0:22

Hi, I'm Tara

0:22

Beckett, and I want to welcome

0:26

you back to Season Two of let

0:26

perfect burn. It's September,

0:35

which means it's National

0:35

Suicide Prevention Awareness

0:38

Month. And to honor this month,

0:38

my guest today is Liz Swaggart,

0:43

an award winning mental health

0:43

advocate, who is also an author,

0:46

keynote speaker, former Big Four

0:46

partner at PWC. As well as many

0:52

other professional roles. Liz

0:52

has battled depression since her

0:56

teens, and almost four years

0:56

ago, made plans to end her life.

1:01

Liz tells us, I have a beautiful

1:01

mind and a jerk brain. I hope

1:08

her candid interview can give

1:08

light and hope to all who are

1:12

suffering not only this month,

1:12

but always, as Liz tells us.

1:18

Until we put our voices

1:18

together. We're all just

1:21

individually shouting into the

1:21

void. When we come together,

1:25

that's when I think we galvanize

1:25

and we give people hope.

1:38

Hello, everybody, welcome back.

1:38

I'm Tara Beckett, and you're

1:42

listening to let perfect Burton.

1:42

And today I'm so excited to have

1:46

in studio, Liz swagger. And Liz

1:46

got her undergrad and history.

1:53

She loves school. So she went on

1:53

to get her MBA and operations

1:56

and supply chain management. And

1:56

then she got her PhD in

1:59

psychology, where she focuses on

1:59

leaders and leadership. Liz

2:04

spent 20 years in business six

2:04

as a partner in the big four.

2:09

And then she took a major pivot.

2:09

She was the co founder of a tech

2:13

startup on a mission to empower

2:13

young people to be safer online

2:17

by helping them make better

2:17

decisions. She's very public

2:20

about her mental health journey.

2:20

And now she is a mental health

2:23

advocate. Liz, thank you so much

2:23

for being here. I'm so excited

2:27

to speak to you.

2:28

It is my absolute

2:28

pleasure. Thank you so much for

2:30

having me.

2:33

So, Liz, I think

2:33

to start I would love to hear

2:39

what are you where and what was

2:39

happening in November of 2019.

2:45

Oh, 2019 November.

2:45

It's, it's really baffling to me

2:50

that that was like three years

2:50

ago next month. Because it just

2:54

feels so immediate. Like it just

2:54

in some ways it feels like it

2:58

was yesterday. And in other ways

2:58

it feels like truly a lifetime

3:02

ago. In 2019, in November, I

3:02

became suicidal. And I

3:10

experienced the the rock bottom

3:10

of the worst major depressive

3:14

episode of my life. And I've

3:14

been sort of navigating

3:18

depression since I was about 16

3:18

years old. So I grew up in New

3:21

York City. So having a therapist

3:21

as a 16 year old is kind of like

3:26

you know, a requirement. And I

3:26

remember my therapist like we

3:30

were like, I remember we are

3:30

we're in the brownstone, my

3:33

therapist was in a brownstone.

3:33

And I remember my therapist

3:37

saying to my mom that I probably

3:37

had clinical depression. But for

3:42

some reason that I cannot recall

3:42

now, like I wasn't formally

3:46

diagnosed I was I certainly

3:46

wasn't put on medication, which

3:50

makes sense. I mean, I'm 16

3:50

years old. But that was kind of

3:54

my first data point of like, Oh,

3:54

something is going on in my

3:58

head. So I got to college. I

3:58

moved to Houston, I went to Rice

4:04

University go ALS. And as an as

4:04

an 18 year old I came face to

4:11

face with my first like major

4:11

depressive episode as an adult.

4:16

And for me depression, these

4:16

major depressive episodes, they

4:22

don't look like Hallmark or

4:22

Lifetime movies. Like there's

4:27

not like a lot of like, lying on

4:27

on couches with well placed

4:31

cushions like crying into a box

4:31

of Kleenex. No, no like that's

4:37

just it's not it. I feel

4:37

nothing. Absolutely nothing. And

4:43

it's the struggle to feel

4:43

combined with this crushing

4:49

sense of failure that I do in

4:49

this place. Because everybody

4:53

else is normal. I am broken. I

4:53

will never be okay. I will I

4:59

will never come out of this. And

4:59

like, it's this. It's like the

5:04

heaviest weighted blanket you

5:04

can imagine. It's just this

5:08

heaviness that sits on me. And

5:08

when I describe not being able

5:12

to get out of bed people aren't

5:12

But literally, you just put your

5:15

feet on, like you just roll out

5:15

of bed. And I'm like, imagine

5:19

feeling that you are, you are

5:19

under such a heavy weight that

5:25

it is, it is literally

5:25

impossible to move out from

5:30

underneath it. Yes. And that's

5:30

how so that's how I've

5:34

experienced depression. It's

5:34

this heaviness, inertia, and

5:38

this complete disconnection from

5:38

the world. It's like watching

5:41

somebody else live my life, and

5:41

not having any sense of

5:46

connection to myself or others,

5:46

or more over a desire to. So I

5:54

sort of lived with depression,

5:54

my whole adult life. So like,

5:58

from the time I was 18, to the

5:58

time that this major depressive

6:04

episode that really like took me

6:04

to rock bottom happened, like I

6:08

would go through like, weeks,

6:08

months, even years of like being

6:11

fine. Yes. And then depression,

6:11

like hiding right there on the

6:16

fringes, comes crashing down.

