0:00

Welcome to Episode 60 of

0:00

the life admission podcast. My

0:03

name is Kay Helm. And today My

0:03

guest is Chris Staron, host of

0:07

the Truce Podcast. Chris is an

0:07

exceptional storyteller, and

0:13

we're going to talk about why he

0:13

does what he does and how he

0:16

does what he does. My guest today is Chris Staron,

0:21

an award winning filmmaker,

0:25

author, comedian, and podcaster.

0:25

His heart is for people who are

0:29

on the outside edges of popular

0:29

Christianity. Hi, Chris, how you

0:33

doing?

0:33

All right, Kay. Yourself?

0:35

Wonderful. It's a nice

0:35

sunny day here in Virginia.

0:38

Well, it's it's a nice

0:38

clear day here in Wyoming.

0:41

Want to get started? We

0:41

would love to hear a little

0:43

about you. I know that

0:43

obviously, you're a storyteller.

0:47

But tell us a little more.

0:49

Yeah, so I'm an identical

0:49

twins. So you'll sometimes hear

0:53

me refer to myself as we,

0:53

because my brother and I end up

0:56

doing things all the time. And I

0:56

just lump it all together,

1:00

because I'm always with him.

1:00

That's cool. Like, really great

1:03

guy. And yeah, so I produced Ron

1:03

directed and produced two

1:07

feature length films, two DVDs

1:07

of shorts, one of which was

1:10

animated, one of which was live

1:10

action. I wrote Christian

1:14

novels. And I've now I'm doing

1:14

this podcast called truce, which

1:17

is a history show, about how the

1:17

Christian Church has interacted

1:20

with the world and how history

1:20

impacts us and how we impact

1:24

history. So I'm just wrapping up

1:24

a series about how the rise of

1:29

communism in Russia impacted the

1:29

American Christian church, which

1:33

sounds like a snooze fest, but

1:33

actually is really fascinating

1:37

when you get into it all the

1:37

ways that modern Christianity

1:40

and in the United States has

1:40

come out of our fear of

1:43

communism. And when I'm not

1:43

doing that, I also have, I have

1:47

to sell fund all of those

1:47

things. So I almost have always

1:51

had a second job. And so now I

1:51

am a school bus driver as well,

1:56

to help finance the podcast.

1:56

It's obviously a passion of

2:01

yours. I don't think I could

2:01

stop if I wanted to, as far as

2:04

truus. Because there's, every

2:04

time I think I'm done with a

2:08

story, there's there's like four

2:08

other stories behind that, like,

2:11

it inspires for more stories.

2:11

And so I just keep going and

2:14

going and going, Oh, man. Yeah,

2:14

that's how it works. Yeah. And

2:17

even I, I had scheduled out how

2:17

I was going to end season three,

2:22

which is about communism, and I

2:22

now have over a year's worth of

2:28

topics coming up already listed

2:28

out. So it's like, yep, I guess

2:32

I'm gonna keep doing this for a

2:32

while. Wow. Yeah, storytelling

2:36

is obviously a big part of who

2:36

you are, is, yeah, well, I find

2:41

that it helps me understand how

2:41

we work as people, which is

2:45

really important if you have a

2:45

sort of missions heart and your

2:48

desire to see people grow in the

2:48

Lord. But it's also important if

2:52

you want to understand this kind

2:52

of wacky time that we're in

2:55

right now. how we got to where

2:55

we are, and how we can do

2:58

better. And it helps if you can

2:58

understand why we are the way we

3:03

are and those steps that came

3:03

in. So I found myself a lot in.

3:07

I was teaching high school boy,

3:07

Sunday school, I was involved in

3:10

adult ministries and stuff,

3:10

constantly explaining things to

3:15

folks. And they're like, yeah,

3:15

nobody's ever told me about the

3:18

curse of Ham or something like

3:18

that. And I'm like, what, how am

3:21

I the only person you know, who

3:21

knows about this? And I'm,

3:25

I'm medium intelligence. But I

3:25

can be a real Dumb Dumb about a

3:29

lot of stuff. And so it's been a

3:29

joy for me to learn these

3:34

things. And they come back and

3:34

teach them and it's like, oh, I

3:36

guess maybe I should do a

3:36

podcast, taking those stories

3:40

and and trying to tell them to people.

3:42

Exactly. And God is good.

3:42

He had prepared me for this. He

3:42

And this stories, even

3:42

those stories, like you said

3:45

that we don't really think about

3:45

a lot you gave the example of

3:45

did actually He'd really drawn

3:45

e into that whole story and I h

3:48

the curse of Ham. Yeah. So a

3:48

little story about when we first

3:49

d studied it and that's exact

3:49

y what my response was. It do

3:53

started the nonprofit that I'm a

3:53

part of. And so this would be

3:53

s not exist. Ham was never curs

3:53

d. In fact, he was blessed! Cana

3:56

2006. And I became the leader of

3:56

this organization that was

3:57

n was the one cursed. Yeah, tha

3:57

was gonna impact everything t

4:02

at we did. What she was really a

4:02

king is Do you believe that we

4:03

taking care of education for

4:03

some kids in Uganda. And Sara,

4:08

the woman in charge of that

4:08

program there. She said, I have

4:11

one question for you. And this

4:11

was her question to see if she

4:15

wanted to work with me. And she

4:15

said, What do you believe about

4:18

the curse of Ham?

4:19

Yeah, and hopefully you

4:19

said it doesn't exist.

