0:06

Welcome to episode two of Life

0:08

on the Spectrum, the Autism Family

0:10

Podcast. I'm your host,

0:12

Katie Bennison. I'm a broadcaster,

0:15

special education assistant and

0:18

the mom of a daughter with autism.

0:20

Today we're talking about the social

0:23

aspects of living with autism.

0:26

Not being able to pick up on social cues.

0:28

It's kind of hard to be in a team, especially if they're

0:30

chanting a lot because for me, my heightened

0:32

senses, my ears. And I know this

0:35

is for a lot of autistic people, but I don't like loud

0:37

sounds and it's kind of hard to be in

0:39

teams if they're chanting and you have to be

0:41

in the middle of that.

0:43

This is a bit of a hard one to answer because

0:45

there are a lot of challenging

0:47

things, but the thing is I don't normally

0:49

think about other people. I'm

0:52

sorry to say that, I don't really like reflecting

0:55

on myself like this. It makes me feel kind

0:57

of uneasy, but I still feel like

0:59

I'm going to do this anyway. I am bit

1:01

of a self- centered B- word at times.

1:03

So I'm not exactly the

1:06

easiest person to live with and because

1:08

of this, not many people like me and

1:10

stuff like that. And I find that

1:12

very hard because I'm a social person, no matter

1:14

how anti- social I may seem, I'm

1:16

actually social.

1:18

Something that just happens with me constantly

1:21

is just I'm five steps ahead

1:24

of whoever's telling me

1:26

anything or teaching

1:28

me anything. Well, a

1:30

lot of the time, let's put it that

1:32

way.

1:33

My teacher was teaching my class, in

1:35

cooking class, how to boil water and

1:37

I'm like, " If you don't know how to

1:40

do this, you don't deserve to live."

1:41

Yes, yes. Yeah,

1:45

exactly.

1:46

Sometimes it feels like I'm pushing the conversation

1:49

too much, like I'm talking too much. Or

1:52

other times it feels like as

1:54

soon as I start talking they start talking.

1:57

I just don't know what to say to them. I'm

1:59

not sure how to continue the conversation for a

2:02

long while. And usually when I would

2:04

drop into the conversation, I would forget

2:06

about what I wanted to say earlier.

2:08

Especially when you're in a group of

2:11

people, the thing about me is I always

2:13

seem to get pushed out of groups. I try

2:15

to join in but they just keep talking and ignore me.

2:17

Like what the heck is with that? I

2:19

mean I don't know why that always happens

2:22

with me. I mean with everyone else, they leave spaces

2:24

for them to jump in. Why don't

2:26

they do that with me? I try

2:28

but they just go yeah, it's cool, and

2:31

then continue talking or they just completely

2:34

ignore me and pretend I didn't say anything, completely

2:36

run over me with the rest of the conversation. It

2:38

feels very frustrating for me. So normally

2:41

I don't hang out with more than one person at a time. It's easier just

2:44

to have a one on one conversation.

2:46

No room for anyone to hear

2:48

the beautiful things you have to say.

2:51

Yeah, I agree. Like I

2:54

kind of want to like just be on one on one

2:56

conversations just because of that.

3:00

That's the first time anyone's said anything I said

3:02

was beautiful. Normally people think that stuff I

3:04

say is weird. At least I think they do. I'm not a

3:06

mind reader.

3:08

Those are a few of the voices from a round

3:10

table discussion we held earlier this

3:12

year with a group of teens with autism,

3:15

and as you heard, the social aspects

3:17

of autism spectrum disorder can

3:20

be pretty challenging sometimes. Someone

3:22

who knows a lot about navigating

3:24

these challenges is Vicky Ryan.

3:28

Vicky, I just wanted to go

3:30

into a little bit about your background.

3:33

Thank you so much for joining us.

3:35

You founded Girls

3:37

Club, this amazing accessible

3:40

club, especially for girls with neurological

3:43

or developmental differences. Your

3:45

own daughter, Charlotte, is on

3:47

the spectrum. So can you tell

3:49

me first of all a little bit about

3:52

your daughter, Charlotte?

