0:02

Three weeks are in the books

0:04

at the Donald Trump criminal trial

0:06

in Manhattan. We've had

0:09

three major witnesses testify thus

0:11

far a few other

0:13

more minor witnesses, but I

0:16

think they've presented some incredibly

0:18

powerful evidence. The three major

0:20

witnesses thus far, we had

0:22

David Pekka, Keith Davidson, and

0:24

then on Friday, Hope

0:27

Hicks, Karen Friedman, Agnifolo,

0:29

who co-hosts LegalAF with

0:32

us. She was in the courtroom

0:35

at the trial on Friday. She

0:37

described what she observed with

0:39

the Hope Hicks testimony as

0:41

a Perry Mason moment when

0:44

Hope Hicks described this meeting

0:46

she had with Donald Trump,

0:48

where Trump acknowledged that Cohen

0:50

had made the payment to

0:52

Stormy Daniels. Then Hope

0:54

Hicks talked about how she did not

0:56

believe that Cohen would just ever make

0:58

a payment like that out of the

1:00

goodness of his heart. Then she

1:03

started breaking down in tears

1:05

right before cross-exam started. I

1:07

want to break that down

1:09

and all of the key

1:11

witness testimony. I want to

1:13

talk about all the key

1:15

documentary evidence that has come

1:17

in. The checks, the audio

1:19

files, the bank accounts, the

1:21

C-SPAN videos, and more. Then

1:24

I want to talk about where are

1:26

we going next, what happens next. Then,

1:28

Popak, if we have some time, I

1:30

think we should talk about how Trump

1:33

Media's independent auditor,

1:35

the new Trump company that

1:37

was formed through that reverse

1:39

merger with the SPAC, the

1:41

auditor was called BF Borgers,

1:43

the actual accountant's name or

1:45

the so-called accountant's name was

1:47

Ben Borgers. That's their office

1:50

right there. It looks like

1:52

a restroom on one of

1:54

those rest stop exits off

1:56

the highways, which was the first red flag when

1:58

I read the first few minutes. filing post

2:00

merger. I said, who's this auditor

2:03

who signed off on it? Because

2:05

I remembered that a bunch of

2:07

the other auditors quit. So they

2:09

needed somebody to sign off on

2:11

Trump Media and in the new

2:14

SEC charges against BF borders, they

2:16

refer to this company as an

2:18

audit mill that would basically sign

2:20

off on anything. And look, this

2:22

is a repeated pattern that we've

2:25

seen. And then of course, when

2:27

there was some reporting being done

2:29

in the past few weeks about

2:31

BF borders, Trump's folks, people all started

2:34

saying, Oh, this is a witch hunt.

2:36

How dare they go after the auditor

2:38

before they've even began work. And sure

2:40

enough, the auditor has been engaged in

2:43

some horrific, horrific conduct.

2:45

We'll talk about that and more on

2:47

the legal AF. I'm Ben Micellis joined

2:50

by Michael Popak. Popak, thanks for

2:52

letting me fill in

2:54

midweek. It's always a pleasure to be

2:57

able to do that. I know you've

2:59

been running around, you've been posting some

3:01

photos of where you've been out as

3:04

well. Thanks, Ben.

3:06

I took my wife to District of Columbia

3:08

to DC. She'd never been. And we're trying

3:10

to find ways to do some

3:13

quick vacations while my wife is pregnant with

3:15

our first child. So I do appreciate you

3:17

stepping in for me. We do it for

3:19

each other. Very supportive network

3:21

and group of colleagues here on

3:24

Legal AF. I

3:26

like the way we broke down or gonna break down the

3:29

show today. Things we're gonna talk

3:31

about are important both as a listening and watching

3:34

guide for things that have already happened to put

3:36

them in context and give our

3:38

audience who's just got a voracious appetite

3:40

for all things at the intersection of

3:43

law and politics, particularly the Trump trial

3:45

going on right as we expected. I

3:48

know there was a lot of news reporting out there that

3:50

said, oh, are people just, are

3:52

they just tired of all this? Does

3:54

anybody care about the Trump trial? And

3:56

by our viewership and by the various

3:59

shows and... pregame

4:01

and postgame that you and Karen are doing

4:03

and the fill-in, the backfill that you and

4:05

I and others are doing about the case,

4:07

the answer to that is a resounding yes.

4:10

Not only is our audience at

4:12

rapt attention, but also

4:14

the jury. We have a lot of

4:16

reporting, both from people like Karen who are in the room and

4:18

others, about how this

4:21

information that's being presented by the

4:23

prosecutor. By my count, we're

4:25

about a third to a halfway through

4:28

their scripts, which was outlined

4:30

a year ago in their statement of

4:32

facts that they presented as they had

4:34

to as prosecutors to Donald

4:36

Trump. They're about halfway

4:38

or maybe a little bit more through that.

4:40

They've done a remarkable job. I think if

4:43

you were to poll the prosecutors and ask

4:45

them, there's always two cases. There's

4:48

the one in your mind that is the

4:51

best presentation you possibly can make, and then there's

4:53

the one that actually happens in the courtroom. It's

4:56

a pretty close correlation here. They got

4:58

to be happy for the prosecution. Sure,

5:01

there was some interesting moments that

5:03

the press ran with about some

5:06

cross-examination of Keith Davidson, the lawyer

5:08

for Stormy Daniels and for

5:10

Karen McDougall that we'll talk about, trying

5:12

to make him out to be a

5:15

drive-by extortionist and all of that.

5:17

It was, again, I was called

5:19

a Melania, sorry. No picks, the

5:21

Melania lookalike, breaking down in tears at

5:23

a certain moment for reasons that you

5:26

and I will have fun speculating about

5:28

on this podcast. But that's not the

5:32

nuts and bolts. That's not the wood chopping

5:34

that's going on in the courtroom in front

5:36

of the jury. It's

5:38

interesting, and we'll talk a lot about it. But

5:40

when you and I are going to detail and you've done in

5:42

a hot take, the checks, the

5:46

emails, the audio, the

5:49

video, the secret recordings,

5:52

all evidence that is evaluated by the

5:54

jury, but all has equal weight in

5:56

terms of its value,

5:58

testimonial, evidence. century recordings,

6:01

audio, and all of that. And

6:04

they are doing, I'll just leave it on this then, the

6:07

prosecutors are doing a masterful job

6:09

in the presentation of their case

6:12

in chief because they're

6:14

moving from inside witnesses to outside

6:16

witnesses, inside, outside, as opposed to,

6:18

just to make it clear for

6:20

our audience, when you're a trial

6:22

lawyer like you and me, Ben,

6:24

Karen, you have to think about

6:26

the organizing principles of your presentation. There has

6:29

to be an internal logic to

6:31

how you present your case to the jury. You

6:33

can't just take, as I said on a hot

6:35

take recently, you can't just take a giant box

6:37

of a puzzle, a jigsaw puzzle,

6:39

and dump it out on the table and tell the

6:41

jury you figure it out during the course of the

6:44

trial. You have to give them big pieces of

6:46

whatever your puzzle is linked

6:49

together and then attach it elegantly

6:51

during the course of a trial.

6:53

And what we've seen is

6:55

every time there is an outside

6:57

witness like David Pekker, it's matched

7:00

with an inside witness like Ronna

7:02

Graf, we're going inside, we're

7:04

going outside, outside witness in,

7:08

Keith Davidson, lawyers for the two people part

7:10

of the Catch and Kill program, the targets

7:12

of the Catch and Kill program, inside witness,

7:14

Hope Hicks, as they make their

7:16

way methodically through that script of the

7:18

statement of facts that they gave us

7:20

back in April as they

7:23

move into kind of the final

7:25

moments when they're going to bring

7:27

in some more boring inside witnesses

7:29

like the accounts payable supervisor and

7:31

the controller who already almost went

7:33

to jail once already and

7:35

then eventually Michael Cohen. And so that's

7:37

what we're going to outline today and

7:39

then of course at the end we'll

7:42

talk about this long series of Trump

7:44

accountants and auditors who either don't

7:46

want anything to do with him and fire

7:48

him or get caught in their

7:50

own fraud. You know

7:52

there is this harmony, this

7:55

kind of orchestral Directorial

7:59

aspect. Being a prosecutor

8:01

in presenting the evidence and how

8:03

you start it's you almost think

8:05

about like that answer right. You.

8:07

Don't want to bore your audience when

8:09

you begin the concert with like. The.

8:12

Worst Song or a new Saw Rights your is

8:14

A when you go and you see I when

8:16

you see a band that you love and they

8:18

start off in like all right I'm going to

8:20

play you a new song off an album that

8:23

you haven't heard yet. You may like that but

8:25

you don't want to your they are. You want

8:27

to start off strong and that was the point

8:29

that you made Pope. Ah the you thought they

8:31

were going to start of the right. So you

8:33

go David Packer used to be. could the story

8:36

then you start to your point. You then have.

8:38

Witnesses. Who then just show

8:40

here the documents, your text messages,

8:42

your business records, your bank records.

8:45

Then you go. here's keep Davidson

8:47

another major player. Then you go

8:49

Okay, here are more trump text

8:51

year or more trump messages and

8:54

then you go Hope Hicks And

8:56

so it's been just the from

8:58

a. A professional

9:01

perspective to watch this. It's just

9:03

been very impressive to defraud l

9:05

aficionados like you and I was

9:07

in. Exactly, it's been

9:10

great. So let's just start in

9:12

with the most recent witness though,

9:14

Hope Hicks. It's on everybody's mind,

9:16

just as a way of background

9:19

for everybody. The background of Hope

9:21

Hicks. He was a teenage model.

9:23

She started working for the Trump

9:25

organization shortly after she graduated from

9:28

college. When Donald Trump decided to

9:30

run for office, she kind of

9:32

then became this press secretary of

9:34

the nascent kind of campaign. and

9:37

then she became the Press Secretary.

9:39

When Trump ultimately one in disgrace

9:41

the office. she was the Communications

9:43

Director from Twenty seven to Twenty

9:46

eighteen. she stopped working there at

9:48

Twenty eighteen Than she returned In

9:50

our Twenty Twenty Twenty Twenty One

9:53

she was there for the insurrection.

9:55

She's testified before the January Six

9:58

committee, but she has not. Joakim

10:00

with Donald Trump or People in Trump's

10:02

Orbit. For. Several years was

10:04

one of the first things that

10:07

she had talked about. She's represented

10:09

by an independent counsel not like

10:11

a Trump appointed lawyer arm and

10:13

Karen Friedman agnew follow our coastal

10:15

legally f. Was. In the

10:18

courtroom and just a reminder. Karen

10:20

worked in the District Attorney's office

10:22

for nearly thirty years to was

10:24

the number two at that office

10:26

and and sometimes she served as

10:28

the acting District Attorney look the

10:30

top spot. I'm so she was

10:33

there she observed didn't I just

10:35

think it's so important part in

10:37

our reporting. Like. When you

10:39

go to the courthouse and new

10:41

debunked Donald Trump saying that like

10:43

all people can't go there and

10:46

protest and that it's being blocked.

10:48

I think it's so important that

10:50

we have host like Karen Friedman,

10:52

agnes below, Harry lit men and

10:54

others who are actually in the

10:56

courtroom telling us so we're not

10:58

just giving you like speculation. So

11:00

this is what Karen Friedman, I'm

11:02

nipple Who's that? She left the

11:05

court room, she was going to

11:07

her next meeting and so. And

11:09

current explained what happened with Hope Hicks.

11:11

She was quite literally in like a

11:13

hallway and as you know k if

11:16

they can't remitting the follows Been reporting

11:18

with us from like buses and trains

11:20

and taxicabs because she wants to get

11:23

us the information first So she leaves

11:25

the courtroom and this is exactly what

11:27

she told us about the whole picks

11:30

testament. Let's play this clip. Prosecution

11:33

started asking her

11:35

about. This

11:39

payments that has made

11:41

as as. As.

