0:02

Hello, friends,

0:05

and welcome back

0:07

to your weekly

0:10

Linux talk show.

0:11

My

0:16

name is Chris. My name is Wes. And my name is Brent.

0:18

Hello, gentlemen, coming up on the show today,

0:20

Red Hat made some news while we were

0:23

away. We thought about it for a week and we

0:25

realized we've got to address it because we think

0:28

most of the takes are wrong. So we'll give you our take

0:30

on the Red Hat situation and then we'll round out the show with

0:32

some picks and boosts and a lot more.

0:34

So before we get into all of that, let's say good morning to our

0:37

friends over at Tailscale. Tailscale

0:39

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0:52

and support the show when you go to Tailscale.com

0:55

slash unplugged. Also before we go any

0:57

further, let's say time appropriate greetings to our

0:59

virtual lug. Hello, Mumble

1:01

Room. Hello. Welcome back.

1:03

Hello. It is nice to be back. It's

1:06

nice to hear your smiling mouths, as they say.

1:08

Right. That's what Wes

1:09

always says. And I have a plea to the Mumble Room

1:11

and the chat room that's all listening live this

1:14

week. Feel

1:16

free to interrupt as we get going. Just tag

1:18

Wes in the chat room with a description of what you

1:20

want to say. And he's going to try to work you in because today's

1:23

topic is really complex and there's so many different

1:26

angles and perspectives on it that we're going to do our best

1:28

to try to address the most common things that we've

1:30

seen. But any kind of pushback we can

1:32

get from you guys, I think would give us another opportunity

1:34

to address other points we might miss. So please

1:37

feel free to tag Wes while we're going on and

1:39

get your thoughts in because

1:41

it's a big one this week. So I guess a few

1:43

things happened while we were away. Right. We

1:45

have this Red Hat news, which we're about

1:47

to get into. But Brent, you also

1:49

have some big news that we're excited to share. I

1:52

do have some news. I kind of fell

1:54

in love earlier this year and I have now

1:56

joined the NextCloud team to try to

1:58

make a difference with all of this.

1:59

things they're doing over there. How

2:02

great is that? What

2:04

a perfect naturally organic fit

2:06

and you know of course that means

2:08

we won't take your topic seriously or your

2:10

opinion seriously on the topic anymore. No we should.

2:14

No actually I think this could be a great opportunity

2:16

just for us to kind of

2:18

you know watch from a little bit closer

2:20

than normal how this project goes. It's something we all use

2:22

at the center of our workflow and. Yeah

2:25

we want it to succeed and we know you have a lot of handy

2:27

talents that might just help things along. I

2:29

think Brent's going to be good help so it's great to hear.

2:32

I will say I have found a bugger

2:34

too so hopefully I can help in those areas.

2:36

What? You? Paying

2:38

off already. Oh what a shocker. So I think that the news

2:41

of you joining the NextCloud team also

2:43

means you'll be taking a trip to Berlin again.

2:45

It does and I wanted to share

2:47

that as soon as we could so details

2:50

are still to be determined but we're

2:52

hoping to do a Jupyter Broadcasting

2:54

meetup here at the end of July

2:56

or near the end of July. So we have dates still

2:59

to kind of be sorted out. We have

3:01

a meetup posting on meetup.com so

3:03

please join that if you think you might be able to make it. Also

3:06

please join our Berlin Buds Matrix

3:09

Room. We'll have a link to both of those things in

3:11

the show notes but we're aiming around

3:14

likely Saturday July 22

3:15

maybe Sunday the

3:18

23rd something like that or maybe worst case

3:21

the following Sunday. So that'll

3:23

be the 30th. So still details

3:25

to be determined. Hopefully towards the end of

3:27

July. That's

3:29

it. And then when you know you'll lock it in at that meetup post. Yeah

3:31

I'm hoping that by next Linux

3:34

Unplugged so next Sunday we will

3:36

have all these details sorted out. But

3:38

if you're interested and you think you might be able to go please RSVP

3:41

join us and we'd love to make it happen.

3:43

Well congratulations. This is really exciting.

3:46

Well thank you. Of course you're still going to be on

3:48

the podcast. Yeah. And

3:49

hopefully maybe it means one day even Starlink

3:52

or something's in your future. So that could be great for the show

3:54

too. You know does this mean Brent should

3:56

be maintaining our

3:59

GBNeth? He's the expert. He's now

4:01

the next loud admin, I believe. I don't

4:03

think you want that to happen to us. I know. I think

4:05

it's a good idea. Also,

4:07

I have a tradition where whoever gets the new job

4:10

has to buy lunch. So that does mean

4:12

Bren knows us a lunch, too, technically. All

4:15

right, fine. Also, while we're tossing

4:17

around the congrats, we should say congrats to our buddy

4:19

Alex. And of course, somewhat myself.

4:22

Episode 100 of Self-Hosted

4:24

was posted last week.

4:25

And it's a good one.

4:26

Self-hosted.show slash 100. It's a good jumping

4:28

in point because we decided to kind of reflect on some of

4:30

our favorite,

4:32

most essential self-hosting applications.

4:34

And then we dug into something I think is going to be a topic

4:36

for us in the future, which is Proxmox 8, which

4:39

is based on Debian 12 Bookworm with, I

4:41

think it's got Linux 6.2 in there or 6.1. It's

4:43

got a more modern kernel. And they have

4:45

also updated QMU and KVM

4:47

and all those libraries like Ceph and all that stuff to go along

4:50

with it. Proxmox 8 is looking real good.

4:52

So we dug into that in Self-Hosted 100 as well. Self-hosted.show

4:55

slash 100.

4:56

We got a little note saying,

4:58

hey, we found a geocache.

5:01

So John and family left us a note, some reads.

5:04

We just wanted to reach out and say we found the last

5:06

geocache. My family and I were out trying

5:08

to get photos taken before we moved to the

5:11

East Coast and it caught our eye. We

5:13

wanted to reach out to say thanks.

5:15

Now, we don't know

5:18

which geocache this was. I mean, congratulations.

5:21

But one of us, one of

5:23

us wrote congrats on finding the last geocache.

5:26

And which is so silly in retrospect,

5:28

because how would we know what order they'd be found in? The

5:30

last one we made, I think that's what it is

5:32

on our little journey of geocache. And then there's also

5:35

something else very strange in here. I mean,

5:37

yes, we have a Coda radio

5:39

sticker, a Linux unplugged sticker,

5:42

but then there's a $2 bill and a $1 bill.

5:45

We didn't put cash in any of these. I'm pretty sure we

5:47

did not. I don't think we did. They're

5:49

really crumbled as well. Yeah. So

5:51

like, did another listener find this, resupply

5:54

the stash with some cash, you know,

5:56

to like make up for the swag they took and then then

5:59

put it back?

5:59

Which is also great.

6:01

I think the saddest part is there's

6:04

the elastic from one of

6:06

the t-shirts we left in the geocache, but

6:08

there's no t-shirt. Not the shirt. So just the

6:11

elastic says like 2XL on it and it's just sitting there. That's

6:13

what I'm thinking is the cash is for. Is like

6:15

here's a little bit of cash because I took the swag,

6:18

so now somebody else gets some value when they find

6:20

it or something. I don't know. But John and

6:22

family, congratulations. We need to do that again.

6:25

I wanted to kind of come up with like a way to like

6:27

post it all publicly and that sort of slowed it all down.

6:29

I think the idea would be if you find our caches,

6:32

throw some great stuff in there you think another listener

6:34

would enjoy. You know,

6:37

cash is great. And send us a note

6:39

with name

6:40

and where you found it. Yes, please, because we have no

6:42

idea. We don't know what we did in the past. We

6:44

forget them I think as soon as we put them on the ground. It

6:47

was so ridiculous us trying to remember where we'd stuck

6:49

them all. It's pretty funny.

6:50

I will say I think,

6:52

at least in my mind, there is a last

6:55

geocache that hasn't yet been found,

6:57

which is the geocache that I left in

6:59

Washington Pass. Chris, if you remember, I kind

7:02

of placed it and then I think a couple

7:04

weeks later the road closed

7:06

for the season. It's kind of a seasonal

7:09

mountain pass, so it was close all winter.

7:11

We didn't, I thought maybe a listener would make the trek out

7:13

there. I don't know, on a snowmobile or some snow

7:15

shoes or something. Go find it. They don't

7:17

think they care that much. No, it's clear. We got to put

7:20

something better in there. Yeah, it's too bad

7:22

they didn't know. We

7:22

just filled it with bars of gold too. I mean, you know,

7:24

oh well. Yeah, jeez, guys. Maybe

7:27

I should go out there and check on it. You know,

7:29

like a little family road trip and

7:31

see if it's out there. Do it, because I don't

7:34

know. We've had a few that might have been found

7:37

by people of the public and they just

7:39

vanished. This one I tried to hide very well

7:41

considering it was a somewhat well visited

7:43

area. But that

7:46

one, from my best knowledge, has not

7:48

been found by a JB listener yet. So there's still

7:50

one out there at least.

7:51

We'll find out. I'll have to check in on it. And

7:54

I suppose before we get into the rest of it, just before we get to the

7:56

chaos, a moment to say thank you to Drew,

7:58

our editor. He does

8:01

a fantastic job. And last week we did

8:03

something brand new.

8:04

We snuck in live boosts. And

8:07

we've never done anything like this where we pre-recorded

8:09

a show, but then left a segment to be done after

8:11

the fact. It's

8:12

kind of scary because like what if we can't all get together

8:14

and then the show just publishes. We don't have that segment.

8:17

It's just a big old hole in the show. And then of course

8:19

when we all got together we were traveling. Brent

8:21

was out in his tent hunting moose.

8:24

Wes and I had our travel mics with us. And

8:26

you know, he just did a fantastic job making it very

8:28

listenable.

8:29

So shout out to editor Drew. And

8:32

when you boost in, he's also in the splits. So he automatically gets a little cut

8:34

of that. And he earned that

8:36

split that week. That's for sure.

8:37

Okay. So let's

8:39

talk about what's happened with Red Hat.

8:42

Put in the simplest terms I

8:44

can think of.

8:45

Since we have gathered together, Red Hat

8:48

has changed the way they post the source RPMs

8:50

for Red Hat Enterprise Linux to the general public.