3:53

So Charlotte just turned eight this week.

3:55

Cool!

3:56

Yeah, she's a big girl now. So Charlotte,

3:59

when she was five years old when I started Girls Club

4:01

and very much so still today has a really

4:03

challenging time interacting

4:05

in mainstream environments. Specifically,

4:08

it was a dance class. She loves to dance, she

4:10

loves music. She's a happy,

4:12

carefree soul, loves to dance around. So I thought,

4:14

great. The dance class, I found

4:16

an adapted dance class and I was thrilled.

4:18

I reached out to them and in that

4:20

I found that while

4:22

it was adapted, they still had certain expectations

4:25

of the people who are coming and that they were

4:27

expectations I knew Charlotte would

4:29

not be able to achieve.

4:31

Can you give me an example?

4:33

Oh for sure. So follow instructions.

4:36

Sit still. I'm like, in a dance

4:38

class you're supposed to sit? So it

4:40

was just a few different things like that and I

4:42

thought wow, even within our own

4:45

quote community within

4:48

a specialized class, an

4:50

adapted class, we still don't fit.

4:52

So that can tell you a little bit about

4:55

Charlotte that she needs a lot of support

4:57

to participate in things. And I thought where

4:59

can we go? There isn't anything

5:01

for her. And that's what led me

5:03

to Girls Club.

5:04

Would she try to socialize

5:06

with other kids at

5:08

all?

5:09

No. No. There was not a lot of trying

5:12

to connect with kids socially

5:14

necessarily. Like I said, she was kind of afraid

5:17

of them in a way because there were loud

5:19

and unpredictable and we used to laugh because at times

5:21

she was the loudest and most unpredictable of

5:23

all the children. And yet she was afraid of

5:25

them when they became boisterous.

5:27

So she would pull away and otherwise

5:29

she would observe them but always from afar.

5:32

So what was your vision

5:34

for Girls Club when you started it?

5:37

I decided to start Girls Club because I

5:39

wanted Charlotte to have an opportunity

5:41

to make a friend. It was as simple as that.

5:44

And all of the other opportunities

5:46

we had tried to do that. We had preschool

5:48

dance, the swimming, any

5:51

other times where we could get her around children

5:53

her age, they had not been successful.

5:56

And I couldn't really put my finger on why

5:58

except for that we stick out like a sore thumb,

6:01

we're not fitting in, et cetera. So

6:03

I had read this book, What Every Autistic Girl

6:05

Wishes Her Parents Knew. And so

6:07

within that book, each chapter is written

6:09

by a different self advocate and

6:12

they were saying what they had wished for

6:14

when they were younger, et cetera. And a theme in

6:16

almost every single chapter is people

6:19

thought I didn't want friends, but I did want

6:21

friends. I just didn't know how to

6:23

make them or I was scared to, or

6:25

I was bullied at school. So I became very

6:27

resistant to trying that kind of thing.

6:30

And predominantly what kept coming out is

6:32

as soon as I found other autistic

6:34

people to be friends with, I finally

6:37

had a friend. And I

6:39

thought, that's it. She's

6:42

not making friends in these little groups because

6:44

every other kid in this group is

6:46

just a typical kid and she's

6:48

the one autistic kid. If I get her

6:50

in a group with lots of little

6:52

kids that are autistic, she might find

6:55

her little soul match. So how

6:57

am I going to do that? And that became, my goal,

6:59

is I'm going to create a social club

7:01

for girls or teens

7:04

or women on the spectrum so they can

7:06

find each other and have opportunities to connect.

7:08

Because if we're in this boat, there's other

7:11

families in this boat too, let's find

7:13

them. So that's kind of what kicked us off.

7:16

Your vision is a world where neurological

7:19

developmental differences are not a barrier

7:21

to friendship, connection, happiness

7:23

and self worth. And I think you've

7:25

definitely attained that. You've now got

7:27

hundreds of members and

7:30

you're in communities all over DC. Why

7:32

do you think people have responded so well

7:35

to Girls Club?

