0:00

Wondery Plus subscribers can binge seasons

0:02

of Legacy early and ad-free. Join

0:04

Wondery Plus in the Wondery app

0:06

or on Apple podcasts. Hello

0:14

and welcome to this new series of Legacy.

0:16

This time, and I am so

0:19

excited for this, we are exploring

0:21

Cleopatra. Now,

0:24

you probably have an image

0:26

in mind when you think

0:28

about Cleopatra. We've all seen

0:30

the movies and the art,

0:32

reimaginings, the AI generative depictions.

0:35

When I think about Cleopatra,

0:37

I think about her incredible

0:39

aesthetic, her total awareness

0:42

of how to manage her brand,

0:44

but also her political power and

0:46

historical legacy because she was one

0:48

of the most consequential women in

0:50

history. Peter, why do you

0:53

think Cleopatra's legacy matters? Well,

0:55

I love the Egyptians and I guess Cleopatra was

0:57

one of the very, very few women that I

0:59

heard about when I was doing history at

1:01

school. There's Cleopatra, there's Queen Elizabeth I, and then

1:04

Queen Victoria, that's about it.

1:06

So I think of Cleopatra as a really

1:08

important, a powerful woman. And I

1:10

think of us being exceptional. I didn't really

1:12

hear that much about other women in antiquity.

1:15

So I think that's one of the reasons

1:17

why her story has captivated so many people,

1:19

from filmmakers to poets, playwrights like Shakespeare, even

1:22

video games. And I guess part of

1:24

the story is because she has an

1:26

amazing story that involves political power, but

1:28

also love and death and

1:30

darkness. And the displays of power and

1:32

wealth in ancient Egypt, all of us

1:35

do have that idea in our mind,

1:37

not just about what Cleopatra looked like,

1:39

but about pyramids and about mummies

1:41

and about gold and jewels and

1:43

wealth. And we do

1:45

have these narratives. We've all heard about

1:47

and imagined Cleopatra, but one of the

1:50

things I'm most looking forward to doing

1:52

in this series, Peter, is disentangling what

1:54

we think we know from what is

1:56

true. And the thing about Cleopatra is

1:58

that her story... has been

2:01

told by others who've had their own

2:03

agendas on so many levels. It's been

2:05

told by men, it's primarily been told

2:07

by Romans, and I

2:10

think it's also been co-opted into this

2:12

quite Eurocentric imagining of ancient history as

2:14

well. So for all of those reasons

2:16

I think that it's been harder to

2:18

get to the truth of who Cleopatra

2:20

was and what her legacy is and

2:22

that's something I'm really hoping we will

2:24

be able to get to for everyone

2:26

listening. Spoiler alert, the more we try

2:28

to find out about Cleopatra, I suspect

2:30

the more we're going to learn about

2:32

ourselves. From

2:47

Wandery and Goldhanger, I'm Peter Frankiper. I'm

2:49

Afua Hirsch. And this is Legacy, the

2:51

show that tells the lives of the

2:53

most extraordinary men and women ever to

2:55

have lived and asks if they have

2:58

the reputation that they deserve. This

3:01

is Cleopatra,

3:05

Episode 1, The

3:10

Teased Trail. Right

3:23

Afua, where do we start with Cleopatra? When

3:25

you think about her, what is it that

3:27

comes to mind first? I'm going to just

3:29

bring it up right at the outset because

3:32

there was a new Netflix series about Cleopatra,

3:34

executive produced by Jada Pinkett-Smith last year,

3:36

and it erupted in huge

3:38

controversy because this series depicted Cleopatra

3:40

as a black woman, as an African

3:43

queen, both in terms of her identity

3:45

and also her physical appearance. And

3:48

apparently that upset many people who felt that

3:50

this was black-washing history.

3:52

And I raise that now because I've always thought

3:54

of Cleopatra not only as one of the few

3:56

women in history whose agency has

3:58

always been recognized. and taught, but

4:01

also because I've always thought of

4:03

her as an African woman. And I know

4:05

her heritage is complicated and I'm sure we're going to

4:07

get into that. But when I think

4:09

about her, I think about her as

4:11

an African woman, a woman who had

4:13

real political and military power and

4:15

who had agency and control

4:17

of her own sexuality, femininity

4:20

and image. And for those reasons, I

4:23

have always been fascinated by her. That

4:25

story about Cleopatra starts with her name.

4:27

It means a glory of the father.

4:29

So Cleopatra, when she's born, is already

4:32

someone who is being defined by not

4:34

just her sexuality and gender, but by her dad.

4:37

And that's quite a sort of important starting point

4:39

to try to think about Cleopatra, about where she's

4:41

born and what the line it is that she

4:43

comes from. So she was born in 69 BCE

4:46

in Alexandria in Egypt. And it's

4:49

a pretty precarious world that she's born into, isn't

4:51

it, Peter? Yes, it is. The world

4:53

we're looking at in the Mediterranean 2000 years ago, on the one hand,

4:57

you don't have a lot of

4:59

things that we have today, coffee

5:01

shops, broadband, but it's a hyper

5:03

connected world where there's huge amounts

5:05

of knowledge exchange, lots of cosmopolitanism,

5:08

multilingualism, lots of different belief systems.

5:10

It's a kind of vibrant, noisy

5:12

place. And Alexandria is a busy

5:14

port, the kind of gateway to

5:16

the Mediterranean, to the north, but

5:18

ultimately connects through the Nile and through

5:21

Red Sea passages. So that opens up

5:23

the gateways through to the Middle East

5:25

to trade in Arabia, frankincense and incense

5:27

and spices and so on, and then

5:29

through right the way through to India.

