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our website for more details. I

0:56

want to get your take, Cara Brieven-Ignifilo, if

0:58

you think that is a violation of

1:00

the gag order and the import

1:02

on the fact that Donald Trump's

1:04

already been found in contempt, in

1:06

criminal contempt, in the Manhattan case,

1:08

if that's going to impact other

1:11

gag order violations in other jurisdictions. Of

1:14

course, we will recap all

1:16

of the highlights, lowlights, and Donald

1:18

Trump whining about being cold each

1:20

and every day of

1:23

the Manhattan criminal trial thus far with, I

1:26

think the two major witnesses to

1:28

testify are David Pecker and Keith

1:30

Davidson. We'll break down

1:32

everything that's taken place up until this

1:34

point as that

1:36

trial proceeds and as Donald Trump whines

1:39

that he has to sit there and

1:41

it's taking too long, but also that

1:43

it is moving too fast. Nothing

1:46

that he says really makes all that much

1:48

sense. Also, I think that it's worth talking

1:50

about the fact that it is now May

1:52

1 and Judge

1:54

Eileen Cannon in the Mar-a-Lago

1:56

document case has not

1:58

moved the trial. date. She

2:01

still has trial scheduled for May

2:03

20th. There was a hearing back

2:05

on March 1st where

2:08

special counsel Jack Smith suggested

2:10

that trial be moved to

2:12

July because Judge Cannon had

2:15

not set basic deadlines in

2:17

a classified document case. Donald

2:19

Trump requested sometime late in

2:22

2025. Judge

2:24

Cannon, as we previously reported, sounded

2:26

very sympathetic to a late 2025

2:30

date. She told special counsel Jack

2:32

Smith that his proposal was unrealistic

2:34

yet here we are May 1st

2:36

after that hearing March 1st

2:38

and the trial date has not

2:40

been moved. How strange is

2:43

that? We'll talk about that and

2:45

more here on Legal AF. This

2:47

is the midweek edition. I'm

2:50

filling in for Michael Popak,

2:52

Karen Friedman-Ignifilo. It's been a

2:54

real honor to be

2:56

able to do the

2:59

morning summations, the evening summations

3:01

with you describing everything that's

3:03

happening in that criminal trial.

3:06

I think

3:08

that the coverage that you've provided

3:10

here, your leadership here at the

3:12

Midas Touch Network, it's unprecedented. It

3:15

meets the moment and we're so

3:17

grateful for you. Thank you for everything

3:19

you're doing, Eric. Hi,

3:22

Ben. So good to do this with

3:24

you on a Wednesday. I'm usually just

3:26

me and Popak. But I'm so glad

3:28

that we are able to do this

3:30

twice a day, every day, just to

3:32

talk about this historic trial that's going

3:35

on in my old office. Here we

3:37

are. We've been with Midas Touch

3:40

now for how long? Three years,

3:42

three plus years. Lo and behold,

3:44

the case that nobody wanted, the case

3:46

that everybody thought why this case, is

3:48

turning out to be kind

3:51

of a blockbuster case. Certainly

3:53

much more serious than anybody

3:55

realized that, I think, at

3:58

the time they kept saying, oh, it's just too bad. He

4:00

paid off a porn star. No, he didn't. He

4:02

stole an election. That's what he

4:04

did. He actually succeeded in stealing the

4:06

election because he was able to suppress

4:08

this information. So it's just

4:10

great that we are able to comment and

4:12

have the time that we have on

4:15

this great network to tell people

4:17

what's really happening in the

4:20

courtroom. Because as you know, it's not videotaped.

4:23

It's not, I should say broadcast. It's not

4:25

video or audio broadcast. And

4:27

so all people see is

4:29

what Donald Trump talks about when he

4:31

leaves the courtroom and

4:34

whines about how cold it is

4:37

and talks about things that go

4:39

on in the courtroom. But

4:42

this way, because we are able to do

4:44

this, we can tell people facts and just

4:46

give them the information about what's been going

4:48

on. Karen, one of

4:50

our slogans here at the Midas Touch

4:52

Network is truth is golden. Another one

4:55

is meet the moment, to

4:57

build the infrastructure, to build a team,

5:00

to meet these pivotal moments right

5:02

now and to be a difference

5:05

maker in how we report. Speaking

5:07

about meeting the moment, you

5:09

worked at the Manhattan District Attorney's office

5:12

for nearly 30 years. You

5:14

were the number two at that

5:16

office, at times you even served

5:18

as the acting Manhattan District Attorney.

5:20

Do you feel as we are

5:22

in week three, that

5:25

the prosecution team from the

5:27

Manhattan District Attorney's office, that they are

5:29

currently meeting the moment right now, if

5:31

you were to judge them? Absolutely.

5:34

And the thing is, like

5:37

I said, everybody was just really

5:40

complaining about this case and it's not that serious

5:42

and why is this one going and why this

5:44

case? And there's a

5:46

guy who's been, who wrote

5:50

a New York Times piece, Judge

5:52

Sugarman, who really poo

5:54

poos this case and he's been debating

5:57

people, he's been debating people

5:59

on, I think, as NBC and

6:01

other areas about why this

6:03

case and that this

6:06

case isn't very serious. But,

6:09

you know, I really disagree with his

6:11

premise. I disagree with everything he says

6:13

about it. And I think

6:15

this, I think it just goes to show

6:17

it's kind of the difference between state court

6:19

and federal court. And I

6:22

think if you're used to being a

6:24

Fed, if you're used to being a

6:26

federal prosecutor, you're used to things being

6:28

a certain way, being a

6:30

certain seriousness, et cetera. And

6:33

I think that there's really this

6:35

kind of elitism,

6:37

frankly, that's

6:39

anti-state court and state

6:42

prosecutors. And of

6:45

course, since I spent my entire career as

6:47

a state court prosecutor, never was a Fed,

6:49

I just see it very

6:51

differently. And this particular case

6:53

that the Manhattan DA's office

6:55

is bringing, they, from day

6:58

one, if you read

7:00

the indictment that they also filed

7:02

a statement of facts, from day

7:04

one, they have said this is

7:06

a case about election interference. I

7:08

think others liked to call it in

7:10

shorthand, oh, it's just a hush money case.

7:12

Oh, it's just a porn star. Oh, he

7:15

cheated on his wife. Who cares? Oh, he

7:17

falsified some records. What's the big deal? But

7:21

again, if you're used to practicing in state

7:23

court where the average

7:25

Joe gets prosecuted for

7:28

falsifying business records every single

7:30

day, this case is really

7:33

just like those cases. Nobody's

7:35

above the law in New York. This is

7:37

a statute that's enforced all the time. And

7:40

when you look at the purpose behind why

7:42

Donald Trump did it, and that's the evidence

7:44

that I can't wait for us to

7:46

dig into and talk about, about what's going on at

7:49

the trial, we see that the

7:51

whole reason they did it was to hide

7:53

this payment, Or

7:57

these payments, I should say, that they were paying

7:59

off to... Mcdougall to denounce The

8:01

Judean and to ah Stephanie

8:03

Clifford his also known as

8:05

Stormy Daniels in order to

8:07

hide this information from the

8:09

electorate. And you know, back

8:11

then it was very different.

8:13

In Twenty Sixteen, it was

8:15

very. Different than it is to they were were

8:18

just use to Donald Trump. And

8:20

it doesn't really seem to be

8:22

does desensitized as a country to

8:25

his behavior, his language, and ah

8:27

and the things that he doesn't

8:29

says but but back then he

8:32

was very. Very concerned about this

8:34

information getting out and they hid

8:36

this from the electorate's and ah

8:38

as we talked about many times

8:40

and and and. Is widely known

8:43

now. I Donald Trump won the

8:45

election by three swing states and

8:47

eighty thousand votes at the teeny

8:49

number mean we we get more

8:51

than a me. Think about it,

8:53

a fan We we sometimes have

8:56

eighty thousand votes or eighty thousand

8:58

people have watched legal asks at

9:00

the end of an hour. right?

9:02

I mean, it's it's crazy that that's

9:05

how. that's how few people. Swung.

9:07

The whole election in Odd in Twenty

9:09

Six Team and what is this is

9:11

what made the difference. The fact that

9:14

he suppress this information in some ways.

9:16

This makes it more. Serious than the

9:18

January Six case. Because they're at

9:20

least hence ended up doing the

9:22

right thing and he was didn't

9:24

succeed and stealing a second election.

9:26

Ah, so I'm not saying it's

9:28

more important, but it's certainly as

9:30

importance. It's certainly a typical of

9:32

the Manhattan Da's office to meet

9:34

the moment as you say and

9:36

to do things that are are

9:39

really important. And so I'm beyond

9:41

proud. That my old office is

9:43

doing this case and that Alvin

9:45

Bragg, the Manhattan Da's carrying on

9:47

the tradition of the Manhattan Da's

9:49

Office, which is always been a

9:51

leader in all areas of criminal

9:53

justice. So. There was

9:55

no trial today tomorrow

9:57

morning on Thursday, right?

10:00

In early I think the first

10:02

thing that will be taking place

10:04

and just most on told the

10:07

party's be ready. We will be

10:09

hearing oral argument on the people's

10:11

motion or for a further contempt

10:14

Finding Criminal Contempt against Donald Trump.

