0:01

Are you ready for this? Sean

0:04

Merriman A one hand effect. Boom

0:06

boom, boom, out go the light. This

0:10

is Lights Out with Sean

0:12

Merriman. What's up,

0:14

guys. We're back again with another Lights Out podcast

0:16

with me Sean Raymond and UH. We're

0:18

going to one of the hottest industries in

0:21

I would say the country, probably in the world. Um

0:24

at the great deck growing and something I did

0:26

when I was a kid, UH, and that's collecting

0:28

cards, trading cards. They we got Jason

0:30

Holworth, the VP of

0:32

Panini America trading cards. Myself,

0:35

I have a deal in partnership with UH.

0:38

Panini. They had been great partners in mine over the

0:40

course of this past year, so a couple

0:42

of years now and UH doing

0:44

some great things, launching some new products and

0:47

UM. Like I said, it's one of the hottest industries.

0:49

Heard a friend of mine, Gary Gary

0:52

V, talking about it maybe about five or six

0:54

years ago, before this industry even got big.

0:57

UM. So we'll have Jason Haworth

0:59

coming on a day, who's a VP

1:01

of Panini America, and talk about the expansion

1:04

growth and their plans and what they're planning on doing.

1:08

You know, Actually, I gotta deal with you guys, I got

1:10

like three or four more signings on my um

1:13

yep, on my deal over that I've been been working

1:15

with you guys for a for a while now. Yeah,

1:17

absolutely, so well, thank

1:19

you for signing those cards that are important to the

1:21

fan base for sure and to us

1:24

of course. So so let me so let me ask

1:26

you always and just something I wanted to know, how do

1:28

you guys kind

1:30

of you know, know what's hot and know

1:32

what's in the market, know what's needed. Right, So even when

1:34

I do signings myself, do you

1:36

guys you know, just know the

1:38

temperature of the market and certain

1:40

guys might have a big game or certain guys might

1:42

have a big social media presence

1:45

because you know, I still every day on social media

1:47

people ask me to sign stuff. But how do you

1:49

guys like evaluate you know,

1:51

how you know what what cards or what athletes

1:53

to go after and do deals with. Yeah?

1:56

Yeah, so I mean obviously, um,

1:58

you know, we're how on the active

2:01

on the active side, so active players

2:03

and rookies, Um, you

2:05

know, the rookies tend to predominance,

2:07

you can imagine, are predominantly heavy

2:09

on the offensive side of the ball. Uh.

2:12

You know, collectors like people that score touchdowns.

2:14

I disagree with that. I like dudes that sack

2:17

quarterbacks as well. So but

2:19

you know, so we're have you on the rookie side, on the

2:21

skill position side, and then as we dig into

2:23

the veteran side of that, you know, you start

2:25

to see more of the defensive players, and

2:28

then you've got the legend component and the legend

2:30

component. I want to say, we probably have maybe

2:34

a hundred and fifty legends that we

2:36

you know, or retired guys that

2:38

we you know, we dig into our you know,

2:41

our group and it and it really

2:43

varies depending on what we're you

2:45

know, what we're looking at. But we

2:47

we tend to have more flexibility on the retired

2:50

guys from a defensive player because they

2:52

hadn't been they hadn't been featured so

2:54

much as an autograph trading card during

2:57

their playing you know, during their playing years

2:59

or as a key, so you know, getting

3:01

guys like you or Troy Polamala or

3:03

you name it. I mean Troy didn't have

3:06

an autograph card for years. I

3:08

mean he almost I think he the

3:11

last few years he played, he didn't have an autograph

3:13

card. You know. Then when he retired, we were able

3:15

to get him to start signing cards. So, um,

3:19

you know, good balance there. And then obviously

3:22

fan favorites and you're certainly one of those.

3:24

Does does a fan base dictate a

3:26

lot of that? So like, obviously Troy

3:28

play for the Steelers and they have

3:30

a ridiculous fan base, right, So do

3:32

you have is there like a difference

3:35

in a guy that's same equal

3:37

talent and you know, obviously Troy Pallymala is going to

3:39

go down as one of the best safeties ever. But you

3:41

know, take a you know, guy that's not Troy

3:43

Polamala, but it was really good four or five six

3:45

Pro Bowls that play for um,

3:48

you know, Green Bay, or a guy to play

3:50

you know, four or five to play for

3:52

the Dog, you know, somebody with a smaller fan

3:55

base. Is that that changed the situation?