5:31

So it's a really exciting cosmopolitan place

5:33

where you can get rich fast. And

5:35

the greatest sort of attribute that Alexandria

5:38

has, it has access more or less

5:40

to unlimited food thanks to the Nile

5:42

floods. So

5:44

it's really the bread basket of the region,

5:46

isn't it, Peter? And the thing that I've always

5:49

wished I could have seen is the

5:52

famous library, which was burned down during

5:54

Cleopatra's lifetime and the lighthouse, which is

5:56

one of the wonders of the ancient

5:58

world and had incredible technology for the

6:00

time able to emit light, I think, more

6:02

than 30 kilometres away.

6:05

So that really tells you something about

6:07

the sophistication of this city. Even at

6:09

the era where we're looking at it, when I think it's fair

6:11

to say it was past its peak and on the wane and

6:14

we're right at the end of this

6:16

era of ancient Egyptian pharaonic rule. It's

6:18

funny, scholars and historians, they love the library

6:20

because everybody who tends to be a professor

6:22

of classics or professor of Egyptology loves libraries.

6:24

I wonder how much that really meant to

6:26

the daily grind, thinking about I'd love to

6:28

pop in to check out a few papyri

6:31

later in the day. But the library is

6:33

founded by Ptolemy I, who has the nickname,

6:36

lots of these kings have nicknames of Soto,

6:38

which means saviour, it's a kind of Donald

6:40

Trump type version of himself, and

6:42

the lighthouse, likewise. And that lighthouse, like

6:44

you said, was a sort of technological

6:47

masterpiece to be able to guide ships. But

6:49

it's something that makes Alexandria stand out, that

6:52

it's a kind of beacon, literally. It

6:54

is this kind of magnet that sits

6:57

in Egypt. And one of the problems is

6:59

that there are other big magnets in the

7:01

Mediterranean from the time of the Ptolemies, and

7:03

one of them starts to become really big

7:05

and a real rival, and that city, its

7:07

name is Rome. This is an era and

7:09

a region you know a lot about, Peter.

7:11

And you mentioned Ptolemy I, there are a

7:13

lot of Ptolemies in this story. Tell

7:16

us about the Ptolemies and

7:18

their founding ancestor Peter, who

7:20

I mainly know about from your work

7:22

actually, Alexander the Great. Well everybody loves

7:25

Alexander the Great, I mean he's a

7:27

kind of pin up for historians, classicists,

7:29

military rulers, and the two big conquests

7:31

that Alexander made, he was the son

7:34

of Philip of Macedon, was first to

7:36

knock out the Persian Empire and then

7:38

Egypt too. Those two planks together were

7:40

absolutely critical. And he was

7:42

quite an immodest man, so he tended to

7:44

found cities in his own name. And it's

7:46

not just because he wants to have stuff

7:49

named after himself, it's also because cities are

7:51

the kind of ways in which people can

7:53

share and exchange, and they can share and

7:55

exchange ideas, goods, trades, and

7:57

that allows empires to be built.

8:00

I mean, you mentioned about Cleopatra and the

8:02

kick-off about what her identity was. The irony

8:04

is that the Ptolemies, and they all typically

8:06

have the same name, are in

8:08

fact Greek. Ptolemies who take

8:10

over Egypt are descendants of one

8:13

of Alexander's generals. And one

8:15

of the reasons why Egyptian leaders will marry their

8:17

brothers is because the bloodline of

8:19

the Greeks is to keep themselves away from

8:21

the Egyptians. So it's not just that, should

8:24

we think about Cleopatra as being an African

8:26

queen? Should we even think about being Egyptian

8:28

in the first place because she's an outsider

8:30

altogether? But we don't know who her

8:32

mother is. And even though Ptolemies tended

8:35

to marry their sisters, her mother, we

8:37

think, or you tell me, but from

8:39

what I've read, her mother as unknown

8:41

could have been a royal, but could have

8:43

been someone from the harem,

8:45

one of his concubines, could have been

8:47

an Egyptian woman, and there's a kind

8:50

of question mark about her parentage

8:52

in that sense. I guess there are

8:54

two different things. One is, what's your biological parentage? And

8:57

second, what do things look like to the

8:59

outside world? So although the Egyptians are marrying

9:01

their brothers and sisters, I don't think that's

9:03

who they're sharing their beds with at night.

9:05

I think that there's a presentation of power

9:07

and the projection, and to keep Egyptians out

9:09

of the way, it's not just that the

9:11

Greeks are proud of their bloodline. The problem

9:13

is if you marry posh, rich, elite Egyptians,

9:15

then you elevate the status of families

9:18

that could rival you, and you unsettle all

9:20

your kind of oligarch and elite class. So

9:22

there are lots of reasons why that sort

9:24

of intermarriage takes place between families. But the

9:27

problem is, as we know ourselves,

9:29

everybody listening to this podcast, sometimes families kick

9:31

off. Quite often people have quite intense arguments

9:33

with their families at Christmas times and at

9:35

mealtimes. Sometimes when we think about families, we

9:37

think they're robust and united. But in fact,

9:39

at the time we're talking about when Cleopatra's

9:41

around, oh, Cleopatra, rather than her mother, Cleopatra,

9:43

or any of the other Cleopatras, the

9:46

Ptolemies are busy in fighting and struggling

9:48

for competition for power, partly because of

9:50

the instability of families, but also because

9:52

of Rome popping up onto the horizon

9:54

as a cultural partner, but also as

9:57

a rival. Let's just be clear, Peter.

10:00

The is a nightmare for

10:02

revealing about a faster Ptolemy.

