0:03

What do Bianca Casta Fiore and Rihanna

0:05

have in common? What about

0:07

the Andes Mountains and the Chateau de Versailles? Here's

0:10

a hint. They've been around since the

0:12

dawn of time. They might be quaint or

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ostentatious. Yes, we're

0:17

talking about jewels. Discover

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Voice of Jewels, a podcast from Le

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Corps, School of Jewelry Arts, supported by

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Van Cleef and our Pills. Welcome

0:32

to Life and Art from FT Weekend. I'm

0:34

Lila Raptopoulos, and this is our Friday chat

0:36

show. Today we are

0:38

talking about High and Low, a new

0:40

documentary about the fashion designer John Galliano,

0:43

directed by Kevin McDonald. John

0:45

Galliano has been a hugely influential figure in

0:47

the fashion industry. He was most famously creative

0:49

director of the House of Dior from 1996

0:52

all the way until And

0:56

he was considered a sort of enfant

0:58

to read. He was known for huge

1:00

whimsical collections and sort of changing fashion.

1:04

That said, in 2011, Galliano was

1:06

fired from Dior after videos emerged

1:08

of him slurring his words and

1:10

making anti-Semitic and racist rants. But

1:13

what was interesting was his cancellation did

1:15

not last long. Only a

1:18

couple years later, in 2014, he became

1:20

creative director of Margiela, and he's still

1:22

there today. I started to say other

1:24

things about people. I just

1:26

thought, boy, that guy's unhappy. John

1:31

Galliano is out of Christian Dior. There are

1:34

people here who are absolutely disgusted by him. Can

1:36

you tell me how you think you ended up in that place?

1:40

Yeah, I'm going to tell you everything. So

1:43

in this episode, we will talk about Galliano's

1:45

career and our thoughts on the film and

1:47

also what happens to famous people after they

1:50

do bad things. I'm

1:52

Lila, and I'm creatively exciting

1:54

and financially unstable. Joining

1:56

me from London is the FT's junior

1:58

fashion editor, Anakiyara Bia. In D C

2:00

is fabulous and about to discover her

2:03

want in past her and Akira Welcome

2:05

i think you and also in London

2:07

at we have the assistant editor of

2:10

a luxury lifestyle magazine H T S

2:12

I and we're not sure why he

2:14

needs a security guard walking down the

2:16

runway and you'll. Find a half. A

2:19

wonderful losing was. A

2:21

living welcome. Thank you Must assume.

2:24

Say see will feel I'm really excited to have you both

2:26

on the cell! Okay,

2:29

so what do we start with? System been a

2:31

big picture. What did you go? Think of

2:33

the film. Ah Lily, What'd you think that you

2:35

enjoy watching. It. I think enjoy his

2:37

house the wrong word. I found

2:39

it entertaining and intriguing, but ultimately

2:42

Enjoyment Club alludes to because of

2:44

the way the film goes or

2:46

there's a kind of redemptive org

2:48

but it and really likes and

2:50

a study muted Sasson his career

2:53

been very brightly associates real fireworks

2:55

of the Galley on a side.

2:58

Then they can extinguish because of the scandal

3:00

and the way I see a huge them

3:02

comes back as a clan is sizzling max.

3:07

Ask me if that's an analyst. Says

3:09

the have enjoyed it. very analysis Iraq

3:11

and at the end you think it's

3:13

not sort of like wow Ah. What

3:16

an incredible man who went through this set of

3:18

like third time and came back and this nice

3:20

layer. Set of like. Yeah,

3:22

exactly A Maybe that's when I

3:24

realized, but hill. Yeah I yeah.

3:26

Anna, Carolyn, it's you think? And

3:29

yeah, seek to me was definitely really

3:31

interesting and I would recommend people to

3:33

offset people who are into fashion. both

3:35

of people who are not into fashion

3:37

a member Don't know much about Galliano.

3:40

They know a couple of things. I

3:42

think it gives you a really good

3:44

idea of what happened and who this

3:46

person is an it's a good what's

3:49

I think. Yeah, yeah, me too. I

3:51

felt. I mean, I knew less. probably.

