0:03

More. Today's

0:09

episode of Back Porch The Algae is

0:11

the continuation of the Hope fertilizing conversation

0:13

alley and I got to have a

0:15

Doctor Craig Keener. He's a world renowned

0:17

New Testament scholar commentary in and he's

0:20

currently a professor at As Barry Theological

0:22

Seminary and Will More Kentucky where we

0:24

got to hang out with them. Doctor

0:26

Keener is one of our heroes of

0:28

the faith, who by the way has

0:30

graciously agreed to be on the teaching

0:33

team at Craig. Matt is coming Spring

0:35

and April twenty four and we are

0:37

over the moon about. That he's

0:39

widely respected for a scholarship

0:41

is get a Phd from

0:43

Did, but even more so

0:45

for his kin, toll compassion

0:48

And it's in that spirit

0:50

of kind humility that Doctor

0:52

Keener dismantles the vitriolic yet

0:54

increasingly popular claims that the

0:56

Bible and those who order

0:58

our lives are the promises

1:00

and parameters prescribed in a

1:02

are racist, misogynistic, and imperialistic.

1:04

mind you, people claiming to

1:07

know God have often behave.

1:09

Despicably and his word has been

1:11

used to promote all kinds of

1:13

horror throughout history. However, when people

1:15

use gods were to promote the

1:18

miss treatment, marginalization, and even the

1:20

murder of others, they have twisted

1:22

and distorted it into something God

1:24

himself never intended because evil is

1:26

not divinely caused it. So please

1:29

grab a cup of coffee and

1:31

your Bible and come hang out

1:33

on. The porch with us. Hey

1:41

hey back Porters, I'm Alison Al on him,

1:43

the Five Foot Twelve spiritual wing woman for

1:45

Lisa Harper for Back Porch Theology and I

1:47

hope that you've been able to be with

1:49

us. would Doctor Craig Keener Cause it's felt

1:51

like church and how it has. It's been

1:53

church, it's been church. And right before we

1:55

started rolling least I said hold on just

1:58

a second because I wanted to check. The

2:00

The Scripture there were a couple of

2:02

times Doctor Keener and In in the

2:04

episodes when you look up to happen

2:07

and I was almost overcome with emotion

2:09

and I'm just gonna tell you what

2:11

I felt. I. Thought

2:13

about Steven where it says he looked

2:15

up to heaven. And the

2:18

held the glory of God. and that's at least

2:20

for me. What's this? is? Felt like and of

2:22

for you it's been really emotional. But I

2:24

just wanna say thank you for helping us

2:26

apprehended Glory of God and the deeper way

2:28

it has been a huge privilege. To.

2:32

Get to t sit with

2:34

someone. His humility has outpaced

2:36

their guest and that see

2:38

I add I came to

2:40

me to data keener. So

2:42

impressed with your knowledge about

2:44

guide but I I hadn't

2:46

had the privilege of meeting

2:48

in person and medium person

2:51

years. Humility is even bigger

2:53

than you wisdom which is

2:55

an. Really a beautiful

2:57

thing to behold. M M we

2:59

know that may Dean's even better

3:01

service so we know see a

3:03

A Our favorite keener vets. It

3:05

has been such a joy to

3:07

hear your story and and of

3:09

what arrested me when you talked

3:11

about how Dad Am. Too.

3:13

Scared. consistent. Love Fi was that you

3:16

were so honest about the broken chapters.

3:18

These I think more than a not

3:20

and first world Christian culture. We assume

3:22

once we meet Jesus is either everything

3:24

will be hunky dory, are we have

3:26

to pretend like it is and that

3:28

see antithesis of the gospel. I think

3:30

it's one of the reasons I'm said

3:32

run Dilutes Castle is because of the

3:34

outliers pets. but we're not going to

3:36

lose yet. I have. I have a

3:38

a more comprehensive question. I want to

3:40

start with I heard you talk about

3:42

this on a podcast. A couple of

3:45

years gun it arrested me You

3:47

talked about descending the indictment against

3:49

christianity that have to us and

3:52

people claim that that for sandy

3:54

as racist and sexist and imperialist

3:56

and I would love for you

3:59

to share. Where the B

4:01

T family. Am a

4:03

descendants of flights? Why?

4:05

our Our God is

4:08

not sexist racist. Or

4:10

imperialist. Where would

4:12

a start? Yeah, he wants. You to run

4:14

and hide have to worry about in. Book

4:17

is t cyst. The

4:20

So much so much in scripture about God

4:22

sorry to me when God. God.

4:24

Created humanity to begin with. He

4:26

created humanity in his image male

4:29

and female and we find out

4:31

more of what that means when

4:33

we get to choose this. chapter

4:36

five were again says he says

4:38

that he created humanity in his

4:40

image male and female and then

4:43

he speaks is how Adam has

4:45

a son and his likeness and

4:47

him. It's like the sun image

4:50

is the language us. Child.

4:53

Soup. We're We're God. Created

4:55

us to be as children.

4:57

He created us for intimacy

4:59

with themselves and. It was

5:01

meant to be. Male. And female.

5:04

And also you seen him

5:07

since his ten table with

5:09

nations are seventy Nation spare

5:11

how God is the. The.

5:13

Author of all those now. Has.

5:17

Because Rare Manatee exalted itself

5:19

against God, you see them

5:21

being divided and Genesis eleven,

5:23

but there's an allusion to

5:25

that and the Book of

5:27

Acts as because that's chump

5:29

to to home. In his

5:31

fulfillment of of word says you

5:33

be witnesses in Jerusalem judaism area

5:35

to the most part of the

5:38

earth. Oh in a. In.