11:44

Soon as I just trying to think

11:46

of exactly what it was, fixes so

11:49

powerful. He basically said that

11:51

later on after he was already

11:53

president. For

11:56

say about the payment to

11:58

Stormy Daniel. Wait,

12:01

What he said to her was. It's

12:04

a good thing the story didn't come

12:06

out before the election. And.

12:08

As she was saying it it

12:10

felt like of Perry Mason move

12:12

moment because she very. Much

12:14

were saying I'm. To

12:17

very much with with. Confirming.

12:19

What donald what the prosecution periods with

12:21

was that the whole reason they suppressed

12:24

that was to was because of the

12:26

elections and at that moment she started

12:28

to cry. And which

12:31

tracks and then the

12:33

defense attorney. And Neil both got

12:35

up and ask your question like confirm what

12:37

your job, Is there? Something like that? And.

12:39

The she broke down crying. And

12:43

an. Email and as a

12:45

defense attorney. Inner city.

12:47

Just basically. Is the prosecution what

12:49

they needed? I. They.

12:51

Hide The primary reason

12:53

that Donald Trump wanted.

12:56

This story not for come out before.

12:58

Or with because of the election

13:00

and I think the gravity of

13:02

what she had just forgotten prosecution.

13:05

She broke down crying. Sir

13:08

Michael Po. Park he heard Karen

13:10

Friedman I knew follow described books

13:12

on would she observed with Hope

13:14

Hicks Of course We've gotten reporting

13:16

not just from K of A,

13:18

but numerous others who are in

13:20

the courthouse who we work with

13:22

interest or the great reporters who

13:24

work for other outlets. So we've

13:26

gotten a wide array of perspectives

13:28

here. Ah, to synthesize on Pope?

13:30

Ah, what do you make of

13:32

Hope Hicks testimony. On

13:35

Friday. I like the way you

13:37

started a burn by describing who who fixes.

13:39

She was very candid. I did

13:41

a hard take out. Hope Hicks said she's gonna

13:44

be devastating for Donald Trump. She's.

13:46

Going to destroy the Molony. A difference

13:48

which will talk about in detail here

13:50

which seems to be based on the

13:53

opening statements made by the incredible shrinking

13:55

Todd Blanche, who I haven't seen in

13:57

the courtroom do anything substantively other than.

14:00

The Borders and the opening. He's turned it

14:02

over to his colleague. Who. Works under

14:04

him a meal Beauvais, who's been doing

14:06

the cross examination of all the major

14:08

witnesses I'm actually quite surprised by that

14:10

Indicates props that Blanche. An

14:12

anomaly trial lawyer and my cases. and yes

14:14

I have colleagues of have handled cases with

14:17

me by like the main witnesses of Hope

14:19

Hicks and they keep Davidson turn it over

14:21

to my to my junior colleague. I doubt

14:23

I would do that in the I'm I'm

14:25

wondering what that signals back to Hope Hicks.

14:28

Hope. Tax is a can self

14:30

confessed. A self

14:32

confessed to be inappropriate inexperienced for

14:34

the jobs that she helped. She

14:37

told in her testimony she told

14:39

the jury. That. She

14:41

was shocked when Donald Trump offered

14:43

a twenty eight year old. Know

14:46

Press Secretary experience Opec's the job

14:49

of press Secretary for his campaign.

14:51

She. Said she thought he was kidding He

14:54

She laughed, he said and know and

14:56

then eventually she was offered a job.

14:58

Hope Hicks is one in a series

15:00

of Molony A look alikes that are

15:02

in Trump's or bit. Here's a picture

15:04

of them. Margo Martin is the new

15:06

Hope Hicks. She's in the court room,

15:08

She's twenty eight now she's a Deputy

15:10

Communications Director for Donald Trump. That she's

15:12

on the left Molony out there. Then

15:14

you've got Hope Hicks. That's Kristi Noem,

15:16

But I would put the fourth one

15:19

it as a Lena Harbor. If you

15:21

line all these. People up you think

15:23

they were tried out for Fox News,

15:25

but they're not. They're all have leadership

15:27

or communication roles for Donald Trump. She

15:29

also testified in to which I think

15:31

I'm completely destroys the Millennia defense which

15:33

is I didn't do it because I

15:36

was trying to interfere with the election.

15:38

I was just trying to protect Molony

15:40

A. While. The number of flies in

15:42

the ointment on that. First of all, where is Molony?

15:45

A powerful moment as a defense lawyer. If

15:47

I were handling the case which course I

15:49

never would, neither would bend. Their parents would

15:51

be to have a lotta yet in the

15:53

court room. During Hope Hicks his testimony you

15:55

want is the waterworks For Hope Hicks bring

15:58

in Milan he I never sit by. It'll

16:00

drop in the gallery. That. Didn't

16:02

happen because the story doesn't make any sense

16:04

and the jury are human beings and

16:06

to believe the story that he was doing

16:09

this to protect Donald Trump's than what

16:11

is to make of what. Topics.

16:13

Said which is she did not

16:15

believe Donald Trump. On a key

16:18

point, she said that Donald Trump

16:20

told her, isn't it great that

16:22

Michael Cohen on his own selflessly

16:24

gave a Stormy Daniels the hundred

16:27

thirty thousand dollars. To.

16:29

Try to to try to act

16:31

like he was in involved with

16:33

them as the mastermind of the

16:35

orchestrated conspiracy between David Packer Michael

16:37

Cohen out why so bargain with

16:39

Donald Trump at The Center to

16:41

pay off women like Stormy Daniels

16:43

and Care Mcdougall and others who

16:45

had negative stories that would interfere

16:47

with his election results as we

16:50

moved into October and November of

16:52

Twenty Six Team, That is the

16:54

story. Okay, and that is the

16:56

facts on the statement of fact

16:58

that the prosecutors are methodically. Making

17:00

their way through witnessed by

17:02

witness, document by document, This.

17:05

Molony A story. Is.

17:07

Blown apart both by Pope Hicks testimonies that

17:10

would Donald Trump said oh yeah was a

17:12

great microcode yourself as the beta payment you

17:14

decided believe that. I. Didn't billie and

17:16

under cross examination I didn't believe that. why

17:18

not? Because I'd ever saw microcode is doing

17:21

anything selflessly or with charity. He's of person

17:23

that tix try to take credit for everything.

17:25

I did not believe Donald Trump. So what

17:27

do you have. Yeah. The jury hearing

17:29

that Hope Hicks comes off very credible with

17:31

her crying and all the rest of editor

17:33

of her demeanor that she thinks Donald Trump's

17:36

a liar on a key point in this

17:38

case. The other thing

17:40

the jury's already heard before Hope Pixies

17:42

and Get gets their members or something

17:44

like Hope Hicks is is a moment

17:46

in time, but she follows a sequence

17:48

of other events that have already happened

17:50

that the jury has already heard it

17:52

if they don't remember if they will

17:54

be reminded of com Closing and other

17:56

witnesses as we move through the state,

17:58

they've already heard that. Will Trump.

18:01

Why? Did Michael Cohen to delay

18:03

the payment the Stormy Daniels to

18:05

see if he could avoid paying

18:07

it outright? To. And get

18:09

elected without were they keep her story

18:11

off the front page of having sex

18:13

with Donald Trump outside the marriage. Ralph's

18:15

a lot. He was pregnant with one

18:17

of her children, Baron. If if he

18:19

could get elected without having to pay

18:21

her he would. That would be fine

18:24

with him. For. What Happened to the

18:26

Molony defense? I mean, how does malaria get

18:28

less hurt? Or. Less embarrassed.

18:30

If. If is President so that

18:32

his blog. They've already heard that.

18:35

Now they've heard from Hope Hicks.

18:37

Is. Reluctant witness that of his crew

18:39

who Trump apparently did according to court

18:42

reporters getting guess carrots with didn't never

18:44

looked at her, kept his eyes shut

18:46

during the whole the whole thing as

18:48

she testified. The

18:51

each doubt it did she give

18:53

a couple a little ah up

18:55

a little kernels to the defense

18:57

on the molony a defense if

18:59

the jury even bought it which

19:01

they won't maybe said wow he

19:03

he he cared about melodious or

19:05

or husband cares about a wife

19:07

or he valued her opinion. okay

19:09

same thing he he was in

19:11

control of his own pr or

19:13

that makes sense. He's control of

19:15

his own defense strategy, pushing and

19:17

shoving his lawyers to do his

19:19

bidding. And. We the jury has and

19:21

heard one new bit of evidence in favor

19:23

of the defense. My position

19:26

from Hope Hicks. And yet on

19:28

the very moment. When. She

19:30

knew she was crushing total Drugs

19:32

hopes and dreams of a defense.

19:34

She burst into tears and believe

19:36

me, not only our our chaos say

19:39

the back stairwell of that dingy

19:41

courthouse that she used to work in

19:43

notice that but the prosecutors noticed

19:45

that and they are going to remind

19:47

the jury of that in they're closing

19:50

when they get down to the

19:52

closing arguments. Last thing on on on.

19:54

Hope Hicks is with who's basically

19:56

done. and you

19:58

but you made a good point about her

20:01

not being, hasn't spoken to

20:03

Trump in two years, didn't take any new jobs with

20:05

him. She doesn't really have

20:07

to any longer. The reporting is that

20:09

she's about to marry the number two

20:11

guy at Goldman Sachs, the major investment

20:13

firm, financial services firm in New York,

20:16

who may at this moment have more

20:18

money than Donald Trump. So

20:20

she doesn't really have to kowtow to the

20:22

Trump orbit in

20:26

her testimony. And I think as we

20:28

expected that she was going to be,

20:30

I think the jury will find

20:32

her very effective as a truth teller. And

20:35

the few things that a meal, the lawyer

20:37

for Donald Trump was able to get out

20:39

that they'll try to spin together as some

20:41

sort of Melania defense will fall under the

20:43

weight of the mountain of additional evidence and

20:46

testimony that will be a deuce during this

20:48

trial by the prosecution. Andrew

20:50

Weissman, who was in the courtroom

20:52

as well, and who's been reporting on

20:54

some of these developments says the

20:56

following, this is why hope

20:58

Hicks is such a devastating witness against

21:00

Donald Trump. Hicks makes

21:03

clear that Trump knew of the

21:05

Cohen payoff scheme to Stormy Daniels

21:07

to even if you

21:09

believe his statement to her that

21:12

he only learned after the fact,

21:14

three, her testimony sinks Trump's defense

21:16

since he is on record in

21:18

a civil case admitting that he

21:20

reimbursed Cohen the $130,000 and four

21:25

Hicks establishes that Trump knew

21:27

that the money was for

21:29

Daniels silence, not for the

21:31

claimed legal fees for ongoing

21:34

legal work by Cohen. I think

21:36

of all of those number four

21:38

is the most important part right

21:40

there that Trump was aware that

21:43

this was hush money payments for

21:45

silencing her. If Trump's

21:47

going to try to argue that

21:49

the payments that he made and

21:51

his signature is on to Michael

21:53

Cohen are for other

21:55

things, it's

21:57

going to be clear that he specifically

22:00

knew that Cohen had

22:02

paid off Stormy Daniels. You know what proves that

22:04

point Ben, before you move on? The

22:07

fact that they gave Michael Cohen what's

22:09

called a true up payment and paid him $400,000 for

22:11

$130,000 payment. Let

22:14

me just explain it quickly. If it were

22:16

just a payment to Michael Cohen for his income, okay,

22:19

then they would just pay him for his

22:21

legal services, the $130,000 for

22:24

whatever those legal services were on the fact that

22:26

two days earlier, he set up a new sham

22:28

company, went to his bank and took out a

22:30

loan and then turned the money over to the

22:32

lawyers for Stormy Daniels. So that's a lot of

22:34

things that the jury's gonna have to disbelieve in

22:37

order to believe Donald Trump. But then if it's

22:39

just $130,000, let's

22:41

take Trump at his word for once. It

22:44

was $130,000 payment for legal expenses. I

22:46

don't know how he paid his taxes. Then why is it for $400,000? And

22:50

why is it include what Michael Cohen

22:52

will ultimately testify as a true up

22:55

payment? Meaning he'd have to record that

22:57

on some tax return for

22:59

this company that he set up or for

23:01

himself as income. It's phantom income or income

23:03

to him, meaning he'd have to pay taxes

23:05

on it. He didn't wanna pay taxes on

23:08

it. Trump didn't want him to pay taxes

23:10

on it. So he got a payment so

23:12

that when he, and I'm sure Michael will

23:14

testify, that when he put this, recorded it

23:16

on his tax returns as quote unquote income,

23:19

he had the money from Trump to pay

23:21

the taxes. You don't do that when you,

23:23

I'm a lawyer, I get a payment from a client. The

23:26

client pays me. He doesn't pay me and

23:28

then pay my taxes on the payment.