3:53

About him going and. Then and you posted. But

3:55

I felt that it introduced me to this person

3:57

I knew vaguely and made me think a lot

3:59

of. It had the same brain

4:01

can do like incredible good and

4:04

also terribly bad. And.

4:06

Reconciling. I'm

4:16

super uber. Felt like to the

4:19

movies are pictured Gallianos, Influence.

4:22

I'm so. I think the film

4:24

does partially a good job of

4:26

describing not because there's a lot

4:28

of our ties so tense and

4:30

I think the images alone gave

4:33

you an idea of how much

4:35

he's creations and his designs were.

4:38

So. Different and from while everybody

4:40

else is doing so. three article

4:42

and like the construction of the

4:44

pieces, the construction of the shows

4:47

an all the drama that he

4:49

brought on the catwalk and and

4:51

obviously he then brought this kind

4:53

of rebels is hyper dramatic attitude

4:56

to the Or and to even

4:58

she before the Or and revolutionized

5:00

how these very classic all this

5:02

stayed fashion houses were working amber

5:05

all of new energy to them.

5:07

yeah I. You know, my favorite parts of

5:09

the cel mai think were when he was talking about.

5:12

The. Craft like. There is this moment where.

5:14

He. Had a piece of fabric any pulled on

5:16

the grain and it says in one way and

5:19

it is had no gears and he like turned

5:21

it sideways so is on the diagonal or in

5:23

on their. That. He thought on the

5:25

cross and then pulled it again and it

5:27

had dislike. Beautiful movement and he said like

5:29

see what I did their ah I liked

5:31

seeing their creative process. I'm curious Louis what

5:33

you saw it and also like if you

5:36

can just set the scene a little there

5:38

for people at what was. Different.

5:40

About his work well as I

5:42

myself, subs, associate or cold. That

5:44

also. Really cross pollinate as

5:46

I think misread various cultures I think

5:48

in a way which now is viewed

5:50

as. We. Can be terms:

5:53

cultural appropriation, basics, Aids. but

5:55

as a Klingon before mishmash

5:57

of historical references, I'm just.

6:00

And when he was still a student

6:02

kind of risk and french revolutionary styles

6:04

and after that he was system a

6:07

kind of like historical wrote coaster on

6:09

the time do that was kind of

6:11

quite sitting and fun to watch in

6:14

very different a soda deaths at least

6:16

of kind of visual knowledge which is

6:18

incredibly impressive and you know much as

6:20

people as he really is from archetype

6:23

all designer was someone on the street

6:25

barber like how does that apply to

6:27

what I'm wearing That there were none.

6:30

Undeniable. Slowed subtle effects and also he

6:32

made you dream, he assassin main upset

6:34

a d about what you I'd be

6:36

day a bit of also about how.

6:38

Imagine yourself how you want to be

6:40

and he more than fulfilled that breeze

6:43

and the so here is on a

6:45

cow the says really does. Explain.

6:48

That and he himself became his own

6:50

nice. Wild and ludicrous

6:52

creation see to say thousand leading

6:54

air as we are towards that

6:57

down So. Why

7:04

we did into the controversy around

7:06

Han and John Galliano is only

7:08

said it's. Provocative. And

7:10

different as you both said, But

7:13

he also. As he

7:15

got more successful see

7:17

relied more on alcohol

7:20

and prescription drugs. I

7:22

see that Clinton mean.

7:24

An end then set of at

7:27

his lowest three instances emerged as

7:29

him slurring his words that at

7:32

present bar. And hauling verbal abuse

7:34

at strangers and calling them anti

7:36

semitic and and days names and

7:39

telling them ugly and saying things

7:41

like i Love Hitler and. Die.

7:43

He was clearly sired and he went

7:45

to court and he went to rehab

7:47

and. And I'm curious.

7:49

like there that would. the a lot of

7:51

the film was centered around that and I'm

7:53

curious what the some kind of made you

7:56

feel about him. What do you think they

7:58

handle back pain? Well. The.

8:00

I think I like the it

8:02

was quite straightforward said this films

8:05

open with. You. Can

8:07

listen to what he says to the recording

8:09

so. It's quite stressful

8:11

very goes right into it

8:13

and then it kind of

8:15

depicts the are cause. Of.