10:04

Eve and Cleopatra's generated. It is

10:06

vital as yes. Imagine your Christmas

10:08

family. Hell, Put it on Steroids

10:10

at zero. This is of the scale,

10:12

but we'll get that. Young

10:16

pay a batch of a. Growing

10:18

up is living a life of

10:20

luxury. Peacocks in the palace and

10:22

servants to taste. Food to make sure

10:24

it's not. Poisoned. Incredibly ornate,

10:26

just core anesthetics. jewels,

10:28

emeralds, Indian turtle cells

10:31

which is gemstones. Glorious.

10:33

Oh fuck is this

10:35

is something. I think

10:37

that. I believe gravitates towards

10:39

about. She's also very intellectual. She.

10:42

Plaza she's curious, is an

10:44

incredible linguist, speaks nine languages

10:47

I think, and was really

10:49

interested in reading and learning.

10:51

Literature and culture and that's something she

10:54

was known for at the time. wasn't

10:56

that Peter Part of it is that

10:58

women have pretty good status in Egypt's

11:00

at all levels of society that those

11:02

education for wealthy women, women are allowed

11:05

to own property or they can get

11:07

divorced and by the sides of the

11:09

time that's incredibly unusual and of course

11:11

very progressive but strip outrun a language

11:13

skills are fantastic to talk so she

11:16

speaks his European chocolate detect Hebrew Arabic

11:18

are made median policy and. Egypt's

11:20

and and Greek was can do the

11:22

hieroglyphics so I think what everybody knows

11:24

is that means of a lot of

11:27

homework is awesome, loss of discipline. She's

11:30

not afraid of a of an

11:32

assignment or tails and I think

11:35

the fact that she speaks Egyptian

11:37

and can write hieroglyphics is really

11:39

significant because as you were saying

11:41

that this complexity around by density

11:44

in the Ptolemaic tennessee that they

11:46

have this Macedonian. Greek heritage.

11:48

And they have traditionally distinguish

11:50

themselves from Egyptian Africans. That

11:52

Cleopatra is certainly a royal

11:55

who embraces the Egyptian contacts

11:57

and. Demonstrates. To.

12:00

people of Alexandria in Egypt, that

12:02

she speaks their language, that she's

12:04

fluent in their culture, she adopts

12:06

some of their ways, she acknowledges

12:08

their gods, she adorns herself in

12:10

an Egyptian way. So she's somebody

12:12

who really leans in to the

12:14

local culture around her rather than

12:16

only trying to reference her Macedonian

12:18

Greek heritage. Now tell me, Afua,

12:20

because I know that we both

12:22

love Cleopatra's father, right? So we

12:24

already said her name means

12:26

the glory of her father and everyone's

12:29

got out of a soft spot for

12:31

Ptolemy XII, whose nickname is Aulitis. One

12:33

of the problems with a lot of

12:36

our knowledge of Cleopatra and her family

12:38

is that it's come to us primarily

12:40

through Plutarch and other Roman historians

12:42

and narrators, and they certainly had their

12:44

own prejudices and ideas about what

12:46

they often regarded as Eastern culture. And

12:49

I think Ptolemy XII is a great

12:51

example of that. Aulitis, the flute player

12:53

he was known as, he

12:55

is described as overweight,

12:58

slightly effeminate, musical,

13:00

and I feel that that is portrayed

13:02

as a deliberate contrast to the kind of

13:05

masculine, disciplined, military prowess of

13:08

Roman leaders who really looked

13:10

down in general on these

13:12

Eastern rulers, not just because

13:14

of their Eastern culture, but also because

13:16

their monarchs, and Rome, the Republic, had

13:19

a motive in casting monarchies as these

13:21

kind of backward systems that couldn't compare

13:23

to enlightened Rome. So I think that

13:26

Aulitis falls victim to this, and it's

13:28

hard to know how much of it

13:31

was really true, but he

13:33

certainly wasn't depicted as a

13:35

very formidable figure, more of

13:37

the kind of effeminate Eastern

13:39

frivolous variety. It's a regular trope

13:41

that everybody who lives in the Orient who

13:43

were in Egypt's position is

13:45

no different in how it's conceptualised by

13:48

Roman authors and those writing in Greek

13:50

as well, that it's a place of

13:52

luxurious living, rubbish government, where everybody just

13:54

indulges themselves rather than Gets

13:56

cracking. But That does two things. Of Course it paints a

13:59

terrible picture of our own. The People. But it's

14:01

also designed to tell Rome is that

14:03

there's is the Us to inherits and

14:05

if they weren't called, doesn't serve in

14:08

the military or the quip expeditions they

14:10

can going com codified. At this time

14:12

rhymes power has been growing very substantially

14:14

mainly a digit expense taking ever tasted

14:17

like Cyprus, thousand of Africa, the announce

14:19

Libya and even into Syria and to

14:21

dear to sit there are challenges, hear

14:23

about. How do you actually respond to

14:26

an operational death star that Rome is

14:28

turning into this kind of. Military.

14:30

Power because it becomes a self fulfilling

14:32

prophecy. The more people like Pompey the

14:34

Greats is at the forefront of some

14:36

of these expenses, the more aggressive fail.