7:36

I think people respond so well to girls club

7:39

because what we're creating is a culture

7:41

of acceptance. So when families

7:43

come and girls come, they realize

7:45

very quickly, oh this is different,

7:48

this is different than anywhere else I go because

7:50

the expectations are different, I'm expected

7:53

to just be myself, there's not

7:55

heavy demands on me. I can participate

7:57

in ways that are meaningful to me. So

8:01

if I go to a mainstream social

8:03

thing or even just at someone's birthday party,

8:06

at someone else's house, typical kid stuff

8:08

where they go and socialize, there

8:10

are these unwritten rules of

8:13

engagement. There are expectations

8:15

around participation. We take

8:17

all of that away. So some girls

8:19

come to Girls Club and may sit in the corner

8:21

and not talk to a single soul the whole

8:23

time. And when they leave they'll

8:25

say they had a wonderful time and I will hear

8:27

later from their parents that so

8:29

and so had a wonderful time with her friends

8:32

at Girls Club. Thank you so much, we'll see you

8:34

next time. And so little by

8:36

little these girls move from the corner of

8:38

the room to maybe the edge of the table,

8:41

the craft table or the food table and

8:43

then maybe several months later to a seat

8:45

seated next to another girl and then

8:47

several months after that finally a conversation

8:50

or a shared activity. So we are

8:52

giving girls all of the

8:54

time and space that they

8:56

need to get there on their own terms.

8:58

And that's unique about us because as

9:00

far as I know, there are not other social

9:03

clubs doing it that way and that's

9:05

why it works and that's why people are happy.

9:07

Basically it's peer pressure without

9:09

the pressure.

9:10

Yes, exactly.

9:12

Because I bring Sophie, my daughter

9:14

to Girls Club whenever we can

9:16

and she absolutely loves it. When are we going to Girls

9:18

Club again? And it just fills your heart because

9:20

it is really hard for our kids to

9:23

make friends in a neuro- typical

9:25

environment. And that brings me to this. People

9:28

talk a lot about the importance of integration

9:30

with neuro- typical kids and

9:33

why do you think it's important

9:35

for youth who are on the spectrum to

9:37

meet and hang out with other kids who

9:39

are more like them?

9:41

I think it's important because everybody

9:43

needs to find their tribe. You

9:46

need to find your people. That

9:48

doesn't mean to say you don't have neuro- typical

9:50

friends or friends

9:52

at school, friends, and they can be your best. It doesn't matter.

9:55

I'm not saying choose us, not them.

9:57

It's both.

9:59

Girls Club organizes all kinds of things.

10:01

There's art gallery trips. There's

10:03

trick or treating. There's Taekwondo,

10:05

sexual health night, talent shows,

10:08

princess tea parties, the birthday parties.

10:11

What have you learned from

10:13

the girls in putting on

10:15

these activities?

10:16

What I have learned from the girls is that

10:19

they're pretty much up for anything and they're much

10:21

more adventurous than I would have expected

10:23

when I started. For example, the

10:25

talent show. I thought most

10:28

girls with autism also have quite high anxiety

10:30

and I would never have thought of doing a

10:32

talent show, but that was a member request.

10:35

That was three little girls who came to me and said, can we

10:37

do a talent show? And I

10:39

was like, sure.

10:42

So I did the talent show. That was

10:44

shocking to me going to Playland as a field trip

10:46

and watching them on The Beast. I was like,

10:49

what is happening?

10:50

All the sensory stuff, right?

10:52

Exactly! So much more adventurous, but when

10:54

they feel safe and comfortable with each other,

10:56

they're definitely willing to go there.

10:59

You're listening to life on the spectrum. I'm

11:01

Katie Bennison. Coming up, you'll

11:04

hear part of my conversation with Michelle

11:06

Garcia Winner. Michelle is

11:08

a congressional award winning speech

11:10

language pathologist. Her strategies

11:13

for overcoming social challenges are

11:15

used around the world. And hey,

11:17

if you like what you've been hearing, help us

11:19

out please and rate and review us

11:21

on Apple Podcasts or wherever

11:24

you get your podcast fix. It really

11:26

helps us reach more people. But

11:28

first let's check in with our parent

11:30

round table and hear their

11:32

concerns about the social challenges

11:34

their teenagers face living with

11:37

autism.