8:17

Got the on and industry so

8:20

like his. his background is a

8:22

nice background and how you know

8:24

his relationship with this father who

8:26

was sometimes violent with them and

8:29

then his success in the fashion

8:31

industry and the other working and

8:33

the in on the loss of

8:35

a personal friend and collaborator and

8:37

then the addictions and burn out.

8:40

All of that brings. To.

8:42

This result which is him losing control.

8:44

Basically, this is how it's presented in

8:46

the film losing Control and saying things

8:48

that. He says he doesn't

8:50

mean so it's it's a very clear

8:53

to me was presented very clearly

8:55

like this is what happened in this

8:57

is why why I was left

8:59

with was a bit of a question

9:01

of. Is. The

9:03

old there is. so is it.

9:06

Just someone who had a lot

9:08

of struggles and then head of

9:10

the city problem of addictions and

9:12

then it doesn't industry who doesn't

9:14

care about. Mental. Health and

9:16

we know that that's a problem and industry without

9:19

the design as a smile spot. In.

9:21

His these older is then so

9:23

is it just someone who. Fell.

9:26

Victim of this and then had I

9:28

not bus that was extremely similar for

9:30

three times i think the artist clear

9:32

but then. His lox som

9:35

en sus yeah of. Yeah. Yeah,

9:37

very satisfying I would say or oh

9:39

and don't know since then again, satisfaction

9:41

is may be. And. and kevin

9:44

macdonald servants a sauna not give us

9:46

cheap satisfaction i think the whole point

9:48

of the soul and away as britain's

9:50

leading up to the out bus on

9:52

the fall out of it i think

9:55

he the dutch does a good job

9:57

of adjusting and quite even handedly i'm

10:00

And there's no doubt that

10:02

the case slowly builds up. I

10:05

guess a case for explaining how he gets

10:07

such an awful point. The

10:11

thing that really interests me about the whole film

10:13

is, you know, what you forgive

10:15

and why. It's

10:18

funny, I mean, these slurs we're talking about and

10:20

being euphemistic about, when I was thinking about what

10:22

he says before coming here,

10:24

I was thinking, they're awful, they're unsigivable. And I

10:27

thought, well, they have to be forgivable. I

10:29

think for my personal politics, I've always thought he has

10:32

to forgive. But it's as though

10:34

he kind of crossed a Rubicon. And

10:37

then you kind of think, why do I forgive someone?

10:41

I have to say watching this film was interesting for me because

10:43

I'd kind of moved on from it. And

10:45

like many other people felt, I knew about the

10:47

scandal, but kind of moved

10:49

on. And this reminds me to

10:51

think, well, why? What bothered

10:53

you or didn't bother you? I wasn't up and

10:56

arms when he was appointed at Marjela a full

10:58

10 years ago, only three years after it. I

11:01

think it points to your own ambivalence

11:03

or complicity in the whole thing. Yeah,

11:06

yeah. I think what it did pretty

11:08

well is it left me asking

11:12

like a lot of questions and it

11:14

was like very, you know, cancel culture

11:16

is very black and white. And I

11:18

think we're a couple of years past

11:20

the sort of like the biggest years

11:22

of hard and fast cancellations. And now

11:24

we're in sort of like a more nuanced place.

11:27

And I feel like after this movie, I felt like, OK,

11:30

well, a lot of things are true at the

11:32

same time. You know, like none

11:34

of us are just good or just bad. I think

11:37

this guy was both honestly sorry

11:39

and also sort of incapable of

11:41

a certain level of introspection. You

11:45

know, his remorse seemed real,

11:47

but also unsatisfying. And I don't

11:50

know, it was both. And the film sort of

11:52

asked you to weigh all the sides. And

11:55

yeah, I thought that was a useful exercise. Yeah,

11:57

I think so, too. Anakira.

12:00

What about you? Say. I do

12:02

think that the Human tree takes

12:04

quite a balanced view of Galliano.