10:16

In the last day of trial

10:19

Donald Trump or was found to

10:21

have a been in violation of

10:23

the gag order he was held

10:26

in criminal Contempt. Justice Marshawn indicated

10:28

in that order. That he

10:30

would if he had the

10:32

authority under New York law

10:35

which the financial penalty for

10:37

criminal contempt at one thousand

10:39

dollars but machines that I

10:41

would consider. Close. To

10:43

one hundred and fifty thousand

10:45

dollars or more if I

10:47

was so empowered. but I

10:50

am not. And then Justice

10:52

Marshawn also warned that the

10:54

future violations could be met

10:56

with in incarcerate Tory incarceration

10:59

as a punishment and penalty.

11:01

Although these statements that are

11:03

his subject of this next

11:05

contempt order hearing occurred before

11:08

that warning or was actually

11:10

made, but something happened karen

11:12

earlier. Today in Wisconsin on

11:15

Donald Trump's day off. He

11:17

went to Wisconsin to campaign. He gave

11:19

what he refers to as the speech

11:22

although to me these are just like.

11:24

Hate. Rallies in the rantings

11:26

and ratings of Bit of a

11:29

Lunatic I'm In During this speech

11:31

that he gave. Donald. trump

11:33

made statements about cassidy hutchinson who is

11:36

a witness in the washington d c

11:38

federal criminal case where there is a

11:40

gag order in that case i want

11:42

to play it and i want to

11:45

read for you the gag order and

11:47

i want to get your take if

11:49

you think that was a violation of

11:52

the gag order that's in place and

11:54

if there will be additional ramifications now

11:56

that trump's already been found to be

11:59

in criminal content and got

12:01

that warning. To be clear, Cassidy

12:03

Hutchinson is not a witness in

12:05

the Manhattan case. She's a witness

12:07

in the Washington DC federal criminal

12:09

case, but Jack

12:11

Smith could use Justice

12:13

Murchand's warning of incarceration

12:15

and show that Donald

12:17

Trump is aware that that's

12:19

a possible penalty. So first let me show

12:22

you what Donald Trump said in Wisconsin. Let's

12:24

play this clip first. Instead, baby,

12:26

I want to go down. These people are

12:28

crazy. And then I think you changed your

12:31

testimony. You heard that because the people testified

12:33

that none of this stuff happened. But

12:36

a friend of mine said, you shouldn't fight

12:38

that because I gained such respect.

12:40

I didn't know that you were that strong and that tough,

12:42

that you would take on a black

12:45

belt in karate or whatever the hell he was.

12:47

A very tough guy. I can tell you that

12:49

there were muscles all over the place on his ears,

12:51

on his neck. If

12:53

I grabbed him around the neck, I'm not even sure he'd feel

12:55

it. He might not feel it. No,

12:59

these people are crazy. So

13:02

calling a witness, Cassidy Hutchinson, crazy

13:04

in front of a crowd like

13:06

that. Of course, she's anticipated to

13:09

testify in the Washington DC federal

13:11

criminal case. She testified before the

13:13

January 6th committee and her testimony

13:16

in the Washington DC criminal case would

13:18

likely be consistent with what she told

13:21

the January 6th committee. And here's what

13:23

Donald Trump is attacking her for saying.

13:25

Let's play this clip. Once

13:27

the president had gotten into the

13:30

vehicle with Bobby, he thought

13:32

that they were going up to the Capitol. And

13:34

when Bobby had relayed to him, we're not,

13:36

you don't have the assets to do it. It's

13:38

not secure. We're going back to the

13:40

West Wing. The president

13:43

had very strong,

13:45

very angry response to that.

13:47

Tony described

13:50

him as being irate. The

13:54

president said something to the effect of, I'm the

13:57

effing president, take me up to the

13:59

Capitol now. To

14:01

which Bobby responded, sir, we

14:04

have to go back to the West Wing. The

14:07

President reached up towards

14:09

the front of the vehicle to grab at the steering

14:11

wheel. Mr.

14:14

Engel grabbed his arm, said,

14:17

sir, you need to take your hand off the steering wheel.

14:20

We're going back to the West Wing. We're

14:22

not going to the Capitol. Mr.

14:26

Trump then used his free hand to

14:28

lunge towards Bobby Engel. And when

14:30

Mr. Renato had recounted this story to me,

14:32

he had motion towards his clavicles. And

14:37

here is the gag order

14:39

in the DC case as affirmed,

14:41

Karen, by the DC Circuit Court

14:44

of Appeals, largely on December

14:46

8th, 2023. Specifically,

14:49

the order, the gag order, is affirmed

14:52

to the extent it prohibits all parties

14:54

and their counsel from making

14:56

or directing others to make public statements

14:59

about known or reasonably foreseeable

15:01

witnesses concerning their potential participation

15:03

in the investigation in or

15:06

in this criminal proceeding. And

15:08

as that's going on, you

15:10

have Donald Trump's lawyer, Alina

15:12

Haber, was out there posting

15:14

videos of herself jumping into

15:16

ball pits. I'm not sure if you've seen

15:18

this at all, Karen. This is where

15:21

she makes video tapes. That's Donald Trump's lawyer

15:23

right there and having a good old time

15:25

while this is taking place. Karen, you think

15:27

this is a gag order violation? What's what's

15:30

going on? Yeah, I think

15:32

so. I mean, it's if it's

15:34

clear that he's talking about Cassidy

15:36

Hutchinson and her testimony, I

15:39

do think it's a violation because,

15:42

look, Judge Chutkin

15:44

specifically said, although that case

15:46

is on pause, right,

15:48

we know it's on pause, she

15:51

said the conditions of bail and

15:53

the conditions of release still apply.

15:56

So And the gag order is is

15:58

part of that. She Said her ability to do that. The

16:00

the kind of manage the case

16:02

and and control the case still

16:04

applies. He can't be trump can

16:06

he required to work on the

16:08

case but the rest is still

16:10

there in place. So things like

16:12

things like the the. That. They

16:14

can't share the of the protective

16:17

order on the discovery, in other,

16:19

the gag order, the bail conditions,

16:21

all that stuff still stands and

16:24

so it it's me if it's

16:26

clear that that's who he's talking

16:28

about, If he's talking about Cassidy

16:31

Hutchinson and did he? Did he

16:33

mention. Her name or did he

16:35

just described that? I was. I was.

16:37

I'm sorry, but I was so transfixed

16:39

by Ah. he seems to have changed

16:42

colors. He is a spray tan

16:44

is is is gotten to be quite.

16:47

Quite. Dark and so I was

16:49

focusing on that. I apologize, I'm

16:51

and his voice is really high

16:54

so. I. Just I don't I found

16:56

it very distracting so I didn't

16:58

notice if he mentioned her by

17:00

name, may refer to her by

17:02

saying these people you mentioned Donald

17:04

Trump's appearance also like in court

17:06

of abuse. Been seeing him leaving

17:08

the court room looking exasperated. Of

17:10

course they're been reports of him

17:13

mom. Who. Knows falling asleep constantly

17:15

in the court room. but damn you

17:17

know you know that's him there there.

17:19

there were these photos of him with

17:21

like these like blowfish. kind of cheap.

17:23

some. That. There's there's another photo

17:25

of him right there, but I don't think

17:27

he said the named specifically, but he clearly

17:30

was referencing. You know, he was clearly referencing

17:32

a with year is a foreigner preserve. He

17:34

was refers referencing hurry with also

17:36

referencing the Secret Service H and

17:38

I believe right, that's that he

17:40

is alleged to have graph. In of.

17:44

Grabbed. So I think you could

17:46

argue that he is referencing them.

17:48

The Key: He does this thing.

17:51

Constantly. Where he walks up to the line

17:53

and stepped on it right? He refuses to.

17:55

He doesn't crock quite cross the line. It

17:57

sounds like when a repost and stuff for

17:59

the Gap. Order. It's like launches

18:01

reposting. You know our A I

18:03

say it reminds. Me of a

18:05

toddler who he saida don't want the

18:07

don't leave your room you cannot leave

18:10

your room and the toddler walks up

18:12

to the door and like puts his

18:14

foot in a rape and that in

18:16

that and door jamb and then like

18:18

moves his toe forward email. it's kinda

18:20

like and stairs that you when you

18:22

gonna do and that's a Donald Trump

18:25

constantly does right Well well in New

18:27

York a Judge Marshawn specifically said by

18:29

the way buddy when you repost things

18:31

that. Is a violation of the a

18:33

gag order just to be clear, but

18:35

here, he's not naming anybody. So I

18:37

added a circus. I didn't hear her

18:39

name so I'm so glad it wasn't

18:41

just that I was distracted by his

18:43

strange appearance and his we're gestures and

18:45

his unusually high voice. And

18:48

so I was. I was, you

18:51

know, but but this is clearly

18:53

referencing both Cassidy has Sunset Hutchinson

18:55

as well as the Secret Service.

18:57

Agents. I think it stinks, has shut

19:00

in, is not gonna like it. Yeah.

