0:17

Hey, Kate.

0:18

Hey, Scott.

0:18

I'm so excited.

0:20

I'm so excited. We

0:20

have a really great episode here

0:23

for folks.

0:24

Yeah,

0:25

It is our first

0:25

expert episode, which I'm really

0:28

excited about. It's something that you and I have been wanting to do for a long time.

0:31

Yes. I mean,

0:31

we absolutely are loving the

0:33

conversations with all of our

0:33

entrepreneurs talking about

0:37

their experiences building and

0:37

growing their businesses. But we

0:42

also as business coaches

0:42

ourselves to a lot of

0:44

entrepreneurs, we know that

0:44

there are big questions out

0:47

there that we wanted to be sure

0:47

to get some experts on to answer

0:53

some of those questions around

0:53

all the different things that we

0:56

come in contact with as business

0:56

owners, so... enter Sybil.

1:00

Yes, we're doing

1:00

our first deep dive with an

1:02

expert with Sybil Grieb. She is

1:02

a digital strategist focused on

1:05

influencer marketing. So if

1:05

you've ever wanted to know about

1:08

influencer marketing for your

1:08

business, this is exactly the

1:10

right place where you want to

1:10

be. And she's created 100 Hats,

1:13

her own digital marketing agency

1:13

and is now the SVP of brand

1:17

partnerships and web three

1:17

innovation at the award winning

1:20

creator marketing company Whaler.

1:21

Yes. And so

1:21

Whaler began as an influencer

1:25

marketing agency, and evolved to

1:25

become a full service creator

1:29

commerce company. They've won

1:29

three Cannes Lions for their

1:33

brand work with creators and

1:33

were just awarded Ad Weeks

1:35

Creator Agency of the Year. And

1:35

what I'm so excited about is

1:41

that Sybil can speak to the full

1:41

trajectory, I think, of

1:46

marketing for businesses at all

1:46

stages at all sizes, from the

1:53

first couple of years to well

1:53

into an established brand and

1:57

beyond. So we really get to all

1:57

of that. I'm really glad to have

2:01

her on here today.

2:02

Yeah, me too. I'm

2:02

so excited. I think this is

2:05

going to be a great deep dive

2:05

for everyone. So without further

2:07

ado, here is Sybil Greib.

2:08

Welcome to Less

2:08

than Likely, a podcast featuring

2:16

honest behind the scenes stories

2:16

of real entrepreneurs and thier

2:19

less than likely journeys

2:19

towards creating successful

2:21

businesses. Kate and Scott chat

2:21

with founders from all

2:25

industries and stages in

2:25

business development to bring

2:27

you the real, the brave and the

2:27

messy of building something

2:31

larger than yourself while being

2:31

human.

2:32

How are you

2:32

doin?

2:38

Oh, good.

2:39

Sybil, thank you

2:39

so much for coming on. We're

2:41

really excited to have you as

2:41

our first expert guest. Thanks

2:44

so much for being our guinea pig

2:44

on this. We're really excited to

2:47

have you on.

2:48

I'm honored. I love it.

2:49

But even

2:49

though this is a slightly

2:51

different episode than what our

2:51

typical ones are, we always want

2:56

to start our conversations with

2:56

this question. So Sybil, what is

3:01

it that makes you or your

3:01

business less than likely?

3:04

Oh, so I was a less

3:04

than likely entrepreneur,

3:08

because I swore I would never do

3:08

that. I was 100% like, that's a

3:15

terrible idea. I want a steady

3:15

paycheck. But I was like no

3:20

health care, no safety net, no,

3:20

nothing like that's absolutely

3:23

terrifying. I would never do

3:23

that. And so I had been Head of

3:27

Influencer Marketing at Edelman,

3:27

had left there with another

3:31

offer that kind of gave me the

3:31

courage to jump and wanted to

3:36

take time off in between,

3:36

though. And so I kind of put

3:38

them on hold. And somebody

3:38

reached out to me and said, Hey,

3:42

I have this client, you should

3:42

take them on. And I was like,

3:45

oh, no, no, that's not, I'm not

3:45

a consultant. That's not

3:48

something I do. And they were

3:48

like, no, no, you'd be perfect

3:50

for them. And it was like, well,

3:50

I'll have a conversation with

3:53

them. And I will figure out who

3:53

the right person is. And then

3:56

I'll introduce them to that

3:56

person. And then, of course, I

3:59

have a conversation with them. I

3:59

get so excited about what

4:02

they're building and what

4:02

they're doing. And I'm like, Oh,

4:04

you need to meet this person.

4:04

And this person, we should do

4:06

this, and this and this. And so

4:06

then I like accidentally had a

4:11

client, but it was like, I'm

4:11

just gonna do this one thing

4:13

like it just this one little

4:13

thing. And then I was speaking

4:17

somewhere about influencer

4:17

marketing, and somebody else

4:20

came on board. And they were

4:20

like, I would really love to

4:23

work with you. And again, I was

4:23

kind of like, oh, but this isn't

4:27

what I actually do. But I'll do

4:27

this one other thing view on

4:31

keeping the other company on

4:31

hold. And I ended up paying my

4:36

rent the first month. And I was

4:36

like, well, that that was weird.

4:39

I mean, also, it just shows that

4:39

like, I don't know how to take a

4:41

vacation. (all laugh) I was

4:41

like. I'll take three months

4:46

off, I went to Mexico for like

4:46

three days, came back and like

4:49

accidentally started a company.

4:49

And so yes, it just kind of kept

4:54

going like that. I think I got

4:54

really lucky and 100% was word

4:59

of mouth or a speaking

4:59

engagement or something like

5:02

that.

5:02

Yeah. And I'm

5:02

wondering and curious, how did

5:05

the name 100 Hats end up coming

5:05

into being because when I think

5:10

of that, I think of all of the

5:10

hats that entrepreneurs have to

5:12

wear at the same time. But

5:12

knowing a little bit about your

5:15

history, I know there's there's

5:15

more to it than that for you.

5:18

Yeah, when I was

5:18

leaving Edelman, I decided I was

5:21

like, I'm going to do all the

5:21

things that I said I was going

5:24

to do and have never gotten

5:24

around to because I'm working

5:27

crazy hours. One of those things

5:27

was my best friend had her baby

5:31

at 25 weeks instead of 40. And

5:31

so he was in the NICU at

5:35

Stanford. And he was in an

5:35

incubator for about nine months.

5:40

And they had to also wear these

5:40

like little hats to keep them

5:43

warm. And the hats have to be

5:43

like handmade and they had to be

5:48

special material and special

5:48

washing and all these sort of

5:51

things. And so when I first

5:51

resigned, I was like, because I

5:55

cannot do anything in a small

5:55

way I started 100 Hats project,

6:00

and it was I was gonna make 100.

6:00

Like, just make five, like make

6:04

five. No, I'm gonna make 100 of

6:04

these teeny little preemie baby

6:11

hats. So I started the 100 Hats

6:11

project, I'm enlisting like my

6:15

mom, and like all the ladies

6:15

from the church, and I'm like,

6:18

Alright, we're gonna do this.

6:18

And then COVID hit. And

6:22

simultaneously, I was

6:22

accidentally consulting, and I

6:26

needed the business name. And I

6:26

was originally going to call it

6:30

the accidental consultant,

6:30

because that's just funny to me.

6:33

But

6:34

That's the name of your memoir, by the way, that's not the name of your business.

6:38

Yeah, really it's

6:38

an accident. But then I thought

6:42

it was like, I want something

6:42

more broad. I was like, Oh, 100

6:45

hats. My favorite clients are

6:45

the ones that like were building

6:50

something new, or they're just

6:50

launching a brand. For whatever

6:53

reason, I'm drawn to that, like

6:53

chaos days, where you have to

6:56

wear 100 different hats. And

6:56

you've got to be like building

6:59

the plane as you're flying it.

6:59

So for me, that was so exciting.

7:03

And the name just ended up

7:03

fitting. And in retrospect, it

7:07

looks like Oh, I'm so smart. No,

7:07

like, I just everybody's like,

7:11

You're so brave for starting

7:11

your own company. And I'm like,

7:14

you know, it's the whole idea of

7:14

like jumping off the cliff and

7:17

taking this huge leap of faith.

7:17

And I was like, I was like, I

7:20

had my back to the cliff. And I

7:20

was like, gesturing wildly, and

7:23

I fell off and I grew wings,

7:23

like it just was super

7:27

accidental there.

7:29

I love that

7:29

story. I feel like it's so

7:32

relatable, because a lot of the

7:32

people that I work with also

7:35

aren't like, oh, I went in

7:35

knowing exactly what was going

7:38

to happen. Like, sometimes it's

7:38

accidental. Sometimes you have a

7:41

general idea. I love the

7:41

connection also to the project,

7:45

which is so close to your heart,

7:45

and so clearly speaks to who you

7:48

are as well, right? That you

7:48

can't do anything without going

7:51

big. And it's, it's just really

7:51

a beautiful story. I'm so glad

7:55

you shared it.

7:56

Yeah, it really

7:56

is. And when it comes to 100

7:58

Hats, how long overall was it

7:58

running for? And now that you

8:02

have the benefit of hindsight,

8:02

how do you feel like that

8:04

overall experience was for you?