14:38

the more of a threat that poses

14:40

to Egypt. To be able to work

14:43

out how to respond to it must

14:45

be really difficult to be a foreign

14:47

ruler at this time. He needs to

14:49

ingratiate yourself with Rain because rhymes is

14:51

back with power struggles. If you make

14:53

the wrong bat, that could have city

14:55

catastrophic consequences. so I'll eat his bets

14:57

on Pompey. And meanwhile, the first nightmare

14:59

scenario. In astoria of the

15:01

Ptolemaic family politics. Success! when

15:04

Ptolemy daughter and Cleopatra's older

15:06

sister baron he came. Out

15:08

him becoming clean herself and teaching him

15:10

off the throne and out his country

15:13

misses the little taste of what's the

15:15

com get us right? So Ptolemy had

15:17

some Rome to try to put his

15:19

come back and he's looking for help.

15:22

People like Cater the younger is very

15:24

influential, roam the position and senators who's

15:26

in charge of Cyprus artifact. Cleopatra goes

15:28

with her father to Rome. She's only

15:31

ten or eleven years old, but she's

15:33

learning about how the world really works.

15:41

Nicely C A B C Grade.

15:44

Cleopatra grip her father's

15:46

has declined to finance.

15:49

Us and say that the ground sell

15:51

them setting the crossing from Alexandria with

15:53

parents but no less than a than

15:56

the uprising the and driven her father's

15:58

Ptolemy our lease ease. As

16:01

the wind ruffles her linen robe, she

16:04

looks out upon the sparkling Aegean Sea.

16:06

Ptolemy points to a smudge on the

16:08

horizon. That is Greece, the

16:11

birthplace of Alexander, our ancestral

16:14

homeland. Cleopatra knows

16:16

all about their Hellenistic lineage, but

16:19

she also feels a powerful connection to

16:21

Egypt, the land of her birth, its

16:23

language and customs. Inside

16:26

the villa, a Roman legionary leads them

16:28

along a corridor. Cleopatra's keen eyes take

16:30

in her surroundings. She knows

16:32

her father requires Roman Birking to retake his

16:35

throne, fits why they're here. And

16:37

if he's successful, she will one

16:39

day become queen. They

16:42

enter a chamber. A man in

16:44

a voluminous toga sits behind a low table.

16:47

As they approach, Cleopatra feels a stab

16:49

of alarm. In Alexandria, people

16:51

drop to their knees in their presence, but

16:53

he remains seated. Instead, her

16:56

father speaks first. Send

16:58

us a cato. I thank you for your hospitality,

17:00

but he's cut short with a wave

17:02

of cato's hand. It

17:04

was only a matter of time before your

17:06

profligacy got the better of you Ptolemy. Cleopatra

17:08

sees her father flinch, but he

17:11

forces a smile. I have been

17:13

a great friend to Rome, to Pompey himself. I

17:15

can be again. Cleopatra

17:18

feels a knot form in her stomach. She

17:20

dotes on her father. Watching him

17:22

abase himself to this Roman is more than she

17:24

can bear. She hears

17:26

cato caution. You bought your

17:29

title with Roman money. You

17:31

best hope she doesn't call in her

17:33

debts. By the

17:35

time they depart, Cleopatra's mind is racing.

17:38

The pampered world of the royal palace

17:41

suddenly feels very far away. But

17:43

she realizes if she is to survive, to

17:46

return to Egypt as a ruler, she

17:48

needs to understand the politics of power. And

17:51

the only place more powerful than Alexandria is

17:53

Rome. So

17:58

it takes a while but Ptolemy... army's gambles do pay

18:01

off and he gets reinstalled by a Roman

18:03

army that is sent by Pompey to go

18:05

and put him back in power

18:07

on his throne and Cleopatra goes back with

18:09

him, she's about 14 by now,

18:11

and later stories say that there's a guy

18:13

in the ranks of the Roman army who

18:16

takes a fancy to her who's called Mark

18:18

Antony and that relationship between Cleopatra and Mark

18:20

Antony is the kind of the heart of

18:23

this whole story really and the idea that

18:25

he couldn't keep his eyes off her, I

18:27

mean who knows, but that's the beginning of

18:29

the story of her legendary beauty. Even

18:47

if you haven't seen the film, you have

18:49

seen an image of Elizabeth Taylor with the

18:51

eyeliner and the curve. It's

18:54

a strong look. It is a strong

18:56

look, the bob, it is, it's a

18:58

strong look, but I think that sometimes

19:00

I would be resistant about having a

19:02

conversation in a serious historical discussion like

19:05

this Peter about somebody's appearance, but

19:07

Cleopatra's appearance matters for a number

19:09

of reasons. One, because

19:12

her ability to attract

19:14

and form intense romantic,

19:16

sexual and powerful relationships

19:18

with powerful men was

19:20

consequential for the history

19:22

of the era, let

19:24

alone for her own

19:26

personal experience and relationships

19:28

and intimate life, but also

19:30

because of all this politics around her

19:32

racial heritage. And for me, we

19:35

know that she was of Macedonian

19:37

Greek heritage, Ptolemies, that was their

19:39

origin story. We don't know who

19:41

her mother was. And what

19:43

I find so interesting is if she's depicted as

19:45

someone of more European heritage,

19:48

it's fine. And that's one guess. But

19:50

as soon as anyone posits that she might

19:53

have been partly Egyptian, that she might have

19:55

been more black and African presenting, all hell

19:57

breaks loose. The fact is, we don't know.