12:06

The I do think that something

12:08

that I found a bit problematic

12:10

that was the site that Galleon

12:12

is presented as a genius which

12:15

he might have been in his

12:17

field, but these fact that he's

12:19

a genius is kind of presented

12:21

as a justification of this person

12:23

is a genius. He does such

12:26

amazing creative things that maybe we

12:28

should forgive them Said that he

12:30

can continue create. All of this

12:32

beautiful amazing things which I think is

12:34

problematic because if you believe that you

12:37

have to give people a second chance,

12:39

then it should be. Given

12:41

to everyone and not just because some

12:43

buddies and unions that you should and

12:46

gives them a pass just because they

12:48

haven't specific talent in. You

12:50

know I I did. It's fine. The

12:53

ideas? genius, interesting tale and actually I

12:55

felt like the question. At

12:57

the movie less me with that was

12:59

most uncomfortable is that. Conflicts.

13:02

That. This is the same brain, like

13:04

the same plane as presumably a

13:06

genius in one way, for really

13:08

has a lack of depth and

13:10

complexity in other ways and it

13:12

can be very disappointing, but. That's.

13:15

The guy you have. Like. One comes

13:17

with the other. And. That are

13:19

here as can't the everything to us

13:21

and it really left me wondering like

13:23

should we be considering him and I

13:25

can are a be considering anyone and

13:27

I can. reminds. Us through

13:30

in a system which still elevates unless

13:32

it's geniuses or Godzilla against and a

13:34

secular age. we don't would have many

13:36

gods but we have celebrities, designers, sportsman

13:38

and them. We are city pump the

13:40

mob and in this system you can

13:43

see this. He really is kind of

13:45

like Cuddles Up Sixty, smash our soul

13:47

to begin with and persevere ads and

13:49

you get we get in the film.

13:51

He both seems to blame a lot

13:53

of his for now on doing lots

13:55

of collections which is true. I think

13:58

he does cable. Texans Anna is a. Pressure.

14:01

It doubles. This is a bit lacking.

14:03

It's like a case the I made

14:06

a lot plays Seven you sow anti

14:08

semitic flares. It's like a fool me

14:10

to Ramos steps but undeniably is. Indicative.

14:13

Of a system or week creates

14:15

we create monsters. I think I'm

14:18

down to sit take responsibility for

14:20

he's done. But also you see

14:22

the earn. An elderly people

14:25

navigate around him and I guess

14:27

profiting off him and then. It

14:29

doesn't end well. It didn't surprise me. I taught

14:31

something as saying that it why

14:34

he did creatively and to the

14:36

fashion industry is still valid I

14:38

think is that you mention May

14:40

helps adding some context and ah

14:42

read dimensionalize the see gear of

14:44

the designers and also his work

14:46

so you can still appreciate his

14:48

work and what he did for

14:51

the fashion industry Has some anesthetic

14:53

point of view from ah what

14:55

are the runway show can be

14:57

but then also you can admit

14:59

and know that it didn't. Have

15:01

a lot as the depths and may

15:03

be was something that he was more.

15:06

Aesthetically, Pleasing then

15:08

intellectual which doesn't mean that it's

15:10

but especially us and but it

15:13

gives context so it was His

15:15

is always important. Here. You

15:25

know, I think this story represent

15:27

something broader. probably. You know about

15:30

forgiveness and about ah, when high

15:32

profile creative people whose work we

15:34

like do terrible things. What?

15:36

Exactly we want. And the other

15:38

side I'm. I'm curious and

15:41

both of you. Who know

15:43

this industry so well? What is

15:45

the say about Cancel Culture? In

15:47

the fashion industry. I. think

15:50

it's as people move on especially when they

15:52

want the products and they won the case

15:54

of a sex tape sustenance often about dream

15:56

and as long as you make someone dreams

15:58

too happy to move on It

16:01

also can have a very intellectual side,

16:03

but it's not the side

16:05

that's indulged first and foremost. So

16:08

as long as you keep producing the spectacle,

16:10

people don't mind. I mean, it's a ginormous

16:12

industry. So as long as

16:14

you create stuff that sells, that's the first

16:17

thing. And we see that with other

16:20

people trying to come back from cancellation still

16:22

now. I mean, it's very hard to

16:24

put each case side by side, but Alexander

16:26

Wang, the New York designer who was

16:28

accused of sexual harassment, is now trying

16:30

to come back with support from various

16:33

high profile friends. I

16:35

don't think fashion can move

16:37

on from cancellation pretty quickly,

16:39

especially when this profits be

16:42

made. Yeah. Yeah.