5:40

A way that kind of. Gives

5:43

a foretaste of where the

5:45

narrative of axes going may

5:47

and accept a to be

5:49

preached. it's a crowd is

5:51

of Jewish pilgrims were assessed

5:53

of or and by geographically

5:55

from every nation under heaven

5:58

it says and. The. The

6:00

list geographically looks like and

6:02

the updating genesis. Ten real

6:05

as look at that list. a

6:07

lot was I didn't really affected

6:09

Genesis. Ten. And in a just

6:11

as ten is the is the first.

6:14

Table of Nations and Bible. And.

6:18

For. Those who are good with

6:20

mass the chapter immediately following chapter

6:23

ten as chapter Eleven, which has

6:25

the Tower of Babel. We're

6:28

glad scouters languages judgment,

6:30

but an accepted to.

6:33

He. Scousers languages to bring

6:35

people together. Us. Away

6:37

my online now. yep say that again

6:39

that to I've never, I've studied web

6:42

long time. I've never seen that next

6:44

and blows. I would have studied a

6:46

lot about battle areas and but I

6:49

have never seen scattering and then the

6:51

scattering for the gospel. An axe to

6:53

having connectors that would synthesis goodness and

6:55

people. Thought. That Hebrew was the holy

6:57

language. Guess. But. By.

7:00

Enabling them to worship god another

7:02

pupils. languages, Causes. Sanctified

7:04

Every language is a vehicle for

7:06

his Khosla and. Showing that the

7:08

gospel is that it's. It's for every

7:11

chance. He has recently and

7:13

of course when Peter quotes that he

7:15

knew of In and to Seventeen and

7:17

Eighteen is putting some jokes. The.

7:20

God will put out a

7:22

spirit on off last two

7:24

sons and daughters and actually

7:27

enjoy all. It's is

7:29

three boundaries because you've got the

7:31

gender boundary. These or cigarettes a

7:33

class boundary because he speaks of

7:35

your your male and female servants

7:38

right? And. You

7:40

you've also got will have less

7:42

kind of encompasses Everybody else was

7:44

in Calais since three twenty eight

7:47

mates may be referring back to

7:49

to do a loss of but

7:51

Peter he doesn't get it's fully

7:53

and so it's not until our

7:55

chapter ten Reggie realizes oh don't

7:58

have less. Right right? With

8:00

Cornelius yeah island that Cornelius and his family gets

8:02

saved before peace. And this is a sermon exact

8:05

as we always think we have to finish discourse

8:07

in that he like that either I've read our

8:09

spare time the other side gotta love that. For

8:12

went once, I'm. I

8:14

were so. I. Was praying it

8:16

was a reason. Bible college tonight and assault

8:18

lead like a hospice to go and pray

8:20

for somebody to be healed. I felt like

8:22

us prosecutors certain dorm a certain hall sir

8:24

walked in the hall there's only one person

8:26

there. I said, do you

8:28

prefer something. He said no

8:30

I'm fine and he walked on well

8:32

nice to false impression. I grabbed him

8:34

again Sir yes sir he sits was

8:36

my back for people with prayed for

8:38

before but soon as you want to

8:41

pray go ahead and so I started

8:43

praying. And. The and I'm

8:45

suddenly realizing who are news was to

8:47

pray for him but ah I didn't

8:49

think about what I'm supposed to say

8:51

and some they're like struggling for words

8:54

like thought lucille him and you know

8:56

trying to liberate just says you're not

8:58

heard for your much speaking with I

9:00

was a surprise. Is it all for

9:02

time of economic system? is is is

9:04

suddenly he starts shouting. O'neill

9:07

with you. And I'm

9:09

like wait got him the don't he assess

9:11

assess all guys at is that God is

9:13

isn't that's I want to come back to

9:16

women's that before we go there an alien

9:18

some questions. I want to take it a

9:20

little bit of a rabbit trail because of

9:22

what you just said and what you said

9:25

in previous podcast about believing for miracles and

9:27

because I think some might. Might

9:29

see initially had sex to positions between

9:31

you as an academic and a scholar.

9:35

and years said sas believe in

9:37

miracles will will use speak to

9:39

that from moment because i think

9:42

sometimes we have he was such

9:44

a bad as it grace and

9:46

trees but i think in america

9:49

alleged mcc that split along denominational

9:51

lines and some people assume if

9:53

you're serious about your face is

9:56

gotta put away any of that

9:58

nonsense that isn't ground in empirical

10:00

evidence. I'm like, we're goodness gracious,

10:02

faith. I mean, we believe in

10:05

a virgin birth, we believe in

10:07

resurrection. Would you speak to how

10:10

as a man with a PhD, I read that

10:12

you had 70,000 index cards when

10:16

you were at Duke as a

10:18

PhD candidate because we didn't have

10:21

the same electronic filing systems and

10:23

that those 70,000 cards that I think grew to something

10:25

like 800,000 at some huge amount, that's

10:30

what became this IVP,

10:33

the Bible Background Commentary. I thought, how amazing

10:35

you had all that. Where did you carry

10:37

all those index cards? I didn't carry them

10:40

around with me. But you had them earlier. How

10:43

did you collate them? I mean, just the logistics

10:45

of that many index cards. Well,

10:48

most of them were filed according to birth reference.

10:50

The problem is when it's

10:52

not on computer, when it's just

10:54

handwritten index cards, if

10:56

it applies to multiple texts, you

10:59

can only file it under the first text. So

11:02

I started at a certain

11:05

place in the canon and then

11:07

went forward and figured,

11:09

okay, I'll write this commentary first. And then

11:11

I had it marked where I would file

11:13

it next to file it forward.

11:16

So a lot of the 100,000

11:18

index cards, there

11:20

were before I went just doing

11:22

everything new electronically. A

11:25

lot of them could be used for many

11:27

different biblical texts. Alison

11:30

and I, one is besides quoting, well,

11:33

I should say paraphrasing, our

11:36

favorite Dr. Keener paraphrase

11:38

about, if you get out of the Bible, what you're expecting out

11:40

of the Bible, you need to raise your expectations. We

11:43

live to quote Dr. D.A. Carson.