8:53

That's what's changed.

8:54

What has been the way it has been for a bit now

8:56

continue

8:57

is that rel development

9:00

work is being submitted upstream to

9:02

sent off streams GitHub.

9:05

What has changed is if clone makers

9:07

want to use the Red

9:10

Hat rel upstream sources to

9:12

base their clone on, i.e. if they want to have

9:14

the same source code base as rel now, my

9:17

understanding is they're

9:19

going to have to figure out

9:21

where rel was essentially snapshotted or

9:23

forked from the upstream

9:25

GitHub repository, which should be doable

9:27

through GitHub commit history.

9:30

They're

9:30

also going to be responsible now for

9:32

pulling out all of the branding and

9:35

rebranding it and which they already

9:37

had to do to some degree already. And they're going to also be more responsible,

9:39

I understand, for sweeping it for things that Red Hat

9:41

might have pulled out

9:43

preemptively.

9:45

Since the switch to sent off stream,

9:47

Red Hat hasn't used these source RPMs

9:49

themselves directly, but they've continued to publish

9:51

them so that way they'd be available to the

9:53

general public.

9:55

With this change now, the clone makers

9:57

would have to do a lot more work and

9:59

verify. in there to kind of make this

10:01

work for them.

10:03

And well, that's yet to really be determined. If that's

10:05

the route they're going to go, we'll get into that here in a moment.

10:08

But is that kind of recap, like the on

10:10

the ground change that has happened from just like a fax

10:12

standpoint? Yeah. I mean, it seemed like before, you know,

10:14

rebuilders, anyone interested in rebuilding Red

10:17

Hat Enterprise Linux was handed ready to go, you

10:19

know, our source RPM files that had kind

10:21

of a lot of this work already done already packaged

10:24

would be the code that had been used

10:26

for rel.

10:27

Whereas now, yeah, you kind of have to go figure that out

10:29

for yourself. They are branched off

10:31

Centos stream, but, you know, they're

10:33

not, there might not be a tag or an exact reference

10:36

to know where Red Hat started using

10:38

them for a particular rel release internally.

10:41

And that's where some more verification works gonna have to be

10:43

done to make sure they've gotten that

10:45

right. That's leg work they probably

10:48

don't have infrastructure for right now.

10:50

Also, maybe raises some of the questions we'll get into

10:52

about, you know, what is your intention?

10:54

Do you just want like a well maintained version

10:56

of these codes that have been integrated? Or do you want

10:58

for some reason an exact copy of a particular

11:01

point in time release? As Rocky

11:03

Linux likes to say a bug for bug compatible

11:05

version.

11:06

So this has been a real nice deal

11:08

for Alma Linux and Scientific Linux

11:11

and Rocky Linux for a long time,

11:13

because they're able to take a

11:15

really high quality commercial product rebranded.

11:18

And in the case of say Rocky

11:21

Linux, CIQ can go around and sell

11:23

support contracts for it. If we'd like Carl's

11:25

offering to elaborate a bit on the extra work that would

11:28

need to go in in this new model. I would like that,

11:30

yeah. So I would be curious to know what additional work the clone makers are gonna have

11:32

to do now.

11:32

Yeah, what's up y'all? So full

11:35

disclosure upfront in case anyone's unaware,

11:37

I work for Red Hat formerly on the Centoest

11:40

stream team. Now I work on the Apple team.

11:43

So if anyone's looking to

11:45

add homin in me and discount my opinion because

11:48

I work for Red Hat, just go ahead and fast forward because

11:50

I'm not gonna say anything that's gonna make you happy. But

11:53

the extra work that's involved, right? 100% of

11:56

the code in rel is open source

11:59

unambiguously. The exact

12:01

combination of that code delivered

12:04

on a specific timeline in a specific

12:06

combination with the accompanying

12:08

certifications and hardware software

12:10

ecosystem stuff, that's all

12:13

available to subscribers for RHEL,

12:16

like in compliance with all licenses.

12:19

But all of the code itself does go

12:21

into Cinta stream. It has to go

12:23

into Cinta stream because if it doesn't go there,

12:26

then it's a regression for RHEL customers when

12:28

the next RHEL minor version comes out.

12:30

Like if we don't put it there, then like RHEL 9.2 just

12:32

came out. If we don't put it in Cinta stream,

12:35

then when RHEL 9.3 comes out, those customers lose

12:37

that fix or that feature. Then that's just unacceptable.

12:40

Now that's not to say that things go in like the exact

12:42

same day always. I'm tracking a change

12:44

right now that's like a week or two delayed

12:47

where, and

12:48

it gets into the nuance of the difference

12:50

between backporting versus rebasing. For

12:53

the uninitiated, a backport is when you take

12:56

a commit from the upstream repo, like

12:59

say a CVE fix, and you apply

13:01

it to an older version of that software so

13:04

that way you can deliver it in a way without

13:06

also updating the software that might have incompatible

13:08

changes. That's a

13:10

very common way that software is updated in RHEL

13:12

with backports. It's also common

13:14

in Debian and other distros too.

13:16

The other way is that if you think it's possible to update

13:19

the software to

13:22

a newer version in a compatible way, you can do that. That's

13:25

usually referred to a rebase. The

13:27

Git equivalence would be rebasing versus

13:29

cherry picking if you're thinking of

13:31

it from a directly code perspective.

13:34

Every time that

13:35

something needs to change in

13:37

RHEL, Red

13:39

Hat maintainers have to think about what

13:42

is the risk versus difficulty of doing

13:44

a backport and the risk versus difficulty

13:46

of doing a rebase. Those are

13:48

complicated questions and a lot of nuance there

13:51

about how you would go about that. Sometimes

13:54

doing the backport is an obvious thing. It's maybe a few

13:56

characters, maybe a few lines.

13:59

It's not a big change and it makes perfect sense

14:02

to do a backport.

14:03

Other times doing the rebase makes a lot

14:05

more sense.

14:06

Sometimes doing the backport makes sense for rel 9.2,

14:09

but doing the rebase makes more sense for rel 9.3.

14:13

And that's what you'll see in CentOS stream is that

14:15

the code goes in there, but it might be

14:18

by say updating Python from

14:20

three nine 16 to three nine 17 instead

14:23

of doing a backport patch to three nine 16.

14:27

That is a bit of nuance there. Yeah. There's, that's

14:29

one specific, that's an exact, that's not just

14:31

a random example I'm making up. That is a specific

14:33

scenario that I'm looking at right now because

14:36

some of my friends in Alma asked me, Hey, where's

14:38

this update? That's in rel 9.2. Y'all stop this

14:40

and we can't, y'all set it's in stream and I can't find it.

14:43

And I pointed to an open merge request

14:45

that has that at the time hadn't been merged yet, but it

14:48

has been now, um, it hasn't been

14:50

published to the stream repos yet of

14:52

where Python got rebased from three

14:54

nine 16 to three nine 17

14:56

rel 9.2 for customers got a backport

14:58

patch for it

15:00

in nine three. It's going to be rebased to three

15:02

nine 17. And that little bit of nuance

15:04

is how people can correctly say

15:07

that not all of the exact sources

15:09

for rel or in sent to a stream. And also

15:11

people can correctly say that all of the source

15:13

code for rel goes into sent to a stream.

15:16

It's not a true false thing. Ah,

15:18

and that just gives you a

15:19

sense of the nuance here. Thank you, Carl.

15:22

Um, and that is going to be tricky work. And

15:24

I can see why there'll be additional verification required

15:26

to make sure they got that right. Um, and I can

15:28

see why they would be resistant to that. Yeah, it's extra work.

15:31

They don't want to do the extra work because they've

15:33

built, they built their business offerings

15:35

on doing an exact amount of work, which

15:37

is red hat doing most of the work. And that's

15:39

the point I kind of want to underscore here just for a moment.

15:41

And this part's my opinion, but it's what I've

15:43

observed is

15:45

when we got the announcement about the

15:47

transition to sent off stream,

15:49

I think there was probably a motivation

15:52

inside red hat to say, you know, we have essentially

15:54

created our own competitor here. And, uh,

15:57

some of these deals we'd like to be getting

15:59

are going to send us.

15:59

sure this is one of the bits of the calculus.

16:02

And so they thought they would solve that problem a

16:04

little bit.

16:04

And I think the messaging around the initial announcement

16:07

of Stream sort of conveyed the wrong ideas around

16:09

what system Stream is appropriate for.

16:11

And so instead of solving the problem that

16:14

they were setting out to initially with the changes to CentOS,

16:17

they kind of just created two more really valid

16:20

CentOS contenders as well as a couple of others

16:22

as well. And I'm primarily thinking of Alma and Rocky

16:24

here.

16:25

Then on top of that,

16:27

Red Hat got something they didn't

16:29

have in the previous arrangement that was

16:31

never a problem. So in the previous arrangement,

16:34

CentOS was a community project with

16:37

some famous organizational

16:39

issues and sometimes not always

16:41

the most effective product, but

16:44

it was there, it was solid, people could rely on

16:46

it. But now with

16:49

Rocky Linux,

16:50

there's a sales department. There's an aggressive sales

16:53

department that has recognized an opening in the enterprise

16:55

software market and is pursuing it with all

16:58

company focus.

17:00

The thing that they can offer is they can essentially

17:02

offer the same exact product that Red Hat

17:05

is creating with minimal

17:07

effort to create that clone and

17:09

then undersell on the support. And the beauty thing

17:12

here is you could

17:13

deploy hundreds and hundreds and hundreds of Rocky

17:15

systems,

17:17

but maybe you only want support on five of them.

17:19

And they can come in and they can offer pricing that

17:21

just

17:21

is outside of Red Hat's scale. And

17:23

so Red Hat has created in

17:26

their previous actions, a much worse

17:28

problem than they had to begin with. And

17:31

it was a pretty sweet deal for the clone makers

17:34

because the product they got to sell

17:36

is based bug for bug compatibility on

17:38

Red Hat's commercial product, which not

17:40

only has deals that require for software compatibility,

17:43

but has a ton of industry momentum and brand

17:45

respect. So talk about a great deal for them.

17:48

And that deal just changed. And that's the part

17:50

I want to get into now.

