0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts,

0:02

radio, news, music

0:05

and more. Being

0:13

alone and being together on Life

0:15

Matters today. Hello, Hilary Harper here,

0:17

coming to you from Wurundjeri country.

0:19

If a friend is driving you mad, is it

0:22

better to cut them loose or

0:24

to work on resolving the issue? There's

0:26

been a shift in recent years

0:28

towards ditching mediocre friendships in the

0:30

name of self-care. But research

0:32

shows this might not be as good

0:34

for our wellbeing as we think. We'll

0:36

see if we can find the sweet

0:39

spot. But first, one strategy for beating

0:41

loneliness, learning to love our own company.

0:49

If you think about spending time alone, does

0:51

it fill you with joy or dread? Whether

0:54

solitude comes naturally to you or not,

0:56

there might be benefits in being alone

0:59

from time to time. And aloneness, of

1:01

course, need not equal loneliness. We'll

1:03

find out where that dividing line is soon. But

1:06

tell me, how have you come to love

1:08

your own company? What do you do when

1:10

you have time to yourself? I found myself

1:12

on the weekend with a couple of spare

1:14

hours and I baked a complicated recipe. It

1:17

was so good. So much deep

1:19

focus possible without other people around. I'd love

1:22

to hear what you get up to when

1:24

you're alone and how well you tolerate time

1:26

by yourself. Someone who knows

1:28

a lot about spending time alone is

1:30

Dr. Kate Grarock. She's an ecologist and

1:32

a hiker. But you may know

1:35

her from season one of Alone Australia, where

1:37

she spent 22 days deep in

1:39

the Tasmanian forest, completely on her own.

1:41

Kate, welcome to Life Matters. Thanks for

1:43

having me on. Before you appeared

1:46

on Alone, you were already a fairly seasoned

1:48

solo hiker. When and how did

1:50

that start? I think

1:52

it just started out of necessity, I guess, just

1:54

wanting to get outdoors more and not having to

1:56

rely on friends and their busy lives and also

1:59

the beauty. that comes from spending time outdoors

2:01

and pushing your boundaries and learning

2:03

more about yourself. So was being

2:05

alone one of your boundaries or was it something that's always

2:08

come naturally to you? No, definitely not

2:10

come naturally. I love people.

2:12

I love the distraction of people and

2:14

I think that makes me the perfect

2:16

person to spend time outdoors on my

2:18

own and reflect and push

2:22

through those uncomfortable moments. Well, what

2:24

was it like when you first started the

2:26

hiking solo, hiking alone? What was

2:29

that like pushing through that discomfort? It

2:32

was challenging, really challenging and sometimes you just

2:34

had to jump to distractions of say like

2:36

an audio book or something like that to

2:38

help me just

2:40

pass the quiet. But

2:43

I quickly realized the

2:46

absolute benefits and self,

2:50

just knowing myself and feeling confidence in

2:52

myself and trusting myself. I was bringing

2:54

it from my hiking into every other

2:56

aspect of my life and

2:58

it was really beneficial. That's interesting. So

3:01

you did a bit of work drilling down

3:03

into why you felt that discomfort. What do you

3:05

think it was about for you? I

3:08

think it's the modern life

3:10

is we're surrounded by

3:12

people whether we've got them on our phone

3:14

to text them or sending

3:17

us emails and it

3:19

does feel uncomfortable to disengage from

3:21

that process but it's absolutely wonderful

3:23

as well. And is

3:25

it something too about having to

3:27

sit with yourself and your feelings?

3:30

Absolutely. Absolutely. And

3:32

you know, it's not easy sometimes, you know, but

3:35

it gives you that time to step

3:38

away from the distractions of everything

3:40

in our modern life and

3:42

reflect in how you're living your life and certain

3:46

things and how you could do that better. I

3:48

find it interesting that you talked about the

3:50

distraction of people before and you also

3:52

said you had the distraction of an

3:54

audiobook whereas some people would say that

3:57

is an enriching beautiful moment and

3:59

not a distraction. at all. What

4:02

was your thought there that that was something

4:04

that was taking you away from some

4:07

deeper reflection? Absolutely. Like, you know,

4:09

on the line, you don't get

4:11

any of those, a book or

4:13

a podcast. And that

4:16

was a very different experience to my

4:18

hiking where I can just, okay,

4:20

I'm a bit bored here and I've done a bit

4:22

of thinking about life and I'm done with that now.

4:24

I want to just sort of, you know, drift off

4:26

to sleep listening to, you know, an audio book and

4:30

certainly on the line, you couldn't do that. And

4:32

that's a, I guess, a

4:34

very big difference to my time out there

4:36

versus my hiking. And it is lovely

4:38

to have that distraction when you're

4:41

done with the thinking. Yes.

4:43

Well, what was it

4:45

like when you came to terms with the

4:47

reality of being out there for a loan? Was

4:50

it a shock, how different it

4:52

was to just the hiking? Yeah,

4:54

extremely. And I mean, there's many, many

4:56

elements to that. Like, excuse me, you

4:58

know, you filming yourself and, and you're,

5:00

you know, you calorie deficient, I think,

5:02

you know, in reflection, that's a huge,

5:04

has a huge impact on your mood.

5:06

You know, you're effectively slowly starving, even

5:08

if you're collecting food well, you're still

5:10

not pulling in 2000 calories a day.

5:14

So that obviously puts a shade

5:16

on top of everything. But yeah,

5:19

it was a very different experience.

5:21

It was amazing to have

5:23

experienced it. Would I be in a rush

5:25

to do it again? I don't know. But

5:29

yeah, even like, no, now my solo hiking is

5:31

sometimes I'll just jump easily to, oh yeah, let's

5:33

take a friend, you know, and I'm not scared

5:35

of the solo hiking, but it does bring up

5:38

some, some hard emotions. Well,

5:40

yeah. I wondered when you were in

5:42

the Tasmanian forest, were you feeling lonely

5:46

or just isolated or kind

5:48

of self sufficient? Because there are

5:50

different ways of being alone out there.

5:53

Yeah, yeah, I definitely wasn't lonely as

5:55

such. I think in

5:57

your interview sort of hit it a bit harder. I felt

5:59

more lonely. when I lived in a big city and

6:01

I was surrounded by people without having a proper connection.

6:05

But out there I guess I felt

6:07

uncomfortable in terms of the

6:09

lack of purpose and that sounds silly

6:12

because my purpose was to survive, my

6:14

purpose was to shoot a television show.

6:17

But it did feel quite pointless to me out

6:19

there. I think that was my

6:21

biggest hardship besides missing

6:24

family obviously. Oh yeah,

6:26

sometimes it's about the particular kinds of

6:28

connections that are absent isn't it? Yeah,

6:31

it's really hard for me to be

6:33

out there for that long. We're

6:35

speaking with Dr Kate Grarock who you might

6:37

remember from season 1 of Alone Australia. 22

6:40

days in a forest by yourself with just you

6:42

and a video camera would be a

6:44

very very tough experience. Tell us

6:46

how you deal with Alone time. If one

6:48

person says you're never alone, if you've got

6:50

a book I second that and

6:52

it also makes me quiver inside with horror, the

6:55

idea of being in the Tasmanian forest without a

6:57

book. And another one from

6:59

Jackie, I spent a week on my own

7:01

after Christmas just me and the dog in

7:03

a house in Dalesford, so good, took a

7:05

cookbook with me and I use writing stints

7:07

she says in inverted colours as an excuse

7:10

to go away solo a number of times

7:12

every year. Jackie, I hope your significant others

7:14

not hearing this and thinking oh writing stints

7:16

in inverted colours, is that what's going on?

