0:10

Welcome to lifelong educators

0:12

where we have a community of people,

0:15

of educators, of parents, of people

0:17

who are just concerned about the state

0:20

of education, perhaps their

0:22

own projects that they want to bring

0:24

to the table to make education

0:26

a better place, a better place

0:29

for our children and for adults

0:31

to learn. So today

0:34

we have a very special guest. We have

0:36

Andrew Berry. He is the

0:38

CEO of curious lion,

0:40

which is an educational and HR consulting

0:43

firm. Good morning. Fantastic.

0:50

And also today, my co-host who

0:54

is CEO of click to an online

0:56

learning platform. And good morning

0:58

to you. Don't tell him

1:00

during the morning to you good morning to

1:02

our guests, our attendees.

1:05

And

1:06

I'm glad that you mentioned our attendees

1:09

because this is a program

1:11

today where those of you out in the community

1:14

can pick the brain of

1:16

Andrew Berry. He can

1:18

advise you as to your own projects,

1:21

maybe, uh, you're in the early

1:23

development stages. Maybe you're later

1:25

along in the game, but this is

1:27

the man who can advise

1:29

you. So I will

1:31

tell you that Andrew helps clients like

1:34

the NBA, Pinterest, Ted KPMG,

1:38

and other with their online learning

1:40

stress. He believes

1:42

that alert is time is too precious

1:44

to waste on poor quality training that

1:47

doesn't reflect your brand, but

1:50

you're not one of those big companies. So

1:52

we thought we would bring Andrew to you.

1:55

So go ahead. If you have questions,

1:57

comments, please put them in

1:59

the chat and Andrew will answer

2:02

them directly. So,

2:05

Andrew, could you tell us a little bit about

2:07

your firm curious lion?

2:11

Yeah. So, um, that was

2:13

a lovely intro. Thank you. We we've

2:15

been, I started this company about six

2:17

years ago and I think like most companies.

2:20

Uh, we've evolved quite a bit in terms

2:22

of what we do. Um, at the beginning we did

2:24

whatever opportunities that came in

2:26

the door asked for. Um, and,

2:28

and we were, uh, pretty much, uh, all

2:30

purpose learning development shops.

2:32

So we did everything from e-learning to video,

2:34

to some, uh, some

2:37

live facilitation. Um, but

2:39

I'd say what we've really started to specialize

2:41

in, in the last year and a half, two

2:43

years, probably around the time.

2:45

Yeah. Since the beginning of 2020, uh,

2:47

is what I'm calling the curious

2:50

line learning flywheel. So it

2:52

is our approach and our methodology

2:54

for helping companies create cultures

2:57

of continuous learning. So,

3:00

and it's, it's sort of, uh,

3:02

basically the basic concept is bringing people

3:04

together, leveraging what I believe.

3:06

And I think everyone in this

3:08

audience probably agrees that we learn best

3:11

from each other. So we designed ways

3:13

to leverage asynchronous content

3:16

that already exists. We can also create that

3:18

for our. Um, to, to

3:20

get people a lens

3:22

through which to talk through topics and then redesign

3:24

ways to bring them together to have those discussions,

3:27

because it's in the live getting

3:29

together part that the real high,

3:31

high leverage, uh, learning happens.

3:33

And, uh, yeah, that's what, that's what

3:35

we've been doing most recently for companies.

3:38

Hmm. When you say live getting together

3:40

part, you mean online,

3:42

of course, like we're doing right now.

3:44

Yeah, exactly. Wow,

3:46

fantastic. Um, I

3:49

mean the people that are tuning in

3:51

today or listening to the podcast or

3:53

watching the zoom might

3:56

have their own projects already in development.

4:00

And so, I

4:02

mean, I am a college professor myself

4:05

and I have developed my own

4:07

online learning programs for

4:09

my students. So

4:11

how do I know. And how

4:14

do the people out there know if

4:17

it's good or good

4:19

enough? How do we assess it?

4:22

Yeah. So, so

4:25

again, so starting from the top, um, I

4:27

like to think of it as first identifying different

4:29

roles that you need to

4:31

be conscious of when you're

4:33

designing the learning and, and delivering

4:36

it actually. And that's the learner

4:38

and there's four different roles. So

4:40

the learner and the peer, which is the same

4:42

interchangeable person, but they are

4:44

all learners, but there's also that counterpart

4:46

that they learn with. Right. Uh, then you've

4:49

got experts and then you've got the teacher

4:51

or facilitator. And if you picture those

4:53

four going around the flywheel, you've

4:55

got learners learning from peers,

4:58

the content or subject matters

5:00

coming from experts, which could be. Internal,

5:04

it could be internal experts. And often as companies

5:06

get mature, that is where it all comes from

5:09

the sort of traditional SME or subject

5:11

matter expert. Um, but it goes to the

5:13

external experts. So we'll often bring in

5:15

specialists in certain topics that will

5:17

come and sort of deliver some content for people.

5:20

Um, and then the facilitator

5:22

and teacher role is kind of

5:24

the key one where that live component

5:27

comes in. Um, so

5:29

w how this all comes together is in a learning

5:31

sprint. So what we, we designed for clients,

5:34

it's typically a two week sprint for one topic,

5:36

and typically a project is,

5:38

is a six week or three topic,

5:41

uh, deliverable. And

5:43

in those six weeks, there will be. Asynchronous

5:46

content that learners need to consume in their own

5:49

time. Right? So like videos, uh

5:51

e-learning whatever the case may be.

5:54

Most of the cases for the types of companies that we

5:56

work with now, that's custom developed stuff,

5:58

right? So we'll, we'll, we'll create videos for

6:00

them. We'll create the e-learning, um, we'll

6:02

script, you know, all that kind of stuff.

6:05

But for companies just starting out for organizations,

6:08

and I'm sure as, you know, Jackie, this

6:10

stuff exists out out there. You

6:12

know, the content exists

6:14

all over the place. It's free on YouTube. It's

6:17

in a brilliant articles online. It's in books.

6:19

It, it exists out there. So the

6:22

job there is curation, right? And that

6:24

in that beginning of the sprint, just curated

6:26

the right content for the learners to

6:28

consume to

6:30

again, have that lens, to have discussions,

6:32

meaningful discussions around that topic. That's

6:35

sort of the key of that and it, and

6:38

you've got to resist the, the other piece of this is

6:40

to stuff it with everything

6:42

you've got to like really cut down

6:44

to remove all the extraneous content.

6:47

It gets to the really essential content. How

6:50

do you do then? Sorry, say that

6:52

again. So I know

6:54

exactly what you're saying. There's so

6:56

much content out there. How do I

6:58

get rid of the stuff I don't need and

7:01

target that, which I do.

7:03

Yeah. So that's the way the learning outcomes

7:05

are so essential. So in the

7:08

discovery and the sort of a product

7:10

of the discovery phase of our work and then design,

7:12

we're getting to a very specific

7:14

learning outcome for going

7:16

back to that sprint model. Right? So for a topic,

7:19

there'll be a very specific learning outcome that

7:21

learning outcome is framed in terms of an action.

7:24

So what do you want to learn is to be able to do

7:27

by the end of the. Sprint. Um,

7:30

and that's super cute. And then it's just designing

7:33

the content or curating

7:35

the content. Like I said, in a way

7:37

that gets to that outcome and anything

7:39

that's oh, that's interesting. But

7:41

you know, kind of tangential to that needs

7:43

to be to remove because it's not,

7:46

it's not driving at that ultimate outcome. That's

7:48

why it's so important to get that carrot seed.

7:52

And then once you've got that in place, and you've got that

7:54

the right content that primes

7:57

them, right. That a, another learning

7:59

concept there. So they are primed to come into

8:01

the live session, which is sort of the second,

8:03

what's it? It's, it's part of that two week sprint,

8:06

because generally we do two live sessions.

