0:00

Welcome to let the boys kiss the

0:02

creation of queer ships, where we ask

0:04

the question, is it queer baiting,

0:06

queer coding, or queer? Canon.

0:09

This week, we'll be discussing buck and

0:11

Eddie from 9 1 1 I'm

0:14

Maddie.

0:14

And I'm Kelsey.

0:31

So 9 1, 1 is

0:33

a thing that I think you probably didn't even know existed

0:36

when I first suggested it.

0:37

Not only did I not know it existed,

0:40

but obviously this episode has come

0:42

several episodes into our run of the

0:44

podcast. And for awhile, I would

0:46

go back to our podcast list and be like, wait

0:49

what's 9 1, 1. it.

0:52

You know, firefighter procedural,

0:55

don't worry about it.

0:55

great. Which has been on for four

0:58

seasons at this point. So it's not

1:00

like it's a new show.

1:02

Well, to be fair, it has the most generic

1:04

title it could possibly.

1:06

That's true.

1:07

For a show about first response. So

1:10

they're not really trying hard with the

1:12

title. It's not attention grabbing, but it

1:14

is a Ryan Murphy executive

1:16

produced show. It is

1:19

highly advertised on

1:21

Fox. It's a big show for them. If you're not watching

1:23

Fox though, you're probably not seeing anything.

1:25

And I don't usually have cable.

1:28

Exactly. So it's easy to miss it. But

1:31

nine 11 is, as I've alluded, do

1:34

a firefighter procedural, there

1:36

are, there is a cop character and

1:38

the sort of like gimmick of it is that

1:40

you're seeing a lot of it through the lens of

1:42

the nine 11 call center operators.

1:45

So they're connecting all of these various

1:48

elements takes place in LA. You're

1:50

mostly with all of these firefighters

1:53

and EMT is at a specific firehouse.

1:56

And the specific characters that we

1:58

are here to talk about are buck and Eddie,

2:00

who are both firefighters. So

2:03

we'll do our usual, who has seen what

2:05

part of the conversation, how did we

2:07

how do we get you up to speed on nine 11?

2:09

Well, once again, you gave me a watch

2:12

list. Thank you.

2:13

You're

2:14

I watched about, I think, 12 episodes,

2:16

and then there were also a couple of. Clips

2:19

you gave me from some additional episodes.

2:21

So that is what I have seen.

2:24

Maddie, what have you seen.

2:26

I have seen all four seasons of the show.

2:28

Eddie, one of the characters is not

2:30

in the first season. So all of the episodes that

2:32

you watched are between seasons two

2:35

and four. And

2:37

I think it's fun show, like, not that that's really

2:39

the purview of this episode, but it's

2:42

a good procedural. If you like procedurals, what

2:44

are the elements of the bucket?

2:46

Eddie relationship?

2:47

So, this was interesting

2:49

for me again, right? I'm not seeing

2:51

a large percentage of, of the actual

2:53

show. It reminded me very heavily

2:56

of Madonna. I think there's a lot

2:58

in common between both of these,

3:01

these ships. So, you know, one of them had. Because

3:03

kids or a kid, and there's like a domestic

3:06

component of them being

3:08

two dads and

3:10

yeah. The friend helping to raise their

3:12

friend's kids is an interesting

3:14

element of both.

3:16

Yeah. It, it, it struck me as a little similar

3:18

and obviously we'll get into the

3:21

elements of how the creators interact

3:23

with the fans. And I, I guess that's a bit of a different

3:25

tale, but you know, they're both, again,

3:28

procedural. There's tension. People are

3:30

in danger, yada

3:32

yada, yada.

3:33

They're saving people and stuff. I mean, they're

3:36

beating up fewer people than

3:38

Steven

3:39

Which honestly is good. Cause they're like

3:41

EMT. So really that would be

3:43

Yeah. If your firefighters are coming into the situation

3:45

and kicking your ass for information, that probably

3:48

seems like not helpful. So

3:50

where we meet the two of them at the beginning of

3:52

season two, they're introducing Eddie as a new character.

3:55

And I kid you not the origin

3:57

of their relationship, the entire

4:00

premise of how they meet each other is a

4:02

buck is mad. Cause Eddie's too hot.

4:05

That's how their story

4:08

starts. So at the beginning of season

4:10

two, the, I guess they're selecting

4:13

firefighters from the LA firehouses

4:15

to be in the men of LA

4:17

FD calendar. Everyone knows

4:19

about the firefighter calendar and. It's

4:22

like trying to go up for this firefighter thing

4:25

and Eddie's new to the station

4:28

and they introduce him by

4:30

showing him putting a shirt on, in slow motion

4:32

and playing what a man, what a man,

4:34

a man, what am I doing? Good, man.

4:37

So that's this that's

4:39

pissed. Cause Eddie is so hot and

4:41

then they work together in a firefighter

4:43

type way. They put their lives in each other's

4:45

hands and then all of a sudden they're best for.

4:47

And not only are they all of a sudden best friends.

4:49

I don't know how far apart these two

4:52

episodes were, but a relatively,

4:54

I guess. Okay. There are two it's

4:56

the next episode.

4:57

They're not, if they're not apart,

5:00

they are together.

5:01

they had this, this conflict because Eddie's too

5:03

handsome and buck is jealous and

5:06

Eddie's like, I don't really understand what's going

5:08

on.

5:08

Why are you pissed at me? We just met her.

5:11

And then the next episode buck learns Eddie

5:13

has a son named Christopher

5:15

who he immediately is like, oh, cute kid.

5:17

I love kids. And then, so there's this huge

5:19

earthquake in the episode, it spans over

5:21

a couple episodes. Obviously they're

5:23

out and about Eddie is worried

5:26

about what's going on with his son. Cause he's

5:28

a single parent and he doesn't have a great support

5:30

system in an lax. For

5:32

his son. And so after,

5:34

you know, they get through the day, buck

5:37

drives Eddie to pick up Christopher

5:39

from school late and they'll look but

5:41

gives Eddie is Eddie is hugging. His

5:43

son is he's in love with him

5:45

already. Like It's

5:46

It's like the third episode that

5:49

they're together in.

5:51

it's a real tender.

5:53

Like it's the second he sees him with

5:55

his son. His heart is just melted and

5:57

he's completely latches

6:00

himself on to them as a family

6:02

unit and decided. He's

6:04

part of this now. So then

6:06

he immediately proceeds to do a bunch

6:09

of like very intimate friend stuff

6:11

with him where like he knows that Eddie

6:13

needs someone to help him take care of Christopher. So

6:15

this caretaker woman that he knew from the

6:17

first season, he introduces them and she

6:19

helps. Christopher is set up in like

6:22

a good school for what? Oh, I don't think

6:24

we've mentioned Christopher as cerebral palsy. So there's like

6:26

a special needs situation and

6:29

they're navigating, you know, what school they should

6:31

go to. And buck helps with that.

6:33

And he, all of a sudden is just like with

6:35

them all the time, doing stuff

6:38

together, they're just a little family unit

6:40

from like episode four

6:42

on

6:44

Yeah.

6:44

when they've just met each other. So

6:46

there are these moments in the second season. Their

6:49

first season where Buck's

6:51

sister who's also in the show

6:53

and is a 9 1, 1 operator

6:56

starts to tease him about his like affection

6:59

for Eddie. So he has been

7:01

moping over. Ex-girlfriend

7:04

from the first season for most of season two.

7:06

And there's a time when Maddy, his sister

7:08

says, so, does your boy crush Maine? You're over Abby.