7:20

Kate, just as in whether you felt

7:23

kind of drawn to trying to

7:26

create bonds with wildlife because

7:29

Jackie was saying having the dog around is a

7:31

lovely thing, did you try and find a connection

7:34

where there wasn't a human one? Absolutely,

7:37

I'm an eight year old girl thrown through anyway

7:39

and there's this cute little possum family that lived

7:42

in a tree behind my shelter and I'd

7:44

get joy every night when I'd hear them come

7:46

out and they're little chatting and I'd be like

7:48

hey, hey, come on. And

7:52

I think obviously there were

7:55

certain animals that we were allowed to

7:57

hunt and eat and I knew for my... emotional

8:00

well-being it was better off me not eating

8:02

them and having them as I guess like

8:04

company and friends because I think the

8:08

the the act of like say killing a

8:10

wallaby or something would have I think done

8:12

more harm to my emotional

8:15

Well-being than my you know physical

8:17

nourishment. That's really interesting Well,

8:20

did you come up with any strategies

8:22

for pushing through that discomfort up

8:24

to the point where you decided it was time to end

8:26

it What was the ways that

8:28

you you kept yourself occupied and saying I

8:31

guess um, you know, I went into the experience

8:33

wanting to push my limits

8:35

my personal limits and you know I guess before you

8:37

go in and have that experience you have this big

8:40

bravado of I have 60 days or something like that

8:42

and then You know quite quickly when you saw the

8:44

when I saw the environment that I was in yeah,

8:47

I realize it was probably gonna cut a bit short and

8:50

I mean I just tried I

8:53

guess better my environment every day in terms of

8:55

you know Making my my life a little bit

8:57

more comfortable whether it be looking for different bush

8:59

plants or you know, I found a

9:02

tree that I could use the leaves to create soap, you

9:04

know, so I could stay clean and That

9:06

really helped me sort of trying to make my day

9:08

a little bit better But

9:11

yeah, it was it was hard. There's like, you

9:13

know 14 hours of darkness at night and it

9:16

was bitterly cold You know middle of winter

9:19

And you know one can sleep for 14 hours certainly

9:22

not on like moss and twigs and Yeah,

9:25

it was it was an interesting one to try

9:27

and find activities and each night I'd sort of try

9:29

and think of three activities to do each day and

9:31

I guess having a little bit of routine Yeah,

9:34

my day really helped so, you know you get

9:36

up you check the batteries and the cameras and

9:38

all that sort of whoo-ha and Wander down start

9:40

fishing and then yeah get into my three little

9:42

activities whatever they were whether it be like weave

9:45

a basket or Wash my

9:47

undies whatever it was, you know, it felt

9:49

good to have a little bit of routine Fascinating

9:52

text here from Frank Kate pre covert I

9:54

used to enjoy alone time a lot more

9:57

But the trauma of lockdowns and all the

9:59

associated loss of livelihood, family members, tribe

10:01

and friends changed that. The intense busyness

10:04

that's gripped Australia since the pandemic also

10:06

makes me yearn all the more for

10:08

face to face connection. How

10:11

has the experience of solitude, extreme

10:13

solitude for you Kate changed things

10:15

for you? Have you changed the

10:18

way you live now? Absolutely. I

10:20

mean it's changed my whole lens

10:22

of how I view the world. I think I see

10:25

more and more that the way I live my

10:27

life in the real world is too busy. You

10:29

know the emails and phone calls and deadlines

10:31

and time pressures and I see

10:33

like the modern world as

10:36

like one end of the spectrum of like too

10:38

busy, too intense, too hardcore and then the alone

10:40

experience is complete other end

10:42

of that spectrum and I'd like to try and

10:44

bring my life somewhere into the middle where I'm

10:47

not running around like a mad

10:49

person trying to get everything done. I

10:52

haven't had success in doing that yet but yeah

10:54

it's definitely something I'm trying. Yeah that would be

10:57

familiar to a lot of people. Kate thank

10:59

you so much for opening

11:01

a little window into what that was like for you

11:03

and I think it's resonating with other people too judging

11:05

by the text line. Great to chat to you today.

11:08

Thank you. Dr Kate Grarock who was

11:10

on season one of Alone Australia. She's

11:12

an ecologist and a hiker and

11:14

as you heard has done a lot of solo

11:17

hiking these days often prefers to take a friend.

11:19

Maybe just doesn't really need to be alone to the

11:22

extent that she was in Tasmania. This

11:25

interesting text as a counterpoint to the one from

11:27

Frank earlier about the scarring effect

11:29

of COVID once it says, I found

11:31

that COVID lockdown was a valuable time

11:33

for self-reflection and space from life's busyness.

11:35

FOMO was a thing of the past.

11:38

As an artist I cherish the quietness

11:40

of solitude and the space from social

11:42

interactions as valuable as this can be.

11:45

I strive to find a balance to find

11:47

the benefits of both. Tell

11:49

us what you think about the benefits

11:51

and drawbacks of solitude and perhaps the

11:54

context that leads to it being

11:56

either a benefit or a drawback. Let's

11:58

see if we can learn how to find that. that balance in

12:00

a practical day-to-day sense. Dr. Erica Penny

12:02

might have some clues. She's a clinical

12:05

psychologist and lecturer at the University of

12:07

Technology, Sydney. Erica, great to have you

12:09

on the show. Thanks, Hilary, great to

12:11

be here. Why do some of us

12:13

enjoy solitude and others really struggle? Is

12:15

it an innate personality thing? I

12:18

mean, I think there's multiple aspects to it.

12:20

I mean, I think we first have to

12:22

separate out loneliness, which

12:24

can be this really

12:26

subjective feeling of being

12:29

disconnected from solitude, which

12:31

can be quite a conscious choice. And then

12:33

I actually think of solitude not as disconnection,

12:35

but connection, just a different type of connection.

12:37

It's a connection with ourselves. It's

12:40

a connection with nature, with artistic pursuits.

12:42

So I think it's important to distinguish

12:44

those two. And

12:49

so I think there are different

12:51

temperament differences. We were all born

12:53

with slightly different quotas for how

12:56

much social connection that we need from others.