8:08

One is to discuss what they've just

8:10

covered. Um, they'll come into

8:12

that primed again with, with

8:14

specific reflection questions. So

8:16

reflection is another very, very important

8:19

aspects of this as well. So they've consumed some

8:21

content. They've, they've answered

8:23

the reflection questions, which they do

8:25

on their own, and then they come to a live event,

8:28

uh, to discuss that, uh, the,

8:30

the key thing with the live event. It

8:32

needs to create. And this is where the facilitator teacher

8:35

role plays, uh, plays the part. It

8:37

needs to create an open space for

8:39

people to get vulnerable and honest

8:42

and open with what you're,

8:44

what they are, what they've taken away from that

8:46

content and to get them to bring

8:48

out their real world experiences

8:50

of that content. Right. That's the other,

8:53

that's the other key piece. And

8:55

they then leave that first session with specific

8:57

actions that they need to take Um,

9:00

and, and this is there. This

9:02

is sort of tying together. It's sort of these three PS

9:04

that I often talk about personal meaning, which is the

9:06

reflection we talked about, um,

9:08

the prompts to action, which is what I

9:10

mentioned at the end of that first session.

9:12

They leave a specific actions that committed to

9:14

take. And then the third P is peer

9:17

to peer learning, which is, you know, that

9:19

overall interaction, um,

9:21

which you can, we can get into the specifics

9:23

of that on those live sessions, break cards and

9:25

that kind of thing. But they basically then go off

9:27

into the outside world, take those actions. So

9:30

maybe it's a, it's a course on how

9:32

to, on coaching conversations. And so

9:34

they'll commit to go and have a conversation with someone

9:36

on their team. And they'll set that meeting

9:38

up. They'll apply some framework that

9:40

they may have learned, uh, you know, that

9:43

in the asynchronous content, in which they listed and

9:45

discuss with their peers and a facilitator,

9:47

and they left with some actionable things, they wanted to practice.

9:49

And so they got, and they have a real world interaction

9:53

and implement that framework. And then they reflect

9:55

on that. And then the second session

9:57

of that two week sprint, they get back

9:59

together to debrief how it went

10:01

and what did they talk about? Um, and,

10:04

and, uh, yeah, and that that's way,

10:06

honestly, that sort of facilitated plays a much,

10:08

much more passive

10:10

role. And the participants we found

10:13

in all the companies you've worked with are so

10:15

active in that, because I

10:18

mean, they're just, they realize that everyone has

10:20

similar issues to them. Similar challenges.

10:23

They've all got different experiences of things

10:25

that have worked and not worked. And that's

10:27

just incredible to watch as they start to,

10:30

to share that and, and help each other

10:32

troubleshoot. And, you know,

10:34

master sit in school,

10:37

No, I entered it first. It sounds,

10:40

um, it sounds like it's a science. I mean,

10:42

I know it's, it's, it's a science, there's,

10:45

there's so many factors here, there, and you

10:47

it's a mix of arts and science, I would say.

10:49

Um, and you mentioned

10:51

that we could go a little bit deeper

10:54

into the interaction.

10:56

Um, and I, and I wanted to ask you, because you

10:58

speak a lot about the content they

11:01

used to say, the content is the king and

11:04

these days, as you said, content

11:07

is everywhere, right? No, we

11:09

don't, I don't need anybody

11:11

for five for getting content. I can search

11:14

and get any content I want. And obviously

11:16

once it's curated and the ones that get unleashed, the,

11:19

the ones, the, the pieces that I

11:21

need for my outcomes, that's already a great

11:23

step, but what's

11:26

the role or how can

11:29

the course be designed to be really

11:31

interactive, engaging in a way that. Content

11:35

is just one piece

11:37

of it, but really the experience

11:40

makes that course, that

11:43

unique experience that they want, that,

11:45

that stays

11:46

with me. Yeah.

11:49

So I, I, I'm glad you mentioned

11:51

at the top of that, that there's

11:54

a lot of moving parts to this, so it

11:56

it's, it's tough to explain it all in one go, but,

11:58

but I, um, I appreciate you kind of diving into

12:00

this one aspect of it. So this is a, a

12:02

deep dive into sort of those three Ps a little

12:04

bit more because those really

12:07

fundamentally increase,

12:09

increase that engagement or

12:12

motivation of the learner Um,

12:15

and so the first one prompts the actions to making it

12:17

very real world. So any examples

12:19

use, uh, um, you know, I'm

12:22

a big fan of, um, cognitive task

12:24

analysis that really trying to

12:26

unpick from those experts. One of the,

12:28

one of the four roles, um, uh,

12:30

what is it. The actual,

12:33

like actual, real lived experiences of theirs,

12:35

what decisions do they make? What cues did they observe?

12:38

What strategies did they use? All that kind of stuff.

12:41

Um, and then having the learners commit to taking

12:44

real action and reflecting on that.

12:46

So that that's that one. And then the personal meaning is

12:48

that reflection, like, why am I

12:50

learning about this? How do I want to use this

12:52

skill of coaching? Right. And so

12:55

that could be different for everyone. Um,

12:58

and as a facilitator is sort of the

13:00

learning designer, um, or

13:02

the company that that's putting this together. I think you

13:04

want to be thinking about how to broadly

13:08

frame that overall transformation, but

13:10

give people an opportunity to have their

13:12

own take on it. Right. Cause

13:14

everyone's is going to be different, um, and

13:17

personal to them. Um, and then

13:19

the peer to peer piece is, is the other one, which is

13:21

to get super tactical on, on those

13:23

calls. It's bringing people together and

13:26

having them, um, using

13:28

breakouts, for example. So. Putting

13:32

them into small, small learning groups

13:34

where, what we found is that is

13:37

fishy, fishy. Cause people come in like some

13:40

extroverts, somebody introverts, uh, some,

13:42

uh, you know, some

13:44

like a more like kinesthetic, some are like big

13:46

talkers like it. So it's like a very, you know, it's obviously

13:49

a big difference, but if you have, we find the smaller,

13:51

the groups, the more people are comfortable to, uh,

13:54

start to open up and share

13:56

what's on their mind because that's ultimately

13:58

what you want. Right? Like, so the three

14:00

of us sitting here, uh, that I can see

14:02

on the camera at least, uh, you

14:04

know, in this learning pilot and we able to talk about,

14:06

well, this is the experience I had with

14:09

certain prompts, right. So we would design those

14:11

prompts up upfront so that people know

14:13

what to talk about. Um, and this

14:15

is a whole science, like you said, to

14:18

making people feel comfortable

14:20

knowing what to talk about, like just creating

14:22

the right environment for that

14:25

conversation to take. Because,

14:27

I mean, and that, that's kind of like the weird

14:29

part at the end is it's very, it's

14:31

not like bells and whistles to this. It's very organic,

14:34

uh, the, the actual magic, cause it's like all

14:36

organic, you put the preparation in

14:38

to get it positioned for

14:41

that. And then you just let the conversations

14:43

happen.

14:44

And I have to ask because

14:47

you, uh, you speak about the online

14:49

setting. Like it's so natural and normal.

14:51

Um, it wasn't always like that. And,

14:54

and how do you feel like about

14:56

how people, um, took

14:58

it before the pandemic? Was there any

15:00

change in the last year and a half?

15:03

Um, and the future? What do you think of

15:05

what the future of this?

15:07

Yeah, so I think that's, that's a fascinating

15:10

experience that we've all been through. I,

15:13

I remember like at the end of 2019,

15:16

so not even that long ago, It

15:18

still felt weird to just jump on a zoom

15:21

call with a stranger. Right.