3:57

The fan base definitely changes the position,

4:00

definitely changes the situation. But I

4:02

think that you know, there are guys that you

4:04

know, if you're a standout player, it

4:06

almost doesn't matter what team you're from,

4:09

right I mean obviously there are teams that are certainly

4:11

more collectible and then other

4:13

teams, and that always plays into it. You wouldn't

4:15

be surprised on who those are. But I mean last

4:18

year the hottest rookie was Justin Herbert. So

4:20

from a fan base perspective, I mean, and that's

4:22

the thing is like on the rookie side, it doesn't matter,

4:24

right, Like on the rookie side, you know, I mean,

4:27

would we would would we have loved to seeing Trevor Lawrence

4:30

in the New York Jets uniform. Sure it's

4:32

the New York market, but you know, he's one

4:34

of those guys that can translate, you know,

4:37

against Jacksonville regardless. So

4:39

the rookie class tends

4:41

to this, well, we might root

4:43

for them to be on certain teams in certain

4:45

markets because there's that exponential you

4:48

know. I think about, you know, the year

4:50

Dakins Zeke came into the league and they

4:52

happened to be Dallas Cowboys, Like do they

4:54

I mean, obviously that was huge because it was

4:56

the Cowboys and then you had two really

4:59

great keys performing, you know,

5:01

at the same time on that team, So that just elevated

5:04

it a bit more. Um,

5:06

you know, teams certainly, you know, having

5:09

the impact, but they're definitely guys if

5:11

they're hot rookie, it almost doesn't matter,

5:13

you know. I think about Kyler Murray with the Arizona Cardinals

5:15

when he came out still hot, you know, no,

5:18

no, okay, So let me let me ask you this. So

5:21

one of my best friends the other day,

5:23

Um, he's a huge and I got the cards in

5:25

here and stuff like that of my own. Um,

5:27

and a lot of these guys are friends of mine with people that

5:29

I know. So I'm like, hey, yo, dude, signage

5:32

for me. So I got you know, ten fifty, I gotta

5:34

justin Herbert, you know, Rookie, I

5:36

got all. I got some stuff in there myself. But

5:39

one of my one of my boys that pulled the other day,

5:41

one of uh, I think Lee um one

5:43

of the balls prisms he and

5:46

I think the car was worth eighteen and nineteen

5:49

grand is something along

5:51

those lines, right, So I mean, obviously,

5:53

I mean we've seen that Lebronze goal for

5:55

millions, and some of these cards out there go for millions

5:58

of dollars. But was so

6:00

if you get a card like you

6:02

know, um ball from from the Hornage,

6:05

what's the next level up? Like Sea goals to it? You

6:08

know, Rookie here a couple of All Star games.

6:11

How does a market dictate how much

6:13

that that card is um is worth.

6:16

Yeah. Absolutely, the market totally dictates

6:18

it. And I think that that's the other thing that's kind

6:20

of evolved in the trading card space is that

6:23

you know, before those high value cards used

6:25

to just be about that rookie

6:27

card that had the autograph signature on it.

6:29

Maybe it was limited to five or you

6:31

know, one of one with an NBA logo.

6:33

Man, But now what you're seeing and you're

6:36

referencing our prison brand, our prison brand

6:38

is a monster, like you know it? What

6:41

where did that? Where did that come from? Like? What? Like

6:43

honest, because I have a whole I got a couple of packs

6:45

in here myself. How how did you guys

6:48

put that as the How did that come about? When

6:50

you put that as the elite package?