11:46

And I've read, this is actually his mother

11:48

who said this, not Dr. Carson, that any

11:50

text, whether the context is a pretext or

11:52

a prooftext. We

11:55

so appreciate your emphasis

11:57

on context, understanding.

12:00

who God was speaking with, what it meant

12:02

to that original audience, how that carries forward,

12:04

what's prescriptive and descriptive, and we want you

12:06

to go there too. But

12:08

again, that even marries into this

12:10

question of, as

12:13

a brilliant scholar who gets historical

12:15

context, you are this passionate

12:18

man in tune with the heart of God

12:20

who believes in miracles. Help

12:23

us understand that those

12:25

don't have to be opposites of the continuum.

12:28

If you actually believe the Bible, the Bible

12:31

has plenty of miracles, so you can't be

12:33

an anti-supernaturalist.

12:38

And actually through history, most

12:41

people have believed in miracles, and most

12:43

cultures in the world believe in what

12:46

we would call supernatural in some sense.

12:49

It's actually Western anti-supernaturalism

12:52

that is an outlier in

12:54

the history of human thinking.

12:58

But the influence of David Hume was very

13:00

big on that. I

13:02

can make fun of him now because he's dead.

13:05

So this is a posthumous critique.

13:09

Little Hume or... Puchet. I

13:11

like it. I like it. We're punny

13:13

here. Yeah, we are. Hume

13:18

wasn't the first one to come up with this.

13:20

There were some of the more radical Deists who

13:23

denied miracles, but

13:25

Hume was the one who really popularized it.

13:28

Some of his other essays were really well done.

13:31

That one has been critiqued by

13:33

philosophers over and over again. However,

13:37

because of his other intellectual

13:39

achievements, many people accepted

13:42

what he did on miracles. And most of the

13:44

people today who don't believe in miracles are

13:47

influenced by Hume, whether they recognize

13:49

the name or not. They

13:52

say, well, everybody knows

13:54

that this doesn't happen. Everybody

13:57

knows that science disproves this. was

14:00

basing that on Newton's idea,

14:03

but Newton himself believed in biblical

14:05

miracles. And the early Newtonians

14:07

believed in biblical miracles. It didn't come out

14:10

of science, it came out of human philosophy.

14:13

So knowing the history

14:15

of where that comes from is helpful,

14:18

but also if you believe the Bible, I

14:21

mean, it has all these accounts of it, and

14:24

it leads you to expect that

14:27

God will sometimes still do those

14:29

things. Now, how we define miracles

14:31

can be an issue. And

14:34

there's some things where I believe

14:37

that God doesn't do them anymore.

14:39

I am a complete cessationist, that somebody

14:42

who believes that this has ceased regarding

14:44

the virgin birth. Right, yes,

14:47

sir. No more virgin births. But

14:50

there are other things where Paul says,

14:52

these are different members of the body of Christ, these

14:54

are different gifts in the body of Christ. But

14:57

we have some churches today that seem eager

14:59

to amputate certain members of the body, which

15:02

isn't really a whole body. And then some

15:04

other churches that seem to like to gather

15:06

up the amputated members, which isn't

15:08

a whole body either. We want

15:10

to welcome all the gifts from

15:13

teaching the tongues to toilet cleaning.

15:15

That's not actually in the list.

15:18

That was interesting that you said the

15:20

Western mindset of anti-supernaturalism,

15:23

but we are really the outlier when you

15:25

look at the history of the world. Why

15:28

do you think that is? Do you think

15:30

we think we are such pilgrims and we

15:32

are so self-sustained? And

15:35

it seems to go with the pride

15:38

of even the industrial age and forward

15:41

that we've done this ourselves.

15:44

What do you attach it to with

15:46

Western culture? I

15:48

think that too can be an issue. I

15:51

really think the influence of Hume

15:53

is very big. Now also

15:55

there was a problem during the

15:57

Reformation. a

16:00

reaction because there were a lot

16:03

of medieval miracles. I mean, there

16:05

was the real thing, but then there was also a

16:08

lot of fake things going on. Luther,

16:11

I think, said that it's

16:13

interesting that 13 of the 12 apostles

16:15

are buried in Germany and there are

16:17

enough nails from the Holy Cross to

16:19

shoe every horse in Saxony. There

16:23

were a lot of fake relics floating around, so

16:25

there was a reaction against that. It

16:28

didn't keep Luther from praying for Melanchthon.

16:30

When Melanchthon was under his deathbed and

16:32

Melanchthon got better. It didn't keep Calvin

16:36

from praying for things.