17:53

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19:16

I have to say, I think the majority of the takes

19:18

on this Red Hat situation have missed the mark a little

19:20

bit.

19:21

Some of them worse than other. I want

19:23

to start with the clone makers.

19:25

So I watched Alma and Rocky pretty

19:28

closely after the news broke.

19:30

And I've heard from folks inside

19:32

both camps. And I'm just going

19:34

to generalize what I've heard. I won't try to name specifics.

19:38

But I saw meeting notes.

19:40

And one of the sets of meeting notes I saw was from

19:42

the Rocky Linux team. You see, they made a statement

19:45

very early on, a very kind of bullish statement

19:47

about

19:48

proceeding and how things would be fine.

19:51

Internally, Rocky Linux held a meeting.

19:55

And they hold their notes on, I think it was Etherpad.

19:57

So

19:57

you can see each contributor and Greg.

20:00

was in there has a color and you can see the notes that

20:02

they've edited and all of that kind of stuff. And you

20:04

can see the whole meeting notes for the call.

20:07

And almost immediately

20:09

you saw the difference of strategy.

20:12

Rocky Linux started talking about ways of getting

20:14

their hands on the source RPMs and

20:16

then somehow getting them published on like a independent

20:19

third party website that

20:21

they wouldn't have any official connection to. And then they

20:23

and Alma Linux could just start using those

20:25

source RPMs that somehow ended up on this independent

20:28

enterprise website.

20:30

And they discussed a few other ideas, but they almost immediately

20:33

almost really the first thing they started doing

20:35

was discussing loopholes. Well where you saw Alma

20:37

Linux kind of take a more calculated approach and go,

20:40

all

20:40

right, well let's investigate trying to

20:42

base it off the GitHub. Let's investigate

20:45

our possible options here while

20:47

trying to remain

20:48

somewhat positive to their community.

20:51

And I told you guys a

20:54

couple of years ago when all of this started when

20:56

we really first learned about the stream transition and we heard

20:58

about Rocky and Alma, I said on this podcast,

21:00

there

21:01

will come a day.

21:03

It'll be down the road where something happens

21:07

and a decision has to be made

21:09

and you're going to see the values of these two communities

21:11

get reflected and the decisions

21:14

they make

21:14

are going to be critical.

21:17

And what I am seeing right now is Rocky

21:20

has come out with a statement that says they're

21:22

essentially going

21:24

to try a loophole of signing up on a cloud

21:26

provider, a VPS, getting access to

21:29

the source RPMs through that cloud provider and then

21:31

republishing those source RPMs and using it to base

21:33

Rocky Linux off of.

21:35

And people are all on board with this.

21:38

As if this isn't the biggest sketchy loophole

21:41

and this is supposed to be an enterprise grade

21:43

product that you're running in a business for

21:45

critical infrastructure and you're relying

21:47

on this ridiculously obviously dumb

21:50

loophole.

21:51

And as a project, this is what they're representing publicly

21:54

and their stands are clapping that along.

21:56

What universe do you

21:58

people live in? Do any of you who.

23:59

worked for Red Hat and Red Hat has said it publicly.

24:02

They have said, quote, we don't see the value

24:04

from the clones. They've said that and

24:07

it makes a lot of sense. Why would they?

24:09

They have a commercial product they're selling and

24:11

the outrage farming going around

24:13

saying that Red Hat has abandoned open source and

24:15

that stabbed the open source community in the back

24:18

is absolutely ludicrous.

24:20

Red Hat employs more people developing software

24:22

in Linux than just about any company I could name. It's

24:24

an incredible amount of software that gets created

24:27

and a good deal of it doesn't even really benefit

24:29

the enterprise product. It benefits idiots like us to

24:31

love pipewire.

24:33

To say they're abandoning open source

24:36

is so narrow minded, it's

24:39

absurd. And if you

24:41

think about it from a different context, if you just,

24:43

in my opinion, think about it.

24:46

If Red Hat had always done it this way,

24:49

if CentOS Stream from the very beginning

24:51

was always upstream, it

24:54

wouldn't be a big deal. This would be a natural

24:56

way to ship a commercial distro.

24:59

You would have the upstreams,

25:01

open source GPL software,

25:03

and then you would have the company making the commercial product.

25:05

Yeah, I can't help but think that a lot of this has made it a little

25:07

more difficult to analyze or think clearly

25:10

about just because we have had that history. I think

25:12

maybe to a lot of folks on the outside,

25:14

maybe internalizing just how different

25:16

the world with Stream is, can be a little

25:18

tricky. But you're right.

25:20

If you were starting this up now, that's probably

25:23

the way you do it. Carl, you've got some thoughts on

25:25

Red Hat, abandoning open source.

25:28

Yes, sir. Yeah. The abandoning thing, obviously,

25:30

like y'all pointed out, it's crap.

25:33

It's also not true false. It's not a black

25:36

and white thing. It's gray. We

25:38

always talk about how, why is

25:41

there only one Red Hat? Why is only one

25:43

company, this wildly successful, productizing

25:46

open source? We see all these other

25:49

attempts at much

25:51

more questionable approaches, like being

25:54

Apache licensed for a couple of years,

25:56

getting popular, and then switching to

25:58

like SSP.

25:59

service side public license where it's

26:02

not open source because there's specific restrictions

26:05

that preclude places like Amazon

26:07

from using that source code and

26:10

not like a one to one thing. It's totally different.

26:12

It's a different scenario,

26:14

but just from using the source code at all.

26:16

So you see other ways to go about that.

26:18

And, you know, I'm not necessarily, I don't

26:20

disagree with that or I disagree with that approach,

26:23

but I'm not necessarily trying to criticize that approach

26:25

here. What I'm pointing out is that making

26:28

money off of open source software is hard.

26:30

Tons of companies have started and gone

26:33

out of business because of it. Red

26:35

Hat almost went out of business because of it. Right.

26:37

Like back in the days in

26:39

Red Hat, Linux, whenever the model

26:42

there was we're going to build a distro, the

26:44

internet's so slow that people will pay

26:46

us to

26:46

buy box sets of it. And also they

26:48

can optionally pay us to call us for

26:50

phone support. That model, which

26:53

is the model that tons of people are

26:55

screaming at us that, well, I just want the

26:57

rail bits. I don't need support.

27:00

They're, we've tried that model.

27:02

It nearly bankrupted the damn company.

27:04

That was the original model. Right. There's

27:06

an ours, an ours. Technica article I read recently

27:08

that went into details about it that

27:11

talked about how like Red Hat bet the farm

27:13

on moving the company's focus to rail.

27:16

They basically rebranded Red Hat

27:18

Linux to fedora core, moved it out in

27:20

the public space, made it better fedora

27:22

has been gone on to be in the longterm,

27:24

wildly successful after short term blowback

27:27

and arguments. Yeah. Now there's a,

27:29

there's an article out there. I'll find it. And it's talking about

27:31

how Red Hat killed their core product

27:34

and went on to be successful. And it was about turn

27:36

basically shutting down Red Hat Linux, which wasn't

27:39

really, it didn't really go away. It got rebranded

27:41

to fedora core and opened up and became

27:43

a real community rather than a throw it over

27:45

the wall open source thing. Basically

27:47

my summary is that opens making money off open source

27:50

is hard. Red Hat has always tried

27:52

to walk that line. They almost

27:54

went bankrupt doing it with Red Hat Linux switched

27:56

to the rail model. But because

27:59

of because of their, the open source principles still

28:01

publish the source RPMs, the source code,

28:04

in the throw it over the wall model that Red Hat

28:06

Linux used to have and Rell has always had. And

28:09

that throw it over the wall model was what

28:12

allowed things like CentOS to exist in the first

28:14

place and later on Alma and Rocky and Oracle.

28:17

And it's always going to be walking the line. There's

28:19

going to be people that disagree with where

28:21

Red Hat draws the line. There's a ton of people

28:23

that think that Red Hat should just be completely happy

28:26

making the bits no matter what the

28:28

engineering cost

28:29

and selling optional support if people

28:32

feel like it. Yeah. But we've proven

28:34

that that model doesn't work. The

28:37

reality is that

28:39

as you look at Red Hat's attempt to

28:41

kind of address the whole CentOS

28:43

as a competitor, if you want to put it that way,

28:45

they've, they're trying to solve a problem in that

28:48

if you really have a critical production

28:51

application that you need to run on Red Hat, you

28:53

probably should be paying for it.

28:55

And that's the, that is honestly the truth.

28:58

And I have to agree with that position where

29:00

I am a bit empathetic is like an

29:02

education

29:03

where maybe you can't afford a whole bunch of licenses,

29:06

but so that way the training is consistent and

29:08

the skill set's consistent, you want to keep it

29:10

real compatible.

29:11

Yeah, definitely. There's definitely places where they're not

29:13

making money from it that, you know, they want

29:16

that kind of stability. They want what Rell offers.

29:18

And to be fair, there are

29:20

programs, those programs need improvement

29:22

and need to be more accessible. But

29:24

there's programs for academia. There's programs

29:27

for research institutions. There's

29:29

programs for individuals to get free rail. The

29:31

developer program. Another common thing I hear is that

29:33

people say, well, I only want to pay for Red Hat

29:36

support for my production stuff, but I'll

29:38

use a rail clone in dev and prod. Red

29:41

Hat literally has

29:41

a program for that. It gives you like

29:44

several thousand free rail instances in

29:46

your non-prod stuff. If you're paying

29:49

for it in production, like this isn't just

29:51

like, oh, oh, damn Red Hat, they're terrible.

29:53

Like it's people. And we're actively

29:55

trying to make things that meet these criticisms

29:58

and it's not going to be perfect the first time.

29:59

around. It's going to be an ongoing improvement

30:02

thing. And I mean, no promises,

30:04

but I would not be surprised at all if some

30:06

of the results of this is that the 16 free

30:09

instances for individuals goes higher. Like

30:11

that's an entirely plausible outcome from this. You

30:13

know, our buddy Noah did a great interview in the

30:16

Ask Noah show, Ask Noah 343. He interviewed Mike

30:18

McGrath, who's been really on the public front lines

30:21

with these changes. And I thought it was a really informative

30:23

interview. And one of the things that

30:25

he makes clear in there is Red Hat's perspective

30:28

on this is that rel is a product

30:30

and sento stream

30:33

is a project.