4:48

You know, when somebody has to

4:48

ask you that. It's really a wake

4:51

up moment. It is it's it's sad. But

4:52

for those of those listening who

4:56

don't know what the curse of Ham

4:56

is, when Noah goes through the

5:00

whole flood and the flood

5:00

recedes. And they go on to dry

5:04

land. He has three sons, one of

5:04

which is named Ham. And there's

5:08

that whole weird story that

5:08

everybody skips over in the

5:11

Bible about him being covered up

5:11

with his nakedness and then

5:14

placing a curse. And he's like, we'll just skip that we don't know what that's about. It's

5:16

actually a very important story,

5:20

not just in the Bible, but also

5:20

in real life. So Noah gets up

5:24

and he curses somebody and says,

5:24

Your people will be the servants

5:29

of your brothers. And so then

5:29

those sons of Noah go in

5:33

different directions. And Ham is

5:33

not cursed, his I think it's his

5:39

son, Canaan that's cursed. And

5:39

so Canaan ends up being cursed,

5:44

which is why later in the Bible,

5:44

the Canaanites are the ones who

5:48

are killed when the people of

5:48

Israel come back into Israel,

5:53

right? everybody's like, Well, why did that happen? It's because of the curse of Canaan.

5:55

But what got turned into was

5:59

people pretended, because it's

5:59

not in the text. It's not there

6:02

in the text that Ham was cursed.

6:02

But people pretended that Ham

6:05

was cursed. And therefore, Ham

6:05

went down to Africa, and he his

6:10

people, became Africans, who

6:10

would then quote, you know, as

6:15

the theory would go, would then

6:15

become the servant of all

6:17

people. And so it was a

6:17

justification for slavery,

6:21

especially in the United States,

6:21

was the story that was, quote

6:24

unquote, biblical, but is

6:24

actually not in the Bible and

6:26

goes a completely different

6:26

direction if you read the text.

6:29

So I ended up doing several

6:29

stories about this and untruths

6:33

and I, every time I thought I

6:33

was done, it would come back.

6:35

I'm like, Okay, fine. We'll talk

6:35

about the curse of Ham again.

6:38

But it's one of those little

6:38

weird stories in the Bible that

6:42

has a tremendous amount of

6:42

impact, and apparently is still

6:46

felt today that it has so many

6:46

repercussions when that one

6:51

little twist of God's Word. And

6:51

I think it really demonstrates a

6:56

lot. And one of my desires in

6:56

life is always to say, read the

6:59

Bible, like yes, and read it for

6:59

yourself. And it's great to get

7:03

good teaching and stuff, but

7:03

always read before the story,

7:07

read after the story, actually

7:07

read the whole thing, read the

7:09

whole Bible, because there's all

7:09

sorts of stuff like this, that

7:12

we get taught in popular

7:12

Christianity that is just not

7:15

there. It's a real shame that

7:15

something is so easily disproven

7:19

comes up time and time and time

7:19

again. Yeah, and it drives just

7:23

some really important bad

7:23

behavior. It really does. It's

7:28

just it's done a lot of harm and

7:28

and that's what happens, right?

7:31

I mean, it's it was the original

7:31

lie in the garden with the snake

7:36

asked that question and Eve

7:36

twisted what God had said, just

7:39

a little bit, just a little bit

7:39

off. Did God really say this,

7:43

that Yeah. Are you find Satan in

7:43

the New Testament talking to

7:47

Jesus as being tempted? Did you

7:47

through using the scripture out

7:51

of context to try to back his

7:51

positions? It happens, it really

7:55

does. So it's one of those

7:55

things that I found myself

7:59

actually telling the curse of

7:59

Ham over and over again, before

8:01

I started the podcast. And I was

8:01

like, okay, fine, I guess I need

8:05

to talk about this on the show. Because we, there's so much

8:07

freedom and getting around those

8:11

things and understanding what's

8:11

going on and where our little

8:14

hang ups come from. And if you

8:14

can understand the history

8:18

behind it, you can make a much

8:18

more informed decision, and I

8:21

think be much better equipped in

8:21

your ministry. The truth is, is

8:26

so true, and and, you know, when

8:26

we have these things that we've

8:29

kind of just heard and absorbed,

8:29

all our lives, there's doctrine,

8:33

but then there's culture.

8:41

And we call it doctrine.

8:41

Sometimes we sometimes we will

8:44

say we justify our culture, by

8:44

our doctrine when it's actually

8:48

not. Or it may even be contrary

8:48

to the actual doctrine, but we

8:53

won't examine is close enough.

8:56

When if you want proof of

8:56

that, just go into the Sermon on

8:58

the Mount. And Jesus is saying,

8:58

you know, love your enemy has

9:02

turned the other cheek and how

9:02

many of us in that church we

9:07

hear our pastors actually not

9:07

saying turn the other cheek, but

9:09

get what's yours. And it's all over Christian

9:12

media and culture, that you're

9:16

supposed to thrive and all that

9:16

kind of stuff. But when Jesus is

9:19

constantly saying, No, no, give

9:19

give your brother your cloak.

9:22

Get give your stuff away. If you

9:22

want even want a subversive

9:26

message, just just read the

9:26

Bible for yourself read read the

9:30

books about Jesus and probably

9:30

be surprised.

9:33

Yes, yes. Yeah, sticking

9:33

with what he actually says and

9:37

does is, I think the best policy

9:37

but not always the easiest way

9:42

for you.