7:10

She's like constantly mentioning Eddie. And

7:13

when Maddie meets chimney, who's

7:15

another firefighter and Eddie, they're all

7:17

helping her move into a new apartment and chimney

7:19

and Eddie walked into the kitchen and she says to

7:21

buck, he is so cute. And buck of course

7:24

assumes that she's talking about it. And

7:26

he's like, he gets that a lot. You should

7:28

see him with his son and then Matt, he makes it clear. She's

7:30

talking about chimney, but that's a shock

7:32

to buck. And then over the course of

7:35

this first season, people had started to like the

7:37

dynamic of the two characters and the writers

7:39

started to wake at it. So there's an episode at the

7:41

end when it's Christmas and

7:43

the two of them take Chris to go see Santa

7:45

Claus at the mall. And as they're leaving.

7:48

One of the elves at the mall is

7:50

like you to have an adorable son to buck

7:53

and Eddie's already walked away and buck sort

7:55

of is like, ah, thanks. He

7:57

just walks away. Cause he does not know how to handle

8:00

that comment. That's the origin

8:02

of them in the first season that they're together pretty

8:04

quickly. They're very close. And then

8:07

what happens in season two things get even

8:09

more

8:10

I assume you mean season three, the

8:12

Right. Yeah. That's what I mean, I want to pick

8:14

a way to talk about it. It's like, I want to just

8:16

say their second season.

8:18

Yes. Their second season. So

8:21

kind of similarly to season two, season three,

8:23

starts with a big disaster

8:25

that is impacting like most of the

8:27

city really, or a lot large portion of the city.

8:29

And in this case it's a tsunami. So

8:32

I didn't see this happen, but apparently

8:34

the end of season two, Buck

8:36

has a really bad accident. So he's

8:39

on desk duty or he hasn't even come back in at the

8:41

beginning of season three and he's clearly

8:43

very depressed cause he's a lot of his identity is

8:45

wrapped up in being a fire person.

8:48

And so Eddie, just

8:51

to like get him to do something and get out of the

8:53

house, it's like, great. You

8:55

have free time watch Christopher today. So

8:57

he and Christopher go to the pier.

8:59

Monica pier.

9:00

And then a tsunami hits, which

9:02

obviously is a bad time. And

9:05

he tries really, really hard to keep

9:07

hold of Christopher and he's trying to save other people

9:10

while this is all happening. And

9:12

he loses track of, of Christopher

9:14

during the tsunami, a bunch of stuff

9:16

happens. He ends up at like

9:18

a, a camp.

9:19

Like an emergency medical camp where they're sending

9:22

everyone. Yeah.

9:23

And Eddie is there. And he

9:25

has to tell Eddie that he lost Christopher, but luckily

9:28

Yeah.

9:29

Christopher right behind them. So

9:31

they didn't really lose him for too long.

9:33

But of course, you know, Eddie's like, I know you

9:35

did your best and I trust

9:37

Christopher with you. And he dropped Christopher off with him. Like

9:40

the next day.

9:41

Yeah, but because is sure that like,

9:43

he, you know, Eddie, he's going to write

9:45

him off. He's never gonna see him again. Cause

9:47

he lost track of Christopher. And then the next day

9:49

Eddie shows up and is like, you're taking care of Christopher

9:52

again today and buck is shocked. And

9:54

so Eddie has to tell him, there's no one

9:56

in the world I trust with my son more than

9:58

you. And it's like, you know, but.

10:01

Shocked to hear that.

10:03

So that's kind of like very early on in season

10:05

three, the issues with buck

10:07

and his like continue on where he's not being

10:10

allowed to come back to work. He ends up suing

10:12

the LA fire. Department.

10:15

Yeah. As soon as the city, cause like

10:17

they let him go back to work, but they won't let him

10:19

be on active duty even though his, his

10:22

doctors have cleared him. So

10:24

anyway, he sues the city and it

10:26

drives a wedge between him and the firehouse

10:28

ABI.

10:29

Well, he's not allowed to talk to them like at all,

10:31

while he's suing them. And he didn't think through like

10:33

what that meant for his interpersonal relationship

10:36

with Eddie and Christopher.

10:39

And so like, Yeah. Eddie

10:41

is at he's pretty upset. I think. Well, he's

10:43

upset too. Cause his ex wife

10:44

Yeah. At the same time as this

10:46

is happening, the mother of Christopher for Eddie's

10:49

ex wife, who he had like kind of gotten back

10:51

together with, and then they were maybe going to

10:53

break up again. It was unclear. She

10:55

dies in an accident. And so

10:57

all these things are sort of like left unsaid

11:00

and unhandled, and he is going

11:02

through a kind of a spiral about it and

11:04

dealing with all these anger issues. And he starts like

11:06

street fighting to get out his aggression

11:10

and he can't talk to his best friend through this whole

11:12

situation. So he's really pissed about it.

11:14

So, yeah, it's but eventually, you

11:17

know, there was all of the problems and, and but

11:19

comes back to the one 18.

11:21

Yeah. And then he, he forgives them, you know,

11:23

they're best friends and forgive him. So then

11:26

at the end of season three, There

11:29

is this incident where a kid is trapped

11:31

in a well classic firefighter situation.

11:33

And so they send

11:36

them firefighters to bring the kid up. Eddie's

11:38

down there to get the kid and

11:40

like a lightning strike hits

11:42

a crane that they're using for the winch

11:45

that he's on. And it falls over and

11:47

the well caves in, and

11:49

there's no way for him to get out. And

11:51

when this happens, but who still

11:53

up like top side, Loses

11:56

his complete shit. Like he's freaking

11:59

out and clawing at the ground. Like he's

12:01

going to dig down there by hand to get Eddie

12:03

out. And Bobby, his boss is having

12:05

to like, hold him back from doing

12:07

that super dramatic. And

12:09

then, you know, of course

12:11

that he ends up being okay. The premise of the episode

12:14

is like every main character gets

12:16

an episode that's called their name begins

12:18

to like Eddie begins and you get all these flashbacks

12:20

when he's down there too. What

12:22

it was like for him, he was in the army. So what

12:25

it was like from there. And then when

12:27

he came back and his relationship with his

12:29

parents and all that. And so then his life

12:31

flashed before his eyes, he sees buck a bunch.

12:33

Of course he magically escapes

12:35

and it

12:38

ends up coming back later as an even more important

12:40

moment than you know of at the time. But

12:43

it's very dramatic and buck freaks

12:45

out. Buck always freaks out when he's in danger,

12:48

which is like a rough situation when

12:50

you're both firefighters. Cause they're constantly

12:53

in danger all the time, but

12:56

then what happens in season four?

12:58

So, I didn't actually watch too much of season

13:00

four. There were a couple

13:02

of clips. And then I guess,

13:05

what is, is that

13:07

the finale, the survivors episode,

13:10

when Eddie gets here.

13:11

So, yeah, there's a reason you didn't watch much

13:13

of season four and that is,

13:15

they kind of lean away from their relationship

13:18

for a lot of season four because

13:21

they each have a lady in

13:23

their life. That's taking up a lot of their personal

13:25

story time. So Eddie.

13:29

Starts dating again, which he hasn't done since

13:31

his wife died and he's dating

13:34

the, his son's former

13:36

teacher who a

13:38

season or two ago, he had

13:41

like, they had him flirt with a little bit and

13:43

you like thought they were maybe gonna date, but nothing came

13:45

of it. And then they brought her back and they run into

13:47

each other and season four and they start dating.

13:49

And then that's the storyline. He

13:52

has to tell Christopher and Christopher

13:55

doesn't take it well. And he runs

13:57

to buck. He like takes his dad's phone

13:59

and orders an Uber and goes to Buck's house.