15:23

And be like, okay, well, yeah, like I met you on

15:25

Twitter or LinkedIn and let's have

15:27

a 30 minute call to get to Nosha then, um,

15:30

that's like, not even two years ago that

15:32

felt like it wasn't natural

15:35

to do that. I remember that sort of thinking. Um,

15:37

and then we, we turned the corner into 2020

15:40

and you know, personally I was going through a lot

15:42

of online courses. So I was getting more

15:44

comfortable with that, uh, that

15:46

sort of feeling and like being thrown into a breakout

15:49

room with two other people and, you know, you just, you

15:51

just meet them and you start talking to them, but

15:53

it was still like, there was still friction

15:56

or this is something you have to get used to. And

15:58

then the pandemic hits.

16:00

I just think everyone, like we

16:02

were faced with no other alternative. Right.

16:04

So I just personally remember

16:06

just being, so that was a big,

16:09

big sort of change in my career or

16:11

not pivot. An expansion

16:14

into like more creator, uh,

16:16

projects, as well as the, in addition

16:18

to the company stuff I was doing. And that's, cause I was

16:20

jumping on calls with people every day, just random

16:23

people that I've met, that we connected over some

16:25

kind of interest on, you know, mainly

16:27

through writing. And then we're like, oh, let's

16:29

have a conversation and jump on. And his 30 minute calls

16:32

always leave with more ideas

16:34

and more ideas

16:36

for my own writing, but ideas to collaborate with

16:39

people that I was just incredible. So

16:41

I just kept doing it, kept her in I,

16:43

so I just, I'm not speaking from personal opinion

16:45

or perspective, but it's something that I got

16:47

so much more comfortable with in 2020.

16:50

And I think a

16:52

lot of people did and you

16:54

know, you're, you're the final party of Christian

16:56

is the future. Like I just think that's going to get more

16:58

and more. More comfortable

17:01

people. I think there's going to be more ways for

17:03

people to connect. That's not

17:05

necessarily going to need like

17:08

video FaceTime as well.

17:10

Um, which is whole interesting, you know,

17:12

we have three metaverse like

17:14

connecting through advertise that kind of stuff, but

17:16

probably a 10 tangential topic for

17:19

this conversation. Um, but yeah, I just

17:21

think it's going to get more and more connected and people, um,

17:24

as the implications

17:26

of that is just astounding that people can

17:28

just connect across the world like we're doing

17:31

now and, uh, and

17:33

share ideas and find ways to.

17:35

Hmm. Well, Andrew, you're talking about

17:38

adults and dotage. I'm addressing this

17:40

to you too, because I think you have

17:42

experience with this when it comes to click too,

17:45

is when I walk into a class and

17:47

I'm having technical difficulties, the

17:50

kids voluntarily come up and

17:52

try to take over and help me. And

17:55

I explained to them, it's not that I'm

17:57

an inept person. It's just,

17:59

you all were born with these in your, in

18:01

your Palm and I wasn't.

18:04

So Andrew talking

18:06

about adults and how we

18:08

have adapted. What about

18:10

children who have been online

18:13

since

18:13

birth? Yeah.

18:16

Yeah. I mean, I think it's,

18:19

it's I have an 18 month old son, so I haven't

18:21

fully experienced, you know, he

18:23

has, obviously he's not online yet, but,

18:25

um, I, so I can't speak from personal

18:28

perspective here, but I think

18:30

just looking at. I mean, the

18:32

sort of an example, this, this,

18:35

uh, this thing that we've been talking about, being able

18:37

to connect with people on Twitter and all sorts of, uh,

18:40

online platforms. I

18:42

find myself working on little

18:44

mini projects and collaborating

18:46

with and sharing ideas with people who often

18:49

I find later, like almost 15

18:51

years old, uh, younger than me. Um,

18:54

but just so comfortable

18:57

with, and I'm not just talking about

18:59

the actual technology, right? It's. The

19:02

way of communicating online, the

19:05

methods of getting attention, the,

19:08

um, the way to like communication

19:11

style, all these kinds of things,

19:13

which to your point, I think you can

19:16

only really pick up by being in

19:18

it. And certainly when you start

19:20

native, um, it's

19:22

a, it's a big step up for people, uh,

19:24

as opposed to having to figure it all out.

19:27

Um,

19:29

don't tell him what have you discovered

19:31

in your journey and click to about

19:33

that kind of thing?

19:37

Well, when we, we started

19:39

a click to, uh, as a result

19:42

of realizing that

19:44

kids, uh, feel so natural

19:46

in the online space, it, it

19:49

it's something that personally, I,

19:51

I didn't know until the pandemic started,

19:53

I was always a person of, uh,

19:56

you know, we have to do everything in person. And

19:58

then education is when you actually meet people.

20:00

And then there's the magic and the growth. And

20:02

then we saw kids communicating

20:04

with each other, dancing with each other

20:06

online live, um,

20:09

and reacting even better. And

20:11

in the educational progress,

20:13

even faster on. That's

20:17

that was mind-blowing at the beginning.

20:19

Um, but then, you know, everything that

20:21

Andrew says just makes sense when

20:23

you think about it, it makes sense. That's how they

20:25

communicate. Um, so

20:28

we feel that it's

20:30

usually the educator, that's usually

20:33

older, um, that

20:35

is struggling with

20:37

the thought of how do I do it? How

20:40

do I make it engaging for the kids?

20:42

It's so natural and it makes a lot

20:44

of sense. Um, And

20:47

we say it every day, uh, you

20:49

know, enrichment programs, um,

20:52

that, that are running on click

20:54

to where kids come together and learn

20:56

stem or arts or

20:59

music, or even the athletics through,

21:02

uh, through the screen. They don't

21:04

even consider it screen time. They consider

21:06

it as social time as, uh, growth,

21:08

diamonds, fun time. Um,

21:11

and I think it is. So I

21:13

believe that, you know, if

21:15

we look into the future, 10

21:17

years, 15 years in the future,

21:20

the generation that are still young,

21:23

they're still kids today will become,

21:25

you know, adult learners. They,

21:29

if it was, if it's still

21:31

hard to convince adults today

21:33

to take a course online

21:36

for that generation, it will be very hard

21:39

to convince them to go out of their home

21:41

for, to take a course. It's

21:44

a big dramatic change. That's that's

21:46

what I see. I see.

21:48

Yeah, yeah.

21:52

Yeah. I just wanted to elaborate on this because I think this

21:55

is, this is super interesting. It's not, again,

21:57

we're not talking about like the interface

21:59

with technology, like. That's

22:01

like, that's the, the obvious bias.

22:04

I mean, it's still an important part because like

22:06

I see my 18 month old looking at

22:08

an iPad, the iPad is like, you know, my, my

22:11

parents are in South Africa, so he's right

22:13

now. Cause the COVID only knows them through that, but

22:15

he's like, he knows them through that.

22:17

Like it's incredible to watch. He has

22:19

certain things that he does only when he sees them

22:21

on there and he knows like how to work

22:24

it, like as well, which is just innately,

22:27

like obviously from observing Assabet. But

22:29

so there's that like, that's like ingrained that's

22:31

table stakes now, like being able to interface

22:33

with technology. I think the real, like

22:36

the next level of it is being able to leverage

22:38

it, you know, to get the

22:40

most out of it. And that's like being present

22:43

in it. It's just like a whole nother thing.