30:35

And so if you think about it, if

30:37

you think of that's their core alignment with the way this

30:39

is, the way they see this,

30:41

these changes fall in line with that. It makes sense.

30:43

And, you know, Red Hat indicated,

30:46

although Mike wouldn't be specific,

30:48

that they saw some bad faith actors.

30:51

You know, I have to note, and I specifically

30:54

to in the interview, the comment,

30:56

you know, not necessarily bad faith in the technical sense, but

30:58

bad faith in the in the money making side

31:01

of things. Yeah. And kind of some of the claims

31:03

and some I also, and I have no

31:05

information here about this, but

31:07

I noticed that I

31:09

thought, I don't know, 10 days or so, maybe

31:11

it was less than that five days before all this blew up.

31:15

Rocky and NASA announced that NASA

31:17

had secured a contract with Rocky Enterprise Linux. I

31:19

don't know if it was very many systems,

31:21

but probably an example of an outfit that could

31:23

probably either through one of the programs

31:25

or directly

31:27

just by rail, you know,

31:28

this queen example of maybe a customer

31:30

base that was pre previously on traditional

31:33

sentos. And Rocky comes

31:35

in and says, Hey, you can move those over to Rocky.

31:37

And if you need to support, you can get it. And

31:39

that's, that's a contract that could have gone

31:41

to Red Hat.

31:43

And it's not like Rocky's turning around

31:45

and submitting 20 to 30% of the

31:47

fixes

31:48

upstream. And so they're contributing so

31:50

much value upstream that they're totally justified

31:52

in this rebuild. And that same interview Mike kind of talks

31:55

about, you know, if you want to build a build your own

31:57

product based on stream, We

32:01

can do that if you're offering something that's unique. I think

32:03

that's kind of where the question comes in. Is your value,

32:05

look, Red Hat does all this great work to keep this super

32:07

stable and you can get it

32:09

this other way and we'll help you with it? Or is it

32:11

we help make that turn this

32:13

upstream project into

32:15

a stable OS and you should trust us? The other way to say that

32:18

is,

32:19

if the clone makers were to provide

32:22

and participate directly upstream,

32:24

they could catch some of the same bugs. They could catch

32:26

those bugs and they could submit them

32:29

to have the Red Hat developers fix them. And

32:32

if they don't do that, they're gonna eventually get those bugs

32:35

anyways when they do ship in RHEL. So

32:37

it may actually be better for them to participate

32:40

sooner in the process and catch that

32:42

stuff before it ships to anybody's customers. So

32:44

there could be an opportunity to make the space better

32:46

in that regard.

32:47

I think people are angry because a

32:50

great thing,

32:51

a really nice thing got taken away.

32:54

But I have a personal outlook on this.

32:57

And that is that the economics of the tech industry

33:00

have changed. I mean, we've all heard about the layoffs,

33:03

the rate hike increases, VC

33:06

funding

33:07

drying up.

33:08

It creates a different environment.

33:11

It creates an environment where they have to find

33:13

value, they have to make money. And some of the things they could do

33:15

for free

33:16

when money was cheap and easy,

33:18

they can't necessarily continue to do.

33:20

And I think if you can draw a line through

33:22

something we're seeing right now with the API changes

33:25

at Reddit,

33:26

with the Twitter changes right now, with the throttling.

33:28

And even with this

33:30

change in the RHEL source code

33:31

distribution,

33:33

the through line you can draw there is the economics

33:36

of running the tech industry have changed. And some of the really

33:38

nice goodies that we've been getting for the last 13 years, because

33:41

the cost of money has been below the inflation

33:43

rate,

33:44

are probably going away.

33:45

Because these tech companies basically could have unlimited

33:48

money to do this stuff. They could hire people like crazy.

33:51

And now they're laying off or they're freezing, right?

33:53

They're having to focus on things that make money.

33:56

That has a ripple effect, in my opinion. And

33:58

these are some of the ripple effects you see.

33:59

as a result.

34:02

Carl, you've got some comments here. We've definitely been talking

34:04

a bit loosely about the

34:06

actual organizations building these rebuilds

34:08

and then the organizations selling support

34:10

for them. So

34:11

maybe you should be a little more clear about that.

34:14

Yeah, of course. What I would

34:16

like people to think about is that this

34:19

is again, another area that is just soaking

34:21

in nuance and is hard to like

34:23

just making an absolute statement about.

34:27

But as far as objective facts, both Rocky

34:29

and Alma were started by CEOs

34:31

of companies, CIQ and

34:34

Cloud Linux respectively, that

34:37

had business plans based on a rail rebuild

34:39

existing. And those business plans essentially

34:41

boiled down to doing something

34:44

with that rail rebuild and

34:47

not having to pay for the

34:49

vast majority of the engineering effort to

34:51

create the operating system, but doing something

34:54

adjacent to or on top of that operating

34:56

system and being profitable

34:59

because they're not having to foot the bill for most of the

35:01

engineering work. If

35:03

it was just about the code, they could take that

35:05

code from Fedora, from Upstream

35:08

projects, from, you know, from Centoestream,

35:11

they could do those things. But it's not about

35:13

the code. What it is is that their

35:15

business propositions hinge on

35:18

rail compatibility. Red Hat has

35:20

spent literal decades building

35:22

a hardware and software ecosystem and

35:25

certifications around the

35:27

exact bits and the exact combination and the exact

35:30

lifecycle

35:31

of rail. And these businesses

35:33

are fundamentally designed to take advantage

35:35

of that.

35:37

Those businesses went on to do various things.

35:39

They like to talk about how they're separate entities

35:42

and that's somewhat true or false

35:44

or whatever. It's another gray

35:47

area, right? What I can say is specifically

35:49

that the Alma Linux founder, the

35:51

CEO of Cloudlands, Igor, I forget his last name, he

35:54

said he was going to make a nonprofit and then he actually

35:57

made a nonprofit, a 501c6.

35:59

props for him to do in that. They gave over all the

36:02

trademarks,

36:03

but

36:04

the core engineers building all the Linux,

36:07

as far as I'm aware, are still 100% Cloud

36:11

Linux employees that work for Igor. It

36:13

is completely sustained by that and

36:15

because of their business interest and

36:18

somewhat similar, but different thing on the Rocky

36:21

side. Originally, Greg, the founder

36:23

of Rocky said that he was going to make a nonprofit.

36:26

He reneged on that promise and made

36:28

a B Corp instead that he completely owns.

36:31

It's even in their FAQ that they

36:34

talk about how their B Corp bylaws of their

36:36

foundation, quote unquote foundation are

36:38

binding.

36:39

But in their FAQ, they point out

36:41

that Greg actually isn't legally bound

36:43

by those bylaws in any way,

36:45

shape, or form. He can delete those bylaws and

36:48

delete the board and do whatever he wants to. And

36:50

the vast majority of the employees working on

36:52

Rocky Linux are CIQ employees

36:55

that work for Greg so he can make any decision,

36:57

dictate it to his employees to do. And

36:59

the dependent on how he wants to characterize it,

37:02

he can say that this was a CIQ move or this

37:04

was a Rocky Linux, Rocky

37:06

enterprise software foundation move. And Chris has

37:08

seen that before with the stuff on

37:09

Twitter with the advertising where you pointed out there,

37:11

open Suess ads and other stuff like that. Yeah,

37:15

I'm a little disappointed to see the tacky strikes

37:18

from Suess on this. I'd

37:20

like to dig into how their

37:22

licensing works too and the way they release their source

37:24

RPMs.

37:25

Well, I want to steal Greg's argument

37:27

just for a moment. So I think what Greg

37:29

would, or I don't want to, maybe just generally, I think

37:32

the makers of the enterprise Linux clones,

37:34

let's say, not to make it about any one person, but I

37:36

think their argument could be, well,

37:38

isn't that what Red Hat's doing with open source? They're

37:41

taking the Linux kernel, they're taking the GNU user

37:43

land, they're taking all these things that these other giants

37:45

have built and they're selling their commercial product

37:47

on top of that.

37:48

And what the clone makers are doing is

37:50

essentially just the next stage of that.

37:53

The shoulders they're standing on is Red Hat, but of course, Red

37:55

Hat's standing on all the other individual contributors

37:57

that make up the platform they're shipping.

37:59

And so their argument is we're justified

38:02

in doing this because we're really just doing

38:04

what red hat does. We're just doing it at a different scale.

38:06

Yeah, they're wrong though.

38:09

Yeah, I want to, yeah, yeah. I'd like to hear your response

38:11

to that because I've seen that argued quite a bit. Again,

38:13

personal opinion. Um, so

38:16

it requires a specific understanding

38:18

of what I mentioned before about skirting the

38:21

line between making money off of open

38:23

source, right? What lives in the open

38:25

source spirit of open source, open code

38:28

space, the project space,

38:30

if you will, and what lives in the product

38:32

space, red hat Linux

38:35

was, it was a product and it was a throat

38:37

over the wall open source. Like a lot of the criticisms,

38:39

we always lodge it Android, Google builds it, and then

38:42

they throw the source, some of the source code

38:44

over the wall. And then they say it's open source, right?

38:46

It's not really a collaborative thing. That's

38:48

what red hat Linux was in its early days.

38:51

It was built internally at red hat private thrown

38:54

over the wall to say, yep, we're honoring all

38:56

the open source licenses is the easiest way to, to

38:58

prove that we're honoring all the open source licenses.

39:01

No, you can't really collaborate with it and help us build

39:03

it,

39:03

but it's open source. You can see the source code and

39:06

you can file bugs. Yay. So

39:08

they started with that with, with red hat Linux.