14:02

And Eddie has no idea where he is. It's

14:04

pretty dramatic, but that's, what's

14:06

going on in Eddie's world. And then

14:08

buck, this is funny because both of these

14:10

women came back from earlier. Seasons buck

14:13

is rekindling

14:15

a friendship with a woman that used to be kind

14:17

of like a fuck buddy, a couple of seasons

14:19

ago. Local news caster

14:21

person who they had a contentious

14:24

relationship with earlier on, but then they come

14:26

back. They become friends for this season. She's very

14:28

adamant through most of the season that they're

14:30

not going to get back together and they're only going to

14:32

be friends. And then

14:34

in the, at the end of the second

14:36

to last episode of the season, Eddie

14:38

gets shot by a sniper

14:41

who's targeting firefighters.

14:43

And then as we've seen. Buck,

14:46

obviously doesn't handle it well. So that

14:48

leads us into the finale where lots of stuff

14:50

happens.

14:52

Yeah. So they have to, you know, track down this

14:54

sniper and there's a whole. Rigmarole

14:57

with this guy, but I don't know.

14:59

I think the essential thing to right to take away is,

15:01

is buckets on handling the fact that Eddie

15:03

got shot? Well, he

15:06

feels it should have been him.

15:08

Yeah. He has very low sense of self-worth.

15:10

Does buck.

15:11

also a little reminiscent of the finale

15:14

of Hawaii. Five-O where Steve is like, take

15:16

me instead. Just not Danno.

15:19

It is funny that that's so fresh in our

15:21

memories and

15:22

there are a lot of similarities really. And,

15:24

you know, at the end of the episode, Eddie.

15:27

So wait, you missed a beat because while

15:29

Eddie, he is in like surgery

15:31

or whatever, buck is the one who has to take care

15:34

of Christopher. So he's the one who asked

15:36

to like, make sure Chris is okay, but he's also one that tells

15:38

Chris that his dad is here.

15:40

All right. And he has a total breakdown and Chris is like,

15:42

don't worry, Chris comfort, Tim, which

15:44

is really inappropriate.

15:46

Chris about his dad,

15:48

Well, you know,

15:49

but then he stays with Chris while

15:51

Eddie's in the hospital. Well, and then once

15:53

it becomes clear that it is going to be

15:55

okay, then there is an important

15:58

scene that I assume will

16:00

have consequences in the next season.

16:02

yeah. Eddie reveals to buck that

16:04

he's made him the legal guardian of

16:06

Christopher if Eddie dies. So. he's like,

16:09

see, you're not unimportant. You're essential.

16:12

And he announces that he made this decision

16:14

after the well incident from

16:16

a full season ago. And

16:18

he just didn't mention it to buck

16:20

because he was like saving it for a time

16:22

that he felt like buck needed to hear it.

16:25

I guess it's kind of a fascinating. Secret

16:27

to keep. So that's where we leave

16:29

off with the two of them were like, oh, I

16:31

missed one beat. Carla, the

16:34

woman who takes care of Christopher meets

16:37

Eddie's girlfriend in the episode before.

16:39

And is. Kind

16:42

of like, I'm happy you guys are happy, but

16:44

she's asking him how he actually feels

16:46

about the relationship. And he talks

16:49

to her about how great Chris thinks

16:51

it is. And like, Chris is having a great time with her and

16:53

Carla is like, make sure you're following your

16:55

heart. Not just Christopher's. And it's kinda like,

16:58

what's that supposed to mean as

17:00

a thing to keep in mind leading into the finale,

17:03

but that's where we leave off the two of them for

17:05

the moment. Obviously there's more showed up.

17:08

Yeah. So I think that is important and we'll

17:10

loop back around to it. The show

17:12

isn't over. It's

17:14

like, it's not even a, like a situation

17:16

where there could be a revival, all the

17:19

show just isn't

17:20

Yeah, it's not in danger of cancellation.

17:23

It's coming

17:24

I just think this might be the first thing

17:27

that we've actually done where there's

17:29

not some kind of conclusion

17:32

so far.

17:33

Well, leverage. I

17:35

think we knew was going to have a revival

17:37

season

17:38

But when it was over for a while,

17:40

so it was over

17:41

Yeah, you're right. It's I think the only thing we've done

17:43

that's actively Erin, so

17:46

that will play into our conversation later on.

17:49

But for the moment, I think that probably gives you the gist

17:51

of the two of them. And we can move

17:53

along to what the actors

17:56

say and do about the ship. Now,

17:58

the actors playing these characters are all

18:00

of our star who plays buddy and Ryan

18:03

Guzman. No buddy who plays. And

18:07

Ryan Guzman who plays Eddie. And

18:09

we also actually also have a little

18:11

quote from Jennifer Love Hewitt who

18:14

plays Buck's sister Mattie, but

18:16

we'll get to that later. So Oliver stark has

18:18

said a lot of things about fucking

18:20

Eddie. He is somebody who's,

18:22

you know, active on social media and engaging

18:24

with fans and all of that situation

18:27

and has not been shy about talking

18:29

about this relationship. So

18:31

I guess I'll give these to you in like, Vaguely

18:34

chronological order to see if there's

18:36

any evolution in what

18:38

he says about them. So in 2019,

18:41

which would have been probably

18:43

after the second season is the earliest quota.

18:47

He says the truth is I don't know where the story is

18:49

going in regards to buddy, I've

18:51

always spoken openly about how amazing I think

18:53

it is that you're invested in these two characters.

18:55

And I totally support that, but I feel uneasy

18:57

about retweeting stuff because I know it can sometimes

19:00

come across as me confirming something that's going to happen.

19:02

I don't want to get anyone's hopes up our

19:04

writers. 100% care about you and respect

19:07

the audience. I love getting to work for them and

19:09

completely trust in their ability to craft the story.

19:12

So he's already into this. I

19:14

support you, but I don't want to be on the record kind

19:17

of situation. Yeah. Which we

19:19

know how actors have gotten themselves in trouble being

19:21

on the record before

19:22

that we do.

19:24

then a year later in 2020

19:26

P gets asked about the buck Eddie dynamic

19:29

in terms of. Like how they

19:31

started to where their relationship ends up. He

19:33

says the writers and creators of the show did something very

19:35

clever when they didn't have us butting heads for

19:37

very long, we moved past that pretty quickly.

19:39

And any, and buck have been able to have this very positive,

19:41

whatever you want to call it, friendship bromance.

19:44

I know a lot of people look at it as more than

19:46

that. I'm very lucky to be part of the show. That's

19:48

so talked about keeping it big

19:50

PR drained green ants. They

19:53

ask if people I've seen the fan

19:55

videos that people make about bucket Nettie. Cause

19:57

this is It's one of the more

19:59

common things I think in this fandom, sometimes

20:02

people are more into videos. Sometimes

20:04

people are more into Vic. You know how it

20:06

This fandom is? not into creating a fan

20:08

lore page.

20:09

Honestly, what the hell? Where's your fan

20:11

lore page 9 1 1, not just this ship.

20:13

There is no 9 1 1 on fan.

20:16

Yeah.

20:16

Fascinating. So anyway, they ask him about the fan videos.

20:19

He says, oh, absolutely. Me and Ryan send

20:21

them to each other all the time. For me, that

20:23

relationship stays platonic. Or if it were to become

20:25

intimate, I think there's so much goodness that comes out

20:27

of it. I'm so astounded by how talented. Are

20:30

who put these fan videos together. They genuinely

20:33

have careers in editing. If they want to move into that,

20:35

the videos pull on my heart strings. It's

20:37

always nice to support the fan work.

20:40

That's the thing more actors should do because you

20:42

can't get in trouble for it to just be like you

20:44

guys are amazing.

20:45

that's true.