20:00

that it's perfectly reasonable to

20:02

assume that she could have

20:04

not only felt an affinity politically

20:06

and strategically to depicting herself as an

20:08

Egyptian, but she could have had some

20:10

Egyptian heritage. I just think that this

20:12

kind of dogmatic idea that we can't

20:15

allow her to be seen, to be

20:17

connected to Africa or Egyptian culture is

20:20

really revealing. There have been centuries

20:22

of politics between how Africa

20:24

is depicted versus how the Middle

20:27

East, Arab, and European worlds have

20:29

been depicted. And there's a

20:31

lot of baggage there. There's a lot of

20:34

resistance to the idea that

20:36

ancient Egypt was a black

20:38

civilization, that Africa could have created

20:40

something that offered invaluable

20:42

civilization and ingenuity to

20:45

the world, that sophistication

20:47

and science and technology

20:50

and marvels and architectural feats

20:52

could have come from black

20:54

Africans. Those things have been

20:56

very deliberately rejected. And that's one

20:58

of the reasons why I always think

21:00

it's important to acknowledge the role that

21:02

African and Egyptian culture have played, not just

21:04

in history, but in this story in particular.

21:07

So that's a long way of saying, we

21:09

don't know what she looked like, but she

21:11

could have been black. But are there a

21:13

couple of problems? I mean, people tend to

21:15

not ask what did Alexander the Great look

21:17

like? So is it the objectification? But also

21:19

the fact that you have people like Cassius

21:21

Dio, he writes about her, he meets 200

21:24

years afterwards, he says, she was a woman

21:26

of surpassing beauty. And at that time when

21:28

she was in the prime of her youth,

21:30

she was most striking. She also possessed

21:32

the most charming voice and a knowledge how

21:34

to make herself agreeable to everyone, being brilliant

21:37

to look upon and to listen to with

21:39

the power to subjugate everyone. I

21:41

mean, that's saying you've got to be exceptional for

21:43

a woman to be powerful and successful, you've also

21:45

got to be beautiful. Isn't that sort of problematic,

21:47

the kind of idealization, not just to be commenting

21:49

on what she looked like in the first place,

21:51

but also to say that she has to look

21:54

and be more powerful, more chatty, more

21:56

striking than anybody else. In

21:58

fairness, the sources. that we

22:00

have emphasise her physical appearance,

22:03

her sensuality, the performance of

22:05

her as well, you know, the sense, the

22:07

fragrance, the adornment. Plutarch in

22:09

particular gave us a lot of detail about

22:12

this, even though he was also writing a

22:14

hundred years after her death. So it's not

22:16

spurious, but I do think there is a

22:18

more sinister undercurrent to that, which

22:21

is not just diminishing a person, just her looks,

22:24

but also this idea that she was this wily

22:27

seductress, that the only reason she had

22:29

power in agency was because she was

22:31

able to ropenise her sexuality and ensnare

22:33

these poor, innocent Roman generals, you know,

22:36

that they fell victim to her spells.

22:38

And that is another very ancient trope

22:40

that I think is still very relevant,

22:42

that women, if they

22:45

achieve things, it's by drawing unfairly

22:47

on some kind of well of witchcraft

22:49

or seduction. And

22:52

I think Cleopatra is fascinating because

22:54

it's possible that she really was

22:56

incredibly beautiful. But I also think

22:58

there's a way that we can't trust the gaze

23:00

of the people who are telling us that because

23:02

they had their own agenda. They

23:04

didn't like Cleopatra. They felt that she corrupted

23:07

these righteous Roman men. They didn't like

23:09

the idea of a woman having power. They

23:11

didn't like the idea of someone from the east

23:13

being sophisticated. So it's very difficult

23:15

to trust the narrators of that

23:17

story at the same time. I wonder

23:19

also whether it's about projecting, like you

23:21

said, about not just being able to

23:24

say that a woman has to use

23:26

her sexuality together. That's the only way

23:28

we can explain things. But also to

23:30

blame women. Famously, Blaise Pascal, the 17th

23:32

century French philosopher, said if Cleopatra's nose

23:34

had been shorter, the whole face of

23:36

the earth would have changed. And I

23:38

didn't really understand. My first proper encounter

23:40

with Cleopatra and her beauty came in

23:42

asterisks, which talks about Cleopatra's nose being

23:44

long. But I had no idea what

23:47

that meant. And there's a bit of discussion about

23:49

whether it's because people with long nose are supposed

23:51

to be attractive or whether it's a fact to

23:54

do with leadership skills. And people with a big

23:56

nose tend to be good leaders. There's some idea

23:58

about that. with

24:01

a generous sized nose. I am

24:03

definitely leaning towards the former Peter.

24:05

I think that it

24:07

was regarded as emblematic

24:09

of her incredible beauty. Maybe

24:12

both, and maybe beautiful and powerful, a

24:14

good leadership model. But basically what Pascal

24:16

is saying is that if she hadn't

24:18

been either beautiful or powerful or both,

24:21

then there wouldn't have been a clash between the

24:23

great powerful people and men in Rome. So in

24:25

the 17th century, you've had a French philosopher saying

24:27

basically the reason why the Roman Empire fell is

24:30

because of Cleopatra being too beautiful, too well

24:32

educated, too powerful. If she'd known her place,

24:34

let the men get on with it, that

24:36

would have been okay. So I do think

24:38

that those discussions about what she looked like

24:40

are maybe toxic as too strong

24:42

a word, but they are all reductive towards

24:45

trying to force her into a

24:47

position of exceptionality rather than saying

24:49

maybe this is about politics. The

24:51

reason there are alliances and things go right

24:53

and wrong is that leaders, whether they're men

24:55

or women, are trying to make decisions. And

24:57

if you make a bad one, your empire

25:00

and your state goes down in flames. I

25:02

think both of these things can be true, Peter. I

25:05

personally, I love fashion, I

25:07

love adornment, I love style. I'm

25:09

intrigued by how this woman who

25:11

lived 2,000 years ago apparently used

25:14

all of those as ways

25:16

of expressing herself and also communicating

25:18

her power and agency and confidence

25:21

in the way she moves through

25:23

the world. But I also think

25:25

we can be critical of the way

25:27

that story has been told and handed

25:29

down and reduced, as you said, to this

25:32

kind of way of blaming

25:34

her and simplifying the ways

25:36

in which women do exert control,

25:38

that it's simply my bewitching

25:40

or intoxicating, seducing, corrupting men.