11:39

And I found it just went to

11:42

warp speed around age 12 or 13

11:45

as the other kids

11:47

changed the social dynamic, the maturity

11:50

increased, more peer

11:52

interactions and dynamics that Dylan

11:54

wasn't able to connect

11:57

with and as friends changed and became

11:59

friends and people got mad

12:01

and didn't talk to each other, he didn't know how

12:03

to process that and understand

12:05

it. They made a promise that we're going to meet

12:07

at two o'clock and they didn't come or

12:09

this promise was made and they broke the promise.

12:12

So I think a lot of those interactions

12:15

between teens is that complexity.

12:18

It just kind of hit the wall and

12:21

extraordinarily intense

12:23

emotional outbursts. Like just the inability

12:26

to communicate or articulate

12:28

his emotions without kind

12:31

of a lot of self harm.

12:33

So I think that was the most difficult.

12:36

Any group work at school. She struggles

12:38

with knowing what the other people are

12:40

expecting of her and what to expect from them.

12:43

She had this one project this year that

12:46

she would have failed if she hadn't shown up to

12:48

talk to the teacher at the end of term. It was

12:50

a social studies project that

12:52

they came up with a rap, a history rap, and

12:54

one of the other girls was going to do the tune

12:56

and the (Leona) wrote all the lyrics and stuff and the

12:59

other girl was going to do the music but they didn't do anything.

13:01

They didn't hand it in at all, so

13:04

the teacher then called them all in on the last day

13:06

of school and Leona was the only one who showed up,

13:08

so she didn't even understand why they didn't show

13:11

up. All the unwritten social

13:13

cues. We walk down the street, I can

13:15

see the two people, I know what they're thinking. I

13:17

get a sense of what their relationship is, whether

13:20

they're friends or whatever. That's

13:22

lost on her. She's still struggling

13:24

to understand what are those two people thinking.

13:27

It's the inability

13:30

to sort of understand what relationships are between

13:32

other people, what they're thinking, what their reaction might

13:34

be to the things that he says or does or

13:36

doesn't say or doesn't do, whether

13:38

he's looking at them when he's speaking, all of those

13:40

things. He's unable to kind of really get that.

13:43

And also he doesn't understand people,

13:46

their reaction to him and their relationship

13:48

to him. He might have one

13:51

conversation with someone at lunch and

13:53

then that person is his best friend and he comes home

13:55

and it breaks my heart because I'm like, well, I

13:57

don't know if that person's your, you know. Anyway,

14:00

we've had a lot of those things where he doesn't understand

14:03

if that person really is his friend or not

14:05

his friend.

14:06

One of the biggest challenges that come

14:09

with autism is the social side and we live in

14:11

cultures that rely heavily on social

14:13

interaction. We need social skills

14:15

to build friendships, navigate conflict,

14:18

and to develop careers. We

14:20

also need them to just go to the grocery

14:22

store or buy a movie ticket. But even

14:24

the simplest social situations

14:26

can be very tough for people with autism. So

14:29

how can parents, educators

14:31

and caregivers smooth the way for kids

14:33

on the spectrum? Well, this is a question

14:35

Carol Gray knows an awful lot

14:37

about. She began her career as a teacher in

14:40

the 1970s and at that

14:42

time she had several students with autism

14:44

so she developed what she called Social

14:46

Stories. Now her approach

14:48

is used right around the world. She's highly

14:51

sought after as a keynote speaker

14:53

and we are very lucky to have Carol

14:55

Gray join us on Life

14:58

on the Spectrum. Carol, thanks for being a part

15:00

of the show.

15:01

It's a pleasure to be here.

15:03

So this episode is dedicated

15:05

to helping pave the

15:07

way for kids socially. So

15:10

I wanted to ask you, first off, what

15:12

are social stories?