22:45

Like you were saying, that's on it's like they,

22:48

they know that they can, kids can get on

22:50

the screen and can like have fun and interact

22:52

with people and they see that's their friend and. I

22:55

dunno, like for us, I think it still feels somewhat,

22:58

um, different, right? Like there

23:00

seems like there's a bit more of a barrier, right? I think that

23:02

barrier is like pretty much not there for kids. Um,

23:06

so listen, everybody

23:08

out in our community, I'm so

23:10

happy that you're here. Uh, jump

23:13

in, put in the chat where you're

23:15

calling from and what's your

23:17

business about I'm really interested

23:19

in and I would love to bounce

23:21

your ideas off of Andrew. So

23:25

let me bounce. One of my all ideas

23:27

off of Andrew, how

23:29

do I keep

23:31

my material? How do I keep my content

23:34

from not being engaging

23:36

with my, and I have students,

23:39

uh, with my audience, how do I

23:41

do that? How do I know that it's really lively

23:44

and working and doesn't get stale

23:46

semester to semester?

23:49

Yeah. I mean, I feel like you,

23:51

how do you know, like, like when

23:53

do you first get. With your

23:55

students that that's not, it's

23:57

not working well,

24:00

as Don said, what I have tried to

24:02

do is to engage my students

24:05

with each other in cohort groups. Uh,

24:07

even if they're taking it online

24:09

because they have two jobs

24:11

and are just trying to get through this course, I

24:15

find out that they're not

24:17

doing the work just like

24:19

in a live setting. They're letting the other student

24:21

do most of the work or they don't make their

24:24

deadlines.

24:27

So they tell you, but they, they,

24:29

you get, you'd get that information from

24:31

them. Right. Ultimately.

24:33

Yeah. So I, and that's, I think that's the key,

24:36

that's the answer, um, is to involve

24:39

your students, whoever

24:42

they might be as much as possible.

24:44

in The development

24:46

of your material. In fact,

24:48

I'd go so far as to say, I think that one

24:50

of the big, interesting things I'm, I'm interested

24:52

in and excited about for the future

24:54

of learning is learning

24:57

programs or courses or

24:59

syllabus or whatever you want to

25:01

call it that are never really

25:04

finished. That I never complete

25:06

that I never finite, that I don't know,

25:08

beginnings or ends. They are

25:12

completely responsive and

25:15

adaptable and, uh,

25:19

yeah. Evolve with the needs of the learners.

25:22

So, um, I'll give you like a more

25:24

concrete example here. I'm I

25:26

have a program that I've just launched recently

25:28

called course of action. So it's a 12

25:31

month Yell on community that

25:33

you can join to learn how to create an online

25:35

course and set it. And

25:39

it is. First of all I

25:41

pre I sort of pre-sold it. So there was nothing in

25:43

there right. When people joined and I'm certainly adding

25:45

material insert, but instead of me sitting down

25:47

and saying, okay, well, these are going to be the 12 modules

25:49

that I'm going to cover and it's going to be

25:52

in this order and blah, blah, blah,

25:54

and then having to wait to get feedback.

25:57

Uh, you know, so those feedback loops become very,

26:00

very wide and then having to

26:02

go back and maintain the material

26:04

updated, you know, to, to your point that

26:09

what I'm actually doing is I'm building

26:11

it as they need as the need arises. So

26:14

it right on the onboarding, there's a question

26:16

in there. What is, what is it you find most challenging

26:18

about, uh, building an online. course

26:21

What's it building and selling an online course and

26:23

all those responses I've got in a sort of dashboard

26:26

as they coming in and I'm going through it and I'm

26:28

making sure I'm basically getting my ideas

26:31

for what to do next in the course as,

26:33

as a content piece from there and making

26:35

sure that it's addressing those points. So I know

26:37

at least one person often, and

26:39

you know, most of the time you can safely assume it's more than

26:42

one person has that concern.

26:44

And we'll have that piece of content really

26:46

hit home for them. Really answer

26:48

that question for them. And I

26:50

think. You know, as long as you have

26:52

like a rough idea of what you want to cover,

26:55

I think that's a very safe approach to go

26:57

about it because everything you do

26:59

is going to really be tight

27:01

to the feedback loops super tight, right?

27:03

You get it like very, very close to what the learners

27:05

need. Um, and just then thinking

27:08

about how do you keep doing that? How do you keep getting

27:11

feedback from them that this is, this is really

27:13

hitting the mark of what they're looking for. Wow.

27:17

I

27:17

love the, I love the, the concept

27:19

that you're building the course as you go

27:21

can, can, like, that's incredible.

27:24

And can that, do you think that conduct

27:26

work for others? I mean, for anybody

27:29

who's building a course that methodology

27:31

of building it as

27:33

you go. So

27:35

I think that's interesting question. Um, like we can

27:38

apply it to bigger organizations.

27:40

I would say it's probably,

27:43

probably not wise to go in to

27:46

like a full, like, I just I'm thinking of like, say

27:48

Pinterest, the company that size that we work with,

27:50

if they went in and said like, okay, well,

27:53

cause I think, cause the issue would be that the outstay

27:56

called it is so talented that professional would

27:59

not get like, that wouldn't get signed

28:01

off at the beginning of the year. Like there would be no budget allocated

28:03

to that. Right. So you have to have like a rough idea, I

28:06

think at that point of what you want to cover

28:08

or what, um, I mean,

28:10

if you do like a good needs analysis, you know, like what issues

28:12

you want to address, but

28:14

I think then building in enough flexibility

28:17

to be able to change it on the fly. And

28:20

that's the beauty honestly, of the flywheel

28:22

model is that. That content

28:24

can be pulled together pretty last minute. So you could

28:27

do a six week program and realize

28:29

from that program, you could identify three

28:31

major issues that you sending me to address

28:34

and within, you know, giving it enough

28:36

time for, let us to kind of take a break and

28:38

do you know, go about their normal work

28:41

you could within a month have a whole new six week

28:43

program specifically there to address

28:46

those needs. Um, I think that's interesting

28:48

point. I haven't actually thought about this that much, but

28:50

I think that that does work. But

28:52

I think, like I said, you've got to go in with some idea

28:55

of your approach for the year or

28:57

for the quarter or whatever that

28:59

is. Um, and then have flexibility

29:01

to be able to change it on the. I

29:04

guess to make that work, you need

29:06

a good way of communicating

29:08

with your audience in a way that you

29:10

know, that they really feel comfortable giving you that

29:12

feedback as you go. And it's,

29:16

you know, it's a lot about, um,

29:19

how this communication

29:21

is working because yeah,

29:24

you need, you need them to be engaged in that

29:26

part as well. Not just in the being part

29:28

of the course, but also helping you build the course for

29:30

them. Um, but yeah,

29:32

I like the, I like the concept it's

29:34

really

29:34

innovative. Yeah. And, and, and, and

29:37

th that's also a good point because you,

29:40

by bringing people together live all the time, you

29:42

can, you can actually get

29:44

that feedback a lot quicker. Right.

29:46

So I think it's just, that's just being intentional in

29:48

the design to make sure that you're also listening out

29:50

to what challenges people are having in

29:53

the current setting,

29:55

whatever the topic you're being that

29:57

you're discussing, um, to start to also

29:59

figure out what. Where else they

30:02

might have challenges. And then also just be very intentional

30:04

about asking at the end, you know, what, what

30:06

else is on your mind? What else would you like to learn

30:08

about? Um, yeah, I,

30:10

I think that's sort of a bit of data

30:12

gathering that happens in that presence as well,

30:14

which could be quite useful. You

30:16

know, you just solved the problem for me. I

30:19

was given a set syllabus.

30:21

I was given a class that was

30:23

not ready to succeed

30:26

with a syllabus like that. They didn't

30:28

have the skills coming in. So

30:31

instead of fighting back and forth all

30:33

semester me up here as

30:35

the instructor, imparting that

30:37

information into them, something

30:39

like that interactive communication

30:42

could certainly solve. Going

30:45

back and forth. What do you need? Well, let's get

30:47

that before we go on to learning

30:49

this.

