0:00

ABC Listen, podcasts,

0:02

radio, news, music

0:04

and more. Jacinta

0:13

Parsons filling in for Hilary Harper

0:15

this week here on the lands

0:17

of the Kulin Nation. Do

0:20

you remember the days when

0:22

cigarette and alcohol advertising were

0:25

everywhere when we watched sport?

0:28

Well, now it's gambling

0:30

advertising. And while

0:32

the federal government has recommended,

0:34

amongst other things, a phased

0:36

comprehensive ban on gambling ads,

0:39

sporting leagues operate to some

0:41

extent under a voluntary self-regulated

0:43

code of conduct. In

0:46

positive moves, we've seen a number

0:48

of clubs turn away from gambling

0:50

sponsorships, but it's big money

0:52

for the leagues and the relationship with

0:55

gambling seems to be deepening. I

0:57

want to hear from you. Has

0:59

sports gambling impacted you or your

1:01

family? And do you think

1:04

the banning ads would make a difference? Joining

1:07

me to get a little insight

1:09

into this today, Pat McGrath joins

1:11

us, a reporter with ABC Investigations,

1:13

who's been following the story.

1:15

Welcome, Pat. Hi Jacinta, thanks for

1:17

having me. And Associate Professor

1:19

Alex Russell, gambling researcher

1:21

at the Experimental Gambling

1:23

Research Lab at CQ

1:26

University. Hello Alex. Good

1:28

morning. I love the idea of you

1:30

in a lab. Do you wear a lab coat Alex?

1:34

Only on special occasions. Alex,

1:37

let's kick off with you. I mean,

1:39

it feels like I'm seeing a

1:41

lot more gambling ads and conversations

1:44

around gambling with sport at

1:46

the moment. Is that just because, you know,

1:48

a bit of recency bias or is there actually

1:51

been an increase? No,

1:53

there's a lot of gambling ads out there and

1:55

they have been for quite a while actually. I

1:57

think it's one of those things where, you know,

2:00

we're noticing it a bit more because we're talking about it

2:02

quite a lot. But there's a

2:04

lovely study from a few years ago that showed

2:06

that there were five times as many gambling ads

2:08

on free to air television compared to alcohol ads.

2:10

And look, we're a nation of drinkers. So that

2:12

should tell you just how much of it is

2:14

out there. Pat,

2:16

when we're talking about sports betting in

2:19

Australia and the money that it brings

2:21

into the games, advertising

2:23

is serious money. I

2:25

saw a report saying that the

2:27

gambling industry spent $309 million on

2:29

ads in

2:32

Australia in 2022, but is

2:34

it just advertising or are there

2:37

other revenue streams that we get from

2:39

gambling? Yeah, well, there's

2:41

basically three levels of revenue

2:43

that's going into the sporting

2:45

industry from the gambling

2:47

industry. There's the advertising, which is the

2:49

most noticeable part of

2:52

the influence of gambling and the

2:55

money that flows in. And that kind of

2:57

flows indirectly into the sporting bodies because it

3:00

helps to increase the value of sporting rights

3:02

that the likes of the AFL and

3:04

the NRL sell to the broadcasters and

3:07

those those broadcasting rights

3:09

become way more valuable because there is

3:11

this air time that gambling companies really

3:13

want because there's huge audiences watching these

3:15

games and their product is highly relevant

3:18

to these audiences because they're

3:20

betting on the games that they're watching. And

3:22

then there's the direct sponsorship of

3:24

the sporting competition. So the NRL and

3:27

AFL both have direct sponsorships with sports

3:29

bets. So that provides a revenue

3:31

stream as well. But beneath

3:33

that, that there's also these agreements

3:36

between the sporting bodies,

3:39

every big sporting body in Australia and

3:41

the gambling companies that essentially opens

3:43

up this information

3:46

sharing system between

3:48

the sporting bodies and the bookmakers, so

3:50

the sporting bodies have access to who

3:52

is betting on their games and can

3:54

control what types of bets the bookmakers

3:57

can offer. But it also entitles the

3:59

sporting bodies. to a cut of every bet

4:01

placed on their games. Can you

4:03

give me a bit more information around that? Because

4:05

I don't know how widely understood that

4:08

is, that some codes, some

4:10

codes, or is it quite prevalent,

4:12

actually get a cut of

4:14

the bets? Oh, it's every major

4:16

sporting body in Australia, from

4:18

the NRL, Cricket

4:21

Australia, and then the AFL down

4:23

to Lawn Bowls. Australia have these

4:25

agreements with bookmakers that say, we'll

4:27

allow you to bet on our games and

4:29

our sport, but you have to

4:31

pay us either a proportion

4:34

of total bets on games,

4:37

or matches, or points, or runs, or

4:40

whatever it is, down to the most granular levels of

4:42

play in a game, or a percentage

4:44

of your profits on those bets. So

4:47

the sporting bodies,

4:50

basically, whether or not the

4:52

bookmakers make money out of their games or not, they're

4:54

guaranteed a cut of the action. Now

4:56

the sporting bodies say that these agreements,

4:59

it does generate revenue, but the value of

5:01

these agreements for them is that it's an

5:04

integrity measure. It means that they can see

5:06

who's betting on their games, they can see

5:08

who's involved in these markets, they can see

5:11

if people playing games, or if people involved

5:13

with players are betting on games. And it

5:15

also helps to fund their integrity units so

5:17

they can monitor these activities. But

5:20

as we've seen an increase in sports

5:22

betting, particularly since the pandemic,

5:25

when people really started betting more, these

5:28

have become highly profitable agreements to the point

5:30

where, when we were looking at this closely

5:32

last year for the NRL alone, it was

5:34

worth about $50 million in

5:36

a year, and a similar

5:38

amount of money for the AFL. So

5:42

Alex, from your perspective, and

5:44

listening to those arguments that are made

5:46

by sporting codes and leagues, does it

5:49

create a risk of, you

5:51

know, generating the wrong incentives for the

5:53

leagues in the decisions that they make?

5:57

Potentially, yeah, there's a few factors

5:59

here. I mean, it opens

6:01

up integrity risks with players getting

6:03

involved. We've

6:06

seen certain players betting on games that they

6:08

were playing and things like that. So

6:11

there's that sort of issue. And it

6:13

can also lead to sort of throwing

6:15

matches. It's pretty hard

6:18

to get a team, for example, in a team

6:20

sport, to throw an entire match to make some

6:22

money out of the gambling industry

6:26

or bets being placed, I should say. But

6:29

there are certain types of bets that can

6:31

be placed on a particular play

6:34

happening within the game, which you can do

6:36

without throwing the whole match and jeopardizing the

6:38

team's season. So there's that

6:40

side of it, because there is

6:42

quite a lot of money involved.