15:14

Social stories are often

15:17

very brief narratives,

15:20

descriptions of

15:22

everyday events, concepts, skills,

15:25

and also achievements. And

15:27

what we've discovered is by placing

15:30

things in writing, following

15:32

a format that

15:34

makes the information meaningful,

15:37

understandable for people

15:39

with autism, we find that

15:42

often they adopt on

15:44

their own new more effective

15:46

responses to the situations

15:48

that we've described.

15:50

What would be an example of how

15:52

a social story might be used?

15:54

Some examples that we are working with

15:56

in the workshop that I'm currently conducting,

15:59

one of the stories that

16:01

people are working on is for a little girl,

16:03

Emma, four years old and she's fearful

16:06

of using the toilet and the doctors have

16:08

said she should be fine to use the

16:10

toilet. Everything physically is there

16:12

and ready, but she

16:14

seems frightened of using the toilet. So

16:17

we have some people working on a story for

16:19

Emma. We have another little

16:21

guy, a little older who's learning to write

16:24

but seems to feel that

16:26

his letters must be exact.

16:28

Exactly like the model that's up in the classroom.

16:31

So other people are working

16:34

on a social story for him. And at

16:36

Social Story, not only are we

16:38

looking for characteristics and how

16:40

the information is presented,

16:43

but we're also looking for the process

16:45

that determines the topic and implements

16:48

the story.

16:48

So if I give an example of my daughter who's

16:50

on the spectrum, my daughter used to be

16:53

really afraid of loud

16:55

hand dryers in public

16:57

spaces, like in grocery stores,

16:59

in malls, et cetera. So

17:02

we had to write a social story

17:04

to show her that these are just machines

17:06

and they can't hurt you, but it had visuals

17:08

with it.

17:09

What's interesting is you're talking about

17:11

your daughter. I had a student

17:14

on my caseload who would

17:16

run from a restroom if somebody

17:18

turned on the air hand dryer. And

17:21

just as you did, we wrote a social,

17:24

I contacted the company that created

17:26

that hair hand dryer and I said, I need to

17:28

know how that works, and

17:30

they sent diagrams, et cetera. We

17:33

put that along with text

17:35

and basically described how air hand

17:37

dryers work. Now in the case of that

17:40

young man, I mentioned

17:43

in this story that air hand dryers

17:45

turn off automatically after about one

17:47

minute. He did not know that because he had

17:49

never stayed around long enough for them, but

17:51

he was fascinated by the thought

17:53

that they might do that. The

17:56

next problem was getting him out of the restrooms

17:58

because he would do them over and over

18:00

and over and over again because

18:02

now he understood how they worked.

18:04

He understood that there was an end

18:06

to a sound that was obviously uncomfortable

18:09

for him. Meaningful

18:11

frustration, whether it's being at the

18:13

dentist, we can tolerate something

18:16

that's uncomfortable if we understand

18:18

the rationale, if we understand

18:21

why we're being asked to sit in this

18:23

chair at the dentist with people

18:25

crawling all over the inside of our mouths. If

18:27

we understand the rationale for that, that frustration

18:30

has meaning for us and we're more likely

18:32

to stay.

18:33

Have there been studies done on the benefits?

18:36

Social Stories are now considered an

18:38

evidence based practice, which means

18:40

that there has been enough objective

18:44

research to determine that yes, this

18:46

is an effective strategy.

18:48

So if parents or caregivers are

18:50

interested in trying to use Social

18:52

Stories, what should they do? What steps

18:54

should they take?

18:56

One of the best steps would be to attend

18:58

a genuine Social Story

19:00

workshop. One that is conducted

19:03

by either myself or

19:06

what we call one of our Social Stories

19:08

satellites, which are organizations

19:10

that now have my materials and they have

19:12

people trained to conduct Social

19:14

Story workshops. Or go

19:16

to my website, carolgraysocialstories. com

19:20

for a good introduction to that.

19:22

Thank you so much for taking

19:24

the time to join us.

19:26

Thank you. Thank you. It's been a pleasure.

19:29

Every parent wants their child to make friends,

19:32

to have conversations, to take turns

19:35

and to share, to feel love

19:37

and to give love. Humans

19:39

by nature are social creatures, but

19:41

when your child doesn't learn the same way

19:43

as other kids, teaching social skills

19:45

can be a big challenge. So what do you do?

