0:09

Welcome to Talk Wealth to Me, a

0:11

Safe Space podcast where we chat about anything

0:14

and everything related to personal finance. The

0:19

Information contained in this podcast is

0:21

for educational and entertainment purposes

0:23

only. It does not constitute as accounting,

0:26

legal, tax, or other

0:28

professional advice.

0:31

Hello everybody and welcome back. This

0:34

week we are joined again by Katie

0:36

. Katie, welcome back.

0:37

Thank you .

0:38

So happy to have you here today and today's

0:40

discussion. Phil is, Katie's

0:43

got a lot to say on this. She just recently wrote

0:46

a follow up to an article she wrote for

0:48

debtwave .org a while back.

0:51

Uh , and now the CFPB is,

0:55

it's coming back into play again. They

0:57

, they're making news and it's about a whole

0:59

new system that's actually been around

1:01

for a while , but not a lot of people have

1:03

known about until recently. And

1:05

it's now it's , we're starting to see

1:08

that the consumers are starting to get themselves

1:10

into trouble and that is by now pay

1:13

later. So Katie , you're

1:15

the one that has really gotten down and dirty

1:17

on this information. It

1:21

seems to me. I have never done it. Uh,

1:24

but I, it seems

1:27

to me that it's a cross between

1:29

legitimate credit cards and

1:31

something that we see our service members

1:34

use a lot. Um , and those predatory

1:36

lenders , uh, in , in payday

1:38

loans.

1:40

Why don't think service members do

1:42

the payday loans so much anymore? I think,

1:44

Well that's because the government

1:45

Kinda ,

1:45

the government told 'em not to.

1:47

Right. So I wonder if

1:49

it's, if this, that's next for

1:52

buy now, pay later some government involvement.

1:55

I think so, cuz like Chase mentioned the Consumer

1:57

Financial Protection Bureau, the CF

1:59

p b , it's um, it's

2:02

not like a political entity

2:04

as part of the government, but it is, there

2:07

is like a political appointee running the

2:09

organization. So there can be a little bit of

2:11

like political flavoring. But generally

2:14

their role is to try to make

2:16

it safe for consumers to save,

2:18

spend, invest their money, and

2:20

not get involved in traps

2:23

like payday loans, like you mentioned. That has

2:26

been a huge trap that I think we've talked about

2:28

before. And with like

2:30

after pay carna, like

2:33

all these buy now pay later apps. When

2:36

it first came out, I honestly had

2:39

no idea how it really worked. And

2:41

so to me it sounded kind of like layaway

2:44

except for, except

2:45

To get to take it.

2:46

Yeah. Instead of waiting to be

2:48

able to use or wear whatever item it is, you get to

2:50

have it right away. And for

2:52

me, when I was looking at after

2:55

pay and all these different buy now , pay later apps,

2:58

it seemed like a huge like

3:02

motivation to use it was to

3:04

buy fashion, to buy clothes, To

3:07

buy shoes.

3:07

Yeah.

3:08

And as somebody who is interested in

3:10

fashion but doesn't necessarily have the budget

3:12

to back up what I want, I

3:15

really was interested in like, how are people using

3:17

this? How does this work? And

3:19

so the idea of being able to buy, you

3:22

know, $500 boots, but

3:24

divide that up into four payments, like that

3:26

does sound really exciting. But at the same

3:29

time, I started to get really

3:31

passionate about it in

3:33

a sense that I felt like this was gonna get a

3:35

lot of people in trouble when you

3:37

saw a lot of fast fashion

3:39

places like Sheen

3:41

popping up who are creating

3:44

a fashion that was, I mean

3:46

I think it's well known now that none of

3:48

the sizes seem to match up. It's common

3:50

to get something that doesn't fit. It's common

3:52

to get something that's ripped or whatever. They

3:54

only make a certain amount of each

3:57

style. So people go buy

3:59

new things every day . They

4:01

wear it once, but they're still paying For

4:03

it.

4:03

Very difficult to return too . I have found

4:05

out , uh, just recently since my 12 year old

4:07

daughter bought , uh, a

4:10

pair of pants that didn't fit. I

4:12

didn't even know what the organization

4:14

was, but I found out it's a pain in the neck to

4:17

return

4:18

We even did when we did the

4:20

swim live for this Katie, and , and this

4:22

was a while ago, maybe almost a year ago, we

4:24

even did fast

4:27

fashion and by now pay

4:29

later put together because

4:31

they do go so hand in hand .

4:33

Yeah.

4:33

Mm -hmm . <affirmative> .

4:33

And you do have that urge

4:36

to, it's only a few dollars, you

4:38

know, the shirts are six

4:41

bucks , the, you know, everything

4:43

is so inexpensive. You add a whole bunch

4:45

of them into the cart and then at the end

4:47

you get the option to break it down even more

4:50

and put it in four easy payments,

4:52

five easy payments or whatever it is. And

4:55

it's not like layaway where you have

4:57

to sit there and watch it and change your

4:59

mind about the purchase. You've

5:01

already got it, it's already been shipped

5:03

and now you have to pay it. But

5:06

you know, what he mentioned is no

5:08

one's really tracking how many of those little payments

5:10

you have set up for the future.