13:00

But I also think the environment shapes

13:02

us. And so in our modern environment

13:05

where there is

13:07

this sort of digital pacifier almost to

13:09

any feeling that we have, this slight

13:11

discomfort, slight boredom, we can instantly pick

13:13

up a phone, we can instantly turn

13:16

on the TV, we can instantly be

13:18

listening to things or distracting ourselves. I

13:21

think that's shaping even people who may

13:23

have a higher

13:25

temperament towards introversion or

13:27

being able to enjoy solitude,

13:29

shaping people out of it. So

13:31

I think it's important to kind

13:33

of talk about that difference between

13:36

how do we cultivate this type

13:38

of connection within solitude and

13:40

move away from that disconnection that

13:43

comes with loneliness. Is

13:45

there a benefit to solitude? Is it good for

13:47

us from time to time or is that gonna

13:49

depend so much on the context of your life

13:51

already and the quality of the

13:54

social connections that you do already have? Yeah,

13:57

I mean, I think again, it comes to that. Is it

13:59

a conscious? choice? Are you able

14:01

to choose connection when you need

14:03

it and be able to choose

14:05

solitude when you need it? People

14:07

who unfortunately might experience very chronic

14:09

loneliness where it doesn't feel like

14:11

it's a choice anymore, there are

14:13

negative health impacts to that. But

14:15

those who actually can choose solitude

14:17

in a way that connects them

14:20

with themselves, actually there's a

14:22

lot of health benefits around allowing

14:24

people to explore their thoughts and

14:26

values and goals, what's

14:29

important to them without external distractions. That's

14:31

really going to foster a lot

14:33

of self-reflection, growth, knowing who you

14:35

are. I mean I loved Kate's

14:37

example of that solo

14:40

hiking, giving you a sense

14:42

of your identity and confidence and

14:44

what's important to you. I

14:46

think that's really what can come from solitude. I

14:48

mean even one of

14:50

the people who texted in about being

14:52

artistic, there's a lot of evidence that

14:55

solitude is linked with more creative freedom,

14:58

more creative pursuits because there's

15:00

actually space for your mind

15:02

to wander without being constantly

15:04

stimulated or distracted by all

15:07

of our modern conveniences that

15:10

come in and kind of distract from

15:12

this more natural solitude state. There's

15:14

some fascinating texts on this, lots of people

15:17

telling us how they love to spend their

15:19

time alone. For example, Helene in Coffs Harbour,

15:21

I love being on my own, it gives

15:23

me peace and quiet, time to reflect, as

15:26

you said Erica, that self-reflection. She

15:28

says I use the time to spend time

15:30

in my garden, knit, paint and explore craft

15:32

projects and Colin in Marrickville says during the

15:34

big wet of 2022 I was house sitting

15:36

for a friend in regional

15:39

New South Wales and all the creeks went up and

15:41

stayed up for around 12 days and I was on my

15:43

own. I did get a little sick

15:45

of my own company but there were lots of good

15:47

books of which I read quite a few. Still, says

15:49

Colin, it would have been nice to have someone to

15:51

talk with about the books. So

15:53

again, there's that sense of balance and choice.

15:56

I was fascinated to Dr Erica Penny to

15:59

read about this. study that put people in a

16:01

room with nothing else but a machine that would give

16:03

them little electric shocks if they press the button.

16:05

People chose to do that more often than

16:07

not because they just didn't want to sit

16:09

still with their thoughts. Is

16:11

that partly about the context? If you're

16:13

hiking in nature, you might be less

16:16

likely to give yourself an electric shock perhaps.

16:19

Yeah. Again, I would

16:21

be so curious about if there

16:23

had been some opportunity to do

16:26

this study many years

16:28

ago before a lot of our digital

16:30

distractions have shaped the

16:32

way we think versus in more modern

16:35

times. I think sometimes people

16:37

do experience this sense of boredom that

16:39

they just need some stimulation. I just

16:41

need some stimulation that gives

16:43

me something to do, to think about,

16:45

to break this up. The

16:47

more I think that we can learn to tolerate

16:50

that discomfort of actually I'm just

16:52

going to sit here without something to do.

16:56

Even more over time, we start to

16:58

enjoy it. It is more difficult for

17:00

people to choose

17:02

solitude initially if that's not

17:04

a regular practice for them

17:06

because it's so easy to

17:09

get those neurochemical positive

17:11

hits from picking

17:13

up social media or something like that

17:15

instead. It can be more uncomfortable initially

17:17

to sit alone if you're not used

17:19

to it. The longer

17:21

someone does that, the more they usually

17:23

start to – as long as it's a

17:26

conscious choice, they can start to enjoy the

17:28

benefits of their mind wandering freely, not hafting

17:30

to have stimulation and doing something every minute

17:32

of the day. I love how

17:35

you talk about the little dopamine hit that we get

17:37

from interaction with others. How can

17:39

we change our own relationship with our

17:41

own company and try and get that

17:43

good feeling from just being by ourselves?

17:45

Yeah. I think this is where –

17:48

what do you feel comfortable doing on your

17:50

own? Some

17:53

people cultivate, let's say, a mindfulness or

17:56

a meditation practice because that gives them

17:58

a way of connecting with themselves. But

18:00

even if you're not a meditator, you know,

18:02

are you able to go traveling on your

18:04

own, you know, or something even smaller, go traveling out

18:07

to a national park and walking and coming back

18:09

that day? Are you able to take yourself out

18:11

for dinner or lunch? I mean, these are the

18:13

things I think we can do to remind

18:16

ourselves that we can have fun on our own.

18:18

You know, for a lot of people, that's not

18:20

a very familiar experience, so they shy away from

18:22

it. But it's not going to

18:24

become more familiar unless we start choosing, what do

18:26

I enjoy? And how do I start experimenting with

18:29

doing a little bit of that alone as well?

18:32

This text is key, I think, to

18:34

what you've been saying, Dr. Erica Penny.

18:36

I was thinking about this last night.

18:38

It says, I'm mostly good spending time

18:40

alone, but I'm single, no kids, no

18:42

family here, not many friends, and those

18:44

friends have other priorities. I work

18:47

for myself. With the cost of

18:49

living issues, I can't afford to go out

18:51

for my social connections. I'm alone way more

18:53

than I want. My life is small. So

18:56

even though I'm good at entertaining myself,

18:58

my aloneness has become very lonely. And

19:00

that speaks to what you were saying

19:02

about how much choice and agency we

19:04

feel we have in that situation. Also,

19:07

though, I'm wondering, Erica, how much stigma

19:09

there still is in our culture about

19:11

spending time alone, particularly if it's perceived

19:14

by us or others as loneliness. Absolutely.