9:43

Of course not. I mean, especially turn the other cheek and we, anytime I'm wrong, I get

9:45

really angry and you know, I

9:49

drive a school bus. I am

9:49

constantly in traffic with

9:53

people doing ridiculous things

9:53

because nobody wants to be

9:56

behind a school bus. Right and

9:56

the things that people do to get

10:00

around a school bus

10:00

unbelievable. So it's been a

10:03

constant challenge for me just

10:03

to try to love people from the

10:07

bus.

10:07

Wow, love people from the

10:07

bus. That sounds like a great

10:10

book, does it? Yeah.

10:15

I've got too many things

10:15

to do something else to do now,

10:18

I don't know.

10:21

Well, on this show on this

10:21

podcast, we say find your voice,

10:24

tell your story, change the

10:24

world. And one of the reasons

10:28

that I wanted to have you on is

10:28

that in your podcast, we've

10:31

talked a little bit about the

10:31

subject matter. And I do want to

10:33

come back to talking about

10:33

expectations, kind of in

10:37

Christian media, there's almost

10:37

a formulaic thing that we

10:40

expect, and what you don't

10:40

really do. And that's one of the

10:43

reasons that I love your show.

10:43

Oh, praise God. But But the

10:47

other reason is that your

10:47

podcast is really more produced

10:51

than the average podcast mean,

10:51

my show I have a guest on, we

10:55

just have a conversation, and I

10:55

record it. And so that's a

10:59

really simple production

10:59

process. still a lot of work. It

11:04

is but not nearly what in what

11:04

you do. And so if you've never

11:09

heard the Truce podcast, what

11:09

Chris does his he crafts, these

11:13

stories, I mean, you you do

11:13

research, and then you might

11:18

have other people come do

11:18

voiceovers and play parts, as

11:22

you kind of recreate some things

11:22

you may I've seen heard you use

11:27

recordings of actual historical

11:27

things. Yeah, you bring all in a

11:33

sound effects and some music. I

11:33

mean, it's really highly

11:37

produced and done with

11:37

excellence, too. And you could

11:42

just sit down and riff on these

11:42

topics, right? You could search

11:46

and just sit down and talk about

11:46

it. But how did you make that

11:49

decision to produce truce the

11:49

way that you do?

11:53

Yeah, well, I have done

11:53

some episodes that are just

11:55

interviews. And I'm totally fine

11:55

with that when it's appropriate.

11:58

That part of the hard thing in

11:58

the market that we're in is that

12:03

we're not used to getting

12:03

context. It's usually, you know,

12:08

this is good, this is bad.

12:08

follow what's good, don't do

12:11

this. But you don't often find

12:11

context in the Christian media,

12:15

or in media in general. And so

12:15

part of that is I don't want to

12:19

put people to sleep if I'm

12:19

talking about the Ad Council,

12:23

which is actually a profoundly

12:23

important organization in the

12:26

United States and in the world.

12:26

But none of us know who they

12:29

are, except Oh, well, they

12:29

created Smokey Bear, or mcgruff,

12:32

the crime dog. But the goal is

12:32

always to be like, I need you to

12:35

be interested long enough that

12:35

you understand why this thing is

12:38

important. And so as part of a

12:38

storyteller, the goal is always

12:43

to find a way to make it interesting. I think it was Albert Einstein,

12:45

I may, I may be misquoting this

12:48

completely, but said that

12:48

basically, anybody, any average

12:52

person can understand pretty

12:52

much anything as long as they

12:55

have a good teacher. I really do

12:55

believe that it's true that most

12:59

any topic can be explained to a

12:59

person of average intelligence,

13:04

if they just have somebody who's

13:04

willing to explain it to them

13:06

well. And so my goal is always

13:06

to take this information and a

13:10

story that generally I think is

13:10

very exciting, and make it

13:13

interesting to other people.

13:13

Like I even did a little bit

13:16

about the importance of shipping

13:16

containers.

13:20

I heard that one.

13:21

Yeah. And we don't think

13:21

of them as being really

13:24

important, but they're super

13:24

important. And they played this

13:27

huge role in history and in the

13:27

way that our economics work in

13:31

this country. So I had to devise

13:31

a way to make people get

13:34

interested in shipping containers.

13:36

Wow. Yeah. The thoughts

13:36

that run through my head when

13:40

I'm listening to the truce

13:40

podcast are things like, wow, I

13:45

never thought of that, or I

13:45

never saw it that way. Those are

13:48

constant. That's my response all

13:48

the time.

13:52

Yeah. That's the hope.

13:52

And that's, I mean, it's a tough

13:54

way to go. In the Christian

13:54

market, especially I find that

13:58

people search for topics that

13:58

they're interested in, they

14:01

don't really want to be

14:01

surprised by Oh, wow, this is

14:04

really interesting. We're just

14:04

not used to that. And so that's

14:07

one of the battles I've been

14:07

facing, as I titled an episode,

14:10

the Ad Council, the CIA and

14:10

Christian America, it's like

14:13

when people may not want to

14:13

listen to that. It might not be

14:15

interesting, or the American

14:15

coup in Guatemala, a very

14:19

important episode, one of my

14:19

favorites, but it's hard to get

14:22

people interested if that's not

14:22

what they're already looking

14:24

for. But the shows that I love

14:24

the most are the ones that you

14:28

walk away, like, I had no idea

14:28

that the shipping container was

14:31

so important, you know, or that

14:31

10 commandments, monuments

14:34

haven't been around forever. I'd

14:34

like a sense of wonder. I just

14:38

think it's such a vital way to

14:38

learn, you know, you continue to

14:42

learn you got your masters and

14:42

stuff. You know how important it

14:46

is as an adult to continue to

14:46

learn things. And wonder is a

14:50

great way to do that. To keep

14:50

people focused. Learning.