30:50

Yeah. I mean, I, I see that as

30:52

a mistake, a lot of course, creators make, in fact,

30:54

I've made myself as well in putting

30:56

courses together. Um, and I see it

30:59

also, I've seen it a lot in companies like anybody

31:01

who's, who's gone through corporate training

31:03

will know what I'm talking about here. And

31:06

that's that as the educator,

31:08

the teacher, instead of date, we often assume

31:10

we know what learners need to learn. Um,

31:13

as versus first finding out

31:15

what they're interested in and then working

31:18

backwards from there. Right.

31:20

That that's a, that's a harder thing to

31:22

do. It's, you know, cause

31:24

you do have to have that two-way dialogue, but

31:28

it's almost like, I think I

31:30

just more and more convinced that if you don't do that,

31:32

you are wasting an incredible amount of resources

31:35

on something that just could completely

31:37

miss the mark.

31:38

Hmm, brilliant. You know,

31:40

we have a shout out here from Alaina in

31:42

Israel and she says

31:45

her business offers seamless math,

31:47

learning through gaming, which

31:49

I need to take. Great talk,

31:52

thank you for your insights. Thank

31:54

you, Elena. I'd love to hear about that.

31:56

And if you have any comments

31:59

that Andrew can help you with or any questions that

32:01

Andrew can help you with, please put

32:03

it in the chat. This is your golden opportunity.

32:06

And as you saw, I just took mine.

32:09

So Andrew, you have.

32:12

Yeah, it looks like a Lena actually has a

32:14

question a little bit further along,

32:16

down the chest. Wonderful.

32:20

Okay. So I was curious, do

32:22

you perceive the online learning as a replacement

32:25

to the face-to-face. Complimentary

32:28

format. How can it take the conventional

32:30

teachers into the next generation of

32:32

education?

32:34

Yeah. Yeah. I think that's such

32:36

an important point cause it's definitely not

32:38

a replacement. I don't think there ever

32:40

will be a full replacement for face-to-face

32:42

and, but face-to-face, by the way, I don't necessarily

32:44

mean it has to be live and in person, this

32:46

is face-to-face right to,

32:48

to some of the earlier conversation we've had. So,

32:51

but getting people together

32:53

in a synchronized way, in

32:55

a synchronous way, um, is,

32:58

is definitely key. And I do see it as

33:00

complimentary or sort of a hybrid approach.

33:03

In fact, that whole flywheel sprint approach is

33:05

very much a hybrid between asynchronous

33:08

and synchronous. Again, it's the learners go through

33:10

certain curators of content in their

33:12

own time. Which gives them a lens

33:14

through which to frame their ideas

33:17

and it gives them that, or primes them

33:19

to then have discussions about it and

33:21

then, then meet face

33:23

to face. Um, uh,

33:25

now for now at least on video and

33:27

they discuss it. So they, those

33:29

two work incredibly well together.

33:32

Um, and I think that's, and so to,

33:34

to the last part of the question of teachers

33:37

into the next generation, that

33:39

there are a few, there's a few great examples

33:41

about the, of this, um, as

33:44

a guy, that one that comes to mind in Kenya,

33:46

for example, his name's Peter beachy

33:49

is a science teacher, a

33:51

physical, like, uh, uh, uh,

33:54

physics teacher. And he,

33:57

um, so he started creating

33:59

like, he's just exceptionally good teacher. I

34:01

first and foremost, he has an incredible way of teaching

34:03

children, uh, physics. Um,

34:06

and what he's been able to do there is

34:08

created. Um, he

34:11

now teaches across the whole of Kenya. So

34:13

he's not geographically bound anymore to

34:16

the, you know, the town or the village or that

34:18

he's in. He can teach across the whole country

34:21

and learners across that entire

34:23

country have access to him in

34:26

that setting. So they're getting, you

34:28

know, in that case, it's synchronous, but they're getting like

34:30

the teaching from him. And then

34:32

what they have is these sort of, um,

34:35

In-person um,

34:37

like think of them, like sort

34:40

of like salons, you know, like the old, like Italian

34:42

Renaissance, like salon where people

34:44

would get together to, to just have

34:47

like a more freeform, like discussion. Um,

34:49

it's sorta like that concept, but for children, like they,

34:51

they then get together and they apply the stuff

34:53

that he's just taught them. So then they're like, watch,

34:56

maybe it's even a secret. Maybe they watch like

34:58

a prerecorded video from him, uh,

35:00

teaching a certain concept and then they've got all the equipment

35:02

and all that stuff to then apply that together

35:05

in there. So now you've got the entire

35:07

nation of Ken here able to

35:10

teach children, able to learn from him and then

35:12

apply it with the people in their town or village.

35:14

Um, and that's happening all over the world. There's another

35:16

guy in India who does this and an even

35:19

bigger scale is partnered with Microsoft.

35:21

And I think like, cause reached most

35:24

of India. Right. Which is insane.

35:26

Right. Um, and it also happens

35:28

to be a science teacher and yeah. So just,

35:30

that's kind of, for me, when you talk about the next generation

35:33

of education is. This

35:35

idea of like really skilled

35:37

teachers, like superstar teachers

35:39

able to reach hundreds

35:41

of thousands of students in a way

35:44

that also doesn't they don't learn,

35:46

they don't lose the ability to apply with

35:48

their learning because then they have these kind of like

35:50

mentor led or teaching assistant

35:53

led, uh, schools

35:55

within their district that can help

35:57

apply these things that they're learning. Hmm.

36:01

I want that to be the future of education.

36:06

Yeah. And that

36:08

blows me away because again, you

36:10

just solved a lot of problems instead

36:13

of, you know, you would say on

36:15

higher ed level, instead

36:17

of hiring, uh, thousands

36:20

of a hundred thousand plus a year, professors

36:23

doing their own little thing in their own little bubble,

36:26

you get these super teachers and

36:30

they have

36:31

no. It's

36:34

a very interesting discussion and sort of a

36:38

thought experiment to go through because there are

36:40

implications to those, right? If you get some

36:42

teachers kind of rise to the top as these

36:45

superstar teachers that does

36:47

reduce the opportunities for other teachers.

36:49

And there's actually a whole study about this, a guy

36:51

called I think it's show in Rosen. Um,

36:54

and it. Not specifically about

36:56

teaching, but it's called the economics of superstars.

36:59

Um, and I wrote a piece sort of adapting

37:01

his work to teach us called superstar

37:03

teachers. But, um, in the economics

37:05

of superstars, he goes through that whole thing of like, what

37:07

does that mean to people, um,

37:10

who don't rise to the top? And

37:12

I think there are interesting offsets. Things

37:15

like the teaching assistants. So this, those

37:17

that might help you, the ones setting the syllabus

37:20

and, and delivering the lesson,

37:22

but they could be that teaching assistant

37:24

role, uh, in the district or in

37:27

the neighborhood. Um, and, and that can

37:29

be extended. Like that can go, that can corporate

37:31

homeschooling, like every level of education

37:34

can now do this because you

37:36

can, those people can be trained in,

37:39

you know, these ideas. Um, and instead

37:42

of a train, the trainer approach and could help

37:44

kind of spread the word or spread the gospel

37:47

of these superstar dishes.

37:50

Elena says, thank you for your comments,

37:53

Andrew, you say you speak about the

37:56

economics and the superstar teachers. And they, it

37:58

always comes back to me, um,

38:00

you know, in the fear of

38:03

people from competition.

38:06

Um, and, and

38:08

I think. The future, the

38:11

question of Elena about the future of education

38:14

or next generation of education, we

38:16

call the show here, lifelong learners.