5:13

Yeah. No . And it's actually affecting

5:16

people who are trying to buy a home because

5:19

you think, well first of all, these

5:21

payments are not necessarily gonna show up on your

5:23

credit report.

5:24

They don't not yet anyway, so

5:25

When someone's telling you, Hey, this

5:28

is how much you can afford, I

5:30

believe on a house payment, they

5:32

have no clue that by the way,

5:34

you're spending $700

5:36

extra per month pay

5:38

off <laugh> one skirt and

5:40

a pair of shoes or something. I don't know .

5:42

Right.

5:44

But I think it's also interesting, like

5:46

the CFPB got involved because

5:49

they're seeing a trend that not

5:51

only does Generation Z not

5:53

like to use credit cards, so they prefer

5:55

this style of micro installment

5:57

loans, but older Americans

6:00

like millennials, Gen X , Generation

6:02

X, they're using these buy

6:04

now pay later apps to pay for groceries

6:07

or for pet care for

6:10

childcare . Like basic ne

6:12

like necessities.

6:13

Every day expenses.

6:13

Yeah. And that's a concern.

6:16

It is a concern and that's why I, I said

6:18

it, that's why I said

6:20

it's kind of a cross because you

6:23

know, there may not be any interest.

6:25

Right. There's so there you're

6:27

not paying interest like with credit cards, which their

6:30

interest rates are are pretty crazy right

6:32

now, especially with the interest rates as

6:34

high as they are. Um,

6:37

but if you don't pay

6:39

that for in that four months

6:41

and you don't, you don't , uh, pay

6:44

it off within that uh, required

6:47

time, you're gonna get penalties

6:49

which then add to

6:51

the debt. Um, and so, and those penalties

6:54

can be pretty stiff , uh, because they're

6:56

not regulated like credit

6:58

cards are. Uh, and so

7:01

I guess when the CFPB

7:04

is talking about regulating

7:06

it or looking at regulating it , uh,

7:09

similarly to the credit industry,

7:11

it's because as as different as they

7:13

are, they're extraordinarily similar and

7:16

they can get you into debt just

7:18

as quickly if you're not careful.

7:20

Well also, do you guys remember back

7:22

in the day when before there

7:24

was all these targeted social media ads, there

7:27

were those ad advertisement

7:29

editorials on tv and then you get a

7:31

low, low price locked in .

7:32

Oh Yeah.

7:32

But you had to call now or call in the next

7:34

like five minutes and it would be like four

7:37

payments of 1999.

7:39

Yep .

7:39

This is what that sounds like now.

7:41

Yeah.

7:42

Right,

7:42

right.

7:42

Absolutely.

7:43

And how many people got stuck

7:46

like buying something? You tried to return

7:48

it right? To Chase's point, you're

7:50

stuck trying to return something.

7:51

Oh yeah.

7:51

But these payments keep happening. Like you

7:53

still have to keep paying for it.

7:55

Oh. And it , they don't make it any

7:57

even close to easy to

7:59

, uh, turning it off or,

8:02

or getting rid of the quote unquote subscription

8:04

, uh, that it is a

8:07

giant pain in the neck. I mean, it's dangerous

8:09

to make any of those calls to buy

8:11

those kinds of things. In fact, it's funny you mentioned

8:13

that because it was one that I saw the other day

8:16

to that was this , uh, beautiful

8:19

, uh, wax that you would put on your

8:21

car and it's just incredible and

8:23

it's only yours for 19

8:25

95, 4 easy payments of 1995. I'm

8:27

like, Oh yeah, I don't want that. It can't be

8:30

that.

8:30

Plus shipping and handling <laugh> .

8:31

Right.

8:31

Well I'm not that , I mean, I'm not

8:33

that great with math either, so I mean, it would take me a minute,

8:35

like, how much actually am I paying? Like , cause

8:38

I'm stuck on this 1995,

8:40

so, and

8:41

That's exactly what

8:42

I'm doing five payments. Exactly.

8:44

Right. It , it's , it's brilliant by

8:47

them. I I mean it's, there's

8:49

smart people putting these things together that take advantage

8:51

of a lot of people. Now is that to say

8:53

that smart pe that that that

8:56

people shouldn't be responsible

8:59

for themselves when they're getting into purchasing

9:02

something like that? Um, that's

9:04

where I have a really hard time is look,

9:07

I mean it's not their fault that

9:09

people aren't reading the, the

9:12

small print. Uh , that,

9:14

that people are a little bit , uh,

9:17

quick into purchasing something.