19:02

You know, hear the photos I was

19:04

referencing of Trump as he's been leaving

19:06

the court room. You know he's also

19:08

been talking about how cold is an

19:11

icebox. Their make me go back into

19:13

this icebox. I'm freezing. It's so cold

19:15

in there are completely up to sit

19:17

in there it's so cold. There was

19:19

also some reporting as well from my

19:21

a number of out with How Donna

19:23

how Donald Trump's lawyers are trying to

19:25

keep him awake. By. Giving him

19:27

things to like distract himself with does

19:30

he keeps falling asleep human and papers

19:32

to read, printing out articles that the

19:34

think you will likes to so he

19:36

doesn't constantly fall asleep there you know

19:38

And everything they do was projection and

19:40

confession when they call sleepy Joe sleep

19:42

Joe. I mean I've never seen somebody

19:44

so weak as Donald Trump all the

19:46

sleep like this all the time. But

19:48

carrots, as much as people wanna hear

19:50

me talk about Donald Trump falling asleep

19:52

in Her Wages and the Blowfish Race

19:54

and Alina Hobbit jumping in ball pit.

19:56

I. think that people want to hear your

19:59

analysis of the top witnesses

20:01

how significant you think the

20:04

testimony was from Pekker, Keith

20:06

Davidson, about the C-SPAN archivist

20:08

really kind of backfired on

20:10

Trump for making this

20:12

guy show up. I thought it made

20:14

the presentation even more dramatic when they

20:17

played Trump's clips versus just actually showing

20:19

the clips as would normally take place

20:21

in a criminal case. And one

20:23

of the things that you led all media

20:26

by making clear, and I heard everybody

20:28

talking about it, but you said it

20:31

for the first time, is Donald Trump

20:33

is making this trial last longer by

20:35

not stipulating to basic records and authenticating

20:37

records, and then he's whining about how

20:39

long the case is taking, but he's

20:41

adding time to this by not doing

20:43

the things that happen in all criminal

20:45

cases. I want to hear about that

20:47

and more. Let's take our first quick

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in the descriptions below. We're

24:49

talking about the Trump criminal

24:51

trial in Manhattan for falsification

24:53

of business records

24:55

to interfere with the 2016 election. Every

25:00

day thus far, Donald Trump's walked into

25:02

court. He's whined about how cold the

25:04

courtroom is. Here's the latest example of

25:06

Donald Trump saying that he's forced to

25:08

walk into an ice

25:11

box. Play this clip. An

25:33

interesting thing that I'm just noticing there for the

25:36

first time, Karen, that I didn't. When he talks

25:38

about states that are

25:40

in play, he's talking about states

25:42

as well there that if you were

25:44

to speak to some of the Republican

25:47

spin people, they would say, oh well

25:49

you know Donald Trump's doing well in those

25:52

states. But listen to what he was actually

25:54

saying there and it actually hints at where

25:56

he's nervous about having exposure. If he's nervous

25:58

about those states, He's got major

26:00

issues as well. It was a little

26:03

bit of a tell there, but we'll

26:05

save the politics for other shows here

26:07

on the network. Karen, if you can

26:09

now, we'd love to hear from you.

26:12

Now that we're on week three, we'll

26:14

be starting tomorrow, day 10 of the

26:16

criminal trial. The highlights, the lowlights, the

26:18

surprises, break it all down for us,

26:21

Karen. So

26:23

I wanna start with

26:25

a book that was written

26:27

by my friend, Norm Eisen,

26:30

and it's called Trying Trump. And

26:33

it's a book that he wrote because he

26:35

was putting together a trial binder. And

26:38

a trial binder is what we

26:40

all use when we go to trial.

26:43

And you put together all the relevant documents,

26:45

you put everything in one place because you

26:47

wanna be able to refer

26:49

to it and have everything at your fingertips.

26:51

And it's something that I go to regularly

26:56

to kind of make sense of what everything is

26:58

because it's really confusing, to be honest. There's a

27:00

lot of people, a lot of players, a lot

27:02

of names. And so I

27:05

just wanna give a shout out to this book, Salty,

27:08

I think we have a copy of the book

27:10

cover if you wanna put it up. I

27:13

just wanna give a shout out, there it is, a

27:15

guide to his first election interference

27:17

criminal trial. It's

27:19

really, really, it's really, really

27:21

helpful. It has everything you

27:23

wanna know about it, including

27:25

the legal filings, the facts,

27:27

everything. So for anyone who

27:29

wants to follow this in

27:31

detail, I highly

27:33

recommend this book. And interestingly,

27:36

I've heard from somebody in

27:38

the courtroom who had

27:40

a copy of the book sitting

27:43

next to them because it's a

27:45

good reference, right? It's really good to refer,

27:47

okay, what's this person talking about? What was

27:49

this? What date? It's hard to follow sometimes

27:52

when you look at these trials and

27:54

a court officer said to them, put

27:57

that away. And the person was like, what are

27:59

you talking about? It's just a book

28:01

and they're like, we don't allow political

28:03

material in here. So I thought that

28:05

was really interesting that that was, that's

28:07

what somebody reported about that

28:09

book. Anyway, but the trial

28:12

is very much going in as

28:16

I think better than

28:18

I ever imagined, but certainly exactly

28:20

how the DA's office has planned.

28:23

Let's just remind ourselves what the

28:25

charges are here because it makes

28:27

the evidence extremely important and relevant.

28:30

So the charges are 34 counts of

28:32

falsifying a business record in the first

28:34

degree, which is a class E felony,

28:36

the lowest level felony in New York.

28:39

And it is essentially

28:42

when you make false entries in

28:45

a business record. So that's

28:47

normally a misdemeanor in New York. But

28:49

if you do it with the

28:52

intention to commit a crime, if

28:55

you're either committing a

28:57

crime or concealing a crime or

29:01

aiding the commission of a crime, then

29:03

that bumps it up to a felony. If the reason,

29:05

in other words, if the reason you're falsifying your business

29:07

records just to cover up a crime. So

29:10

that's what makes it a felony and that's what Donald

29:12

Trump is charged with. And so the prosecution

29:14

has said the crime that they were trying

29:17

to conceal that they were committing was election

29:19

fraud, right? It was a violation of both

29:21

New York state election laws and

29:24

federal election laws and state

29:27

and federal tax laws. And

29:29

the specific violation of

29:32

election laws was they didn't wanna declare

29:34

the money that they were spending. Cause

29:36

you do have to declare it if

29:38

you're a political candidate, you have to

29:40

report that you get donations

29:43

and who they're from. And

29:45

there are certain campaign donation limits. And

29:48

it's those limits and those

29:50

things that they didn't wanna report because

29:52

if they reported it, it would reveal

29:55

that Donald Trump had

29:57

these extra marital affairs, okay? So

30:00

that's essentially what it is. The

30:03

crime actually is the cover-up, right? The

30:06

falsifying business records is the cover-up.

30:08

Because he's not charged with the

30:10

crime of election interference, or

30:13

election fraud, or any of

30:16

the election-related crimes. He's charged with

30:18

the cover-up of it. So

30:21

it's this strange kind of hybrid

30:23

New York charge. And

30:25

that is what this is all about. So

30:31

that gets us to the

30:33

witnesses. And the most important

30:35

witness so far, and maybe

30:37

the most important witness in

30:39

the case, to be honest,

30:42

was David Pecker.

30:44

And Pecker testified all

30:48

about this relationship between

30:51

AMI, the National Enquirer's

30:53

parent company, and Donald

30:56

Trump. And that he

30:58

is the one who sets the table.

31:00

That look, we engaged in Catch

31:03

and Kill. We engaged in this

31:05

buying stories and never

31:07

publishing them. If they

31:09

helped Donald Trump, or

31:12

doing things to help him, or also

31:15

doing things for celebrities, et cetera. But

31:18

it was always to help the bottom

31:20

line of the National Enquirer, right? They

31:22

would buy stories. It was checkbook journalism.

31:24

It was this really kind of seedy

31:28

underbelly of news.

31:31

And I put this in quotes, because I don't know

31:33

if you want to call it news, but of

31:36

how that tabloid journalism

31:38

works. And it was

31:40

very revealing, I think. But what was

31:42

so interesting is Pecker could

31:44

not have been clearer about

31:47

what the purpose of

31:49

the three things that

31:52

are charged, that are alleged here,

31:55

the doorman, Karen McDougall, and Stormy

31:57

Daniels. That

32:00

that was about the election and it was

32:02

different and and I had no

32:05

idea I think a lot of people didn't

32:07

realize that David pecker would be so critical

32:09

and such a critical witness in

32:11

this In this

32:13

trial and he held up on his own

32:15

and he was a great witness because he

32:17

very much was like Donald Trump was my

32:19

mentor. He was my friend Clear.

32:22

He still had affection for him, but

32:24

he's I'm here to tell the truth.