6:16

And I figured out like, okay, I

6:21

can keep my life going, I can

6:21

keep this like poppin career

6:24

going, I don't have time to stop

6:24

for therapy, right, like, so

6:27

I'll just I can go to like one

6:27

of these sort of like clinics, I

6:31

can I can get medication when I

6:31

need it. And I can just push

6:35

through, because I'm strong and

6:35

determined and sheer force of

6:39

personality. And that is not

6:39

really a thing. So I got to like

6:45

September, October of 2018. And

6:45

I started to feel the slide into

6:49

major depression. And for me,

6:49

that looks like stopping self

6:53

care. Like, I don't do my

6:53

laundry. Like that's the leading

6:56

indicator, my mental health is

6:56

like my laundry, and working

6:59

out. And eating well, like, the

6:59

things that you do because you

7:03

love yourself, and you want to

7:03

take good care of yourself. So

7:06

you can be there for those you

7:06

love. And that just all fell

7:10

away. And I went on this sort of

7:10

rinse and repeat cycle where

7:15

like every two to three months,

7:15

I would go back to like the

7:19

clinic I went to I saw a

7:19

different doctor every time,

7:22

right, and I would just up my

7:22

medication and up my medication

7:26

and up my medication. I got to

7:26

June 2019, I was on the max dose

7:32

of three different medications.

7:32

One of one of which was like, I

7:39

was an off label prescription

7:39

for like as like a mood

7:43

stabilizer and had some really

7:43

horrific side effects that he

7:46

didn't understand. And so I get

7:46

to June 2019, and I am losing my

7:50

short term memory. I'm losing my

7:50

I'm losing my ability to put

7:54

sentences together. I am I am. I

7:54

am falling apart. I am so

8:00

dysfunctional. I was the

8:00

physical symptoms that were

8:05

manifesting. Were just at one

8:05

point, I went to the doctor

8:10

because I thought that I mean, I

8:10

was I was having symptoms that

8:14

are associated with some really

8:14

awful physical diseases. But all

8:18

of my tests were normal. So and

8:18

of course, it never occurred to

8:21

me to say, oh, yeah, and all of

8:21

these medications that I'm on.

8:25

And so I just I got to this

8:25

point, it was the week before

8:29

Thanksgiving, 2019. And I

8:29

realized, like, my, my kids were

8:36

gonna see that, like, I didn't

8:36

want to be with them. Like I

8:40

didn't want to be around them

8:40

because I couldn't relate to

8:42

them, like, kids are really good

8:42

at knowing when the adults

8:46

around them are disinterested

8:46

and disconnected. My greatest

8:50

fear is that my children would think it was because I didn't love them. Rather than because I

8:52

had no idea like I couldn't, my

8:59

mind couldn't be present in any

8:59

moments, because there was

9:02

absolutely no feeling. And it it

9:02

made sense to me at the time.

9:09

Like I I remember the logic of

9:09

it, that everyone around me

9:15

would be better off if I wasn't

9:15

here. Because no matter where I

9:20

was, if I was at work, I was

9:20

disappointing everybody at home.

9:23

If I was at home, I was

9:23

disappointing everybody at work.

9:26

And no matter where I was, I was

9:26

a disappointment to myself. And

9:31

that was that was when I set the

9:31

plans in motion to end my life

9:35

and I am really fortunate that

9:35

that did not happen. I have a

9:41

wonderful I have a wonderful

9:41

life partner. My My husband was

9:45

there when I needed him. And

9:45

somehow I found enough of the

9:50

words and he he and he was able

9:50

to quickly put together what was

9:56

going on? Yes. And so I am so I

9:56

am here. But the outcome of that

10:04

was that I, I was just I was I

10:04

was just kind of done with

10:09

everything because it just felt

10:09

like I am in this hole, I will

10:13

never get out of it in no

10:13

matter, it will not never get

10:17

better recovery isn't possible.

10:17

All of the things I know now to

10:22

not be true and that I'm on this

10:22

like mission to tell others you

10:29

you are not alone. Hope is

10:29

warranted, like recovery is

10:34

possible. But in that moment,

10:34

none of that none of that was

10:37

true for me. And it took a very,

10:37

very hard life reset. In fact,

10:42

it took me stepping away from my

10:42

job for a year or two to get

10:49

well. And again, looking back

10:49

like I can't believe that was

10:53

three years ago. And at the same

10:53

time, I feel like if I sort of

11:00

reach out, I can still touch

11:00

that time.