6:44

And you've got young, usually impressionable

6:48

players who are after a quick buck. So

6:50

there's that side of things. But

6:52

the other side is that a lot of people don't

6:55

really like just how involved gambling

6:57

is in their favorite sports. You

7:00

know, they're watching often

7:02

with their kids, for example, and seeing lots

7:04

of gambling advertising everywhere. And people

7:06

just don't feel very comfortable about that. And it's pretty

7:08

fair enough, to be honest. We're talking

7:10

about sports gambling today on

7:12

Life Matters. We're joined by

7:14

Pat McGrath, reporter with ABC

7:17

Investigations and Alex Russell, associate

7:19

professor in gambling research. Has

7:22

gambling advertising

7:24

and sport affected you or your family?

7:26

And do you think a restriction on

7:28

that advertising would make a difference? We've

7:30

got Sonia joining us in the Central

7:32

Coast. Sonia, what do you think about

7:34

sports betting ads? Well,

7:36

what I found is, I mean, we

7:38

watch just because we've got young kids,

7:41

the six o'clock news on

7:43

commercial television. And

7:46

it just occurred to me over the Easter long

7:48

weekend, I couldn't believe. I just,

7:50

I said, hang on, it's only six

7:52

o'clock and Ladbrokes and all these other,

7:54

I mean, I even start to know

7:56

now the gaming company's

7:59

names. and then their jingles. And

8:01

so my kids and I thought I was under

8:03

the impression that it fell under alcohol

8:06

and cigarette advertising and things like

8:08

that, that it came on

8:10

after eight o'clock or whatever the cutoff

8:12

period is for

8:15

non-childlike time, anytime. So

8:18

yes, we were shocked that it was so light-

8:21

And yeah. It's a really great question,

8:23

Sonia. Alex, what are the

8:26

restrictions around when how this advertising

8:28

can be seen? So

8:31

generally, they try to avoid periods when

8:35

children are meant to be watching. So the

8:38

rules have changed a few

8:40

years ago, but I think the cutoff is somewhere

8:42

around nine o'clock. But

8:44

there are a lot of exceptions around that. So they're

8:46

also not meant to be sort of- You

8:50

might remember the days when certain

8:52

sports betting personalities might appear

8:56

next to the commentary team. And it

8:58

really blurred the lines between whether they were

9:01

part of the broadcast or whether this was an ad. So

9:03

a lot of the rules that came in were

9:06

about sort of clearing that up, making it very

9:09

clear that this is an ad, it's different to

9:11

the program. So they can have gambling

9:13

ads fearing some sporting broadcast,

9:15

particularly really long ones. So things like

9:17

whole day events, like the Olympics, for

9:19

example. There is

9:22

a specific exception around showing

9:24

gambling advertising during news periods.

9:27

So they can have gambling ads during that time.

9:29

I'm not really sure why there is that exception,

9:31

but there's a reason why you saw it there

9:33

because they're allowed to. Lots

9:35

of texts are coming through on this

9:37

as well. This one from Melissa in

9:40

Southern Tasmania. I've never gambled online or

9:42

at all really, yet I sporadically receive

9:44

unsolicited text messages inviting me to bed

9:46

online. When I receive them, I delete

9:49

them and report them as spam. But

9:51

I still get them, it's insidious. And

9:54

this one here as well, it's

9:56

absolutely outrageous that we allow gambling

9:58

advertising in this country. people

10:00

are addicted to the money so that they can't give

10:02

it up. We should talk about this every

10:04

day until they stop it. It must

10:07

be banned as soon as possible. People

10:09

are paying for this with their lives

10:11

and their mental health and no one

10:13

seems to care. We have strong feelings

10:16

on this relationship with gambling and sport.

10:18

Alex, I mean, sorry, Pat. Pat.

10:22

Is it, I mean, you mentioned lawn bowls before

10:25

and of course that's a professional sport too, but

10:28

it seems like it's proliferated

10:30

everywhere. Are we just talking

10:32

about professional sport? Not

10:34

at all. We're talking about

10:36

amateur sports, semi-professional sport and

10:38

particularly in the international games,

10:41

soccer and tennis and

10:44

cricket. That's where we're seeing betting

10:46

and gambling and promotion of betting at all levels

10:48

of the game, of

10:50

those games. And to an extent,

10:52

you know, permission from the governing

10:54

bodies to allow betting on those

10:56

games. What we discovered in the

10:58

course of our investigation into this

11:01

is football Australia in particular. They

11:03

allow gambling on every level of

11:06

soccer in Australia from the A

11:09

League and international games all the way down

11:11

to amateur suburban games. And not only that,

11:13

they get a cut on every bet made

11:16

in Australia on those games. So I

11:18

spent a lot of time out at amateur

11:20

soccer tournaments over the past

11:22

year looking at these

11:25

games, looking at the quality of play

11:27

on the pitch and looking at these

11:29

international gambling companies and Australian based gambling

11:31

companies offering betting on these games. And

11:34

what they do is they send out people to

11:36

grab stats and things. Is that right? Yeah,

11:38

well, because these games aren't televised, they

11:40

have these people called

11:43

data scouts who show up and

11:45

sit on the sidelines and basically have an app

11:47

on their phone that automatically feeds in what's

11:49

happening on the pitch. It goes to a

11:51

central database overseas, which gets fed to these

11:53

bookmakers. And there's a huge

11:55

appetite for this. We

11:58

understand from speaking to people in the industry. that

12:00

millions of dollars can be bet on a

12:03

completely random suburban game in out

12:05

of Perth or out of Brisbane

12:07

anywhere because there's just

12:09

this constant insociable appetite to

12:12

bet on anything internationally. And

12:14

at least in Australia the

12:16

governing body football Australia

12:19

says it allows this level

12:21

of betting on this on this section

12:24

of the game down to this amateur level because it

12:27

gives them some visibility. It can see

12:29

which bookmakers are offering bets on

12:31

these games and if there's any integrity

12:33

risks around that. But internationally there's no

12:36

oversight of these international betting companies that

12:38

are offering bets on these lower level

12:40

tournaments so it's very hard to for

12:43

football Australia or for law enforcement or

12:45

for these clubs themselves to have any

12:47

insight or control over who's betting on

12:49

their games. If we

12:51

look at it slightly from a different perspective here

12:53

Alex there's huge amounts of money that we're talking

12:55

about but what does that mean for the leagues?