9:20

Uh, they don't know exactly what they're getting into. But

9:22

I think we all fall prey to that. And really

9:24

that's what the CFPB was created

9:27

for in the first place. Cuz

9:29

the CFPB was not a thing until 2010.

9:32

After the 2008 uh

9:35

, crash, the CFPB was

9:37

created to regulate

9:40

lending.

9:41

Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.

9:44

And I think because it gets broken down

9:47

into so many little payments and because

9:49

you don't have necessarily a

9:52

central place to put it all and

9:54

because there's so many options for

9:57

buy now, pay later companies, I

9:59

think consumers, it becomes a little too

10:01

easy to go, well it's

10:03

just a hundred dollars. Um , I

10:06

wanna pay a hundred dollars now and then I got three

10:08

more payments of a hundred dollars. And then they leave

10:10

that store, go online, go

10:12

to any one of these major retailers cause

10:14

they have 'em met Target they haven't at all these other

10:17

places. And then say,

10:20

well this is only 50 bucks and

10:23

I could do 50 now and I'll pay 50 later.

10:25

And they do that at a

10:27

couple different stores. Now they're looking at,

10:30

you know, 50 plus, a hundred plus

10:32

another a hundred, you know, three, $400

10:34

that they just signed up for four

10:36

more payments of that.

10:37

Well I would imagine that this really got big

10:40

too during the , the , uh, pandemic,

10:43

right? I mean people are sitting at home, they're kind

10:45

of bored or they've been laid off. Uh

10:48

, you know, there's a number of reasons that I would imagine that

10:50

this made it just so easy to be

10:52

able to buy at home and, and get delivered.

10:54

Yeah. It exploded in use during

10:56

the pandemic. And I think part of that too, as

10:58

people like myself, I historically

11:01

preferred to shop in a brick and mortar experience.

11:04

And part of that was because it helped me limit

11:06

what I could buy because

11:08

I <laugh> , this is actually a true story. I

11:10

was in a world market and I

11:13

somehow had added like multiple rugs,

11:16

like furniture to my cart. It

11:18

didn't fit in my car <laugh> . So

11:21

now when I go shopping at

11:23

a brick and mortar store, I'm very aware

11:25

how much can I carry, how much can

11:27

fit in my car?

11:29

Not Only can I afford it, but can I actually

11:31

physically get it home.

11:32

Exactly. So I was like that

11:34

person in the parking lot, like trying to figure out how to

11:37

open that little , um, back part.

11:39

Oh the midle?

11:39

To like shove

11:42

the rug all the way through as much as I

11:44

could. But I mean, I

11:46

got it home, It worked, it was fine, but

11:48

I've also been in line waiting to try on

11:51

stuff in a dressing room and I've just literally

11:53

just been holding something and I didn't

11:55

wanna hold it anymore, so I put it back. But

11:58

when I'm shopping on Amazon or Etsy

12:00

or anything online, that cart is

12:02

doing all the holding for me and sometimes I forget.

12:04

Never gets full .

12:04

what I've added. Yeah. Never gets full. It

12:07

even reminds me, Hey, by the w ay, you left this

12:09

in the c art

12:10

There , got some things in here. Did you mean to check out

12:12

<laugh> ? Yeah,

12:13

But I think like, it,

12:16

it just kept driving this whole like

12:18

spend, spend, spend. Because you can break it

12:20

down and there was, it

12:23

didn't seem like there was gonna be any sort of penalty.

12:25

There is, but it didn't seem like it.

12:30

I think now that it started to

12:33

affect lenders and,

12:36

and some lenders are lending

12:38

more than they should because they can't see

12:41

how much in fact people owe. Cause

12:43

it doesn't pop up on the credit reports. I

12:45

think that's going to trigger

12:48

new regulations to that industry

12:50

because now all of a sudden the big banks, all

12:52

the lenders are on board with, I

12:54

don't know if this is good for me, you know, this could

12:57

really mess us up. And

13:00

um , I'm , I think we should , uh, take a look at those

13:02

guys over there. And I think that's gonna push

13:04

the, the envelope here to, to

13:06

get more regulation on some of this, which

13:08

might not be a bad thing for consumers. Well

13:11

It's interesting because, you know, like for

13:13

instance, Amazon right? Makes things so

13:15

easy to return if

13:17

you don't, you know, you don't for

13:19

some reason you don't need it, it doesn't fit or whatever it

13:21

is. It's like Costco, even though Costco's

13:24

brick and mortar and you can order it online, but it's,

13:26

they make it very easy to return the products.

13:29

Uh, but with this, it seems the buy

13:31

now pay later stuff, you know, how

13:33

much money are , are they gonna end up

13:35

losing when people are returning

13:38

that? Cause they only, what you pay a small

13:40

what , one quarter probably of the

13:43

total cost , uh, like a down payment.