11:03

Yeah. Sorry, Liz,

11:03

I'm having a moment. It's just

11:08

really difficult. Like you're

11:08

one of the first people again,

11:11

like I was hospitalized a year

11:11

ago. So it yeah, like I can

11:15

understand it feels really far

11:15

away. And then it feels like oh,

11:17

I just did that yesterday. But

11:17

you're speaking to the

11:21

experience in such a way that is

11:21

so candid, that I just want to

11:26

hear more people like you.

11:26

Because it is still very silent.

11:33

And how helpful it would have

11:33

been for me to hear your voice

11:36

before, you know, last year for

11:36

me. So I love what you're doing

11:41

already. I know we're not at the

11:41

interview. Just how powerful

11:47

that is. Thank you.

11:49

And thank you for being

11:49

so bold in in sharing your own

11:54

experience. Because you're right

11:54

until we put our voices

11:58

together. We're all just

11:58

individually shouting into the

12:03

void. But when we come to when

12:03

we come together, that's when I

12:08

think we galvanize, we give

12:08

people hope. And so I am so

12:14

appreciative in all of what

12:14

you're doing. Just just to

12:21

center and amplify the voices of

12:21

people who've had the shared

12:26

experience. And it is it there

12:26

are dimensions of it that we

12:30

find resonant with each other.

12:30

And then there are things that

12:33

are just uniquely personal to

12:33

each of us. Yep. And it's really

12:38

like, this is not the Olympics

12:38

of suffering. So it's, it's not

12:43

a it's not a competition. But to

12:43

quote the Kaiser Chiefs, it's

12:48

not a competition, but I'm

12:48

winning. It's one of those

12:52

things, though, right? Where I

12:52

think the especially when you

12:58

look at sort of social media and

12:58

Instagram and things like that,

13:00

like somehow it almost becomes

13:00

this like competition for some

13:05

folks. And I think what I love

13:05

what you're doing here, but I do

13:08

think that as as we just create

13:08

space for people to share their

13:15

own experiences, to hear from

13:15

others to find those points of

13:19

resonance, and then to respect

13:19

the differences in our

13:23

experiences. Sure. Because what

13:23

we each experience, that was our

13:28

reality, that was completely

13:28

valid for us. And others may not

13:34

experience depression the same

13:34

way I did. My experience will be

13:38

different from theirs. And we

13:38

are we are still part of this

13:43

community. That as I like to say

13:43

I have a I have a beautiful mind

13:48

and a jerk brain. I love that we

13:48

live in this space, right? Like

13:54

there's occasionally it feels

13:54

like there's these two competing

13:57

factions in our heads, right?

13:57

Like, my mind is my mind does

14:03

beautiful things. And I know

14:03

that I mean, you mentioned I

14:07

love school, right? Like I've

14:07

I've had this incredible

14:12

opportunity to like, think and

14:12

do really cool things. And at

14:16

the same time my brain has tried

14:16

to sabotage me more times than I

14:20

can count. When you say help, that's that's

14:33

such an important it's, it's

14:37

it's an important word. It's

14:37

also a very broad word,

14:40

especially when we talk about

14:40

mental health and well being. I

14:46

really love the framework and

14:46

the end the program that is

14:50

provided by a mental health

14:50

first aid. International Program

14:56

it you know, it's very readily

14:56

accessible here in the United

14:59

States. dates. And it really

14:59

just gives you as an adult these

15:08

ways of supporting others who

15:08

are going through a mental

15:12

health challenge that focuses on

15:12

how do we get you to to

15:17

professional help? How do we get

15:17

you to people who know how to

15:21

help. And also it recognizes

15:21

that there is no one size fits

15:25

all. So what I like is that I

15:25

like I like approaches where

15:31

nobody is vilifying or

15:31

demonizing talk therapy, or

15:36

medication, or, or other or

15:36

holistic wellness practices like

15:41

yoga, and exercise movement as

15:41

medicine, sleep, eating well,

15:47

there are so many things that go

15:47

into our mental health and well

15:51

being. And there are so many

15:51

tools at our disposal, to to

15:57

maintain to get mentally healthy

15:57

to maintain our mental health. I

16:01

think that it's so important

16:01

that when we realize that when

16:04

we sort of offer help, we're not

16:04

offering a one size fits all.

16:08

And we are respecting that

16:08

different solutions, different

16:11

choices will be right for

16:11

different people at different

16:14

stages of their lives. So I have

16:14

I have had some really awful

16:19

experiences with medication,

16:19

really awful. And I also know

16:25

that medication has helped to

16:25

save my life. Right? So it

16:31

really has been being able to

16:31

work with really good

16:35

professionals in mental health

16:35

who can iterate with me because

16:40

I wish that it was like set it

16:40

and forget it, but it isn't

16:45

mental health is it's iterative

16:45

and you keep working through it.