32:26

I'm just telling you how it happened and

32:29

so I thought that was really compelling but

32:31

I want to kind of go over the

32:33

chronology of Events

32:36

with people because they are hard to

32:38

follow And it kind

32:40

of comes from this book that that

32:42

I was talking about that Norm Eisen has

32:45

published But I just want to

32:47

talk about a few highlights of the chronology

32:49

because it really Then

32:51

will explain why these witnesses were

32:53

so critical and so excellent in my opinion. So

32:56

in 2004 this goes all

32:59

the way back to Okay,

33:03

as far back as that American

33:05

Media Inc. Ami, which was the

33:07

parent company to the National Enquirer They

33:10

were already Turning away stories and tips that

33:13

could paint Donald Trump in a bad light

33:15

and that had to do with the friendship

33:17

that they Had with David pecker and the

33:20

fact that Trump

33:22

was feeding pecker good stories that

33:24

was boosting their Their

33:27

sales right and so that went back

33:29

that dated back a long time ago

33:31

They were such close friends that he

33:33

even that pecker even went to Trump

33:35

and Melania's wedding in 2005

33:38

okay, and And

33:42

then Michael Cohen didn't start working there until

33:44

2007 So these

33:46

things were going on this relationship

33:48

existed even before Michael Cohen again

33:50

very significant because Michael Cohen is

33:53

kind of a difficult Witness

33:55

for the prosecution that the prosecution

34:00

prosecutors talked about in their opening that

34:02

he's made some mistakes, that he has he's

34:05

served time and that he

34:07

also has admitted to lying under

34:10

oath or he's been charged and

34:12

convicted of lying under oath. So

34:14

that's tricky for a prosecutor

34:16

who you know, it's

34:19

the cross examination is sort

34:21

of obvious what they're going to say about

34:23

him and the summations. So

34:25

to the extent that they can corroborate

34:27

everything that he says and make it

34:29

so it doesn't depend on him necessarily,

34:32

but there's so much corroboration, that's what

34:34

the prosecutors are trying to do. And

34:36

so the fact that this relationship went back

34:38

so far with David

34:41

Pecker and predated Michael Cohen, I thought

34:43

was was kind of a critical fact.

34:46

It also, I don't know if I

34:49

truly appreciated that in 2005

34:51

is when the Access Hollywood

34:54

tape was actually filmed. Okay,

34:56

because it didn't come out

34:58

until 2016. But

35:01

it was a recording that happened

35:03

in 2005 where Trump identified some

35:05

woman through a bus window and then

35:08

he made the famous, you know,

35:10

I'm automatically attracted to beautiful women. I just

35:12

start kissing them. It's like a magnet, just

35:14

kiss. I don't even wait. And when you're

35:16

a star, they let you do it. You

35:18

can do anything. Grab them by the P

35:20

word. Okay. So that's what

35:22

they caught on the hot mic. So

35:25

then in June of

35:27

2006, that's when Karen

35:30

McDougall and Donald Trump meet

35:33

and when they start their affair.

35:35

Okay, so that again predated

35:37

Michael Cohen was two years

35:40

or a year and a half or so after he married

35:43

Melania. And

35:46

I believe she was

35:48

pregnant with with

35:50

their child. And then

35:53

they go on and they have dates about

35:55

this when their first date was at the

35:57

Beverly Hills Hotel. And.

36:00

And in July of 2006, okay, that was June, the

36:03

next month in July of 2006, that's

36:06

when Stephanie Clifford, also known as

36:08

Stormy Daniels, she met Trump

36:11

at a celebrity golf tournament in Lake

36:13

Tahoe, which is located half in California,

36:15

half in Nevada. And

36:18

that's when they had sex in his hotel

36:20

room, right? So just

36:22

married Melania, right? She's

36:25

on her right away pretty much

36:27

with Playboy Model. And then she's

36:29

on the Playboy Model, who he's having a relationship

36:32

with with Stormy Daniels. So this is all back

36:34

10 years before the

36:37

election, okay? Then

36:39

in 2007, Michael Cohen starts working

36:41

there. And

36:44

at various times throughout the next few

36:47

years, there

36:50

are times that these

36:52

women try to sell these stories. And

36:56

mostly Stephanie Clifford actually was trying to

36:58

sell her story, but there was no

37:00

market for it, okay? And

37:02

it wasn't until later when

37:04

a woman tweeted something out

37:13

about the fact that Karen

37:16

McDougall was having an affair with

37:21

Donald Trump, that this started to come

37:23

out. And that coincided at

37:26

the time of this election, okay?

37:29

And so that's what David Pecker was talking about

37:31

was, look, there were women trying to shop stories

37:33

or people doing stuff. We just, you know, we

37:36

weren't interested back then. There was no market for

37:38

it. And, you

37:40

know, yes, we caught and killed stories,

37:42

but we weren't really doing any of

37:44

that. So like I said, like 10

37:47

years go by, there's rumors, there's,

37:49

you know, there's rumors coming

37:52

out that these affairs happen,

37:54

there's lawsuits, you know, this

37:57

information is bubbling up. And

37:59

so, you know, Again, if Donald Trump

38:01

was concerned about Melania and

38:04

his family finding out, he would have paid them

38:06

off then, right? In 2010, 2011, but there was

38:08

no market for it and

38:12

he wasn't running and so he didn't

38:14

care. So it wasn't to protect his

38:16

family. And again, that all came out

38:18

at the trial through David Pecker. And

38:20

that's, to me, that's just astounding, right?

38:23

That it's so clearly about the

38:25

election. And so then

38:27

in March of 2015, Trump

38:30

formed his exploratory presidential committee

38:32

and in June of 2015, he

38:35

announced his bid for the

38:37

presidency. And in

38:39

August of 2015, Pecker

38:41

talked about a meeting that

38:44

Trump, Michael Cohen and

38:46

David Pecker had at Trump Tower

38:48

in Manhattan. And this

38:51

was basically saying that this

38:54

is where, this is where the conspiracy

38:56

was formed, okay? The

38:58

criminal conspiracy to get

39:01

together and to

39:04

catch and kill stories to help the

39:06

campaign, okay? So there's

39:08

no doubt this was about the campaign. Michael

39:11

Cohen's gonna testify about it, I assume, but

39:13

this is what David Pecker said. He was there,

39:15

he was part of this. And

39:18

that, I think that is the thing

39:20

that really, I think, is

39:23

key to making this criminal

39:25

and tying this to the election. And

39:29

then after that, so that was in August

39:31

and in October or November, Pecker learns about

39:33

the doorman, they agreed to pay him $30,000.

39:37

And then as it's, again, the

39:39

time is passing, they

39:45

buy the story and they kill it. And then

39:47

as time is passing and they

39:49

go after that, they

39:52

start learning about these other stories,

39:54

right? Now we're going into 2016. And

39:57

in March of 2016, he wins. seven

40:00

of the

40:03

11 Super Tuesday states. And

40:06

right after that, he gets a

40:08

call about Stephanie Clifford slash

40:10

Stormy Daniels. This is in April

40:12

2016. And

40:15

this is when they are trying to

40:17

see an opportunity that look, now he's

40:19

gonna be the nominee it looks like,

40:22

and maybe now there's a market for my story. And

40:25

that's when things get interesting and

40:28

things start to really heat

40:30

up. And that's so we get

40:32

into, I

40:36

wanna call him Pete Davidson, it wasn't

40:38

Pete Davidson, it was Keith Davidson, who's

40:40

an attorney who represented both

40:43

Karen McDougall and

40:48

Stephanie Clifford slash Stormy Daniels. And

40:51

he starts negotiating with

40:54

an individual who

40:57

we're not gonna hear from Dylan Howard,

41:00

who was the kind of number two for

41:03

David Pecker. And it became

41:05

this negotiation between this attorney

41:07

for the two women Davidson

41:10

and the number two person for

41:12

Pecker Howard, okay? So Davidson

41:14

and Howard begin to negotiate in

41:17

June, in July, and they're negotiating

41:19

these stories and the purchasing

41:21

of these stories. And

41:24

when Davidson was

41:26

testifying, he

41:28

apparently by all accounts of people

41:31

who were in the courtroom, was

41:34

came across as extremely

41:36

credible. And he

41:38

talked about how this was

41:40

absolutely about the election.

41:43

And he talked about how he

41:46

was dealing with Michael Cohen and

41:49

on behalf of Donald Trump, when

41:52

it came to Stephanie Clifford

41:54

and Stormy Daniels and how

41:56

because the national inquirer walked

41:58

away from the... the

42:00

Stephanie Clifford story. They didn't want to

42:03

pay for that for various reasons, including

42:05

the fact that they didn't want to

42:07

be in bed with the porn star, also because

42:10

they had already paid off the

42:12

Karen McDougall, 150,000 and the doorman for I

42:14

think 30,000 and

42:18

Trump wasn't paying them back. And they're like, we're not

42:20

a piggy bank. So this is

42:22

all coming into shape. I

42:25

thought it was really powerful. And I thought he did a

42:27

really good job. He's still on

42:29

the stand. There's still a

42:31

lot more to come. There's gonna be

42:33

cross-examination of him. And

42:36

so I expect that to be able

42:38

to see how that goes, but that's

42:40

where we are, is the prosecution is

42:42

spending a lot of time really

42:45

corroborating Michael

42:48

Cohen's story. And the way you can

42:50

tell, first we didn't know who was

42:52

gonna be next and what witnesses because

42:54

we have a breakdown

42:57

in communications between the parties. The

42:59

prosecution is refusing to give over

43:01

their witness list because Donald Trump was violating

43:03

the gag order and tweeting about them, et

43:06

cetera. And so they weren't gonna tell them

43:08

who's next. And so we had to kind

43:10

of glean from who the witnesses are about

43:12

who's next. And

43:14

you can tell what they're doing.