6:52

Yeah? So, I mean we introduced prison in teen

6:55

and it took it had to get its legs, and there was

6:57

you know, some people that had mixed feelings

6:59

over it. But you know, in the last three

7:02

or four years, it's just absolutely blown up

7:04

because of the powerallels. And to your point,

7:06

you get a beautiful those cards

7:08

are beautiful, but you get a beautiful

7:10

parallel or red version of pink, version

7:13

of blue, version a purple version, of

7:15

green version, you name it. You know, they all

7:17

have certain levels of value

7:20

based on the color parallel it is,

7:22

and so you know that dictates

7:25

some of that. And then obviously who the

7:27

player is. And so you know clearly, you

7:29

know, they're three guys that

7:31

you know, could arguably have stood out

7:33

this year minus injuries, you

7:36

know, in this NBA rookie class, LaMelo being

7:38

one of them for sure. So I mean did

7:40

go on to win Rookie of the Year. So um,

7:43

you know, so that's obviously going to drive the category

7:45

and drive the market. What's but

7:47

what's amazing is we what we're talking about

7:49

was the fact that I mean it's about autographed and

7:52

but that that prison

7:54

version and that parallel version is so sought

7:56

after because it's such a and you

7:58

know, tied to the right air. But that's

8:01

what drives dot value on the card. Fox

8:03

Sports Radio has the best sports talk

8:05

lineup in the nation. Catch all of

8:07

our shows at Fox sports Radio dot

8:10

com and within the I Heart Radio

8:12

app search f s R to listen

8:14

live. No, So

8:17

I got mind set to me and it's you know,

8:19

I got my ten or one of one or whatever

8:22

it is. So I I get that point.

8:24

Let me let me ask you about this because I just recently

8:26

over the past year got into the

8:28

n f T s UM because

8:31

you explain, because I know what it is, but maybe

8:33

there's some people out there that don't fully understand

8:35

what n f T is and how important

8:37

it is that you got sure. So

8:39

it literally we launched our blockchain

8:42

platform in January

8:44

and back then, and it's hard to believe it's

8:47

like literally eighteen months ago, right, I

8:49

mean, no one had any idea what n

8:51

f T was. I mean we didn't even make it it

8:53

like as a high like as a high point

8:55

of like, hey, this is a message point to

8:57

the consumer, is hey, there's a non fund

9:00

bill token tied to this card on this blockchain

9:02

platform. Because everyone was so

9:04

focused about blockchain. You know,

9:06

blockchain is super important. The

9:09

n f T is the engine that makes

9:11

the asset live on the blockchain.

9:13

Right, There's an asset that's tied

9:15

to it so that you can track it wherever it goes.

9:18

That's the non vlungible token, right.

9:20

That was super important when we started to look at

9:22

n f T s and blockchain, what it meant,

9:25

like how we would integrate it into trading cards.

9:27

We saw a ton of value in that, Hey,

9:29

it would perform, it would carry a ledger of knowing

9:32

who owned the best Kobe Bryant card.

9:35

You know, you'd be able to track that. If you opened up

9:37

a physical card, you wouldn't know who

9:39

has the best Kobe Bryant collection or any

9:41

you know, for anything or that matter. You

9:43

know, blockchain and n f T

9:45

allows you to track that over a ledger

9:47

of time to see where, you know, who

9:49

owns that asset. So that was

9:52

super important to us when we kicked it off. The

9:54

other part that was really important was helping

9:56

collectors understand the value of the asset.