16:50

A little digression. I had I

16:50

convinced myself sort of

16:55

immediately after I was out of

16:55

the danger zone like not to get

16:59

all Kenny Loggins here. But

16:59

like, as soon as I was sort of

17:02

out of like the suicide Danger

17:02

Zone, I convinced myself that I

17:05

could like Eat, Pray Love my way

17:05

out of this, like I was going to

17:08

be fine. It would take like 12

17:08

weeks, all I have to do is get

17:11

off all of these medications,

17:11

and I'll be fine. So I worked

17:15

with a therapist and a

17:15

psychiatrist. And I got off on

17:18

the medications. And three weeks

17:18

later, I realized that I wasn't

17:21

actually getting better. I

17:21

needed I needed medication, that

17:26

I needed that. And that was a

17:26

crushing blow to me because I

17:30

felt like I'd failed. I was so

17:30

convinced that I'd failed. And

17:35

then I double failed. Because

17:35

after I went back on actually

17:38

needed to increase the dose.

17:38

Yeah, yeah. And that was just

17:43

like, oh my gosh, like I am the

17:43

worst. Like, I even suck at

17:48

getting better from like,

17:48

depression. And what I had to

17:52

get to this point of was like,

17:52

why am I why why am I having

17:59

this reaction to a tool to help

17:59

like to, like legitimate help

18:06

and support? Like, why am I

18:06

having why? Why is it that I

18:09

have internalized our societal

18:09

view of mental health as a

18:14

character flaw? This? No. And I

18:14

think when I was able to kind of

18:20

reject that. I just, I was like,

18:20

You know what, this is what this

18:27

is what is helping me to be me

18:27

at my best right now. And so I

18:32

am going to do that. But again,

18:32

in society, like, we don't get

18:37

mad at like, like nobody, nobody

18:37

is ever going to say to somebody

18:42

with diabetes. You know, if your

18:42

pancreas just tried harder,

18:46

totally, like really? 100%.

18:46

Like, if you really if you were

18:51

just a better person, your body

18:51

could process sugar

18:54

appropriately, like to no really

18:54

no, like, here's insulin. Oh,

18:59

look, it works. And that's the

18:59

thing. It's like, this is like a

19:04

malfunctioning pancreas is not a

19:04

character flaw. Just as whatever

19:09

is happening between my brain

19:09

and my mind is not a reflection

19:13

on my worth as a human being.

19:13

And so I have tools. I have

19:17

techniques, I have support I

19:17

have I have professional help

19:21

that I can bring to bear on my

19:21

mental health to be the best me

19:25

I can. So I'm going to do that.

19:25

Yeah,

19:29

yeah. I mean, I

19:29

completely agree. And I also

19:33

just tried to honor the fact

19:33

that it still really bothers me.

19:36

Like, there's something about

19:36

when I have to do the strip,

19:40

like I have a like a flick. You

19:40

know, pillbox? When I'm taking

19:44

them regular, I'm good. And then

19:44

there's something about

19:46

refilling them, that I can see

19:46

them all and I'm just like, What

19:50

the hell is happening? Who the

19:50

hell are you that this is your

19:54

life, and you're on way more

19:54

than you were when you were

19:56

hospitalized? What the hell? And

19:56

then it's like That's not nice,

20:01

that's not fair that you are not

20:01

being kind to yourself, and what

20:05

is that going to do. And this is

20:05

making you be able to do things

20:08

like your podcast, write your

20:08

book, be with friends, like, be

20:12

present with your children just

20:12

knock it off.

20:16

It's a hard message,

20:16

right? Like, it's a hard message

20:19

to deliver to ourselves because,

20:19

and I, you know, not to not to

20:24

circle back too hard to the

20:24

theme of the podcast. But as

20:29

somebody who used perfectionism

20:29

as a weapon to attempt to fight

20:35

depression, like, I thought that

20:35

I could perfection my way out of

20:40

depression. I mean, I thought I

20:40

could perfection my way out of a

20:42

lot of things in life. Same, but

20:42

it was, it was like, if I if I

20:50

just set up because what what

20:50

perfectionism gave me was an

20:54

incredibly rigid framework that

20:54

that substituted for the that

21:02

while stood in for the lack of

21:02

control I felt in my life,

21:05

because like, I feel, I feel

21:05

powerless over what's happening

21:09

in my mind. So what I am going

21:09

to do is adopt this incredibly

21:14

rigid structure for how I'm

21:14

going to do things. And so if I

21:18

am perfect, if I if I just do

21:18

everything exactly right, then

21:24

somehow, I will have control.