23:30

And so that whole thing, that whole structure

23:33

of the true up payment and paying Michael

23:35

Cohen 400,000 to cover

23:37

the tracks of $130,000 payment in order so

23:40

he didn't get screwed to tax time. What

23:42

does that say? That says Michael

23:44

Cohen is the conduit for Donald

23:46

Trump and Donald, not the other

23:48

way around. This other theory of

23:50

the defense, the rogue Michael Cohen

23:52

theory is also going out the

23:54

window through HOPEX, that Michael Cohen

23:56

on his own, to

23:59

kind of bully a lawyer. his way into the campaign,

24:01

and that Trump's good grace has just decided

24:03

he would kill the deal. We

24:05

know that's not true, because Pekker testified that

24:08

the only reason he didn't make the payment

24:10

directly to Stormy Daniels is because he got

24:12

screwed by Trump on the payment to Karen

24:14

McDougal for $150,000. And

24:17

he's like, I'm out. I'm not spending

24:19

more of my employer's money. I'm buying

24:21

another story for Donald Trump and not

24:24

getting reimbursed. Hence Michael Cohen. And

24:27

what's the common denominator for this

24:29

episode so far? The jury is

24:32

watching and listening. And

24:34

you can't pull wool over their eyes,

24:36

and the prosecutors won't let the defense.

24:40

And I think this is the simplest argument to

24:42

make to the jury, too. If

24:44

Michael Cohen went rogue and

24:47

did things that he wasn't supposed

24:49

to do at all, that

24:51

weren't in a retainer, that Cohen

24:53

went rogue, assume that's the

24:55

argument, then why did Donald Trump pay

24:58

him? Right.

25:01

And then why would Donald Trump pay

25:03

him extra? Rogue

25:06

payments. You are so

25:08

rogue. You are acting so out

25:10

of authority that I'm giving you

25:13

a bonus. You're cutting your

25:15

mind out of guy. I am going to give

25:17

you triple the money, because you are a rogue,

25:19

awful person. That's so good. That's

25:22

the most obvious explanation. But there's

25:24

more, too. There's lots of video

25:27

of Donald Trump praising Michael Cohen

25:29

in real time, then. Let's

25:32

talk about that and more. I also

25:34

want to talk about this civil

25:36

lawsuit where some stipulations were

25:39

made by Trump's

25:41

legal team back in 2018

25:44

or so, and confirmed by a judge

25:46

in 2020 in a Stormy Daniels v.

25:49

Donald Trump civil case right out here

25:51

in Los Angeles that I think is

25:53

going to have major ramifications. And you

25:55

and I will start talking about some

25:58

of the documentary evidence as well. We'll

26:00

talk about that and more. Let's take our first quick

26:02

break. You thought houseplants are just

26:04

for decoration. Think again Neopx

26:07

from neoplants bring science and

26:09

nature together to create

26:11

a living air purifying powerhouse for your

26:13

home Neopx is the

26:15

world's first plant microbiome system

26:18

Bioengineered to purify the air in your

26:20

home indoor air can be up to

26:22

five times more polluted than outdoors mainly

26:25

due to harmful pollutants called BOC's

26:28

volatile organic compounds that are

26:30

constantly emitted indoors from thousands

26:32

of common household products like

26:34

furniture paint cosmetics and more

26:37

Neopx was invented by PhD scientists to

26:39

target three of the most harmful BOC's

26:41

found in your home and it's up

26:43

to 30 times better than a regular

26:46

house plant at fighting indoor air pollution

26:48

It's based on five years of

26:50

research and development to enable neopx

26:52

to capture and recycle VOC's into

26:54

useful matter like sugar and amino

26:56

acids Every month you

26:59

just pour the bioengineered formula called

27:01

power drops onto the plant soil

27:03

to supercharge Neopx is air

27:05

pollution capacity Neopx comes with

27:07

a self watering planter called the shell So

27:09

you only have to water it every two

27:12

to three weeks My existing air

27:14

purifiers at home make up a fair amount of

27:16

my electricity bill But with neopx I can get

27:18

clean air with just some sun and water and

27:20

it looks great in my home When

27:23

you purchase neopx you'll receive six

27:25

power drop sachets But to celebrate

27:27

the launch on this podcast neoplants

27:29

is offering a seven sachet free

27:32

of charge That's one extra

27:34

month of pure air go to

27:36

neoplants.com/legal AF and the code will

27:38

be applied Automatically at checkout drop

27:40

shipping available within the US and

27:42

soon to many more countries with

27:44

a grown family I've been trying

27:47

to save even more money, but

27:49

it seemed like my bank account was stuck Thankfully

27:52

I heard about rocket money and gave it a

27:54

try it turns out I had a

27:57

number of subscriptions I was paying for it that

27:59

I'd forgotten about Rocket Money

28:01

helped me cancel some of them, and now I

28:03

have more money than before. Rocket

28:05

Money is a personal finance app that

28:08

finds and cancels your unwanted subscriptions,

28:11

monitors your spending, and helps

28:13

lower your bills so that you can grow your

28:15

savings. I can see all of my subscriptions in

28:17

one place, and if I see something I don't

28:19

want, Rocket Money can help me

28:21

cancel it with a few taps. I

28:23

love how the dashboard shows me this month's

28:26

spending compared to last month, so I can

28:28

clearly see my spending habits. Plus,

28:30

they'll help me create a custom budget and

28:32

keep my spending on track. Rocket Money will

28:34

even try to negotiate to lower your bills

28:37

for you by up to 20%. All

28:40

you have to do is submit a picture of

28:42

your bill, and Rocket Money takes care of the

28:44

rest. They'll deal with customer

28:46

service for you. Rocket Money has over

28:48

5 million users and has saved a

28:51

total of 500 million in

28:53

canceled subscriptions, saving members up to $740

28:55

a year when

28:58

using all of the app's features. With

29:01

Rocket Money, I have full

29:03

control over my subscriptions and

29:05

a clear view of my

29:07

expenses. Stop wasting money on

29:09

things you don't use. Cancel

29:11

your unwanted subscriptions by going

29:13

to rocketmoney.com/legalaf. That's rocketmoney.com/ legalaf.

29:17

rocketmoney.com/legalaf. Michael

29:22

Popock, I went so rogue during

29:24

the break that you don't want

29:26

to co-host the show with me.

29:29

Pesky, rogue Ben decided, and you said, hey,

29:32

I still want to do this show with

29:34

you. No, no, better. I'm giving

29:36

you a bonus. I'm giving you an extra bonus.

29:40

I mean, it's points

29:42

like that, though, where we shouldn't

29:46

lose the overall forest for the trees

29:49

here. We need to sometimes take a

29:51

step back and say, This

29:53

doesn't make sense, this doesn't make sense,

29:56

and the defenses are so foolish when

29:58

you actually kind of talk. About

30:00

it like that. And so I think

30:02

it's important that we frame it that

30:05

way. And the prosecution of course you

30:07

know they're so in the we'd Sometimes

30:09

it's important that they take a step

30:11

back and go look for the jury.

30:14

Sometimes it's as simple points like that

30:16

that will be kind of most effective

30:18

here. I want to talk about this

30:20

lawsuit very briefly. The Stephanie Clifford goes

30:23

by this the name Stormy Daniels. Would.

30:27

When. She does what she does

30:29

on vs. Donald Trump. Ah, here's

30:31

a court order that the court

30:34

can take judicial notice of. These

30:36

were stipulations that were made by

30:38

Trump in this civil lawsuit that

30:41

I think are gonna be pretty

30:43

damaging to Donald Trump as the

30:45

courts as. A. Plaintiff

30:47

has also submitted defendant referring

30:50

to Trump and Essential Consulting.

30:52

That's when Trump and Co

30:54

In were working together as

30:56

a joint opposition that they

30:58

filed back on June one,

31:00

twenty eighteen in the District

31:03

court, in which Defendant. Trump

31:05

and Cohen admit and

31:07

confirm. That. Defendant reimbursed Easy,

31:10

which was Cohen's a shell

31:12

company or hundred and thirty

31:14

thousand dollar payment to Plaintiff

31:17

pursuant to the terms of

31:19

the agreement. Thus, in their

31:21

June First Twenty Eighteen Opposition

31:23

brief in this action, Easy

31:25

Essential Consulting which is Cohen

31:27

and Defend and Trump admitted

31:30

that Defendant reimbursed. Cohen

31:32

One hundred and thirty thousand

31:35

dollars to plaintiffs which was

31:37

paid and consideration for plaintiffs

31:39

promises not to disclose information

31:41

pertaining to. david

31:44

denison and and why they were

31:46

stipulating to that and twenty eighteen

31:48

as they wanted to try to

31:50

keep store daniels on the magazine

31:52

or why would they even stipulate

31:55

this they wanted a keeper subjective

31:57

the confidentiality and non discos disclosure

31:59

order Right, so they wanted it

32:01

to apply to David

32:03

Dennison at that point They wanted Trump

32:05

to be David Dennison So that Stormy

32:07

Daniels would be bound by the agreement

32:10

and that she could be sued for

32:12

going public with it So

32:14

you have documents like that that the jury's

32:16

going to see they have not seen that

32:18

one yet They have not

32:20

seen the checks yet, but here's

32:22

a check that's signed by Donald

32:24

Trump Being Donald

32:26

Trump paying Michael Cohen right there. That's

32:29

Donald Trump's signature. There are 11 total

32:31

checks I think

32:33

eight of them or so have

32:35

Donald Trump's signature on him The

32:37

other ones have other people at

32:39

the Trump organization So the jury's

32:41

gonna actually then see that Trump

32:43

paid Cohen after all of this

32:46

and my point earlier Well, if

32:48

you claim that Cohen was rogue, why

32:50

would you then pay him that? What

32:53

the jury has seen though already

32:55

through a C-SPAN Archivist

32:57

who had to fly in

32:59

and testify because Trump wouldn't

33:01

stipulate was Donald Trump praising

33:03

Michael Cohen After Trump was

33:06

elected after Cohen made the

33:08

payments to Stormy Daniels After

33:11

Donald Trump is on an audio

33:13

recording Acknowledging to Michael

33:15

Cohen that he's aware of Cohen setting

33:17

up all of these shell companies

33:19

and accounts This is what Donald Trump

33:21

had to say about Cohen in real time

33:24

After Trump was aware that Cohen was

33:26

making the payments to Stormy Daniels here

33:28

play this clip And

33:31

by the way, we just found out I was coming down

33:33

Michael Cohen I was being come Michael Cohen is a very

33:35

talented lawyer is a good lawyer in my firm Let's

33:39

just play that even one more time just so you can

33:41

hear it This is what

33:43

Trump has to say about Michael Cohen after

33:46

he's aware that Cohen made those I missed

33:48

the rogue comment Let's hear it again. And

33:51

by the way, we just found out I was coming down

33:53

Michael Cohen I was being come Michael Cohen is a very

33:55

talented lawyer is a good lawyer in my firm That

33:58

Was what he was saying in real time. I'm

34:00

let me show you some other

34:02

things that the jury has seen

34:04

already to the jury seen messages

34:07

like this one: Polls close as

34:09

is from October Sixteen Twenty sixteen

34:11

Donald Trump wrote polls Close But

34:13

can you believe I lost. Large.