25:42

And I think we can engage with

25:45

both of those ideas. And so while

25:47

I am critical of the Roman

25:49

gaze, I still love the idea of

25:51

Cleopatra that I have in my head

25:53

as a very

25:56

fragrant smelling, beautifully

25:58

looking, heavily

26:00

adorned, made up, and she did

26:02

have her makeup artist travel everywhere

26:04

with her 2,000 years

26:07

before Instagram. That, to me, is

26:09

a fascinating fact. I can't argue with any

26:11

of that. All I just chip in as a

26:13

footnote is that men are doing the same kind of

26:15

thing too. Mark Antony shaves his legs to make sure

26:17

that they look really good in front of the

26:19

Roman soldiers. And the statues of

26:21

the Roman generals, they're bulging biceps, they all look

26:24

ripped. That's not what they look like in real

26:26

life. It's something that leaders always have to do

26:28

is to think about how they project themselves. What

26:30

do they wear? How do they look different? How

26:32

do they look like they're wealthier, richer, and connected

26:35

to the gods and so on? So we're going

26:37

to come back and look at her powers of

26:39

persuasion and charm later on, because when

26:41

her father dies in 51 BC,

26:44

Cleopatra, aged 18, then becomes

26:46

queen. And to celebrate, she

26:48

marries her 10-year-old brother Ptolemy

26:51

XIII in the traditional fashion to

26:53

keep that Greek bloodline pure. And

26:55

the new co-regents are inheriting a

26:57

country that is deep in debt.

27:00

Protection in doubt due to

27:02

the brewing civil war in Rome, and

27:05

to top it all off, a

27:07

crisis in the usually fertile breadbasket

27:09

region of the Nile, which is

27:12

currently suffering from famine and drought.

27:15

So Cleopatra has inherited a throne

27:17

that is on the one hand an incredible

27:20

opportunity for her to wield

27:22

the power that she has

27:24

known herself capable of wielding,

27:26

but a huge question as to whether

27:29

she can really make the most of

27:31

this opportunity given extremely difficult circumstances. She's

27:33

got to work quite hard to establish

27:35

herself properly in charge. It would be

27:37

normal to have a second ruler alongside

27:39

her, but she starts to sign documents

27:42

on her own. She puts herself on

27:44

the coins, and she works quite hard

27:46

in kind of building up support Cleopatra

27:49

is making headway, but then, plot twist,

27:52

after just three years on the throne,

27:54

she comes under threat. Emma

28:01

Forty Eight B c. The

28:03

Royal Palace Alexandria. Ringed

28:09

by forty dollars to have had storms

28:11

and. And

28:13

the still evening as the sound

28:15

of Angry Price has played for

28:17

the Falcons amid the war of

28:19

the crowd she's his recent. Have

28:23

brothers were seized control she

28:25

looks down on the dazzling

28:27

fits was her attended a.

28:29

Unit puffiness behind this. Andress can

28:32

try it sometime. Like Still against

28:34

a twenty one years. Old Fear

28:36

Factor is no strangers the machinations of

28:38

have a fantasy. Yet

28:41

even see as shocked as an

28:43

immense a prostitute managed to build

28:45

begin. With very civil

28:47

war and create some of the kingdom. The

28:50

atmosphere is steve. Frames demands

28:52

grain and ships have angered

28:54

Alexandria and to the point

28:56

of result she turns to

28:58

devices. First, I need to

29:00

remove my brother from his

29:02

counsel, show him he's being

29:04

manipulated. Forcing unfinished are gone

29:06

through the door of your

29:08

majesty. We just attained a

29:11

man coming to homie a

29:13

patch of health. Staff of along.

29:15

That she maintains a calm exterior.

29:18

The people are hungry but I

29:20

hardly think dangerous because I thought

29:22

about the room. Your

29:24

highness misunderstand she was an

29:26

assassin. Sent. By your brother. Now

29:30

she feels adrenalin lot of

29:32

with. The brother she

29:34

treated with such kindness. Her

29:36

husband's no less plotting to murder

29:38

her. Times a quickly

29:41

nine to get her to safety, Cleopatra

29:43

gays through the window to the found.

29:45

With desert be on the city

29:47

slowly. He shot effect series.

29:50

As long as you can pay for protection, she has a

29:52

chance of. Survival. But with

29:54

Ptolemy facts and consolidating power, she'll

29:56

be forced into exile and in

29:59

Egypt. That means fleeing to the depths.