16:38

So it wasn't saying God can't

16:41

do these things, but it was saying

16:43

we don't expect them the way we did in the New

16:45

Testament. And so that

16:47

kind of set a tone, and it

16:51

was appropriate to have some skepticism. I

16:53

mean, the Catholic Church also established some

16:55

criteria, sometimes so stringent that

16:57

they probably ruled out a lot of

17:00

real miracles, but they

17:03

set some criteria because people had been

17:05

so gullible and so fooled by so

17:07

many fake miracles. So there was a

17:10

reaction against that. And there was a

17:12

mercenary element to that. Oh yeah, yeah,

17:14

yeah, yeah. And that still happens

17:16

today, too. So you don't

17:18

want to be gullible, you want to check things out. But

17:22

there is the real thing, just like

17:24

in the Bible. I

17:26

like that you brought up expectancy. A

17:29

couple of years ago, I took my daughter back

17:31

to Haiti, to the village she was

17:33

born in and spent the first couple years of her

17:35

life in. And when I

17:37

brought her back, because they didn't have

17:40

much electricity in her village when she

17:42

had been there earlier, so a lot

17:45

of the people in the village, very small rural

17:47

village, assumed Missy had died, because

17:49

Missy was very sick and most

17:51

of the Haitian children in her

17:53

condition didn't make it. And

17:55

so when we came back to her

17:58

village, they began shrieking. When

18:00

I saw Missy and then they pointed to

18:02

me and they thought I was a hive

18:04

it a priestess because I had the power

18:07

to resurrect messy and I said no no

18:09

no Jesse Jesse Jesse and sell A lot

18:11

of women gathered together we had a meeting

18:13

for they would listen to me, They in

18:15

him as he called me Mama Block I

18:18

am Mama their listen to me explain guide

18:20

and so I was gonna give just a

18:22

very short message with an interpreter about the

18:24

goodness of God about if you're hungry his

18:27

the bread of life. And if

18:29

you're thirsty, he's letting you. Had

18:31

an interpreter why I'm I'm about out on

18:33

a Doctor Kinnaird. Five minutes into a ten

18:36

minute message and he was hot as can

18:38

be. For some I go to Haiti had

18:40

promised gotta be in a missionary somewhere else

18:42

of a give me some ice it was

18:44

always so hot and some just gonna have

18:47

this kind of sort devotional and I'm I'm

18:49

in the middle of this message and a

18:51

woman to my ride at a beautiful older

18:53

Haitian will Mrs stands up and in Creole

18:55

says I need a miracle. And

18:58

I thought that's what she said. I can hear

19:00

korea little but I can't speak it very well.

19:02

only way I thought my goodness gracious you know

19:04

had a good closing stories and they said lisa

19:07

she said she needs a miracle and so they

19:09

asked if I would pray for her biggest They

19:11

saw me as a spear said later and I

19:13

thought. I'm not, I'm not sure for them

19:15

and see. Snow and then see unwell nascar

19:18

for rounder knee and I've never seen thing

19:20

like at her. Knee was swollen the size

19:22

of the. A. Can love than

19:24

it. He could tell is very very

19:26

very infected and I remembered I brought

19:28

peppermint oil with me just to dab

19:30

under my nose because I'm a sissy

19:32

about smells and that was keep you

19:34

from being nauseous with summer different spells

19:36

and hated him. We have a national.

19:38

long story short I think law output

19:40

this this paranoia owner knee because it's

19:42

best to be natural antiseptic. but what

19:44

I'm gonna pray for is that the

19:46

people behind me and he there's a

19:48

medical mission group by me they've got

19:50

to have penicillin this woman I mean

19:52

and as that. Much privacy, friends and medicine

19:54

has once in a loser like this as

19:57

Isis and that's so I'm praying with all

19:59

the say. I could muster which wasn't

20:01

much at that months and it's the

20:03

only time this has ever happened at

20:05

Pray for a lot of feelings and

20:07

yes sometimes you you don't know you

20:10

think I think they got better. Have

20:12

never had anything quite this. Dramatic.

20:15

As I have my hands on this

20:17

woman's knee and I had my eyes

20:20

closed praying and I'm I'm claiming scripture

20:22

and I'm believing that my belief was

20:24

probably a half of mustard seed am

20:26

the swelling begin to go him under

20:29

my hands and I open my eyes

20:31

because I saw at oh goodness Gracious

20:33

in my zeal I've pressed her leg

20:36

and now the toxins are go on

20:38

twitter heart like I thought as as

20:40

probably exacerbated and this is pretty serious.

20:43

I open my. Eyes at at

20:45

ducks Gonna I've never. Never

20:48

experiences her leg went from being

20:50

you the size of cantaloupes, back

20:52

right down to normal as hadn't

20:54

been right They here with my

20:56

hands and ernie i'm nice has

20:59

been suspicious. And

21:01

I was so stuns

21:03

that I i was

21:06

saw and see very

21:08

calmly. Said. She

21:10

had been heels and I

21:12

sense a holy spirit say

21:14

he didn't expect it. And

21:17

I said I didn't. As. Isn't

21:19

it? In my Western mindset, I'm

21:21

thinking there has to be Madison

21:23

because that's what I'm used his

21:26

and I believe God uses medicine.

21:28

The Us are you see was

21:30

com because she expected the healing

21:32

and I about had a cow

21:34

because I was so shocked that

21:36

God would reveal himself that way

21:39

and I've been really convicted that

21:41

I don't have an s expectancies

21:43

when it comes to miracles. I

21:45

mean real miracles in the here

21:47

and now, not just. In biblical

21:50

narrative that today you have

21:52

that. Sometimes

21:55

a fair fight. I've

21:57

studied it. I've. Researched.

22:00

The cases. But.

22:02

Now. I'm the same. Have you

22:04

had push back from Academia because

22:06

that doesn't seem to be a

22:08

bit less December Center with says

22:11

Christian Academia. With. Ah,

22:14

I know, I mean. Entrances.

22:17

In. Terms Of Miracles. Most of my

22:20

friends were secessionist on certain gifts.

22:22

believe that God does things They

22:24

they're open to God doing miracles,

22:26

so I haven't gotten pushback from

22:28

them on this. They acknowledged God

22:31

does this thing soon. And in

22:33

terms of empirical evidence, I mean,

22:35

if we. We. Cite some

22:37

and so right. Summer Books

22:39

Oh. I love you both. A mere

22:42

it is, I guess. if so encouraged

22:44

swim at that is. It that the

22:46

newer when they have some some

22:48

viewers that the little one miracles

22:51

today. oh it's it's less academic

22:53

but his house smaller up to

22:55

date accounts from there is some

22:58

global medical research institute where there

23:00

actually. Are researching.

23:03

Cases. Miracle Reports.

23:06

where they can get the before

23:08

and after medical documentation and then

23:10

published. Published. Feet the Case

23:13

Studies class. And in a

23:15

one of miss about a

23:17

woman who was blind for

23:19

twelve years due to organic

23:21

causes and her husband and

23:23

they were not from our

23:25

church tradition. the talks about

23:28

miracles today on but just

23:30

in desperation. One.