19:17

I think that's one of the fears,

19:19

and I think some of the research

19:21

suggests that women feel this more than

19:23

men, but this fear of judgment and

19:26

critical thoughts or criticism from others. If I

19:29

go out to dinner, what's everyone going to

19:31

be thinking about me as they sit there

19:34

seeing me on my own? And

19:36

so I think it is this real

19:38

act of radical rebellion to try and

19:41

say, well, do I need to, whether

19:43

or not people are judging me, I

19:45

can't tell, I'm not a mind reader, but how

19:47

can I learn to sit with that so that

19:49

I can get the most out of

19:52

my life, so that we're

19:54

not held back from the things we

19:56

want to pursue because we don't have

19:58

someone to share it with

20:00

that particular day. Well you know what I can still go out and

20:02

do it. But how do I then

20:04

make this space to go and I'm going

20:07

to try not to think about

20:09

what other people think about it because if it

20:11

brings me joy actually I'm not going to care

20:13

what people I don't know think

20:15

about me in a day's time, six months time,

20:17

twelve months time. And if you're not

20:19

going to care what those people think in let's

20:22

say six months from now then I think it's

20:24

important to try and push back on some of

20:26

that internalized stigma that we have and say I

20:29

want to enjoy my life and if there

20:31

are times I can do that when I'm connecting

20:33

great and there are times that I'm going to

20:35

do that when I'm consciously choosing to

20:38

connect with myself. Yeah

20:40

I was really struck by something Annabelle Crabbe

20:42

said in a series that we're running at the

20:44

moment called Here's What I Know which you can find on

20:47

the ABC Listen App and up on our webpage. She

20:49

said you know people have to earn the right for

20:51

me to care what they think about me. And it

20:53

was such a powerful thing to think you know why

20:55

should I care what you have to say unless I

20:57

respect your opinion. Yeah. Wow

21:00

so many people texting in on this

21:02

and giving us their thoughts on solitude

21:04

and loneliness. Dr Erica Penny thanks so

21:06

much for being part of this discussion

21:08

it's obviously such a nerve.

21:10

Oh thank you both it's such an important area. Excellent

21:13

to air it a little bit. Dr Erica

21:15

Penny is a clinical psychologist and a lecturer

21:17

at the University of Technology Sydney. And you

21:19

heard earlier from Dr Kate Grarock who is

21:22

an ecologist who was also a participant on

21:24

the first season of Alone Australia. It's back

21:26

for season two right now you can stream

21:28

it on SBS On Demand. Mark

21:31

says I remember Kate she was very clear

21:33

about why she called time on

21:35

her stint on Alone. She was very strong mentally

21:37

very impressed with her then and hearing

21:40

her now again impressed. Thank you Mark.

21:43

Well sometimes spending time with our friends

21:45

can be almost as challenging as being

21:48

alone but is culling those friendships

21:50

the best long term solution. That's

21:52

up next. Are you an

21:55

early career PhD researcher or

21:57

do you know someone who is. It's time to apply

21:59

for this year. this is a unique

22:01

opportunity for outstanding scientists, humanities

22:03

academics, artists and cultural researchers. You could be

22:05

one of the amazing people we get to

22:08

meet to spend two weeks for the ABC,

22:10

learning about the media, and

22:13

communicating your amazing research. Find

22:16

full details online. Just

22:19

search for ABC top five to apply. Social

22:22

media is full of advice on

22:24

many things, but

22:26

also managing your relationships with others.

22:29

And it's often cribbed from the world of therapy.

22:31

Here are a few choice examples. Ditch

22:35

people who don't serve you. Okay. Having

22:39

different opinions is toxic. That's

22:41

a bit extreme, I feel. And this one,

22:44

if they chew with their mouth open, that's disrespecting

22:46

your boundaries. Ooh, I'm looking back

22:48

on past relationships and thinking that's

22:50

not true. Making

22:52

sure your friendships are positive and

22:54

respectful is definitely a worthy goal,

22:58

but are the algorithms merging

23:00

some quite well-intentioned and credible

23:02

ideas with petty or extreme

23:04

advice? After all, these

23:06

are actual people that we're talking about, and

23:08

some friendships have a long history. Are we

23:11

too quick to cull them in the name

23:13

of self-care? Dr. Lillian Nizard

23:15

is a clinical psychologist. She can

23:17

help us translate the therapy talk

23:19

into real-world advice. Lillian, great to have

23:22

you back on Life Matters. Great

23:24

to be here. Thank you. And Roger

23:26

Petolny is a professor of

23:28

sociology at Hong Kong Baptist

23:30

University. He's been researching loneliness,

23:33

social inclusion, and connection. Roger,

23:35

great to have you on the program. Hi,

23:38

thanks very much. Great to be here. Pleasure to

23:40

have you both. Roger, have our

23:42

expectations of our friendships been shifting

23:44

in recent years, judging by some of

23:46

the advice that we might be seeing online? It's

23:51

a tricky one when we rely on

23:53

online advice. Because

23:55

you get a lot of different contradictory things in the

23:57

online space. But I do... I

24:00

do think that there's

24:03

evidence and reasons to suggest that there is a bit of a

24:05

shift in our expectations. For

24:08

a long time now, we've been living in

24:11

a social milieu where we're

24:13

having an increase

24:15

in the number of single person

24:18

households which results from things like

24:20

an aging society and more fluid

24:22

and flexible sexualities and

24:24

partnerships and relationships, that kind of thing.

24:28

And with this sort of increase in

24:30

singleness in single person households, then

24:32

it becomes more important

24:36

to have very good friends.

24:39

And in addition to that, COVID obviously had

24:41

a very big impact as well. I

24:44

was involved in research during COVID where we

24:46

did a big online survey looking at learningness

24:49

and aspects of friendship during the pandemic. And one

24:51

of the most important things we found was

24:54

that during COVID, people really bunkered

24:56

down and they acted to

24:58

actively prune their networks. In other words,

25:00

focus on only the most important friends

25:03

and sort of trim the other ones back. And

25:06

it's not clear to me that those networks have expanded

25:08

again since then. So all this

25:10

leads me to believe that there's been an

25:12

increase in the focus on important friends and

25:14

I think that kind of raises the standards

25:17

at least a little bit. Well,

25:19

that's interesting because you suggest

25:21

that we're seeing the value

25:23

of our friends more and more if we've been

25:25

through a lockdown, for example, but

25:27

also perhaps that we have higher standards. Does

25:29

that mean we're less tolerant of Vivian

25:31

the good friends' flaws? Yeah,

25:35

it's a very great question.

25:38

And I think that

25:40

we potentially, like I said, have kind

25:42

of lifted our standards a little bit

25:44

and increased them. And of

25:47

course, COVID made us all realize the importance

25:49

of friendships when we weren't able to access

25:51

them after all that lockdown time. But

25:54

I also feel like we're becoming

25:56

potentially a bit less tolerant because

25:58

we're getting contradictory messages. So

26:01

for example, on the one hand we're told about

26:03

the importance of having really good

26:05

deep social connections, you know, they're obviously really important

26:07

things to have, but

26:09

on the other hand we're told that we need

26:11

to be true to ourselves and our own needs

26:14

and we should never ever live with

26:16

toxicity or excessively negative behaviour or narcissism

26:18

or dependency or any of those sorts

26:21

of things. And

26:23

that if there's any kind of bad behaviour, regardless

26:26

of the context or whether it's a one-off or

26:28

not, we should probably, you know, putt a friend

26:30

for our own mental health. And

26:33

these things can end up being a little bit

26:35

contradictory, particularly when we

26:37

recognise that as much as

26:39

we want a supportive friend who, you know, doesn't

26:42

make us feel bad at all, it's

26:44

important sometimes to have authentic

26:46

relationships with friends and that can include

26:49

the friends sometimes being able to challenge

26:51

you when necessary about your behaviour if

26:53

it's wrong or bad. And

26:55

so there's a lot of these sort of factors going around

26:58

which are a bit contradictory and I think they add to

27:00

the pressure that we feel in trying

27:04

to tolerate differences in our

27:06

friendships. Interesting. Authenticity

27:09

and boundaries and needs. This is a

27:11

very meaty discussion we're having with Roger

27:13

Petolny who's a professor of sociology at Hong

27:16

Kong Baptist University and Dr

27:18

Lillian Najad who's a clinical psychologist, a

27:21

friend of the program here on Life Matters

27:23

on our end. Lillian, where do our standards

27:25

and expectations of friend relationships come from

27:27

in our culture generally? Well,

27:31

they are shaped by

27:33

multiple factors. Like

27:36

you said, cultural and societal norms are

27:38

part of that but also our

27:42

expectations and standards for friendships are

27:44

shaped by the family dynamics that

27:46

we were in, how parents kind

27:48

of modeled friendships, our

27:51

caregivers modeled friendships as

27:53

we are growing up as well

27:55

as our own personal experiences of friendships.