21:24

And these other things that are

21:29

going on will miraculously be

21:29

defeated, which is also

21:33

completely not true. So it's

21:33

like, okay, well, if I if I hit

21:37

all of like, and for me, it's

21:37

compounded by the fact that I

21:41

have OCD, which I found out

21:41

about during my year long

21:45

recovery. So obsessive

21:45

compulsive disorder is it's

21:50

similar to depression, it is

21:50

horribly misconstrued or

21:54

misrepresented in the media. Not

21:54

all of us are alike. We're not

21:58

all neat freaks. We're not monk.

21:58

OCD is, is really the experience

22:05

of having intrusive thoughts,

22:05

like, in other words, things

22:10

that think she thinks you don't

22:10

want occupying your mind.

22:14

Because either they're

22:14

irrelevant, or they're harmful.

22:16

But things are thoughts. You

22:16

just like they don't belong in

22:20

your head at that time. And they

22:20

just plant themselves. They're

22:24

like, they're like squatters,

22:24

right? They just move in. And

22:29

then they slowly start taking

22:29

over to the point that this

22:34

intrusive thought becomes an

22:34

obsession. And it's like a

22:38

pressure cooker. So it's bottled

22:38

up. And so you're pushing this

22:45

down again and again, and trying

22:45

to contain it, contain it and

22:48

contain it. And finally, it gets

22:48

to a point where the only way

22:52

you can relieve this pressure,

22:52

this tension, this not clinical

22:56

anxiety, but this is sort of

22:56

like anxiousness is is some is

23:01

to act. And that's the

23:01

compulsive piece. And how it's

23:05

read by others is it's read as

23:05

impulsive. And it's like, no,

23:09

this is an impulsive, I didn't

23:09

just decide to do this, this has

23:12

been bottling up forever, right.

23:12

And so when you also have this

23:18

tendency of having these

23:18

intrusive thoughts become

23:22

obsessions that you then have to

23:22

act on, I found that it really

23:26

can be this double whammy,

23:26

because things that things that

23:31

play so well, to my natural

23:31

desire for perfection, become

23:36

these obsessions. So, for

23:36

example, things that now and

23:39

again, when I say them, they

23:39

sound so ridiculous out loud,

23:44

but in my head, it is like Bible

23:44

truth. Steps, I have to get

23:51

10,000 steps a day, like so the

23:51

idea enters my head, that if I

23:55

don't hit certain benchmarks,

23:55

then something bad is going to

24:01

happen. Like I I'm, usually it

24:01

goes back to body image, like my

24:08

my, so I'm just gonna leave that

24:08

there. I don't want to not get

24:12

triggering into that. But it

24:12

becomes connected to that. And

24:16

so I will lose hours at a time

24:16

being so focused on Well, I have

24:23

to hit this particular metric.

24:23

And I have to do this and I have

24:26

to do that. Because if I don't,

24:26

this overwhelming obsession,

24:31

this that I have, I can't tamp

24:31

it back down. And again, like my

24:39

neighbors would be like, Wow,

24:39

you're really into fitness. And

24:42

I'm like, Yeah, that's the

24:42

reason that I walk in circles

24:46

around like my little

24:46

neighborhood like when I was

24:49

when I was in the process of

24:49

recovering. I did a lot of

24:53

circles around the neighborhood.

24:53

And it took a lot of work with

24:56

my therapist to get past the

24:56

point of I'm being so having my

25:03

life ruled by these obsessions,

25:03

and then these compulsive

25:07

actions. So it's it's one of

25:07

those things where I think are

25:13

we have some of us like we have

25:13

these these natural tendencies

25:19

toward perfection, or at least

25:19

the pursuit of it, we will never

25:23

achieve it. And it becomes this

25:23

substitute like this stand in

25:29

for control, which we don't

25:29

feel. And rather than learn how

25:34

to be uncomfortable, and sit in

25:34

that learn how to learn how to

25:39

sit in the discomfort. That's

25:39

when the compulsive actions come

25:45

in. So one of the things that

25:45

I've had to work on is learning

25:49

to keep those thoughts at bay,

25:49

keep them from becoming

25:54

obsessions, and recognize that I

25:54

will, there's discomfort that I

25:59

have to sit in, like life is

25:59

hard. And there are things that

26:01

I have to just sit in. Yes. And

26:01

that building that level of

26:06

endurance like that, that mental

26:06

fortitude. That's a huge part of

26:12

my recovery. And, yeah, it

26:12

doesn't come in pill form.

26:15

Right.

26:17

And it's, it's part,

26:17

it's part of my it's part of

26:23

what I do, it's not everything.

26:31

So what would you

26:31

say is your current challenge?

26:34

You know, you're three years out

26:34

from sort of the rock bottom?

26:37

Like, what do you feel good

26:37

about today? And what what kind

26:40

of keeps keeps you keeps you

26:40

moving? Like, needs to have

26:44

attention?

26:47

I love that. Um, well,

26:47

it's just, it's a really

26:50

insightful question. So what I

26:50

am most attuned to, I'll put it

26:58

that I'll phrase it that way.