23:32

One night the husband just tried

23:34

out during their family devotions. God

23:36

please oh my wife's ice and

23:38

suddenly she could see. Me

23:40

and. It's medically documented before and after

23:43

a while and it was permanent. Won't

23:45

press permanent is it can be. and

23:47

we we get older right? said Fred.

23:49

see still can seabirds in her. She's

23:51

got some Aids related stuff like. Some.

23:54

Of the rest of us do, but the

23:56

only people who really reacted. Much.

23:59

Against it. The. Online

24:01

New Atheists. Some of them

24:03

really went after it and

24:05

actually know there's another doctor

24:07

who is a secessionist with

24:09

him. He's a. Hardcore cessation

24:12

of so he's not like not

24:14

just again, no gifts As he's

24:16

right, miracles don't happen to her.

24:20

And. Weekly. My

24:22

we have this and afraid they

24:24

may have said yes. I really

24:26

appreciate the way you speak about

24:28

this and you're both on miracles.

24:30

One of my dear dear friends

24:32

was paralyzed and a hit man

24:35

accept when she was a senior

24:37

in high school and she's now.

24:39

She's to slow bit older. The

24:41

May says she's in her early

24:43

sixties. One of the godliness friends

24:45

or has ah married has two

24:47

children that she's been a paraplegic

24:50

since you're seventeen yourself. See

24:52

has so much my face and

24:54

I have. I so am. but

24:56

God has not heels her physically

24:58

and some times and we equate

25:00

the amount of your face with

25:02

the type of your miracle and

25:05

you speak so beautifully to that

25:07

and as and to the mystery

25:09

that the possibility but the mystery

25:11

of physical healings which you would.

25:13

She shares some of that when

25:15

S. Sur. The.

25:18

Bible naturally is going to tell us

25:20

more about the miracle Says what we

25:22

need more red face to more expectation

25:25

to trust God for are we already

25:27

know people get sick and die and

25:29

that's in the Bible to remain You

25:31

look at the genealogy isn't in Genesis

25:33

someone so big out so and so

25:36

many with so many years in the

25:38

may die directly fresh his defeating the

25:40

old I'd or and we all know

25:42

I mean no matter how much face.

25:45

Look. At three years of face

25:47

in eighteen hundreds, Hudson Taylor

25:50

doesn't work towards Mueller they're

25:52

not still with right? So.

25:55

We. All know that happens and.

25:57

The. Bible was very clear that that happens. Bible

26:00

gives examples of people who are not

26:02

yield and doesn't make a big deal

26:04

about it like it needs some big

26:06

explanations to see people know that's the

26:08

way of life happened so it's trough

26:10

in the say left him away the

26:12

second sick intimacy for. A. Passer

26:14

Davis was sick close to the point of death.

26:17

started mercy on him. For. Things

26:19

to a mass you twenty

26:21

five. I was sick and

26:23

in prison and you visited me and in the

26:25

context. Of voice

26:28

and nice to explain this and would

26:30

guess to go on a rabbit trail

26:32

bit just to say get taken says

26:34

that rather assists of we also saved

26:37

that that's that's referring to the poor

26:39

choice. But

26:41

actually the least of these his

26:44

brother and sisters in those in

26:46

the rest of the classics Damascus

26:48

Gospel. It's like whoever does the

26:50

will of my father is my

26:52

brother and sister and mother. and

26:54

it probably eludes back to Matthew

26:57

chapter Ten, where. The.

26:59

People. Are going out to spread the

27:01

gospel are received was great great hospitality

27:04

given a place to stay or least

27:06

given a cup of cold water. So

27:08

whatever you've done at least two these

27:10

my brothers and sisters when they were

27:13

hungry you said them when they were

27:15

thirsty you gave him to drinking and

27:17

so on. is probably referring to the

27:19

so people bring the gospels a different

27:21

cultures but having said that. The.

27:24

Way people applied to the poor. Is

27:27

theologically. Correct even though it's

27:29

not with that text to starting back.

27:31

Proverbs says whoever gives to the poor

27:33

lens the Lord and Lord will repay

27:35

them. so I'm not disagreeing with and

27:38

theologically on that. but in terms of

27:40

what that. Passage. Means messy.

27:42

Twenty five. Some. The. Good

27:44

news is preached. Among

27:47

all the nations and them and nations

27:50

are judged according to how they responded

27:52

to the gospel well. One

27:54

of the conditions of the people bring the

27:56

gospel is. There. Six. as

27:59

will listen pre and so on. Elisha

28:04

was sick from the sickness with

28:06

which he died when he

28:08

was prophesying. And yet he

28:10

was so full of the power of God

28:12

that when they threw a corpse in the

28:14

top of his bones, the corpse came to

28:16

life. Heiser the prophet was blind.

28:19

I mean Moses, you know, he was

28:21

120, he wasn't blind, but Heiser was

28:23

blind. And yet he

28:26

was still prophesying accurately what the Lord

28:28

was saying. And actually

28:30

he prophesied that the

28:32

boy, that the

28:35

king's wife had come to inquire

28:37

about, the boy would

28:40

die of his sickness

28:42

because he was the only

28:45

one in the family that the Lord had found something

28:47

good in. So he

28:50

could die before the worst fate

28:53

was going to come on the

28:56

household. I mean you have

28:58

examples like this in Scripture, and

29:01

yet you have passages that say, like in

29:03

James chapter 5, the

29:05

Lord will heal if there's

29:08

faith. In the

29:10

Gospels, often miracles

29:12

are associated with faith. There's

29:15

an invitation to faith, to trust Jesus, He's

29:17

right there, ready to heal. At the

29:20

same time, it's not always

29:22

that way. So with

29:25

the stealing of the storm, the disciples

29:27

most definitely were not

29:29

believing. They were like, Jesus, wake up, we're

29:31

going to die. Don't you want to

29:33

be awake when we die? And he

29:36

steals the storm and he says, where's your faith? Or

29:39

you have little faith. The

29:42

disciples rather consistently don't display much

29:44

faith. Jesus says, if

29:46

you have just a mustard

29:48

seed, you can save this mountain, be

29:50

removed. And

29:53

the context of that is, I mean, that's

29:55

clearly a teaching for all believers. 1 Corinthians

29:57

13, you know, evokes

30:00

that, where if I had all

30:02

faiths for us to move mountains, it's

30:05

hyperbole. Right. And

30:07

I think some of the sayings about it always

30:09

happening are also hyperbole. They're

30:11

meant to invite our faith. What

30:14

I think we need to take into account is like

30:16

the setting that you were in in Haiti, and

30:19

people thinking you were doing voodoo or

30:21

something, especially

30:23

on the cutting edge of evangelism, is

30:26

where we see it most consistently.