43:16

First, they set the narrative with

43:19

Pekka, right? And now they're talking

43:21

about kind of what happened with

43:23

the attorney and how this came

43:25

about. And those details and those facts.

43:28

But they're also doing, as you were saying, Ben, the

43:30

financial records, the videotapes, they're putting

43:33

on the record custodian witnesses who

43:36

Trump's lawyers aren't even bother, they're

43:38

not even bothering cross-examining. That's

43:40

how much they're irrelevant. These

43:43

are record custodians. They're not substantive. They're like,

43:45

yeah, I went to the archives, I pulled

43:47

the video and it's

43:49

this date. I mean, it's coming in, whether

43:51

you stipulate or whether you make them call

43:53

a witness. But by making

43:55

the prosecutor call a witness, not only are

43:57

you delaying the case, you're also making... it

44:00

so that the jury, this important evidence that the

44:02

prosecution wants to show, they're going to show it

44:04

now multiple times. Because now they're going to

44:06

show it when the witness puts it into evidence, but then you're

44:08

going to use it in the narrative of your story that you

44:11

were going to use it in at

44:13

some later point. So now you're like, now

44:16

it's like getting drilled into,

44:18

getting drilled into the jury's mind. I

44:21

mean, it was always the defense that wanted to

44:23

stipulate. I never wanted to stipulate. I want

44:25

to prove my case as a prosecutor.

44:27

I hated stipulating to things because I

44:30

want the opportunity to prove my case.

44:32

I want witnesses on the stand, and

44:34

I want to be able to use

44:36

the evidence multiple times. And

44:39

so I don't know who they think they're punishing

44:41

besides themselves by doing it this

44:43

way, but it's clear that that's what they're doing.

44:46

Is there going to do that? I don't expect you're

44:48

going to see Michael Cohen for two weeks. That

44:51

would be my guess. Michael

44:53

Cohen told us on the last

44:55

political beatdown as of yesterday

44:57

that he had, as far as he knew,

44:59

he was not, had not been contacted yet.

45:02

He didn't know he was comfortable, at least

45:04

sharing that he did not know when his

45:06

testimony was going to be. So I thought

45:08

that was at least a data point worth

45:11

mentioning. And look, I think that there

45:13

was a lot of missteps, Karen, as

45:16

well with the defense. Because good as

45:18

the prosecution's been, there are some things

45:20

that I would have expected the defense

45:23

to do differently. But I guess when

45:25

Donald Trump's your client, you're constrained

45:27

also by his ego. I

45:29

was surprised the defense bought into the

45:31

narrative. And I can say this now

45:33

because it's already done. They can't

45:36

contradict what they've already said. But

45:38

they put David Pecker on a pedestal

45:40

as though he's like a real credible

45:42

person. He would think that he was

45:44

running like a real major media company

45:46

at the end of it. And

45:49

the defense embraced that versus if I

45:51

was doing the cross-exam for the defense.

45:53

And again, I'm not giving them advice.

45:56

It's done. They've already done it.

45:58

I think I would have gone to Pecker

46:00

and said, hey, look, I'm going to get

46:02

a defense. look years you know you did

46:04

this story on aliens. You do this story

46:07

on big foot. You did a story on

46:09

that but they made it clear that he

46:11

was a very serious and credible journalist. Ah,

46:13

I'm during the cross exam and it and

46:15

it gave credence to something and Donald Trump's

46:18

mind. you know he was. which is why

46:20

Donald Trump was using him for a catcher.

46:22

you know, for a catch and kill. Also,

46:24

they're not authenticating. These. Basic records

46:27

as allowed the archivist to come

46:29

in from Cspan and then they

46:31

don't cross examined him so the

46:33

jury. Is is immersed

46:36

in the drama. They don't fully know

46:38

what's going on other than an archivist

46:40

is coming in, the sea span archivist

46:43

that the defense has no cross or

46:45

rebuttal to it and the prosecution gets

46:47

to play this in a very dramatic

46:50

fashion. I wanna talk more about the

46:52

Cspan Archivist because actually, Karen I thought.

46:55

That was one of the most powerful

46:57

aspects of it was short. But.

46:59

It was so critical I think and

47:01

showing the type of person Donald Trump

47:04

is and we know that the prosecution

47:06

has dozens and dozens of other exhibit

47:08

like that ready to go. Let's take

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our last quick break of the show.

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we'll ask you where you heard about

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them. Please support this show and tell

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them that we sent you. Karen

51:18

with the ad reads, I

51:20

gotta say Karen having your

51:22

breakdowns about this trial has

51:24

been one of the most

51:26

invaluable experiences for me you

51:28

know just as a lawyer. I mean the amount

51:30

of things I learned from you but

51:32

you explain it in a way that everybody

51:34

can understand and you've

51:37

been leading that like what's so incredible

51:39

about your coverage and your leadership here

51:41

is I noticed that whenever

51:43

your analysis leads the coverage of what

51:45

we see and all of the kind

51:47

of major media networks as well and

51:50

I think that's an important role for

51:52

this network to play and to have experts

51:54

like you share this analysis has I think

51:57

been a real game changer in explaining the

51:59

ins and outs. to people of this

52:01

trial. You talked about some of these

52:03

other witnesses who maybe, you know,

52:06

have certainly far lesser roles than pecker

52:08

or Keith Davidson, but like, let

52:10

me tell you why I think the C-SPAN

52:13

archivist was so

52:15

devastating for Donald Trump. C-SPAN

52:17

archivist, he's a doctor, works for

52:19

C-SPAN for however long, um, Dr.

52:22

Browning or routing or something

52:24

shows up and they go

52:27

through the video footage of

52:29

Donald Trump, Trump tried to

52:31

object previously through a pretrial

52:33

motions from Trump's own words

52:36

being used in the trial.

52:39

Um, but here's just, I want everybody to

52:41

kind of visualize this. You have

52:44

some professorial type person

52:46

show up, the jury's

52:48

captivated. They all have

52:50

their notepads, they're taking notes. They've

52:53

heard an opening from the prosecution

52:55

and thus far the prosecution's delivered

52:57

and then they've heard an opening

52:59

from the defense. Don't believe what

53:02

the prosecution's saying. They've seen Donald

53:04

Trump kind of falling asleep. The

53:06

jury's not sure. Um,

53:08

what we know yet, I mean, they've heard

53:11

David pecker and David pecker's talked about the

53:13

catch and kill, but the jury's eager to

53:15

hear. So is Trump just, is

53:17

he denying that he did anything with women?

53:20

Is, is, was he really trying to cover

53:22

it up? We're trying to get in the

53:24

minds. And then this video that C-SPAN has

53:26

from June of 2016 plays,

53:29

this is Donald Trump's mindset

53:31

at the time play. As

53:34

you have seen right now,

53:36

I am being viciously attacked with

53:39

lies and smears. It's

53:42

a phony deal. I

53:45

have no idea who these women are.

53:47

Have no idea. I have no

53:49

idea. And I think you

53:51

all know I have no idea because you understand

53:53

me for a lot of years. Okay.

54:02

When you looked at that horrible woman last

54:04

night, you said, I don't think so. I

54:06

don't think so. Whoever

54:08

she is, wherever she comes

54:11

from, the stories are

54:14

total fiction. They're 100%

54:16

made up. They

54:19

never happened. They never

54:21

would happen. I

54:23

don't think that happened with very many people, but

54:25

they certainly aren't going to happen with me. Just

54:31

think about it. You're in the jury. You

54:34

watch that. A witness shows up. That

54:37

gets authenticated and it's like, man,

54:40

I just felt like that's a mic

54:42

drop moment. Think about other things that

54:45

Donald Trump said that have not been

54:47

introduced yet, but the types of statements

54:50

that he's made about Stormy Daniels

54:52

that could come in in

54:54

the future in this trial, one after another.

54:57

Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.

54:59

I'm not saying these specifically will,

55:01

but statements like this, like

55:04

Donald Trump continuing to

55:06

refer to Stormy Daniels as

55:08

horseface and saying, no

55:10

affair, she's a horseface, no attraction.

55:13

Play this clip. To bring

55:15

charges against me for now

55:18

ancient, no affair story of

55:20

Stormy Horseface Daniels, no attraction,

55:25

no affair. I call it no affair where

55:29

there's no crime anyway. No

55:32

affair, calling her horseface and think about

55:35

what happened in the 2018 period as

55:38

well. What Trump was

55:40

having all of his people like Sarah Huckabee

55:42

Sanders say here, play this clip. This

55:45

is from 2018. Let's play it.

55:47

The president approved of the payment that

55:49

was made in October of 2016 by

55:52

his longtime lawyer and advisor Michael Cohen.

55:54

The president has addressed these

55:56

directly and made very

55:59

well. clear that none of these allegations

56:01

are true. This case has

56:04

already been won in arbitration and anything beyond

56:06

that I would refer you to the President's

56:09

outside counsel. When did the President

56:11

address specifically the cash payment

56:13

that was made in October of 2016?