26:58

What I am most mindful or aware

27:02

of right now is hubris is

27:02

because it would be really easy

27:12

to say, Look at me, I'm great.

27:12

Everything's wonderful again,

27:16

which, by the way, is how I spent the first 20 years. Everything's fine. It's, it's

27:20

complacency, right. It's, it's

27:26

feeling like, oh, well, I'm

27:26

doing so well. I mean, do I

27:29

really still need the

27:29

medication? Like I'm doing so

27:31

well, like I do, you know, don't

27:31

really need to keep going with

27:34

therapy. Like, you know, like,

27:34

Isn't isn't therapy for when

27:40

you're really bad? Like, what do

27:40

I have to talk to my therapist

27:43

about everything's great. It is

27:43

getting into a place of thinking

27:48

that somehow this is like,

27:48

there's a destination, there is

27:53

not a destination, there are

27:53

there are ways there are

27:55

waypoints, right? There are

27:55

milestones, there are

27:57

waystations. Like, there, there

27:57

are stops along the journey, but

28:02

it's a journey. So for me, it's,

28:02

it's not letting myself think,

28:10

Oh, I'm fine. I don't need

28:10

anything else. Therapy therapy

28:16

is just as much for the good

28:16

times as it is for the bad

28:20

times. Therapy is just as much a

28:20

preventative health measure, as

28:28

it is and a treatment in an

28:28

acute situation. So I think it's

28:35

continuing to approach therapy

28:35

with the intent of how do I how

28:41

do I keep working through my

28:41

stuff? How do I how do I keep

28:48

taking the steps to care for me?

28:48

When it kind of feels like, you

28:53

know, I think I'm like, aren't I

28:53

done with this? By no, like, I

28:56

should be finished? Right? It

28:56

was three years ago, like, we're

28:58

good. No, no. And, and also,

28:58

just, I think it's a corollary

29:04

to that is not getting too down

29:04

when I have like bad days, or

29:09

even a bad week, and like really

29:09

trusting myself to put the tools

29:16

to work when that happens. And

29:16

and recognizing like I have not

29:22

failed because of how to bad

29:22

day. Like depression is like the

29:28

person nobody invited to the

29:28

party who doesn't seem to know

29:32

that it's time to leave. So it's

29:32

like I guess we're here

29:47

it's really funny, I when I look

29:47

at like where I've pulled

29:51

various tools, I birth pulled

29:51

various tools that I use. One of

29:57

the biggest tools that I have

29:57

that I draw on Now, funnily

30:01

enough, I learned in a I learned

30:01

in a place you wouldn't think

30:05

that like, mental health and

30:05

wellbeing, coping skills would

30:08

be would be, like, abundant. And

30:08

it was actually the pressure of

30:13

being a partner in the Big Four,

30:13

because one of the things I had

30:16

to learn was that not everything

30:16

that feels like a crisis in the

30:23

moment it actually a crisis. And

30:23

when you're in a very senior

30:28

leadership position, you set the

30:28

emotional temperature of the

30:35

room. Yes. And so if I freaked

30:35

out, everybody around me was

30:41

gonna freak out. Because when

30:41

something went sideways, you

30:45

could always you can always

30:45

really tell that everybody knew

30:47

something was going sideways, because all of a sudden, they'd all look at me. Like, look at

30:49

me, and they're like, Mommy will

30:53

solve this. And, and it's the

30:53

thing is that, that I came to

30:59

realize, like, it was such an

30:59

amazing training ground for

31:03

understanding is this and I

31:03

would ask, is this a crisis? And

31:08

the answer 99% of the time is

31:08

actually no, it's not a crisis.

31:12

It's really uncomfortable. It's

31:12

going to be very unpleasant to

31:16

get through it, you know, it's

31:16

gonna, it's gonna hurt a little

31:21

bit, there's probably going to

31:21

take a couple, it's probably

31:24

going to require some extreme

31:24

humility. But yeah, not a

31:28

crisis. So if it's not a crisis,

31:28

it's manageable. Like this very

31:32

manageable and it is a crime

31:32

that 1% of the time, it is a

31:35

crisis. You've got you've got

31:35

support, you've got partners,

31:39

you've got people, you are not

31:39

alone. And being able with my

31:44

own mental health to ask myself,

31:44

Is this a crisis? And then

31:48

realizing no, sis, actually,

31:48

it's not a crisis, right?

31:51

Nothing here is fatal or final.

31:55

It just sucks. Yeah.