39:10

Same thing with red hat enterprise Linux, same

39:12

model, throw the source code, the source RPMs

39:15

over the wall and build whatever you want

39:17

to with it. But

39:17

that conflated and kind of smudge

39:20

the lines between the, the project

39:22

space and the product space. The,

39:25

the red hat Linux to fedora core, uh,

39:28

transition, that was a course

39:30

correction on that of moving

39:33

something that was in the product space fully

39:35

into the project space so

39:37

that it can be a real community project and that

39:39

real community members can contribute to it and

39:42

do things with it. I saw something recently

39:44

from, uh, from Matthew Miller, the

39:47

fedora project leader, where he did some measurements

39:49

around contributions to fedora and

39:51

like over a specific set of fedora releases just

39:53

to limit the dataset and something

39:56

like only, I think it was like 40% of the contributions

39:58

were from red hat employees. and the rest were real,

40:01

genuine community contributions that had nothing

40:03

to do with Red Hat and didn't even go into RHEL. So

40:06

that was a course correction there. CentOS Stream

40:08

is a bit of a course correction as well, where

40:11

CentOS previously was

40:13

built on the same model of where we're going

40:15

to take the open source result

40:18

of the product space and build something for

40:20

the community space again and try and take it back to the

40:22

community space. And it wasn't

40:24

collaborative. There was no way to fix bugs

40:27

or do pull requests. The entire

40:29

premise of a bug for bug clone is

40:32

unique to stealing Red Hat's business value.

40:34

Like it's not about the code itself, because

40:36

if it was, people could build other things off CentOS

40:39

Stream. It's all about leveraging that

40:41

ecosystem that Red Hat has built, those certifications,

40:44

because we saw for years where people said, well,

40:46

RHEL is certified for

40:49

this FIPS compliance or whatever else. So we're

40:51

going to run the equivalent CentOS version and check

40:53

the box for FIPS compliance. It's not

40:55

about the code. It's about the compliance and everything

40:57

around the code.

40:59

Now in compliance, the other argument I've

41:01

seen online is that, well, what they're

41:03

doing now with Red Hat is essentially if

41:06

it's not a direct violation of the GPL, it's

41:08

a violation of the spirit. So therefore

41:10

what we're going to do is we're going to keep open source

41:12

open. But

41:15

this is kind of a silly argument. In

41:17

fact, I think Bradley Kuhn of

41:19

the Software Conservancy has reviewed

41:21

this multiple times and like 11

41:24

years worth of multiple times. And

41:26

to his frustration, what he sees

41:28

Red Hat doing is legal. And he just recently wrote

41:30

about that again.

41:31

He's very critical of the model, but

41:34

it seems to hold up. You are agreeing to that

41:36

EULA

41:37

and the source code is made available to customers still.

41:39

And we'll put a link to that in the notes. We're kind of playing

41:41

right in the space of what's allowed, what's

41:44

legal and what you actually do. And I think,

41:46

as the clone makers kept playing and what

41:48

they were allowed to do, now Red Hat is also kind of playing

41:50

in that space in this item. Well, we

41:52

don't actually have to make it easier for you.

41:54

Yeah, his previous posts were much less critical, but

41:57

also came to the same ultimate conclusion

41:59

that this is the case.

41:59

This is all GPL compliant. Right.

42:03

It is. And I think

42:05

we're going to have to wait and see how the

42:07

end result sort of shakes out for the clone makers.

42:10

I think, you know,

42:11

Rocky has their path. They're going to try. We'll

42:13

see what Alma does there. Yeah. The task

42:15

in our matrix chat kind of wonders, Red Hat gives

42:17

back at least in the forms of things like SELinux,

42:19

you know, a system D, pipe wire you were talking

42:22

about. What do we see given back improved

42:25

in the general open source community from the clone

42:27

makers? And I can't speak to that directly, but yeah.

42:29

Perhaps that's something we'll see more of in this new era.

42:32

Yeah. I mean, I feel like there has been something, so I don't want to

42:34

completely count them out. But I want to address

42:36

one other common thing that I saw and

42:40

Mike addressed this in his interview directly with Noah.

42:43

And I thought it was worth repeating here is that

42:46

according

42:46

to Mike McGrath, Red Hat staff

42:48

has not had a single IBM staffer

42:51

discuss this issue with them. Not before

42:53

and not after.

42:54

So this, I believe, just like the initial

42:57

CentOS changes to stream,

42:59

this is an internal change.

43:01

And anybody who's worked in a large company with

43:03

a sales department that has their,

43:06

the numbers, you know, that they have to hit,

43:08

these discussions happen. And

43:11

I think

43:12

where the blame does lie

43:15

is once again, I

43:17

could think of a hundred ways to do this better.

43:19

The messaging sort of blew. Again,

43:21

they blew it. And Red Hat's kind of just this is, this

43:24

is kind of what you get. In fact,

43:26

I have been led to believe by some other conversations

43:28

and Mike's interview on the Ask Noah program

43:31

that

43:32

Red Hat didn't even really consider making a public post about

43:34

this.

43:35

They drafted up the blog

43:37

post,

43:38

then posted after people noticed from the Alma project,

43:41

they weren't really expecting this reaction.

43:43

Yeah, I knew about this about a week ahead of time.

43:46

Not that they asked me if they should do it. They just told me,

43:48

by the way, heads up, you're out in these

43:50

community spaces. You should know this is coming. And

43:53

the original, the original thing they told me was this,

43:55

we're not going to announce this. We're just

43:58

going to turn this automate this, this all by the way, this. old

44:00

janky automation that is costing us engineer

44:03

time and money to keep running that

44:05

we need to fix or turn off. They

44:07

told me that they were going to turn that off and there wasn't going to be any

44:09

message. So I woke up on June 21st

44:12

to that initial blog post. Very surprised.

44:15

I bet. Geez. Yeah. And that's

44:17

a bit of interesting insight too. I hadn't really thought about

44:19

the fact that it's about a lot of infrastructure to

44:21

do this and it has to become a project to maintain

44:23

it. And at that point, that value discussion comes up. I

44:25

can see day job West being like, this is really annoying.

44:27

I, you know, we have, we have limited people. We have a lot of

44:29

stuff to work on. Can we just ask those?

44:32

Yeah. Tons of people like think that like

44:34

this was purely just a, you know, a shot across

44:36

the bow, trying to come after the clones. And

44:38

like, it's not not that,

44:40

but also there's the factor of, you

44:43

know, it, I mean, if people actually read

44:45

Mike's Mike McGrath's post with an open mind, they'll

44:48

see where he talks about redhead

44:50

is putting time and money into the things

44:53

that

44:54

we're not getting value out of the source

44:56

code export, the debranding. We were

44:58

doing that and we needed it

45:00

for Sinto S Sinto S classic. I

45:03

hate calling it Sinto S Linux cause that implies

45:05

that stream isn't Linux and it isn't God, I

45:07

hate the name. And that's a whole nother mess, but we

45:09

were putting in that work for classic Sinto

45:11

S we're still doing it for seven because

45:13

there's no stream and that's just going to keep

45:15

going until it's end of life.

45:17

And you know, we're putting in that, but

45:19

none of our customers are using that directly. None

45:22

of our partners are using that directly. None

45:24

of the people collab actually collaborating

45:26

with us are doing that or using

45:28

that code directly. So it's

45:31

not justified. It's not a net positive value

45:33

for us to keep working on that.

45:35

And we were delivering the code in three, three

45:37

places, right? The customer portal Sinto

45:39

a stream and in this exact one

45:41

for one export location. So we just

45:43

said, you know,

45:45

we don't need to do it in three places. We're only going to

45:47

do it in two places. We have so many

45:49

links in the show notes. And if you missed

45:51

any of the nuance, we covered just the facts,

45:53

ma'am in Linux action news this week.

45:55

So you could head on over there

45:57

and check out the most recent Linux action news, which was

45:59

two.

46:01

298 and get kind of the snapshot of

46:03

the facts on the ground But we'll have a ton

46:05

of reference links in the show notes to it

46:07

Linux unplugged comm slash 5 17

46:11

Carl I appreciate your insights on this to as somebody who's

46:13

boots on the ground with this of course I

46:15

think our

46:16

job now going forward is to kind of watch

46:19

how the response continues how the clone makers adapt

46:21

What pants work what pets don't do you approach has

46:23

changed? Do we see different involvement? Does

46:25

red hat make a compromise or two on those programs?

46:28

I mean there are a lot of low-cost programs already you make

46:30

a couple of more changes to that and

46:32

You almost get it all and then you basically have a

46:35

sales funnel too so I could see them making

46:37

that compromise You

46:38

know I'll be curious to see the last time red hat made

46:40

such a big change with sent to us stream

46:42

We got a few new businesses pop up and

46:44

a few new kind of opportunities.

46:47

I'm curious to see what will happen from this

46:52

Collide comm slash land

46:55

yeah, that's right collide is joining the unplugged

46:57

program And we're thrilled to have them here because

46:59

I think they have some solutions for many of our listeners

47:02

out there They're coming over from the Linux action news program

47:04

They've been there for a little bit and I'd like to introduce

47:06

you to collide go say hi But going

47:08

to collide comm slash LAN I imagine

47:10

we'll have a new URL soon But you can jump

47:12

on board right there, and if you're an octa

47:14

user

47:16

Collides got something to get your entire fleet 100% compliant.

47:18

I mean it how well It's

47:21

simple if a device isn't compliant the

47:23

user can't log into your cloud apps until they

47:25

fix the problem

47:26

You see collide patches one of those major holes

47:29

in the whole zero trust architecture

47:31

device compliance so without collide

47:34

I've been there many of you been there

47:36

It struggles to solve basic problems like keeping

47:38

everyone's OS and browsers up to date That's where your

47:40

focus goes unsecured devices are logging

47:42

into your company's applications because well

47:45

There's

47:45

nothing to stop them

47:46

Collides the only device trust solution that enforces

47:48

compliance as part of authentication

47:51

And it's built seamlessly to work with octa

47:53

the moment collides agent detects a problem it

47:55

alerts the user and gives them instructions how to fix It

47:58

if they don't fix the problem within a set time

47:59

Well then they get blocked.

48:02

Collide's method means fewer support tickets,

48:04

less frustration, and well, most

48:07

importantly,

48:08

100% fleet compliance.

48:10

You can reduce IT burden and make it

48:12

simple and straightforward for your users. It's a fantastic

48:14

experience. Go

48:16

to collide.com slash LAN

48:18

to learn more or you can book a demo.

48:21

That's K-O-L-I-D-E dot com

48:23

slash LAN and a big thank you and

48:25

a big welcome to Collide to the Unplugged program.