34:16

Numbers of women voters based

34:18

on made up events that

34:20

never happened. Media rigging election

34:22

The jury saw October Eleven

34:24

Twenty sixteen. the very foul mouth

34:26

John Mccain begged for my support

34:29

during his primary. I gave

34:31

he won than drop me over

34:33

locker room remarks. The jury saw

34:36

this statement. On can't believe

34:38

these totally phony stories one hundred

34:40

percent made up by women many

34:42

already proven false and push big

34:45

time by press have impact. The.

34:47

Jury's seen this post by

34:49

Donald Trump or recently I

34:51

did nothing wrong in the

34:53

Horse Face case. Never

34:55

had an affair with her. Just

34:57

and in the just. Another false

34:59

acquisition by a sleaze bag. Which.

35:02

And the jury seen the bank account

35:04

as statements from First Republic Bank with

35:06

Cohen opening up the bank account. I'm

35:08

the jury the you know our and

35:10

then go back. go back to the

35:13

last one. Which will

35:15

make them look into Friday in

35:17

typo. Never had an affair with

35:19

her, just another false act with

35:21

this in. Mind as

35:24

leads bags he met accusation. What?

35:26

He really did as he bought her silence.

35:28

I was acquisition sometimes and we know now

35:31

from Hope Hicks right? only he and Dance

35:33

give you know ran his his media and

35:35

did tweeting. So. That's his. Anyway,

35:39

go ahead. sorry. And then this is

35:41

what Donald Trump was saying while he

35:43

was campaigning in June of twenty sixteen.

35:45

The jury saw this as well through

35:47

the sea Archivist to testified. Play this

35:49

with. As you fc. right?

35:52

Now I am being viciously

35:54

attacked. With. Lies and

35:56

smears. It's

35:59

a phony. I have

36:01

no idea who these women are.

36:03

I have no idea. I have

36:05

no idea. And I think you all

36:08

know I have no idea because you understand

36:10

me for a lot of years. Okay? When

36:18

you looked at that horrible woman last night,

36:20

you said, I don't think so. I don't

36:23

think so. Whoever she

36:25

is, wherever she comes from, the

36:28

stories are total fiction.

36:32

They're 100% made up.

36:35

They never happened. They

36:37

never would happen. I

36:39

don't think that happened with very many people, but

36:42

they certainly aren't going to happen with me. So

36:47

I wanted to show the evidence as

36:50

well. Testimony is evidence, but I

36:52

also wanted to show the evidence

36:54

there, the documents, the text messages,

36:57

the tweets. The jury

36:59

has seen a lot of text messages in

37:01

real time from David Pecker

37:04

and Howard Dillon who

37:06

run the National Enquirer,

37:08

but the jury saw those videos. How

37:11

powerful do you think that is? Let's

37:13

talk about with

37:16

the other witnesses who have testified, then the jury

37:18

sees that. Take it away, Popo. Thanks,

37:21

Ben. I've said in the past, with

37:24

you and me and in Hot Takes, that

37:26

while technically, technically all evidence

37:28

is sort of created equally.

37:32

Juries weigh it. Juries weigh witness

37:34

credibility, but there is no

37:36

in the law, there is no

37:38

difference between a

37:41

piece of documentary evidence,

37:43

inferential evidence, hearsay

37:46

that's properly admitted evidence, testimonial

37:48

evidence, audio, video. It all

37:51

has the same potential

37:53

weight depending upon how

37:55

it's ultimately weighed by the jury, but one

37:57

is not better than the other. The law

37:59

doesn't say... Well, if you have an audio

38:01

clip, well, that's it. Well, do you have

38:03

a video? The video is better. It's not

38:05

like there's a priority. Video is better than

38:07

audio. Audio is better than documents. Documents are

38:10

better than witnesses. Circumstantial

38:12

evidence is not like that.

38:14

Everything has given equal

38:16

merit under the law subject to weighing

38:18

by the jury as the trier of

38:20

fact. However, having said

38:22

that, the reality for trial

38:25

lawyers like you and me and jurors

38:27

like this is that

38:29

certain evidence does

38:31

blow their mind more and change the weather

38:33

in the room more when

38:36

played, as we talked about at the

38:38

very beginning, in the right sequence at

38:40

the right time with momentum, internal logic

38:42

by a masterful presentation by

38:44

the prosecutors or a defendant if we're

38:46

talking about the defendants. And when you

38:48

play a clip and then

38:51

you put on evidence to show that

38:53

clip is a lie. And by this

38:55

time, frankly, the jury knows going in

38:58

that Donald Trump lied to

39:00

the American people about his

39:02

extramarital sexual activity. They

39:05

already know about the Access Hollywood tape. They knew about

39:07

it before they even got into the jury box, but

39:09

they certainly know about it now. They

39:12

know about the hot mic moment, about attacking

39:14

women. They know going in, even though

39:16

they can be fair and impartial, that Donald

39:19

Trump's already been a judge by another jury

39:21

twice of being a rapist

39:23

and a defamer and a

39:25

punitive damage award-over in the

39:27

Eugene Carroll matter. They

39:29

know already that he paid off

39:32

these people because it's

39:34

not that big of a leap because he did it and

39:36

he didn't want it to see the light of day. Hope

39:40

Hicks gave credence to

39:42

that, that Donald Trump cared

39:44

about what the voters thought about him when

39:47

it came to these things. And we have

39:49

the audio tapes that have already started to

39:51

be played, including Michael Cohen's,

39:53

and that has a powerful impact

39:56

when you hear the participants and

39:58

the conspiracy talking about About

40:00

the establishment of a phony shell companies

40:02

at the payments have to be made

40:04

with Donald Trump or to spreading the

40:06

in the costs and directing the costs

40:08

that have to be made. Nodding cast.

40:10

Better to wait. There's a paper trail

40:12

of our and that and and talking

40:14

about how much are we paying this

40:17

time. A where is it Coming from

40:19

Donald Trump Following up to David Packer,

40:21

the publisher of The National Enquirer about

40:23

How's Our Girl Harem. Carry Mcdougall

40:25

who who he paid off oh she's

40:27

being quiet. What do we do about

40:29

carriage after terrorists and and and hope

40:32

access to fight about this after Care

40:34

and Mcdougall ah you know decided to

40:36

go on on Anderson Cooper and and

40:38

oh we should pay more money A

40:41

how do we get her to stop

40:43

talking and the conversations that she had

40:45

a damage control opec's around that they've

40:47

heard all of this. I'm telling you

40:49

where the jury was a dim the

40:52

lights like we used to do as

40:54

they roll. The tape. Of

40:56

Cnn. And. Then all

40:58

of these disparate pieces. And then

41:01

quickly the prosecutors put these puzzle

41:03

pieces together for the jury. right?

41:05

And big pieces as the Nyt. this

41:07

whole story together. it's just. it's just

41:09

supremely powerful into my point. I wanted

41:12

to bring it up here again. They're.

41:14

Following a scripts I talk about

41:17

it in a hot take but

41:19

in particular a year ago. A

41:21

year ago, the prosecutors. As.

41:24

They're required to do filed a

41:27

statement of facts along with the

41:29

a document and we are now

41:31

by my count. We're. Moving

41:33

through the first to Roman numerals

41:35

and all those paragraphs with the

41:37

witnesses weird that if to the

41:39

first segment. Packer. Wrote

41:42

a grass. Keith

41:44

save a sin though the the guy

41:46

over first Republic Bay Kopecks and now

41:48

we're moving quickly and rapidly. If people

41:51

want know where we are in this

41:53

for five or six week trial by

41:55

Mike out where now into the section

41:57

labeled of the state but of fi.

42:02

Roman. Numeral to the defendants falsified

42:04

business records and we've already made

42:06

substantial progress. Their I know two

42:08

witnesses that they're definitely going to

42:10

be bringing him because they mention.

42:12

Of. The. Trump Organisation Control or

42:15

a Macaw just because he would

42:17

just avoided jail time the first

42:19

time around and is now has

42:21

left the company. He's gonna testify

42:24

and whoever the Trump Organisation accounts

42:26

payable supervisor this is gonna be

42:28

fascinating does the bodies but important

42:31

testimony to prove the case that

42:33

person's coming and remember or to

42:35

remind our audience. You. Know

42:37

who knows the Trump organization and

42:39

the individual people's responsibilities for things

42:42

like record Better than even Donald

42:44

Trump. The Manhattan prosecutors the

42:46

Da's office because they already tried

42:48

a case two years ago as

42:50

a dress rehearsal, getting a seventeen

42:52

counts felony conviction against to of

42:54

Donald Trump's major companies for falsification

42:56

a business records and tax fraud.

42:59

They. Know who these people are, what they're

43:01

going to say, That they've already interviewed

43:03

them to prepare them for their testimonies. if

43:06

interviewed all of these people before of their

43:08

testimony To anybody that thinks that they did

43:10

talk to Hope Hicks through her council before

43:12

she takes the stand David Packers before he

43:14

took the stand, Michael Cohen before he takes

43:17

the stance that the prosecutors are ready don't

43:19

that there there are would wonder what both

43:21

wonder what this witnesses go to say that

43:23

that that's not how this works. They.

43:25

Know exactly what these people are going to say or

43:28

they wouldn't put them understand. As

43:30

a just one last point on this

43:32

the confidence. And I wanted.

43:34

That's another shout out to the prosecutors.

43:36

The confidence of the prosecutors have shown

43:38

by cutting out why superglue at telling

43:41

have no, no, you're right to time

43:43

convicted felon related to false statements you

43:45

say Rikers Island even though you were

43:47

the chief financial officer that worked out

43:49

the bookkeeping. And worked on that. How

43:52

to get Michael Cohen paid well went through you.

43:54

We. Don't need you. We. Have enough

43:56

that showed me so much confidence

43:58

in their case. If I was at

44:00

the defense, I'd be like, crap, they don't even

44:03

want Weisselberg. He's staying in jail for this. We're

44:06

cooked. Which explains, just back to

44:08

my original point, the 20-minute opening

44:10

by Todd Blanche. Let me

44:12

ask you something, Ben. Where do you

44:14

think Todd Blanche is? Why is he not

44:17

doing these key witnesses? And we haven't really

44:19

seen him except for the gag order arguments

44:22

and at the opening statement time. I

44:24

think when there was the initial

44:26

contempt hearing and the judge said,

44:28

you're losing all credibility before me

44:31

and Todd Blanche was caught flat-footed.

44:34

He looked weak. He didn't

44:36

have good answers. It

44:38

was a very, very just overall

44:40

weak presentation. I think

44:42

that Trump basically

44:44

tapped Emil Beaub, the other lawyer,

44:46

who by the way, I'm told

44:49

is a very good lawyer, used

44:52

to be a federal prosecutor with

44:55

a very good reputation. And

44:57

so I think they turned it

44:59

over to Emil Beaub. Interestingly, Donald

45:02

Trump has Todd Blanche just kind

45:04

of at his side during

45:06

those bizarre press conferences. And in

45:09

a moment, I wanna chat with

45:11

you about one of those where

45:13

Todd Blanche has really been, has

45:16

neutered the right word to use. Yes.

45:21

He's lost all

45:23

credibility, not just in the

45:26

courtroom, but amongst other

45:28

lawyers too. So

45:30

any reputation that Todd Blanche was

45:32

a good lawyer, he's

45:34

destroyed his reputation. I hope he's

45:37

enjoying whatever checks that Donald Trump's

45:39

political action committee's paying him because

45:41

he's a joke right now. Like

45:43

lawyers that I talked to who

45:45

once respected him, like laugh at

45:48

this guy behind his back. His

45:51

reputation is in tatters. And just think about

45:53

it. You have Donald Trump at this press

45:55

conference claiming that the

45:57

gag order prevents him.