20:47

Yeah. And then

20:49

post season four, which is where we find

20:52

ourselves now. He gets asked.

20:54

You're very aware of the relationship between buck and

20:56

Eddie has become the cornerstone of the show

20:59

and show runner. Tim Manier has said that he doesn't want

21:01

to define that relationship anytime soon, but

21:03

as an actor, do you feel that at some point soon, you want

21:05

to see some sort of decision made either way about

21:07

where the relationship actually is or. He

21:10

says, I really feel for Tim in these moments,

21:13

I truly believe he's trying to serve the story,

21:15

the characters and the audience at the same time

21:17

and do what he feels is right. I don't say this

21:19

lightly, but I think he's a genius. I love everything

21:22

he puts together. So I give myself over to him and

21:24

give him my trust. I understand what he means

21:26

when he says he writes a scene and they come to life

21:28

in a way he maybe did not expect 20 created

21:30

these characters, but he is right when he says

21:32

there's a definite chemistry between the two of us on screen.

21:35

And we'll see what happens in the coming season. Always

21:38

good to just be like anything could happen.

21:40

Keep watching.

21:42

Yeah. Very noncommittal.

21:44

Yeah. When did you realize fans were

21:46

seeing the chemistry between you and Ryan?

21:49

Has it changed the way you approached buck and scenes with him?

21:52

He says, I don't think it's changed the way I approached

21:54

the scenes. The job of the actor is to try and play

21:56

with the most truthful thing within the moment and

21:59

take into consideration even subconsciously

22:01

the relationship we've built between us as characters.

22:04

I don't know if there's now a conscious decision

22:06

made about particular moments, so it's just playing

22:08

the truth of the moment. And then we see that result on

22:10

screen. I don't think there was a particular moment

22:12

where we realized these characters can mean something to

22:14

us. Maybe at the end of the earthquake episode,

22:17

when buck was the one to drive Eddie to pick up Christopher

22:19

thinking back to that shot of buck, sitting in the car

22:22

and watching Eddie pick Chris up and now knowing a

22:24

Buck's childhood, that's certainly a meaningful moment

22:26

to him to see that parent child relationship in

22:28

a way he never quite had. He agrees

22:30

with you about that moment, being very meaningful

22:32

for their relationship

22:34

That look indicated meaningfulness.

22:38

And again, for everyone to remember,

22:40

that's like the third episode of. Being

22:42

together.

22:43

Yeah.

22:44

One word to describe fans is passionate.

22:47

And I know you've struggled with certain factions of the

22:49

fandom, even leaving social media. How

22:51

have you been coping with that pressure over the years?

22:53

Do you have a support system or speak to any cast

22:55

members? And he said, it's not really.

22:58

And maybe I should, because I get caught up in my own head

23:00

and thoughts about it. I recently stepped away

23:02

from social media. I think it's a very intense

23:04

environment and things can feel heavier or louder

23:06

than they were maybe intended. I felt no

23:08

animosity toward any faction of fans.

23:10

People have every right to make comments or jokes, but

23:13

I have every right to remove myself from that situation.

23:15

If it doesn't make me feel good about myself. So

23:17

it's not a step back forever, but certainly

23:19

for now, the healthiest thing for myself is to put

23:21

my attention on. Honestly,

23:24

I think more actors should take a step

23:26

back from social media more often than

23:29

they do, because it just

23:31

seems like a rough place. Even

23:33

if people like you on it. It's like,

23:36

I don't know, man. It seems tough.

23:39

So good for him. Take a step

23:41

back. That brings us to Ryan

23:43

Guzman. The other half of our

23:45

pair who says less,

23:48

I guess I would be remiss to say that there was like a little bit

23:50

of a Ryan Guzman's skin. The

23:52

last year involving like

23:55

race stuff. And he said

23:57

a thing about like, people should be allowed to say

23:59

the N word with their friends and then everyone

24:01

else in the cast had to review Kim.

24:03

So he's got a lot going on on

24:06

social media.

24:06

Okay, this is news to me

24:09

right now can really blindsided

24:11

me with this. Ryan won it. for me.

24:13

I was going to say he doesn't say as much about

24:15

them, but then I felt like I can't leave out that side

24:17

of what he does say on social media.

24:20

You're Right. It's not super relevant to this conversation,

24:22

but good to.

24:24

Anyway, my one quote from him about

24:26

bugging Eddie is they asked him, people seem

24:28

really excited by bucking Eddie's bromance. Did that surprise

24:30

you? He says, oh yeah, that's the

24:32

ongoing conversation that Oliver and I always end

24:34

up talking to. We'll start sending pictures

24:36

around with people that have tweeted us or Instagram

24:39

us, and be like, have you seen this one yet? And in

24:41

fact, there was one video where they took a bunch of pictures

24:43

of me and my fiance and in the middle of the video,

24:45

they scribbled out my fiance's face and put

24:47

books in. So we were having fun with it. We

24:49

were laughing about it, but I don't think we

24:51

ever thought that it was going to grow to where it is now.

24:53

I think we just thought, okay, these guys are going to get

24:55

along and they're going to become best friends, but

24:58

this whole bromance thing, and the brothers feel

25:00

is all new that we didn't. So

25:03

I feel like that's more traditional, like bromance

25:05

brothers' answer that people usually

25:07

give in these sort of situations, not

25:10

as much of a

25:13

Oliver's reaction, but

25:16

my favorite probably, and I had

25:18

to throw this in is Jennifer Love Hewitt.

25:21

She is on cameo as

25:23

all of the fun actors are these days with their friends.

25:26

Yeah.

25:26

So somebody had

25:29

her make a cameo and I guess may mentioned buddy.

25:31

And in her response, she says,

25:33

I hear that you insist bucket. Eddie will be a couple,

25:36

well, let me just say this. I think so

25:38

too. I'm rooting for it. I think it would

25:40

be amazing. And I'm constantly joking with

25:42

both of them about it. So we've

25:45

got one fan on

25:47

the on the, in the cast, I guess I should say.

25:49

Again, very similar to

25:51

the only person we found really supporting

25:53

it in McDonough was Michelle.

25:56

Michelle.

25:57

I mean, yeah.

25:58

Although Jennifer Love Hewitt does not seem to get

26:01

in fights with people on social media.

26:03

no, I mean, that part's different. but In

26:05

terms of who's most explicitly being

26:07

like, yes, I would love to see it.

26:09

In that situation. She was a love interest for

26:11

one of those guys. So that made it a little bit different,

26:13

unlike Maddie here, but it is

26:15

a little bit easier when you're not one of the guys

26:17

to be like, I love it. They should get together.

26:20

Then when you're one of the actors and you have to be like, I don't

26:22

want to get in trouble. I don't want to tell

26:24

anyone that we're definitely going to get together or that

26:26

we're

26:26

I mean, you can say you love it.

26:28

Anyone can be Oscar,

26:31

Isaac.

26:31

That's true and not true. No one

26:34

else can be Oscar, Isaac. The man is incredible,

26:36

but anyone could try, it

26:38

does take,

26:39

You can aspire.

26:40

and we can all aspire to be Oscar,

26:43

Isaac, and be out there actively

26:45

demanding that the studio let

26:48

you kiss your CoStar. But

26:50

that is where we are with the actors.

26:52

And we normally would segue

26:55

into Tim Manier, but I think we're going to save

26:57

that for the end,

26:59

with the fan creator interaction and all that.

27:02

So we should talk about the literature

27:04

now, funnily enough, the day that we're recording

27:07

this, the 20 21 803

27:09

ship stats have been released.

27:11

Fascinating stuff.