38:19

Um, and, and,

38:21

um, I

38:23

feel like as education

38:26

progress and as it becomes

38:29

more based on superstars and more based

38:31

in interactive and being more

38:33

engaged and people will want to keep

38:36

learn more. So if,

38:39

if the, you know, learning

38:41

capacity of a person in the old

38:43

fat in the old world of education

38:45

was, I don't know, 12 years in

38:48

the future, it will be 50 years. So

38:50

there's enough space for everybody because people

38:52

will learn more and

38:54

there's more, there are more opportunities for people,

38:56

for people to meet those

38:58

learners along their way, a longer

39:00

lines.

39:02

Yeah, I agree. I think so. You've got more

39:04

demand. Um, and I think that's

39:07

a very sound rationale.

39:09

And then I think on the supply side, you've got

39:11

another interesting dynamic, which is that people

39:14

there's no generic way

39:16

to teach. Like you, you can't commoditize

39:18

teaching, so you can never monopolize

39:21

the supply. I

39:23

teach how to create online courses,

39:25

but there are other people who teach that as well. And it's

39:28

everybody has their own style and their own approach.

39:30

And, um, you know, I

39:32

think most people would agree that the. Learning

39:35

from a, teacher's quite an intimate thing. Like you've got to know,

39:38

like, and trust that teacher, um,

39:40

to, to sort of give them your time

39:43

and your know the space and your brain to,

39:45

to learn from them. Um, and so, you

39:47

know, we've all had those teachers where we don't have that and you just,

39:50

you move on and you find a different one. So that,

39:52

that's another interesting aspect is that I think there's always

39:55

a, the market is so, so big to your point

39:57

that there's always a space for someone

39:59

to carve out their own niche of

40:01

teaching, whatever they're specifically good at, which

40:04

is why I always say that everyone

40:07

has an online course. And then I think everyone

40:10

has an ability to teach something and,

40:13

um, yeah. And, and, um, I'm going

40:15

to mission to help people do that.

40:17

Well, once you accomplish your mission,

40:21

how do we go about and get those

40:23

leads? You're an expert

40:25

in this.

40:27

Yeah. So wait, so let me clarify, what do you mean

40:29

by leads? Okay. I

40:31

want my business to grow.

40:33

I'm I've taken your course. I

40:36

have designed this incredible

40:38

course now, how

40:40

do I turn a profit with

40:41

it?

40:42

Yeah. Yeah. So if anybody

40:44

thinking about it from, from that perspective, a sort

40:46

of a more entrepreneurial approach, which I

40:48

appreciate that question because this is, I think

40:51

about all the time it's the

40:53

students I have. So for

40:55

me, it all starts with like you, you've got to figure

40:57

out who it is that you're teaching.

40:59

And that is a super specific thing, which

41:01

I I encourage people to boil down to one

41:03

specific person like who it

41:05

like, and often that's for people just

41:08

getting started. That's one of the best ways to start is

41:10

find a friend or colleague

41:13

or an internet friend, or even a family member that

41:15

you can meaningfully help

41:17

them increase their capacity in something,

41:20

and then do

41:22

that. So that's teaching, right? Like you're, you're

41:24

teaching them how to do something. So it could be helping

41:27

your, you know, your grandparents like figure

41:30

out how to use zoom, right? Like something like

41:32

that. But, um, you,

41:34

you got to build on that, right? Like, so it's gotta be a value

41:36

to more than just that one person, but

41:39

you start with one person. You build

41:41

out a value proposition and you do

41:43

it in a way that responds to their specific

41:46

challenges along the way. So

41:48

now what you've done is you've created like a mini

41:50

curriculum with that one person. Now

41:52

you want to try and expand that. And

41:55

so the next sort of step is to figure out where to

41:57

find more people like that. And this

41:59

is why it's so important to be so

42:01

specific. So it's not just we

42:03

help, um, you

42:05

know, people, um,

42:08

become more confident in their speaking.

42:10

It's I help startup

42:12

founders of early stage series.

42:15

You know, pre-seed companies,

42:18

uh, speak more confidently to raise money

42:20

for their series. A like so

42:22

super specific stuff I got because now

42:24

I can find a lot. I know where those people are. Right.

42:27

Um, whereas people, people everywhere,

42:29

I can't, I'm not gonna be able to narrow it down to certain

42:31

people that I'm looking for. So getting very

42:34

specific with that audience. And

42:36

then once you've identified them, there's a tribe with them. So

42:39

like in that example, you know, pre

42:41

seed, I don't know that's on, you probably know

42:43

this better than I do, but there's like tons of communities where people

42:45

that are, that are starting companies and founders

42:47

of companies like yourself, um, hang

42:49

out, you can go and, and interact

42:52

there. You can go and share content.

42:54

You can be helpful. All

42:56

of those kinds of things to get noticed, right?

42:58

And now you start to develop

43:00

that. And by the way, as you're doing that, you're also improving

43:02

your course. Cause you're getting more exposure

43:04

to more questions, more challenges, et cetera.

43:07

You're finding ways to refine. So it's this constant

43:09

evolution. It goes back to what we were saying earlier, right? There's

43:11

no, you don't go in with some predefined.

43:13

These are the 12 steps you build

43:16

that with your audience. Um, and

43:18

so it's, so it's basically that process

43:20

just repeated over and over and you get to a

43:22

bigger and bigger scale. You get into

43:24

sort of more tactical stuff, but you've got to

43:26

start to find. You

43:29

know, sort of bigger mediums that like we've

43:31

talked about Twitter, LinkedIn, like those are obviously great

43:33

channels to get in front of a lot more people.

43:36

Do. You also got to get those people in

43:39

a practically, you've

43:41

got to get them to the best way to do is get

43:43

them to sign up for an email. And if you

43:45

send it like a weekly email to people, and now they've taken

43:47

some level of optins to get to know you a bit

43:50

more. And, and essentially

43:52

it's just turning strangers who fit

43:54

that archetype. And so people

43:56

that know you like you and hopefully

43:58

trust you so they can eventually buy

44:00

from you.

44:02

But how do you make them want to

44:04

take your course? Like if

44:08

you can give us some tips, maybe, maybe read examples.

44:10

Um, and because at the end

44:12

of the day, it's a product, it's a service and people

44:15

buy what they want to buy, what

44:17

they need. Um, so how, how

44:19

do you go about this with.

44:22

Yeah. So for me, it all

44:24

sort of stems from the transformation

44:26

that you can promise that's your in

44:29

business terms, that's your value proposition, right?

44:31

So we talked about like, get into

44:33

first getting very specific of who your ideal

44:35

customer or ideal student is. Uh,

44:38

now you've got a frame, a value proposition

44:40

for them and I call it your transformation

44:42

statement. So it w this

44:45

is again what we talked about earlier, by the

44:47

end of this course program,

44:49

whatever you will be able to.

44:51

So w what is the action you'll be

44:53

able to take? And the

44:56

key thing with this, and this is true for

44:58

a product or a business as well, is that it must

45:00

be framed in terms of the sort of

45:02

classic, um, Kate

45:04

Christensen jobs to be done framework

45:07

like it. What does, what does it enable

45:10

them to do? So, in my case,

45:12

I teach you about how to create online. That

45:14

in and of itself is not a very sexy

45:16

proposition. Like, okay, well, cool. Like creating

45:19

an online course. Some people will get the value

45:21

of that, but not everyone will. So what

45:23

is it, what I'm actually doing is I'm

45:25

helping people scale their impact or,

45:28

you know, to reach more people, uh,

45:30

change more lives, um, create

45:32

a sustainable income,

45:35

uh, get freedom from

45:37

their job, you know, by the

45:39

vehicle for that is an online course

45:41

in, in my, in my, realm.

45:44

But for other people it's different things, right. But it's

45:46

like, what is the, what does that allow them to do?