46:00

from testifying at trial despite Donald

46:02

Trump saying that he was going

46:04

to testify at trial, then he

46:06

turns to Todd Blanche, looks at

46:08

Todd Blanche and says, that's right,

46:10

right, the gag order prevents me,

46:12

and then Todd Blanche shakes his

46:15

head, yes, like that's accurate

46:17

and everybody knows that's just false,

46:19

you know, and so Todd Blanche

46:21

became no better than Alina Haber,

46:24

almost the same way that Chris

46:26

Kice became no better

46:28

than Alina Haber when they tried

46:30

the case. Trump makes people worse.

46:34

He surrounds himself with

46:36

already bad people, but

46:38

if you are competent,

46:41

you have to be, he

46:43

makes you worse, you have to just listen

46:46

to whatever he says, you can't have any

46:48

modicum of independence, but that's what I think

46:50

happened, that's what I think happened there, Pope.

46:52

I think you're totally right, I think you're

46:54

totally right about that. I mean, we

46:57

said early on, you know, that's the

47:00

good thing about legal AF, we had the continuity

47:02

of our follow through, and you and I can

47:04

talk about things, we talked about three months, six

47:06

months, two years ago, three years ago, with recall,

47:09

you know, we said with him

47:11

and Chris Kice, there was a reason

47:14

that their big American lawyer,

47:17

200 law firms kicked them out or they left

47:19

those firms, set up their own shops by themselves

47:22

as a captive law firm for

47:24

one client. That's what happened. Both Chris Kice

47:26

and Todd Blanche left their law firm, set

47:28

up their own separate shops of

47:30

two and three persons total to represent one

47:32

client and make millions of dollars. Chris Kice

47:34

has got like five and a half million,

47:36

Alina Haber has gotten five and a half

47:39

to 10 million, Todd Blanche has gotten

47:41

five and a half to 10 million for these couple of

47:43

guys that are running around here, doing

47:45

whatever they're trying to do here. And

47:47

the rumor is, you know,

47:50

in the reporting that Blanche

47:52

wants to be like Attorney General

47:54

or White House counsel, if God

47:56

forbid there's the restoration of the

47:58

Trump presidency. We have to do everything

48:00

we can to make sure that doesn't happen politically illegally.

48:03

But that's why he's sacrificing his

48:06

professional reputation on the altar of Donald

48:08

Trump's greed and lust for power. You

48:11

know, I always tell my law students

48:13

at USC, I teach law

48:15

school and I teach undergrad at USC

48:18

Law at the Gould School. And I

48:20

always tell them, I'm like, look, if

48:22

you want to be very

48:24

wealthy and make huge amounts of

48:26

money, do not go

48:28

into law for that reason. Go

48:31

into law because you love the practice

48:33

of law and you want to do

48:35

right and you care about law and

48:37

order, and then perhaps the money will

48:40

come. I mean, all these

48:42

shows like Suits and others that

48:44

even show lawyers being incredibly

48:47

wealthy and having mega mansions, I

48:49

mean, there's a very small portion

48:51

of lawyers that kind of do

48:53

that money at the

48:55

highest of high levels. But that's

48:57

actually not most lawyers. That's not

48:59

to say that lawyers don't do

49:01

well. But

49:04

what you see here is how

49:07

easily enticed someone like

49:09

a Blanche is. And the point I want

49:11

to make is doing it for money because

49:14

Trump's political action committee is paying

49:16

them more than they've ever seen

49:18

in their life. And

49:20

these are people who in their

49:22

careers, for whatever reason, Alina Habba

49:24

feeling that her career, well, never

49:27

having a real career to begin

49:29

with and doing like parking garage

49:31

law near Bedminster, someone like a

49:33

Chris Kice who just wants to

49:36

be wildly wealthy, someone

49:38

like Todd Blanche wants to

49:40

be wildly wealthy, leaving their firms,

49:42

which pay them good money,

49:44

but not mega wealth, but

49:47

sacrificing their reputation and their

49:49

career for these million dollar

49:52

checks that are paid for

49:54

not by Donald Trump, but

49:57

by Mr. and Mrs. Magadonia.

50:00

People who are out there

50:02

complaining about all of the things that

50:04

donald trump tries to jen up about

50:07

the economy but are so willing to

50:09

give donald trump their life savings so

50:11

that a reported billionaire can go and

50:13

pay tod blanche all of this money

50:16

pop up a little bit more about

50:18

that i want to talk about where

50:20

this trial is going a lot still

50:22

to discuss but let's take our last

50:25

ad break of the show. Lumen

50:27

is the world's first handheld metabolic coach

50:29

it's a device that measures your metabolism

50:32

through your breath. And

50:34

on the app it lets you know

50:36

if you're burning fat or carbs and

50:38

gives you tailored guidance to improve your

50:40

nutrition workout sleep and even stress management

50:42

all you have to do is breathe

50:45

into your lumen first thing in the

50:47

morning and you'll know what's going on

50:49

with your metabolism whether you're

50:51

burning mostly fat or carbs.

50:54

Then lumen gives you a personalized

50:56

nutrition plan for that day based

50:59

on your measurements and

51:01

you can also breathe into it before and

51:03

after workouts and meals so you know

51:05

exactly what's going on in your body in real time

51:08

and lumen will give you tips to keep you on

51:10

top of your health game. Your

51:12

metabolism is your body's engine it's how your

51:14

body turns the food you eat into fuel

51:17

that keeps you going because your

51:19

metabolism is at the center of everything your

51:21

body does. Optimal metabolic

51:23

health translates to a bunch

51:25

of benefits, including easier weight

51:27

management improved energy levels

51:30

better fitness results better sleep

51:32

etc lumen gives you recommendations

51:34

to improve your metabolic health.

51:37

It can also track your cycle

51:39

and for women the onset of

51:41

menopause and adjust your recommendations to

51:43

keep your metabolism healthy through hormonal

51:45

shifts so you can keep

51:47

up your energy and stay off cravings.

51:50

The key to metabolic health is

51:52

something called metabolic flexibility and that's

51:55

where lumen really shines it refers

51:57

to your body's ability to efficiently

51:59

switch between. using different fuel sources

52:01

like carbs and fats. There are

52:03

preferred times to use each, and

52:06

how well you can switch places you

52:08

on the metabolic flexibility spectrum. And after

52:10

getting to know you through your breath,

52:13

Lumen gives you a metabolic flex score that

52:15

you can track and improve upon. So if

52:17

you want to take the next step in

52:20

improving your health, go to lumen.me

52:23

and use LegalAF to get $100 off

52:25

your Lumen. That's L-U-M-E-N.M-E

52:27

and use LegalAF at

52:29

checkout for $100

52:32

off. Thank you, Lumen, for sponsoring this

52:34

episode. Look at my recording studio. You

52:36

don't think I worry about window treatments?

52:38

You don't think I care about privacy?

52:40

Look at the windows behind me. I

52:44

need window treatments. And now finally, there's

52:46

a better way to buy blinds and

52:48

window treatments. It's called 3-Day Blinds. They're

52:50

the leading manufacturer of custom window treatments

52:52

in the US. And right now they're

52:54

running a buy one, get one 50%

52:56

off deal. We can shop for almost

53:00

anything at home. Why not shop for

53:02

blinds at home too? 3-Day Blinds has

53:04

local, professionally trained design consultants who have

53:06

an average of 10 years

53:08

or more of experience that provide expert guidance

53:11

on the right blinds for you in the

53:13

comfort of your home. Just set up

53:15

an appointment and you'll get a free

53:17

no obligation quote the same day. Not

53:19

very handy. I'm not. The expert team

53:22

at 3-Day Blinds handles all the heavy

53:24

lifting. They design, measure, and install so

53:26

you can sit back, relax, and leave

53:28

it to the pros. There's a better

53:30

way to buy blinds and window treatments.

53:33

It's called 3-Day Blinds. They're the leading

53:35

manufacturer of custom window treatments in the

53:37

US. 3-Day Blinds has

53:39

been in business for 45 years.

53:42

And you may not hear it in the name,

53:44

but they make an incredibly high

53:47

quality product. That's why they

53:49

are the highest rated blinds company on

53:51

Trustpilot at 4.7 out of 5 stars.

53:54

No matter your unique need, from motorization

53:56

to home automation to room darkening or

53:59

child safety, with 3-day blinds you choose

54:01

from thousands of options that fit any

54:03

budget or style and with actual samples

54:06

you won't be guessing about what your

54:08

blinds will look like. Right

54:10

now you can get 3-day blinds, buy one, get

54:12

one 50% off deal on

54:15

custom blinds, shades, shutters

54:18

and drapery for a

54:21

free no charge no obligation

54:23

consultation just head to 3dayblinds.com/legalaf

54:25

that's buy one get one

54:28

50% off

54:30

when you head

54:32

to 3dayblinds.com/legalaf one

54:34

last time that's the

54:37

number three

54:39

d-a-y blinds.com/legalaf

54:43

thank you to our pro-democracy

54:45

sponsors the discount codes are

54:47

in the description below it's

54:50

really helpful to continue to grow

54:52

this network we're grateful for the

54:54

support of those pro-democracy sponsors also

54:56

one of the ways we grow

54:59

the show and grow the network

55:01

is through our patreon p-a-t-r-e-o-n.com/legalaf

55:04

we have

55:06

two new

55:08

videos that

55:11

I gave now that my USC

55:13

lectures are done for this semester I'm

55:16

up and running giving lectures on patreon

55:18

popok you're giving a ton of lectures

55:20

on patreon so if people wanted to

55:23

kind of just dig deeper into these

55:25

topics and really geek out with us

55:27

on the law and just see what

55:29

it would be like to be in

55:31

a law school class with michael popok

55:34

or myself that's the place to do

55:36

it patreon.com slash legalaf

55:38

popok during the ad break I couldn't

55:40

help but reflect as I was talking

55:43

about lawyers and responding

55:45

to your question just seeing

55:47

the dynamic of all different

55:49

lawyers aiding and abetting certain

55:51

types of conduct on

55:53

full display in this criminal trial I

55:55

mean you have Michael Cohen who's going

55:57

to be testifying soon who's now a

56:00

disbarred lawyer who got disbarred essentially

56:02

for doing work for Donald Trump

56:04

that he shouldn't have done. And

56:07

Cohen right now quite literally

56:09

has a podcast called Maya Culpa.

56:11

And Cohen's been saying, I screwed

56:13

up. I made mistakes.

56:15

I'm warning you don't make the

56:17

mistakes that I made. Hey,

56:20

I'm just giving you the red

56:22

flag. This didn't have to happen

56:24

to me. I screwed up, which

56:26

I appreciate. People deserve second chances.

56:28

And that's what Cohen's doing. Then

56:31

you have in the courtroom though,

56:33

people like Todd Blanche outside in

56:35

the courtroom, you got people like

56:37

Alina Haber who are next

56:39

iterations, if you will, of,

56:42

of, of, of what we've seen

56:44

before with Trump lawyers. Then

56:47

in the courtroom also, you have

56:49

the testimony of people like Keith

56:51

Davidson, who's a lawyer, but he

56:53

was doing these kind of

56:55

strange settlement deals where it's not

56:57

really clear what the claim was,

56:59

but they were treating them like

57:02

legal settlements for hush money payments

57:04

that were being done like Davidson

57:06

and Cohen and national inquirer. So

57:08

I just kept on

57:10

thinking about the role of attorneys, the

57:13

role of lawyers. And then you have

57:15

the prosecution standing up for law and

57:17

order and Trump attacking

57:19

the prosecutors and attacking the judicial system.