8:05

So two and a half

8:05

years, and I feel like I was

8:08

super lucky that year one, I did

8:08

six figures, year two, I doubled

8:12

it. And I mean, like low six

8:12

figures and nothing to, you

8:16

know, really write home. But it

8:16

was just this thing of like this

8:20

is actually really working and

8:20

bringing in really interesting

8:24

clients. And yet I feel like

8:24

about two years in there started

8:28

to be this pivotal moment where

8:28

I realized that what I loved

8:31

doing most was the strategy

8:31

phase. What I love doing the

8:35

most was working with these

8:35

brand new companies. Guess who

8:39

has very little money, brand new

8:39

companies. But then also part of

8:43

my goal, too, is like, I don't

8:43

want my clients to be dependent

8:47

on me. I wanted to help them get

8:47

off the ground, I was happy to

8:51

train their internal team, I was

8:51

happy to pass them off to

8:54

another agency or whatever. But

8:54

I loved being that strategist in

8:58

the early days. What that means,

8:58

though, is that you are always

9:02

having to bring in new clients.

9:02

I just got really lucky that I

9:06

did two speaking engagements

9:06

right before COVID. And that's

9:10

where I basically got almost all

9:10

of my clients from that. And

9:14

then just from word of mouth,

9:14

everybody I've worked with in

9:17

the industry before was like oh,

9:17

you need influencer marketing.

9:21

Go talk to Sybil. And at the two

9:21

year mark, almost to the day, it

9:26

was interesting. I had a

9:26

retainer client that paid all of

9:29

my bills and what they needed me

9:29

for in the beginning, I'd

9:33

completed and they no longer

9:33

needed that piece. And they

9:36

wanted to keep me on because

9:36

they felt like oh, there's all

9:40

these other things you can do.

9:40

And I got to the point I was

9:44

like, Okay, you actually need a

9:44

salesperson to be selling on

9:48

behalf of your business, not a

9:48

strategist who's building you

9:51

know, the behind the scenes

9:51

pieces. So we parted very

9:55

amicably. I was like you cannot,

9:55

I'm not allowing you to pay me

9:59

anymore. I love you. But it was

9:59

kind of this pivotal moment

10:02

where I was like, Huh, that's so

10:02

funny. Like, I'm walking away

10:06

from the retainer type of

10:06

clients in a lot of these cases

10:10

and is this what I really want

10:10

to do like, and is this

10:13

scalable? So I've hired a full

10:13

time person. I had a bunch of

10:17

different people that I was

10:17

tapping part time. And after two

10:21

years of just growth, growth,

10:21

pretty steady, not 100% steady,

10:25

but really fairly even. There

10:25

was a moment where there was

10:28

like this little moment of quiet

10:28

and my employee was busy, but I

10:32

could actually get free for a

10:32

minute. And I was like, I could

10:36

worry about this, I could lean

10:36

into marketing. Or I could go to

10:40

Costa Rica. And I chose Costa

10:40

Rica. And I had this like,

10:44

amazing epiphany that I didn't

10:44

act on exactly. Like maybe it's

10:48

the beginning of an epiphany of,

10:48

I can't scale the piece that I

10:52

love the most by myself. But

10:52

what I needed at that point was

10:55

a partner. I like these pieces

10:55

but if we're going to have

10:59

retainer clients, we need

10:59

another piece of that business.

11:03

And what does that look like? I

11:03

was trying to kind of do all the

11:07

things and wear 100 hats. And I

11:07

think my heart just wasn't in it

11:11

as much. And I kept thinking

11:11

like, oh, but it should be

11:14

because it's my business. And at

11:14

the same time, we got an RFP

11:18

that was just too big. So

11:18

request for proposal that like I

11:22

would have had to hire up to

11:22

complete this. And I was like,

11:25

it's going to be so expensive to

11:25

hire. And I just don't have the

11:29

infrastructure. And at the same

11:29

time, for over a year, I've been

11:33

talking to a company Whaler that

11:33

is award winning influencer

11:37

marketing agency. And I met Neil

11:37

Whalar, who's one of the co

11:41

founders. And I really had liked

11:41

him. And I was like, at some

11:45

point, I knew I want to work for

11:45

this person. But the timing

11:49

hadn't been quite right. And as

11:49

soon as that RFP came in, I

11:52

really looked at what Whaler had

11:52

to offer. And the fact that I

11:56

could probably bring this client

11:56

over to Whaler, have that full

12:00

infrastructure. And the thing

12:00

that really sold me was the

12:04

other co founder, James Street

12:04

is running an innovation hub

12:08

there. And so it's Web3. And

12:08

it's all of these different

12:11

things having to do with the

12:11

metaverse and NFT's and crypto.

12:15

And as scary as I think some of

12:15

these things are, I'm also very

12:19

intrigued. And so for me, that

12:19

was the moment there wasn't even

12:23

a second thought. It was like

12:23

the second they said Innovation

12:27

Hub. I was like that's it I'm

12:27

in. And it was really because I

12:30

realized I needed to run my own

12:30

business because I needed to

12:34

lean really into the strategy

12:34

piece of everything. But now I

12:38

really wanted to get back to

12:38

like, what is that forefront of

12:42

everything that's about to

12:42

happen. So that opportunity for

12:45

me was going to Whaler and it's

12:45

interesting because...bless the

12:49

company that had made me the

12:49

offer when I was still at

12:53

Edelman because they had come

12:53

back a second time and had made

12:57

me another offer and their offer

12:57

was work for us part time 50%

13:01

for us, run your company 50% but

13:01

build up our influencer team.

13:05

And so I had this really

13:05

interesting choice of keep your

13:08

company ...and there's some

13:08

pride to that too. You know, you

13:12

don't want to close down your

13:12

own company like that just feels

13:16

like ugh. And I just I didn't

13:16

choose it because I thought I'm

13:20

taking the scarier choice by

13:20

far. But I'm taking the one

13:23

where my god like how much will

13:23

I have learned in a year because

13:27

I'm having to live in what's

13:27

going on with NFT's, with the

13:31

metaverse, crypto... build

13:31

strategy around that. That's so

13:34

exciting. And it wasn't even a question.

13:37

I was just

13:37

wanted to comment on your

13:40

presence of mind and

13:40

thoughtfulness. Right, there's

13:42

so many moments when you could

13:42

have been kind of I use the word

13:46

like bewitched by the next

13:46

thing, right. So that moment of

13:50

the retainer client coming in

13:50

and giving you the next phase

13:53

and you saying well, I could do

13:53

this. And then the different

13:57

offers that you have going on

13:57

you were just really able to

14:01

stay with what I want to do,

14:01

what am I great at? And what am

14:06

I interested in? I think that's

14:06

so easy to get lost in what does

14:10

growth look like, especially as

14:10

a business owner. And you

14:15

challenged that very proactively

14:15

to say what is growth for me,

14:20

not necessarily growth for my

14:20

business. And I just love that

14:24

you had that presence of mind to

14:24

really stay with what you

14:26

needed.

14:27

Absolutely. I

14:27

mean, talk about having the big

14:30

picture in mind, which I think

14:30

is amazing. And I think it's

14:32

really hard to do. You know,

14:32

it's like any relationship that

14:34

you have. You've put in so much

14:34

time into it. It's it's that

14:38

point of what is best for me

14:38

right now. And I think that is

14:41

particularly hard for business

14:41

owners. And I just think that

14:46

you put it in such perspective.

14:46

What I'm curious about for you,

14:49

though, is what lessons did you

14:49

bring with you from 100 hat and

14:53

that you see yourself applying

14:53

at Whaler and also if you could

14:55

give us a little bit of background about actually what you're doing there at Whaler.

14:59

Yeah, yeah,

14:59

absolutely. One of the things

15:01

that I definitely feel like I

15:01

learned running my own company

15:05

was I've usually run teams at

15:05

different companies and so every

15:09

time you want to hire somebody,

15:09

it's always like well put

15:12

together a business case and

15:12

you're like... business case?

15:14

I'm gonna lose my mind if I

15:14

don't get another person. And so

15:17

right In your own company,

15:17

you're like, oh, yeah, what is

15:19

the business case, like, because

15:19

it's like my rent is on the

15:23

line. And like the cats are not

15:23

bringing in the pet rent. So

15:26

like, we got to figure that out.

15:26

So I think just like really

15:32

getting closer to truly running

15:32

a P&L, and also really, really

15:38

looking at when to hire, what

15:38

level because that is the most

15:45

important piece. And so that was

15:45

also something where I realized

15:48

with my business, it was great

15:48

that second year, just having me

15:52

and a junior person. But the

15:52

next phase, I needed somebody

15:56

more senior, that's a huge

15:56

investment. So I think looking

16:00

at building a team, even within

16:00

another company, I think I look

16:04

at very differently. Now. The

16:04

other thing is just how do we

16:08

build this to sustain not

16:08

knowing exactly what's coming

16:11

down the pipe? How do we build

16:11

something that's strong

16:15

foundation, no matter what

16:15

direction we decide to slightly

16:18

pivot on?