27:12

Yeah. I mean, honestly, go check it out. There

27:15

are wild stories on there and role-playing

27:17

mine. Crafters are going to be the story of the next

27:19

year guys,

27:20

It also seems like the pandemic had

27:22

a real impact on people maybe coming

27:25

back to their fan fiction.

27:27

by their fan fiction, you mean everything Harry Potter

27:29

related then? Yes, because

27:32

there's a resurgence in like almost

27:34

every Harry Potter related ship out there. But

27:36

anyway, this is important for our

27:38

conversation because on the 2020

27:41

list, Hundred top

27:43

ship stats of all time, buddy

27:45

does not appear, but on the 2021

27:48

list, they're now number 90,

27:50

making their first appearance. They

27:52

had a big year. The last year they have about

27:55

8500, 803 stores. And

27:57

they're, you know, moving up in the world or whatever. So

28:01

the most kudos fanfic

28:03

that we both read for this is called a

28:05

leaf falls on loneliness

28:08

by impossible things. What's

28:10

the, what's the flavor. Tell me about the FIC.

28:12

I did read the fix this

28:13

She read it guys.

28:16

So there's that it

28:18

is once again, a slightly longer

28:20

FIC, not, you know, incredibly long,

28:22

but it's over 11,000 words

28:25

and. It's a little angsty,

28:27

I would say it's not quite a fluffy,

28:29

fluffy FIC. It's sort of centered

28:32

on buck it's about him trying

28:34

to deal with all of his trauma.

28:35

He has a lot of trauma. You'll

28:37

be happy to know everyone that

28:39

at the beginning of season four, he started seeing a

28:41

therapist. That's

28:44

good. He's working through it. Hm.

28:46

So yeah, Tim trying to, to manage all of

28:48

his, his trauma and also. Not

28:51

being able to tell Eddie that he loves

28:53

him in a romantic and sexual way.

28:56

And so by the end of the, the

28:59

story he does

29:01

They've both confessed to

29:03

each other, their love, but yeah,

29:05

it's more about like buck has

29:07

a lot of various traumas and also

29:10

feels like. You know, really

29:12

low self-worth and fear of abandonment because

29:15

of his parents. And you didn't watch the episode about his parents,

29:17

but they really get into that. And the book begins episode.

29:19

And so, yeah, he feels like he can't tell anyone

29:22

because he doesn't want to be

29:24

a burden

29:25

Yep.

29:26

and it's fucking him up. So you

29:28

got to talk to people, everybody. But yeah, angsty

29:31

buck centric, they get together all

29:33

is happy in the end. That's our so

29:35

now. Let's get to the

29:37

creator, Tim

29:40

Manier who is our show runner? Who

29:42

also has a lot to say about

29:44

buddy? I will again go

29:46

chronologically because it seems

29:48

like a good way to experience quotes.

29:51

So in early in early

29:54

days, what better

29:56

way to experience quotes is there then chronologically.

29:58

thematically a reverse

30:01

chronologically.

30:03

I can do that if you want. I

30:05

already got it. I'm queued up chronologically. So reverse,

30:08

chronologically would be no problem. But I do

30:10

like to see sort of

30:11

the, evolution. Yeah.

30:12

the evolution of how people talk about these

30:14

things as they, as

30:16

they write the show and as they interact with more fans,

30:19

which he does mention later on in,

30:22

he's talking about in the season two

30:24

moment with the elf, who says that they have

30:26

an. They ask him about

30:28

that. He says, I know a lot of people

30:30

are getting that vibe between BEC and Eddie,

30:33

which is why I put that little joke at the end.

30:35

Basically the winsome elf was speaking for the audience,

30:38

and I'm not saying that the fountain shooting up behind

30:40

them meant anything metaphorically you

30:42

just said.

30:43

Hmm.

30:44

So he starts off in there. Classic showrunner

30:46

way of people are noticing

30:49

this couple that I didn't think of as a couple.

30:51

And maybe I want to like Winky,

30:53

Winky added a

30:54

Let's have some fun with it and we're all having fun

30:56

here. Right?

30:57

Exactly. So that's how people

30:59

dip their, your toes into this sort of conversation

31:02

with one of these ships. And then it could go

31:04

one of you know, a few different ways

31:07

as they continue to interact. Okay. So then,

31:09

already by 2020, a year later,

31:11

the tone has soured a little bit. So

31:15

apparently he's experiencing. Oliver

31:17

stark seems to have a bit

31:19

of hostility on the interwebs

31:22

when you're on Twitter. Some people are going to be

31:24

a little bit aggressive. So he says

31:26

why some people think the hostility would

31:28

make me more inclined to do the thing they want

31:31

is weird, but I also don't want to feel like my

31:33

knee-jerk reaction to their hostility is influencing

31:35

me in the other way either. So I'm done reading

31:37

Twitter or engaging on any level.

31:39

Good call man.

31:41

I always a good call and a fan

31:43

responds. I think a lot of us would like to genuinely

31:45

engage with you on the idea of buddy. I know

31:47

there are people who take it too far, but I don't think

31:50

it's fair to punish the entire fandom for a few

31:52

bad people. And Tim says,

31:54

I appreciate that. I just don't see

31:56

how it's possible. The name calling and hostility

31:58

has been pretty noisy when I find myself responding

32:01

to it. It's time for me to go. I refuse to

32:03

get into a flame war with fans, honestly.

32:07

Pretty healthy. I think this whole interaction, like

32:10

I totally like Tim

32:13

recognizes that having these interactions

32:15

is coloring how he thinks

32:17

about the show and he doesn't want that to happen. So

32:20

like the healthy move is to probably just get

32:22

out of there. I also appreciate that

32:24

this fan is like, not all

32:26

of us are crazy and some of us actually want to have

32:28

a conversation with you. And

32:31

Tim is like, totally get that. But

32:33

also. I can't be on

32:35

this website anymore. I

32:38

get that too, Tim. So yeah,

32:40

clearly like whenever

32:43

you, you dip your toe into this sort of conversation,

32:45

there's going to be visceral

32:48

reactions from the fans. And

32:51

you can handle that in a couple of ways. And I know we've seen

32:53

many show runners in the past who

32:55

have met with like conflict

32:58

with fans and it. Soured

33:01

them on the entire concept

33:03

of whatever the fans are asking

33:05

for. And so I think it's interesting

33:08

to see Tim be like, I don't want to be swayed

33:10

by this, so I should just leave. Like

33:14

I think that's probably a good move. So

33:16

then that's 2020.

33:18

Now we find ourselves 20, 21 after

33:21

the most recent season. So what

33:24

does he have to say for himself about where we are

33:26

with the relationship right now? He gets out. It's

33:29

no secret that buck and Eddie's relationship

33:31

has become a cornerstone of the entire nine 11

33:33

franchise. And a lot of people have fallen

33:35

in love with the idea of them together. All

33:38

of our has even said that he doesn't think buck could survive

33:40

without his relationship to Eddie and Christopher. And

33:42

we certainly saw evidence of that in the finale. And

33:44

it's unlike any relationship that I've ever seen on television.

33:47

Has there been an evolving dialogue in the writers

33:49

room to define the kind of love that is clearly

33:51

there? Tim says, yeah,

33:54

it's come up specifically and continue. I

33:57

always get bagged on by the fans for stuff like

33:59

this, but all the conversations that the fans

34:01

have are conversations that happen in the record. It's

34:04

interesting because we had Eddie's character in season

34:06

two and from basically the moment buck laid

34:08

eyes on him. And it's mostly in the way that we

34:10

introduced him with a particular song and putting

34:12

his clothes on in slow motion that

34:14

may have started it from jump street. But

34:16

you can't plan when actors have chemistry

34:18

together. And I think Ryan and Oliver have a ton

34:20

of chemistry. Now how you want

34:23

to define that chemistry, I think is its own kind

34:25

of evolving thing, which is why I don't

34:27

want to define it because the show's not over. So

34:29

I'm not even really sure how to answer that question.