45:49

So that's the key. So when

45:51

you're thinking of an online course, you've gotta be thinking about

45:54

what is your course, your

45:56

teaching, your methodology and frameworks

45:58

allow them to do, and

46:00

it's gotta be something appealing. It's gotta be, you

46:03

know, The sorta, like, it's gotta be

46:05

a marketing thing, like, um,

46:07

you know, like status, uh, wealth,

46:10

uh, you know, happiness, whatever, like some

46:12

kind of like, uh, in, in goal

46:14

there, and the key part

46:16

of the whole, all of this, those you've got to really

46:18

be able to guarantee that that's

46:20

the other thing. So you've got to then work backwards from

46:22

there and say, well, how can I guarantee

46:25

that outcome for people? Right? Cause

46:27

ultimately like you went to last

46:29

very long, if you make this big promise and deliver

46:32

on it.

46:33

Hmm. I think this is, um, you know, this is

46:35

so important that the answer today. The

46:39

learner, the per the person

46:42

that really wants the course

46:44

will also get the most out of it, obviously.

46:46

And then, you know, we'll value you better

46:49

and we'll reference, give great references.

46:51

So as much as

46:53

you can make them want to

46:55

take it and be motivated to take the course,

46:58

uh, you probably get gonna get better results.

47:00

And, and I'm always curious, how

47:03

can we, how can this,

47:05

um, statement be applied

47:07

on, um,

47:10

you know, on places that are mandatory, right?

47:12

Not all courses are taken by,

47:15

uh we'll. If we go to

47:17

K to 12, you know, kids go to school, they

47:19

have to take the course or other places

47:22

that they have to take to course. I'm

47:25

not sure about the process, but I'm pretty sure

47:28

that at the end of the day, if, uh,

47:30

if that organization can

47:32

find a way to create

47:35

this motivation at the learners,

47:38

even though they have to take it, but make

47:40

them feel like they want to make, they make the

47:42

choice, maybe give them a choice

47:44

of what to take, which of course, um,

47:47

I always feel like, you know, in, in my experience

47:49

I always gave in given learners, in my

47:51

organizations place of choice, they

47:53

never had to choose to go through one

47:55

specific class. I feel

47:57

like it, it makes the whole experience,

48:00

um, a much more successful.

48:02

Um, and, um, Elena is

48:04

here and specifically I know about

48:06

one big project that she's working on. So

48:09

I think this is something that worth

48:12

thinking about. How can you, even

48:14

when you run the program at school, Um,

48:18

and you really want the kids to take

48:20

the, to, to, to get that

48:22

knowledge because it's so important that

48:24

they will have this knowledge when they finish school or whatever.

48:28

If the question, first question is, how do you make them want

48:30

to learn? Um, just

48:33

putting it out there.

48:34

All right. Now, I think you, I think you've alluded to a lot of the

48:36

onset as well. It's so much of it comes

48:39

down to, to intrinsic motivation,

48:41

right? You can say, this is

48:43

what this course is going to like to do, or

48:46

this is why you should take this path. But unless

48:48

they like truly believe that it connected

48:50

with something. They want,

48:53

then you're not, you're going to be fighting an uphill

48:55

battle the whole time. So first of all, I love

48:57

your idea of giving two to like multiple

49:00

options. I think that's, um, that's

49:02

really important, even if, sometimes

49:04

it's sort of the illusion of choice, but the

49:06

fact that there's some choice in, I think is important. Um,

49:10

and then, yeah, so this goes back to

49:12

one of those three P's personal meaning. So I

49:15

think if in a school setting, if you can

49:17

show kids examples

49:20

of what you can do by learning,

49:23

by taking this path or this path and give it, you

49:25

know, and then get them to think

49:27

about like, what would that

49:29

make me, you know, what would I want to do with that? Like

49:31

maybe it's, um, I

49:33

don't know, like, I haven't thought about school education

49:36

in a very long time, but yeah. Like I,

49:38

you know, whatever, like the motivating factor is

49:40

off for a kid of whatever age would be talking about

49:42

yet that they can start to connect

49:44

some of the outcomes that other kids have had

49:47

with the program to outcomes that they'd like

49:49

to have. Right. And be like, oh yeah. You know,

49:52

make it like super practical for them. And then, then

49:54

it feels, then it is a Trinity motivate.

49:56

Now they working towards something

49:58

that they want for themselves at the end

50:00

of it. And your course is just

50:02

the vehicle that gets them there. Hmm.

50:05

So Andrew, I'm somebody like Alina

50:08

out in our audience and

50:10

I've got my project and

50:12

I'm going to create that avatar

50:14

in my mind, or, you know, my neighbor, somebody

50:17

who needs this kind of course.

50:19

Um, and I'm going to follow

50:22

your. Your

50:24

road of know, like,

50:26

and trust. Now, do

50:28

I start small on a micro level,

50:31

family and friends, uh,

50:33

reach out into the neighborhood like that? Or

50:35

do I use the magic of the internet and

50:39

blast it to the entire world? What's

50:41

the way to go?

50:43

Yeah, definitely the former cause trust me

50:45

from experience that you will

50:48

be incredibly frustrating to start with the latter.

50:50

Um, I did that, uh, I

50:52

don't know, 3, 4, 5 years ago when I first got

50:55

into the online course world and I thought, eh, that's all

50:57

he needs to do. Right? There's so many people on LinkedIn,

50:59

Twitter. Start talking about it and people

51:01

will come, but it doesn't really work

51:04

like that. Um, so yes,

51:06

uh, your, the first suggestion,

51:08

people who already know you right. Start there.

51:11

Um, I love we

51:14

dots on and, and, um,

51:16

and Josh and, and we've talked a lot

51:18

for offline as well. And I think there's a lot of

51:20

interesting stuff that clicked is working on that

51:23

leverages existing networks. Um,

51:26

of these, um, enrichment

51:28

programs, right? So there's, there's already a neighborhood

51:31

community that's built up around these schools,

51:33

their kids and their parents

51:36

that know about these schools. Now they have friends

51:39

and relatives in other countries

51:41

and other states in other parts of the world,

51:43

right. You haven't heard. And obviously, you

51:45

know, they just can't get to that school. But

51:48

now if those schools think about coming

51:50

online, those people cannot benefit

51:52

from them. And then what's the best marketing

51:54

you could possibly have as a school like that

51:57

in anything really is, is word of mouth,

51:59

right. As someone who's gone through it, who's

52:01

had that transformation telling

52:03

others about it. Um, and so that's

52:06

why I focus most of my. So

52:09

the energy of the teaching is, is getting people

52:11

to really deliver those transformations. Once

52:13

you've got that, then you go, like

52:15

you said, now what's the tactics on

52:17

that? Do you go and get those people that already know

52:19

you? And you say, Hey, I'm doing this thing. I'm

52:22

trying to expand the school. We're gonna go online.

52:24

Um, and

52:27

so they, they start to tell others and

52:29

you, then you can then do things like

52:32

create spaces like this. Like

52:34

we're having this live call. You know, you,

52:36

you host things like that and you get them

52:39

to invite their friends and stuff. And so you can start

52:41

to sort of spread the word that gets people

52:43

to know you. Then the,

52:45

the live Q part is bringing

52:47

your personality into things. So,

52:50

you know, it goes back to also what we were saying earlier about

52:52

the supply side of it not being commoditized,

52:55

right? It's very like each teacher is different.

52:57

Each person teaching something and their niche

52:59

is going to have a different way of doing it. So that's, you

53:02

know, I, and I was actually, I had to be quite

53:04

deliberate about this at the beginning, but just bringing in like your

53:06

own personality. Yeah. You, you could see

53:08

for those watching online, like these two African

53:10

prints behind me is from

53:12

South Africa. So like, that's a big part of my personality.

53:15

That's in all the music I played

53:17

in, in the online course, I ran in the beginning of this year, it

53:19

was like African theme. And so like

53:21

little things like that that gets people

53:24

to like, know a part of your personality

53:27

that gives them more of a chance of IQ. And some

53:29

won't like that. And that's fine.