16:20

That's an

16:20

incredible insight for you to

16:22

bring to where you're going,

16:22

right? Like I've been in a staff

16:25

position and gone, I want to

16:25

hire somebody, please, can we do

16:29

it? It's just amazing to have

16:29

the business acumen right now,

16:34

in that place. Now that you also

16:34

have run your own company, I'm

16:38

hoping that you can help us

16:38

understand some of the our

16:41

listeners are probably in their

16:41

first couple of years or even in

16:45

their first year. What do the

16:45

earliest stages of marketing

16:50

look like for businesses in

16:50

their first year? And speaking

16:54

to that idea of building a

16:54

foundation, when you don't know

16:57

necessarily where you're going

16:57

to go, what you were just

17:00

talking about?

17:01

Yeah, well, and it

17:01

definitely varies by company and

17:03

by vertical. Like, obviously, if

17:03

you have a product, it's a lot

17:06

easier to, you know, we have a

17:06

widget, this is our widget, this

17:10

is what our widget does. I think

17:10

in the services business, it's a

17:13

little bit more complicated,

17:13

especially if you come by it

17:17

accidentally and are like I do

17:17

all the things. Let's see what

17:19

things you need.

17:20

Which is most

17:20

people who own a services based

17:23

business in their first year, by the way, right?

17:25

Exactly. So I mean,

17:25

I think so on the services side,

17:28

I would say well, on every side,

17:28

honestly, like year one for me,

17:32

it was finding my team, it was

17:32

figuring out like, Yeah, I'm a

17:35

solopreneur. But like, wink,

17:35

wink, nudge nudge, like, Scott

17:39

was my work coach, like, I could

17:39

not have done it without, you

17:43

know, I joke that I would show

17:43

up to meetings with Scott and be

17:47

like, Okay, here's the thing.

17:47

There's all these carts, and

17:50

there's all these horses, and I

17:50

don't know what goes where and

17:54

literally, like, line them up

17:54

for me. And then I would leave

17:57

being like, oh, okay, great, got

17:57

the things, because you need

18:01

that person that's gonna pull

18:01

you back and up out of it so

18:05

that you can see the forest for

18:05

the trees. So that's one thing

18:08

like the the coaching aspect,

18:08

you can talk to all your

18:12

friends. And that's great. And

18:12

they're always going to be

18:15

supportive, which is wonderful.

18:15

But you need that person that's

18:19

going to push you ask you

18:19

questions, question your

18:22

answers, you know, these kinds

18:22

of things. In a very strategic

18:26

way. I needed an attorney, I

18:26

needed back office support and

18:29

sending out invoices and an

18:29

accountant and a CPA and, you

18:33

know, payroll, and all of these

18:33

things. Like I needed a website

18:36

designer, all those pieces that

18:36

you don't see necessarily. And

18:40

it looks like just me in the

18:40

front running the show, there's

18:44

five people back there that I

18:44

don't need to tap them always.

18:47

But it took me a year to figure

18:47

out who they were. So I think

18:51

that's one side of it.

18:51

Particularly on the marketing

18:54

side, the thing I always start

18:54

with is look at who are your top

18:58

five competitors that are very

18:58

similar to what you're doing,

19:02

who are maybe three to five

19:02

other brands that you love. They

19:05

may not be in the same vertical,

19:05

but they're talking to the same

19:09

demographic or some of your

19:09

target audiences or something

19:13

like that. What is it that you

19:13

love about them? Really do a

19:16

deep dive, like before you do

19:16

anything else, look at their

19:20

social media channels, look at

19:20

their website, what are they

19:23

saying? What are their key

19:23

messages, what seems to be

19:26

working for them? What doesn't

19:26

seem to be resonating as well

19:30

for them? Really try to learn

19:30

from other people's work and

19:34

other people's mistakes. And

19:34

like, for example, I had an auto

19:37

client and I was doing kind of a

19:37

deep dive on their competitors.

19:41

And you know, BMW. I've driven

19:41

many BMW, I feel like I know the

19:45

brand pretty well. But when I

19:45

started doing more of a deep

19:48

dive on their social media, I

19:48

realize it's so interesting,

19:52

they position their car as if

19:52

it's a celebrity, as if it's a

19:56

person. It is one brand that

19:56

really stuck out that way where

19:59

it's literally it'll be a BMW on

19:59

a red carpet, as if it's like a

20:03

model at an event and it's just

20:03

a car you know. And I was like,

20:07

That is fascinating that I

20:07

hadn't noticed that before. It

20:10

just there's just things like

20:10

that. We are kind of like Oh,

20:14

well that's a really interesting

20:14

take like how do we want to

20:18

position this brand? As we start

20:18

looking at what our competitors

20:21

are doing, it just really gets

20:21

you thinking. It also helps you

20:25

figure out what what are their

20:25

taglines, that's very easy to

20:29

see. But what are their key

20:29

messages behind those taglines?

20:32

And how are you different? How

20:32

can you really communicate your

20:36

offering in a way that speaks to

20:36

your audience, or most likely

20:40

audiences? And this is another

20:40

mistake that I think brands

20:43

often make, brands of all sizes

20:43

will make the mistake of like,

20:47

Oh, we're targeting the male 18

20:47

to 34. And you're like, great,

20:51

that's awesome. Because it's

20:51

just one type of person, right?

20:54

And so really diving down on

20:54

those target audiences? Who are

20:58

they? really diving down on your

20:58

competitors. What are they doing

21:02

what seems to be working? You

21:02

know, what are the most liked

21:06

posts? Do they do more video? Do

21:06

they do more you know, static

21:09

images? What's working for them?

21:09

Do they have a tick tock? Do

21:13

they not? Are they working with

21:13

influencers? Which influencers?

21:17

How is that seeming to land with

21:17

audiences? I always say it's

21:20

like the first three things are

21:20

strategy, strategy, strategy,

21:24

and just the research piece of it.

21:25

I think, you know, the research side of it, you're asking, you know, I love

21:26

these great questions that

21:31

you've offered, right? How are

21:31

they positioning themselves?

21:34

What are their key messages?

21:34

What are their taglines? How are

21:36

you different? How are they

21:36

doing in each moment, right with

21:41

each piece of marketing that

21:41

they do. And I think that that's

21:44

honestly, where a lot of people

21:44

don't dive in. They just look at

21:49

all of the message or they look

21:49

at it and they make assumptions

21:53

about this is so great. Oh, wow,

21:53

that's so flashy. But is it

21:57

landing? Is it hitting? Are they

21:57

getting the kind of engagement

22:01

or what other what ever other

22:01

metrics you might be looking

22:05

for? Which I am curious about?

22:05

Like, maybe we get into that?

22:08

What are the metrics we need to

22:08

be looking at when we are, you

22:11

know, assessing other people's

22:11

marketing and our own? But

22:15

that's a key question. How are

22:15

they actually doing with these

22:19

components? So thank you for

22:19

drawing that forward.

22:21

Yeah, absolutely.

22:21

And the thing that's coming up

22:24

for me, as I was just thinking

22:24

about this, too, was, I feel

22:28

like there's two components to

22:28

this, right. There's the aspect

22:31

of doing the research,

22:31

understanding your market and

22:34

the competitors that you're

22:34

working with and their

22:36

messaging, but then at some

22:36

point, you've got to be able to

22:40

move forward. And one of the

22:40

things that I feel like holds

22:43

back a lot of people is that

22:43

they feel like they never have

22:46

enough information. So they're

22:46

always waiting for more info,

22:49

they're always waiting to do

22:49

more research. And they're

22:52

almost unwilling to claim their

22:52

own authority of their own

22:56

opinion. And I always push

22:56

people, I'm always like, hey,

22:58

well, get on your soapbox here.

22:58

What do you really think about

23:01

what's wrong in the marketplace

23:01

right now, what's missing? What

23:05

your customers need? And almost

23:05

100% of the time, they're pretty

23:10

right on, you know, they've done

23:10

the research at that point. So

23:13

they know and they've distilled

23:13

that down. But I think it's

23:15

really instilling in people that

23:15

sense of their own opinion, and

23:19

their own authority is really

23:19

critically important to this.

23:22

To that point, so

23:22

often, people are like, Ah, I

23:26

don't know, I don't know, there's all these things. There's all these channels, I

23:27

don't know what's working. Arm

23:30

yourself with fact, literally

23:30

make yourself sit down and go

23:34

through that competitor's

23:34

Instagram, and write down some

23:37

of those key messages that

23:37

you're seeing or those

23:39

catchphrases or taglines.

23:39

Screengrab which post is seeing

23:44

the most likes or the most

23:44

engagement. Scroll through and

23:48

see how are people engaging?

23:48

Like, are they engaging on the

23:50

topic? Or are they like, nice

23:50

shorts, you know, and it has

23:54

like nothing to do with the

23:54

actual product. You can really

23:57

go through and do that for even

23:57

three of your competitors. And

24:01

you have a much better idea of,

24:01

okay, I'm armed with this works

24:06

for them, that works for the

24:06

other guys. I mean, the one

24:09

caveat I will give is that a lot

24:09

of times brands will put paid

24:13

media to boost certain posts.

24:13

And so sometimes you'll see

24:17

like, Oh, this one has a ton of

24:17

likes. And it may also be that

24:20

it also had a ton more views.