34:31

I know that there's a contingent of fans that would like

34:34

a certain outcome and the relationship has a life

34:36

of its own and fandom in that respect. But

34:38

I do think that look at the very least,

34:40

these are two guys who have a deep spiritual bond

34:42

with each other. And by the way, I had seen

34:44

it on television before I've seen it in Vandenberg. Love

34:47

band of brothers, it's that kind

34:49

of out there on the front lines, hen

34:52

and chimney habit as well. So if there's more

34:54

than just that kind of chemistry between buck and

34:56

Eddie and a lot of people see that I'm not going

34:58

to deny what they're seeing, but I know that's not

35:00

a satisfying answer to your question. Well,

35:03

let me ask you this, that because of the

35:05

way that the show has been written and the fact that there have

35:07

been so many nods to bucket Eddie's dynamic,

35:09

the show has been accused of, and I don't use this

35:11

word lightly queer baiting. Tim

35:14

says, yeah, I'm aware of that. What

35:16

do you have to say to the viewers of the show who feel that

35:18

way and who feel like they're being strung along by the

35:20

way? I'm actually not sure

35:22

how to respond to that, to be honest with you, the

35:24

show's not deliberately queer baiting the audience,

35:26

but what I also don't want to do is not

35:28

keep writing these characters the way I see them and

35:31

whatever it is they're taking out of the portrayals of

35:33

these characters is being generated somehow on

35:35

the page and the way that the scenes are being performed.

35:38

Like I said before, it's almost got

35:40

a little bit of a life of its own, and I don't want to strangle

35:42

that because I think there's something that's kind of alive

35:44

about it. And in a way I

35:46

don't apologize for it either. So,

35:49

okay. Lot to unpack here. It's interesting

35:51

to see a show runner talk in such specific

35:54

terms about like queer baiting as

35:56

they're writing the show and about what was on in the writers

35:58

room and like all of this. So initially

36:00

yeah.

36:01

So I think my reaction in general

36:03

to Tim's responses is,

36:06

you know, we've talked before about the

36:09

difficulty of the

36:11

fact that you're making a commercial product, right?

36:13

So you, you need to keep the fans happy

36:15

and there is certainly an incentive to

36:18

do what the fans want you to do.

36:20

But I also do think Right. similar to

36:23

the fact that he's stepped away from Twitter and social

36:25

media. As a creator,

36:28

you should tell the story you want to tell. And

36:30

that's what you put out into the world. And

36:32

people can react to it as

36:34

they react to it. And I appreciate the,

36:36

his perspective that he doesn't want to be swayed

36:39

either way. He doesn't want. To

36:41

be pushed into something by the fans of

36:43

that. Wasn't his intention, the storytelling, but he also doesn't

36:45

want us to know, do something just

36:48

to spite people. So overall,

36:50

you know, I'm I'm appreciating his perspective.

36:53

And if that is the approach he's

36:55

taking, he's not doing

36:57

something specifically to please

36:59

or displease or attract or.

37:02

Reject fans. He's just

37:05

writing the story. He wants to write

37:07

in the way that Ian, his writers

37:09

room have and are continuing to

37:11

write it. So if that's the

37:14

case, then he's not queer baiting

37:16

the audience. If we go

37:18

back to that definition of like the purpose

37:20

of queer baiting is to attract a certain audience.

37:23

And keep that audience without following up

37:25

on it. So I can see his perspective

37:28

that that's not what they're doing.

37:30

If they are writing the story,

37:32

they always intended to

37:34

write the way they do. To

37:36

write it. And while there is, you know,

37:38

the early quote of him putting that bit in with the

37:41

elf, it, it's not like he's saying

37:43

like, and then I continued to put these little jokes,

37:46

you know, in the show throughout that

37:48

obviously was very early on in the relationship

37:50

with the fans and what this was.

37:53

And I've, I don't know enough

37:55

about his work to know if this would be like his first

37:57

experience writing a popular show, right?

37:59

Like this.

38:00

No, he's run other Ryan

38:03

Murphy shows. So he's been a showrunner

38:05

on a lot of big shows before, and I'm sure

38:07

has a lot of experience interacting with fans of those.

38:10

Gotcha.

38:11

So, yeah, there's some, there's a lot going on

38:13

here. It's very interesting. I think

38:15

we've had a con like conversations many times

38:17

before about. In an ideal

38:19

world, what is a showrunner to do?

38:21

How is a showrunner supposed to act in

38:24

these situations and what exactly are they supposed

38:26

to do? And it feels like, you know,

38:28

in a world where you're just creating some art,

38:30

obviously the thing to do is just like write the show.

38:33

And like, don't let anyone sway you in any direction,

38:36

write exactly what you want to. Right. And, and the

38:38

fact of it being a commercial product definitely

38:40

changes things. But even

38:43

within that framework, if, again, we're,

38:45

if we just take him at his word, who

38:47

knows if all of this is bullshit, but like, if he's

38:49

doing what he says, he's doing here, he's

38:52

trying to adhere to that as much as possible,

38:54

even in a world where he's creating something he's selling

38:56

and he needs people to watch it. Like you

38:58

still want to be writing the show. The

39:01

way you think it should be written,

39:04

not without input from other

39:06

people and you're writing it. Like these are the characters.

39:08

I think this is what the characters would do in these situations.

39:11

And I don't want to be changing that

39:13

for some bullshit reason that is

39:15

different than like, you

39:17

know, the art or whatever. So

39:20

it's interesting that yeah,

39:22

he says I don't want to be swayed either way by

39:25

what fans are saying to me. And

39:27

they're asking him, are you queer baiting? And he's. I

39:29

don't want to not write the relationship

39:32

being the way it is like this, you know, the intimate

39:34

beats of their relationship, because

39:36

then people will accuse me of queer baiting because it's

39:38

like, this is how exactly how I

39:40

think the relationship should be. And also

39:42

there's this outstanding issue of it's

39:45

not over. Like, we have no idea.

39:48

If this will never be paid off in

39:50

any way, or like, you know,

39:52

if they're going to get closer and closer and closer,

39:54

and then the last episode, they're each going to get new

39:57

wives or something like, I

40:00

don't know what will become of it. And

40:02

so it's hard to refute

40:04

anything that he's saying. Like, if in

40:07

his mind they're just writing the story as

40:09

it's supposed to be written. I also

40:11

think it's interesting to hear him say. In

40:14

the writer's room, all of the conversations

40:16

you're having are the conversations we're having,

40:18

because I feel like a lot

40:20

of times people are having this fandom

40:22

conversation about characters and then are

40:24

met with show runners, being like, I

40:27

don't even know where you're getting that. Like where

40:29

do you, what do you guys even seeing when

40:31

you're talking about these characters and

40:33

Tim saying the opposite of that? He's saying like, we

40:35

see. W w we see

40:38

that they have a special, intimate relationship

40:40

that is different than most people's relationships.

40:42

And we're still figuring out where

40:45

that's going to go and you guys

40:47

are making your own guesses, and we're making

40:49

our own guesses too. And

40:52

we're all going to see what happens, which

40:54

feels in my mind, pretty like healthy,

40:57

I guess there can be

40:59

such a thing, but yeah,

41:02

also him saying. I don't

41:04

want to define the nature of their relationship because the

41:06

show's not over. Yeah. The

41:08

show's not over. What, what is he

41:10

expected to say in this, in

41:13

response to this question? That would be more

41:15

satisfying, I guess, other than like

41:18

fans probably want him to say they're going

41:20

to get married.