12:58

Have they been allowed to do allowed

13:00

them to do things

13:02

that they wouldn't have

13:04

been possible otherwise? Yes

13:07

so you know if you have a look at what

13:09

happens on the pitch these days like everything's a

13:11

lot more glitzy you know there's a

13:14

lot more money that does feed into the

13:16

game and a lot of that comes from

13:18

gambling. But sports would still exist without you

13:20

know the gambling fees. It would look quite

13:22

different it wouldn't look as you know as

13:24

glam as it does but you compare that

13:26

to something like the racing industry and if

13:29

gambling didn't exist there then you really wouldn't

13:31

have a product going at all. So

13:33

it has changed what things look like and

13:35

there's also more money coming in

13:38

for player contracts it's attracting

13:40

you know more athletes and

13:42

we're seeing higher levels of skill coming

13:44

through too. So it has led to

13:46

you know you would argue

13:48

a better spectacle in a way

13:51

but you know not everyone feels very comfortable about

13:53

where that's coming from so you know

13:55

is it worth it it really becomes an

13:57

individual judgment there. And there's lots of claims. from

14:01

leagues and clubs as to how that money is

14:03

being used and often it will be cited that

14:05

it's being used for player

14:08

development and really positive things.

14:10

Is there transparency around

14:12

how that money is used, Perron? Well

14:16

it depends which organisation you're looking at. One

14:18

of the things that we had real trouble

14:20

finding out is exactly where this money is

14:23

going, where it's coming from because often it's

14:25

not broken down in these sporting

14:27

organisations accounts. Some of them used

14:30

to break these figures down,

14:32

particularly these product fees. We found it really

14:34

hard to actually work out where this

14:36

money is coming in from

14:39

and then where it's going out. I mean a

14:41

lot of it is just kind of going

14:44

into the consolidated revenue of these organisations so

14:46

it's really hard to separate it out. I

14:48

guess the question is whether or

14:51

not we've reached a situation where the

14:53

industry or where the sporting bodies and some

14:55

of the clubs have become dependent on it.

14:58

I guess an

15:00

answer to that might be demonstrated in

15:02

the fact that a lot of clubs,

15:04

pretty much all the Victorian clubs in

15:06

the AFL and some of the New South Wales

15:09

based clubs have signed a pledge not to accept

15:12

any money from gambling companies. They

15:14

seem to be doing okay but

15:17

that does really put them at odds

15:19

with the AFL and the NRL in

15:21

some cases who have obviously embraced

15:24

these advertising relationships and

15:26

some of that money from the NRL and the

15:29

AFL does trickle down to these clubs so there's

15:31

sort of this interdependent relationship but the

15:33

message from a lot of these clubs is well,

15:35

we can survive without it. So it does raise

15:37

that question, can the whole league and the whole

15:41

sporting landscape in Australia survive without it? As

15:43

Pat McGrath reported with ABC Investigations

15:45

who has been looking at sport

15:47

and gambling and we're also joined

15:50

this morning by Alex Russell, Associate

15:52

Professor in researching gambling.

15:54

I'm taking your calls, I'd love

15:56

to hear about the impact of

15:58

gambling and sport. And whether you

16:01

think banning advertising would make much

16:03

of a difference to that impact.

16:05

Well, Anne has done in Melbourne.

16:07

Anne, what's your perspective on this?

16:10

Well, I commented on

16:12

the problem because as a regular

16:14

SBS streaming service viewer, I'm

16:17

just amazed at how many gambling ads we

16:19

see at the moment. We would see them

16:22

every evening because we're watching a series, a

16:24

particular series, but it doesn't matter what we

16:26

watch. You see the same ads no matter

16:28

what program you choose. But

16:31

I guess what's really appalling about this is

16:34

that SBS use, not

16:36

totally, but partially through the public first

16:38

and was set up as, you

16:40

know, with Lockdee Aims as an

16:42

inclusive service

16:46

to provide good quality

16:48

content for our community. So I

16:50

find the intrusion of

16:52

the gambling ads absolutely unbelievable.

16:57

Thank you, Anne. It's really, you know, it does

17:00

feel like it's coming into

17:02

every sector of our media

17:04

landscape. Is that you're

17:06

finding that right across the board? Yeah,

17:09

and particularly social media where a lot

17:11

of the eyeballs of this target

17:13

market for these companies spend a lot of time. I

17:16

think Alex might have a better insight

17:18

into this than me, but I mean,

17:20

it does seem that the target audience

17:22

for the sports betting industry remains young

17:24

people, particularly men. And

17:27

there may be an element of there's a lot

17:29

of talk of incoming restrictions

17:31

on gambling advertising. So

17:34

maybe there's a push to advertise

17:36

as much as possible, potentially try

17:39

to consolidate some market position and market

17:41

share before those advertising restrictions

17:43

potentially come in. Lots

17:45

of text coming through, one from

17:47

Margaret, not online, but a local RSL

17:50

holds bingo for kids during school holidays.