31:57

And we're and and I can

31:57

do hard things. I know I can do

32:02

hard things. I have done hard

32:02

things before I can do hard

32:05

things again. That's, that's,

32:05

that's been one thing that's

32:10

been really valuable for me the

32:10

other one, and we sort of joked

32:13

a little bit about this before

32:13

the pre show. I mentioned sort

32:18

of movement as medicine and

32:18

physical exercise as a important

32:24

element of my overall well being

32:24

but certainly how I helped

32:27

manage my mental health. And I

32:27

joked about a peloton. Leader

32:33

leaderboard. So my most of my,

32:33

one of my dearest friends got

32:39

got me into peloton with her as

32:39

sort of I was just sort of there

32:43

as like, I was sort of her

32:43

emotional support peddler, she,

32:47

she, this was something during

32:47

the pandemic, it was something

32:49

she really wanted to do. And she

32:49

wanted a buddy and that was

32:52

like, alright, I'll, you know,

32:52

go along. And what I discovered

32:57

was the was a type of training

32:57

that professional cyclists have

33:02

been doing forever and ever, in

33:02

fact, many professional or just,

33:06

you know, advanced athletes have

33:06

been doing where you work, you

33:11

work in zones, so on on the bike

33:11

you work in, in zones that are

33:15

levels of effort. And the goal

33:15

is that you establish kind of

33:19

like, what is what is your

33:19

threshold? Like for power? Like

33:24

what's, what's the threshold

33:24

that you can like, keep at for

33:28

like, an hour before you're just

33:28

like a puddle on the floor? And

33:30

then how do you systematically

33:30

work yourself up to pushing that

33:36

threshold higher? Like how do

33:36

you? How do you how do you put

33:40

in the work to improve, like,

33:40

your thresholds, your baseline,

33:44

your level of fitness. And what

33:44

I found out is that that kind of

33:49

training involves prolonged

33:49

periods in the saddle, in, in,

33:56

relatively like, in

33:56

uncomfortable, but not

33:59

impossible levels of effort.

33:59

Right. And when I first got into

34:03

it, I was just like, wait, I'm

34:03

here for 90 minutes doing what?

34:08

And, and what I what I've

34:08

learned, though, over the time

34:12

that I've been doing this for

34:12

last couple of years, is I have

34:16

learned how to pace myself

34:16

through these periods of real

34:21

discomfort. It's like yes, this

34:21

is uncomfortable. And I know

34:25

it's going to end but I know it

34:25

will end in fact, I can watch if

34:28

I really want to I could watch

34:28

the clock until it ends, which

34:30

by the way makes it slower. Like

34:30

I know when this is going to

34:34

end, I know what I need to put

34:34

in between now and then I know I

34:39

can do it. And over time I have

34:39

become more comfortable in the

34:47

uncomfortable. And that is when

34:47

I think about like what is the

34:52

number one element that is that

34:52

has contributed to my recovery

34:58

and then my continued well being

34:58

And that is that I have learned

35:01

how to work through these

35:01

periods of discomfort without

35:06

having to self medicate I'm not

35:06

talking about, I'm not talking

35:09

about prescribe medication

35:09

without having to self medicate,

35:12

whether that is with food that

35:12

is with alcohol, that is with

35:15

something else that is really

35:15

not additive or creative to my

35:20

well being. But I've learned

35:20

that I can sit in these moments

35:24

of discomfort, they will end I

35:24

can get through them. And on the

35:29

other side, I will feel better.

35:29

And right now this sucks. It's

35:36

like yes, the sun will come out.

35:36

And right now it is raining. So

35:40

it is not sunny, it is not sunny

35:40

at the moment, the sun is still

35:45

going to come out. Two things

35:45

are true. It like the sun will

35:48

come out and right now is awful.

35:48

Yes. And just living living in

35:54

in paradox, right? Because

35:54

that's kind of life, like we

35:57

live in this space where like,

35:57

there were things that are like,

36:00

wow, this is really tough, this

36:00

is really hard. I would really

36:04

like this to not be happening.

36:04

And knowing Yes, there will be a

36:07

time when it isn't. And right

36:07

now I just I need to hang on to

36:12

get to that time. And I know

36:12

that I can. I know that I can.

36:15

And I know that I don't have to

36:15

do something destructive to

36:18

myself to get through to that to

36:18

that other side

36:37

well, there's I

36:37

also, you know, you touched on,

36:41

you know, your daughters, when

36:41

you were, you know, really sick.

36:45

But in your wellness, like, can

36:45

you describe some of the joys

36:48

that you have with them?

36:50

Oh my gosh, they're so

36:50

awesome. I, my daughters are so

36:54

cool. Like, they're like, I, I

36:54

look at them, and I'm like, how

36:59

am I or mom, like, they're,

36:59

they're super cool. You know, I,

37:05

um, I've talked to them openly

37:05

but age appropriately, right?