41:22

Well, I guess, you know, arguably

41:24

if he knows that they are not

41:26

going in a direction, he could just

41:29

say they're not queer characters.

41:31

But I mean, again, unless

41:33

he is lying to us, that's very much

41:35

not what he's saying. He's not

41:38

saying they're not queer characters.

41:40

that's yeah. That's why it makes it

41:42

a little bit difficult, right. To have this conversation

41:44

in process. We don't

41:46

know, like you said, they're currently both in

41:49

relationships with women. And so we don't know

41:52

if next season will be the last season

41:54

of the show and they'll just go off on these, like,

41:56

you know, totally hetero

41:58

directions and it will leave

42:00

open the question of, well, when did they

42:02

make this decision that they were definitely not going

42:05

to be queer characters? Like,

42:07

does he know now? Does he know halfway

42:09

through next season? Is he going to make

42:11

an announcement?

42:13

Yeah. It's like, can we get an assurance

42:15

from you, Tim? That the second you decide, you'll

42:17

let us know.

42:18

Right? Which I mean like

42:20

that, that's the heart of the queer baiting

42:23

question of like, is it really

42:25

still up in the air? There's probably

42:28

again, unless they make an announcement, no

42:30

way that we'll ever know when

42:32

in process they made this decision,

42:34

but it's really hard to say until the show

42:36

ends a what everything looks like because

42:39

of the show ends with them together, then it

42:41

certainly wasn't queer baiting.

42:42

Exactly or it

42:44

doesn't even have to end with them together, but like if at

42:46

some point. Get together

42:49

or, you know, whatever, like one

42:51

of them announces their feelings for the other one

42:53

or something. Like, there are a lot of ways that this could,

42:55

Many permutations of things that could happen.

42:58

But yeah, I don't, I mean, we D we don't, we

43:00

don't know,

43:02

don't know, which is such an interesting

43:04

place to be

43:05

but the implication of this is

43:08

it's still a possibility, right. That they

43:10

could be.

43:11

Yeah, very much. That's the implication.

43:13

Obviously we haven't done an episode about a show that's still

43:15

in the air. I have followed

43:17

many a show that like, as it

43:19

was still on the air and doing a

43:21

toll queer rating thing. And for most

43:23

of them sure. They

43:25

don't say anything about what's going

43:27

to happen with weird meeting. It's like, you know,

43:29

it's not going to get consummated.

43:32

Like if you're watching Hawaii, Five-O

43:34

on CBS as it's happening. Like you

43:37

have to be. I

43:39

mean, if you're like, self-aware, they're

43:41

probably not going to get together. It's fucking CVS.

43:44

Like, so I

43:46

think what's interesting to me about this

43:48

conversation and yes, obviously there

43:50

are no answers when a show is in progress

43:53

is I truly feel like

43:56

I don't know the

43:58

answer. I don't know what's going to happen at

44:00

the end in a way that it is interesting.

44:03

Right, I mean, so a lot

44:05

of the beats are similar to McDonogh, but in some ways,

44:08

this example is also, I think, similar

44:10

to teen Wolf in that anyone could have

44:12

been Gand like there was no like it CVS,

44:14

right, Like there,

44:15

Right, right, right. Yeah. It was MTV. Their

44:17

show was full of queer characters,

44:20

kind of, they had their own issues, but that

44:23

was, you know, a gay creator.

44:25

They wanted a world with no homophobia

44:27

and.

44:28

And that one still didn't turn out. And you saw this

44:30

kind of a similar progression right? Of the,

44:32

of the show runner from like playful

44:35

to like you guys are all bananas

44:38

Well, yeah, I would say that's a different

44:40

progression though, because that's not at all

44:42

where Tim has ended up. So like,

44:45

no, I think it got much more contentious in teen

44:47

Wolf. And to be fair, teen Wolf did

44:49

a lot more queer baiting with, you

44:51

know, the way that MTV was

44:52

like textbook, queer, baiting.

44:55

but you know, Tim left Twitter and

44:57

stopped engaging with fans. So it's not

44:59

like we're still in a super positive

45:01

space. It's just a lot less

45:04

acrimony.

45:04

Yes. And no, the way

45:06

that like the interaction with fans space you're right.

45:09

It doesn't seem to event it in

45:11

a happy place. I think he is back on Twitter though.

45:14

I don't know if he's still like what his level

45:16

of engagement with fans is, but

45:18

I would say that like the way that he talks

45:20

about the show. Is

45:23

not negative in any way. I

45:25

did feel like in teen Wolf, they were

45:27

all trying by the end to be like,

45:30

stop shipping it, even though they

45:33

were encouraging people to vote for them

45:35

yeah, well, I think it, it did become more

45:37

acrimonious in this state. Like maybe Tim stepped back

45:39

sooner in the process and then, so

45:42

it wasn't quite as negative and experience.

45:45

And we also, right. Don't know, along

45:47

the process of teen Wolf, when they decided

45:49

it just wasn't going to happen. So they may have known

45:51

like this isn't going to happen. So

45:54

it's not useful for the fans to continue to ship

45:56

it and ask for it because it's not going to happen.

45:59

Whereas we're still in this space with this show where they're not

46:01

saying it's not going to happen. It's

46:03

completely up in the air. But

46:05

I think, yeah, there's some parallels to be

46:07

drawn with that

46:08

Certainly they started similar places.

46:10

So I think when we see how this

46:13

all ends up, it might be interesting just

46:15

to look back and think like, where

46:17

did these paths diverged, or how

46:19

did they come back together

46:22

Okay.

46:22

in case things get much rougher

46:25

in the nine 11 space, but

46:27

yeah. I think

46:30

it's just like a different tone

46:32

and a different content to his

46:35

response than I'm used to seeing show runners

46:37

use when asked these types of

46:39

questions. So that's interesting. And

46:42

honestly, I'm just here for the mystery of it. I

46:44

like the open question. I want to know

46:46

what's going to happen.

46:47

So do you want to play, do you want to, you want to place

46:49

a bet on the on.

46:51

maybe that is what we do maybe instead

46:53

of, is it queer rating question? We place

46:55

a bet

46:56

sure.

46:58

on the

46:58

I mean, I'm more interested in your perspective

47:00

because you actually watch the show and, you know, are

47:02

more, I think, more invested in it, but

47:05

yeah, we can, we can get you on the record for

47:07

how you think this is going to turn out and

47:09

then, you know, revisit whenever the show ends.

47:12

There's just so many variable.

47:15

many variables, there's the, what does the writers'

47:17

room want to do? Question, which is its

47:19

own thing. And we have no

47:21

idea we can't get in their minds, but Tim at least

47:24

seems like open to it. But

47:26

then there's the, like what

47:28

a Fox cancels the show question

47:31

Sure.

47:31

then what happens? Like if they haven't done

47:33

it by the end of, I mean, the show seems

47:35

to be doing well and I don't feel like it's in danger

47:37

of cancellation.

47:39

And they're definitely renewed for season five,

47:42

right?

47:44

So we will see a season five, but

47:46

again, like if the ratings tank

47:48

and they don't get a season six, even

47:50

if they had planned on maybe doing something

47:52

in season six, you would never know. So

47:54

it's like, there's so much stacked against

47:56

it that

47:59

I feel like the odds are still low,

48:02

but higher than other shows. Here's what I'm going to

48:04

say. I'm going to say, and this is not

48:06

necessarily them like ending up together

48:08

and game situation,

48:10

but like, The

48:13

odds that something canonically

48:15

queer will happen between the two of

48:17

them. That's what I'm going to say are

48:21

30%. That's my guess.

