice design

37:47

understands kind of the position

37:47

really good analysis you've got

37:53

such a good group there that

37:53

provides so much kind of detail

38:02

and like levels for the group to

38:02

actually learn from

38:08

yeah and and I think like you're

38:08

saying there like the real

38:11

importance of you know, seeing

38:11

is you talking about seeing

38:15

yourself as like a an educator I

38:15

go you know, within the group

38:18

and things like that what the different roles you know, goalkeepers can play within it,

38:20

the value of having those

38:23

relationships the value of

38:23

having, you know, the challenge

38:27

the value of you know, being

38:27

able to appreciate everyone's

38:31

roles within that group. I'm

38:31

quite conscious of you know, we

38:35

have a great conversation here

38:35

but the conscious of the time

38:38

one area I really wanted to get

38:38

onto is is now obviously you're

38:43

at Notts County and you're

38:43

you're working in you know, a

38:49

real you know, possession based

38:49

or you know, possession and plus

38:53

kind of team sort of thing you

38:53

know, in terms of how Williams

38:56

sees the team sees the game of

38:56

football and how you play How

39:01

did you find that I guess

39:01

transition I imagine it's very

39:05

different so you know you're

39:05

scouting for days or if you

39:07

think back to Bristol Rovers day

39:07

so how do you find that

39:10

transition into you know,

39:10

playing within that that

39:13

philosophy as a goalkeeper where

39:13

the expectation of new is

39:17

potentially very different

39:17

especially using your feet for

39:20

example? Yeah, I think a couple of things

39:22

from that done to start with

39:25

like the previous manager to

39:25

Luke was start starting to build

39:33

kind of that platform of the

39:33

goalkeeper become like comes

39:38

into the build up a bit more. So

39:38

there was a very small platform

39:42

but nowhere near to the detail

39:42

loop did the other side is if I

39:47

become a manager or if I'm a

39:47

manager, I am a coach. That's

39:51

how I would want to play

39:51

football I've I've grown up

39:54

loving watching Barcelona loving

39:54

watching I X play football. So

39:58

I've always been like is a

39:58

goalkeeper first but it is a

40:03

plus one outfielder. But yeah,

40:03

you've spoken about Luke kind of

40:11

really changed my undoes not

40:11

understanding my outlook of what

40:17

a goalkeeper can bring to a team

40:17

in possession. I found it tough

40:23

at first, don't get me wrong,

40:23

you touched on it, they're going

40:26

from a Scunthorpe team and

40:26

probably quite other quite a few

40:31

of the others. I've always felt

40:31

quite competent with my feet and

40:34

comfortable. However, this is

40:34

different level like if you're

40:38

being told, right? You're the

40:38

goalkeeper, but I want you to

40:41

play right center half 35 yards

40:41

up the pitch in possession. It's

40:46

like, like, it blows your mind a

40:46

little bit. And we spent a lot

40:53

of time in preseason last year

40:53

working on that and working on

40:57

how that looks. And because he

40:57

brings so much detail, it

41:02

actually makes it a lot easier.

41:02

And he gives you that safety of

41:09

look, if we're going to play

41:09

like this, the might be the odd

41:12

time you make a mistake that

41:12

happens. But because on a whole

41:16

how we set up, you kind of get

41:16

away with them mistakes a little

41:21

bit, because as a team, we're

41:21

all in it together. But it

41:26

provides you options in that

41:26

situation. And yeah, it was hard

41:33

to get my head around, and

41:33

especially at 34 to go. Right

41:38

You know what, this is how he

41:38

wants to play football. We're

41:43

just buying into it, and we'll

41:43

just go with it. What I would

41:46

say is, when results come from

41:46

that, and success comes from it,

41:53

it makes it easier to follow.

41:53

Don't get me wrong, I spoke to

41:57

you kind of earlier this evening

41:57

and said I literally can't watch

42:01

football now without watching it

42:01

and thinking every team should

42:06

play how Luke wants us to play.

42:06

And I think that's a massive

42:12

measure of the detail that he

42:12

brings to what you want to do.

42:17

And I can only see if I'm going

42:17

to be a coach of goalkeepers

42:22

going forward, if I can develop

42:22

goalkeepers to play in that

42:26

system. And they have the

42:26

technical aspects and the

42:32

physical aspects to go to the

42:32

very light, they will play at

42:37

the very top in that style of

42:37

football. If I coach a

42:41

goalkeeper to stand there and

42:41

launch the ball every time and

42:45

kind of make saves, he might get

42:45

pretty good. But I don't believe

42:52

you'll ever have a chance to be

42:52

one of the best goalkeepers in

42:55

the country. Yeah, and I guess that that

42:57

touches on like, the question I

43:01

wanted to finish with and in

43:01

that what requirements do you

43:05

see that modern day goalkeepers

43:05

and as you're talking? They're

43:08

um, they're thinking around, you

43:08

know, you're talking about the

43:12

every top goalkeeper these days

43:12

you think about, you know, an

43:16

Edison or an artisan or, you

43:16

know, you're even looking at

43:20

what's going on at Arsenal

43:20

recently where, you know,

43:23

they've got a top goalkeeper

43:23

there in Ramsdale. And then they

43:26

brought in David rep. And it's

43:26

like, and probably purely

43:31

because of what he does with his

43:31

feet, right. Yeah, so in terms

43:35

of, you know, what requirements,

43:35

you think the modern goalkeeper,

43:39

you're a young keeper coming

43:39

through now and you go, this is

43:43

what you're going to have to do.

43:43

You know, what would you say?