37:09

They're eight and 10. So I talk

37:09

to them openly and age

37:12

appropriately about how I how I

37:12

take care of all of me. So they

37:19

see me exercise, they love they,

37:19

they love to exercise they, they

37:25

want they want to exercise with

37:25

me, they enjoy going on walks my

37:29

elder daughter and I have

37:29

actually like, we've done five

37:32

K's in different parts of the

37:32

world together. We actually did

37:35

a 5k on her fifth birthday in

37:35

Melbourne, Australia. They, I

37:41

think what's most wonderful

37:41

about about them and about being

37:46

able to be present with them is

37:46

one watching them learn. Like

37:51

it's really fun to watch them

37:51

learn and figure stuff out. It's

37:55

also wonderful to watch them

37:55

develop opinions, like as their

38:00

as their own little people. And

38:00

let me they have points of view,

38:04

they have very clear points of

38:04

view. And it's, I'm never I

38:12

never cease to be amazed by

38:12

their boundless creativity.

38:15

They, they love what we call

38:15

dramatic play. So in their room,

38:21

they will transform the let's

38:21

see recently, what have they

38:23

done, they transformed they

38:23

transformed the room into a

38:27

hotel. Perfect. So you had to

38:27

make a reservation. And then you

38:30

came and like they had they had

38:30

created like little rooms and

38:34

they had like there was a there

38:34

there there was there was the

38:38

Plus there was the Premium Suite

38:38

and then and then there was the

38:42

platinum suite and okay loyalty

38:42

cards. I mean, they really they

38:46

really want. I just I love to

38:46

see this right like it's just, I

38:51

love watching them. Just

38:51

watching their creativity,

38:55

watching their innovation. And

38:55

just and seeing how, how they

39:01

are internalizing, taking care

39:01

of themselves. I don't know that

39:07

I've ever been happier than when

39:07

my elder daughter was just like,

39:10

Mommy, I would love to go on a

39:10

walk for you. But I wasn't with

39:14

you. But I've I've had a long

39:14

day. And I think the best thing

39:17

for me to do is sit on the couch

39:17

and read and I'm like, Yes, yet

39:23

you have. I was she was like, I

39:23

know you really want me to go on

39:26

a walk with you. But I need to

39:26

sit on the couch and read and

39:29

I'm just like all parenting

39:29

stops now it's not going to get

39:32

better. Like yeah, that's that's

39:32

that's it right? Like you know

39:37

what you need to do for yourself

39:37

right now. And you are you don't

39:41

feel you know that you are

39:41

empathetic that I would enjoy

39:45

doing this with you. That

39:45

matters to me. You recognize

39:49

that this would mean a lot to

39:49

me. And you're kind in telling

39:54

me that you don't want to do the

39:54

thing that you know I want to do

39:57

and you are also not doing what

39:57

your mother Do which is do what

40:01

would make the other person happy?

40:03

Yes, yes. Yeah,

40:03

I'm

40:05

like, wow. Okay, so,

40:05

um, it took me like 40 something

40:10

years to figure that one out,

40:10

but you managed to do it at the

40:13

ripe old age of 10. So, um, all

40:13

right, you're winning. I mean, I

40:19

think that isn't like isn't that

40:19

really what we're all ultimately

40:22

striving for is setting an

40:22

example or creating and

40:27

fostering an environment where

40:27

other people can be kind can be

40:31

empathetic and can also

40:31

prioritize that which they need

40:35

for their for their wellness. So

40:35

yeah, it's been it's been quite

40:40

a journey. And, you know, I

40:40

still believe that like, even

40:46

better days are ahead. While I

40:46

know that there are going to be

40:49

difficult ones too.

40:51

Yeah, yeah. Liz.

40:51

Oh, this is a good one. Thank

40:55

you so much. And I before we

40:55

end, I would love to hear for

41:00

you what let perfect burn means.

41:05

It means let letting

41:05

go. It means it being setting

41:10

perfect means throwing

41:10

perfection into the bonfire. And

41:14

letting go of this belief that

41:14

there is that there is

41:17

perfection when really there's

41:17

only progress.

41:23

Thank you so much, Liz. Oh, my gosh,

41:25

thank you. I want to

41:25

like reach to the screen and

41:27

like a really big

41:29

me, too, will be

41:29

in touch. I can't wait for to

41:34

see what you do next. Meanie.

41:34

I'm so glad. I'm so glad that

41:40

you are a pioneer out in the

41:40

world, especially for those

41:44

corporations that you used to

41:44

work for. I think that your

41:47

voice is really needed in those

41:47

places that tend to attract

41:51

people like you who are, you

41:51

know, smart and driven and

41:54

perfectionist, you know, just if

41:54

they can hear that there's

41:57

another way and still doing the

41:57

job that they do. I think that'd

42:00

be so amazing. Liz, thank you,

42:03

Tara, thank you and

42:03

thank you for being you. Thank

42:05

you for being bold and stepping

42:05

into perhaps a time in your life

42:11

you didn't necessarily expect

42:11

maybe even want and for just

42:18

creating this space. You're a

42:18

beautiful human and I am so

42:22

grateful for you and your voice

42:22

and your work. And I am here so

42:27

you are never alone. Thank you

42:27

again so much for having me.

42:37

Perfect