17:52

Is this allowed? Getting them

17:54

addicted early. And this from

17:57

Steven in Tasmania. When I taught ratios

17:59

and rates. to my students 10 years

18:01

ago, it was a difficult mathematical concept

18:04

for many of them to get their

18:06

heads around. They certainly don't have any

18:08

problems understanding it now and

18:10

they cite sport to use as

18:12

examples in their answers. I don't

18:14

know which is worse, Life Matters

18:16

crew, gambling in sport or governments

18:18

that are addicted to the revenue

18:20

generated from it. Pat

18:22

to you again. Interested to

18:25

know what we're hearing from

18:27

the fans. It seems really clear today

18:29

from our text messages and calls

18:31

that there's a lot of disquiet

18:33

around the relationship. The AFL fans

18:35

association did a survey. What

18:38

did they find? Yes, I

18:41

can't remember the exact statistics on that but they did find

18:43

I think it was around 80% of the

18:45

fans that they spoke to were

18:51

I think objected to the volume

18:53

of gambling advertising their

18:55

games. It does seem just

18:58

from what we're hearing from listeners today

19:00

that there does seem to be a

19:02

lot of negative sentiment around the

19:05

volume of sports betting in sport. Yes,

19:09

it does seem to be having looked at this

19:11

industry for a while, there are a lot of

19:13

people who don't have

19:15

a problem with the amount of gambling. They

19:17

do see it as a way for people

19:19

to engage with the games. They have more

19:22

of a stake in the game. If they've

19:24

got a bet on it, it creates more

19:26

excitement and it helps to

19:28

support the industry by bringing more

19:30

money in. Clearly

19:32

there is a shift

19:35

in sentiment at the moment which perhaps

19:37

prompted this parliamentary inquiry that looked at

19:39

this topic last year which has recommended

19:41

a whole lot of big

19:44

changes to the industry. It

19:47

does seem like it's definitely a topic that people

19:49

have strong views on at the moment. We

19:52

mentioned that parliamentary inquiry Alex,

19:55

but the industry has done

19:58

a lot of its own self-regulation. How

20:00

effective is it? Well,

20:03

let me just if I can touch on the

20:05

parliamentary inquiry first because we didn't form what I'll

20:07

talk about there in a sec So the the

20:09

thing that has been recommended with the parliamentary inquiry

20:11

was to get rid of public advertising So this

20:13

is the kind of thing that's like on TV

20:15

billboards besides the buses those sorts of things That

20:18

are kind of you know, not really targeted

20:20

at particular people like, you know that there

20:23

are aimed at young men usually because

20:25

that's you know the big part of

20:27

the market but anyone can say and there

20:31

is a concern that If

20:33

they are banned then all of this

20:35

massive amount of advertising revenue will go

20:38

into more private Forms of advertising so

20:40

things like emails text messages, you know

20:42

and other things which are not particularly

20:44

easily easy to regulate so

20:48

You know, we've got this problem there where We're

20:51

cutting off this thing where we can actually see

20:53

what the operator is doing potentially

20:55

if that change goes through and Moving

20:59

to this private type of advertising and there's a

21:01

lot of benefits there because it's you know Should

21:03

only be going to people who are interested in

21:05

gambling in the first place You know less targeting

21:07

kids and at least that's the argument

21:09

for it anyway But

21:11

because it's less visible, there's this problem where

21:15

You know less people are seeing it less people who are

21:17

likely to complain they're seeing it and they might try and get

21:19

away with a bit more so a lot of complaints

21:22

to Regulators are

21:24

what often drive You

21:28

know action when when operators are breaking the

21:30

law and if fewer people are seeing it

21:32

and Particularly people

21:34

have less of a reason to complain about it There

21:37

is concern about where it can go. So that's really a

21:39

big problem here is you

21:41

know, there is this real lack of

21:44

transparency around these private kind of practices

21:46

and if You know,

21:48

we're going to move to that more

21:50

and have less of this public advertising

21:52

We are going to need a lot

21:54

more transparency from the industry about what

21:56

they're doing And

21:59

relying on them to self-regulate when you can't

22:01

see what they're doing. Look,

22:03

it's really not a great idea here.

22:06

It's probably for fairly obvious reasons, but

22:08

we should still work with the industry

22:11

on this because they understand these marketing

22:13

practices and how they work. So I'm

22:15

not saying they shouldn't necessarily have a

22:17

voice at the table, but I don't

22:20

think many people would be comfortable with

22:22

the idea of complete self-regulation. This

22:25

sound there of associate professor Alex Russell

22:28

joining us talking about sport gambling and

22:30

Pat McGrath as well joining us from

22:32

ABC investigations. Simone joins us in Sydney.

22:34

How have you seen gambling impact

22:37

your world? The

22:41

perspective that this made me think of was

22:43

what I've seen happen in tennis, where

22:46

people who've obviously bet on tennis players

22:49

and lost their bet get

22:51

absolutely furious at these really

22:53

young athletes who are trying

22:55

their hardest and accuse them

22:57

publicly of cheating and

23:00

getting to their DMs with really

23:03

abusive and hateful comments. It

23:05

seems to be stemming from the fact that they've

23:07

lost money. Pat, you're nodding. Have

23:09

you heard much of this sort of reaction

23:12

from gambling? All the time,

23:14

and particularly even at these lower level

23:17

soccer tournaments I was mentioning earlier where

23:19

there's international gambling on these games,

23:21

even local soccer clubs have

23:24

to moderate their Facebook pages because

23:26

they're getting abuse from all around

23:28

the world about their performance on

23:30

a Tuesday night suburban soccer competition.

23:33

Tennis players in particular, because

23:35

they're playing all the time, they're playing in

23:37

these really low level

23:39

tournaments, sometimes they're copying abuse

23:42

from people on the other side

23:44

of the world, sometimes extremely vitriolic abuse.

23:47

Cricket as well, even

23:49

suburban cricket matches we've discovered are being

23:51

bet on. So it's created

23:53

this whole level of intensity and scrutiny of

23:55

these players who are in most cases just

23:57

doing it for fun. Life

24:00

Matters, just into Parsons filling in

24:03

for Hilary Harper. Greg joins us

24:05

in Long Beach. We were listening

24:07

before Greg where Alex described that

24:09

really direct marketing. Where have

24:11

you been seeing the advertising? Getting

24:14

it on my music

24:16

app and you say

24:21

that you don't want to see give it

24:23

the thumbs down, you try to skip it.

24:26

I'll give the reason as of being offensive but

24:28

it keeps on coming back and

24:30

it just doesn't stop. I

24:34

really do find it offensive because

24:36

it causes so many problems in

24:38

terms of family

24:43

hardships and whatnot. But

24:47

to think that it's on a music

24:49

app where

24:52

anyone can use that

24:54

at children or young

24:58

young fellows I

25:00

think is just really quite shocking.

25:03

Thank you for joining us with that

25:05

perspective. It does feel like it's very

25:07

hard to get away from it. Cassie's

25:09

in Hobart. Cassie what's your take on

25:11

sports betting ads? Scoring

25:13

because I'm confused about the

25:16

double standards in regards to

25:18

we couldn't advertise tobacco, there's

25:21

no longer a Benson and Hedges test and

25:23

we can advertise gambling yet we know

25:25

the health risks for both of those

25:28

products are certainly against their family values

25:30

and I just wonder why we can't

25:33

put the same distinctions in place.

25:35

They're bad for you therefore we

25:38

will no longer allow them to

25:40

happen. That is the central question isn't

25:42

it Cassie? Thank you. Pat

25:44

what's your perspective on that? Has the

25:46

case that was made back in the

25:49

day with the tobacco industry been something

25:51

that's been brought into kind of evidence

25:53

here? Well looking through a lot of

25:55

the submissions to that parliamentary inquiry a lot

25:58

of people made that comparison that that

26:00

gambling is the next tobacco and the next

26:02

alcohol, particularly the tobacco

26:04

advertising which we know has been

26:07

banned. I guess the difference

26:09

here is just the connection

26:11

between the gambling

26:14

industry and the sporting bodies and the

26:16

broadcasters that it does seem far more

26:18

enmeshed than any other advertising relationship in

26:20

the past because there are these flows

26:23

of money between the gambling companies

26:26

and the sporting bodies that it is really

26:28

hard to unpick. So that's

26:30

why it is going to be a huge question

26:33

for the government, how they

26:35

approach these recommendations. They've been considering them for quite

26:37

a long time now because the

26:39

impact for the sporting bodies that

26:41

generate so much revenue from these

26:44

sources and also the broadcasters that

26:46

broadcast these games, they

26:48

generate so much revenue from the gambling

26:50

advertising that it does create a huge

26:52

threat to their profitability and their sustainability

26:54

if this gambling advertising ban does come

26:56

in. Alex, I'm interested to

26:58

know too how much international

27:01

gambling impacts us here.