14:54

Yeah, that's good. You

14:54

know, like we say, storytelling,

14:57

it's that you have developed

14:57

these skills. Have

15:00

storytelling, you're going

15:00

through a lot of work to produce

15:03

something to hold our interest.

15:06

Yeah.

15:06

What's the process for you

15:06

to produce a typical episode?

15:11

Yeah, well, I generally

15:11

come up with the idea months and

15:14

months and months in advance. So

15:14

I've just got lists of, of

15:18

ideas, and I try to order them

15:18

in a spreadsheet. So I get kind

15:21

of an idea of a logical

15:21

progression of this leads to

15:24

that, that leads to that, that

15:24

leads to that, which can be

15:26

confusing for the audience,

15:26

because they'll see me covering

15:29

things like the New Deal. And

15:29

they'll be like, Why in the

15:31

world? Would you talk about the

15:31

New Deal? Well, in three or four

15:35

episodes, it's gonna like start

15:35

featuring and every single thing

15:38

we talk about, so you really

15:38

need to understand what it is,

15:41

or why did we talk about Russia

15:41

for like six episodes, what's

15:45

because I don't want you to just

15:45

judge those people and be like,

15:48

those ridiculous Russians fell

15:48

into communism, and there's no

15:51

logic to how they got there.

15:51

It's faulty logic. But there is

15:55

logic. And so it helps us have

15:55

compassion to see like, Oh, this

15:59

is how they got there. These are

15:59

the circumstances and things.

16:02

And so I'm always kind of

16:02

looking for a progression in

16:06

stories so that they try to

16:06

build on each other. And so once

16:09

I've gotten that, I just start

16:09

reading books and listening to

16:13

podcasts and watching

16:13

documentaries, get some ideas.

16:16

And oftentimes, it's too much to

16:16

give people a lot of what things

16:22

to walk away with. So I'm trying

16:22

to generally start the episode

16:26

with the takeaway, then I work

16:26

through the story. And about

16:30

halfway through you reencounter,

16:30

the thing we talked at the

16:33

beginning that you thought had

16:33

nothing to do with the show, at

16:38

the topic at all, yeah, that

16:38

comes that comes back up. And

16:41

then I kind of end with that

16:41

same takeaway idea. So that

16:44

during countering that a few

16:44

different times, and a lot of

16:47

times I'm interviewing experts

16:47

in the field who aren't may not

16:51

even be Christians. And then

16:51

that, to me is really

16:53

fascinating and has been

16:53

exciting, it does impact the

16:57

download numbers, because a lot

16:57

of people go like, Oh, you know,

17:00

my favorite Christian celebrity

17:00

is on this podcast, I'm gonna go

17:02

listen to it, you don't get that

17:02

on my show very.

19:18

There was an episode I released

19:18

over Thanksgiving that I

19:22

released two weeks early, and I

19:22

had to write the audience like

19:24

I'm sorry, I've got nothing to

19:24

put in its place in two weeks.

19:27

Let's just pretend this is

19:27

coming out when it's supposed

19:31

this because you know it's funny

19:31

because even a simple podcast

19:35

has a lot of backend stuff that

19:35

nobody knows about. That's right

19:38

writing the show notes and

19:38

uploading it and making graphics

19:41

and those kinds of things

19:41

building your website. And so

19:45

that all that other stuff goes

19:45

in and I make mistakes, but I i

19:49

it gives me a lot of hope. I'm

19:49

so excited for the day that God

19:52

willing, I can have a staff that

19:52

would be so great to be able to

19:55

say you go research this thing.

19:55

That would be the greatest but

19:59

I'm kind of a long ways away

19:59

from that right now.

20:02

I for one will be cheering

20:02

you on. Because I think of

20:05

truce. I mean, so if you haven't

20:05

heard Truce, and I know I've

20:08

tried to describe it, but if you

20:08

have heard like an NPR podcast,

20:14

you know, the way they produce

20:14

things BBC kind of does the

20:17

same. The there. I mean, there's

20:17

so like, they have a whole

20:21

newsroom doing that. So you're

20:21

doing that solo? Right?

20:26

Yeah. Yeah. So they're

20:26

gonna, you know, that's why the

20:29

show comes out only every two

20:29

weeks. And there are some times

20:32

where I have to have an

20:32

interview with somebody. I just

20:34

had an interview with Skye

20:34

Jethani that came out and I have

20:36

a few coming up to try and buy

20:36

myself time. Yeah, yeah, the

20:40

nice thing about him is he just let him go. I didn't have to be brilliant.

20:43

He just kind of went and it was

20:46

great. So it was actually kind

20:46

of easy. But I do kind of buffer

20:50

sometimes when I need to buy

20:50

time. And I'll have to replace

20:54

them episodes coming up, as well

20:54

to buy myself some time, because

20:58

it does take a tremendous amount

20:58

of time for me to make these

21:00

episodes. It's hard for me not

21:00

to do a story in this manner.

21:04

Because I really love the shows

21:04

I love to listen to are

21:06

generally told in this sort of

21:06

public radio style. And I find

21:11

them to be really engaging. And

21:11

it's something that not many

21:14

people are doing in the Christian market. So there's kind of this, this great

21:16

opportunity to fill that need.