53:31

Like the sooner, you know, that the better as well. Right.

53:33

Because then they're just, they're never going to buy from you.

53:35

Um, and then the trust part is just being reliable, just

53:38

constantly delivering good, good

53:40

content, uh, consistently,

53:43

um, and you know, being helpful.

53:45

Um, pretty much I recommend people

53:47

give away 99%

53:49

of everything for free. Um,

53:52

that's, that's what gets people to trust you because

53:55

they will always come back to once they know you like

53:57

you and trust you, they will always come back and pay

53:59

for the 1% because the 1%

54:01

is what's going to get them to transplant.

54:05

So Andrew, you are, you're

54:07

helping. I mean, with

54:09

your programs now you're helping people

54:12

build a business based on

54:15

their, uh, superstar teacher

54:17

power or hidden power. Um,

54:20

and how

54:24

it can, can that become a real business?

54:27

Can that become something that people can

54:29

really live out of it grow,

54:31

maybe start building

54:34

it with more people involved and

54:36

be hiring more people to work

54:38

for them and teach for them. Can, can that be

54:40

a real business?

54:42

Yeah, I'm a hundred percent.

54:44

A hundred percent. Um, I,

54:46

I feel examples. I mean, I, I

54:48

ran a program at the beginning of this year. Worked

54:52

with another company to do that. So this wasn't all

54:54

my doing and all

54:57

the w w but basically we

54:59

got 150 people to sign up. They were each

55:01

paying between two and $3,000.

55:03

So there was a $350,000

55:06

launch. Okay. Um, that,

55:08

like I had direct experience to that. I

55:11

didn't keep all that money. Um, um,

55:13

but the, the experience was

55:15

there. Like, I know it's possible. I know it can be done.

55:18

The key thing. There was this, the company I

55:20

came with, the contents and the audience,

55:22

and they came with the reach. So they were able to amplify. Uh,

55:25

that message to more people that,

55:28

that could then identify with the audience I was bringing

55:30

in. So I always recommend

55:32

to people is as you thinking about this,

55:34

first of all, don't think about it like that.

55:36

You'll never get that on

55:38

your own when you're starting up, but

55:41

if you partner with the right people that

55:43

have bigger audiences, you can absolutely

55:45

do that. Um, so that's one small example.

55:48

I know of a guy I worked with who has

55:50

a big audience himself, so he never had to partner with people,

55:53

but he makes over a million pounds a year

55:56

from teaching. Um,

55:59

in fact, I know a bunch of people who make over a million

56:01

dollars a year from teaching. So it's, it

56:03

is definitely doable.

56:05

These are just the beginning. So in general,

56:07

we were at the very beginning of this, like people,

56:10

uh, this is like the

56:12

gold rush in California. Like it's just

56:14

the beginning, right? People are just coming in there,

56:16

the early Millie millionaires being mentored

56:18

right now. Uh, there's going

56:20

to be a lot to your point earlier, a

56:22

lot more demand. That's going to build up. There's going to be

56:24

a much bigger buckets, a lot more to

56:26

go around. Um, so, so

56:29

yes, you know, I can't promise everyone's going to be

56:32

a millionaire, but I think there's going to be

56:34

a lot of sustainable businesses built

56:36

around specific knowledge

56:39

and delivered in a way that delivers

56:41

transformations for people. Ooh,

56:45

this, this sounds exciting. This

56:47

sounds like something that I,

56:49

and the people who are listening to you now

56:52

want to jump onto, but

56:54

I got to ask you, we're

56:56

talking about growth of

56:58

a company. Did you

57:00

ever trip and fall along the.

57:03

Alright. Yeah, countless times.

57:06

And it's, it is a long, a long

57:08

thing. That's why my program is a year because

57:11

you can't teach this stuff in

57:13

eight weeks. Like, like I

57:15

did in that program, I mentioned, um, which

57:17

was very successful, but it was just,

57:19

it was so intense. It was a really intense

57:22

sprint for people you need time

57:24

to, to put good habits and routines

57:26

into place. Um, and to,

57:28

to get to know your audience, like, you know, Dota

57:30

and you'll know from firsthand experience,

57:32

I'm sure like finding that product market fit

57:35

or in my world core student fit takes

57:37

time. Like, and there's no other way around it. It's just

57:39

applying time to it and having as many interactions

57:42

as you can until you find that that fit. Um,

57:44

and so, so yeah, so it,

57:47

it definitely takes time. I've, I've

57:49

tripped up and stumbled a bunch. I, I

57:51

mentioned earlier, like, you know, getting started

57:53

and sort of starting with many years ago

57:55

with that spray and pray approach,

57:58

you know, definitely. Um,

58:00

start small, start with one person build

58:02

from there. Um, and

58:04

I wasted a lot of money on tactics

58:07

and hacks and growth tricks and,

58:10

uh, you know, ad spending on

58:12

ads. Like all of those things,

58:15

some of them have their place, but you need

58:17

to, you need to first get the basics,

58:19

right? You need to be able to deliver a consistent

58:21

transformation to people. Uh,

58:23

you need to have you to know what you're about. Like,

58:26

what are you, who are you as a teacher? Um,

58:28

what's your teacher identity? You know

58:30

that you've got to have those sorts of things in place first. And

58:34

so my program teaches people how to create a workshop.

58:36

Like I think you should start like that once

58:38

you've got one person scale it up. And if

58:40

you get a workshop together and you have 10, 15

58:42

people show up, like that is a success, you

58:45

now have something to work on that. And

58:48

then the hard work starts of building the business

58:50

side of it, which you do

58:52

with your audience and all this sort of stuff we've been talking

58:54

about. Um, yeah, those are some

58:57

of the lessons that it sounds

58:59

like a long journey. Um,

59:01

but in our digital world

59:03

and everything that is online, that

59:06

journey actually shrinks to become much

59:09

faster and quicker as time goes.

59:11

Um, just before, uh, Jackie's

59:14

going to close this because we out of time, Andrew,

59:17

if you can tell the audience, um,

59:19

if anybody wants to connect with you

59:21

or learn more about one of the programs for

59:23

the shape, where should they go?

59:25

Yeah, thanks. It's on. So the best

59:28

place to connect with me and I love talking to people

59:30

on Twitter. Um, so, um,

59:32

at, as a Russo, be a

59:35

Zed AR UTO, um,

59:37

you can, you can get in touch with me there. Um,

59:40

and if you're interested in the course, are we talking

59:42

about as well, but you can go to course of

59:44

action. Dot IO. Um,

59:46

and you'll find out more details about it there, if

59:49

you want to be part of one of those very early days,

59:51

if you want to be part of one of those people that are helping to

59:53

shape it. Um, yeah.

59:56

That's, that's it. Awesome.

59:59

Thank you guys. Great. Yeah,

1:00:01

that's the way. And thank you both for

1:00:04

having me here and for the excellent questions. I,

1:00:06

I could talk about this stuff all day. Um,

1:00:09

perhaps we will in the future. So

1:00:11

thanks so much, Andrew. You're

1:00:14

inspiring, and I really appreciate

1:00:16

that. And thank you so much, Joe, Tom,

1:00:18

your insight is amazing also.

1:00:21

So everyone out there,

1:00:23

we will see you next week. Next week

1:00:25

we will be live at 1130

1:00:28

as opposed to 11:00 AM today.

1:00:30

So I want to thank everyone out there.

1:00:32

Come back, bring your questions,

1:00:35

bring your comments. And we hope

1:00:37

we can develop as a community of

1:00:39

lifelong learners.

1:00:42

Thank you. Thank you, Jackie. Thanks everyone. Thanks.

1:00:44

Thank you.