27:03

The NBA, the American Basketball Association

27:06

recently announced that the league pass,

27:08

their online portal would integrate sports

27:10

books into the live broadcast so

27:12

that you could gamble through the

27:14

app. Are international decisions like

27:17

that likely to impact the policies that

27:19

we see here in Australia? Potentially,

27:23

I mean, we have a

27:26

really interesting relationship with sports betting in

27:28

Australia. So when it comes to gambling

27:30

in general, we're the biggest losers worldwide.

27:32

We lose more per capita than people from

27:34

any other country. A large reason for this is

27:36

that we have pokies in pubs and clubs.

27:38

That's unusual in other countries.

27:41

But we do have a stronger relationship with things like

27:43

sports betting as well. Gambling is just sort of part

27:45

of our DNA. So we

27:48

got into legal sports betting sort of back

27:50

in the 80s and one of

27:52

the first countries to have online sports betting, which

27:55

meant that when we brought it in, we

27:57

had quite restrictive laws in place.

28:00

So we with online gambling we

28:02

don't have online pokies or online

28:05

casinos because they were seen as

28:07

too dangerous You know, you need like someone there watching

28:09

you who will step in whether or not they actually

28:11

do step in the free experiencing problems It's a whole

28:13

different thing But that's

28:15

the idea we have restrictions on what's allowed

28:17

and the same is the case for sports

28:19

betting So if you want to

28:21

place a bet on sports, you can bet on you know Who's

28:24

gonna win how much they're gonna win by

28:26

maybe who's gonna score first But you have

28:29

to place that bet before the match

28:31

starts and once the match starts You

28:33

can't place a bet online anymore, but you

28:35

can overseas so You

28:38

know overseas operate like you have to make a phone call to place

28:40

a bet here You can still place a live bet you have to

28:42

make a phone call. So you talking to somebody Whereas

28:45

overseas, you know, particularly in America sports

28:47

betting came in after the 2018 Supreme

28:50

Court decision Online sports betting

28:52

and different states are allowing different things

28:56

But a lot of them have just really

28:58

jumped in headfirst and they're allowing Really

29:00

fast-paced forms of betting things that just aren't

29:02

allowed here in Australia. They're allowing that online

29:06

and some of these innovations Like

29:08

what you've described there, you know showing odds and

29:11

the ability to bet directly from the viewing platform

29:13

from the streaming service Is

29:15

probably something you won't see here straight away because

29:17

it's a it's a form of live betting like

29:19

you're watching the game and betting online While that's

29:22

happening But it does

29:24

really highlight how wagering

29:26

operators are incredibly innovative You

29:29

know all the laws around sports betting that they or

29:31

any type of gambling They have to be black and

29:33

white, you know, and they're very good at finding gray

29:36

areas and trying to exploit them So

29:38

it's a real game of cat and mouse But you know,

29:40

they're very good in terms of coming up with

29:42

new ideas or making apps that sort of just

29:44

work Well, you know, so you gotta give them

29:47

credit for that Wow in a

29:49

way perhaps Alex. I'm wondering Yeah,

29:52

I'm wondering We were

29:54

talking before about the tobacco industry and you

29:56

know, there was a line in the sand

29:58

drawn by and by you

30:00

know codes and leagues to say we're not going to do it.

30:03

Do you think that in some way we

30:05

don't take the harm

30:07

that we see with gambling

30:10

seriously enough here in Australia?

30:13

Definitely. So when we

30:15

talk about the level of gambling harm in

30:17

our community the typical kind

30:19

of figures that have been talked about are what

30:22

we call the percentage of, we don't like using

30:24

the term but the term that's often used is

30:26

the percentage of problem gamblers in the population. So

30:29

the problem with the term problem gamblers is

30:31

pretty stigmatizing so we tend to say people

30:33

who are experiencing gambling harm instead but

30:36

if you hear the term problem gambler

30:38

it's you know synonymous there. So typically

30:40

that's about 1% of the population experiences

30:42

these really high levels of gambling harm

30:45

and you know 1% it's one of those kind of

30:47

figures where it just doesn't sound like a lot you know when

30:49

you're saying something's got a very small chance you say it's got

30:51

like a 1% chance of happening right

30:54

but you know those 1% of people

30:56

we're talking really high level harms these

30:58

are the people experiencing bankruptcy and you

31:00

know really big types of things here

31:02

massive relationship breakdowns you know losing their

31:04

jobs those kind of things but

31:06

there are levels of gambling harm before we hit that so

31:09

what we call low risk and moderate risk

31:11

gamblers and depending on you know the study

31:13

and the population it's about 10 to

31:15

15 percent of the population which fall in there

31:17

so you know when you think about what 20

31:20

something million Australian adults and you know

31:22

about 10 to 15 percent of them

31:25

experiencing harm from gambling and remember

31:27

that only about 55% of us

31:29

gamble so you know what about 20 or

31:32

so percent of people who gamble experience some

31:34

level of harm that's a

31:36

big problem and it's often ignored quite a

31:38

lot so we talk about as well all

31:40

of this money flowing in from gambling but

31:43

the biggest proportion of that comes from people

31:45

who are experiencing harm the people who can't

31:47

afford it so it's I guess one thing

31:49

to talk about where all this money is

31:52

coming from from gambling we have

31:54

to remember that it's a really disproportionately affecting

31:56

people who are experiencing this

31:58

harm and it's coming from the people who can at

32:00

least afford it. So many text

32:02

messages and pretty much I would say

32:04

we are very weighed on one side

32:06

here. Resports betting advertising,

32:09

we have a cost of living crisis.

32:11

Surely now is the time to limit

32:13

these ads and convert the ads to

32:15

how to help people manage and avoid

32:17

addiction. I never hear of people having

32:19

a happy life gambling. I only hear

32:21

sad stories of gambling, addiction and bad

32:23

consequences. That's from Liz in

32:25

Gippsland. Surely on a final

32:27

note there, Pat, fans don't like it and

32:29

that's been pretty clear this morning. Players

32:32

and teams don't always seem to like

32:34

it for lots of the reasons we

32:36

spoke about. Why does it

32:38

remain so common and is there a

32:40

way that we can do that

32:43

unpicking that you mentioned might be very

32:45

difficult? Yeah, well clearly the

32:47

industry is facing an existential threat in

32:49

Australia at the moment. It's

32:52

staring down some big changes from

32:54

the government. It's

32:57

visibility is about to completely

33:00

change. The

33:02

text line is showing us are upset

33:04

with the amount of volume of this

33:06

advertising and how much it's become a

33:08

part of Australian culture. I

33:11

guess the question is why

33:14

is it that Australia has this tendency to

33:16

see this as an acceptable level

33:18

of involvement by the gambling industry

33:20

and at what point does that become too much?