28:00

like such psychological factors can

28:02

play a part as well.

28:04

Someone's assessment of, you know,

28:07

their self-worth, whether they

28:09

are socially anxious or shy, what

28:12

their attachment styles might have been like as

28:14

young people. So

28:17

there, and also media influence, like you

28:19

were saying or alluding to before, that

28:21

social media has had a

28:23

lot of influence on what our expectations

28:26

of our friendships are or should be. Well,

28:29

how often do we explicitly outline our

28:31

expectations in our friendships? I'm looking

28:33

around at my own relationships and

28:35

thinking it's, it has

28:38

much more of an organic feeling and is that a good

28:40

thing? Yeah,

28:42

I think that that's generally what

28:44

happens is that it is quite

28:46

organic and potentially people aren't generally

28:49

thinking about what they expect from friends

28:51

when they're first meeting people. It's something

28:53

that develops over time. And

28:56

potentially the closer you are to someone,

28:58

the more expectations you have of

29:01

that person. But, you

29:03

know, just talking on what

29:05

you and Roger were talking about before

29:07

in terms of, there can be kind of this all

29:10

or nothing way of thinking about

29:12

friends. Like they're either giving me everything

29:14

that I want or they're not or

29:17

they're disappointing me in a way and that potentially

29:19

means that I need to cancel them. That

29:22

kind of cancel culture phenomenon

29:24

that's been, you know, seeping into

29:26

our societal norms that's

29:29

potentially been seeping into our personal relationships

29:32

as well and maybe influencing how

29:34

we're managing our social circles. Roger

29:37

Petoni, we've been talking a lot

29:39

today on Life Matters about distraction

29:41

and how that affects our ability

29:43

to self-reflect and our ability to

29:45

connect with others. And I

29:47

noticed that Sheila Lyming, the writer

29:50

who we've also spoken to on this program

29:52

recently, said that friendship requires

29:54

stamina but the pace of

29:56

modern life is better suited to

29:58

bailing. So she used... The If.

30:01

You know is if I have a conflict

30:03

with a friend, it's very easy to guy.

30:05

Look, I've got a guy on corporate other

30:07

things on. I don't want to sift through

30:09

this in detail that she put herself through

30:11

this process. See she stayed out at

30:13

a bar with a friend and I

30:15

told through the thing for hours until

30:18

they had worked out what was going

30:20

on and sound the common ground again.

30:22

Steve Seals At that price of modern

30:24

loss generalization is something that might be

30:26

feeding into this shift. Yeah,

30:29

I do. Actually, I think it's a

30:31

very interesting observation that some Sheila's might.

30:33

ah, it's it from March, one of

30:35

us. quite interesting. does it saves on

30:38

sociological worth? It's been going on since

30:40

the seventies or eighties. must have led

30:42

by. The Uk

30:44

process as any, giddens on what

30:46

he calls the transformation of intimacy

30:48

and I'm in Out in modern

30:50

society and he and he's talking

30:52

about house as really behind traditional

30:54

forms of of relating. Ah, we

30:57

move into a spice about. Ah,

30:59

where we build our own identity.

31:01

And we have fluid connections

31:04

and secure relationships. And. These.

31:06

Things break down a little more

31:08

easily and then you add that

31:10

so does our movement towards swords

31:12

great at individualization if you like

31:15

to ah the rise in social

31:17

media and you get a very

31:19

fast paced sort of results driven

31:21

social media True reason why ever

31:23

listen I'm Ah. I would also

31:25

adds. That social media

31:27

are often can encourage Brits not depths

31:30

of friendship connections arm and that might

31:32

tend on whether the social media platform

31:34

his arm outward looking at to connect

31:36

to the public. for example Twitter and

31:39

store Tic toc Were you looking for

31:41

lox vs whether that platform as inward

31:43

looking outside the some support groups like

31:45

my decisive these guys are what's up.

31:48

But if you're really out there engaging

31:50

the out with space and you looking

31:52

for life more than depths of friendships.

31:55

Then yeah, that can also lead to

31:57

this sauce. Quits desire for you know,

32:00

Give me the the friendship he thought I want.

32:02

Otherwise I'm moving on pre fast. The

32:05

Sitting with Roger Fatale his a

32:07

professor of sociology at Hong Kong

32:09

Baptist University has been looking into

32:11

loneliness and social inclusion and connection

32:13

and how they function at the

32:15

moment and of the Lillian this

32:17

out who's a clinical psychologist with

32:19

him with be quite regularly about

32:21

issues including friendship and relationship, million

32:23

of people who has struggled with

32:26

boundaries or self respect. To her

32:28

a massive people places for example

32:30

or harm this idea of calling

32:32

friendships ways I feel the balance.

32:34

Is wrong or there's not enough. respect could

32:36

be seen as of a helpful thing as

32:38

a correction to them. Kind of over giving

32:40

in the past I guess we have concerned

32:42

I aren't with what the right balances. Between

32:45

respecting your own needs and having

32:47

him for seen being able to

32:49

be generous towards a friend had

32:51

we judge this. Well

32:54

it is really important. To be

32:57

able to recognize when a relationship

32:59

is harmful and when and when.

33:01

And it's something that's actually. How

33:04

see ads? On in

33:06

your best interest, so on

33:08

and sometimes pretty obvious when.

33:11

In a relationship star are labeled

33:13

toxic and they might we might

33:15

be talking about when they're on

33:17

safer or really disrespectful or are.

33:19

Dishonest. but sometimes it's not

33:21

as obvious when when a

33:23

friendship is I'm going south

33:25

or as is, heading down

33:27

kind of an unhealthy path

33:29

path, so it can be.

33:31

Really difficult and especially if you

33:34

are someone who likes to please.

33:37

On. And. That's

33:40

generally. Underpinned

33:42

by anxiety and. Worries

33:45

about being lights. Ah,

33:48

it can be again. hard to

33:50

gauge. And trader a healthy

33:52

balance in a relationship because

33:54

the anxiety trying to prevent

33:56

sire were on. Can

33:59

compel people. We're blade as

34:01

difficult or. Challenging conversations that might

34:03

create more balance and relationship school. I

34:06

mean if you I didn't see that

34:08

is. Heading towards a difficult to challenging. Conversations:

34:10

How can you work through that and

34:12

and give it? I guess the respect

34:15

it deserves if it if it is

34:17

a good friend. Noon million. Well.