30:02

In the distance she watches the wind

30:04

whips us into swirling clouds. She

30:07

knows she can hide there, but if she can't

30:09

find a way to wrest back control of her

30:11

country soon, she may also

30:14

die there. Like

30:20

we said, Ptolemies, like a few families, they

30:22

kick off quite quickly. There's a lot at

30:25

stake, and it's kill or be killed. I guess

30:27

this is part and parcel of what elite rulership

30:29

looks like. With the Romans popping

30:31

up on the horizon, looking like a

30:33

potential ally but also like a threat,

30:35

then squaring those circles, trying to make

30:37

sure that you are safe in position

30:40

becomes really important. I heard

30:42

that one of the reasons the full Ptolemy

30:44

story hasn't been adapted for TV is

30:46

because it's just too complicated because

30:49

everyone is called Ptolemy, Cleopatra

30:51

or Arsenoe. So we

30:53

haven't even met Arsenoe yet, but they all have

30:55

the same name, which made it quite difficult to

30:57

turn into a compelling drama where you

31:00

can follow what the hell is going on. That's

31:02

right. Ptolemy, by the way, is a terrific go-to

31:04

if you're ever having to play that old game

31:06

of Hangman. Anybody under the age of 30, well

31:08

that is, but when you're sitting somewhere

31:10

where you're not allowed to talk and you're trying

31:12

to guess words, Ptolemy with

31:14

the silent P is only second to Pterodactyl in

31:17

ways that you can win at that game. So

31:30

Cleopatra is under huge pressure, so she

31:32

runs and flees to the Sinai desert,

31:35

and her husband, who happens to be

31:37

her brother, is made the sole

31:40

ruler of Egypt. This is a country

31:42

that's still under huge amounts of ecological

31:44

pressure, financial pressure, unrest, and

31:47

there's some relief from Rome at the time

31:49

because the full beam of Rome is focused

31:51

elsewhere, a bubble with Pompey the Great. So

31:54

Rome is doing what it does so well,

31:56

which is self-destructing as it fights itself, and

31:58

at the moment we... We've got Pompey

32:00

the Great, who is the old

32:03

ally of Cleopatra's father, who

32:05

is now clashing in

32:07

a civil war with somebody that you may have heard

32:09

of, one general named Julius

32:11

Caesar. Rome

32:16

is basically a constant repeat

32:18

of Bonnie Tyler's I Need a

32:20

Hero. That

32:23

great 80s ballad where the

32:25

stage is always set for someone to

32:28

do heroic and wonderful things and Pompey

32:30

the Great is one of them.

32:32

Pompey, while being celebrated, becomes a victim of

32:34

his own success because the next hero that

32:36

comes into view, Julius Caesar, reckons that the

32:39

right thing to do is to chop down

32:41

the tallest poppy and there's no one greater

32:43

than Pompey. So yet another phase of civil

32:45

war starts in Rome about competition for who

32:47

should be the most important and in 48

32:49

BC Caesar takes a fleet

32:52

that smashes up Pompey's and relying

32:54

on Egypt's support, Pompey comes to

32:56

Alexandria to find refuge because Egypt

32:58

is the kind of go-to. If

33:01

you're trying to resist to anybody, then

33:03

Egypt offers a potential for troops, money,

33:05

funding and political support. And

33:07

I think what happens next is a really

33:10

fascinating insight into the cultural differences

33:12

between Egypt and Rome because

33:14

Pompey goes to Alexandria seeking

33:16

refuge and support in his

33:18

battle against Julius Caesar. But

33:21

when he arrives and he leaves his wife and

33:23

his family on board his flagship and he gets

33:25

on a small boat to the shore at Alexandria

33:28

and he is preparing to make

33:30

a speech to announce his arrival

33:32

and his desire to seek refuge.

33:35

And yet when he arrives in Alexandria, the

33:37

young Ptolemy, the brother of Cleopatra, who's

33:39

currently in charge and his advisors who

33:41

have really been behind his power grab,

33:44

decides that they can ingratiate themselves

33:46

with Caesar by beheading Pompey and

33:49

that's exactly what they do. Pompey

33:51

arrives, he's here to make a nice speech and

33:54

Ptolemy, the young king, has him

33:56

stabbed in the back and then

33:58

the story goes. that his veil

34:00

was torn off, uncovering the

34:03

venerable face of the dying Pompey, and

34:05

then they began to hack off his head while the

34:07

face still bore marks of life. The

34:10

question will be how is Julius Caesar going

34:12

to react when he arrived in Alexandria four

34:14

days later with ten warships and

34:16

thousands of men. Is this an

34:19

opportunity for Ptolemy to say to Julius Caesar,

34:21

I've done you a favour, now it's time

34:23

for you to help me in Egypt. Second

34:30

of October, 48 BC, Alexandria.

34:34

Gaius Julius Caesar runs a hand

34:37

over his sweating scalp. He's

34:39

dreamed of coming to Alexandria since he was a

34:41

boy, but in none of

34:44

those dreams did he reckon with such an

34:46

unmerciful son. Stepping from the

34:48

warships gangway, he feels the sounds and

34:50

smells of the city crash over. He

34:53

sees market stalls groaning with

34:55

merchandise, fabrics, stone and glassware.

34:58

The air is heavy with a sense of

35:00

spices and incense. Caesar

35:03

squints into the distance. Somewhere

35:06

in the gleaming limestone and marble

35:08

city is the tomb of his

35:10

hero, Alexander. But,

35:13

he reminds himself, that pilgrimage must

35:15

wait. He's here, in pursuit

35:17

of Ponce, who sit through

35:19

his grasp after their showdown in Pharsas.

35:22

After years of civil war, Caesar will

35:25

finally bring their conflict to an end. Returning,

35:29

he sees a royal delegation approaching. At

35:32

the head of the procession, a man decked

35:34

gold to nits him, glittering chains

35:36

dangling from his thick neck. My

35:40

Lord Caesar, I am Theodotus. King

35:42

Ptolemy apologises for his absence. He

35:46

hands Caesar a silver ring. Its

35:48

emblem is a lion carrying a sword.

35:52

Caesar feels a jolt of adrenaline pass

35:54

through him. It's Pompey's ring.