24:23

I have kind

24:23

of what feels like kind of a

24:25

stupid question, which is how do

24:25

you determine who your

24:28

competitors are? Because, you

24:28

know, I'm in my first year of

24:32

business, say, and I want to be

24:32

in this place in five years, but

24:37

I'm not there yet. So is it

24:37

worth it for me to look at this

24:41

competitor who's like way ahead

24:41

of the game and maybe in eight

24:44

years? Or do I start with

24:44

somebody who's like maybe two or

24:47

three years ahead of me? How do

24:47

you determine who your

24:49

competitors are?

24:50

Yeah, I mean, I say

24:50

go aspirational for sure.

24:53

Because that's where you want to

24:53

get to. They already stumbled

24:57

and learned in those first

24:57

years, and they've built

25:00

something. And now they're kind

25:00

of like, okay, we've got the

25:03

wheels turning and we're heading

25:03

in the direction we want to go.

25:07

So is I think it's always really

25:07

beneficial to look at people who

25:11

are further down the line than

25:11

where you are. I think you can

25:14

learn a ton from that. Learn as

25:14

much as you can. But also don't

25:18

overwhelm yourself with the

25:18

feeling that you need to compete

25:21

at that level. Like, they

25:21

probably have a marketing person

25:25

or a marketing team or, you

25:25

know, they've got influencer

25:28

marketing on this side, paid

25:28

media over there, and social

25:31

media here and they've got, you

25:31

know, various people running all

25:35

these pieces. You don't have to

25:35

boil the ocean, but see, of the

25:39

pieces that they're doing, what

25:39

seems to be working. You can

25:42

just learn so much from that.

25:42

And I think it is good to look

25:46

at brands that are similar in

25:46

scale and size to yours, but I

25:49

actually would lean more into

25:49

the aspirational.

25:51

Okay, so

25:51

I've done a bunch of research,

25:55

right? I've looked at the key

25:55

messages I've understood. Now I

25:58

am paying for my, you know,

25:58

bookkeeping, and my lawyer and

26:03

all of these different people,

26:03

and I really don't have a

26:06

marketing budget. So I need to

26:06

be doing it on my own at this

26:09

stage, right? So I'm ready to

26:09

start putting material out

26:14

there. Where do you think that

26:14

it's best to be focusing

26:18

ourselves and our energies in

26:18

order to market effectively with

26:23

that tight marketing budget?

26:26

Yeah. So it's going

26:26

to vary, but I can give you some

26:29

buckets that is helpful. So

26:29

first of all, knowing your

26:32

audience and knowing, let's say,

26:32

you know, if it's like 40 and

26:36

above, guess what, you're

26:36

probably gonna want to be on

26:39

Facebook, because that's where

26:39

they're gonna be. If you know

26:42

you're looking at like 20 year

26:42

olds, you're gonna want to be on

26:46

Tik Tok if you can. Obviously

26:46

video a lot harder to do, more

26:50

time consuming, but at least

26:50

Instagram. So the platform is

26:54

going to be dictated by the

26:54

audience that you're trying to

26:56

reach. If you're looking for a

26:56

really young audience, like,

26:59

don't worry, you don't need to

26:59

be on Facebook. They're like,

27:04

what's a Facebook. So Google

27:04

AdWords is also a great place,

27:11

it's so easy to just test

27:11

different key messages. Put,

27:15

like tiny amounts of spend

27:15

behind things. You know, one of

27:19

the things you want to do is A/B

27:19

message testing.

27:24

Okay, let's say you have three

27:24

different key messages. And you

27:28

want to see which ones are

27:28

resonating most. Be able to test

27:32

it as much as you can in small

27:32

environments and see like, what

27:35

our audience is gravitating

27:35

towards, like what makes people

27:38

click through more, and just

27:38

being able to test that a little

27:42

bit. And then you can play with

27:42

putting a little bit of paid

27:44

media to boost the ones that you

27:44

think are performing best.

27:48

I want to be

27:48

clear, though, that what you're

27:50

talking about here is really

27:50

testing using small amounts of

27:54

dollars, right to test versus to

27:54

market. Obviously, it's all

27:59

under the same bucket. But

27:59

that's not the moment when I'm

28:03

like putting lots of money into

28:03

paid marketing at this stage,

28:06

you're really trying to get

28:06

answers to questions, what are

28:09

people going to be responding

28:09

to? Is that right? And where

28:11

does my market live and hang

28:11

out?

28:14

to your point, it's

28:14

all under the marketing budget.

28:17

But it's let's learn before we

28:17

go spend the full amount of our

28:22

marketing budget, because we

28:22

have three different messages.

28:26

We don't want to just put them

28:26

evenly out there. But if you do

28:29

those initial tests, and you

28:29

start to get a feeling of like,

28:33

okay, wait, this one is really

28:33

pulling ahead. So let's come up

28:38

with a couple different versions

28:38

of this one, or let's tweak

28:40

these other two and see how they

28:40

might perform better. And also

28:44

what's performing better on

28:44

maybe it's Google AdWords,

28:47

people are typing in like, what

28:47

are those key words that are

28:50

working for you? versus, you

28:50

know, something else might be

28:53

working on Instagram, figuring

28:53

out where is the customer at

28:58

when they find you?

28:59

Yeah, that makes

28:59

so much sense. And I know that

29:02

for a lot of people getting into

29:02

paid marketing is a big step,

29:06

right? That's going to feel

29:06

maybe a little intimidating and

29:09

a little complicated. So when do

29:09

you think someone should start

29:13

looking into paid marketing as

29:13

opposed to just doing it on

29:16

their own and organically

29:16

growing their followers.

29:19

I mean, I think if you

29:19

have the budget, and you have

29:23

the bandwidth, and you know the

29:23

audience you're going after, and

29:26

you can put certain goals around

29:26

it, then start leaning in, like

29:31

start playing around, start

29:31

adding more, here and there

29:36

where you can, where you have

29:36

the bandwidth. It's not very

29:39

hard. And also like you can mess

29:39

it up sort of slightly, and

29:43

nobody knows, you know, you

29:43

know, just like put $5 here and

29:47

like, Oh, that ran for three

29:47

days instead of one or whatever,

29:50

it's is fine. Play around with

29:50

it. You don't have to be an

29:53

expert in all these things. It's

29:53

great if you can bring somebody

29:57

in who knows how to, like really

29:57

target your paid media.

30:02

Yeah, you don't have to do this on your own if it feels like too much, either.

30:05

Yeah, you know, you

30:05

don't have to be a social media

30:08

expert. You just need to play

30:08

around, start getting

30:13

comfortable with it. And then

30:13

little by little it does start

30:16

to feel much more comfortable.

30:16

And, you know, Google AdWords,

30:19

you know, is pretty, pretty

30:19

easy. You can learn it in a

30:22

very, very short amount of time,

30:22

in you know, an hour, and then

30:26

play around with it till it feels more comfortable.

30:28

Yeah, cuz like Google and Facebook and all them, they all have like free

30:30

courses that you can take

30:32

explaining all of it.

30:33

Absolutely, like,

30:33

I'm a nerd. So I took even

30:36

though like Facebook has their

30:36

social media manager

30:39

certifications and things that

30:39

you can get. But I also think,

30:43

and this is the biggest thing

30:43

for entrepreneurs, because I

30:46

think a lot of us are used to

30:46

wearing all the hats and

30:50

actually are pretty good at a

30:50

lot of different things. And

30:55

sometimes, you don't have to .Go

30:55

find a Gen Zer, who like lives

31:01

and breathes in the social media

31:01

space. They don't have to be a

31:04

full time employee, they can

31:04

create a bunch of content for

31:08

you. And the other thing I would

31:08

say with anything social media,

31:12

biggest advice, batch your work,

31:12

don't be creating every single

31:17

day to be posting every single

31:17

day. Absolutely not. Put a

31:22

calendar together for the year,

31:22

figure out like what are the key

31:25

dates that I want to lean into?

31:25

Is it my product ties in on like

31:30

Earth Day is something I want to

31:30

really do or, you know, it's

31:32

women's empowerment. And so I

31:32

want to lean in on this day or

31:35

that day. And really, you can

31:35

put together a huge amount of

31:38

content, if you've planned it in

31:38

advance, you do it all at once.

31:43

It doesn't have to be a full

31:43

time job, it can be Hey, we want

31:45

you to come in for eight hours

31:45

once a week and create like a

31:49

bunch of content or, you know,

31:49

even once a month and create a

31:54

certain amount of content. And

31:54

it's just extremely helpful. And

31:57

then for the business owner,

31:57

they can then sit down with that

32:00

person, look at a bunch of

32:00

content at once. And the one

32:04

thing I will say is having a

32:04

style guide is really helpful.

32:07

You know, knowing what are your

32:07

fonts, what are your colors, the

32:10

more you can arm somebody with

32:10

that, it makes it a lot easier.

32:13

Have them put together some

32:13

templates. Canva is an excellent

32:17

program for all of this. And it

32:17

just makes it so easy. You

32:21

create these templates and then

32:21

boom, you can just plug things

32:24

in, and it's much more time

32:24

effective.

32:26

I love that you break it all down. Because I have people who are like, I

32:27

don't understand why I struggle

32:30

so hard to post, like it's you

32:30

know, it's really easy. It's

32:36

just so fast. Like it just takes

32:36

a few seconds a day. And I'm

32:39

like it does not take a few

32:39

seconds a day. (laugh) And so to

32:47

hear you talk about all these

32:47

different components, there's so

32:50

much associated with it. But it

32:50

really is easy to kind of like

32:54

be caught in that lie of Oh, you

32:54

just throw it up there and off

32:57

it goes.