19:48

Michelle Garcia Winner specializes

19:50

in the treatment of people with social learning challenges.

19:53

She's the founder and CEO of Social

19:55

Thinking in California, a company

19:57

that helps kids and adults develop

19:59

social skills and meet their social goals.

20:02

She's created programs that help educators,

20:04

clinicians, and other professionals

20:07

as well as parents and families.

20:09

Michelle has written more than 20 books

20:11

and she travels the world to talk about

20:13

social thinking. Michelle, welcome

20:16

to life on the spectrum.

20:17

Thanks and thank you for inviting me.

20:19

Absolutely. So my

20:21

question for you is, first of all,

20:24

why is it important for people

20:26

to learn how to socialize?

20:29

It's in our DNA to seek the emotionality

20:31

of connecting with each other. And

20:34

if a student keeps saying, I don't care, I don't

20:36

care, I don't care, as they age up,

20:38

at some point they start to get really

20:40

depressed and really anxious because

20:42

just like we need food and air, we

20:45

need human connection to

20:47

keep us feeling like we're part

20:49

of something bigger than ourselves.

20:51

Absolutely. Well, why is it difficult

20:53

for people with autism to socialize?

20:57

So folks on the autism spectrum

20:59

have some different learning

21:01

abilities in addition to some

21:03

biological and sensory processing,

21:07

but in terms of their cognitive abilities,

21:10

some of our folks have really great scientific

21:13

abilities, but when it comes

21:15

to the social world, their brain

21:17

struggles to understand other people's perspectives,

21:20

to understand that other people have goals

21:22

that are different from their own. To

21:24

be able to understand something as elusive

21:27

and innate and that's understanding as emotions.

21:30

How do I feel? How do you feel? How

21:33

do we create plans together? This

21:35

is all part of what's called our social cognition

21:38

and I think it's hard today to

21:41

refute that each of us has many different

21:43

types of smarts we call them. Some

21:45

people are naturally gifted in math or

21:47

reading and maybe not

21:49

gifted on the playground or

21:52

not gifted in socially connecting.

21:54

And that's because our brains are designed, each

21:56

of us has a unique brain that delivers

21:59

us different types of brain smarts. People on the autism

22:01

spectrum all share a trait of

22:04

having their brain be more sluggish when it comes

22:06

to understanding the social dynamics.

22:09

So what are some of the toughest social situations

22:12

for children with autism?

22:16

So there's different types of autisms out

22:19

there and our work is specifically for kids

22:21

who have solid to high level language and

22:23

learning abilities. But there's kind of

22:25

two big factors going on. One is

22:28

understanding others, understanding

22:30

that people have plans that are different from yourself.

22:33

Understanding that people don't understand

22:35

you by you just existing.

22:39

I've worked with some clients who thought just,

22:41

I thought that just by showing up on the playground

22:43

meant I wanted to play, but no

22:45

one came to play with me because they were standing

22:48

back just kind of looking at their feet

22:50

and they thought that because they were there,

22:52

that meant I really want to play

22:54

with you, but no one else reads

22:56

that as being somebody who wants to play, the

22:58

typical kids. And so that's

23:00

one of the challenges is understanding kind

23:02

of the perspective taking loop. What's

23:05

the message you want to send others? And

23:07

a lot of the messages we send are without

23:09

language.

23:10

Is it any different for teens? Are there different

23:13

tough social situations?

23:15

I think what gets harder for teens is

23:17

one, kids get developmentally cattier.

23:20

Kids are more boastful

23:22

of who's in their group. And then by

23:24

around third grade, fourth grade, nine, 10

23:27

years old, kids not only really

23:29

love who's in their group, but then they sometimes

23:31

make a big deal about negatives about

23:33

who's not in their group. More verbosity

23:36

or sometimes meanness

23:38

about, who am I

23:41

with, who am I not with? But I have to say,

23:43

people on the autism spectrum can also,

23:45

like they're not saints. So they

23:47

have some challenges. They're

23:49

developmentally on point too

23:52

through this. And so I think there's a tendency

23:54

to think everybody on the spectrum is naive

23:56

or unaware and our guys

23:58

can be pretty prickly at times

24:00

and some of our kids can even bully. So

24:03

we have to be aware of all of those factors.