57:22

I don't know. I wanted to reflect

57:24

on that. You're totally right. And

57:26

there's going to be more lawyers in this case

57:28

that are going to be testifying, which is not

57:30

just going to be the strange situation of Keith

57:32

Davidson, who a lot of, a

57:34

lot of commentators misinterpreted his demeanor. They

57:37

were like, he seems uncomfortable talking about

57:39

some of the deals he did for

57:42

Tina Tequila and this one and that

57:44

one. Yeah. He seemed to be the

57:46

go-to lawyer when people had sex or

57:48

some sort of interaction

57:50

with a celebrity and then,

57:52

you know, they were going to go

57:54

public with it, which they're allowed to do. They want

57:56

to write a book. They want to go national inquirer,

57:58

social media, YouTube, they can. And then he

58:00

would just, as a public service, offer

58:03

to not go public if they were willing to get paid

58:05

another way. I mean, these people were going to get paid

58:08

one way or the other. Sir You

58:29

have nothing, if you have nothing to hide, then

58:31

Donald Trump just goes deep into his pocket and

58:34

he pays off Stormy Daniels and we have no

58:36

trial to talk about. But the

58:38

way through a Rube Goldberg contraption, he

58:40

paid all of this. It's the coverup

58:43

and the crime. And then

58:45

of course, Michael Cohen, but to your

58:47

point, not the only lawyer that's going to

58:49

testify about, you know, he's got clients.

58:51

So he's got to pick his way through

58:53

the attorney client privilege. I thought his answers

58:56

were more, he was more pensive and

58:58

reticent and more just the facts because he

59:00

was worried about his attorney client relationships and

59:02

privilege and ethical issues. And

59:04

that's why what we were watching him, not that he was squirming

59:06

and having to answer those questions and like, who cares

59:09

if that's how he made a living. They try

59:11

to make the, they try to make that day

59:13

that Keith Davidson is an extortionist day. Who

59:16

cares? This is not a

59:18

case about state versus Keith Davidson.

59:20

This is a case about Donald Trump

59:22

willingly participating in this scheme in order

59:25

to prevent himself from not getting elected

59:27

or not losing the election. We know

59:29

there's at least two more witnesses coming

59:31

up because back to my, back

59:34

to my handy trustee statement of

59:36

facts by the prosecutor.

59:38

Remember every paragraph in this statement that they made

59:40

a year ago and filed with the court and

59:42

gave to Trump, they know they can prove multiple

59:44

ways or they would not have written it at

59:47

all. I mean, they wrote exactly what

59:49

they can prove and no more. They

59:52

got at least two more lawyers. They

59:54

got mainly involved with Donald Trump trying

59:56

to make back channel messaging to Michael

59:58

Cohen to stay quiet. and

1:00:02

take one for the team in going to

1:00:04

prison, which Michael ultimately got

1:00:06

convicted of doing. So there's two more

1:00:09

lawyers, a lawyer C and a lawyer

1:00:11

D, that are gonna end up

1:00:13

having to testify to on

1:00:15

paragraphs 38 and 39, back

1:00:20

in the mid April of 2018 period. We

1:00:22

haven't even gotten that part of the

1:00:24

trial, but we will and we'll see

1:00:27

more lawyers that did not cover themselves

1:00:29

in any glory in doing Donald Trump's

1:00:31

bidding. And or as we've said before,

1:00:33

skirted with disaster, C Rudy

1:00:36

Giuliani, and

1:00:39

all the other lawyers indicted or convicted

1:00:41

in the various states along with Donald

1:00:44

Trump who worked for Donald Trump at one

1:00:46

time. Popak, let's look

1:00:48

ahead now in addition to those

1:00:50

lawyer witnesses to what

1:00:52

else we expect to happen in this upcoming

1:00:55

week. How long do

1:00:57

we expect this trial to last?

1:00:59

It does seem to be moving

1:01:01

rather quickly. Justice

1:01:03

Mershan has a firm grip on

1:01:06

the courtroom, really has an

1:01:08

iron fist on, he

1:01:11

has not yet fully dropped the

1:01:13

hammer to incarcerate Donald Trump yet,

1:01:15

but there's been already the contempt

1:01:18

finding that was made regarding nine

1:01:20

separate gag order violations. Earlier this

1:01:22

week, there were four additional gag

1:01:24

order violations that were brought before

1:01:27

Justice Mershan in a second contempt

1:01:29

hearing. Mershan's yet to rule there,

1:01:31

we expect him to rule soon

1:01:33

as well. The Midas

1:01:35

Touch Network and our editorial team

1:01:38

has identified more gag order violations

1:01:40

of Donald Trump. On Thursday night,

1:01:42

he posted a video from a

1:01:45

social media app called Rumble from

1:01:47

the Steve Bannon show. It

1:01:49

was Andrew Giuliani and some other

1:01:51

right-wing hosts who were attacking the

1:01:53

judge's daughter. And

1:01:56

at the very beginning of the video,

1:01:58

you hear them attack the judges. daughter

1:02:00

and then attack the judge's gag order

1:02:02

that's in place. And

1:02:04

so it clearly seems intentional and

1:02:07

willful right there. I'm looking

1:02:09

to see if on Monday, um, we're

1:02:11

going to see the prosecution bring

1:02:14

up those violations, but, uh, look, the

1:02:16

case has been progressing rather quickly, it's

1:02:18

possible we're going to have a verdict

1:02:20

in the next four to six weeks.

1:02:22

I want to get your take on

1:02:25

that. Yeah. When do you think Cohen's

1:02:27

going to testify? But let me just

1:02:29

read this to you from George Conway,

1:02:31

what he had to say about Michael

1:02:33

Cohen. He said that all of the

1:02:36

testimony he's heard in court, Conway's been

1:02:38

in court so far corroborates everything that

1:02:40

Cohen has said about the case. And

1:02:43

every bit of testimony that has come out

1:02:45

shows Cohen has come clean and is telling

1:02:47

the truth about that. Now they're going to

1:02:49

go after him and say, well, you submitted

1:02:51

this form to the taxi commission, you said

1:02:53

this to this judge, they're going to go

1:02:55

through all sorts of stuff. And it's like,

1:02:57

so what, tell me, what is

1:02:59

it that Michael Cohen is lying about on

1:03:01

the witness stand as it relates

1:03:04

to this case? And they've got

1:03:06

nothing because he's been corroborated by

1:03:08

Pekka. He's been corroborated by his

1:03:10

banker. He's been corroborated by text

1:03:12

messages. He's been corroborated by the

1:03:14

tapes. He recorded of Donald Trump.

1:03:16

He's been corroborated by hope. So

1:03:19

talk about Cohen, talk about other witnesses,

1:03:21

the length of this, uh,

1:03:23

trial. What do you make of

1:03:25

all of that? But if I'm going to use the,

1:03:28

where the prosecutors think they need to

1:03:30

be in terms of their statement of

1:03:32

facts from a year ago and the

1:03:35

pace at which the velocity at which

1:03:37

they've been able to make the first

1:03:39

half of their case, first two Roman

1:03:41

numerals, if you will, now

1:03:43

turning to business record fraud, more

1:03:46

of that, some backfill on the other

1:03:48

points with other witnesses that we know

1:03:50

are coming and then some new, new

1:03:52

issues that have not yet been presented

1:03:54

to the jury, but we know are

1:03:56

coming because they're in that statement of

1:03:58

facts about Michael Cohen. Cohen and

1:04:01

the attempt to silence Michael Cohen or have

1:04:03

him take one for the team for Donald

1:04:05

Trump that Donald Trump was also involved with.

1:04:07

Right, because you're not doing anything wrong. You

1:04:09

want to make sure that Michael Cohen, who

1:04:12

you are now claiming went rogue,

1:04:15

takes one for the team by

1:04:17

lying about your involvement and have

1:04:20

people, lawyers approach Michael Cohen in

1:04:22

order to silence him and or

1:04:24

alter his testimony. That's

1:04:27

what you do. That's what they're going to want

1:04:29

the jury to believe is consistent. So based

1:04:31

on the way they're going at the 11th

1:04:33

day mark now, knowing that it's been about

1:04:37

three and a half trial days a

1:04:39

week because there's been a couple of

1:04:41

extra dark days in there to accommodate

1:04:43

some jury issues and court

1:04:45

issues. I think we're going

1:04:48

to see another three weeks if

1:04:51

they can hang in their pace at four days

1:04:53

a week. And

1:04:57

then we have to add the defense case in

1:04:59

there. So I think the prosecution case is going

1:05:01

to take another 10 to 12 trial days-ish and

1:05:03

then they're

1:05:07

going to rest. Then

1:05:09

the case is going to turn to the defense. The

1:05:12

defense is going to put on, if they

1:05:14

can, their own witnesses. They're going to have

1:05:16

to make the decision about Donald Trump. They've

1:05:19

already told the jury that he may

1:05:22

but may not testify. And

1:05:24

so there'll be a defense case and then

1:05:26

there's a rebuttal case by the prosecution. That's

1:05:29

why even though they're moving at a fast

1:05:31

clip, this still may time out given the

1:05:33

fact that it's not a full work week

1:05:35

during the week. It ends sort of on

1:05:37

time at 4.30, which is great for the

1:05:39

lightest touch legal AF show that you do,

1:05:41

Cameron. They're not like

1:05:43

going, I've been in trials where it starts

1:05:45

at 8.30 in the morning and it

1:05:48

goes to six every day,

1:05:50

five days a week. We're not doing that here.

1:05:53

It's a lighter load that way. Great for

1:05:55

the lawyers because they can get prepared for

1:05:57

the next day. So this could really play

1:05:59

out. six or eight weeks, not

1:06:02

additionally, like another four to five weeks. And then they're

1:06:06

not done, the prosecution,

1:06:10

conditioning the

1:06:12

jury for Michael Cohen's testimony,

1:06:14

bolstering it, if you will, reinforcing

1:06:17

it. So he becomes,

1:06:21

having had every other witness

1:06:23

corroborate and evidence having corroborated

1:06:26

Michael Cohen, Michael Cohen does

1:06:28

not become the wild card

1:06:33

that the defense thinks he's going to

1:06:35

be. Or we know he's gonna

1:06:38

be a human pinata for Donald

1:06:40

Trump, whether it's Blanche or you're right,

1:06:42

Amil Bove doing it, it's, yes,

1:06:45

he's gotta, put on your

1:06:47

hard hat, Michael's gonna take some hits

1:06:49

in terms of credibility. They'll spend the

1:06:52

entire first half of the day talking

1:06:54

about Michael's convictions. I

1:06:56

don't mean that from a moral standpoint, I

1:06:58

mean that from a prison standpoint and his

1:07:00

involvement with all of this. Then

1:07:02

they're gonna have a hard day. I'm

1:07:05

talking about the defense in cross-examination because

1:07:07

Michael's not going to agree with them

1:07:09

and he has the receipts to show

1:07:11

that he's right about that he went

1:07:13

rogue and that this was his idea

1:07:15

out of the selfless bottom of his

1:07:17

heart to help out Donald Trump and

1:07:19

do his solid. I mean, that's gonna

1:07:22

be a bad day in

1:07:24

that section of the cross-examination. By the

1:07:26

time Michael gets there between Pekka and

1:07:28

Hope Hicks and Keith Davidson, we've already

1:07:30

testified, these other lawyers that are gonna

1:07:32

come up there, the people in the

1:07:35

Trump organization like Jeff McConaughey, the

1:07:37

controller, ex-controller, and some lower level

1:07:39

payment people and all of that,

1:07:42

Michael's just gonna be like, you know, just

1:07:45

tying stuff together and putting a name with

1:07:47

a face to people that they've already heard.

1:07:50

They will already have a view of

1:07:52

Michael Cohen, the jury, before Michael Cohen

1:07:54

gets there. And I don't think it's

1:07:56

gonna be overly negative. Everybody knows that

1:07:59

this was sort of a... Successful environment

1:08:01

and facts that make everybody a bit squeamish

1:08:03

at least on the majority side And they're

1:08:05

gonna have to hold their nose on some

1:08:07

of these facts About the

1:08:09

payoff of the women and Michael's

1:08:11

role in it along with his

1:08:13

boss Donald Trump orchestrating it But they'll

1:08:15

by the time Michael gets there.