32:58

I wish. The other

32:58

thing is I would say use a

33:01

program like Later or one of

33:01

these programs where you can

33:04

schedule your content in

33:04

advance. That said, schedule in

33:09

advance by all means, but check

33:09

it every day before. This is a

33:14

big thing... know what's going

33:14

on in the news, know what's

33:16

going on, you know, at least

33:16

like that top tier of pop

33:19

culture. Because you don't want

33:19

to be like yay, I can breathe

33:23

clearly now and then I can't

33:23

breathe is trending. You always

33:27

do have to check in. And then

33:27

just be really cognizant of

33:31

what's going on socially. So

33:31

that something that was

33:34

completely benign yesterday

33:34

doesn't accidentally trigger the

33:38

day that it posts. Because we've

33:38

definitely seen influencers

33:41

who've done that, and then had

33:41

to like walk it back. And it's

33:44

like Sorry, I scheduled it in

33:44

advance. I wasn't actually there

33:47

or doing this thing. And it's

33:47

just a little difficult.

33:51

Yeah, that's such

33:51

a good point. And you know, one

33:53

of the other things too, that I

33:53

found with people running their

33:56

own businesses, and they're the

33:56

faces of them, that you can feel

34:00

a real pressure to be creating

34:00

content for your social media

34:03

that, you know, creates a

34:03

connection with your audience,

34:05

right? That's so important. So

34:05

there's oftentimes this tension

34:09

that I found between how much do

34:09

you give away of your personal

34:11

life? Right? How much is too

34:11

much? I think it'd be really

34:14

uncomfortable when you don't

34:14

necessarily want to be talking

34:17

about your kids or your spouse.

34:17

And yet you do want to be

34:20

showing who you are and, and

34:20

connecting with your potential

34:23

clients. So you can create

34:23

trust, right, and you're warming

34:25

up that audience. So I'm just

34:25

curious, how do you navigate

34:29

that? What would what would you recommend?

34:29

Well, and

34:29

can I also add to it, I mean,

34:33

I've got two young kids who are

34:33

9 and 12. And I hate to say it

34:38

this way, but I know that when I

34:38

put my kids out, that's when

34:42

engagement comes in, right? Like

34:42

I have a picture of my kids and

34:46

like people really respond to

34:46

that. And so I have to ask,

34:50

like, Is this okay? Is this

34:50

okay? And obviously, I mean,

34:55

it's a personal question for

34:55

everyone as far as that's

34:57

concerned in your family

34:57

dynamics, but from a marketing

35:00

perspective, I have asked that

35:00

question.

35:02

It is a very personal

35:02

choice for me. I am super jazz

35:09

handsy but I'm actually very

35:09

private. So all of my accounts

35:14

are private. I don't have a

35:14

public Instagram. I don't have a

35:17

public Facebook. And that's just

35:17

the decision that I made. Now

35:20

that said, when I was running

35:20

100 hats we did have social

35:24

media accounts. And it's funny

35:24

because there's one or two times

35:29

that we actually put my face on

35:29

something was like, I was

35:32

speaking somewhere, I think ces

35:32

or something. And then we did

35:36

the behind the scenes of who I

35:36

am. And those ones, absolutely,

35:40

they got the most views, the

35:40

most likes, the most engagement

35:43

by far. But I was like, I've

35:43

just no need to put my face like

35:48

everywhere, like I just, it's

35:48

not me. But I think it can work

35:53

really well, for entrepreneurs,

35:53

I think there's definitely

35:57

people who bring in their whole

35:57

family dynamic. And sometimes

36:00

it's the brand evolved because

36:00

of their family, you know, or

36:05

these different things like

36:05

they, they found a need within

36:08

their own family unit, and then

36:08

they created this product. I

36:11

think when it's that that feels

36:11

more organic to me, then, you

36:16

know...I mean, like, I'll put my

36:16

cats on posts all day long.

36:23

Absolutely, people are gonna

36:23

engage, you're like, this is my

36:25

lovely couch, versus this my

36:25

lovely couch with a pet on it.

36:33

People do want something that

36:33

has personality to it. And I

36:37

think that you can find

36:37

personality and show

36:40

personality, without it truly

36:40

being your face, or your kids or

36:47

your true life. Like for me, I'm

36:47

pretty sarcastic. And so, you

36:52

know, finding that balance of

36:52

like, how, how sarcastic do I

36:55

want to be? And how much fun can

36:55

I have with this and also be

36:59

buttoned up and professional, it

36:59

was always a hard balance. I

37:02

mean, I think you really have to

37:02

play with that to like, see what

37:05

you're comfortable with. And

37:05

then also know that like, you

37:07

know, what, if I put my family

37:07

in this post, and I get a bunch

37:11

more likes, like, it's not worth

37:11

it to me, like I want to hold

37:15

back or this is totally aligned

37:15

with our values. And we want to

37:20

share that. I mean, it's the

37:20

whole thing of influencer

37:23

marketing, like you're showing

37:23

who you are. What you believe.

37:27

And people are more trusted than

37:27

brands. And so knowing that, you

37:33

want to have a certain amount of

37:33

personality, even with or

37:36

without your image.

37:37

Can we talk about influencer marketing, because I know that this is like

37:39

where you really shine and love

37:43

and take a lot of the people

37:43

that you've worked with and

37:45

certainly Whaler is also doing a

37:45

lot of influencer marketing with

37:49

you. Can you first tell me what

37:49

it is?

37:52

Influencer

37:52

marketing was the old term, it's

37:54

leaning a little more creator

37:54

marketing. Creators being the

37:57

ones who are truly coming up

37:57

with this incredible content,

38:01

they're really engaged with

38:01

their audiences. I think the

38:04

word influencers a little bit

38:04

tarnished, just in terms of, you

38:08

know, it's kind of the shilling

38:08

out like, Oh, I love this

38:11

product, repeat, repeat, repeat.

38:11

But there's always been

38:15

influencer marketing, whether it

38:15

was celebrities that were

38:18

wearing the watch, or, you know,

38:18

tying in with with these

38:22

different people. So it's

38:22

emerged with social media, you

38:26

have this ability to not only

38:26

share content much faster, but

38:32

the ability to follow people

38:32

that you didn't know before. And

38:35

one of the things that's

38:35

happened is, if you look at the

38:38

trust that people have, trust

38:38

used to be in government, and it

38:43

used to be in big business. And

38:43

that has completely eroded.

38:47

People used to trust media as

38:47

well, like all of these things.

38:51

They're like, now they're at the

38:51

absolute bottom of the pyramid.

38:55

And the most trusted sources of

38:55

information are experts and

39:00

peers. And so you're seeing with

39:00

influencer marketing, creator

39:04

marketing, when it's done,

39:04

right, you're leveraging a voice

39:08

who is seen as an expert in the

39:08

vertical that you are needing

39:13

them to speak about, but they're

39:13

also really relatable. And so

39:17

they're really tapping into

39:17

those two things. And case in

39:19

point, I would say, you know, if

39:19

a car brand tells me like, oh,

39:23

we make the best cars, our cars

39:23

are super fun to drive. I'm

39:26

gonna be yearh, yeah of course,

39:26

you're gonna say that, like,

39:28

that's your job. If a friend of

39:28

mine who's super into cars is

39:31

like, oh my god, I just got this

39:31

car, it's awesome, I love it.

39:36

That resonates with me, because

39:36

I trust that person and they

39:40

don't work for the brand. Now,

39:40

with creators, you have to be

39:44

careful when you're looking at,

39:44

you know, potentially hiring

39:47

somebody, how much of their

39:47

content are they working for

39:50

brands versus how much of it is

39:50

organic and their own content

39:55

not brand driven. You want to

39:55

make sure that the vast majority

39:59

of it there is not these brand

39:59

relationships and you also want

40:02

to make sure that they're truly

40:02

into the brand that they are

40:06

promoting. You know, when I

40:06

worked at William Morris

40:08

Endeavor I brought this offer to

40:08

this teenager. It was like six

40:13

figure offer to promote this

40:13

quick service restaurant they'd

40:18

like to Instagram posts and like

40:18

a ridiculous amount of money,

40:21

and he turned it down. And that

40:21

was the rough day for me because

40:25

I was like, you could buy a

40:25

Tesla, but you're too young to

40:29

drive and you're turning this

40:29

down like it was just time.

40:35

That's exactly what you want

40:35

them to do. Because he was like,

40:39

Oh, I don't really like this

40:39

brand. I like their competitor.

40:43

And so it was actually perfect,

40:43

because then I could say, okay,

40:47

one awesome for sticking to your

40:47

beliefs. And two, now I can go

40:53

to the competitor and say, hey,

40:53

guess what, you know, I have

40:55

this talent that absolutely

40:55

loves your brand, and really

40:59

wants to work with your brand.