56:16

The President has denied the allegations against

56:18

him and again this case

56:20

has already been won in arbitration anything beyond

56:22

that I would refer you to outside counsel. Did

56:24

he know about that payment at this time though? I've

56:27

addressed this as far as I can go. Did

56:30

he know about the payment at this time? Not that I'm

56:32

aware of and again anything beyond what I've already

56:34

given you I would refer you to the President's outside

56:36

counsel. Since

56:39

this has become very clear

56:41

this week. Has he talked to Michael Cohen

56:43

about it? I'm sorry? Has he talked to

56:45

Michael Cohen about that this week? I don't

56:47

know. I'm not sure. Karen

56:50

here's the thing it's not

56:52

a Democrat thing a Republican

56:54

thing it's they're a liar. They

56:57

lie and they lie and they

56:59

viciously lie. The only clip the

57:02

jury seen thus far was the

57:04

first one of Donald Trump but

57:06

Karen as you know there

57:09

are dozens and dozens of clips

57:11

of Donald Trump his own

57:13

posts his own statements that are all

57:15

lined up and ready to go when

57:17

the DA is ready for it and

57:19

I think you're gonna have moment after

57:22

moment and the jury's gonna be sitting

57:24

there how could you not detest

57:28

Trump sitting there lying to your

57:30

face like that? I

57:32

mean look you know it's it's that's

57:34

the thing you play a video like

57:36

the one you played where he's denying

57:38

it and the jury doesn't realize the

57:40

significance of it yet because all they

57:43

see is he's denying it but as

57:45

you said there's gonna be piece by

57:47

piece of evidence proving that he did

57:49

know these women for example Rona Graff

57:51

was one of the witnesses who also

57:53

has testified she is I think

57:55

she testified she's worked for the Trump organization for 34 years

57:58

she was his

58:00

executive assistant. She worked

58:03

for him for a long time and

58:05

she had a Rolodex. And

58:08

lo and behold, Stormy Daniels slash

58:10

Stephanie Clifford was in there and so

58:13

was Karen McDougal. And so,

58:15

you know, for him to say he doesn't

58:17

know whoever they are, I mean, that's just

58:19

a lie. He not only knew who they

58:21

were, their information was in his Rolodex. So

58:23

of course he's going to say, well, yeah,

58:26

it turns out they were on Celebrity Apprentice.

58:28

You know, he makes excuses for things or that

58:30

this was about Celebrity Apprentice. I don't know, whatever. But

58:33

you're going to see witness

58:35

after witness testifying about his

58:38

inconsistent statements, things that they're going

58:40

to say are admissions and

58:43

that it's consciousness of guilt, the fact

58:45

that he's denying it and lying and

58:47

changing his story. So, and they're going to

58:49

get to wrap all that up

58:51

information, right? That's what the prosecution is

58:53

going to do. So, you

58:56

know, it's just crazy to me that they

58:58

didn't stipulate to that because again, then the

59:00

jury is going to get to hear it

59:02

over and over and over again. But that's

59:05

how they're handling it. Karen,

59:08

I want to talk briefly about what's going

59:10

on in the Mar-a-Lago case to give everybody

59:12

an update there though. But want

59:14

to get your kind of final word though

59:16

of what do you expect happens the remainder

59:19

of this week in New York? And then

59:21

let's just talk briefly to remind everybody just

59:23

some of these other cases that are happening.

59:26

Yeah. So I just

59:29

want to say two things. Number one, I'll

59:32

answer that question second. Number one,

59:35

you know, last Thursday was just

59:37

a crazy day because we

59:40

were, you know, I was

59:43

on the balcony outside

59:45

of court, you know, in the

59:47

freezing cold, reporting with CNN

59:49

from like nine in the morning

59:51

till one o'clock. I mean, and you

59:53

have Trump coming out whining that it's

59:56

freezing cold in the courtroom and how cold he

59:58

is. And I'm looking at these reporters who

1:00:00

sit there and cover him day in and day

1:00:02

out. They have to have

1:00:05

warming blankets and hand warmers. I mean,

1:00:07

they actually sit in the freezing cold

1:00:09

and wind and rain was blowing sideways

1:00:11

at them. And I'm thinking, what a

1:00:14

whiner. These are people with real jobs

1:00:16

who are out there doing

1:00:18

that. And I was freezing. And

1:00:21

I'm just like, it just felt really, really

1:00:23

whiny. And

1:00:25

you think about all the people whose jobs are

1:00:28

outdoors. The people

1:00:30

who, the construction workers, the people, the

1:00:32

road workers, just all the people who

1:00:34

really do have hard jobs outdoors. And

1:00:36

he's like whining that he's freezing cold sitting

1:00:38

inside a courtroom. But

1:00:41

the reason I bring that up is because that

1:00:44

day, I'll never forget that

1:00:46

day, because I literally was listening

1:00:49

to the oral argument in

1:00:52

front of the United States Supreme Court on presidential

1:00:55

immunity that was being broadcast. And I

1:00:57

wanted to hear it and digest it

1:00:59

and understand it, because obviously we talk

1:01:01

about it and we talk about these

1:01:03

issues. But at the same time,

1:01:05

I didn't wanna miss anything that was going on in

1:01:08

court. So I'm reading all the tweets that

1:01:10

people like Adam Clastel and others are

1:01:13

providing from almost like a transcript

1:01:15

from inside the courtroom. So I'm

1:01:17

listening with one ear and

1:01:20

I'm reading with another and trying to follow

1:01:22

along. And the third thing

1:01:24

that happened that isn't getting as much

1:01:26

reporting, but I just wanna talk

1:01:28

about it every minute that I can, is

1:01:32

the Harvey Weinstein decision came down

1:01:34

and that was overturned. And I

1:01:36

think intentionally dropped during the news

1:01:38

of all of this, because it

1:01:40

was, so

1:01:42

that way it could get buried. Cause

1:01:44

it is outrageous that that case was

1:01:47

reversed. I'm not gonna talk about it in

1:01:49

detail. I'm not gonna go into it. But

1:01:52

the one thing I do wanna just put

1:01:54

a pin in for everybody is the reason

1:01:56

it was reversed is because. Because

1:02:01

the judge, the Court

1:02:03

of Appeals in a split decision ruled

1:02:06

that some of the prior bad acts that

1:02:11

the prosecution used in that case,

1:02:13

the other sexual assault accusations coupled

1:02:18

with the fact that they were going to

1:02:20

be allowed to cross-examine him on other

1:02:22

bad acts essentially deprived

1:02:25

him of his right to a

1:02:28

fair trial and it was reversed. And

1:02:30

I bring that up because now that

1:02:32

that is happening in the midst of

1:02:35

this trial, it's happened after

1:02:37

Judge Marchand ruled on the stand of

1:02:39

all the same, you know, if Trump

1:02:42

takes the stand, what he can ask him

1:02:44

about, and these prior bad

1:02:46

acts, what they can talk about. That

1:02:49

is now the law in New York. That is

1:02:51

the highest court in New York that has

1:02:54

come down. So it's binding on Judge Marchand.

1:02:56

And so I just put a pin in it because regardless

1:03:00

of whether he changes his ruling or

1:03:02

not, he's definitely analyzing that case.

1:03:04

He's the judge. He's analyzing it vis-a-vis

1:03:06

Donald Trump. You might see a change

1:03:09

in his ruling or you might

1:03:11

see him buttress his

1:03:13

record with why he

1:03:16

believes these things are important. But

1:03:20

it's something to just not forget because

1:03:22

it is a part of this case now

1:03:24

because this case has malano evidence, these

1:03:26

prior bad acts that are coming in

1:03:29

and are part of the case.

1:03:33

And if he testifies, there are things

1:03:36

that they can cross-examine him in, the

1:03:38

civil E.G.

1:03:40

Carroll case, the

1:03:43

Judge and Goran civil fraud case, those things.

1:03:45

So I just want to remind

1:03:47

people and just put it out

1:03:50

there that it could potentially have

1:03:53

some impact on this case. Regardless,

1:03:56

the judge is going to make sure that

1:03:58

when he charges the jury, that

1:04:00

when he allows certain pieces of evidence in,

1:04:02

when he makes a record, that it comports

1:04:04

with this new law that

1:04:08

just came down in the Harvey case. So I just

1:04:10

wanted to kind of mention that. Now, going to your

1:04:13

second question, what do we expect? I

1:04:16

think what we expect is

1:04:18

more cross-examination, obviously, of this

1:04:20

lawyer who, you know, this Keith Davidson,

1:04:23

he's going to, when he finishes his direct,

1:04:25

he'll be on cross, and I think they

1:04:27

still have some direct left of him. And

1:04:30

that could last, let's

1:04:32

see, tomorrow's Thursday. I think he's

1:04:34

going to go most

1:04:36

of the morning. It's not up

1:04:39

until, I bet he goes until lunch, because first thing

1:04:41

in the morning, they have a hearing on

1:04:44

the gag, the last four violations of

1:04:46

the gag order. So that's what we're

1:04:48

going to see Thursday morning. I

1:04:51

think the judge will find him in contempt again for

1:04:53

more, but he's not going to put him in yet

1:04:55

because he hadn't done the warning yet. So

1:04:59

then we'll finish up with Mr. Davidson.