35:58

In An urgent voice, he demands, how did you come to the. By

36:00

this the auditors smiles justice

36:02

to soldier holding a wooden

36:05

box. The kings

36:07

hopes you'll be pleased by this

36:09

token of his fidelity. As

36:12

the lid slides off season death

36:14

of such as it is for

36:16

it. Then horror,

36:19

he gazes upon the mutilated countenance

36:21

of is one time. Puppies

36:25

expressionless eyes stared like.

36:28

The heads waxing Skyn moved the pilot

36:30

in the heat. He

36:33

feels a wave of emotion burst

36:35

through him tears. Prick is widely

36:37

nice for soldier death and but

36:39

is the highest honor. Pompey

36:42

may be this enemy, but this

36:44

violation will not go unpunished. He

36:47

fixes theaters for a birdie. Glad

36:49

his voice booms read the Harbor

36:51

You dare to say a son

36:54

of Rome, those responsible for this

36:56

outrage will feel ceases. Roth. It's.

37:03

A very in officers start to.

37:05

The relationship and I really do

37:07

think it's a misunderstanding a Roman

37:09

felt so much is see their

37:11

and Pompey were. Fighting a war

37:13

against each other That doesn't mean

37:15

that what the Romans regarded as.

37:17

As an inferior civilization

37:19

has. The right to it's

37:21

not just kill Pompey, but in

37:24

the most undignified way possible. So

37:26

I think it speaks to the

37:28

strategic say, the air of those

37:31

around and Ptolemy to understand how

37:33

to deal with rhyme. And

37:36

that's something that's relevant, because I

37:38

think it's something that Cleopatra has

37:40

an instinctive understanding of. She's much

37:42

more culturally and emotionally intelligent about

37:45

how See depicts herself and navigates

37:47

these powerful. Very mad men do. You might

37:49

well be right. I probably feel a bit more

37:51

generous towards the Egyptians. Tried to work out what

37:53

they should do and. By. harboring

37:56

pompey and getting season to come after

37:58

them fatal also be issued with ultimatums

38:00

and possibly end up in the same

38:02

place anyway. I think that the difficulty

38:05

because of the way that Pompey's treated

38:07

is it gives Rome a story and

38:09

the narrative is that the Egyptians have

38:12

disgraced us and disgraced themselves by humiliating

38:14

Pompey and treating him in this way.

38:16

And that kind of opens

38:18

up political opportunities for Caesar too. I

38:21

mean, he takes Pompey's head very civilly

38:23

and counts it back to Pompey's wife.

38:26

He's buried in Rome and is treated with

38:28

dignity. Caesar then marches to the

38:30

royal palace and summons Ptolemy to come and see

38:33

him. And I think it's

38:35

just the search for a story is what

38:37

Rome is after because if you can carve

38:39

open opportunities that can explain why we're now

38:41

going to take the next step, why

38:43

we need to do more conscription, why we need to

38:45

have more military budgets, then that's part

38:47

of the story too. And what the Romans are

38:49

really good at is working out what that story

38:51

is. And that's why we have all these histories

38:53

that spin things against Cleopatra. So, look,

38:56

you might be right that Cleopatra would have made smarter,

38:58

better decisions. I'm not quite sure what those would have

39:00

been, apart from to say to Pompey that he couldn't land

39:02

and had to go and find sanctuary

39:04

somewhere else. But it speaks, I

39:06

think, to a challenge of how

39:08

well Cleopatra is going to be able to

39:10

play her cards if, in fact, she rises

39:12

to the top. That's next time on

39:15

Legacy, when we'll also see just how

39:17

the young Cleopatra works her magic from

39:19

the bristle of sin. Follow

39:46

Legacy on the Wondery app, Amazon Music, or

39:48

wherever you get your podcasts. You

39:50

can binge seasons early and ad-free right now

39:52

by joining Wondery Plus in the Wondery app

39:54

or on Apple podcasts. Before you

39:57

go, tell us about yourself by completing a short

39:59

survey at Wondery. From

40:07

Wondering Goldhanger, this is the first episode

40:09

in our series about Cleopatra. A

40:12

quick note about our dialogue. We can't know

40:14

everything that was said or done behind closed

40:16

doors, particularly when we go far back in

40:18

history. But our scenes are written

40:21

using the best available sources, so

40:23

even if a scene or conversation

40:25

has been recreated for dramatic effect,

40:27

it's still based on biographical research.

40:29

We've used many sources for

40:32

this series, including Plutarch, Thasios

40:34

Theo, Alberta Angela's book Cleopatra,

40:37

the Queen who challenged Rome and conquered eternity,

40:40

Cleopatra, A Life by Stacy

40:42

Schiff, and Rubicon, the

40:44

triumph and tragedy of the Roman

40:46

Republic by Tom Holland. The calendar in

40:48

Cleopatra and ancient Rome's Egypt is unlike

40:50

the Gregorian calendar that we use today,

40:53

but we've converted dates and times for

40:55

ease. Legacy is hosted

40:57

by me, Efra Hirsch. And me, Peter

40:59

Frankapan. Scene writing

41:01

by Jack McKay. For Goldhanger,

41:04

our series producers are Kate Taylor

41:06

and Anushka Lewis. Our production

41:08

managers are Izzy Reed and Alex

41:10

Hack-Roberts. The executive producers

41:12

are Tony Pastor and Jack Davenport.

41:15

Legacy is sound engineered by Phil Brown.

41:17

Our sound designer is Joe Richardson. Music

41:20

supervision is Scott Velasquez for Frist and Sync.

41:23

Our producer for Wondering is Emanuela Quenote-Francis,

41:25

and our managing producer is Rachel Sipley.

41:28

Our producer for Wondering are Estelle

41:30

Doyle, Jessica Ratburn and Marshall Newey.