40:59

That's what you're looking to

41:02

find. A lot of brands would come

41:02

to me and say, especially the

41:07

big brands five years ago or so

41:07

would get their money together

41:10

and be like, Alright, we're

41:10

ready to do influencer

41:12

marketing. Like, can't we get

41:12

Kim Kardashian? And it was,

41:17

always like Yes, I mean, you

41:17

probably can with a certain

41:21

amount of money. But is that the

41:21

voice that's going to have the

41:25

authority, the trustworthiness

41:25

in that vertical and seem

41:30

authentic and relatable? One of

41:30

the campaign's that works really

41:35

well - and it's like, I do this

41:35

for a living, but it worked well

41:37

on me - was, you know, I'd saved

41:37

a certain amount of money, and I

41:40

was like, Ah, I need to start

41:40

investing somewhere. And I don't

41:43

know how to do it. And it's so

41:43

much work and research and

41:46

everything you would look up, it

41:46

was like, Oh, we have the best

41:49

rates, and we are the best at

41:49

investing your money and

41:51

whatever. And I was just like,

41:51

Ah, I can't. And then Tim

41:54

Ferriss had a podcast that was

41:54

sponsored by Wealthfront. And it

41:58

was like, first $10,000 managed

41:58

free. And I was like done,

42:03

because he is someone who's

42:03

going to have done a ton of

42:08

research. Is Wealthfront the

42:08

very best? Maybe not, but it's

42:13

going to be one of the top fives

42:13

because he would not have

42:15

partnered with them otherwise.

42:15

And so that to me was like,

42:20

okay, good enough for him to do

42:20

a partnership with, good enough

42:24

for me. If it had been Kim

42:24

Kardashian, I would have been

42:26

like that. But then, again, if

42:26

Tim Ferriss was like, shilling,

42:32

you know, lipstick that stays on

42:32

longer, I would be like, what?

42:35

And then it's really all about

42:35

finding the right voice, who's

42:39

having the right conversation

42:39

with your target audience.

42:43

That's such a

42:43

great example, I think of

42:46

influencer marketing and action

42:46

that people can really

42:48

understand. Because I think that

42:48

there's a lot of misconceptions

42:51

about what influencer marketing

42:51

is, what it looks like to work

42:54

with someone in that industry.

42:54

And I think that anytime any of

42:58

us put marketing dollars towards

42:58

something, we're probably

43:01

looking to see your return on

43:01

our investment pretty quickly

43:04

and something that's measurable.

43:04

So for someone who's just

43:07

getting into influencer

43:07

marketing and looking to explore

43:10

this, what can they do to set

43:10

attainable and realistic goals?

43:15

Yeah, you have to

43:15

figure out what is that case

43:18

study that you want at the end,

43:18

and then reverse engineer the

43:22

campaign?

43:23

Oh, I really love

43:23

that. That's great.

43:26

Look at like, you

43:26

know, if you are a car brand,

43:31

you need to get people to test

43:31

drive your car, because chances

43:35

are, unless they've done that

43:35

they're not buying. So everybody

43:39

has the purchase funnel of

43:39

awareness first, then

43:42

engagement, then action. Gotta

43:42

start with the awareness layer.

43:47

And then maybe different stages

43:47

of your campaign stage one,

43:49

maybe just boom, awareness play,

43:49

let's see what's working what's

43:53

resonating, then the next one is

43:53

more like get people engaged and

43:56

get people liking and following

43:56

our socials, get them to our

43:59

website. And then the last being

43:59

like, get them to purchase. But

44:03

I think if you really look at

44:03

what are those end goals that

44:07

you want the person to do? What

44:07

success look like, and know that

44:13

you can't jump all the way to

44:13

the bottom of that funnel,

44:15

usually. So what are the steps

44:15

to get there. And so you want to

44:18

make sure it's as streamlined as

44:18

possible that people can do

44:22

whatever it is that you're

44:22

hoping that they do. One thing I

44:25

see brands neglect to do that I

44:25

think is really important is

44:28

tell the influencer why you

44:28

chose them. This is like we saw

44:31

all of these pieces of content,

44:31

these three really resonated

44:35

with us, we want something like

44:35

this for our brand. Because

44:39

they're constantly creating all

44:39

kinds of different things.

44:42

They're testing and learning

44:42

too. They're their own brand.

44:45

And so they may not know why you

44:45

hired them specifically. This

44:49

also really helps because it

44:49

forces you to know why you hired

44:52

them. And to know that like you

44:52

might love them as a creator.

44:57

But if they're not the right

44:57

person to actually speak your

44:59

message, if you can't actually

44:59

see anything they've done in the

45:02

past that would really be on

45:02

brand for you, then maybe it's

45:06

not so much a fit. But also

45:06

think about creators in

45:10

different ways because you can

45:10

leverage a creator for just

45:14

their artistic ability to create

45:14

amazing content for you, maybe

45:19

they don't have a big social

45:19

reach. And you just want that

45:23

amazing piece of content and

45:23

that personality and you know,

45:27

their ability to engage. But you

45:27

can also leverage them for their

45:32

audience as well. Also, you

45:32

know, a brand kind of has a

45:36

certain tone of voice. You can

45:36

leverage influencers, to speak

45:40

their truth about your brand, to

45:40

their audience in a way that

45:45

maybe your brand couldn't. And

45:45

that I think, is a really

45:48

powerful place to play as well.

45:48

I also love giving influencers

45:54

like, Hey, here's the few of our

45:54

key messages and pick which one

45:59

resonates most for you. You want

45:59

to make sure that they are

46:02

creating something that is

46:02

authentic to them, that is on

46:07

brand for them, otherwise, their

46:07

audience is also going to be

46:10

like what this is ridiculous,

46:10

like you're just shilling at

46:13

this point, you know. And so

46:13

just making sure that you've got

46:16

something that is really on

46:16

brand for your brand, but it can

46:20

be a little edgy, it can be in a

46:20

different voice, like, don't be

46:23

afraid of that, and leverage

46:23

that talent and make sure that

46:27

it's really coming from them as

46:27

well.

46:30

You know what I'm thinking about? Scott, this might be also true for you,

46:32

but I'm thinking about a lot of

46:34

the people that I work with, or

46:34

that I think about in my

46:38

sphere...and not only are you

46:38

offering Sybil, the opportunity

46:42

for us to understand, okay, how

46:42

can I include influencer

46:45

marketing in my own strategy,

46:45

but also, I have people that I

46:50

work with that might also

46:50

consider themselves or would

46:53

aspire to be influencers as

46:53

well. I mean, it's actually a

46:57

lot more accessible these days

46:57

because of the trust in our

47:02

content creators that we've had

47:02

the opportunity to get to know

47:05

them in a new way. So you're

47:05

giving this perspective of how

47:09

can I position myself also as an

47:09

influencer, and perhaps even see

47:13

myself as an influencer? And

47:13

what difference does that make

47:16

about how I position my

47:16

messaging and strategies that I

47:20

use and whatnot?

47:21

Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's interesting, I was working with

47:23

a pharma brand at one point, and

47:26

they had a product that helps

47:26

kids get over their cold faster.

47:31

And they were like, oh, you

47:31

know, we want to partner with an

47:34

influencer in this space. And I

47:34

think they were thinking more

47:36

like a doctor, a nurse. Great.

47:36

Absolutely, you can do that. You

47:40

could also partner with, you

47:40

know, moms, they're not doctors.

47:45

But if you partner with a mom

47:45

who's got like four kids, who's

47:49

like literally seen it all, been

47:49

through every cold four times

47:52

over, and they have used the

47:52

product and they are like, oh,

47:57

yeah, I'm just from now on, I

47:57

give them this. They get over it

48:00

faster. That mom is such a

48:00

trusted expert in that space, I

48:05

would almost say to me, I would

48:05

look at that. And it would

48:08

resonate more than a doctor

48:08

saying it.

48:11

100%. I

48:11

mean, the first place I go with

48:13

any question is to my local

48:13

Facebook moms group, like they

48:17

know everything. The know

48:17

everything; they have an opinion

48:22

and they're usually really

48:22

right. But, you know, you got

48:26

Dr. Google and you got your

48:26

local moms group who are going

48:28

to answer the question about

48:28

what do you do with this rash?

48:30

Right? Or how do I get my kids

48:30

over this cold? But you're, I

48:34

mean, I think that it's easy for

48:34

us to think about influencers

48:37

being the Kim Kardashians or the

48:37

you know, so far outside of my

48:42

scope or you know, my budget,

48:42

certainly. But who am I

48:47

influenced by? And who are the

48:47

people that might buy from me?

48:51

Who are they influenced by? And

48:51

how do I leverage those kinds of

48:54

connections?

48:55

Yeah. Oh,

48:55

absolutely. Well, and I think,

48:58

you know, it's interesting,

48:58

because it's like everybody that

49:01

we're hearing information from,

49:01

seeing information from, we're

49:05

picking up on all of this, and

49:05

even listening to your podcast

49:08

and the episode that you did for

49:08

like, the Good Bottle Company. I

49:11

was like, oh, I need to be

49:11

better about this. You know,

49:15

it's not in my GO yet. But I was

49:15

like, Who else can I do? What

49:19

else can I do is like, I'm

49:19

inspired by that. And it's

49:22

interesting. Today, 40% of the

49:22

content that people are

49:26

consuming is created by

49:26

creators, when we were going

49:30

through like three TV channels,

49:30

if you like, wiggled the rabbit

49:34

ears in a certain direction.