30:28

Not exclusively, by any means, but

30:31

most consistently. Like

30:33

my friends in

30:36

Mozambique, they would go

30:38

into villages completely

30:40

unchurched, and

30:44

people were consistently healed of

30:46

blindness and deafness so

30:48

that the next day they would start a

30:51

church in the village. An

30:54

entire region that was classified as

30:56

one religion became classified

30:58

as a different religion because of

31:00

these signs and wonders God was

31:02

doing through groundbreaking evangelism.

31:07

And of course we have gifts of healings in 1

31:09

Corinthians. But I take those

31:11

as different. I mean, and in James also

31:13

I take those as different from signs because

31:16

healing can be, you

31:18

pray for the sick, they get better

31:20

through medical means, they get better gradually. All

31:22

those are still God's answer to prayer. But

31:26

when it's a sign, and

31:28

again, not exclusively in groundbreaking areas,

31:31

but especially in groundbreaking areas, that's

31:34

where you have it most consistently in scripture.

31:37

And when John the Baptist sends

31:39

to Jesus, he says, are you

31:41

the one to come or should we look for somebody else?

31:43

You know, I said you were going to baptize in the

31:45

Holy Spirit and fire, and they just hear you're healing some

31:47

people. I don't see any fire. Right, hugging

31:49

lepers. Yeah. So what's up?

31:52

And Jesus says to the

31:54

messengers, go back to John,

31:56

tell him what you've heard and seen, so

31:58

appealing to eyewitness evidence. the

32:00

the blind see the

32:02

deaf here the disabled walk

32:05

and The good news is

32:07

preached to the poor He's

32:09

using the language from two texts from the book

32:12

of Isaiah Isaiah 35 and also

32:16

Isaiah 61 and Both

32:19

of those texts are in the context of God

32:21

restoring his people, you know, he does it in

32:23

phases It didn't all happen at once which

32:26

was what some people were expecting But he

32:28

did it in phases and yet

32:31

This this restoration includes a new heavens

32:33

and a newer and Isaiah 65 John

32:37

the Baptist is waiting for the you know,

32:39

all of it to break out and What

32:42

Jesus is doing? He's sending this

32:44

message back to John and saying I

32:47

am the Kingdom bringer. Yeah, this is the

32:49

foretaste There's more to come

32:52

But all of us who

32:54

believe that Jesus is the king and

32:57

who believe Jesus has come and is yet to

32:59

come Thereby have

33:01

to believe that the kingdom is already and

33:03

not yet that we

33:05

already have a 40 May

33:15

I read a quote from spirit hermeneutics

33:17

Which brings it right back to this

33:19

point because I find it so fascinating the

33:21

emphasis on the miraculous Um,

33:23

you quoted I think his name is

33:25

Mujang Lee and you

33:28

said the growing churches in the non-western

33:30

world are mostly Pentecostal

33:32

charismatic as Seen in

33:34

Latin America independent churches and charismatic

33:36

movements in Asia Observing

33:38

that Christianity is losing its traditional

33:41

Western forms. We warned that we'll

33:43

need to fully recover its

33:45

charismatic character To survive

33:47

and flourish. Can you speak to that

33:50

for just just a moment? Dr. Keener? That's it's

33:52

kind of what you've been talking about, isn't it?

33:55

And A lot of observers of the Global Church

33:57

have made the same point. No. There

34:00

is magic. Fear is not like defining

34:02

a certain kind of theology life except

34:04

that. The. Bible is

34:06

our mouth is and you know if we

34:09

don't impose or western theology on it what

34:11

we see in the Book of Acts in

34:13

a some people say ah the Book of

34:15

Acts as just for purely historical description. That's.

34:18

Not the way historians wrote in

34:20

and single season historians in antiquity.

34:23

Wanted to provide models and stay

34:25

positive and negative models with others.

34:28

Say God to regard works as

34:30

that's positive and actually that's the

34:32

way that. The. Paul said

34:34

narratives and the and I really

34:37

think that in some people though

34:39

see very loudly we believe in

34:41

the bible. We defend the bible,

34:43

but when it comes to believing

34:45

all the bible, he knows it

34:48

all scriptures and smart and is

34:50

profitable for teaching for a second

34:52

smithy three sixteen i'm a tall

34:54

She quotes in in in First

34:56

Christians chapter ten he gives examples

34:58

from the Old Testament and then

35:01

says. These things

35:03

happened to them. True stories. And

35:06

they were written down. As

35:08

examples for us so we could

35:10

learn from them again. And in

35:12

Romans Chapter Fifteen Romans Chapter Four

35:14

In The Redraws from the example

35:16

of Abraham. To.

35:18

Treat. What? Happens in asks.

35:21

You receive power after the Holy Spirit comes on.

35:23

Uribe witnesses through some judaism area the other most

35:26

parts of the earth. That.

35:28

Is. Addressed specifically to

35:30

people who were eyewitnesses of

35:32

Jesus ministry, does that mean

35:34

that the the mission stops

35:36

when they? Welt,

35:39

It she says they need the

35:41

power. The spirits of this mission

35:43

in accepted to. His

35:45

Peters preaching He says this promise

35:47

the gift of the spirit is

35:50

for you. For. Your children.