1:05:01

And then I think he

1:05:04

could go all day, potentially, because he's pretty

1:05:06

substantive. So depending on how

1:05:08

long the cross is and the redirect

1:05:10

and all that, that could take up

1:05:12

Thursday. And then Friday, I think you're going

1:05:14

to see more records, witnesses. I

1:05:17

mean, prosecutors think on

1:05:19

Fridays in general, they're

1:05:21

not going to want to put on a really

1:05:24

substantive witness because their

1:05:26

direct would take most the day.

1:05:30

And they're not going to want the, or

1:05:32

even if it doesn't take most the day,

1:05:34

cross starts on Friday afternoon. You don't want

1:05:36

to give the defense, I hate to say it, the

1:05:38

whole weekend to really prep and work on their

1:05:40

cross. So you're not going

1:05:42

to put a real substantive witness on on a Friday

1:05:45

if you can help it, if scheduling

1:05:47

permits. So I think you're going to

1:05:49

see more record type witnesses. You're going

1:05:51

to have like bankers and bank records

1:05:54

and all the documents because this is

1:05:56

kind of a documents case in the

1:05:58

end. And then

1:06:01

I think you're going to see

1:06:03

next week focused on proving the

1:06:05

false business records. You're going to

1:06:08

see people from the Trump organization

1:06:10

and testifying about ledger entries

1:06:12

and invoices and bank records.

1:06:15

And I think it's going

1:06:17

to be a falsifying business records type

1:06:19

week. And then you're going to see

1:06:21

the catch and kill scheme. I

1:06:23

think that's when you're going to see the Hope Hicks because

1:06:26

she was very much involved in the

1:06:28

campaign and the talking about suppressing stories,

1:06:30

et cetera, and getting these stories so

1:06:32

that they don't come out during the

1:06:34

campaign. But I think that's going to

1:06:37

be the order of things. I think

1:06:39

it's going to be the falsified business

1:06:41

records witnesses and then the catch

1:06:43

and kill witnesses that would include Michael

1:06:45

Cohen, who I think you're going to

1:06:47

see toward the end. If

1:06:50

I were trying this case, I'd want

1:06:52

to corroborate everything he says. I

1:06:55

wouldn't want to rely on him for any facts. I'd

1:06:58

want all the facts to come in from everybody else. He

1:07:01

would provide the color and

1:07:04

then end with somebody really

1:07:06

strong. I

1:07:08

don't know, maybe end with Stormy Daniels. I'm not sure.

1:07:12

So that's how I would see the rest of the trial going.

1:07:15

You know, I heard a prosecutor talk

1:07:17

about ending with some of these other

1:07:19

clips of Donald Trump's own words. You

1:07:22

know, after you have Michael Cohen, after

1:07:24

you cross-examine him, all the clips of

1:07:26

Donald Trump in real time saying what

1:07:29

a great lawyer Michael Cohen was, how

1:07:31

important Michael Cohen was to him. Karen,

1:07:34

would you do that before Cohen testifies all?

1:07:36

We saw one of that from the C-SPAN

1:07:38

archivist. Do you show more of that, you

1:07:41

think, before Cohen testifies or after? You

1:07:43

know, it's

1:07:46

a great question. I think both. I

1:07:49

think, like I said, I would want

1:07:51

to put in every single, everything substantive

1:07:53

that Michael Cohen is going to testify

1:07:55

about. I would want to prove

1:07:58

that ahead of time. I wouldn't want to. I

1:08:01

know, look, I know he's part of the

1:08:03

Midas network and he, you

1:08:05

know, he's a friend to

1:08:07

many on the network. I've never

1:08:09

really talked to him or met him or anything

1:08:11

like that, although the firm I work for does

1:08:13

represent him. So I'm recused from that case. I

1:08:15

have nothing to do with that case. I don't

1:08:18

want to advise him or know anything about the

1:08:20

case. So

1:08:22

I say all that because,

1:08:25

you know, just objectively, he's got some

1:08:27

serious issues as a witness. And

1:08:30

so as a prosecutor, I would want

1:08:32

him I would think of him, frankly, more as

1:08:35

an exhibit in a way than a witness because

1:08:38

you can't really rely on like anything that

1:08:40

relies only on him, I think is a

1:08:43

little bit tricky for a jury. So

1:08:45

I'd want to corroborate everything

1:08:47

he's going to say that's

1:08:49

substantive from other witnesses.

1:08:51

And there are other witnesses, you know, there's

1:08:54

co-conspirators. Look, the records are what they are.

1:08:57

And that's black and white. And

1:09:00

there's also a lot of text

1:09:02

messages and emails that were sent

1:09:04

contemporaneous to the time. Witnesses can

1:09:06

come in and talk and testify

1:09:08

and you can accuse

1:09:10

them of lying. You can accuse them

1:09:12

of changing their story or you can

1:09:14

accuse them of having a bad memory

1:09:16

even. But to the extent that you

1:09:18

have anything in black and white front

1:09:20

that was contemporaneous to the time that

1:09:23

it happened, I think that is

1:09:25

also very powerful. So

1:09:27

if I'm the prosecutor, I'd want to just put

1:09:29

everything in that I can ahead of time

1:09:33

and then including Stormy Daniels, actually, now

1:09:35

that I think about it, I would

1:09:38

probably I think I'd

1:09:40

probably put her on first before

1:09:42

Michael Cohen. I

1:09:45

wouldn't put Karen McDougall on nor would I put

1:09:47

the doorman on. You don't need them. And

1:09:50

I also think that that

1:09:53

by putting them on, frankly, you

1:09:55

run the risk of potentially

1:10:00

putting too much in of this prior

1:10:02

bad act stuff and you run a

1:10:04

foul to Weinstein. So the fact

1:10:06

that you can mention it, talk about it,

1:10:08

it had to do with the election, it's

1:10:10

relevant, it's significant, but having them testify, I

1:10:12

think might be a bridge too far. Kind

1:10:15

of like what the judge did with the Access Hollywood tape,

1:10:17

he said, you can talk about it, but I'm not letting

1:10:19

you admit it. So if I'm the

1:10:22

prosecutor, I probably wouldn't call them as witnesses because

1:10:24

again, I don't want my case reversed if there's

1:10:26

a conviction either. So I would

1:10:28

probably not call them as

1:10:30

witnesses. And

1:10:33

I would save Michael not for the

1:10:35

very last, but for close to the end. And

1:10:38

then I'd want to again, you

1:10:41

want to end on a real high note and

1:10:43

something that you really want the jury to think

1:10:47

about, focus on and know, because after

1:10:49

that comes summations and

1:10:52

the defense goes first. It's not like the

1:10:54

feds where the prosecutor goes first and

1:10:57

then they have, I call it a

1:10:59

sandwich summation. It goes prosecutor, defense, and

1:11:01

then the prosecution gets to rebut it again. That's

1:11:04

how the feds do it. That's not how you do it

1:11:06

in New York state. In New York state, the defense goes

1:11:08

first, then the prosecutor goes to the

1:11:10

bathroom and throws up because they just heard all the

1:11:12

things that are terrible about the case. And you're like,

1:11:15

oh my God, how am I going to prove it

1:11:17

beyond a reasonable doubt? And

1:11:19

then you get, you know, splash cold water

1:11:21

on your face. You remind yourself of what

1:11:23

your summation is and you go out and you say it

1:11:25

and you say it to

1:11:27

the jury. But, and that's, that's

1:11:29

how it works. But but

1:11:32

yeah, that's, that's how I think I would

1:11:34

do it. You know,

1:11:36

I still don't, I see where

1:11:38

the defense was kind of going with Pekka. We'll

1:11:41

see their cross with Keith Davidson. So

1:11:44

far not very impressive. I thought

1:11:46

their opening statement was not

1:11:49

that compelling. I thought the cross on Pekka and

1:11:51

what were they going to cross them on really,

1:11:53

but you know, not that compelling. We'll

1:11:56

see what they do with Keith Davidson, how they treat

1:11:58

that. I'm just curious. is to see

1:12:01

where they're going with this and what their plan

1:12:03

is. But we will, of course, be

1:12:06

keeping all of the legal efforts up

1:12:08

to date on everything happening there. Finally,

1:12:10

I just wanted to talk briefly about

1:12:13

what's going on in the Southern District

1:12:15

of Florida case against Donald Trump or

1:12:17

the willful retention of national defense information,

1:12:19

including our nuclear secrets, as well as

1:12:22

war plans that Donald Trump stole. And

1:12:24

they're Donald Trump's defenses that he has

1:12:26

the right to steal anything he wants,

1:12:29

and it's not stealing. If

1:12:31

you were once holding the presidency,

1:12:33

it belongs to you. You could

1:12:35

declassify things with your mind and you

1:12:37

can convert our nuclear secrets into

1:12:39

personal records. We'll see

1:12:41

if that has a receptive audience

1:12:44

with the modern day right-wing Supreme

1:12:46

Court. I'm sure the United States

1:12:48

Supreme Court would be glad to

1:12:50

have our nuclear secrets become personal

1:12:52

property of people. And I'm not

1:12:54

saying that sarcastically. I think that's

1:12:56

the status of our right-wing Supreme

1:12:58

Court based, Karen, on why

1:13:01

this 2016 situation was so significant.