43:48

Yeah, I think what you've

43:48

touched on there is spine, you

43:51

look at an Edison. And I mean,

43:51

one of my favorite goalkeepers

43:56

is to stay going and he probably

43:56

played similar to what Edison

44:01

did a little bit before Edison

44:01

come through, but Edison, for me

44:05

now is almost a complete

44:05

goalkeeper he, he's powerful,

44:09

very good shot stopper. In

44:09

possession very comfortable, he

44:15

can play off both feet, he can

44:15

play five yards, he can play 60

44:20

yards off a two step and strike.

44:20

But what is interesting is we

44:28

both cut well, you put Edison

44:28

and Allison under the same

44:32

bracket there and I would but

44:32

they're two very different

44:35

goalkeepers in terms of their

44:35

attributes. Edison, you would

44:40

say is a lot more powerful. He

44:40

looks probably a lot more

44:47

cleaner. Whereas Allison, in

44:47

terms of his shot, stopping I

44:52

think he's unbelievable in one

44:52

on one situations is brilliant.

44:55

What you wouldn't say was the

44:55

Orthodox kind of clean up

45:00

options is, he's very unorthodox

45:00

and then in possession, very,

45:05

very comfortable. But you

45:05

wouldn't say he has the same

45:10

skill set as Edison is a bit

45:10

more a kind of control, like a

45:16

bit more controlled with his

45:16

passing is longer distribution

45:20

is very good out of his hands

45:20

with like beside volley. But his

45:23

longer distribution is less of a

45:23

really powerful thing like

45:27

Edison, it's more of a clip into

45:27

areas. But they're both that

45:33

that's what I mean by the

45:33

goalkeeper growing up needs to

45:37

know what they are doesn't mean

45:37

they can't play that system.

45:42

They just play a little bit

45:42

different. And we've got the

45:44

same at Notts County now the

45:44

other goalkeeper that's there,

45:47

he has very different skill set

45:47

in terms of on the ball to me.

45:52

But we both play in the same

45:52

formation in the same setup, and

45:56

the same style of play, we just

45:56

bring different tools. And that

46:01

kind of then leads on to what

46:01

Arteta was saying about Raya and

46:04

Ramsdale, how he believes going

46:04

forward, whichever one has the

46:10

right skill set for the

46:10

opposition or the game plan that

46:13

he wants to play, then he

46:13

believes that's how he's going

46:15

to play it. What we'll be

46:15

interested in is whether that

46:18

actually plays out. And that's

46:18

how he does it, or whether that

46:22

was his way of answering the

46:22

question when David Raya got put

46:27

in, because Ramsdale has done

46:27

really good, and the pressures

46:30

on them to then perform because

46:30

you take an hour and out like

46:34

that will be really interesting

46:34

to see if he does that. And if

46:37

he does a hold your hands up and

46:37

go, Well, to be fair, he said

46:41

that, and for every single

46:41

player in the squad in other

46:43

positions, that's what he does.

46:43

So I think eventually, at the

46:48

very, very top level, that's

46:48

probably going to happen,

46:51

because there aren't going to be

46:51

that many good goalkeepers that

46:54

the top level teams won. And

46:54

they place what if your top top

46:59

team you play 64 games in a

46:59

season that goalkeeper can't

47:03

perform at his top level for 64

47:03

games? So you want to that can?

47:07

So we'll be interesting to see

47:07

if he sticks by that. But yeah,

47:11

for me just answering the

47:11

question your skill set, I think

47:14

if if you took an Edison my

47:14

opinion, an Edison, I think he's

47:20

almost the complete package. If

47:20

you want to take anything, you

47:26

want to aim to be like that. But

47:26

just because you don't have the

47:29

same skills as him, doesn't mean

47:29

you can't fit in the same

47:33

system, you find your own way,

47:33

and you bring your own

47:36

personality to that position.

47:36

But you try what the what your

47:41

manager at the time, what your

47:41

coach at the time is trying to

47:43

get you to do and you just do it

47:43

in your own way.

47:46

You know, I mean that, you know,

47:46

that's a really nice one to

47:49

finish on. And we we speak about

47:49

it, we spoken about it with, you

47:53

know, outfield players before

47:53

about knowing what your super

47:55

strength is, you know, are you

47:55

super fast are you you know,

48:00

really good at what we want, you

48:00

know, knowing what your

48:02

superstring fears and I guess

48:02

that's the same lens from a

48:06

goalkeeper, you're going to have

48:06

certain strengths and knowing

48:09

how to then utilize those within

48:09

the systems that you you, you do

48:13

work in being really really

48:13

valuable, really important. Sam,

48:18

Thanks for Thanks for joining us

48:18

tonight. You know, it's been a

48:22

real pleasure to speak to you.

48:22

You know, I think there's some

48:24

really interesting conversations

48:24

there you know, you've been able

48:28

to share I guess, a lens from

48:28

yourself as a player, your lens

48:33

yourself looking and being a

48:33

obviously a scholar of the game.

48:39

And you know, I think there's

48:39

there's loads in there that we

48:42

can take home and learn from.

48:47

I've really improved, I've

48:47

really appreciate speaking to

48:51

you're done, I enjoyed it. And

48:51

if any, if anyone can take one

48:55

tiny bit away from anything that

48:55

I've said, then I'll be really

48:59

happy, like, the longer my

48:59

career has gone on. I probably

49:02

take as much joy in the players

49:02

that I've worked with and the

49:06

goalkeepers I've worked with

49:06

doing well as myself doing well.

49:10

So if I can help in any way then

49:10

I've really enjoyed it.

49:16

And you will, yeah, thank you,

49:16

Sam. And yeah, thank you. Thank

49:21

you all for joining us. Once

49:21

again, thank you to connection

49:25

technologies. And thank you