48:32

We've been getting great feedback from folks

48:34

since we've been gone. Thank you for that. If you want to leave

48:36

us some feedback, Linuxunplugged.com

48:38

slash contact for that. Luke

48:41

from Anacortes got in touch with me and

48:43

gave me some great feedback about our episode, Linux

48:46

Unplugged 515 Ham Sandwich. That's

48:49

where we had our buddy Noah on talking

48:51

about the ham radio. Luke says,

48:54

hey, I got my SDR tuner working and

48:56

just caught my very first ham

48:58

broadcast at 146.94 megahertz.

49:03

But there's a bunch of Canadians doing Canada

49:05

Day trivia. So Brent, happy

49:07

Canada Day.

49:10

It sounds like Luke also just passed his

49:12

technician's exam and he's waiting for the FCC

49:14

email so he can finish

49:17

paying up and get his call sign. Oh, congratulations,

49:19

Luke. Let us know what it is when you

49:21

get it. Anybody else out there too,

49:24

keep us posted. Brian

49:25

S. sent us a server

49:28

while we were gone. How

49:30

great is this? The day I got back an

49:33

HP desktop tower server. That's

49:35

convenient. It is nice because it has

49:37

the Lilo management stuff in there so I

49:39

could do the install from my desk. And

49:42

it arrived just in time for a self-hosted 100, so I was

49:44

able to use it for a project already.

49:46

And of course, I put Debian on there because I'm putting

49:48

Proxmox on there. So I put Debian 12 on

49:50

there first and then installed Proxmox. And it's a

49:52

slick

49:53

little box. I think we popped some more RAM

49:55

in there and he sent some more drives and stuff. He also

49:58

included a couple of video games. cards

50:00

and the he and it like an Nvidia

50:03

like 10 series and then an

50:05

AMD seven series, I think

50:07

that I looked up and has compatibility

50:10

for Proxmox GPU pass through. Excellent.

50:13

So that's going to work out. Great. So thank you, Brian. We

50:16

really kind of spoiled. Sometimes we get people to send us some great

50:18

gear. If you ever do want to send us some gear,

50:20

too, I just want to mention you can contact me

50:22

on matrix or email or something, but include a

50:24

note

50:25

in there with your name because sometimes stuff shows

50:27

up at the same time. I know horrible

50:29

problem to have. And we just want to make sure we give

50:31

credit to the right people. We've

50:32

got a great piece of feedback for Linux unplugged 5

50:35

16 as well from some guy

50:38

says, Hey, folks, long

50:40

time lurker first time contactor.

50:43

There's so much in one episode in 5

50:46

16. That's the episode. If you boys remember where we

50:48

each brought our own topic, he

50:50

says, I can't agree with Brent dark night diaries

50:52

is great. Podcast I've caught up to

50:54

their newest episode and re listened to an oldie

50:57

about once a week. Highly recommended.

51:00

Also, sorry for the bad news, but our

51:02

government, the US I think here has

51:05

been spying on us for decades. Enemy

51:07

of the state is the first movie I saw

51:09

as a kid that showed this concept that

51:12

Snowden later confirmed the

51:14

Patriot Act. One was the first widespread

51:17

where the government we need to keep track

51:19

of you bill that passed in the US. Most

51:21

Americans, in my opinion, use the saying,

51:24

I have nothing to hide. While that

51:26

is true, I can agree with Chris generally

51:29

here that doesn't matter because

51:31

privacy is generally

51:32

a human right. When my

51:34

friends or coworkers call me the crazy

51:37

guy because I'm a stickler on privacy, I asked

51:39

them for their email name,

51:42

username and password. And to

51:45

let me have access so I can read all their emails and

51:47

they generally say, Oh, no, no, no, I can't do that.

51:50

But yet you're okay with Google doing it.

51:53

Yeah, let me just go through all your photos real quick. Yeah.

51:55

What about when you go to the bathroom and he closes the door,

51:57

right? Some Taco Bell embarrassment.

51:59

there, surely. And what about people

52:02

who have, you know, adult relations? You don't

52:04

want that just out in the open. So you do have private

52:07

stuff going on. They never like that

52:09

argument, though, because it makes them think and

52:11

people generally don't want to think about the hard things. Also,

52:14

Chris, great choice on Mike's book.

52:16

I've just gotten an updated version of extreme

52:19

privacy and OSINT techniques.

52:22

Both are truly horrifying, but worth

52:24

the info. Even if you're a techie

52:26

or a normie, it's a great refresher and

52:28

eye opener. He also has

52:29

PDF versions and mobile

52:32

device versions.

52:33

You remember the name of the book, Brent? I know we mentioned it,

52:35

but I've already forgotten it. But it's like how extreme privacy,

52:37

I believe. And there's also like how to disappear.

52:39

Oh, oh, yeah, right. There's

52:42

a bunch of good ones in this space. You know, there's

52:44

there's legislation brewing, not not

52:46

quite as

52:47

as awful in the States, but

52:50

across the pond, there's also some laws

52:52

brewing that are

52:54

really going to break encryption. And I

52:56

do feel like that's going to be a hard line for

52:59

me is sort of that's where I'm going to draw the line.

53:01

And

53:02

I wonder if there could be a point in the future where

53:04

people who are advocates for privacy

53:07

aren't considered extreme. I mean, I hate to say that,

53:10

but

53:10

those views do shift over time. And

53:12

if

53:13

a particular, God forbid, awful event

53:15

were to happen and the terrorists that orchestrated

53:18

the event were, say, using some encrypted

53:20

chat, I think laws would change pretty quick.

53:22

And that's

53:23

all it really takes is some sort of moment like that.

53:25

And so

53:26

even more props then for being the weirdo

53:28

privacy advocate in your group, keeping the discussion

53:30

going, keeping these normalized as much as you can

53:32

now. Right. So that way it doesn't look so weird

53:35

later on, is my thinking. And I

53:37

do think human human rights, privacy

53:39

is a human right. So

53:41

thank you, everybody, who wrote in at Linux unplugged.com

53:43

slash contact. I jumped in there

53:45

a couple of times during the vacay

53:48

and just saw some really nice emails and I saw

53:50

some good recommendations for

53:52

cheap Vigicards and I went looked them up on

53:54

eBay and I think I'm going to pull the trigger soon. So appreciate

53:56

that.

54:00

time for the boost and some

54:02

boosts we did in fact we got 200 200,000 sets

54:04

I should

54:06

say from Eric D

54:12

he was using cast-o-matic and I think

54:14

this episode really touched him he sent us a really long

54:16

boost I'm gonna read parts of it but we've we've all read

54:18

it already as well he just he wanted to thank

54:21

us and Noah for the episode on ham

54:24

he has a family friend who's a ham and

54:26

it's it really touched him too because

54:30

as he's moved around he was able to stay in touch

54:32

with family and friends and some of those

54:34

people have passed away as time has gone on

54:37

and he hadn't

54:38

really given it much thought until this episode and

54:40

he said Noah's explanation of fundamentals of amateur

54:42

radio

54:43

and his passion for the hobby brought back so many of those

54:45

memories

54:46

it got him thinking about it again he

54:48

wanted to do some reading see what was involved to

54:50

get his license and the more research he does he

54:52

says he's starting to make more sense to him he's made up his

54:54

mind he's gonna take the course later this year and get his license

54:57

that's pretty great says thanks you guys for helping me relive some

54:59

great childhood memories and

55:01

remembering an old friend Wow

55:04

thank you very much he's also gonna email in

55:06

some more deeps too so

55:08

really appreciate that and that you know you just

55:10

never know when you're making these

55:12

right you never know which episodes gonna resonate with folks

55:14

honestly I thought the ham radio stuff was pretty risky to

55:16

do

55:17

but I'm glad that for the people that enjoyed it it

55:19

worked sir Alex Gates

55:22

the podcasting 2.0 consulting comes in

55:24

with a hundred and one thousand forty-five

55:26

sats I hoard that with your kind

55:29

covered while across a whopping ten

55:31

boots no less okay

55:34

yeah take some of these Wes this

55:36

is Alex also is brilliant so

55:39

I appreciate it when he does write it in fact

55:41

to that point

55:42

Wes message Brent and I last

55:45

night I was it was you right or is it no it was Brent Brent

55:47

messages look at these boots coming from Alex we're

55:49

gonna have something great to read we know as soon as we see some

55:51

boots from Alex or something we want to know

55:53

yeah Alex is boosting in we touched

55:55

a little bit about XMPP and matrix

55:57

after much reflection I've come to

56:00

my primary issue with Matrix, aside from the

56:02

protocol versus API and privacy

56:04

versus security issues, Matrix

56:06

has, for all practical purposes,

56:09

been designed as a synchronous social media

56:11

platform, like to Slack and Discord,

56:14

with similar cathedral-style development

56:16

and funding practices,

56:17

the opposite of most open source software.

56:20

It is great at this. But

56:22

here's the rub. I'm not interested in

56:24

synchronous social media platforms and group chats.

56:27

I don't care for the issues of groupthink and

56:29

conformity, even amongst otherwise well-educated

56:31

people. People

56:32

just act differently in groups and text communication

56:35

exacerbates those issues, especially

56:37

defensiveness and a lack of open-mindedness.

56:40

I dislike Discord and Telegram for similar

56:42

reasons. That kinda actually resonates

56:45

with me so far, Alex. Alright, you got me.

56:47

Mastodon and ActivityPub work for me

56:49

because it's more like an inbox, just

56:51

like email. It's more asynchronous and

56:54

easier to ignore people I don't care to communicate

56:56

with.

56:56

More like maybe to a public square and less

56:59

like a pile of speakers attempting to take turns

57:01

at a podium.

57:03

I use XMPP as a signal

57:05

replacement that I control and doesn't

57:07

need a part-time job to maintain. I

57:09

appreciate one-to-one communication much

57:11

more than group chats, even with family.

57:14

XMPP also happens to have

57:16

the properties best suited for large-scale livestream

57:18

events with thousands or even hundreds

57:21

of thousands of people.

57:22

For those reasons, comparing XMPP to Matrix

57:24

would be disingenuous as I don't

57:27

see them accounting for current UI, UX, and

57:29

Blendation as really playing the same

57:31

role. If an XMPP client with

57:33

a Discord-like experience came along,

57:36

I would likely dislike that too.

57:38

That's a pretty compelling argument.