9:59

And so early on, you know, they didn't

10:01

understand you know, the value of an n f

10:03

T asset you know, on the blockchain

10:05

compared to a physical card. So what we did

10:07

was we when we launched it, we tied we

10:10

built a hundred cards set and we had

10:12

a physical card tied to every one of

10:14

those assets, so they got the value

10:16

of the physical card. You know, National

10:18

Chargers version. You mentioned that one of one really

10:21

nice clean looking card thick has

10:23

a piece of memorability in it, player

10:26

autograph on it, So they knew

10:29

the value of that physical card and

10:31

then they weren't so sure of

10:33

what the n f T value was, but you could see a

10:35

premium coming with it because there was a digital

10:38

element tied to it. So

10:40

that was that first phase, first step. Then we went

10:42

into like purely launching just n

10:44

f T blockchain assets that

10:46

just lived on our site and they were scarce,

10:49

like that's the other part. The DNA

10:51

of of trading cards has always been

10:53

scarcity. There's been other

10:56

n f T s out in the market that you know, who've gone

10:58

up with huge numbers and have saturated

11:00

the marketplace. You know, We're focused

11:03

on building a level of scarcity so that we can

11:05

replicate the physical

11:07

value of a card to the n f

11:09

T space um through scarcity,

11:12

So that was super important to us. We started

11:14

with just individualized cards on the

11:16

n f t um blockchain, making

11:19

those cards available on our site at Panini America

11:21

dot net. And then just four weeks ago we

11:24

introduced our first pack product,

11:26

which was our NBA n f T pack products,

11:29

and that's been on fire. We literally just launched

11:31

our sneaker Spotlight n f T packs

11:34

this morning and they sold They sold

11:36

out in a minute, like it was you

11:38

know, how how long do you think

11:40

that's gonna last? Right? Because the very first

11:42

person I seemed talking about how big

11:44

trade and could now obviously I collected when I was a kid

11:46

and stuff like that, but it kind of had

11:49

a period where it died down a little bit, right,

11:51

and then it came back on. The first person I seemed talking

11:53

about it was Gary V. That

11:55

that was I might have missed other people, but you know,

11:57

he had to loud his voice, right, He was the one that was only

11:59

that think it was in two thousand fourteen or

12:02

fifteen. He was like, hey guys, these trading

12:04

cards are coming back around, and it's so how

12:06

long do you think that it's going to be

12:08

big like this? Or do you see

12:10

it not only being this big and getting bigger?

12:13

It's getting bigger. So what the

12:15

difference between what happened when we were kids,

12:17

right, is like, you know, I grew up in the eighties

12:19

collected cards. You know, the

12:22

trading card companies just oversaturated

12:24

the marketplace with with cards, so

12:26

that all those cards that we collected as kids,

12:28

thinking that they were going to be valuable weren't

12:31

because it was super saturated. The

12:33

markets changed and shifted so that you've

12:35

got unique numbering on cards now,

12:38

Um, so you know exactly that there's only

12:40

six hundred of these cards in the world, or four

12:43

of these cards in the world, or a one of one

12:45

is truly a one of one, right,

12:48

So you've got that part. And the other side

12:50

that's different from you know, back in the day when

12:52

we were kids, is that the market has expanded.

12:55

Right. It used to be that you just walk into your

12:57

own hobby store and that was your

12:59

commune city. You didn't know what

13:02

was happening outside of that space. Now

13:04

you've got case breaking happening, things happening

13:06

online, You've got guys opening up product

13:08

online. So it's really become a global

13:11

community where people can see what's happening

13:13

in the space. And the market has totally

13:15

grown, you know global. We

13:17

we've we launched our social platforms in China

13:20

in August of nineteen and then are

13:22

direct to consumer platform in China right

13:25

in the middle of the pandemic in March of March,

13:30

and that's grown exponentially over there.

13:32

So we've seen the global marketplace

13:35

expand in terms of their excitement

13:37

for trading cards and as we balance

13:39

out that supply and demand, making sure that

13:41

we maintain that level of scarcity.

13:43

Is the market grows, the scarcity

13:46

in some cases still say it still stays

13:48

the same. So that's not changing.

13:50

Um. And then you've got great personalities you

13:52

think about, you know what's happening. You know in

13:55

the football space, You've got the young guys coming

13:57

up. You've obviously got those

13:59

guys that are the that dreams that are kind of

14:01

you know, still playing, that mean everything

14:03

to the world. You know, I'm from Boston,

14:05

so I'm gonna use Tom Brady as an example. You

14:08

know, that's it, man, what I'm getting

14:10

off of. You know, listen, I remember those

14:12

games. Those games were rough, man, you

14:14

know, always had me nervous. You and LT

14:16

and you know, Philip

14:19

Rivers those guys, it was. It was rough.

14:22

But you know so but

14:24

I mean, so you've got those guys that are

14:26

there and established, and then you've got guys

14:28

coming up, whether that be Patrick Mahomes or Justin

14:30

Herbert last year. You know that that continue

14:33

to evolve our you know, um,

14:35

you know, those are the guys that are driving the category

14:37

now, um. You know, and those

14:39

are the those are the ones that are going to continue to build

14:42

the marketplace. Overall on the football side,

14:44

and then I'll obviously on the basketball side,

14:47

guys like Luca don Chick is just you

14:49

know, I mean, they're huge. So

14:51

that's what that mel was my next question. You're

14:54

talking about the global expansion, mean you guys getting

14:56

bigger, Like take somebody like Luca,

14:58

right, do you the un now go into

15:01

maybe his country internationally and launched

15:03

something specifically with him or you're

15:05

like, you're going with these guys that it's that the

15:08

role map. Um No, we we when

15:10

we launch a product, it's a global product.