33:24

We are facing a bit of a reckoning on that

33:26

point now. Alex, if

33:28

you could wave a magic wand,

33:30

what changes would you like to

33:33

see implemented? Less

33:36

advertising is an obvious one, but I'd really like

33:38

to see a lot more proactive efforts

33:40

in terms of trying to contact people before

33:44

they're experiencing harm. With online

33:46

gambling, we have

33:48

the ability to use algorithms to watch

33:51

changes in betting patterns or look for

33:53

really excessive betting. In

33:56

POKIES for example, we have a maximum of

33:58

$1 per spin. you want to

34:00

place a $10,000 or $100,000 sports bet and

34:02

you can find a bookie who'll take it, you

34:05

can. There's no reason to have that level of

34:07

gambling per bet. It's kind of ridiculous. The

34:10

other thing I'd really like to see is more

34:14

of that proactive getting in there and

34:17

actually being proud of trying to head off

34:19

this harm rather than milking people for as

34:21

much money as they can. And

34:24

related to that is sports betting

34:26

in particular we've seen is not

34:28

really a fair playing

34:31

field for many punters. So there

34:33

was some great ABC work done a few

34:36

years ago by Steve Knaim who showed that

34:39

online operators will cut you off if you're

34:41

winning too much, but you can lose all

34:43

you want. So, you

34:45

know, it's not most Australians have this idea

34:47

of a fair go in Australia and

34:49

if you beat the bookie, you beat the bookie well done. But

34:52

the bookies will cut you off these days

34:54

if you're winning too much. So, you know,

34:56

everything is stacked against the players. A lot

34:58

of this isn't necessarily recognized and I think we

35:01

need a lot more transparency and fairness in it.

35:03

Associate Professor Alex Russell, thank you

35:05

very much for joining us today.

35:08

Gambling researcher at the Experimental Gambling

35:10

Research Lab at CQ University and

35:12

Pat McGrath. Thanks for joining us.

35:15

Reporter with ABC Investigations, you can

35:17

find his work on the ABC

35:19

website and his Four Corners report

35:21

on iview. Thank you both for

35:24

joining us. If you

35:26

or someone you know is worried about your gambling,

35:28

you can get support from Gambling Help Online 1800

35:30

858 858 and a very pertinent number to

35:36

give out after reading this text message. A

35:39

young man very close to me has

35:41

gambled all of the funds which we

35:43

have given over time to go toward

35:45

a home extensive web of lies to

35:47

his new wife and family. He claimed

35:49

scamming. That's from an anonymous text. The

35:52

National Debt Helpline is also at 1800

35:54

007 007. Do

35:59

you see the person? We'll again for

36:01

Hilary Harper here on Life

36:03

Matters. Have you

36:05

ignored expectations and forged

36:07

your own path? Your

36:10

next guest has done just that. After

36:13

following the path that was set out for

36:15

her and realising it just did not bring

36:17

her much joy, she did an about face.

36:20

And we'll speak to Chin Chin about

36:22

her new book Model Minority in just

36:24

a moment. Are you an

36:26

early career PhD researcher or do you

36:28

know someone who is? It's

36:30

time to apply for this year's ABC Top

36:32

5. This is

36:35

a unique opportunity for outstanding

36:37

scientists, humanities academics, artists and

36:39

cultural researchers. You could be

36:41

one of the amazing people we get to

36:44

meet as you spend two weeks with the

36:46

ABC learning about the media and communicating your

36:48

work to a wide audience. In

36:50

full details online, just search for

36:53

ABC Top 5 to apply. We're

36:58

all born into certain expectations

37:00

whether they come from our

37:02

family or society at large.

37:05

For some of us those expectations

37:07

are positive. We'll ace

37:09

university or we'll find an exciting

37:11

career or we'll build the perfect

37:13

family of our own, maybe even

37:15

all three. But for

37:17

others society has much lower expectations and

37:20

is happy to let you know about

37:22

them. But what does it

37:24

mean to set aside the story you've been

37:26

told about yourself and find your

37:29

own path? Chin

37:31

Chin was following the path laid out for

37:33

her. She studied hard, she

37:35

went into law, got a scholarship

37:37

to Harvard but somewhere along the

37:39

way Chin Chin realised that

37:42

the path she was on wasn't actually

37:44

bringing her a lot of joy and

37:46

so she decided to go off script.

37:49

She's just published a new

37:51

memoir, Model Minority Gone Rogue.

37:54

Welcome Chin Chin. Thank you

37:56

so much for having me Chin Chin. It's a

37:58

pleasure to be here. You describe

38:00

yourself as the model daughter growing up.

38:03

I wasn't one of those. Can you

38:05

let me know? Whose expectations

38:07

were you living up to? Yeah,

38:10

well, as the model daughter, and

38:12

I say model student and model

38:14

minority, I had so

38:16

many expectations that I was trying to

38:18

live up to, firstly from my parents

38:20

who were immigrants who had come in

38:23

the 80s after Bob

38:26

Hawke had allowed Chinese

38:28

students to stay in the country.

38:30

My father was a Chinese student

38:32

studying at the time, and

38:35

they had a lot of expectations for

38:37

me to find a stable, secure job.

38:40

And then it was also the expectations

38:42

being a good student of doing well

38:44

at school and finding a job that,

38:47

yeah, was on

38:50

that path. And probably ones that

38:52

are expectations that I'd taken

38:54

from the media and society in general about

38:56

being a good girl as well. It's

38:59

actually such a crucial aspect

39:01

to understanding this, isn't it?

39:04

The parents and their really

39:07

important motivation, I suppose, from their perspective for

39:09

you. Can you tell us a little bit

39:11

about them? Because their story is

39:14

so much part of yours. Absolutely.

39:17

And my story

39:19

is the story not just of

39:21

me, but my ancestors too, who

39:23

have strived and persevered to stay

39:26

alive and to, yeah,

39:28

bring the opportunities that were gifted to me.

39:30

And I felt a lot

39:32

of burden from their sacrifices

39:34

too. Growing up,

39:36

my mother was a university... My mother

39:39

and my father were both the first

39:41

in their family to study at university

39:43

after the Cultural Revolution when all schools

39:45

had closed. And they were lucky

39:47

enough, they were, yeah, the rare few

39:49

that got in. And then

39:52

they were able to come over to

39:54

Australia, which was a huge... I mean,

39:56

it's like winning the lottery. So

40:01

yeah, my dad got a

40:03

PhD at the ANU. He

40:05

studied entomology, which was insects, and my

40:07

mother got a job at

40:09

the CSRO also in science

40:12

and plants. So

40:15

although they didn't encourage me to

40:17

study science, there was a

40:19

lot of pressure to meet their

40:22

expectations of finding that stable job.