21:20

Yeah, yeah, absolutely.

21:20

What you just mentioned the

21:23

Christian market. And before we

21:23

started recording, we talked we

21:27

were talking a little bit about

21:27

there are all these

21:30

expectations. There's kind of

21:30

when you say, Christian radio,

21:35

christian movie, Christian TV,

21:35

right. There's a there's a

21:40

particular type of program that

21:40

comes to mind.

21:45

Yeah, yeah, for each of

21:45

those. Yeah. And they're all

21:48

kind of run by different folks.

21:48

And the top thing, I did some

21:53

episodes on this in season two

21:53

on the Christian film market,

21:55

and why it is the way it is. And

21:55

once you kind of understand the

21:58

back end, the front end makes

21:58

total sense. For the Christian

22:01

film world specifically. What's

22:01

interesting about it is that it

22:05

is very underfunded, and it has

22:05

been underfunded basically

22:09

forever. All of its existence,

22:09

even though some of them the

22:12

very first films ever made at

22:12

all moving pictures were

22:15

Christian films, going back to

22:15

the Lumiere brothers, but

22:19

they've always been underfunded.

22:19

So part of the problem is how do

22:22

I make money on this underfunded

22:22

thing? And movies? Unlike

22:26

podcasts, a movie is incredibly

22:26

expensive. No matter what level

22:29

you make it at. You can't make a

22:29

cheap film that looks good. And

22:34

right or sounds good. So how do

22:34

you pay that back?

22:38

And the trouble is that in the

22:38

Christian market, especially now

22:40

in the world of streaming, it's

22:40

really really hard to make money

22:44

because like Amazon Prime, which

22:44

my films run, we get six cents

22:48

per hour watched. So if somebody

22:48

watches my films all the way

22:51

through, I get nine cents. Wow.

22:51

Which is terrible. You can't do

22:55

anything with Wow, do the math

22:55

and do the math and figure out

22:59

how many views it would take me

22:59

to make a one day living wage.

23:03

And also remember, I had to

23:03

split that again, across me and

23:05

my brother. It would be an

23:05

insane number, like every single

23:09

person in my state would have to

23:09

watch the film for me. All

23:12

right, people get on it. Well,

23:12

yeah, or to send me 10 cents. So

23:17

you got that issue, especially

23:17

now. But in the DVD world back

23:20

when no Hollywood video or

23:20

blockbuster were going, I think

23:24

it was Hollywood video paid you

23:24

per download hour per viewing

23:28

when somebody would take the DVD

23:28

out of the store. Got basically

23:32

$1 it was a little less than

23:32

that. But we'll just say it was

23:34

$1. And so here we are 20 years

23:34

later, and we're getting nine

23:38

cents. Wow. Despite all the

23:38

inflation and the growth. So the

23:42

market is changing to where are

23:42

the people who are actually

23:45

paying money because the

23:45

streaming, we can't make the

23:47

money on streaming. So the money

23:47

is made in rentals. And it was

23:52

before but now it is becoming

23:52

more important. Well, it was

23:54

before COVID Yeah, but the

23:54

problem with theater rentals is

23:58

you need a film that will grab

23:58

bull T and get them in the

24:01

seats. So I can't remember the

24:01

one that was about Abby Johnson

24:05

and oh, unplanned that one was

24:05

about a pro life movie that came

24:09

out like two or three years ago,

24:09

that one got butts in the seats,

24:13

because it was a pro life film,

24:13

and it wasn't getting get

24:16

mainstream stuff. And Fox news

24:16

was pushing it pretty hard as

24:19

well. It still did really poorly

24:19

compared to a normal film, you

24:24

know, like a Hollywood film. But

24:24

that kind of sensationalism got

24:28

it out there. Because it was

24:28

controversial. They could get

24:31

the butts in the seats, and they

24:31

could pay for the thing. If you

24:33

get a film that's just a nice

24:33

romantic comedy or something,

24:36

it's much harder to market. So

24:36

they're almost there is a

24:42

there's a temptation to build

24:42

something that is going to make

24:44

people angry, so that they will

24:44

show up. Or the other thing is

24:48

that you're seeing a lot more

24:48

building on existing properties.

24:52

So they'll take an existing book

24:52

or a movie or song even and

24:56

they'll make a whole movie based

24:56

on that existing property. So by

25:00

So that that person's existing

25:00

audience will come in and

25:03

support it. And that sounds like

25:03

it's really benign, but it

25:06

actually is to a creative

25:06

market. It is kind of a death

25:10

knell. Because if you're being

25:10

incentivized to only tell

25:14

stories based on a true story,

25:14

you're seeing the end of

25:17

creative stories, original

25:17

thought. And so yeah, I can go

25:21

on and on about that. But like

25:21

the Christian book world is

25:24

written in a very similar way,

25:24

it operates off of who is buying

25:28

stuff. And the people who buy

25:28

books are generally people who

25:32

want to be angry, or you're

25:32

looking at very conservative

25:35

people, or very charismatic

25:35

people. Those are your markets.

25:38

And if you're not angry,

25:38

charismatic, or conservative,

25:41

and exactly like they want,

25:41

people aren't buying the book,

25:45

so you won't find a publisher.

25:45

And and that's, that's just sort

25:49

of the realities of the market.

25:49

If we wanted to change things,

25:52

as consumers, we would support

25:52

the people who are making

25:56

different materials. But those

25:56

people are often lower budget.