13:46

Um , and then you make those four , you make

13:48

those four installments. But then what if

13:50

somebody returns it? How do you get, I

13:52

mean, do they return your money right away? How

13:54

does that work? It seems to me, and

13:57

this wasn't by now pay later, I paid a

13:59

different way for that Sheen

14:01

or whatever it was. But still it's been a giant

14:04

pain. To return it,

14:06

I'd have to double check . But I'm, I think

14:08

it's a store by store basis.

14:10

Okay.

14:11

So every store or I

14:13

don't know , service or that allows you to split

14:16

up your payments through a buy

14:18

now pay later app. They pay to

14:20

offer that service. Like, so if somebody offers

14:23

after pay , they're paying after pay

14:25

in order to offer that to you.

14:26

Gotcha. Okay. So, and that actually

14:28

has to make it relat . I

14:31

I I would imagine that the

14:33

, those stores that allow those, that's

14:35

gotta be great for them. That's gotta boost sales.

14:38

Uh, and , and not affecting them

14:40

whatsoever except for paying a little bit off

14:43

the top to those apps.

14:45

I would assume it would be similar to offering

14:48

like credit card payments.

14:49

Yeah.

14:49

They pay like what, one to 2%.

14:51

mm -hmm . <affirmative>.

14:51

like processing fees that , so

14:53

I would assume it would be similar to that.

14:56

Yeah, that would , that would completely

14:58

make sense.

15:00

But I do think like there

15:03

are people who have benefited from this. They

15:05

know exactly how to budget their money.

15:07

They know how to split up

15:09

these payments in a way that works for them. And

15:11

I think that's great. But I think

15:13

that overall, generally this has

15:16

been a very toxic

15:21

like system.

15:23

Well,

15:23

and I think it's encourag

15:25

You think that people, do you think that these companies are

15:27

, um, that they're,

15:30

that they're actually predatory

15:33

tactics? I mean, is this something that

15:35

you think that they're going

15:38

after specific , um,

15:40

communities and that kind

15:42

of thing?

15:44

I mean, personally I do. And

15:46

I'll tell you the reason why I feel that way

15:48

is because as a millennial

15:50

I am not getting marketed with

15:53

buy now , pay later , like Generation Z is

15:55

at all. Um, additionally,

15:58

part of that ties into fast fashion.

16:01

So I make

16:03

a conscious choice not to participate

16:05

in fast fashion because of the environmental

16:08

harm.

16:09

I didn't , didn't even know what fast fashion was until

16:11

I read your article.

16:13

<laugh> .

16:13

Yeah. So fast fashion is basically

16:15

like printing, producing clothes

16:18

as cheaply as possible. Using as

16:21

like cheap materials, cheap dyes.

16:23

And a lot of that involves a lot of water

16:25

waste, a lot of water pollution. Just

16:28

a lot of, like, you've seen those pictures of

16:30

those toxic mounds of trash

16:33

in the Pacific or.

16:35

That's gross.

16:36

Anything like that. There's a hu like I

16:38

think the fashion industry is like the biggest

16:40

polluter in the world or one of the biggest polluters

16:42

in the world.

16:43

Yeah.

16:43

You use cheap labor in far

16:45

away places and now you got shipping costs

16:48

and shipping.

16:49

Exactly. And so when

16:51

you have people buying clothes every

16:54

day and then they're just throwing them in the trash

16:56

can like, like seriously

16:58

like forget the financial impact of

17:00

that. Like what are you doing?

17:02

Right.

17:03

You bought a shirt for $6 and

17:05

you throw it away in the trash, Can you buy another one? That

17:07

doesn't make any sense. And I think like

17:09

that kind of , uh, marketing

17:12

to make that a , a lifestyle that see

17:14

like, it's not sustainable, but they're

17:16

marketing it in a way that it does sound sustainable

17:19

and strip away the environment

17:22

stuff . Just focus on finance , financial

17:24

side of it. How are you going to be able to afford

17:27

buying a new $6 shirt every

17:29

day for the rest of your life?

17:29

It makes no sense . Oh yeah. That makes no sense

17:32

to me at all. And I , I didn't

17:34

know I , you know, shoot,

17:37

it wasn't until Felipe mentioned the name

17:39

of that company, I had no idea what my daughter

17:41

was buying. And that, you know, that says,

17:43

I hope that doesn't say a lot about the parenting

17:45

, uh, that I am, but I , uh, unfortunately,

17:48

you know, I'm, I'm a now.

17:50

You're not a fashion guy.

17:51

Father and I'm not a fashion , I never bought clothes

17:53

for my kids. My , my wife did all

17:55

that. So now I'm doing that.

17:57

But my kids are also very aware of fashion themselves.

18:01

Uh , they are , well my daughter is, my son

18:04

doesn't give a hoot about what he

18:06

wears. Um, thank goodness

18:08

for private school cuz he doesn't have to be told . He

18:10

, he , he's told what to wear so that,

18:12

that's not , that's a good thing for him. But

18:15

my daughter, she knew

18:17

right where to go and bought all these tops. And I'm like, Oh, okay,

18:19

well that's a pretty good deal. I had no idea.