40:25

Were you very aware of that story of

40:27

their life as you were growing up? I

40:31

wouldn't say that it was on a

40:33

day-to-day. I think with

40:36

anyone that's gone through difficult situations,

40:38

many families don't talk about it,

40:40

but I was definitely interested. I

40:42

read a lot about modern Chinese

40:45

history. Even though I grew

40:47

up in Canberra, it had shaped

40:49

China and its history, it had shaped

40:51

me in ways that I

40:53

was yet to find out, but I

40:55

was very curious. There's

40:58

a fantastic text here saying,

41:00

I'm going rogue as a model

41:02

minority son of immigrants. Now

41:04

a stay-at-home husband after studying at

41:07

top universities and exhausting myself to

41:09

the point of breakdown. Incredibly

41:12

brave of Qin Qin to tell her story.

41:15

It's inspiring to me who has struggled

41:17

to break free of my conditioning. Thank

41:20

you. I want to

41:22

touch on two stories from your childhood,

41:24

Qin Qin, because I think they're really

41:26

quite telling. The first, I want

41:28

to know why you learnt piano. Yeah,

41:32

I laugh because it is such a

41:35

stereotype for a reason and that's because

41:37

piano, my mother wanted me to

41:39

learn piano. I hated it

41:41

at the time. I mean, all through

41:43

growing up, having to practice while everyone

41:45

was, for example, doing fun things.

41:50

But ultimately I realised it was because

41:52

it would give me the language and

41:54

the kind of social capital

41:56

that she didn't have as an immigrant that

41:58

didn't speak English very well and

42:00

would give me access to

42:03

opportunities and to people that

42:05

were closed off to her. I

42:08

have found that to be the case.

42:10

There's also actually research that if you

42:12

study music, it's good for mass as

42:14

well because it probably finds the same

42:17

synapses in your brain. That

42:20

was another subject that you didn't necessarily

42:22

feel naturally connected to,

42:24

but you absolutely went hard on

42:26

it, didn't you? That's

42:29

right, and I laugh again because I wasn't one of

42:31

the... That's the other

42:33

stereotype of Asians being good at maths and

42:36

that's so not true. Not everyone can

42:38

be Eddie Wu and I certainly wasn't. I

42:40

had to stress struggle with maths and

42:43

I did Kumon, which is an

42:45

after school maths class. I

42:48

was always in the library reading books. That's what

42:51

I love doing and books were my friends, but

42:53

yeah, maths

42:55

was also another way to find a stable

42:57

job. It's

42:59

interesting because when you finished up high school,

43:02

you made two lists. So you were

43:04

very aware of the

43:07

path that perhaps you longed for because one of

43:09

the lists was what I want to be and

43:12

then the other one was obviously the few...

43:14

And the other list was the few banal

43:17

occupations I can do toiling all day in

43:19

an air condition office. Tell

43:21

us about that and why you ended

43:23

up leaning into that banal list. Yeah,

43:28

well, yeah, it's amazing when I was

43:30

writing the book, I looked through my

43:32

journals, like being in the library,

43:34

I think journal keeping goes together with

43:37

making sense of the world through words, but

43:39

I looked through the list and I was

43:42

shocked because I did have dreams. I wanted

43:44

to be, for example, on

43:47

a children's TV presenter or

43:49

a foreign correspondent. And

43:52

I very quickly realized that wasn't not

43:54

only what my parents wanted me to

43:56

do, but what... already

44:00

internalised that it wasn't

44:02

my job to do what I

44:04

wanted to do. I needed to

44:07

work in an air-conditioned

44:09

toilet office. I had the

44:12

white-collar dreams that my parents and

44:14

society had meant for me, and

44:16

it was only after going

44:18

through a lot of failures and career

44:20

pivots and unlearning that I was able to

44:23

break free of that. That's what

44:25

I'm really interested in. What was that kind

44:27

of crux moment that made this

44:29

shift for you? Because as we heard

44:31

from that text, this is a really

44:33

brave about-face. It

44:37

does take a lot of courage, but I'd also say

44:39

it takes a lot of desperation. I had the gift

44:42

of desperation in many different moments.

44:45

I remember being in a tall office tower

44:47

in Sydney when I was working as a

44:49

corporate lawyer and looking out at the window

44:51

washes. They were ad-sailing, and they looked like

44:53

they were having so much more fun than

44:56

me. My friend, my

45:00

colleague at the time, when we'd swipe in

45:02

to the elevators to

45:05

go up, she said, Lisa, because that's

45:07

another thing. I was known by my

45:09

English name at the time. I've only

45:11

recently reclaimed Xinxin, but she said, we're

45:13

walking in and I can smell the

45:16

stench of decaying dreams. That

45:19

is a very harsh reckoning

45:22

in a lot of ways.

45:24

Xinxin, the book is an

45:26

incredible insight into this transition for

45:29

you. Model minority gone rogue. How

45:31

do you see yourself? What's your

45:33

list? What's the header of your next

45:36

list for what will come in

45:38

the future? That's

45:42

difficult because I used to be so ambitious

45:44

and make lists. Lists was what I

45:46

did. Lists was what I knew. What

45:49

would it be like to not have a list

45:51

anymore? What would it be like to trust that

45:53

the universe has my back? That's the journey that

45:56

I write about in the book of how I

45:58

got to this point of more experience. acceptance

46:00

and knowing and trusting that I

46:02

didn't have to live out of

46:04

fear anymore. It was

46:06

only through questioning and those

46:08

times, I mean there were many more than

46:11

just looking out at the window washes, that

46:14

I found out what I truly wanted

46:17

to do. Yeah,

46:19

and how to, I guess

46:21

the top of my list, if I did have a

46:23

list, I don't want to be like that

46:25

anymore, but would be to help

46:28

to live life out of

46:30

love, not fear. Ah,

46:32

that is a list I think

46:34

we all need and underneath that

46:36

window washing perhaps because I agree

46:38

it does look like a thrill

46:40

of a time. It's a

46:43

wonderful book and as we

46:45

heard from that hector as well, just a

46:47

really inspiring look for all of us as

46:49

to how we shake off the shackles

46:52

of expectation. Jin Jin, thank you

46:54

so much for joining us on

46:56

Life Matters today. Thank

46:58

you so much Jacinta and I hope

47:01

listeners who resonate can

47:03

get my book from all good bookstores. Oh,

47:05

good plug, good plug. Jin Jin, author

47:07

and the book that you need to

47:09

go to all bookstores to get and

47:11

ask for is model minority gone rogue,

47:14

sorry gone rogue, how an unfulfilled

47:17

daughter of a tiger mother went

47:19

way off script. You are in

47:21

Life Matters just into Parsons here.

47:25

You want to actually look forward

47:27

to doing your emails. Up next,

47:29

writer and ex RN voice Benjamin

47:32

Law shares the change he made

47:34

that turned a chore into a

47:36

pleasure for Here's What I Know

47:39

You. Do you often feel

47:41

overwhelmed by the Daily News report? Too

47:43

many headlines with too little context.