57:41

I was starting to write off XMPP as just

57:43

the, you know, I kinda thought Google came in, Embrace extended

57:45

it, and then broke it for the world,

57:48

but Alex, you're winning me over with this.

57:51

For one-on-one chat, I have really enjoyed

57:53

Simple X or Simple X, whatever you want to call

57:56

it. I think that's kind of my go-to for small little

57:58

private chats, but...

57:59

You know, imagine if we'd had

58:02

a JB XMPP server for the last five years

58:04

and that we use that over Telegram for some of our Telegram

58:06

chat and stuff.

58:08

I think that might have been a better direction to go. Hey,

58:10

I wonder if Alex has any recommendations for an XMPP

58:14

server or other software to use with it because maybe

58:16

we could. Yeah, I'm going to follow it closely because I think

58:18

they're going to integrate this more and more into the podcasting 2.0

58:20

stuff for some of the cross-app comments and

58:23

whatnot too. So

58:24

we'll follow that. Thank you, Alex. Keep

58:26

us posted.

58:27

WisePapaJohn boosted in a whopping 57,777

58:30

sats over two boosts.

58:35

Hey, Rich Luster!

58:39

Hey, I'm still catching up and I'm a little

58:41

late to the party, but happy 500!

58:43

Hey, thank you. It's been

58:46

a blast listening along with you guys. Keep up the

58:48

great work. I really enjoyed the extended

58:50

intros and outros to Linux Unplugged

58:52

and Coder 500, by the way. So that

58:55

was a nice surprise.

58:56

Oh, that's great to hear. Yeah,

58:59

I just enjoy those songs so much. So it was a good excuse

59:01

to just run them along.

59:03

Appreciate the value you boosted in. And

59:05

using Podverse. Anonymous also used a Podverse,

59:07

sending 55,987 sats.

59:12

And you know what? I'm going to give it to them. I

59:14

hoard that which will find covet. They

59:17

write, low power in the case of the

59:19

Zigu.

59:20

Zigu X6100 means both actually. Puts

59:25

out 5 watts on the internal battery in 10 with

59:27

an external. Ah, it's designed

59:29

to be portable. A full desktop form

59:32

factor HF radio typically puts out about 100 watts,

59:35

but it's much larger and will require

59:37

a much larger power supply or battery

59:39

if you want to use it as portable. He

59:42

also OS, it's a boost for a

59:44

zip code. So I'll have to decode that for a second. Winona

59:47

County, Minnesota perhaps. Minnesota? Let

59:50

us know.

59:50

Thank you for that explanation. That

59:53

was an answer to me looking

59:55

for portable radios that I could use while driving.

59:57

Yeah, because that's still like when I would. to

1:00:00

have something and I don't think ham radio is right

1:00:02

for that

1:00:03

and I don't like handheld

1:00:05

just standard family band radio because

1:00:08

you get a hill between you and it goes out and most of the radios

1:00:10

are crap now like I got these

1:00:13

you know they're on a hundred bucks but I got these motor

1:00:15

roll a handset ones and there's like a

1:00:18

computational delay when you hit the button

1:00:20

like the system has to think about it for a second

1:00:22

so you hit the button and you go one one thousand two and

1:00:24

thousand then you can talk oh it's the worst

1:00:27

way talk about unnatural

1:00:29

why is Papa John boosts in again

1:00:31

two days later this time over at the podcast

1:00:34

index with 38,672 sounds b-o-o-s-t again catching up

1:00:39

slowly but surely but

1:00:41

I've got a question for you I currently have

1:00:44

one phone owned by my employer with two

1:00:46

sims inside one work

1:00:48

one personal pretty soon I'll be getting another

1:00:50

phone for personal use likely running graphene

1:00:53

or giraffeine excuse me okay I'm

1:00:55

wondering if anybody

1:00:56

out there has transferred in a similar manner

1:00:59

I'd like to export only the messages from sim one

1:01:01

but I'm not sure the best way to go about that

1:01:04

thanks for the show I'm loving the non-stop jb I have

1:01:06

with all this backlog

1:01:08

ps this is a zip code boost

1:01:10

love the zip code boost thank you ice Papa John

1:01:12

so you know I was just thinking about

1:01:14

this a couple of days ago

1:01:16

I used to move phones by

1:01:19

saving my contacts to my sim card and

1:01:21

then I would take the sim card out and I'd put it

1:01:23

in my next like no gear whatever it was and

1:01:25

I would import my contacts

1:01:27

from my sim card

1:01:29

insane

1:01:30

this this wise Papa John this

1:01:32

is not the way I mean I'm

1:01:35

sure you could do it

1:01:36

but it is not the way what you really

1:01:38

want to do is decide your most comfortable

1:01:40

way to just export those contacts and import them

1:01:42

myself because I already got to the next cloud

1:01:45

I would just sync them out to next cloud

1:01:48

set up the next phone

1:01:49

sign back in the next cloud and sync them back down

1:01:51

sounds like some of the problem too is like the messages I

1:01:54

guess I suppose associated with the various sims

1:01:56

do they even save those to the sim card anymore

1:01:58

with modern android I don't think so

1:02:00

Right? Like they used to. Yeah, I think

1:02:02

it's all on phone. It's not on sim

1:02:04

anymore because the sims are just too small and can't handle

1:02:06

all that information. I know there are several apps

1:02:08

that allow you to like extract

1:02:11

those from the internal, I don't know,

1:02:13

database or whatever they're stored in and that

1:02:15

can make it handy, but I don't think you can make it seamless

1:02:18

so that it kind of just is

1:02:20

back in your messaging app on your new phone. But

1:02:23

maybe they're a solution. So if anyone has a better idea

1:02:25

than we do, please send it in

1:02:27

or boost it in better. Wise

1:02:29

Papa John was boosting in from DeSoto County,

1:02:31

Mississippi. Ah, Mississippi. Now

1:02:34

we got two boosts from Magnolia Mayhem

1:02:36

for 30,000 sats total.

1:02:38

Coming in hot with the boost!

1:02:40

I've never boosted in with the show's audience

1:02:43

itself as the intended target,

1:02:45

but I also consider this a special occasion.

1:02:48

Late last year after the tuxes wrapped

1:02:50

up, there was some talk in Matrix

1:02:52

over how the categorization and nominations

1:02:55

for the awards was to be done this year.

1:02:58

Someone suggested using user testimonials

1:03:00

to inform the next award show, but someone else

1:03:02

brought up the question of how to parse all

1:03:04

that information. My contribution

1:03:07

was the suggestion that we use a word

1:03:09

cloud generator to pick out keywords

1:03:11

from those testimonials immediately followed

1:03:14

by diving in headfirst on

1:03:16

creating those tools. Originally

1:03:18

the project consisted of a web framework that glued

1:03:20

together several other more mature open

1:03:22

source projects, but as scope creep inevitably

1:03:25

came and my own tendency towards reinventing

1:03:27

the wheel rose to the surface, the project's

1:03:30

development became more and more complex, slowly

1:03:33

incorporating a lot of components that

1:03:35

go way beyond a simple word cloud

1:03:37

and into things like natural language processing.

1:03:40

Although the full project isn't complete, the

1:03:42

front end and database are to the point that

1:03:45

I think I can start talking real world

1:03:47

data. With Chris's permission, I'm

1:03:49

now coming to the community here. If

1:03:52

you are interested in contributing to this first

1:03:54

wave of real world data, the current

1:03:56

reference implementation is live

1:03:59

at Kater. cloud.me.

1:04:01

And if you want to get in touch, I have the

1:04:03

Tuxes matrix room in my favorites.

1:04:06

Unfortunately, I'll be on my first day

1:04:08

as a mail carrier when it goes live. So

1:04:10

you may have to wait to get a response.

1:04:13

But by all means, contact me if you have any questions.

1:04:15

This

1:04:15

is a great project, right? We're really trying

1:04:17

to source more information to make the Tuxes

1:04:20

even better and more representative.

1:04:22

And I love that Magnolia Mayhem's

1:04:25

mail carrier, I had no idea. I just

1:04:27

thank you. And his project at

1:04:29

caterecloud.me, it's not live as

1:04:31

far as for me, it's not loading yet. But I imagine

1:04:33

maybe it will be in a day or so after the show gets posted. Yeah,

1:04:36

stay tuned. We'll have it in the links. And then I think the other

1:04:38

thing

1:04:38

that I would underscore there is that Tuxes matrix

1:04:40

room. If you are interested in helping make the Tuxes even

1:04:43

better this year,

1:04:44

we're not actively planning anything right now. But

1:04:46

that will be where we start to organize it. That's where

1:04:48

Mayhem is organizing this right now is that Tuxes

1:04:51

matrix room. Leaky canoe

1:04:53

comes in with 25,000 sets. This was

1:04:55

a just under the wire boost that

1:04:57

Wes's automation picked up 25,000

1:04:59

sats using the podcast index.

1:05:01

And they wrote, I'm always excited to see a notification

1:05:04

when a fresh JB episode drops.

1:05:06

Keep up the excellent work.

1:05:07

Well, leaky canoe, we're always excited when we see

1:05:09

a notification about your boost. So

1:05:12

thank you for the boost.

1:05:13

Skiing monkey boots in with 20,000 sets

1:05:16

across two boosts. Switched

1:05:18

i3 to sway after hearing y'all talk

1:05:20

about trying projects you haven't used in a

1:05:22

while and we're

1:05:24

in rocks.

1:05:27

Oh, we need a clip of that. Drew, I have

1:05:29

to say really briefly, I wanted to mention on

1:05:31

the show some point, this just seems like the right point.

1:05:34

All my systems with the exception of this

1:05:36

Reaper computer right here are running Weyland.

1:05:39

All my desktops, my laptops, this machine,

1:05:41

the OBS machine, everything's

1:05:43

Weyland now. I think

1:05:45

that means it's the year the Linux desktop.

1:05:48

In the second boost here is geing monkey

1:05:50

notes that they're finally back on pixel hardware and went

1:05:53

straight on to giraffeine feels

1:05:55

great to make my phone more free and get control over it. Hey, oh,

1:05:58

yeah, still really good.