48:23

No. Wait, how

48:26

do we judge that

48:27

Well, we can't,

48:28

now? I want you to say I'm putting my money

48:30

on something canonically queer will happen

48:32

I guess if I say the odds are 30%,

48:34

then I'm putting my money on something canonically queer will

48:37

not happen. But I, I

48:39

hope to be wrong.

48:41

Sure.

48:42

I hope to be wrong, but I honestly

48:44

feel like 30% is like way higher than

48:46

anything else.

48:47

it's a yes or no question.

48:49

Well, I mean your question, I'm having

48:51

my own conversation about here

48:52

I don't know how we like gauge percentages,

48:55

like, oh, you're right.

48:56

no, way you were right. That it was 30%.

48:59

Yeah.

49:00

Wouldn't that be cool? We could look back in that way.

49:02

I, yeah, I mean, I, I, my instinct

49:04

is still that nothing will happen because. My

49:07

instinct in all of these situations,

49:09

you think Tim and air's being

49:12

truthful that they have not made a decision

49:14

though at this

49:15

I'd like to take him at his word. He

49:17

seems, you know, pretty forthcoming

49:20

in that quote. So I'm happy

49:22

to believe him. Like I, even

49:24

though I still think it's not going to happen more

49:27

than in any other conversation that we've had. I think it could.

49:29

And that is, there's like, I,

49:32

that makes me.

49:33

Really more than the Hannibal or the leverage

49:36

Oh, no, no. Well, I mean, Hannibal it,

49:38

the, those things are candidates. I don't

49:40

know, again, to what extent,

49:42

if there's a new season of Hannibal, if the two

49:45

of them are going to make out or whatever, I have no idea, but

49:47

like in those worlds, the showrunners

49:49

have said, they're

49:51

in love. It's in the fucking show that

49:53

the Hannibal is in love with will

49:56

and, you know,

49:57

Well, again, these are the conversations we're having about

49:59

like what actually has to be on

50:01

the screen, you know, And what

50:03

can just be what the creator say obviously.

50:05

Yeah. You're right, right In Hannibal.

50:08

In Hannibal. He asks if,

50:10

if Hannibal's in love with him and she says yes,

50:12

like that it's on

50:13

That's true. Yeah, that's true. But there's

50:16

not established that will.

50:18

correct, though. He does really

50:20

love murdering that guy at the end.

50:22

I mean, it's very romantic at the end.

50:24

He says

50:24

I'm not taking, not taking away from

50:26

that. And that they both dive into the water together

50:29

in an embrace. I'm not stepping away from that.

50:31

No, but you're right. He has not said in the

50:33

show that he is also in love with Hannibal, but

50:35

it could be unrequited, but still canonically

50:38

queer. Hannibal is in love with, well,

50:40

Sure. Okay. You're betting.

50:42

No, but you're saying more likely than some

50:44

of our other exams.

50:46

yeah. That's it's a sad place. We are

50:48

in the world, but that's where we are.

50:50

Okay.

50:51

I feel like it's more likely,

50:53

We'll check back in whenever 9

50:55

1 1 goes off the air.

50:57

maybe it will run for 10 seasons soon out whenever

51:00

it ends. We'll check back in. All

51:03

right. Well, I guess we can't really do, like, why

51:06

isn't it Canon? It's not Kim cause

51:09

show's not over. So.

51:12

We'll see, do you feel, do you have a

51:14

feeling about queer baiting? Should we be

51:16

ranking it on a scale?

51:18

Do we want to gender as well as the characters

51:20

yeah. I definitely want to gender swap the characters

51:23

again, always the debate. Who

51:25

are we? Gender swapping. How do we

51:27

feel about like, if Eddie

51:29

is a single mom and then buck

51:31

is like all up in their

51:34

family.

51:36

I mean, I feel like it's tangibly

51:38

less interesting than the other way around.

51:41

still single dad, and

51:43

then we have a woman, but I still, I mean,

51:46

honestly either way is less interesting

51:48

than the dynamic that it currently is because

51:50

it's like, if it's a single

51:53

dad and then he's like, you know, struggling

51:55

to be a single dad and then a woman comes in

51:57

and is like, I'm a nurturer, I'll

51:59

help you with your child. And you're like, okay.

52:03

But I guess that's not the question. The question is, would they

52:05

be.

52:06

That is the question.

52:08

I mean, it's a really close relationship for a man and

52:10

a woman to have on TV and have it not be romantic.

52:13

Yeah, it would be interesting for Eddie

52:15

to be a woman and then she just had it. Platonic

52:18

male friend, come in to take care

52:20

of her child. That's

52:22

That could be cute, actually.

52:24

an unusual dynamic, but

52:26

Yeah, it would be unusual

52:28

on,

52:29

it was. Yeah.

52:33

I think that is one word

52:34

So I think they, they would be together. I think

52:36

it's a, you know, it's like we talked about last

52:38

week with the partners dynamic. It's

52:40

a similar situation really, because

52:43

the only woman on the squad

52:45

is hen and she's a lesbian and they don't

52:47

have any straight

52:49

female lady dynamic.

52:51

Yeah, you're right. There's no like test case

52:53

on the show of what it's like for a straight

52:55

woman to be a friend with somebody

52:58

on the squad. All right. So yeah,

53:00

gender swap test. They'd

53:02

rather.

53:03

would probably be, Yeah, maybe

53:04

Yeah, male, female friends are not often out

53:06

here helping each other, raise

53:08

their kids for happen.

53:11

it could. I'm not saying it can't

53:13

but on TV, not, not very frequently.

53:16

I struggled to think of an example on TV.

53:19

Yeah. All right. Well that's

53:21

901. There's not

53:23

a lot of conclusion to this episode because the conclusion

53:25

is. Stay

53:27

have to see.

53:29

Let's see what will happen. I

53:32

do want to read fan fiction more. I mean, I

53:34

don't feel like a ship that you don't care about at

53:36

all. It probably didn't do much for you.

53:38

no. Yeah. I

53:40

mean, the fiction was fine.

53:43

Yeah,

53:44

fine. Everything's fine.

53:48

what are we doing next week? This

53:50

is a special case.

53:52

We're doing our first listener requested

53:54

episode Gotham.

53:56

might've forgotten. She requested at this point. Cause it was so

53:59

long ago,

53:59

It was a while ago that this request

54:01

was made, but

54:03

we will be talking about

54:05

ed Nygma and Oswald Cabo pot,

54:07

who are the Riddler and the penguin

54:09

on Gotham. Their

54:11

ship name is Meg marble pot.

54:14

Delightful. Now neither

54:16

of us had watched any Gotham

54:18

prior to receiving the suggestion.

54:22

Apparently like the, the core of the

54:24

relationship happens in season three.

54:26

You've watched it. I still have too, but we'll

54:29

get into it.

54:30

I'll discuss this when we get into it, but I started

54:32

watching it and I couldn't stop. So

54:34

Yeah. It teen Wolf, do you.

54:35

yeah, teen Wolf to me, but we will get

54:38

into that more next time.

54:40

Not next week. I'm training myself.

54:43

In the meantime, if you have thoughts about

54:45

nine 11, I would like to hear your point. If

54:48

you have them. I know I was hesitant to give an

54:50

actual prediction, but like let

54:52

us know yours. If you have comments, questions,

54:54

concerns, et cetera. Reach out

54:56

to [email protected].

55:00

Find us on Twitter and tumbler at LTV

55:02

K-pop. And if you're enjoying

55:04

the podcast, tell Fred new

55:07

episodes, the pod come out every other Friday

55:09

at six o'clock Eastern, wherever

55:11

you get your podcast.