15:12

You know, from a trading card person right off the top,

15:14

it's it's global right away. Absolutely. So

15:16

Luca is one of those guys that's an exclusive

15:19

Panini athletes, so he signs memorabilia

15:21

for us as well. And obviously, you

15:23

know, had a great game of

15:25

a few days ago. I'm losing track of the days

15:27

here, Um, what's happening in Tokyo. But

15:30

obviously great game the other day. Um,

15:32

you know, that continues to just grow his

15:35

popularity, you know, globally, what

15:37

he does on the world stage, you know, in addition

15:39

to just the NBA stage. So what's so

15:41

what's next? I mean, obviously the guys

15:44

working on global, the n f T s are getting

15:46

bigger. Is there something coming in the

15:48

market that people are not really paying attention

15:50

to as much? I'm not asking you to give up you guys secrets

15:52

and next moves, but is there something you're

15:54

seeing that people aren't really paying attention

15:57

to in this space yet that you guys see coming.

15:59

So, I mean, obviously UFC we

16:01

launched our first product here um

16:03

a few months about two and a half months ago,

16:05

and that's been absolutely on fire. Our

16:08

next UFC product drops this week,

16:10

our UFC Select product. We're seeing

16:12

a lot of growth there. Um, They've

16:14

got some great personalities. I mean everyone

16:16

always talks about Connor, but there's some great

16:18

fighters across then. You

16:21

know, it's reel. It's reel. All these guys

16:23

were would be you know, even

16:25

you know John Jones it there's a couple of big

16:28

personality would say about ten guys

16:30

that would do extremely

16:32

well when it's time. Yeah,

16:34

absolutely, So, I mean those guys

16:36

are you know, are driving the space right

16:38

now, and I think that's a growth opportunity

16:41

and people are getting excited about that. Um,

16:44

you know, like I said, we just introduced our first

16:46

product and and it went great. I

16:48

have no doubt Select is going to crush

16:50

it here when it launches here in the next couple

16:52

of days. Um, you know. And then

16:54

the other side is, you know, obviously what's happening

16:56

in this n I L space. The N I L space

16:58

is wild West? Right, twenty

17:01

six days old. Um,

17:03

hard to believe, but you know, we

17:05

were jumping into that and dialing

17:08

in as you know, historically, what what's

17:10

happened in the collegiate space, and we've been the exclusive

17:12

partner on the college side for six years now,

17:15

is we've never put a guy

17:17

in their uniform when they're current

17:19

college athlete. We have to wait for them to clear

17:21

for the draft, you know, go pro, and

17:24

then we fall back into dropping those guys

17:26

into their collision uniforms. So you see Trevor

17:28

Lawrence in a Clemson uniform at

17:30

this point. You know, what's happened as

17:32

of July one is this wild West.

17:35

You know, this wild West in terms of you

17:37

know, now you can get current college

17:39

athletes do something with them.

17:42

I was wanting to know about that, right, So

17:44

now is that completely because I read the

17:46

other day the quarterback for Alabama head

17:49

offers up to a million dollars of endorsemental

17:52

kind of you know, a couple of different

17:54

things of cols to a million a million dollars

17:56

for you guys, does that change the does

17:59

that is that even crazy? If? For you guys now,

18:01

it's crazier right now because there's no parameters

18:04

in place. And what we're working really hard to do

18:06

is put some parameters in place so

18:09

you know, so that there's at least some infrastructure,

18:11

especially because trading cards are probably the

18:13

most relevant, you know, to the

18:15

collegiate athlete. Right you tie the college

18:17

athlete to their school when

18:19

you can, and you put them on a card, and that

18:22

makes it super compelling. And there's only

18:24

you know two or three you

18:26

know brands that can really or products

18:29

that can really do that. Trading cards,

18:31

video games, jerseys, right like those

18:33

are the three that are the the big

18:35

three. And what happened was, you know,

18:37

when the when the n C double A said hey,

18:40

everyone, you figure it out on your own, Like

18:42

everything that you thought might have happened completely

18:45

changed. So you know, last

18:47

week we announced an exclusive

18:49

with one Team Partners to handle group

18:52

licensing UH for the college

18:54

athlete under n I L. So that

18:56

will help give us a larger infrastructure

18:58

that's more kind of in line with what you do from

19:00

a trading card perspective. So you're

19:02

not just focused on the you know, the most

19:05

marketable athletes. You're not just focused

19:07

on the Heisman watch list. You've got this

19:09

wide depth to build a really compelling

19:11

product. That's the first step. You

19:14

know, we announced that last week and then

19:17

today we just announced our partnership

19:19

with the College Licensing Company CLC

19:22

to bring out of Alabama, North

19:24

Calina something right, Yeah, they're in it. They're

19:26

in Atlanta, they're in Georgia, Georgia.