18:22

And I bet you.

18:22

what it was,

18:23

There was some connection to social media

18:25

like TikTok or Instagram.

18:27

Oh guaranteed.

18:27

Or Snapchat . So

18:29

that's kind of like ,

18:30

Not TikTok, I don't allow her to be on it, but,

18:32

But I've heard of there , I've heard

18:34

that there's people on TikTok who literally just do

18:37

, um, like Sheen or whatever,

18:39

trys and like, this is what I ordered today.

18:42

And so

18:43

Influencers quote unquote

18:45

, that's a

18:47

fact. I mean I gar I almost guarantee

18:49

it , uh, that that's exactly, in fact I do

18:52

guarantee it. That's exactly where the

18:54

young people are getting everything. TikTok

18:56

uh , it's, it's been talked about.

18:59

I mean more, more people, especially

19:01

the younger generation uses that technology. But

19:03

even , uh, even uh , US

19:06

Gen Xers are getting into

19:08

the mix , uh, a bit. The

19:10

millennials, I mean, it's probably not

19:12

as high concentrated of purchases

19:15

through those apps, but it's

19:17

extraordinarily high and they're as

19:19

almost as much as when you just

19:21

googling information and buying things off , uh,

19:23

when you're looking for different stores

19:26

, uh, through Google or different products.

19:29

Oh yeah. And I even actually get emails from

19:31

stores that I shop at. Like by the way, we're

19:33

, we're now offering after pay or we

19:35

offer this now,

19:37

Different ways to get 'em in the store. Any

19:39

way to get somebody in the store, whether it's virtually

19:41

Sarah said it's a , it's a hot topic

19:44

in her Target group on Facebook, people

19:46

talking about the after pays and sometimes

19:48

how great it was, sometimes how detrimental

19:51

it has been. Uh ,

19:53

Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait. Sarah's in a Target

19:55

group?

19:56

Yeah. On Facebook. They talk to everything

19:58

Target

19:58

What's a target group? Everything Target really. Department

20:00

store, Target.

20:01

Yeah. Target.

20:02

She is in a Facebook target group.

20:04

Uhhuh .

20:04

Oh, can you get Sarah on this please?

20:07

I would love to sit and talk to her .

20:09

We might have to do an episode on Target group .

20:11

Yeah, I want.

20:11

On Facebook groups.

20:13

I <laugh> that

20:15

just makes me laugh.

20:15

But see that's , that's , that's what I'm talking about. If

20:18

you see something in this, this is why I can't

20:20

be in this kind of group cuz I would go immediately buy it.

20:22

But if somebody shows you something really cool

20:24

and then you wanna go buy it, but

20:26

they're offering after pay , so you're like, well I can't

20:28

really make it in my budget, but if

20:31

I do this then I can make it work. Well,

20:34

what happens if you run into an emergency? Because

20:36

if anybody has paid off debt before, you

20:38

likely know that if you have a plan for

20:41

your money and it requires everything

20:43

to go smoothly as possible, it's

20:45

probably not gonna work.

20:46

Yeah, Yeah . I mean, look, like

20:48

you mentioned earlier, there , there are people

20:50

that this is works wonderfully for

20:53

and those are the people that are ver they're

20:55

, they're naturally , um,

20:58

they're organized. Uh

21:00

, they, they, they are very good with

21:02

their money, but you know, there's, there's always

21:05

gonna be people that aren't. Um,

21:07

and, and if I would tell you like, you

21:09

know, this has been around for a long time. This isn't

21:11

a new thing, it's just a different type. It's

21:14

when you open up a credit card account at

21:16

Best Buy, let's say, and you're

21:19

gonna buy electronics and it'll

21:21

say, you know, you can buy this

21:23

product. Um, and it's 24

21:26

months interest free . If

21:28

you pay it off in 24 months, then it's

21:30

like cash. Well, good for

21:32

you. If you are organized enough

21:35

to do that and you know that you

21:37

have the money to do that. Bottom

21:39

line is anybody would tell

21:41

you who works in finance that if

21:45

you can't afford it, don't

21:48

buy it. And obviously that's when

21:50

we're not talking about necessarily a

21:52

vehicle which you need to get around in. We're

21:54

not talking about a house that , um, typically

21:57

will go up in value.

22:00

Uh , but when it comes to everyday

22:02

things, everyday

22:05

uses clothing, those kinds

22:08

of things, if

22:11

maybe you shouldn't buy the shirt, if

22:13

you can't pay for it right

22:15

off the top. I mean, that just

22:18

kind of seems like common sense to me

22:21

When I actually have a separate blog from my fashionistas,

22:24

my fellow fashionistas I should say.

22:25

Okay.