47:45

Well join me Sam Hawley for ABC

47:47

News Daily. You know there's

47:49

middlemen involved and you have to make sure

47:51

that the farmers are getting a good deal.

47:54

A podcast that walks you through one story

47:56

per episode to help you with a deeper

47:58

understanding of the issues affecting your life. world

48:00

all delivered in a comprehensive yet easy

48:02

to digest 15 minutes. So

48:04

join me for ABC News Daily. Hear

48:07

it now on the ABC Listen App. Hey

48:11

I'm Benjamin Law, I'm a writer and

48:13

broadcaster. I'm the former co-host of Radio

48:15

Nationals Stop Everything with Beverly Wang. Keep

48:17

listening to the show it's even better

48:20

now that I'm not there. And

48:23

here's what I know. A

48:26

small change that has transformed

48:29

my life is how I

48:31

approach emails. And

48:33

as much as it's about emails

48:35

I feel like in our modern

48:37

age we are bombarded with communication,

48:39

text, WhatsApp, emails, DMs, the list

48:41

goes on and on. And

48:43

I find it pretty overwhelming even

48:45

though I'm a millennial and digital

48:47

native and I should be able

48:49

to just like keep up with all of that

48:51

stuff. I find it pretty intense. So

48:54

with emails especially I treat emails

48:56

nowadays like how I brush my

48:58

teeth which is one big batch in

49:00

the morning and one big batch at

49:02

night. If it's an emergency,

49:04

if it requires my attention right there right

49:06

now I will reply straight away but

49:09

otherwise I'm going to do them at the start

49:11

of the day with a big cup of tea

49:13

and at the end of the day with a

49:15

big cup of tea. And that

49:17

makes all the difference and kind of makes

49:20

it pleasurable as well which I didn't know

49:22

email could be. Something

49:24

I always make time for nowadays is exercise

49:26

which would

49:30

disgust like the teen slash 20

49:32

something version on myself because when

49:35

I was growing up in Queensland all forms

49:37

of exercise were presented to us in

49:40

the form of sport. I am

49:42

a competitive person but the idea of

49:44

being competitive physically and with my body

49:46

and having other people rely on me,

49:49

absolutely horrific. So because I

49:51

didn't like participating in team

49:53

sports, I just assumed that

49:55

I didn't like exercise. Plus my

49:58

20s and my doctors like you really do need

50:00

more exercise. I'm like, oh, is it walking

50:02

exercise? She said, no, that's fine. I'm living

50:04

with that. But I

50:06

started getting into swimming and I

50:08

started getting into the gym. And

50:10

nowadays I see a relationship between

50:12

the work that I do, which

50:14

is completely sedentary at the desk

50:16

and using my brain over time.

50:19

And what exercise allows me to do is

50:21

move every other part of my body except

50:23

my brain to the point where I'm

50:26

only thinking about moving my body and

50:28

keep my heart above water and

50:30

not dropping these weights. And

50:32

I'm realizing that creative work that I do actually

50:36

does rely on me doing something

50:38

with my body that's absolutely not

50:40

involved in my brain whatsoever. The

50:44

best advice I ever received was when I

50:46

was in

50:49

the middle of working on a TV show, my

50:51

very first TV show called The Family Law. And

50:54

when you work on a TV show for the first

50:56

time, it's quite overwhelming the advice and

50:58

feedback that you get from other people.

51:01

Because television has a lot of stakeholders.

51:03

You've got your producers, you've got the

51:05

network, you've got the production company, you've

51:08

got executive producers, and sometimes the notes

51:10

clash. And I remember

51:13

Deborah Oswald, who's just a

51:15

master at screenwriting. She's the

51:17

creator of Offspring. I

51:19

told her that I was having trouble and she

51:21

gave me advice that I think can

51:23

be applied to all of life, which is

51:25

when people are giving you feedback, use the

51:27

traffic light system. There's red feedback,

51:29

which is stop. I know that's wrong and

51:32

I'm not taking that advice and I know

51:34

exactly why. There's green feedback,

51:36

which is, I am so

51:38

glad you told me that because I agree 100%.

51:41

And we're going through with that. And

51:43

then there's yellow feedback, which is I'm not

51:46

sure, but it's worth the conversation. And I

51:48

think that's how we can approach feedback in

51:51

every aspect of life, really. Something

51:56

I wish I knew earlier is that

51:58

you don't need to... let everyone's

52:00

opinions of you affect

52:03

you. Let me explain. I

52:05

am the type of person, the type of

52:07

personality, who really does, to

52:09

my kind of shame and embarrassment,

52:12

does care what other people think about me. I

52:14

wish I was not that person because I actually

52:16

find that trait in myself pretty cringe. But

52:19

I remember when Beverly Wayne and I

52:21

were co-hosting Stop Everything, we

52:24

had an interview with Briggs, and

52:26

I remember Briggs saying to Beverly,

52:29

why would I take criticism from you if

52:31

I wouldn't take advice from you?

52:34

And that is my baseline nowadays.

52:37

If you are the kind of person I respect,

52:39

I'm definitely gonna take criticism from you. And

52:42

if you're the type of person I don't respect, order

52:44

off a duck's back. Right,

52:49

Benjamin Law there for Here's What

52:51

I Know. It's our new series

52:54

where notable people share the wisdom

52:56

they've gained through their lives and

52:58

how they gained it. There's plenty

53:00

of hot tips coming in. Find

53:02

out more on the ABC Listen

53:04

app. And more text

53:06

messages coming through today, talking

53:09

about gambling and sport.

53:12

This one, me and a bunch

53:14

of others in my area have

53:16

lost deposits to a local carpenter

53:18

with a gambling problem. The

53:20

whipples spread further than you might think.

53:22

It's not just the gambler who loses

53:24

money. And this one

53:27

here, I strongly object to the bet

53:29

with a mate ads. Get

53:31

one addicted, get another one addicted

53:33

as well. Thanks Margaret for that

53:35

text. And this one from

53:38

James in Rye in Victoria, just banned

53:40

all ads on all media. Now, no

53:43

little by little, it'll only

53:45

get worse through algorithms, et

53:47

cetera. If you've lost

53:49

a pet, you will know the enormous grief

53:51

that that can bring you and your loved

53:53

ones. That grief can be

53:55

misunderstood by others though, because no pet

53:58

is just a dog. They're part of the family.

54:00

family. Next time on Life

54:02

Matters, we'll unpack what's termed

54:04

disenfranchised grief and how you can feel for

54:06

me. Discover

54:30

more great ABC podcasts, live

54:33

radio and exclusives on the ABC

54:35

Listen app.