34:20

It takes courage. it takes stepping

34:23

out of your comfort zone. Ah,

34:25

and sometimes. It sometimes.

34:27

You need support to do that, so is

34:30

it something that you've never done before? It

34:32

can be really helpful. To

34:34

talk with someone you trust, or even

34:36

if it's someone like a therapist potentially

34:38

who can help you kind of work.

34:40

Through how you might approach

34:43

conversation like that if. You

34:45

have had those conversations before and you

34:47

might you know it's come up again

34:50

and it just makes you feel uncomfortable

34:52

that it might have spear. it might

34:54

just be about taking that step, reaching

34:57

out. And I'm like like in the

34:59

example that you gave earlier and having

35:01

enough making that time, had conversations with

35:03

someone and works through what's actually going

35:06

on in your relationship and how close

35:08

as you can actually make it better.

35:10

and just as we wind up. Roger

35:13

Bootle neon on Cessna it and I'm sure our

35:15

listeners will be to. Vote is that

35:17

this way? To approach friendships in the

35:20

world that we live in is

35:22

it is. It's better to has

35:24

more variety. of friends so that we

35:26

can spread those expectations more seen lease or

35:28

few a bit better friends as you notice

35:30

senor study about what happened during cause it.

35:34

Awesome! Be Christians

35:37

stuffers, massage. Base.

35:40

Outside kind of a mix of both.

35:43

I'm It's is important to have Douglas

35:45

friendship groups because are different. Friends will

35:47

filter for needs so it's good to

35:49

have a variety. Ah is it was

35:51

always friends. come from the one source

35:53

and and something happens to that source.

35:55

you can lose the Whole Foods and

35:57

what you said. Think about when people's

35:59

friends or. Where can I suddenly retire?

36:01

That's Not right. But.

36:04

Also, and and this is gonna

36:06

leave my counterpoint i'm a more

36:09

diversified group increases your chances of

36:11

meeting the kind of people that

36:13

you more authentically get along with,

36:15

and that gives you an opportunity

36:18

because. I feel out

36:20

there of his faith, groups make

36:22

lots of people. You can potentially

36:24

bring people together from different spices

36:26

in your loss of form a

36:28

brand new supergroup that's really suits

36:30

you. I really like this approach

36:32

because in a full conversation we're

36:34

talking almost as though it's like

36:36

one on one just you and

36:38

your your best your your other

36:40

friends. But what's really important realizes

36:42

that of friendships exist in networks.

36:45

And. Olson's the Friendship Rise From Have a

36:47

Somebody is they were embedded in oil

36:49

and water network and if you can

36:51

you don't get people together help build

36:53

the right network that really helps out

36:55

or I'll just use a really quick

36:58

example. If you give me a second

37:00

I'm like I'm I'm thought personally have

37:02

a are rising groups that that works

37:04

in Sydney's in a west ah we're

37:06

really a good group am and then

37:08

I left and moved to Hong Kong

37:10

for work and some. That could

37:12

have been a real opportunity to this

37:15

let the group sly than just disconnect

37:17

from paypal on say asked to inconvenience

37:19

to far wiser to hop lovable of

37:21

law and instead we we formed a

37:23

really good damn what's that groups are

37:25

we kept in connection. Are

37:27

now at. My friends is Potter group isn't

37:29

had some Norton as his name is just

37:32

written his first book which is called pink

37:34

Ice which is a great fun. Wrote a

37:36

book about friendships i'm in the face of

37:38

an alien invasion into Tasmania said really like

37:40

on sign so sad out think I was

37:43

hooked up anyway he's just published it and

37:45

myself my friends or part of that experience

37:47

which was an excellent spirits be part of

37:49

even though it's i'm in it entirely different

37:52

country so I guess on try size use

37:54

attack. And focus on what brings you

37:56

together as a group of people. Not a single

37:58

one of my friends. rather

38:00

than focusing on the differences that keep us apart.

38:03

Good advice. I also love the

38:05

super group idea that travelling Wilbury

38:07

of friendships approach gets

38:09

a whole bunch of stellar performance together.

38:13

Roger Petunni is a professor of sociology at

38:15

Hong Kong Baptist University. Roger, thanks for your

38:17

time today. And Dr Lillian Nizad is

38:19

a clinical psychologist. Lillian, great to chat with

38:21

you again. Thank you.

38:23

This is Life Matters on

38:25

RN. Is there such a thing as a

38:28

miracle drug? Well,

38:30

that's certainly how people are describing Ozempic, which

38:32

is one of the brand names for

38:34

semiglutide drugs. These were

38:36

the ones that were developed to treat diabetes and

38:38

are now being used by a very large number

38:40

of people, in some places at least, for weight

38:42

loss. But is

38:44

the way we're being encouraged to think about this

38:47

class of drugs healthy in itself? Dr

38:50

Emma Beckett is an adjunct senior lecturer

38:52

in nutrition, dietetics and food innovation at

38:55

the University of New South Wales. Emma,

38:58

welcome to Life Matters. Hi, thanks for having me.

39:00

It's a pleasure. What are you hearing

39:02

about people's experiences using Ozempic for weight loss

39:04

and that kind of drug, in

39:06

terms of physical impact first, I guess? Yeah,

39:09

it's a really mixed experience that people are

39:11

reporting having. So some people are talking about

39:14

how great it is to finally not feel

39:16

hungry all the time and they feel like

39:18

their hunger signals are normal like everyone else's.

39:21

And then other people are talking about

39:24

the nasty side effects that they get.

39:26

And people have ended up in hospital

39:28

with vomiting and diarrhea so bad. People

39:30

have ended up with pancreatitis and those

39:32

kinds of awful side effects. And

39:35

then you're hearing from people who've been on it for

39:37

quite a little while, who are

39:39

seeing the effects kind of wear off and they're

39:41

reaching that plateau of weight loss that

39:43

we see with almost every kind

39:46

of restrictive diet and

39:48

then not losing the same kind of weight that they did

39:50

at the start. So why do we see that

39:52

kind of variability in different

39:54

kinds of bodies? Because

39:57

biology is complicated and humans aren't deserving.

40:00

And there's so much stuff that just happens,

40:02

you know, by a random combination

40:05

of biology that makes amazing humans

40:07

who we are. And

40:09

for me, that variability is something that would

40:11

have been really great to talk about positively

40:13

when we discovered how these drugs worked for

40:16

appetite and weight loss. We could have taken

40:18

a step back and said, oh,

40:20

actually, the reason why these drugs work

40:23

for some people is because we don't

40:25

all have the same hunger signals. So

40:27

we keep approaching this as,

40:29

you know, everyone should be able to work

40:31

just as hard as each other and lose

40:33

the same amount of weight and everyone should

40:36

have the option or opportunity to get to

40:38

the same healthy, in

40:40

quotes, weight. And

40:43

biologically speaking, not everyone does have that same

40:45

opportunity. So we could have really recognized that

40:48

when we discovered these weight loss drugs, but

40:50

instead we went down the path of, you

40:53

know, peer pressure and judgment and, you know,

40:55

lose weight at all costs and, you know,

40:57

putting weight back at the center of this

40:59

conversation when we were doing such a good

41:02

job at taking it towards health regardless of

41:04

weight. And a lot of that's been undone

41:06

in the last year. That's really interesting perspective.