49:34

And so now there's just all of

49:43

these amazing rabbit holes that

49:43

you can jump down and social

49:46

media. And there's going to be

49:46

these different experts and

49:49

these different voices. And I

49:49

think that's actually such a

49:52

cool thing. The one thing that

49:52

I'm hopeful about with social

49:56

media is that we as a society

49:56

compartmentalize ourselves so

50:01

much and it's very this, like, I

50:01

go into business mode and head

50:05

down super focused, like this is

50:05

what I'm doing. And then when

50:08

I'm with friends, it's a little

50:08

bit different. And I think my

50:11

hope with social media is that

50:11

it really does start to show

50:15

that we have all of these facets

50:15

and that you can have all of

50:20

these facets and you can have

50:20

blue hair and a rhinestone

50:23

eyepatch and be excellent at

50:23

your job. And I think that,

50:26

like, we're still having to

50:26

break that barrier down and like

50:30

myself included, like, I still

50:30

come from this place of like,

50:34

Oh, but I need to be in heels

50:34

and slacks, you know, and it's,

50:37

it's gonna be interesting to see

50:37

how social media starts to

50:40

change that conversation over

50:40

the generations.

50:45

Absolutely.

50:45

There's so much more visibility

50:47

and representation as well, it's

50:47

nice to see that, you know,

50:51

people are, there are more

50:51

stories to be had other than the

50:55

ones that we could get on PBS,

50:55

you know, with rabbit ears. So I

50:59

love hearing that perspective,

50:59

too, because I can get really

51:02

down about social media a lot.

51:02

And it there's a lot that's icky

51:08

about it, but it gives us such

51:08

access, there's a lot of hope to

51:12

be had in it.

51:13

Well, and it's

51:13

interesting. I mean, that's one

51:16

of the other pieces that drew me

51:16

to Whaler is that their entire

51:19

ethos is about empowering

51:19

creators, and that they really

51:23

want to promote all of the

51:23

different creative voices. And

51:26

representation is so, so

51:26

important. So one of the things

51:29

that makes them really different

51:29

as a company is it's not just

51:31

So Kate, that was

51:31

Sybil Grieb.

51:33

the influencer marketing piece.

51:33

Like they have a whole tech

51:37

component where they're building

51:37

these proprietary tech

51:40

platforms, both for the brands

51:40

to be able to use as well as the

51:44

creators to be able to use. They

51:44

also represent talent. Because

51:47

in that way, they're staying

51:47

very close to like the the

51:51

talent managers, they're very

51:51

close to the talent. They're

51:54

very close to the platforms

51:54

they're seeing, oh there is an

51:58

algorithm change. And

51:58

everybody's upset about this.

52:01

Like we know constantly what is

52:01

going on, we've got our finger

52:04

on the pulse. There's the brand

52:04

partnerships side, which I'm on

52:08

the brand partnerships side. So

52:08

that's putting together these

52:12

really bespoke campaigns for

52:12

clients. And then there's also

52:15

the Innovation Hub. And I'm also

52:15

on the Innovation Hub side,

52:19

which is Web4, the metaverse,

52:19

NFTs. All of what's coming down

52:22

the pipeline, what's coming

52:22

around the corner. And the piece

52:26

that I get the most excited

52:26

about. I mean, I get, it's like

52:29

you go back and forth being

52:29

like, this is terrifying. We're

52:33

gonna live in a video game,

52:33

what? But at the same time,

52:36

we're all in a virtual

52:36

experience right now. Like I can

52:40

see you guys. This virtual

52:40

experience ends when we hang up

52:43

from Zoom. What does it look

52:43

like if it's a persistent world

52:47

and we're all meeting in this

52:47

metaverse? And so you know, the

52:50

idea of the metaverse not being

52:50

new, obviously, like I was

52:54

playing World of Warcraft in

52:54

2006. And you know, persistent

52:57

world, I go eat dinner, everyone

52:57

else is still running around

53:01

killing orcs, whatever. But

53:01

there's this idea of like,

53:04

really making sure we're at this

53:04

pivotal point where the

53:07

metaverse, we don't exactly know

53:07

what it's going to shake out to

53:11

be, We have no idea. I mean,

53:11

it's still there's all these

53:15

things being built. If you told

53:15

me 20 years ago, it wasn't going

53:18

to go into clothing stores, and

53:18

I was gonna buy pictures of

53:22

things online. I would be like,

53:22

you're totally kidding. Yeah,

53:25

like, we don't know how it's

53:25

going to evolve. But it is

53:29

coming. And it is evolving. And

53:29

pieces are being built here and

53:32

pieces there. And hopefully,

53:32

they'll interconnect in some

53:36

way. But it's this really

53:36

exciting time where we have to

53:39

get these different voices in

53:39

there. Because if you look at

53:43

what's happening, it's very like

53:43

early days gaming, and it's

53:46

predominantly white. It's

53:46

predominantly male, and it's

53:49

predominantly high household

53:49

income. And so if we aren't

53:53

getting other voices in to help

53:53

build and shape this Metaverse,

53:57

to help create all of these

53:57

different things. I do feel that

54:00

that's going to happen

54:00

eventually. But wouldn't it be

54:03

amazing if it was kind of from

54:03

the beginning?

54:17

Oh my gosh,

54:17

she's so fantastic. Thank you

54:19

for bringing her on.

54:21

Yeah, she's really

54:21

really good. She's so funny.

54:24

Again, I think if I make some

54:24

really, really expert, humorous

54:29

guests lately, which I'm really

54:29

happy about. But I really loved

54:32

this episode, because you and I

54:32

both have a love/hate

54:34

relationship with marketing.

54:35

Oh my gosh,

54:35

I think that that's true to say

54:38

for me, and I think it's true to

54:38

say for a lot of people. You

54:41

know, I don't know if you have

54:41

this experience, but a lot of

54:44

times I'll get into

54:44

conversations initially with

54:47

clients and they'll say phrases

54:47

like, I'm bad at marketing, or I

54:51

need to focus more on marketing.

54:51

And it just becomes this like

54:54

massive concept. It's like this

54:54

behemoth when you say it that

55:00

way. And so I always feel like

55:00

if you're staring at something

55:05

big, you're gonna have a love

55:05

hate relationship because you're

55:08

like, ooh, if I could crack that

55:08

nut I will do so well, but also,

55:13

wow, it's a big one to crack.

55:15

It's such a huge

55:15

way. Think about it. every

55:18

single client that I work with

55:18

is the same thing. And even for

55:20

myself, I think I'm like - you

55:20

and I talked about this and

55:22

like, I need to do some more

55:22

marketing. But I think

55:25

marketing, it can be

55:25

complicated, it can be

55:28

expensive, it could represent a

55:28

lot of what we don't know, like,

55:32

I got to learn all this stuff

55:32

now. And it really feels like a

55:36

pass/fail, you know, you're

55:36

throwing a lot of money at

55:39

something, you might not see the

55:39

return on it. So it represents a

55:41

lot of risks, too. So I think,

55:41

you know, marketing really is

55:44

this massive concept for so many

55:44

people.

55:48

Which is why

55:48

I loved talking with Sybil,

55:50

because I feel like she really

55:50

starts to help us break it down

55:56

a bit more, and take very

55:56

specific action so that we can

56:02

start to have a different

56:02

relationship with it other than

56:04

this big old, massive thing that

56:04

we all know, we have to do.

56:07

Completely. Although I have to say, reflecting back on this episode,

56:08

it was really interesting to see

56:13

how my own resistance to

56:13

marketing came up.

56:19

We share the

56:19

same experience. Yeah. What wass

56:23

that like for you? Tell me about it.

56:25

So when I think of

56:25

marketing, for myself, I think

56:27

of total perfectionism. It

56:27

triggers my perfectionism so

56:31

deeply, where I feel like I need

56:31

to get it right. And that's also

56:35

because I love to figure stuff

56:35

out. I love like the nuts and

56:38

bolts of things. I'm a bit of a

56:38

techy person. So I'm like, this

56:42

just satisfies a lot of very

56:42

obsessive elements of my

56:45

personality all at once, which

56:45

probably isn't a good thing.

56:48

It's so interesting that you bring up the perfectionism because one of

56:50

the key takeaways here is the

56:54

sense of like, maybe

56:54

experimenting a little bit and

56:57

testing a bit. And so I can

56:57

understand that you're feeling a

57:01

resistance around it, because

57:01

it's like, well, it's got to be

57:04

perfect. But perfectionism is

57:04

not conducive to

57:08

experimentation.

57:09

It's so, it's the

57:09

opposite of experimentation.

57:11

Yeah, you're absolutely right. I

57:11

love that she said that

57:13

because... I was explaining this

57:13

to you last week outside of our

57:17

podcast..that I really am trying

57:17

to re approach my marketing,

57:20

like, there's something off about it for me, I'm not really connecting in with it. And so I

57:22

put it on pause while I figure

57:25

that out. And I was like, Oh, I

57:25

could just experiment with this.

57:29

Oh, my gosh, wouldn't that be great? You know, what was fun to talk about

57:31

with Sybil was, you know, in

57:36

those first couple of years of

57:36

your business, really being able

57:40

what is your

57:40

audience? What is the platform

57:44

that's right for you? How can

57:44

you play with your different

57:46

messages?