35:52

For. All were far off. As.

35:54

many as the lord our god so

35:57

call which actually is is minnesota go

35:59

to college Picking up where

36:01

he left off in his quotation from

36:03

Joel 232 in English version of

36:06

of it And so what

36:08

we see in the book of Acts is Something

36:11

that we can expect. Yeah in terms

36:13

of I mean not each of us

36:16

individually Different gifts in the

36:18

body of Christ, but the church as a whole We

36:21

can see groundbreaking evangelism continuing to

36:23

go on until like Revelation

36:25

5 9 and 7 9 People

36:28

from every kindred and tribe and people in

36:31

nation are before God's throne. So good, right?

36:34

Right and in first Corinthians 13

36:36

by the way, I know Miracles

36:39

and evangelism and all that most

36:42

people most Christians agree that

36:44

those things God can still do but But

36:48

even for some of the things that they think

36:50

don't I mean first Corinthians 13 is the one

36:52

text That would most

36:54

explicitly address that and

36:57

it says These

36:59

gifts prophecy knowledge

37:01

and of course Most

37:03

people don't say knowledge is passed away Sometimes

37:06

they redefine what it means in that passage, but

37:09

Knowledge prophecy and tongues will

37:12

pass away because they're partial and we

37:14

won't need what's partial We won't

37:16

need partial knowledge when we know as we are known

37:19

Who's going to need prophecy when I mean,

37:21

you know, we're in the New Jerusalem He

37:25

says when we see him face to face

37:27

it will be enough Yeah, and that's clearly

37:29

talking about when Jesus comes back right,

37:33

do you think and Not

37:36

gonna ask this question. Well, I heard somebody

37:38

teach And and

37:40

I thought it was very interesting. They

37:42

connected our eschatological view

37:45

to our Expectancy regarding

37:47

miracles. How would you

37:49

connect those to your eschatological view with your

37:52

Expectancy regarding miracles today

37:56

If we believe Jesus has

37:59

already come And he's yet to come.

38:01

We have to believe that the kingdom is already not

38:03

yet. And if we believe that, okay,

38:06

we know we don't have everything

38:08

perfect yet. I

38:10

fly a lot for work. And

38:12

I love what I get to do. I tell

38:15

stories about Jesus, but sometimes all I

38:17

want to do is get

38:19

back home. You know, once the conference is

38:21

over, I just can't, I'm kind of like

38:23

a horse headed for the barn. So

38:26

when the flight attendant says, put

38:28

away your iPads and your iPods and put your

38:30

tray tables up, like my

38:32

heart quickens a little bit because I

38:34

think I'm almost home. And

38:37

that's what the miracles remind me of.

38:39

It's that it's a quickening of that

38:41

he's, there is an

38:43

eternal home where there'll be no more dying

38:45

and no more crying and seeing

38:48

your sister-in-law raised when they're dead, seeing

38:50

a woman's knee, hearing

38:53

someone who's blind and now they

38:55

can see him like, that's right.

38:58

That's the new Jerusalem. Everything is

39:00

going to be healed and restored and

39:02

made brand new. Like a holy

39:04

breadcrumb on the trail home. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

39:06

Allie and I would love in these last

39:08

few minutes for you to talk about what

39:10

God has revealed to you about how

39:13

he uses women for kingdom

39:15

purposes. And we want to be an

39:17

equal opportunity of honor because

39:21

Allie and I, I don't want to speak for you, but I

39:23

grew up in a church where women were definitely,

39:27

didn't have a lot of opportunity for

39:29

leadership and in anywhere

39:32

outside the home. And

39:34

some of the first positions I had in

39:38

invocational ministry, one particular

39:41

well-meaning gentleman told

39:43

me that I was going to get paid exactly

39:45

half of what my male

39:47

counterparts were paid because man

39:50

was a glory of God and woman was a glory of man. And

39:52

so if he paid me as much as the gentleman

39:55

I worked with, then God would be displeased

39:57

with him. Another place I couldn't wear open-to-it

39:59

shoes. because I was told the line between

40:01

my big toe and my little toe was reminiscent of

40:03

cleavage and I would cause men to stumble if I

40:05

wore sandals. So from

40:08

the era I grew up in

40:10

and some of the church, and

40:12

would you speak to that, especially

40:14

for the women? We

40:16

don't want people to become strident or

40:18

start banging drums that cause division

40:20

in church, but I do

40:23

want especially younger sisters to go,

40:25

oh, wow,

40:27

that wasn't what God intended. The

40:29

Bible is not misogynistic.

40:33

People don't recognize how

40:36

different our culture is from there,

40:38

except when they get the passages that

40:41

like, okay, women have to wear head

40:43

coverings in church or holy kisses. I

40:47

used to think we had to do holy

40:49

kisses and I hadn't

40:52

worked up the courage yet to do it, which

40:54

was, I knew somebody was going to belt me

40:56

in the face if I did it. And

40:59

they also thought that women shouldn't speak in church

41:03

at that point, but

41:06

I didn't go to the cleavage of

41:08

the toes thing. You

41:10

weren't quite there. No, I don't know. God

41:12

protected you from that one. Yeah.

41:16

And it was like, it didn't feel like

41:18

it was God's heart. It didn't seem

41:20

to fit, but I didn't know what to do with

41:22

those passages. But see, there's all

41:24

these other passages too, where

41:27

women weren't silent, where

41:30

they actually, and actually, if

41:32

Rebecca, if Isaac had listened

41:34

to Rebecca, it would have saved Jacob and Esau so

41:37

much trouble down the road because she actually heard from

41:39

God. But we have

41:41

examples in the Bible of

41:44

women who prophesied. And of

41:46

course, that's the most common

41:48

ministry of the word. If

41:50

you take scripture as a whole, the

41:53

Old Testament being like three quarters of the

41:55

Bible. So you have Miriam,

41:58

Exodus 15. You

42:00

have Deborah. Ann. Judges For

42:03

Force is actually not just a

42:05

prophetess, she's also the judge of

42:07

all of Israel, which. Would. Be like

42:09

a prime minister has that center in

42:11

his house. Canada or the you say?