26:00

Yeah, because they don't have the big publishing houses and things behind them.

26:03

Yeah. So that we there's,

26:03

you know, at the same time, all

26:05

that's happening, we got self

26:05

publishing, is exploding, but

26:09

then that's kind of like, you never really know what you're going to get.

26:12

Yeah, you don't Yeah, and

26:12

yeah, there's a there's a beauty

26:16

of the gatekeepers is they kind

26:16

of thinned the hurt a little

26:18

bit. Now anybody can get out

26:18

there. But it also, as an

26:21

author, having done this myself,

26:21

part of the problem is that I

26:25

not only have to be a good

26:25

writer, and I'm okay. I also

26:29

have to be a really good graphic

26:29

designer for the cover. And I

26:32

have to be a really great

26:32

proofreader. Because I've got

26:34

nobody overseeing the the,

26:34

there's no editorial staff

26:38

looking at this stuff to it is

26:38

yeah, and then then you also

26:43

have to be amazing at marketing

26:43

your book, which you know, you

26:46

can't be amazing at all those

26:46

things. It was kind of the same

26:49

in the Christian film world.

26:49

Like I could be a pretty good

26:52

writer, director, but I'm a

26:52

terrible marketer.

26:57

Because I feel like marketing is

26:57

sleazy. I just don't like doing

27:00

it. And I shouldn't say all

27:00

marketers is sleazy. That does,

27:02

that's not what I meant to say,

27:02

but I feel sleazy doing it. But

27:07

we as like independent creators

27:07

are called on to be all those

27:10

things, and we're not going to

27:10

be able to be all of them. Well,

27:14

yeah, you can't wear all

27:14

the hats. You don't get that one

27:18

thing if we could work in our

27:18

gifts and bring the people

27:22

around. And of course, bringing

27:22

people around to be a part of

27:24

your project often requires a

27:24

budget.

27:29

It does. Yeah, cuz we got

27:29

to eat, you know,

27:31

exactly.

27:34

You know, people have

27:34

contacted me about being a part

27:36

of their shows, but I can't, I

27:36

can't take on yet another. I

27:40

have three jobs right now. I

27:40

can't take on another one. So

27:44

yeah, we talked a little

27:44

bit about the expectations of

27:49

the Christian market and the

27:49

content that you explore on

27:54

truce and the way that you give

27:54

context to things that we don't

27:58

always think all the way through

27:58

that really affect our Christian

28:02

culture. Yeah. And and then

28:02

you're talking about the

28:05

gatekeepers, and all these

28:05

different influences that affect

28:10

who we're hearing and, and you

28:10

touched on something I want to

28:13

go back to where you said, you

28:13

have to be angry, to get your

28:18

book published, or your piece

28:18

out there. When I first started

28:21

working in the nonprofit world.

28:21

I had subscribed to a magazine,

28:24

I don't know if anybody

28:24

remembers print magazines, but

28:27

magazine on fundraising. And

28:27

there's this one episode, this

28:31

one episode, see, this one issue

28:31

of this magazine that came in in

28:37

the cover was about how to raise

28:37

funds from religious people.

28:42

And by religious they really

28:42

meant Christian, it was pretty

28:44

obvious. And they said that the

28:44

way to raise money was polarize

28:51

the issue and to push people

28:51

toward whatever end, and that

28:58

that's how you would motivate

28:58

them to part with their money.

29:01

And it and like you were talking

29:01

about marketing, feeling sleazy.

29:05

That felt really sleazy. I

29:05

thought, Oh, my gosh, that's not

29:09

like, that's not what we are

29:09

called to as Christians is not

29:12

to go be polarized and angry all

29:12

the time. And all of these these

29:17

things, and I really grieved

29:17

that.

29:21

Yeah. Yeah, I do, too.

30:00

Our greatest inhibitors for

30:00

sharing the gospel right now is

30:04

that we're so focused on

30:04

creating an enemy. What I like

30:07

to say is those people, if those

30:07

people didn't exist, then this

30:12

whole country would be great, and the church would be wonderful. And that's not true.

30:14

The reality is that Jesus died

30:18

for us, and then died for them

30:18

as well. So I had a guest on a

30:24

few years ago, who said, even if

30:24

you believe that Muslims are

30:28

your enemy, Jesus commanded you

30:28

to love your enemy. So there's

30:33

no way that you can get out of

30:33

saying, Oh, well, I don't have

30:35

to pay attention to those people. I don't have to share the gospel. There's no secret

30:37

door, there's no loophole out of

30:41

this. You are to love all of the

30:41

people. And you are to share the

30:46

gospel to all nations,

30:46

regardless of who you think

30:50

those people are. Fact I would

30:50

say, be if you have those people

30:54

in your life, maybe that's who

30:54

you need to be focusing on.

30:58

Maybe that's who God has called

30:58

you to minister to? I don't

31:01

know. I'll get off that soapbox.

31:01

But I think that's, that's

31:05

really valuable in this time,

31:05

when so many people, I'm not a

31:10

great evangelist, I'm actually

31:10

pretty bad at it. But I try. And

31:15

when I do end up talking to non

31:15

Christians, a lot of the times

31:18

it ends up coming around to

31:18

politics and economics and those

31:23

kinds of things and not having

31:23

to do with Jesus at all. And my

31:28

goal is generally to be

31:28

exception to what they think a

31:31

Christian is, because they think

31:31

of Christians as being these

31:33

bullies and these jerks. And if

31:33

I can be the exception and be

31:38

like, No, I'm, I'm a human

31:38

being. I'm a flawed human being,

31:41

by I'm a human being who has a

31:41

relationship with the Creator.