1:08:17

They'll be so properly conditioned and

1:08:19

almost Normalized about this

1:08:21

is what Conway's saying about

1:08:23

things Michael Michael Cohen

1:08:26

That he will not be the white knuckle moment

1:08:29

that people thought it would be for the

1:08:31

prosecution. Let's remember that Alvin

1:08:34

Bragg Rung

1:08:38

his hands For a

1:08:40

number of months almost a year about

1:08:43

whether to do this case Because

1:08:45

he had to get comfortable with Michael Cohen.

1:08:48

That's the reporting I think Michael Cohen's own

1:08:50

reporting is sort of like that but it's

1:08:52

certainly out of the New York Times is

1:08:54

reported that Alvin needed to get comfortable with

1:08:57

Michael Cohen as a witness and More

1:08:59

importantly how the case would be

1:09:01

presented with all the other corroborating

1:09:04

witnesses and evidence to sort of

1:09:06

take the sting away from the

1:09:09

ultimate cross-examination one day of Michael

1:09:11

Cohen and Alvin Bragg

1:09:13

to his credit and

1:09:15

as and against against tremendous I

1:09:17

mean he was under so much

1:09:19

pressure That

1:09:22

I that few people would have survived

1:09:24

it from a career-wise between

1:09:26

his special prosecutor Mark Pomerance

1:09:29

Coming out right in a book about you

1:09:31

know Either this case should have been brought

1:09:33

and why it should have been brought and

1:09:36

commenting about the evidence and commenting about Michael

1:09:38

Cohen And yet Alvin Bragg talking

1:09:40

about prosecutors and quality lawyering on

1:09:42

this show Stayed the course

1:09:44

got right with Michael Cohen, but more

1:09:46

importantly got right with his prosecution team

1:09:48

and Josh Steinglass And

1:09:50

Matt and Matt Colangelo about

1:09:53

how they were going to

1:09:55

insulate Michael Before

1:09:57

Michael even took the stand so a long-winded way of

1:09:59

saying We're not ready for Michael yet. Michael

1:10:02

is coming further

1:10:04

down the road. The Sand, the classic sandwich

1:10:06

witness, he's not the first, he's not the

1:10:08

last. He's somewhere buried towards the back end.

1:10:10

We're probably a week or two away from

1:10:12

the back end, and then we'll see Michael

1:10:14

Cohen. And look, you and I will spend

1:10:16

a considerable amount of time,

1:10:18

as will Karen, about the Michael Cohen

1:10:21

testimony. But we always have to remember

1:10:23

what came before it as building blocks

1:10:25

in front of this jury, and as

1:10:27

this bell is constantly being rung by

1:10:30

this prosecutor in front of this jury.

1:10:33

Popak, two things I want to

1:10:35

touch upon briefly. We'd be remiss

1:10:37

if we didn't mention how,

1:10:40

while all of this is taking place in a

1:10:43

Manhattan courtroom with this criminal

1:10:45

trial, the Securities and Exchange

1:10:48

Commission has officially charged Donald

1:10:51

Trump's independent auditor, somebody

1:10:53

by the name of

1:10:55

B.F. Borgers. Ben Borgers

1:10:57

is the head of this

1:10:59

company, B.F. Borgers. It's based

1:11:01

in Colorado. They've been charged

1:11:03

with massive fraud, basically running

1:11:06

an audit mill, signing

1:11:08

off on audits

1:11:10

for public companies and

1:11:12

claiming that they're compliant

1:11:15

with the PCAOB standards, which

1:11:17

is the kind of public

1:11:19

accounting gold standard for public

1:11:21

companies when they're actually not

1:11:23

following those standards and they're

1:11:25

just essentially being charged and

1:11:27

accused of just signing off

1:11:29

with anything that comes before

1:11:31

it. And in some cases,

1:11:33

even just using either manipulated

1:11:35

numbers or old numbers that

1:11:37

come from a predecessor accounting firm.

1:11:40

So one of the types of

1:11:42

things that they're being accused of

1:11:44

is, let's say, a real serious,

1:11:47

you know, big four accounting firm or

1:11:50

a firm in the periphery of the

1:11:52

big four, a firm that's adjacent

1:11:55

to it says, hey, we don't really feel

1:11:57

comfortable being the ones to sign our names

1:11:59

on this. because you could be

1:12:01

held liable the same way those accountants

1:12:03

were held liable in the

1:12:05

Enron case. So when you sign these

1:12:07

independent audits, you're also

1:12:10

subjecting yourself to liability. So

1:12:13

if a company or an independent auditor said, we

1:12:16

don't want to be a part of this, and

1:12:18

they have their last work, one of the

1:12:20

things that BF Borgers is basically being accused

1:12:23

of is just not even doing their own

1:12:25

work, just like taking the spreadsheets that they

1:12:27

got and just signing off on it without

1:12:30

really doing any significant diligence. We

1:12:32

previously reported here both based on

1:12:34

our independent reporting, as well as

1:12:36

from the reporting by the Financial

1:12:38

Times a few weeks back that

1:12:41

this BF Borgers had

1:12:43

got a 100% delinquency rate, like it failed 21

1:12:45

of 21 audits by the PCAOB when 21 files

1:12:47

were audited

1:12:54

100% effective. I mean,

1:12:56

that's like pretty impressively defective that

1:12:58

every single file had an issue.

1:13:00

There were local issues. There were

1:13:02

bans of BF Borgers

1:13:04

in Canada, and Trump's prior

1:13:07

accounting firms quit, and they

1:13:09

didn't feel comfortable working for

1:13:12

Trump Media. And remember, Popak, what I

1:13:14

think needs to be talked about here

1:13:16

is the critical time that

1:13:18

this BF Borgers stepped in for

1:13:21

Trump Media. And who

1:13:23

is Trump Media going to use now that

1:13:26

it doesn't even have the audit

1:13:28

mill people to sign off on

1:13:30

it? And then it raises the

1:13:32

broader issue of this is who

1:13:34

Trump surrounds himself with people like

1:13:37

Borgers and BF Borgers versus like

1:13:39

real accounting firms that

1:13:41

you would normally expect to see in situations like this.

1:13:43

It was one of the first things I looked at

1:13:46

when this merger was announced back in, I think it

1:13:48

was late March, like who did the auditor? BF

1:13:51

Borgers. I'm like, who the heck is

1:13:53

BF Borgers? I looked at their office.

1:13:55

I saw this office that looked like

1:13:57

a rest stop bathroom. I saw a

1:14:00

bad and I'm like, this doesn't seem,

1:14:02

I don't know much about borders. I've never

1:14:04

heard of this guy before, but this doesn't

1:14:07

seem legit to me. And I raised the

1:14:09

red flag right away. Look at this guy.

1:14:11

Look at this guy. Look at this. It

1:14:13

was the first thing I said. And if

1:14:15

you all watch, you remember I said that.

1:14:17

I looked at the office. I was like,

1:14:19

what publicly traded, support a billion dollar company

1:14:21

is being audited by something like this. It's

1:14:23

not to say he may, you know, he

1:14:25

may have been a good auditor. I don't

1:14:27

know. It just raised a ton of red

1:14:29

flags and made me like instantly suspicious. But

1:14:31

the SEC charged them. He's agreed to like

1:14:33

a $14 million settlement

1:14:36

and a suspension from ever

1:14:38

appearing before the SEC again.

1:14:41

Um, but I think that that's just a,

1:14:43

it's a data point Popak of like really,

1:14:46

really, and like, it's not a witch

1:14:48

hunt. It's not a this. It's just

1:14:50

really messed up people who this guy

1:14:53

surrounds himself with. And I just want

1:14:55

competence. I just want normal people. I

1:14:57

want skilled people. I want professionals. And

1:15:00

that's what we talk about here a lot.

1:15:02

Professionals, normalcy. The, the MAGA

1:15:04

may want diapers over Dems or

1:15:07

whatever it's called right now to try to

1:15:09

turn back the, uh, the reporting about his

1:15:11

problem is gastro intestinal problems

1:15:14

during, during, um, during

1:15:16

trial. But we want,

1:15:18

as you said, we want and demand

1:15:20

competency. And the boarders thing

1:15:22

is just a long line in a series

1:15:24

of professionals putting too

1:15:26

kind of spin on it. People

1:15:28

that you're supposed to hire as

1:15:31

independence in order to protect

1:15:33

the investing community, um,

1:15:35

uh, the, as a requirement of you to

1:15:37

have a, a, a corporate

1:15:39

license to operate a certain state.

1:15:42

And so does any, is anybody

1:15:44

shocked on our side that

1:15:46

Donald Trump having been fired by his

1:15:49

and his company being fired by his

1:15:51

long time outside auditors, um,

1:15:53

mazers who eventually became witness

1:15:56

for the prosecution or witness for the

1:15:58

attorney general and the civil fraud. case,

1:16:00

not only quit him after 10 years,

1:16:02

but issued a statement that we

1:16:04

reported on two years ago that became critical

1:16:06

to the case against Donald Trump for civil

1:16:09

fraud, which a judge has already

1:16:11

found him to have committed with his family

1:16:13

civil fraud in a crime spree that lasted

1:16:15

over 10 years. And

1:16:17

it's companies, anybody surprised that when they quit,

1:16:19

they also said, and by the way, everything

1:16:21

that we've told the outside world and

1:16:23

counter parties about reliability of our financial

1:16:26

statements that we certified, uh,

1:16:28

is false, you can't rely on them because

1:16:30

we can't rely on the client, which is

1:16:32

Donald Trump. So that's mazers. Then when, uh,

1:16:35

Donald Trump decided to use this SPAC

1:16:37

to go public, the special purpose acquisition

1:16:39

company to go, to go public, he,

1:16:41

as you said, that he had another

1:16:44

auditor that was a decent auditor in

1:16:46

all this, uh, with them Smith and

1:16:48

Brown, which people in that sort of

1:16:50

SPAC world knew, but after

1:16:52

several months, uh, with them Smith and

1:16:54

Brown said, uh, you're

1:16:56

fired, uh, to paraphrase of

1:16:59

the apprentice, we don't want to be a

1:17:01

part of Trump world, even before they went

1:17:03

quote unquote public. And then Donald Trump had

1:17:05

a scramble and who does he find Ben

1:17:07

Borgers who you just found, I was involved

1:17:10

years ago in, in suing

1:17:12

a auditing firm for

1:17:15

a client in Florida, public, a public

1:17:17

client, not publicly traded, but a public

1:17:19

client, a government client down in Florida

1:17:21

and almost the eerily, the same kind

1:17:23

of allegations that they were a mill

1:17:25

that was churning audits and had missed

1:17:27

key things in, in our clients, books

1:17:30

and records that if the board had

1:17:32

known about it, they would have made

1:17:34

some other decisions and instead they lost

1:17:36

millions of dollars. So that's what we

1:17:38

were suing the auditor for. And that's

1:17:40

what the SEC has claimed that Borgers,

1:17:42

that's why there's a hundred percent fail

1:17:45

rate because they were cutting and pasting

1:17:47

and they were churning audits, not doing

1:17:49

the actual work. I can't even believe

1:17:51

based on that rest stop photo of

1:17:54

their office, there's enough people to do

1:17:56

an audit that's required. Now that

1:17:58

would explain why I. saw some weird, you're

1:18:01

talking about red flags. I saw some weird

1:18:03

reporting about a week or two ago, uh,

1:18:05

that said that there were 13

1:18:08

spelling errors of the Trump name

1:18:10

or Trump organization in

1:18:12

the boarders, work papers, or filings. I

1:18:14

was like, well, how do you get

1:18:16

the name of the client wrong? Right.

1:18:18

Because you're cutting and pasting from something

1:18:20

else because you're not doing the work,

1:18:22

you're just doing the doc.