41:09

What about the emotional side of things? Because

41:12

I guess, you know, if we look at it through

41:14

a lens of weight loss, good, thin,

41:16

good, fat, bad, then people go, well, it's

41:18

an unalloyed benefit if it does work for

41:21

you. But I understand that you're hearing more

41:23

of a mixed bag of emotional impacts for

41:25

people as well. It's

41:27

really difficult because a lot of people who

41:30

are overweight don't

41:32

see that as being a problem. They know

41:34

it's not a moral failing and they don't

41:36

see it as being a biological failing either.

41:39

And so all of this, you know, sounding off

41:41

about, you know, here's this miracle way to fix

41:44

all you people will all be normal weights in

41:46

the future because we have these drugs now. And

41:49

that's not going to work biologically because these drugs

41:51

won't work the same on all people. Be not

41:53

everyone wants to choose it. And if

41:55

you take a step back and think, how did

41:57

we get to the point where well, the clams

42:00

wearing miracle drugs for weight losses, the next

42:02

and greatest thing and talking about them all

42:04

the time in the media as we are

42:06

now. What about our

42:08

society and what we think about fat people

42:11

and fatness? What brought us here? And when

42:13

you really stop and think about that, it

42:15

is the fat phobia because people aren't saying

42:17

these drugs will be great. They'll make a

42:20

whole bunch of people healthier. They're

42:22

saying these drugs will be great. They'll make a

42:24

whole bunch of people thinner. And we don't all

42:26

have equal access and we don't all have equal

42:29

opportunities and we don't all have equal biology. So

42:31

let's just stop for a second and think about

42:33

who we're hurting along the way to what we

42:35

see as solutions and really

42:37

think about how we're actually defining that

42:40

problem to start with. It's really interesting,

42:42

isn't it? Because this drug, this class

42:44

of drugs is really having quite a

42:46

cultural moment. Dr. Emma Beckett, how much

42:48

do you feel that's being driven by

42:51

medicine and how

42:53

much by culture? You mentioned the

42:55

words diet culture before. I wonder if you could

42:57

explain if that plays into this. Yeah.

43:00

So there's definitely been a crossover

43:02

between cultural moments and medical discoveries

43:04

here. And so when

43:06

I talk about diet culture, diet

43:08

culture is the set of ideologies

43:10

that society shares that says thinness

43:12

is more important than any other

43:14

aspect of health and that striving

43:16

for thinness should be done at

43:18

sacrifice of other aspects of wellness

43:21

and wellbeing, including happiness and psychological

43:23

wellbeing and sometimes including the rest

43:25

of your physical wellbeing. And

43:27

because we have that furor

43:30

around thinness and diet

43:32

culture, having medications that

43:34

address weight are

43:36

of interest to the general public. But

43:39

then we slide into conversations about who should

43:41

be allowed to take this drug and who

43:43

deserves it. And people message me and they

43:45

say, oh, well, I think proper fat people

43:47

should be able to use it, but not

43:49

people who just are a little bit fat.

43:52

And like, where do we draw those lines?

43:54

You know, who gets to decide who's proper

43:56

fat and what does proper fat mean in

43:58

terms of being deserving? of medical

44:00

intervention or not. And so

44:03

actually bringing these conversations, bringing people of

44:05

different body sizes into these conversations and

44:07

not just pathologizing and judging these outcomes

44:09

would be a lot more beneficial in

44:12

the long term if we're going to

44:14

keep going down this path. Otherwise it's

44:16

just going to be this cycle of

44:18

fat phobia and haves and have-nots and

44:20

fat stigma and we're just going to

44:23

end up in this situation with a

44:25

different type of drug when this one

44:27

wears off or has side effects that

44:29

people can't tolerate. If you've just

44:32

joined this conversation you're hearing Dr. Emma

44:34

Beckett who's a food and nutrition scientist

44:36

and an adjunct senior lecturer at the

44:38

University of New South Wales. And we're

44:40

looking at the idea of Ozempic and

44:42

other semaglutide drugs as a,

44:45

in quotes, miracle cure for

44:47

obesity. Kate, you mentioned

44:49

other drugs. Have we seen this kind of latching

44:51

onto the idea of miracle cures before and what

44:53

happened to those drugs? Yeah, so

44:56

for weight loss drugs we've definitely seen the

44:58

idea of miracle cures before and we

45:00

definitely hear this in the weight loss space

45:02

more than any other conditions simply because of

45:05

the diet culture and judgment that comes around

45:07

body weight. And so we've had drugs that

45:10

do things like block absorption of fats and

45:12

so you can eat the same foods or

45:14

it puts you off eating fat because you

45:16

get the very negative side effects of oily

45:18

stools when you take these products. We were

45:20

told those would be the next big thing

45:22

in weight loss and we'd all be thin

45:24

if we could take those. That didn't

45:26

pan out because the side effects were so terrible and

45:28

the results were not as good as

45:30

anticipated. We've had stimulant drugs

45:33

that have been spooked as the best

45:35

way to lose weight. Simply make your

45:37

body burn more energy through stimulation. Obviously,

45:40

those have very negative side effects. And

45:42

then we've had the big medical interventions

45:44

like the bypass surgeries

45:46

where you're tying off sections of

45:49

people's stomachs or stapling stomachs so

45:51

people physically can't eat as much

45:54

food. And everyone I know

45:56

who went through that lost a lot of

45:58

weight early on, struggled with nourishment early

46:00

on and then eventually their body

46:02

re-equilibrated back to their original weight.

46:05

And so these solutions, for some people

46:07

they're going to work but for some

46:09

people they're going to be a false

46:11

flag of hope. This is

46:13

fascinating too to learn from some of

46:15

your writing on the conversation website for

46:17

example that obesity can even coexist with

46:19

malnutrition. Tell us about that. Yeah,

46:22

so we focus on weight so much and say this

46:24

weight is a good one and this one is a

46:27

bad one and these people are healthy and unhealthy. But

46:29

we can be overweight and malnourished

46:32

so if we're not eating macronutrient

46:34

dense foods, if we're just eating

46:36

calorie dense foods, our obesity can

46:38

be linked to malnourishment. But

46:41

we can have the same thing where

46:43

a slim person can be malnourished. We

46:45

can also have the reverse where someone

46:48

who is overweight can be eating all

46:50

of the right foods and be perfectly

46:52

well nourished. And then of

46:54

course we've got different fitnesses that we

46:56

can apply on top of that. I've

46:58

been very thin and I've been very

47:00

overweight and I was probably my fittest

47:03

at my highest weight point and doing

47:05

more physical activity and bigger and stronger

47:07

physical activity. And so instead of looking

47:09

at the weight and going let's change

47:11

those weight at all cost at

47:14

the expense of perhaps nourishment and

47:16

physical activity, let's look at how

47:18

we can work with people in

47:20

all body sizes to make better

47:22

choices for food and nutrition and

47:24

to make better choices for physical

47:26

activity that fit into their context

47:28

and their lives. So instead of

47:30

alienating people and going nope, not

47:32

your way, let's say what would

47:34

work best for each individual person

47:37

rather than keeping trying to apply

47:39

these blanket miracle cures which are

47:41

very marketable but don't necessarily work

47:43

for everyone. It's really

47:45

fascinating to unpick some of the lenses that

47:48

people are looking at this through when you start

47:50

to see a new drug come on the market.