22:26

And I have tips from my style

22:28

expert who is a financial

22:31

genius. And so there's certain

22:33

things you can do. So like fast fashion for

22:35

example is very trendy. It's very,

22:38

it's in style for like two weeks, two

22:41

to four weeks. <laugh> . That's fast fashion. That's

22:43

why we include the word fast.

22:44

Wow.

22:44

So if you're gonna buy something

22:46

like this shirt that I'm wearing, you can't see

22:48

it in the audio, but you guys can see it.

22:51

I have had this shirt for

22:53

eight years. I wore this the first date that

22:55

I ever had with my husband.

22:57

Wow.

22:57

And it, it's from

22:59

Los Angeles, it's handmade, but

23:03

it was $88 from Macy's when

23:05

I bought it eight years ago. And it sounded like

23:07

a ton of money to spend on just like

23:10

a black scoop neck shirt

23:12

long sleeve shirt. But it has lasted

23:14

me so long that

23:16

like .

23:16

Get what you're paid for.

23:18

Exactly. I think that that's kind

23:20

of where I,

23:22

What other cliche we want penny wise and

23:24

dollar foolish. What else can we pull out

23:26

<laugh> ? No, but I think it sounds like

23:28

it's obvious, but it's true. Like

23:30

if you're somebody who's an emotional spender

23:33

like myself, buy

23:35

now, pay later is probably something that's gonna get

23:37

you in trouble. But if you're somebody who is very

23:39

on top of your budgeting

23:42

and you know exactly how much

23:44

money you have in you have some sort of cushion, this

23:46

might be the perfect opportunity for you

23:48

to buy a little treat yourself gift or

23:51

something.

23:51

Right. Yeah. I mean that's why, you

23:53

know, I was, I was not a big fan of the CFPB

23:56

when it was created. I, I don't

23:58

like necessarily regulation, although

24:00

I do think that

24:04

there needs to be some parameters

24:06

that aren't predatory. But for the most part, we

24:08

can't call companies predatory just

24:11

because there are people that just can't

24:13

say no, that

24:15

can't say no to the product. Um

24:18

, now if there are practices where

24:20

it's very difficult to return , uh,

24:23

something, if it's something that

24:25

there you can't find anywhere to stop

24:27

, uh, your, your payments

24:29

, uh, or to cancel , uh,

24:32

that, okay, that's a whole different story. That's something

24:34

that we need to look at. Um, but

24:40

buy now, pay later just, I mean

24:42

just in the, just in the

24:44

name of it, it makes me, I

24:47

would be cautious, but

24:51

then again, I guess I do this for a living and

24:53

we hear all kinds of horror stories and

24:55

we know the things that people get themselves into

24:57

financially the trouble that they

24:59

get into. So we're always a

25:01

little bit worried about that. But

25:04

I mean, the days of us financial

25:06

professionals saying, you know,

25:08

hold onto your cash and only use the

25:10

cash you spent. That's not, that's

25:14

great in theory. But we,

25:16

we , we live in an electronic age where

25:19

just yesterday I was

25:21

, uh, oh, Sunday I

25:23

was going to pick up wings for this non

25:26

shaky , shaky board party that we were watching

25:28

for football and baseball. And

25:32

they didn't take cash. They

25:34

were a cashless retail store.

25:37

Yeah.

25:37

I'm like, wow, all right . So

25:40

if I don't have cash, I gotta use my debit card. But

25:42

at the same time, we now have

25:44

to look at cash in a different definition. It's

25:46

gotta be how much is in your bank account. And

25:49

that's really what it is.

25:51

Yeah, that's a good way to put

25:53

it. Cause you're right, there's so many rules that

25:55

have changed.

25:56

Yeah,

25:57

like cash,

25:58

I was on

25:59

Cash is king

26:00

Cash ,

26:00

Right? <laugh> ? Yes it is . But they mean that

26:02

in a different way. Right? That doesn't mean under your pillow.

26:04

That means what you have liquid.

26:07

So if you, when you hear, if

26:09

you, this is why I say if , if

26:11

I can't, if I don't have the

26:13

$50 to buy the

26:16

shirt I want, I'm definitely not

26:18

gonna go say, well then I'm

26:20

gonna spend 13.50

26:23

over the next three months so I can afford that

26:26

shirt. It just That's

26:29

right . I can wait.

26:31

Cash is different. You know, we did

26:33

the whole episode on cashless venues and

26:35

things like that.

26:36

Yeah.

26:36

But there was a tweet going viral I

26:38

think Monday that um, someone

26:41

said like, what would you do if

26:43

you had a hundred thousand dollars cash? And

26:46

everyone was in there commenting and the little

26:48

smart alec in me went in there and said,

26:51

What? Put it in the bank. That's a lot of money to

26:53

be walking around with in your pocket. You , you

26:55

don't wanna drop that.

26:56

Yeah.

26:56

Because it , it's still cash.