1:13:03

Why this case is so important

1:13:06

is that the dynamics of the

1:13:08

Supreme Court, the rights that had

1:13:10

been taken away from Americans, it

1:13:12

traces back to Donald Trump

1:13:14

winning certain states by about

1:13:16

80,000 votes, losing the popular

1:13:18

vote. And would that have

1:13:20

been the result? Had these facts been known

1:13:23

and there wasn't catch and kill? And

1:13:25

Trump falsifying business records. But I

1:13:28

digress. Going back to Judge

1:13:30

Eileen Cannon, she

1:13:33

previously held a hearing on March 1st,

1:13:36

which was a hearing to revisit the

1:13:38

trial date. She hadn't

1:13:41

set basic deadlines that you

1:13:43

would normally set in any

1:13:45

case involving classified documents, like

1:13:47

a CIPA Section 5 deadline,

1:13:49

which she only recently set,

1:13:51

which Trump's lawyers had

1:13:53

requested that that date be moved

1:13:55

based on the Manhattan criminal trial

1:13:57

taking place. She's yet to reach a.

1:14:00

any significant rulings really

1:14:02

about anything. I mean,

1:14:04

she's addressed certain motions to dismiss by Trump

1:14:07

and his co-defendants, but she

1:14:10

was supposed to rule on this trial date and Karen, you

1:14:12

got, it's May 1st, as

1:14:14

we're recording this, it's May 1st,

1:14:16

trials May 20th. This is a

1:14:18

federal trial. How does a

1:14:20

judge hold a hearing on March

1:14:22

1st, indicate she's gonna

1:14:24

move the trial date and

1:14:27

just as a matter of just

1:14:29

basic courtesy and just the

1:14:31

most basic of diligence, how

1:14:33

do you not change the trial date? There's

1:14:35

a hundred things that need to be done

1:14:37

when you're preparing for a trial. And

1:14:41

again, setting aside even this case and

1:14:43

her horrific rulings and all of the

1:14:45

things she's done that I've been very,

1:14:47

very critical of, and we've been here,

1:14:49

the most basic thing is organizing your

1:14:51

docket and you haven't moved the

1:14:54

trial date when your last hearing was March

1:14:56

1st and you indicated you were going to

1:14:58

move it. I don't, Karen, I'll leave this

1:15:00

with you. What do you think she's like,

1:15:03

is she disorganized? Is she trying to pull

1:15:06

something here? Like what, do you have any

1:15:08

clue what it is? Have you ever seen

1:15:10

anything like this? I've

1:15:12

never seen anything like it. I mean, in

1:15:14

federal court, again, just talking the

1:15:16

difference between state court and federal

1:15:19

court, in state court, cases

1:15:21

are on for trial and people show

1:15:23

up and say, oh, we're not ready or

1:15:25

I need time. And these

1:15:27

cases kind of churn and it's frustrating

1:15:29

because if you want a

1:15:31

case to go to trial, you don't

1:15:34

always know. And the judges are quite

1:15:36

lenient actually sometimes about setting

1:15:39

a trial date on certain cases.

1:15:43

But in federal court, it's totally

1:15:45

different. When there is a date

1:15:47

for a trial, that's it. It's

1:15:49

kind of like the way Judge Marchand did Trump's

1:15:52

case where he said, no, this is the date. He

1:15:54

picked it almost a year in advance and said, everybody

1:15:56

clear your calendars. This is the date we're going.

1:16:00

And so judges will signal when that's the

1:16:02

case. And in federal court, that's always the

1:16:04

case. The trial date is

1:16:06

a real date. It's never kind of this wishy

1:16:08

washy, loosey goosey. So to see a

1:16:10

judge, a federal judge do it like

1:16:12

that, I've just never seen any blanket.

1:16:15

Federal judges keep incredible

1:16:17

control over their courtroom and

1:16:21

tremendous order in their courtroom.

1:16:24

And it's not this loosey goosey. I

1:16:26

mean, there's no way, even if everyone

1:16:28

showed up and said, we're ready to

1:16:30

go to trial, the case can't go

1:16:32

to trial. It's not ready. As

1:16:34

you said, there's lots of rulings that haven't

1:16:36

happened, hearings that

1:16:39

haven't happened, motions that

1:16:41

haven't. I mean, the

1:16:43

case is just not ready. So for her

1:16:45

to have a trial date that's not real

1:16:47

and not set a trial date is

1:16:50

just, I almost don't know what

1:16:52

to make of it, because it's so head scratching

1:16:54

and I've never seen anything like it. But the

1:16:56

case is not going. I don't know

1:16:58

when it's going. It just doesn't, I don't know

1:17:00

what's happening on the case. It just doesn't seem

1:17:02

to be moving. It seems to just be in

1:17:05

this weird posture where

1:17:07

she's not pushing it. And she's

1:17:09

making these very, very odd rulings

1:17:12

when she does. She cares more

1:17:14

about making certain things public than

1:17:17

she does about moving the case

1:17:19

along and moving it forward. So clearly,

1:17:22

she has no, there's no sense of

1:17:24

urgency, but there's also no sense of

1:17:27

honesty. Just set a trial

1:17:29

date. It's clear it's not happening May 20th

1:17:31

or 19th or whatever the date

1:17:33

is. It's not happening

1:17:35

this year. I don't think it

1:17:38

could happen this year based on how she has

1:17:40

not ruled. So just be honest

1:17:42

about it. Be transparent and set a

1:17:44

trial date. I think that's the thing

1:17:46

about the justice system is it belongs

1:17:48

to the American people. It doesn't belong

1:17:51

just to the government or to the

1:17:53

judge or to the defendant. It's really

1:17:55

the American people who have

1:17:58

a right to know. what's

1:18:01

happening in a public, I mean, you

1:18:03

know, the right to a public trial

1:18:05

is guaranteed in the Constitution because, and

1:18:08

that's why reporters and the press and

1:18:10

everybody, they have a First Amendment right

1:18:12

to know everything that's happening. And

1:18:14

that's why they fight to get to the

1:18:16

sidebars and to be able to know what's happening when they're

1:18:18

talking on the bench, why you have

1:18:20

to make a motion to seal something,

1:18:23

and why it is. Because

1:18:26

it's not just like, oh, we'll show

1:18:28

it to the defense, you know, and

1:18:30

we'll have a protective order. No, that's

1:18:32

not good enough. You have to, there

1:18:35

has to be findings on the record

1:18:37

about why something is sealed and not

1:18:39

matter of public view. And the press

1:18:41

will often make motions to open

1:18:43

these things up because there is this constitutional

1:18:46

right. And part of that is

1:18:48

the right to have honesty and

1:18:50

transparency and legitimacy in the

1:18:52

court system. And she just

1:18:54

is not, she is absolutely

1:18:57

being disingenuous again.

1:18:59

And, you know, look, it's,

1:19:01

I still struggle with criticizing

1:19:04

a judge, especially

1:19:07

a federal judge, but any judge because I have

1:19:09

such respect for them. I,

1:19:11

in some ways, revere them, you know, you call

1:19:13

them your honor and like there's, I have friends

1:19:15

who are judges and I still call them judge,

1:19:18

even if they're retired, you know, just because

1:19:20

it's such an honor. It

1:19:22

truly is an honor. And the honor is

1:19:24

because you're not an advocate. You

1:19:26

don't do things based on an

1:19:28

agenda. You're not political. You literally

1:19:31

call balls and strikes and

1:19:33

do justice. You do the right thing.

1:19:36

The judge or the judge or the doctor might argue for

1:19:38

prison and the defense says no, set

1:19:40

them free. And, but you as the judge,

1:19:42

you're like, you know what? Maybe what's the

1:19:44

just thing here is something else. Right? And

1:19:48

I'm going to do what's just, what's right. And

1:19:50

rise above the whole thing. And that's the role of

1:19:52

a judge. That's the role of the court. And

1:19:55

so for there to be such just

1:19:57

dishonesty in this particular court. and

1:20:00

seemingly a political agenda just

1:20:03

is so upsetting. And

1:20:06

I struggle with it. And I struggle with being

1:20:08

able to say what I really feel because she

1:20:10

is a judge. And she was,

1:20:13

you know, she's somebody who just,

1:20:15

I am trained to revere the position,

1:20:18

the court and the

1:20:21

institution. But she really is making it

1:20:23

hard and it's challenging for me given

1:20:26

how she's handling this case. Well,

1:20:29

Karen, you and I will be covering

1:20:32

all things Trump criminal

1:20:34

trial tomorrow. We

1:20:36

hope everyone's been appreciating these updates

1:20:38

here on Legal AF and on

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the Midas Touch Network. I wanna

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1:21:27

Friedman, Ignifalo and I will be back

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this with you, Karen. Popoc, we wish

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you the best. Enjoy your time off.

1:21:44

Have a good one.