1:18:25

You just making documents. You're making, you're

1:18:27

making audit files without really doing the

1:18:29

audit and, but even

1:18:31

that then talk about, you

1:18:33

know, you're, you know, you're doing bad

1:18:35

and fraudulent things and you're Donald Trump

1:18:37

when even your phony auditor. Made

1:18:40

a disclosure a month ago

1:18:42

that said this company, Trump

1:18:45

media is on the verge and

1:18:47

teetering on bankruptcy. You know, when

1:18:49

they even that company that you're

1:18:52

paying to not really

1:18:54

do an audit had to reveal

1:18:56

that before they were caught by

1:18:58

the SEC in other, in other

1:19:00

fraud, but what you don't have. And that's a

1:19:02

very good point you made, Ben, to

1:19:05

reinforce you and I

1:19:07

from our careers have

1:19:09

worked with and will work with in

1:19:12

all of the professional worlds that

1:19:14

are adjacent to the law, auditing,

1:19:17

accounting, forensic

1:19:19

examination, um, you

1:19:22

know, uh, uh, you know, and

1:19:24

other things like other outside lawyers.

1:19:26

When I was an inside lawyer, hiring

1:19:28

outside lawyers, we worked with

1:19:31

people that were either top

1:19:34

five in their practice areas

1:19:37

or top five firms as

1:19:39

recognized by every credible list or

1:19:42

on the American lawyer, which ranks the

1:19:44

top 200 or 500 law firms somewhere in

1:19:46

the top 10, 20 or 30 of those lists. And

1:19:50

then, or, or invest lawyers or chambers,

1:19:52

all these other rating and review agencies,

1:19:54

uh, that are out there that exist.

1:19:57

And those are the people that we work with. I

1:19:59

could never. As

1:20:01

the Deputy General Counsel and Head

1:20:04

of Litigation globally for a Wall

1:20:06

Street firm, financial services firm, I

1:20:08

could never bring in a

1:20:10

boarders to be

1:20:13

the auditor. My boss and the owner

1:20:15

of the company would say, I'm sorry, excuse

1:20:17

me, who? What is this? Because

1:20:19

you need to be able to look aboard

1:20:21

a public, a regulator

1:20:23

in the eye with a straight face

1:20:26

and say, these

1:20:28

are the people that are protecting the people's

1:20:30

money, that are protecting and

1:20:32

making sure that playing field

1:20:34

is level and that they're independent.

1:20:38

Especially when you have regulators, and you and I

1:20:40

talked about this, even

1:20:42

though it's making potentially, potentially

1:20:44

Donald Trump billions of dollars

1:20:46

on paper, him

1:20:49

going public and being subject to

1:20:51

the Securities and Exchange Commission, especially

1:20:53

one where he doesn't get to

1:20:55

appoint the head of it because

1:20:57

he gets elected again. Maybe

1:20:59

his worst nightmare and lead to his financial

1:21:02

ruin, because the Securities and Exchange Commission led

1:21:04

by proper people like we have right now

1:21:06

under Gary Gensler and others,

1:21:08

led by Joe Biden,

1:21:12

they don't play. And they

1:21:14

will bring down Donald Trump and this

1:21:16

organization, even though they let them go

1:21:18

public after there was an earlier fraud

1:21:21

scandal and delayed them for a year,

1:21:23

even though, but this is the only way Donald

1:21:26

Trump can get the massive amounts of money that

1:21:28

he wants. Private investment was not going to do

1:21:30

it. He was not going to get professional investors,

1:21:32

even if he went to Dubai or Saudi Arabia,

1:21:34

to give him the billions of

1:21:37

dollars that he can get from

1:21:39

a gullible public that is pumping

1:21:41

up the stock for him, because

1:21:43

they believe in diapers over

1:21:45

Democrats. So he had to

1:21:48

go, but that is a dangerous and

1:21:50

treacherous route for him because of the

1:21:52

Department of Justice, Civil Division and the

1:21:54

Securities and Exchange Commission. And I think

1:21:56

this, thought you like talking about red

1:21:58

flags, I agree. This is maybe the

1:22:00

first shoe to drop is

1:22:02

this fraudulent auditor. The

1:22:05

crosshairs are on there. I'll just speak

1:22:07

to you from one last thing about

1:22:09

my career in representing financial

1:22:11

services companies. When the SEC

1:22:14

or another federal regulator gets it

1:22:16

in their head that a company

1:22:18

that they are regulating or auditing

1:22:21

is a bad company culturally, they

1:22:24

are on them. The crosshairs

1:22:26

almost never come off and

1:22:29

they will bring that company

1:22:31

eventually down. That's what

1:22:33

I believe is I think everyone on

1:22:35

the regulator side believes that all Trump

1:22:37

entities are a bad

1:22:40

company, bad companies and bad culture

1:22:42

and they will not relent. Talk

1:22:44

about it. I don't know. It's

1:22:46

not a witch hunt. It's just

1:22:48

regulatory focus when they think a

1:22:50

company is bad and it's public

1:22:52

facing. Which is one

1:22:54

of the reasons that Trump

1:22:56

and others in MAGA want

1:22:58

to remove all regulatory frameworks

1:23:01

to allow the kind of

1:23:03

deterioration of markets working

1:23:05

efficiently and then they gaslight and

1:23:07

claim it's in the interest of

1:23:09

free markets when actually you have

1:23:11

this manipulation taking place. I think

1:23:13

it's appropriate to kind of conclude

1:23:15

with this. Donald

1:23:17

Trump's judgment or I should

1:23:19

say lack of judgment or

1:23:22

dangerous decision making made him

1:23:24

say, you know who I'm

1:23:26

going to take as this

1:23:28

independent auditor or after

1:23:30

no one else wanted to work with

1:23:32

him because of the conduct he was

1:23:34

engaged in. BF Borgers, an

1:23:36

audit mill. Now the

1:23:39

same person who says I want

1:23:41

BF Borgers was the person who

1:23:44

made life or death

1:23:46

decisions when COVID hit our

1:23:48

shores. I want you to think

1:23:50

about that. This is the person who made life

1:23:52

or death decisions while he was in office and

1:23:54

that is why there were so many issues, so

1:23:56

many systemic problems and when President Trump was in

1:23:58

office, he was in office. President Biden came

1:24:01

into office. He had to deal

1:24:03

with failed trade wars by Donald

1:24:05

Trump. Trump's excessive borrowing,

1:24:08

which is the cause of inflation

1:24:10

when you borrow and print money

1:24:12

as recklessly and carelessly as Donald

1:24:14

Trump did. I know the right

1:24:16

wing wants to talk about debt

1:24:18

and all of these things. Well,

1:24:20

Donald Trump added $8 trillion

1:24:23

of debt. More than

1:24:25

25% of all debt is

1:24:27

by this person. You

1:24:30

just have to take a look at the SPAC.

1:24:34

This is how he's run everything

1:24:36

his entire life. Look, even the

1:24:38

disclosure form that he filed when

1:24:40

the SPAC went public and it

1:24:42

had the reverse merger, the

1:24:45

SEC requires you to disclose your

1:24:47

bankruptcies. This is not a

1:24:49

political thing. This is not, oh, you're

1:24:51

a lefty. You're calling this out. No,

1:24:54

I'm just letting you know this is

1:24:56

Donald Trump's own filing. A

1:24:58

number of companies that were associated with

1:25:00

President Trump, how he refers to himself,

1:25:03

and so you know it's him, have

1:25:05

filed for bankruptcy. There can be no

1:25:07

assurances that Trump media will not also

1:25:09

become bankrupt. Entities associated with Trump have

1:25:11

filed for bankruptcy protection. The Trump Taj

1:25:14

Mahal, which was built and owned by

1:25:16

Trump, filed for Chapter 11 in 1991,

1:25:18

the Trump Plaza,

1:25:20

the Trump Castle, the Plaza Hotel, all

1:25:22

owned by Trump at the time, also

1:25:25

filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 1992.

1:25:28

T-H-C-R, which was founded by Trump

1:25:30

in 1995, filed for

1:25:32

Chapter 11 bankruptcy in 2004. Trump

1:25:35

Entertainment Resorts, the new name given

1:25:37

to Trump hotels and casinos after

1:25:39

its 2004 bankruptcy

1:25:42

declared bankruptcy in 2009. Then

1:25:45

they list others. A number of companies

1:25:47

that had license agreements with Trump failed.

1:25:49

And there can be no assurance that

1:25:52

TMTG will also not fail. Trump Shuttle,

1:25:54

launched by Trump in 89, defaulted on

1:25:56

its loans in 1990 and

1:25:58

ceased to exist by Trump

1:26:01

University, founded in 2005, ceased

1:26:03

operations in 2011 amidst lawsuits and

1:26:06

investigations. Trump Vodka, a brand of

1:26:08

vodka, was introduced in 2005, discontinued

1:26:10

in 2011. Trump

1:26:14

Mortgages, a financial services company founded by Trump

1:26:16

in 2006, ceased in 2007. gotrump.com,

1:26:20

a travel site founded in 2006, out

1:26:22

of business in 2007. Trump

1:26:26

Stakes, founded in 2007, discontinued

1:26:29

sales two months later. That's

1:26:33

Trump's own disclosure right there. And

1:26:35

then you look at how you

1:26:37

got BF Borgers, and as you

1:26:39

mentioned, Popak, Mazers resigned. Markham,

1:26:42

another accounting firm, resigned.

1:26:46

Witham Smith Brown, Witham

1:26:48

Smith Brown, resigned. Resigned, resigned, resigned.

1:26:51

Then you look at Trump in

1:26:53

office, he's not being supported by

1:26:55

his former vice president. He's not

1:26:58

being supported by his former defense

1:27:00

secretary. He's not being supported by

1:27:02

his former national security advisor. Think

1:27:05

about it. These are interrelated

1:27:07

concepts, and one of the points where

1:27:09

we're at the intersection of law and

1:27:11

politics that we always talk about is,

1:27:13

this is not, oh, y'all are coming

1:27:15

from it from the left, or this

1:27:17

is a liberal ... There's nothing left

1:27:20

or liberal about any of this.

1:27:22

These are just the facts, and

1:27:24

we need to live in an

1:27:27

objective reality where we can look

1:27:29

at this conduct and call out

1:27:31

fraud, call out lies, call out

1:27:34

failure. And that's what we need to

1:27:36

do. It is people who

1:27:38

want to politicize objective

1:27:40

reporting, that's the politicization in order

1:27:43

to try to hoist up this

1:27:45

loser, this failure, this fraud that

1:27:47

is Donald Trump, and that's not

1:27:50

hyperbolic. It's just, take a look

1:27:52

at the filings. It's failure, it's

1:27:54

fraud, and it's just continuing to

1:27:57

lose over and over again. Let

1:28:00

me say Michael Popock, thank you for everything

1:28:03

that you do. Your breaking

1:28:06

news updates are incredible, incredible.

1:28:09

Professor Popock on

1:28:11

patreon.com/ legalaf, patreon.com/legalaf.

1:28:14

There is exclusive lectures. If

1:28:16

you really want to geek

1:28:18

out on the law, see

1:28:20

the type of lectures that

1:28:22

I would give to my

1:28:25

law students and undergrad students

1:28:27

that Professor Popock would give

1:28:29

as well. It also helps

1:28:31

build this network. People

1:28:33

are really enjoying it. I think we have almost

1:28:35

3,000 patrons already. Let's

1:28:38

try to get that to 10,000. It's

1:28:40

patreon.com/legalaf. One more

1:28:43

time, patreon.com/legalaf. We'll

1:28:46

keep everybody updated

1:28:50

as we go throughout the week on

1:28:52

everything relating to this Trump criminal trial.

1:28:54

Make sure you subscribe. Let's get to

1:28:56

3 million subscribers together and make sure

1:28:58

you subscribe to Legal

1:29:01

AF on audio podcasts as

1:29:03

well. Thank you all so much.

1:29:05

Popock, always a pleasure. People

1:29:08

go, call him Michael Popock, but

1:29:10

we both call each other by our last

1:29:12

names. Popock's not offended when I call him

1:29:15

by his last name. All

1:29:17

my best friends have always called me Popock. My

1:29:19

wife sometimes calls me Popock and she is a

1:29:21

Popock. You see, that's an

1:29:23

evidentiary admission right there. See you next time

1:29:26

on Legal AF. Have a great one. Shout

1:29:28

out to the Midas place.