31:45

And that's a pretty cool thing.

31:45

I think that's way better than

31:48

me just listing all of their

31:48

sins. I don't think that's as

31:51

effective.

31:52

Yeah, it's, I don't think

31:52

it's ever helpful to get into

31:55

those they conversations. I

31:55

mean, when we turn somebody into

31:59

the other, or into they know

31:59

that other group, have spent

32:05

time with genocide survivors,

32:05

I've studied it a bit, not not

32:09

an expert, but I've been around

32:09

it in the end the work that we

32:12

do, and it always starts with

32:12

making those divisions and

32:19

polarizing people and

32:19

scapegoating. And the name, just

32:24

the dehumanization, in the

32:24

language that we use. When we

32:27

start calling names. When we

32:27

don't refer we don't have a real

32:34

relationship. And we teach it's

32:34

not ours, but it's used in

32:40

reconciliation programs around

32:40

the world is this journey of

32:44

journey of healed trauma journey

32:44

of unhealed trauma, the only the

32:47

The main difference between the

32:47

two models is the storytelling.

32:53

Yeah, that just tells you how

32:53

important that is, like

32:55

literally people live and die on

32:55

our stories that we tell, really

33:00

do.

33:01

They really do. And

33:01

that's a scary thing. I mean,

33:04

you look at our political

33:04

situation. Now, people believe

33:07

the story that the election was

33:07

stolen in the United States, and

33:11

it was clearly disproven,

33:11

easily, easily disproven. And

33:15

what it did on January 6, will

33:15

storming the Capitol was based

33:20

on the power of a story. Not

33:20

backed by facts, but it aligned

33:25

with what they wanted to believe

33:25

and created a day that those

33:28

people, those democrats or

33:28

whatever, are, are bringing this

33:34

country down and there and the

33:34

reason I am I No, don't have the

33:39

job I want or I'm not as wealthy

33:39

as I want to be, or the world

33:42

doesn't look like it did when my

33:42

grandparents were alive is

33:44

because of those people. And so

33:44

I'm going to go storm and

33:48

capital stories have a real

33:48

impact, which is, again, it's

33:51

one of the reasons I think that

33:51

teachers are going to be judged

33:56

harsher. Because what we do, has

33:56

a huge impact on people. So I

34:01

think it's, it's vitally

34:01

important that we as teachers,

34:05

encourage folks to look deep.

34:05

Like what I like to say is,

34:09

oftentimes the problem that

34:09

you're having with somebody is

34:12

not the real problem. So it's

34:12

like, if you get an argument

34:15

with a loved one, we argue with

34:15

our loved ones the most, because

34:18

we love them, and they're close

34:18

to us. So you may be upset that

34:22

somebody didn't, you know, do

34:22

the dishes. But what in reality,

34:26

what's behind that is you're

34:26

upset that they forgot your

34:28

birthday, you know, and so maybe

34:28

your reaction about the dishes

34:32

is way over the top, because

34:32

it's not really the main issue.

34:36

There's something behind that.

34:36

But I think what we, as

34:39

Christian teachers can do is try

34:39

to encourage people to look for

34:41

that issue that's behind

34:41

something, rather than seeing

34:45

the symptoms of that thing. So,

34:45

you know, if you're, you know,

34:49

the Bible does call

34:49

homosexuality a sin, for

34:52

example, but in the Christian

34:52

world, that that sin, and

34:56

there's a lot of sins that all

34:56

of us fall into, that sin has

34:59

been elevated above all the

34:59

other ones to be like the mark

35:02

of the beast and that when it's

35:02

not, you know, and so we should

35:07

be doing is seeing what's behind

35:07

that, that thing that sin and

35:12

trying to minister the people,

35:12

rather than to just be able to

35:15

write them off as like, Oh, I

35:15

can't talk to you because you

35:18

have this one sin that I don't

35:18

struggle with that.

35:23

Oh, yeah, you know gossip

35:23

isn't that same list?

35:25

I think it is. Yeah. When

35:25

you look at you look at the

35:30

words of Jesus and and then the

35:30

Pharisees are all proud of

35:33

themselves because they they

35:33

haven't committed adultery. And

35:36

what does Jesus say? Well, if

35:36

you have lusted after a woman in

35:39

your heart, then you have

35:39

committed adultery with her and

35:42

honest to goodness, that's going

35:42

to put all of us into those

35:44

categories. All of us are

35:44

adulterers, if you've ever seen

35:49

somebody who's good looking,

35:49

probably committed adultery in

35:52

your heart. And so we, we forget

35:52

that that levels, the playing

35:57

field, and that's a scary thing

35:57

to think that I am on the same

36:00

level as every other sinner. But

36:00

it's also very freeing as a

36:03

believer to be like, Okay, well,

36:03

now I no longer have to be all

36:07

judgy I can just go out there

36:07

and be Christ to people. And

36:12

there's so much freedom. I don't

36:12

know, I got the soapbox in a

36:15

second. But I feel like one of

36:15

the things that should bind us

36:19

together as Christians is that

36:19

we have all admitted that we are

36:23

sinners, that we we pray, but

36:23

then we pretend like we aren't,

36:28

or we haven't been centered. And

36:28

that's really dangerous. You

36:31

know, we have to remember that

36:31

Christ has saved all of us. And

36:35

if but for the grace of God, we

36:35

would all be lost in our sin. So

36:40

we have no reason to be as high

36:40

and mighty as we are. So anyway,

36:46

end up end of soapbox.