26:59

If it's in your, I mean if you're

27:01

holding actual physical money or if you

27:03

put in your bank account and you use your debit card, you

27:05

could still then go do whatever it is that all the

27:07

other people were Saying.

27:08

That's right. And you have some for

27:10

,

27:10

there's some protection.

27:11

Protection,

27:12

your safety.

27:12

Yes.

27:12

Your money's not, you know, you're not gonna drop

27:14

it and lose it or have

27:17

it stolen from you. Right.

27:18

Cause when it's gone, it's gone.

27:20

Yeah . So you , you still cash. I

27:23

I I think of debit cards as

27:25

it

27:25

Is cash. That's the way I think of it now. It

27:28

totally is. It's Just , it's just your money. You

27:30

know , it's just an electronic form of your cash.

27:32

Right. A hundred percent. I mean you've

27:34

gotta think of everything being in cash and whether it's

27:37

pay now , pay later, a credit card , uh,

27:40

whatever it is that you're using, whatever

27:42

tool, whatever financial tool that

27:44

you're using needs to be thought

27:46

of as being used wi as cash. And

27:49

if you do that, then you're gonna, you're

27:52

gonna be in decent shape. And there's gonna be a lot

27:54

of people that use credit cards to their advantage

27:56

because there's , there , there can be very advantageous

27:59

to the different types of , uh, miles.

28:02

You can get cash back , all kinds

28:05

of incentives and if you use it correctly,

28:07

those can be very powerful. But

28:09

the cha but most people aren't. And that's why these,

28:11

the credit industry and banks make

28:14

a ton of money and

28:16

retailers aren't gonna offer something if they're not

28:18

gonna make money. The retailers

28:21

like these apps, they like technology cuz

28:23

what does their bottom line sell? And

28:25

if they have any different way they

28:27

can get people to buy their products, why

28:30

not? And if I were in business, I guess I

28:32

would do the same thing because for me, I'm

28:35

just saying is there a sale or not?

28:38

I don't blame the retailers. They're just

28:40

offering you the convenience of paying you in another

28:42

form. You know, although

28:46

falling in debt, whether you did

28:48

the buy now pay later or someone did an

28:51

old school credit card swipe, they're

28:53

still falling in debt if they can't afford it. Right

28:55

. So then it just becomes onto the consumer

28:57

of which kind of debt I wanna fall into.

28:59

Correct.

29:00

As a retailer,

29:01

Just think about what you just said. What kind of

29:03

debt do I want to fall into?

29:04

That's what it is really.

29:05

I Know.

29:06

It's, they could swipe their credit card or they could

29:08

say, Oh I'll do this. Buy now, pay

29:11

later because it's interest free

29:12

And in their mind. And if

29:13

You do it right, yes,

29:15

it could be.

29:16

But if you do credit card, right? It

29:18

could be,

29:20

although you might get more time to pay

29:22

it off with the buy now, pay later. If

29:24

it's like two weeks, four payments, the

29:27

first one there on the spot, then two

29:29

weeks, then two weeks. Technically you Could,

29:30

let me ask you this, what if you did buy

29:32

now pay later 12

29:35

different purchases in a month?

29:37

Oh would get it Overwhelming and

29:39

Yeah . Wouldn't it? Yeah

29:41

, I think so.

29:42

Well I wouldn't use it, but I'm just saying I

29:45

think that's part of the problem is because you're thinking

29:47

I only have to make this one payment and

29:49

then two weeks later you got that payment and

29:51

if you're still using it two weeks from now,

29:54

now you're overlapping.

29:55

It's no

29:56

One payment with the next payment, with

29:58

the next payment. You might be overlapping three

30:01

or four different cycles of purchases

30:04

by the time you get in and you just get,

30:06

now you don't have enough money to make the next purchase

30:07

I find it overwhelming getting all my bills paid.

30:10

Not that I can't financially just

30:12

that I remember everything. I literally have to have my spreadsheet

30:14

open every day to

30:17

make sure that something gets paid on time. And

30:19

that sounds, people are probably

30:21

like, Hey Chase, what are you, what's , what's the big deal? I

30:24

haven't done it in 19

30:27

years that I was with Keri. She

30:29

was the bill payer . I knew what we were

30:31

spending, but I didn't physically

30:33

pay the bills. Now I

30:36

do. And oh

30:38

my gosh, sometimes it's overwhelming. I

30:40

can see why people forget.

30:43

It really can freaks

30:46

me Out.

30:46

I have to have a spreadsheet too. I have to

30:48

like go down and like make sure I paid everything.

30:51

And that's why like when you're saying like splitting

30:53

up the payments, even for just one, I'd

30:55

be like, well is this the third payment, the

30:58

fourth installment, Did they charge me another like additional

31:00

installment?

31:00

Right?

31:01

Right.