1:05:59

enjoying the drafting. I want to do a couple

1:06:02

of shout outs. We get we get some

1:06:04

boost into the show that you know are just

1:06:06

great messages that we want to read. So I'm just going to go through

1:06:08

a couple of these you guys just as a thank you to

1:06:10

everybody who boosted in

1:06:12

Captain Egghead.

1:06:14

Captain Egghead came in with

1:06:16

a row of ducks. Go

1:06:18

value for value and in open source

1:06:21

as well. And I still

1:06:23

strongly believe

1:06:24

what we're doing here it's not we're not there

1:06:26

yet but what we're doing here I think could absolutely

1:06:29

apply to your absolute favorite open

1:06:31

source free software project as well.

1:06:33

And it fundamentally changes the economics of

1:06:35

media production and I believe it would fundamentally for

1:06:37

the better change the economics of free software production.

1:06:40

So I agree. I hope we find

1:06:42

it right there sometime.

1:06:44

Thank you everybody else who boosted in. We got

1:06:47

several more boosts that maybe we'll read in the post show.

1:06:49

Maybe we'll do that to try to and of course everybody's boost

1:06:51

will be in the show notes as well. Oh

1:06:53

Moonlight came in with the next cloud sharing calendar

1:06:56

experience. I wanted to want to touch on that for 10000

1:06:58

sats when moving from iOS to Drafting

1:07:00

I switched from using a shared iCloud calendar to

1:07:02

next cloud and it's been perfect. My girlfriend

1:07:04

uses the iPhone and everything just works the way it did

1:07:06

before. As an added bonus I now sync my calendar

1:07:08

on my Linux desktop as well. Right. Yes

1:07:12

that's true. There's truly no reason to use a spyware version

1:07:14

of these things if you have an X cloud instance.

1:07:17

Next cloud syncing combined

1:07:20

with GS Connect or you know the

1:07:22

KD version whatever that's called. But you know

1:07:25

just really that time with your phone. It is it is

1:07:27

so powerful. I really really love it.

1:07:30

So thank you everybody. We'll read some more in the post show for

1:07:32

everybody that boosted in if you would like to boost into the show

1:07:34

and support us directly that way at a value that you

1:07:37

think is appropriate. I think right now

1:07:39

you have two paths ahead of you. You can get Albie

1:07:41

at get Albie dot com and top it off and then head on over

1:07:43

to the podcast index podcast index dot org.

1:07:45

Look up the old unplugged program and

1:07:48

boost right there. If you have Albie ready to go the boosting

1:07:51

functionality is just automatically embedded into the

1:07:53

podcast index Web site.

1:07:55

If you're ready

1:07:56

to try the wild new world of podcasting

1:07:58

to do apps and there's a great one.

1:07:59

I am. Hmm. I saw Castomatic,

1:08:02

Podverse and Fountain all getting a lot

1:08:04

of representation. Those are some great ones. Newpodcastapps.com.

1:08:07

Podverse just shipped a fantastic

1:08:09

stability upgrade to Android.

1:08:12

Absolutely just nailing it these days. So

1:08:14

if you like a cross-platform GPL podcast player,

1:08:16

check out Podverse. The nice thing about those

1:08:19

is you can boost directly from within

1:08:21

the app, but there's other features down

1:08:23

the road. Transcripts, live streams,

1:08:25

all of that's going to get integrated into the app. It's going to

1:08:28

be so, so fantastic.

1:08:30

So thank you everybody who boosts in and of course, thank you to

1:08:32

our members at our core contributors

1:08:35

that just donate monthly and get an ad free version

1:08:37

or get the bootleg version of the show. Much

1:08:39

appreciation to all of you. I

1:08:43

got a surprise pick for you. Oh, sneaky last

1:08:45

minute surprise pick. Not even in our docs. Not

1:08:47

even in the docs. So, you know, I know

1:08:49

you guys just use disk destroyer to write your,

1:08:52

I mean, DD to write your thumb drives.

1:08:54

Hey, hey, what about DD rescue? Come on. Yeah,

1:08:56

you're right. This is pretty good, actually. I don't mean to tease.

1:08:59

But if you're on Nix OS, I saw

1:09:01

that coming. Etcher is not a great

1:09:03

option.

1:09:04

Etcher is not a great option on Nix. And

1:09:06

honestly, do you need all that shenanigans? Do

1:09:08

you need all that shenanigans just for writing a USB

1:09:10

thumbstick?

1:09:11

I say, nay. I say, check out

1:09:13

Popsicle

1:09:14

by our friends over at System76 and it's

1:09:16

up on Flathub.

1:09:18

This guy is just the simplest

1:09:20

little image writer. It's all you need,

1:09:23

man. You fire it up, you choose your image.

1:09:25

It's got a nice little GUI to pick the right thumbsticks.

1:09:27

You don't overwrite the wrong thing.

1:09:29

And then it gives you the information about

1:09:31

like the speed and the right information, all

1:09:34

the, all the things you like to have.

1:09:36

Oh, it looks like it supports multiple drives at once

1:09:38

too. Fancy. Yes. So you can also,

1:09:41

if, if, if that's your bag, you know, you

1:09:43

can also write to multiple disks.

1:09:45

It'll support ISOs and image files.

1:09:47

You can just like bring them right in from the file manager.

1:09:50

I think they've just made a nice little handy tool.

1:09:52

And the fact that you can use it as a flat pack.

1:09:56

Absolutely great. So it's Popsicle. I

1:10:00

suppose popOS users are like, yeah, what are

1:10:02

you talking about, man? It's already built in.

1:10:06

I've been trying to figure out the Nix connection,

1:10:08

Chris, here, but I think it's just because

1:10:11

you're just hooked on Nix. Yeah, and

1:10:14

it's in Nix's package repository. Oh,

1:10:16

there it is. All right. All right. Great.

1:10:20

Yeah, it's marked as unstable or bad or whatever. I don't know. Just

1:10:22

a quick note here. Do you have your sandboard at the ready? Yeah,

1:10:24

sure. What do you need? Well, it turns out that Popsicle

1:10:27

is at least partially written in Rust. Oh, I thought

1:10:29

so. I suspected that might be the case.

1:10:33

Yeah. You

1:10:33

know what? It fires right up. That's the other thing. It

1:10:36

ain't Electron, you know, and that's nice. That's

1:10:39

nice.

1:10:40

I mean, it's no DD, but it's pretty

1:10:42

nice. You know, we talked a lot about a

1:10:44

really complex issue. I mean,

1:10:47

obviously, we said it has a lot of nuance. And

1:10:50

if you think we missed the mark or if you have a different

1:10:52

interpretation, we'd love to hear from you. Obviously,

1:10:54

the boost would be the best way, but you can also

1:10:57

hit up an old traditional email. It's

1:10:59

Linux unplugged dot com slash contact and

1:11:01

share your perspective on these changes

1:11:03

because I

1:11:05

am open to a convincing argument

1:11:07

here

1:11:08

and I would like to hear somebody articulate it. So

1:11:10

if you think you might have it

1:11:11

or if you have other thoughts, let us know. We appreciate

1:11:14

your feedback.

1:11:15

I already mentioned Linux Action News.

1:11:17

So I think instead what I'll say is Linux Fest

1:11:19

Northwest.

1:11:20

Put it on your calendar. It's going to be in October.

1:11:23

Details at Linux Fest Northwest dot org. It's happening.

1:11:25

Yep. And now we're back to our regular live times as well.

1:11:28

So if you want something on your Sundays,

1:11:30

we'll be streaming over at JB Live dot

1:11:32

TV at 12 p.m. Pacific, 3 p.m. Eastern.

1:11:34

See you next week. Same bad time,

1:11:37

same bad station. And I guess technically

1:11:39

it's archived over at Jupiter dot two. But if

1:11:41

you remember, you get it all packaged up, delivered in

1:11:43

a feed with some audio effects applied. And

1:11:46

Wes sometimes even throws in a chapter marker or two in there

1:11:48

for you. Sure do. What

1:11:50

a gentleman. What a gentleman. All right, guys, we did it.

1:11:52

It's nice. Back in the flow now. Now

1:11:54

we just have to figure out what we're doing next week. Yeah,

1:11:57

that does feel good, though. It's also it feels good because

1:11:59

we're.

1:11:59

at this end and we're gonna go make some tacos. All

1:12:02

right, everybody, thanks so much for joining us on this week's episode

1:12:04

of the Unplugged program, and we'll see you

1:12:06

right back here next Sunday.

1:12:38

Zachatec came in with 16,000

1:12:41

SATs,

1:12:46

and

1:12:48

I thought this was on topic, so I wanted to get it in. My stance

1:12:51

on Red Hat closing its code is, it's

1:12:53

against the spirit of open source, but at the end of the day,

1:12:56

they're not gonna worry about the community backlash, they're gonna

1:12:58

focus more on paying corporate customers,

1:13:00

not everyday users like us. In the end,

1:13:03

we'll see who is right. Personally, what will happen

1:13:05

primarily is Red Hat will continue to make money

1:13:08

and be a presence in large enterprise, similar to Microsoft

1:13:10

and the SMB space, and self-hosters

1:13:12

and general Linux users will move to something like OpenSUSE

1:13:15

or NixOS. Also, on

1:13:17

the one more smaller boost, keep

1:13:19

up the good work and the reporting you guys do. Thanks,

1:13:22

take care, and 73s.

1:13:24

I wanna touch on one point here, because this is something we didn't

1:13:26

talk about in the show.

1:13:28

Do you think this will leave a bad taste

1:13:30

in a lot of users' mouths, and we might see people transition

1:13:33

to Debian,

1:13:34

NixOS, NixOS, because

1:13:36

we didn't see that migration happen

1:13:39

when the stream announcement landed. What we saw

1:13:41

was people just moved to another status

1:13:43

quo and maintained status quo. Wonder if that'll depend

1:13:45

on the next set of releases from the clones,

1:13:47

like do they ship on time, do things keep working,

1:13:50

or is there a little more instability

1:13:52

introduced?

1:13:53

Yeah, I think it's gonna be, I

1:13:56

could talk about the spirit aspect of it, but I think that's so personal,

1:13:59

that's a hard one.

1:13:59

I think we could almost do a whole segment just on

1:14:02

is it the spirit of open source,

1:14:03

but

1:14:04

I have seen a lot of people