24:05

Because developmentally, the mind just gets

24:07

more complicated. We're all

24:09

born to be collaborative and cooperative

24:12

in nature. But as we get a

24:14

sense of ourself, we

24:16

want different things. And so by the time

24:19

you're becoming a teen, depending on where

24:21

you are on the spectrum, if you have more

24:23

social self- awareness, you

24:25

may be feeling really rejected

24:27

because you're seeing people just

24:30

relate more actively or,

24:32

and dating is starting and hormones are coming

24:34

in. So it's a really vulnerable age

24:37

where we see kids really

24:39

start to get super frustrated. And

24:41

the same kid maybe five years ago

24:44

was saying he's happy by himself,

24:46

that his brain was kind of overwhelmed

24:49

socially when he was younger. Because one of

24:51

the things we see with younger kids, this

24:53

happens with some of our older kids too, but with younger

24:55

kids they're a little bit more spacey

24:57

or they're happy inside of their brain imagining

25:00

whatever kind of passion that they have

25:02

that they like to think about. But as they get

25:04

older there's naturally a little bit

25:07

more awareness of what's going on around them.

25:09

And certainly kids higher on the spectrum have more

25:11

and more awareness. And so then the vulnerabilities

25:14

are not only the complexity

25:16

of social dynamics as kids

25:18

are hanging out in cliques and

25:20

moving between friends and wanting

25:23

to date or flirt, there's also

25:25

the really, really compelling anxiety

25:27

and depressions that can kick in. So

25:30

I think that's where we have to caretake how do

25:32

we validate a person and help them

25:34

feel good about where they are and what they're learning

25:37

while also helping

25:39

them acknowledge their vulnerabilities

25:41

and never make it sound too easy? Like

25:44

just stop being anxious. Because sometimes people

25:46

say you don't need to be anxious, just go join

25:48

a group. That kind of feedback

25:50

isn't helpful because it just

25:53

makes it all sound like it's easy

25:55

and none of this is easy. When your brain makes

25:57

something hard for you to learn, that's certainly

25:59

stressful.

26:00

You coined the term social thinking in

26:02

the mid 1990s. What

26:05

is social thinking?

26:07

So social thinking is the ability

26:09

to understand our own and

26:11

others' perspectives and

26:13

emotions in context

26:15

to understand what's happening around us

26:18

or what's happening to the people that we're

26:20

seeing on a screen, in a story,

26:22

in the news. To understand people's

26:24

intentions.

26:26

So what's the answer? How do we help

26:28

kids or teens on the spectrum get

26:30

better at social thinking?

26:32

We have to really feed them what they want,

26:34

which is a logical way to understand

26:37

super abstract information. And

26:39

that's what I've endeavored to do in Social

26:41

Thinking, is help logical

26:43

minds think about the abstract

26:46

nature of the social world in

26:48

a concrete way so they feel like they can be

26:50

part of it.

26:51

That's those hidden rules that you always talk about.

26:53

Yeah. Lately we've been talking about

26:56

teaching how does the social world

26:58

work? How do I work in

27:00

the world? How do I navigate and regulate

27:02

in the world? To meet

27:04

each of our goals.

27:08

And I think that's a great question to go out

27:10

on. I, for one, feel

27:12

very inspired to look for new ways

27:15

to support my daughter as she

27:17

learns the hidden rules of social interactions.

27:20

I hope you've enjoyed today's episode,

27:22

and if you'd like to hear my full conversation

27:25

with Michelle Garcia Winner or check

27:27

out some of the other episodes of our

27:29

podcast, you can go to our website,

27:31

lifeonthespectrumpodcast. com.

27:35

Plus, of course, you can always listen,

27:38

like, and share us on Apple Podcasts

27:40

or wherever you like to listen. The

27:43

next episode will be all about navigating

27:46

the school system when your child is on the

27:48

spectrum. I'm Katie Bennison.

27:51

Thanks so much for listening.