36:49

Well, it's it's truth,

36:49

right? And that's, that's what

36:52

we're responsible to do is to

36:52

tell the truth, and people don't

36:55

always want to hear that. But

36:55

like you said, as teacher

36:58

that's, that's our

36:58

responsibility. And so thank you

37:02

for doing that. I want to

37:02

encourage people check out

37:05

truce, sit down and enjoy a few.

37:05

It's, it's great for binge

37:10

listening. You don't have binge

37:10

Listen, I mean, the episodes

37:13

are, what, 20-30 minutes.

37:15

They're between 20 and 40 minutes.

37:17

Yeah, okay. They're not so

37:17

long and heavy that you know,

37:21

and there's they're really

37:21

interesting, but go in with it

37:24

with an open mind and ready to

37:24

learn something. And context and

37:28

context is so important,

37:28

especially in this day and age,

37:32

it's hard to find. So thank you

37:32

for doing that hard work.

37:36

There's one episode that I

37:36

recently listened to, that I

37:39

loved that you were using

37:39

material from a book that you'd

37:43

use to research the topic. But

37:43

in rather than just quoting the

37:47

book, or even reading from the

37:47

book, or having somebody voice

37:50

over what the author had said,

37:50

you went and found the author

37:55

and interviewed him. And so we

37:55

got to hear what he had to say,

37:59

and just those extra steps in a

37:59

lot. I know, I'm thankful for

38:05

that effort. And I hope that

38:05

that does pay off for you sooner

38:10

rather than later. It's so good

38:10

quality work like this good

38:14

quality storytelling, and I'm

38:14

talking to all yell, all you

38:18

content creators out there, do

38:18

the good work, and also realize

38:22

that it that that is work that

38:22

you should be getting paid for.

38:27

And it's okay to get paid.

38:28

And it's Yeah, it's

38:28

important because as we were

38:31

talking in the pre interview, I

38:31

recently realized that I'm kind

38:34

of poor, and it can be a really

38:34

scary thing. I think a lot of

38:37

content creators live in that

38:37

space. And we all know what it's

38:40

like to have somebody come up

38:40

and say, oh, would you do this

38:43

thing for me for free, and they

38:43

try to guilt you into it, but

38:46

you deserve to be paid. And I

38:46

think there's a lot of backup in

38:50

Scripture for that. Yeah. You

38:50

know, the ox should not be

38:53

muzzled while it reaps, you

38:53

know, yeah.

38:56

in ministry and nonprofit

38:56

we get the it's kind of the

38:58

same. Same type of thing. I'm

38:58

right there with you.

39:01

Yeah, yeah. I mean, I

39:01

think it's thing that's so

39:04

unfortunate, because we like, we

39:04

like to have missionaries look

39:08

sufficiently happy and also

39:08

sufficiently poor. And like, the

39:12

worst possible thing we can

39:12

imagine is a is a missionary

39:14

who's well funded, because we

39:14

love those stories of like, Oh,

39:18

I got down to my last dollar,

39:18

and then God sent a check. Well,

39:21

I think those stories are

39:21

actually really sad. Because

39:23

it's like, well, imagine what

39:23

they could do if they didn't

39:25

have to go from check to check.

39:25

It's kind of a dehumanizing

39:29

thing.

39:30

I love the stories where

39:30

the missionary has, what they

39:33

need to get where they're going

39:33

and do what God's called them to

39:35

do. And then we get to see God

39:35

moving and providing in somebody

39:40

else's life, you know, and think

39:40

that the stories we get then.

39:44

Yeah, I know, they're not

39:44

as dramatic. But, you know, it's

39:48

what we could do if our

39:48

missionaries were well funded. I

39:51

guess we could talk about that forever.

39:52

But yeah, well, for those

39:52

of you interested in that

39:55

conversation, the show before

39:55

this one is my interview with

40:00

Mary Valloni who is a

40:00

fundraising coach for

40:02

missionaries,

40:03

That's it. Yeah. Good

40:03

plug. Good cross promotion

40:06

there.

40:07

That's right. Chris, thank

40:07

you so much for being on all the

40:10

links are gonna be in the show

40:10

notes. And so you'll be able to

40:13

find the truce podcast and

40:13

connect with Chris on the

40:16

different social media areas and

40:16

do go give that a listen. And

40:21

let us both know what you think.

40:24

Yeah, thank you so much

40:24

for having me on. Kay, this has

40:26

been great.

40:28

As always, the show notes

40:28

are at lifeandmission.com This

40:31

is Episode 60. So you'll find

40:31

the notes at

40:34

lifeandmission.com/60. Hey, if

40:34

you enjoyed this show, and if

40:41

especially if you check out

40:41

Chris's podcast, why don't you

40:45

go on and review both of them?

40:45

That would really be awesome.

40:48

And it would help us both out.

40:48

That's how podcasts grow is when

40:52

you share it with your friends

40:52

and when you write a review. So

40:57

that's why we talk about this

40:57

thing so much. And that wraps it

41:00

up until two weeks from now when

41:00

we'll be back with another

41:04

episode. This has been the life

41:04

and mission podcast I'm Kay

41:07

Helm. Find your voice. Tell your

41:07

story. Chang the world.