19:29

So CLC through CLC,

19:31

we just introduced co brand

19:33

opportunities within our within

19:36

our contract. So what

19:38

that means is essentially is now we can

19:41

go out to that college athlete and

19:43

put them in their in their collegiate

19:45

uniform. Naturally, we have to still

19:47

submit the product to the schools and the schools

19:49

have to approve it, but that's no different than what we have

19:52

to do already. So you

19:54

know, and that that pieces evolving.

19:56

You started where you know, before July

19:59

one, people were say sing, you won't

20:01

see co brand, it will never be co branded.

20:03

College athlete, can you know, benefit

20:06

off of their school marks. But in

20:09

the case of trading cards, it's the most relevant

20:11

because that's where it's the most compelling, right

20:14

And so you know, it's not just like a

20:16

card dealership saying like, oh, hey, I want to

20:18

use a guy in its collegiate uniform. This is like

20:20

literally we're doing it already

20:23

with guys you know, in their collegiate

20:25

uniform once they jump to the you know,

20:27

once once they jumped to the pros. The

20:29

college athlete connected to their school

20:32

marks, you know, for college

20:34

sports fans is super compelling. And

20:36

that exists for trading cards and for video

20:38

games and for you know, for you know, for

20:40

jerseys. Those are the things that are going to be the most

20:42

relevant from a licensing perspective,

20:45

and that those are the ones that make the most sense. That

20:47

needs to start to pay that way for co brand

20:50

opportunities, you know, where you

20:52

get the school I P which we already have,

20:55

and we marry that to the college athlete.

20:58

I think that honestly, I mean, I don't

21:00

know how you guys see it. What's the plans with that? To

21:02

me, it just opens up the flood gates to

21:05

more stuff you guys can do. Um,

21:07

you know, me being having a nickname like lights

21:10

Out and being in college and it being a big

21:12

deal. I can only imagine what you know,

21:14

what have what it could have happened been, um,

21:17

and you guys get involved and that, you know, and

21:19

uh and that kind of branding and stuff

21:21

like that. So Jason, Man, I appreciate

21:23

you for coming on and you've got tons of stuff to do. UM.

21:26

Thank you too for you guys and being a you

21:28

know, great partner and just great people

21:31

over there and always taking care

21:33

of it. I got probably a couple more

21:35

signs with you guys throughout the year and

21:38

just just awesome work with man and congratulations

21:41

launching all this stuff. And it's only gonna get bigger from

21:43

here. So yeah, thanks, I appreciate that.

21:45

And like I said earlier, I mean, man, we appreciate

21:47

you signing those cards. I mean those

21:49

are super important to the fans of you and

21:51

you know, to football fans overall,

21:54

So we appreciate what you do. You gotta man, appreciate

21:56

it. Thank you, Thanks Sean, Thanks

22:00

guys for listening to another lights Out podcast

22:03

for me, Shawn Merriman. UM, And that was

22:05

cool for me because, just

22:08

like a lot of people in this country, I'm trying to figure out

22:10

what the hell exactly what the hell

22:12

uh and n f T s and how it works

22:14

and how do you value it? Uh? So that was

22:17

some great insight. UM. Want to thank Jason

22:19

again for coming on uh and just spread

22:21

that information because I think that, um,

22:23

you know, this trading card industry is gonna be something

22:25

that's gonna it's big now, but gonna be even

22:28

bigger in the near future and

22:31

great stuff they're doing over there. So thanks guys.

22:33

Listening to another lights Out podcast me Seawan

22:35

Merriman. Uh. Keep leaving those great reviews,

22:38

uh, those comments. I look at all of them. And when you

22:40

guys see a video online or social

22:42

media and you like what you're here, man, toss

22:45

me a repost or retweet, and

22:47

UM, I'll make sure I get you guys retweeted

22:50

as well. So thanks again