16:45

Louis and Akira, thank you so much. We will be

16:47

back in just a minute for more or less. Welcome

17:08

back for more or less, the part of a

17:10

show where each guest says something they want more

17:13

of or less of culturally. And

17:15

Akira, what do you have? So

17:18

on Sunday, I went to

17:20

see Taz's name Zyada, who's

17:22

a Palestinian-British spoken word artist.

17:24

And I loved it. I am not very

17:27

much into poetry or spoken word, but it

17:29

was very emotional. So I'd like to see

17:31

more of that. Yeah, more spoken word. Amazing.

17:34

Louis, I'm so glad Anna Kiara gave that

17:36

answer because it sets mine in such

17:39

dramatic release. On

17:42

Sunday, I went to be Dune 2. And

17:44

I was reminded I'd like to see more

17:46

things that are demented perfume adverts. More?

17:50

More. More. Like,

17:52

I want it five hours long. I want

17:55

more desert. It's actually quite galley, Anna, to

17:57

be honest. It's kind of

17:59

like... more bizarre, I mean it's

18:01

absolutely thrilling and strange. And someone said,

18:03

oh it's like a weird perfume advert.

18:05

I was like, yeah, that's a good

18:08

thing, right? I would buy that scent.

18:12

Someone has come out and said fewer perfume adverts,

18:15

and so I really appreciate the

18:17

defense of the perfume advert. It's

18:19

an underestimated art form. Really? It

18:22

needs a retrospective now. I

18:27

would like more risks. I'm

18:30

sure many of us saw the Oscars on

18:32

Sunday, but Cor Jefferson went up. He won

18:34

for Best Adapted Screenplay for American Fiction. And

18:37

he basically in his speech said, I know

18:39

the film industry is risk averse, but $200

18:41

million for a movie is

18:43

a risk, so why don't we try to make

18:46

20 $10 million movies with that

18:48

money, or like $54

18:50

million movies with that money? And I

18:52

agree. I've been thinking about it since.

18:56

In every industry, including in journalism, I

18:58

want to kind of see more

19:00

risks. Even if something doesn't work, it's

19:03

okay. When it

19:05

does work, it's amazing and changes things. I

19:08

think we all get stuck, and it doesn't really

19:10

serve audiences. More

19:13

risks. I mean, yeah, I

19:15

totally agree. It was all interesting.

19:17

It's all industries under threat, isn't

19:19

it? And under threat, they all

19:21

panic. Film, music, journalism. All industries

19:23

under threat. It's like, I just

19:25

shrink. It's the first thing you cut back

19:28

on. Exactly. Yeah.

19:30

Louis and Anakira, thank you both so much. This

19:32

was such a pleasure. Thanks for being on the

19:34

show. Thank you for having us. Thank

19:36

you. That's

19:43

the show. Thank you for listening to Life

19:45

and Art from FT Weekend. Take a

19:47

read through the show notes. We have links

19:49

that expand on everything mentioned today, including Anakira's

19:52

more or less recommendation, as well as

19:54

places that you can follow Louis and Anakira

19:56

on social media. Every link that goes

19:58

to the FT gets you past the end. the paywall. Also,

20:01

I want to show notes as a discount to

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a subscription to the Financial Times and ways to

20:05

stay in touch with me on email and on

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Instagram. I love hearing from you. I'm

20:10

Lila Rapopoulis and here is my talented

20:12

team. Katya Komkova is our senior producer.

20:15

Lulu Smith is our producer. Our sound

20:17

engineers are Breen Turner and Sam Jovinko

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with original music by Metaphor Music. Topher

20:22

Forehaz is our executive producer and our

20:24

global head of audio is Cheryl Brumley.

20:27

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20:29

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