47:52

We talked a little bit about the

47:54

way it plays into pre-existing cultural

47:56

attitudes around diet culture and the

48:00

idea that overweight has

48:02

moral implications and that all bodies

48:05

work the same and that therefore

48:07

should in inverted commas be doing

48:09

particular things. Kate, what

48:11

happens when a larger person who

48:13

has represented body positivity uses

48:16

one of these kinds of drugs? I'm thinking of the

48:18

Oprah effect. Tell us what happened there. Kate

48:21

O'Neill Yeah, so the Oprah effect is

48:23

really difficult because Oprah has been very

48:25

public for her career about her struggles

48:27

with weight and her quest for weight

48:30

loss. She has shared

48:33

a lot of her weight loss journeys and a lot

48:35

of people have followed her weight loss journeys. People

48:38

who have felt like they've been

48:41

sharing that struggle along beside her

48:43

have felt betrayed by the now

48:46

open declaration of using these medications.

48:50

The challenge here is that when we

48:52

see people like Oprah lose weight on

48:54

each of these individual diets that she's

48:56

chosen. Every time a

48:58

diet works, we all go as the

49:00

viewing public, we all go, that works,

49:03

we'll do that too. Then

49:05

we see Oprah gain weight again. We

49:07

don't go, actually that diet has

49:09

failed Oprah. We go, Oprah failed

49:12

on that diet. Then we

49:14

think the same thing when we do it. We never

49:16

blame the diets. We always blame us. We always have

49:18

not lived up to the potential. The

49:22

idea, I'm definitely not saying Oprah should be

49:24

allowed to take weight loss drugs if that's

49:26

what she chooses to do. I'm

49:28

sure she has all of the medical

49:30

consultations, all of the nutritionists, everyone who

49:32

can help her make sure she's doing

49:34

this in the healthiest possible way. We

49:37

don't all have the resources

49:40

and the access to experts that

49:42

people like Oprah to have. What

49:45

she does will have a trickle down effect to what

49:47

other people do or what other

49:49

people feel judged or inadequate for

49:51

not being able to do. Really

49:54

thinking about that big picture rather than just

49:56

going miracle drug really would get

49:58

us, it's a lot harder. conversation but

50:00

it would get us a lot further into actually

50:02

trying to help people who we claim

50:05

these drugs are designed for. There's

50:08

that idea too isn't there that using

50:10

the drugs is in inverted commas

50:12

cheating because there's an approved way

50:15

and not approved ways to lose

50:17

weight. This is one

50:19

of the absolutely most insane things about

50:21

this debate is that we're telling

50:25

people that they need to lose weight for

50:27

health but then when

50:29

they choose these drugs to do that, we

50:31

tell them that they're cheating and they're not doing

50:33

it the right way or the hard way. But

50:36

the very fact that these drugs work

50:38

is because controlling an appetite

50:40

is not about willpower alone. There

50:43

are so many hormones that are

50:45

involved in controlling our appetite and

50:47

controlling our weight and the very

50:49

reason that these drugs work is

50:51

that some people find that a

50:53

lot harder and much different experience to

50:55

other people. So reflecting on

50:57

that and fat people just can't win either

51:00

way. We're damned if we do and we're

51:02

damned if we don't. We

51:04

really want to be in a situation

51:06

where we can respect different choices for

51:08

different people so that everyone can have

51:11

the best possible shot at health and

51:13

happiness not just people who have certain

51:15

options or certain situations. A

51:18

text has popped in, I am an obese

51:20

34-year-old with polycystic ovaries and diabetes. I've tried

51:22

all diets and drugs and one thing I've

51:24

learnt is we need to focus on the

51:27

hormone imbalance that's preventing the weight loss rather

51:29

than the fast fix. This conversation is wonderful

51:32

for me. Thank you Dr they say. But

51:34

this one too from Samantha in Moorabbin, what

51:36

about the health risks involved with being overweight

51:38

like heart, cancer etc even if you exercise

51:40

and eat healthy? Emma

51:44

there's the

51:46

argument that overweight can

51:48

put stress on the healthcare system

51:51

more broadly too. How would you respond

51:53

to those arguments? Yes, so

51:55

there's a couple of things there. We need

51:57

to remember that it's not just weight that

51:59

puts stress onto the health

52:01

system, malnourishment will also put stress onto

52:03

the health system. So again, if we

52:05

can address the malnourishment and in

52:08

cases where that is linked to the

52:10

weight, then the weight changes will follow.

52:14

We also know that a lot

52:16

of the problems that come from

52:18

weight being linked to health can't

52:21

be extracted from the

52:23

other exposures that relate to higher

52:26

weight. So if you're of a

52:28

higher weight because of socioeconomic pressures,

52:30

you know, you can't afford the

52:32

same healthy food as richer people.

52:35

We use myths and statistics to

52:37

kind of separate those effects out,

52:39

but you can't ever completely. And

52:41

so we have things like,

52:43

you know, the actual foods people are

52:46

eating, the nourishment, we have the socioeconomic

52:48

impacts, we have the situational impacts. All

52:50

of those contribute to the poorer health outcomes

52:53

for overweight and obese people. Emma, I have

52:55

to leave it there, but it's been such

52:57

a fascinating conversation. Thanks so much

52:59

for joining us on Life Matters today. I

53:02

look forward to a society designed better

53:04

for fat people to thrive as well.

53:06

Thank you. Thank you. Dr. Edmund Beckett

53:08

is a food and nutrition scientist and

53:10

an adjunct senior lecturer at the University

53:12

of New South Wales. Wow,

53:14

our text line I think has melted down with

53:16

all the texts we got on all the stories

53:19

we did today. I'll just leave you with this

53:21

one about being alone. I often go

53:23

and have a coffee or a meal on my own.

53:25

I never think about what others are thinking about me.

53:27

I don't think I'm that important. Interesting.

53:30

There's been a lot of focus in recent

53:32

times on mental illness and what works to

53:34

help sufferers and scientists are

53:36

exploring psychedelics for some conditions. There's

53:39

not been wide take-up so far.

53:41

Is that about financial barriers, lack

53:44

of evidence, stigma? Lots

53:46

to explore on Life Matters next time.

53:48

You'll hear from a researcher who's been

53:50

working in this field, a psychiatrist who

53:52

can illuminate for us how it might

53:54

work for various conditions and

53:56

a clinician who can tell us about the

53:58

potential real-world implications for I'm

54:01

Hilary Harper. Hope you can join me then. Discover

54:30

more great ABC podcasts, live

54:32

radio and exclusives on the

54:35

ABC Listen app.