57:47

Yeah. And all of

57:47

that is just experimentation,

57:50

right? With your messaging. And

57:50

with the platform. And we

57:53

touched on this a little bit how

57:53

paid marketing really is there's

57:57

this misnomer that it's only for

57:57

people with, you know, in the

58:00

big leagues with bigger

58:00

companies. But Sybil was very,

58:03

very clear about pointing out

58:03

like that is not true. Smaller

58:05

companies can absolutely do this.

58:06

Yeah. And,

58:06

you know, just speaking to your

58:09

resistance component, right,

58:09

like, so you said that the

58:12

resistance comes around the

58:12

perfectionism. My personal

58:15

resistance around marketing is

58:15

like, Well, I'm not there yet.

58:19

Right? I am not at that place.

58:19

So I have to like know

58:24

something. And I think that this

58:24

is part of the like figuring it

58:26

out, there's probably a lot of

58:26

similarities between what you

58:29

and I are saying here. But like,

58:29

it shows up for me as in, I need

58:33

to be further ahead, in order

58:33

for this to really apply to me.

58:38

And as I was feeling that I was

58:38

realizing, Oh, can I challenge

58:42

this here? And what would it

58:42

look like for me to apply some

58:47

of the things that Sybil was

58:47

sharing with us? Right? Yeah. So

58:51

particularly when you I think

58:51

you're getting to this to about

58:54

the like aspirational

58:54

competitors, who are where you

58:57

want to be in three years, five

58:57

years, 10 years, even beyond?

59:01

Right?

59:03

like, throw 20

59:03

bucks at it, you know, throw 50

59:08

bucks on it, throw 100. It

59:08

doesn't need to be this $30,000

59:15

campaign, and you can be

59:15

aspirational, and just try to

59:20

play in that same ballpark with

59:20

people. And it's really

59:22

interesting, cuz when she said

59:22

that, I was like, Oh, right. We

59:25

don't have to stay small in our

59:25

marketing. And I think that that

59:29

was this limiting beliefs that I

59:29

had, that I didn't even realize

59:32

that I had until she said it.

59:33

Hmm, that's

59:33

interesting, like, so you can

59:37

align your your messaging, you

59:37

can align where you're going

59:40

with like, where you're seeing

59:40

some of your competitors, or the

59:43

companies that inspire you to to

59:43

keep going. You know, what we

59:47

aren't talking about here is the

59:47

first step that I think she

59:51

really gave us, which is that

59:51

research component. And I think

59:56

that I see a lot of people just

59:56

dive in like they just kind of

59:59

like go out there and start

59:59

throwing spaghetti at the wall,

1:00:03

which is great. As long as

1:00:03

you're assessing, how's it

1:00:05

doing? What's the data coming

1:00:05

back and showing you? But there

1:00:09

is that moment before to say,

1:00:09

okay, what are the people with

1:00:14

the resources that I don't

1:00:14

currently have, how are they

1:00:19

approaching this particular

1:00:19

problem? And there's... the word

1:00:24

didn't come up, but what I think

1:00:24

is present here is curiosity,

1:00:28

right? Like, how can I be

1:00:28

curious about what others are

1:00:33

doing? And how does how does it

1:00:33

work at this stage? And getting

1:00:37

really curious and playful with it?

1:00:37

I think so too.

1:00:37

And one of the things that I

1:00:40

always like to tell my clients

1:00:40

when we're doing this sort of

1:00:43

research, and this is so

1:00:43

important to do for everybody,

1:00:47

is number one, consider these

1:00:47

people, Yeah, you're, they're

1:00:50

your competitors, but they're

1:00:50

also your colleagues in your

1:00:52

space. Right? And I think that

1:00:52

shift of moving from competitor

1:00:56

to colleague is really important. Yeah, you might be going after some of the same

1:00:58

clients. But it's more of the

1:01:01

idea of, there's room at the

1:01:01

table for everybody. So see what

1:01:06

other people are doing. See what

1:01:06

resonates with you. And so I

1:01:09

love that she went there of like

1:01:09

research is really, really

1:01:12

critical. And also going back to

1:01:12

just what we were talking about,

1:01:15

and so you start to understand a

1:01:15

little bit about what you like,

1:01:18

and what you don't like. Because

1:01:18

there's a lot of stuff out there

1:01:20

that you're not gonna like, and you're gonna be like, I don't want to do it that way. And

1:01:22

you're like, great, it's your

1:01:25

business, you don't have to do it.

1:01:28

Well that where the benefits of marketing being actually so huge. There's

1:01:30

lots of ways to market, there's

1:01:33

so many different ways. You can

1:01:33

leverage so many different

1:01:37

strategies. And really here

1:01:37

today, we were focusing on, you

1:01:42

know, social media and

1:01:42

influencer marketing, which I

1:01:45

loved everything that Sybil was

1:01:45

sharing about her experience

1:01:49

with influencer marketing and what to do. But I was particularly excited - and this

1:01:51

speaks to also what you were

1:01:54

just saying about being a

1:01:54

colleague - is that many of you

1:01:58

listeners out there might want

1:01:58

to use influencer marketing or

1:02:02

creator marketing as a strategy

1:02:02

in your own business. And you

1:02:06

also might be an influencer or a

1:02:06

soon to be influencer. And so

1:02:12

when you look at this

1:02:12

conversation through that lens,

1:02:15

it is very exciting and

1:02:15

empowering.

1:02:18

It really is. And that was such a good question. When were you asked that I was

1:02:20

like, Oh, that's such a good point. Something else that you

1:02:22

had said prior to us getting on

1:02:26

this was talking about when your

1:02:26

message becomes too precious

1:02:29

that it can't evolve with you. I

1:02:29

love that you said that I didn't

1:02:32

want to let it go. Because I just thought it was so important for people to hear.

1:02:35

Yeah, you

1:02:35

know, I, I have a tendency to

1:02:38

feel like I need to hit the nail

1:02:38

on the head. Right? Like really

1:02:42

get it. And I'm actually

1:02:42

struggling with this right now.

1:02:46

My marketing support person,

1:02:46

Jenna, is always like, Can we

1:02:49

move on from this conversation,

1:02:49

please? But no, it's like,

1:02:53

what's the language? What's the

1:02:53

language? What's the language?

1:02:56

And I think that that is a

1:02:56

worthy inquiry. But I tend to,

1:03:01

when you feel like you have to

1:03:01

hit the nail on the head, that

1:03:03

means that you're kind of

1:03:03

married to that message once you

1:03:06

get there. And then I just

1:03:06

forget that we need to

1:03:11

constantly be listening in.

1:03:11

What's actually resonating for

1:03:17

our listeners? And just because

1:03:17

I like those words, doesn't mean

1:03:22

that it makes any difference to

1:03:22

them. Right. And I think that

1:03:26

this happens a lot, particularly

1:03:26

for us, you and I've spoken

1:03:30

about this probably together and

1:03:30

with our own clients is like

1:03:33

when are you using language that

1:03:33

really speaks to you because

1:03:37

you're further ahead in your

1:03:37

clients journey than they are,

1:03:41

right. So like, you know,

1:03:41

they're just not necessarily

1:03:45

looking for what we know

1:03:45

they're... I'm not being very

1:03:49

specific, I bet you could come

1:03:49

up with a specific example of

1:03:52

this.

1:03:53

I just love that

1:03:53

point that you made. And as

1:03:56

you're talking, what was

1:03:56

resonating with me was what just

1:04:00

Sybil's whole journey about how

1:04:00

she started 100 Hats. And then

1:04:04

she did what was right for her,

1:04:04

which was that she sort of put

1:04:07

it down and move back into a

1:04:07

corporate job because she saw

1:04:10

this opportunity to learn. And I

1:04:10

think so many entrepreneurs, I

1:04:14

think that there's an echo of

1:04:14

that in this which is like:

1:04:17

always be staying true to

1:04:17

yourself and never holding

1:04:19

anything that's too precious,

1:04:19

and letting that message and

1:04:23

your business always evolve with

1:04:23

you. I think that your business

1:04:25

has to. I think it's critical. I

1:04:25

think that if you're not

1:04:28

invested in your business and

1:04:28

your message, your clients are

1:04:30

going to hear that, your customers are going to hear that. And that lack of

1:04:32

engagement is going to show up

1:04:35

somewhere. So yeah, I just think

1:04:35

that you're right. Just like it

1:04:39

becoming too precious that it

1:04:39

can't evolve with you. It's

1:04:41

that's a that could be really,

1:04:41

really tricky thing if that

1:04:44

happens. So not being quite so

1:04:44

close fisted around it, I think.

1:04:48

Yeah. And you know, bringing that sense of playfulness, experimentation and

1:04:50

curiosity. It's all there. I'm

1:04:54

so glad you brought her back

1:04:54

around to Sybil's journey

1:04:57

because I was so taken with that

1:04:57

moment when she was like, Wait,

1:05:00

this isn't going to grow the way

1:05:00

I want it to.Ddoing the work

1:05:03

that I really love to do. And

1:05:03

you can always whether it's a

1:05:07

business or a career or a

1:05:07

contract job or something...

1:05:10

like you can always find the

1:05:10

work that really speaks to what

1:05:14

you want to do. We don't need to

1:05:14

compromise and grow for the sake

1:05:19

of growth, but we can grow in

1:05:19

the way that we want. And her

1:05:23

business and her story really

1:05:23

echoes that beautifully. It was

1:05:27

awesome.