31:01

We have like 12. I'm, I

31:04

can't, I can't

31:06

<laugh> I'm telling you, I'm I am a hundred

31:08

percent with you. It it is,

31:10

it's a bit nuts. Uh,

31:13

it it's it's a lot nuts. Uh, it's

31:15

, it's , you guys are gonna laugh at this. Um,

31:17

but uh, where,

31:20

where to go. Um, can

31:24

you guys see that?

31:26

Yeah.

31:27

Okay.

31:27

Yeah.

31:30

Okay. You can see this is what I

31:32

have to go off of and I have a lot of things

31:34

on autopay and I know how

31:36

much exactly that's going into those. But then I have the

31:38

certain ones that have to be paid online that

31:41

I have to go to and physically get 'em in by the certain

31:43

dates. This is open every single

31:45

day. You say I have things yellowed off <laugh>

31:47

. I have since my wife passed, I have

31:49

had to become extraordinarily

31:51

organized otherwise things

31:54

just don't happen. Um , and

31:56

that buy now pay later. If I ever had

31:59

to do that, that I don't know what I would do. Cause

32:01

I would, I would get so.

32:03

Start another spreadsheet.

32:03

Oh, I don't want

32:03

Just for that <laugh>

32:05

Spreadsheets. Give me the the , Ah,

32:09

you can start another spreadsheet. <laugh>

32:12

<laugh> , come on, it

32:15

is nuts.

32:15

Or add another tab to the one you put .

32:17

And the last thing I want is to create

32:19

another account with another password. I

32:23

don't want any more of those. I've had to, you

32:25

guys have no idea, I've had to close so

32:28

many apps that Keri it opened and that

32:30

she shared with me. Like we download and I'd

32:33

use her account or whatever because as a family,

32:35

why have five separate accounts? And if

32:37

you're.

32:37

Right ,

32:37

uh , like for instance just a Chick-fil-A app, right? You

32:40

go to Chick-fil-A with the kids, you

32:42

use the app, you build these reward

32:44

points, you get all these things and if Carrie and

32:47

I had separate ones, we would be that

32:49

we wouldn't be building the same amount,

32:51

Separate rewards.

32:51

Right? We would . Right . So but

32:53

now that Keri's pa all the things that

32:55

were in her name, you I , you should see it . I've had to

32:57

go through and change all these things, all

33:00

the payment methods, all I mean,

33:02

and then, and that's just the easy , that's just the easy

33:04

stuff, right? Then it's,

33:08

it's been mindbogglingly

33:10

difficult to handle. Not

33:12

to mention the emotional side of it where

33:15

every time you're talking to somebody, you gotta hear, Sir

33:18

, first of all sir, we'd like to, you

33:20

know, give our condolences and you get that for

33:22

the 500th time and it's just going whatever.

33:24

Thank you, I appreciate that. Can

33:26

you just fix the Dan Dang account? That's

33:29

why these pay now do all that kind of stuff. It's,

33:32

I can see why people,

33:34

the older generation, like our parents just

33:38

are finally just , they're just saying, no, I

33:40

can't keep up with this crap. Cuz you

33:42

, especially those that aren't using computers,

33:45

could you imagine if they were trying to write this all down on a

33:47

piece of paper, like my dad's law pad <laugh>

33:50

, He's No

33:52

way he'd be lost. Crazy.

33:55

It's just sad that there are some seniors

33:57

that have to use it for

33:59

your groceries right now. I

34:01

Yeah,

34:02

I'm surprised they'd do it at grocery stores.

34:04

Like I get why the

34:06

grocery store would do it, but can imagine

34:09

You're Paying, paying . Can you imagine? But some people use

34:11

the credit cards. I guess it's the same thing. You're

34:14

buying food, you eat it that week and

34:17

you're paying for it four months, five months later, I guess. You

34:19

know , same thing with a restaurant. Use

34:22

a credit card, Put it down .

34:23

Can you use by now pay later to pay off

34:25

a Tab?

34:25

I would bet not, but I bet

34:27

maybe, maybe. I Don't know .

34:29

It's a matter of time.

34:30

Probably. That's a good question.

34:33

That kinda kinda sounds like a different kind of

34:35

debt

34:35

<laugh> , so Yeah, it sounds terrible to

34:37

Me . <laugh> ,

34:39

That's, that's no good. Well, look

34:42

, um, I I , I hope

34:44

it'll be interesting to see what the CFPB

34:47

comes up with on this, but I , as

34:49

I would tell any of our listeners, just

34:52

be organized when you're making payments, when you're making

34:55

purchases like that. Um , it all sounds

34:57

good when you're laying in bed late at night and

34:59

you know, maybe you've had a couple cocktails and that's

35:01

really fun. Uh , be

35:03

careful what you get involved in and what you get , uh,

35:06

what you click. Yes

35:09

or, you know , submit. Uh , it

35:11

can get you in a lot of , a lot

35:13

of issues. Um , with that like

35:16

us, submit that, submit that

35:18

you like us, give us a five star review and

35:21

uh , we'll see you next week.