42:13

That said, the top position c

42:15

or president in the realm of.

42:19

And actually among the among the

42:21

judges. The only two

42:23

were prophets. Were. Deborah

42:25

and Samuel. So.

42:29

I'm Deborah. You've also got and

42:31

talk about you know, having

42:33

authority and stop authority sensor and

42:36

speaking the word of God

42:38

with authority. You've got how the.

42:40

We love dogs around. Various

42:43

area say. Certain things are

42:45

twenty two and twenty three. I mean

42:47

exactly the same way. This has it.

42:50

Has. A kayak. Sense.

42:52

To Isaiah century earlier in

42:54

the same way. To.

42:56

Sire sense to holder for the

42:58

would have the Lord for Israel.

43:02

And. In the in the

43:04

New Testament you house Simeon Ama

43:06

veered liquid to peer the in

43:08

of the stories about the men

43:10

and women sick and Simeon an

43:12

Ama you got a bus in

43:14

x, Twenty one you've got activists

43:16

and soaps. Four daughters you've got

43:18

on. Croissants to

43:20

serve as a nation san this

43:22

is the should be normal sense

43:25

and might. Oh okay

43:27

yeah it was just during the

43:29

process. Oh does he get to

43:32

the eye out for first prescriptions?

43:34

Eleven or four and five posts.

43:36

Talks about women praying and process

43:39

signs are provided. The has you

43:41

covered. So essential for cultural issues.

43:43

Fair. In In In

43:45

Romans Chapter sixteen Of or seven. You.

43:48

Have a woman apostle a least that's

43:50

the the likeliest way to take the

43:52

green sunny out. And and that's the

43:55

way the early church fathers mean John

43:57

to system said he knew wow, He

43:59

called. The apostle hadn't run, said had

44:01

to be. A one had the ball was saying

44:03

you know for. Sure, even greater than me

44:06

M M as in in Andronicus it

44:08

they're great abs that I love them

44:10

as such as I grew up thinking.

44:14

Below I thought I had to marry pastor

44:16

and play the piano. And and then I

44:18

thought well. Lord. Of said, if

44:20

I don't do that then there's really

44:22

any to keep my head down. maybe

44:24

not covered, but certainly down and be

44:27

due to full and as I do

44:29

anything else. Maybe I can teach Sunday

44:31

school the kids that if I do

44:33

anything else I would be usurping am

44:35

your will and add because and division

44:38

in the body. And it's only been

44:40

the last twenty years of my life

44:42

that I haven't felt guilty for being

44:44

a woman. Talking. About Jesus

44:46

and At and I just with Alice

44:48

and I both you again do not

44:51

want to cause division and I have

44:53

Dear dear dear friends who are hardcore

44:55

travel and Syrians. Dear dear friends who

44:57

are hardcore Galatea guns and I'm not

45:00

on the scale Cisneros, I just tend

45:02

to get that. To me that's not

45:04

a real biblical scale. I want to

45:06

go back. Like you said to Genesis

45:09

and Market Guts to sign and and

45:11

then talk about what we can do.

45:13

That we do have all these biblical.

45:15

Press and force. But I do

45:17

you think a healthy understanding of

45:20

the way God used and years

45:22

is? women? For. Kingdom purposes

45:24

is is an. We

45:27

need that and this culture. especially

45:30

in the wake of the Me

45:32

Too movement. worse. I've heard so

45:34

many. People. Castigate.

45:37

Scripture. As being an anti woman

45:40

take some like it's not, it's not,

45:42

It's not that not in deterrent to

45:44

be twenty two that's been. I love

45:46

that passage. not because of what happened

45:48

to the woman, but for god's sake

45:51

know my girls deserved to be protected.

45:53

So from now on the one who

45:55

is is is going to. marginalize

45:58

or abuse a while. He's the

46:00

one who gets at the he's

46:02

won his gonna get discriminated against

46:04

yes in instead of the woman

46:06

but I'm I'm grateful to am

46:08

grateful d for riding simple women

46:11

and wise to Vegas. It's one

46:13

thing when a woman talks about

46:15

how much God values his daughters,

46:17

it's another thing when a male

46:19

scholar cheeses attack on that subject

46:21

and sure you did get some

46:23

pushback are now when that. When I

46:25

got a lot of prospect in fact, The

46:28

first came out and Nineteen Ninety

46:30

Two the first version of it

46:32

and. To. To

46:34

date, out of my thirty five books,

46:36

that is the one I've gotten the

46:38

most. Harsh

46:41

feedback with an evangelical circles.

46:44

Actually, there's there's two texts in the

46:47

New Testament. That. Speak.

46:50

Of women keeping silent inserts.

46:53

And were some people like to go with

46:55

it. they say okay women don't as to

46:57

keep completely silent the just can't be senior

46:59

pastor. But. The text doesn't

47:02

say that. It says they

47:04

have to be silent inserts. So.

47:07

I mean, if we take it to mean all that, it

47:09

can mean. They.

47:12

Can't. Sing in the choir they can't

47:14

sing in the pews and people say no,

47:16

no, it doesn't mean that will have you

47:18

know It doesn't mean that the moment you

47:20

say it doesn't mean all that can possibly

47:23

mean the moment you qualify it. You're.

47:25

Recognizing that. You.

47:28

Have to qualify. For. Various

47:30

reasons and one of the

47:33

reason says. The. Expectations were

47:35

completely different and his

47:37

conservative circles. Especially

47:40

in conservative Greek circles. Women

47:43

were not supposed to speak in

47:45

front of another woman's husband. That

47:47

was considered. Bad. And

47:50

even you can even even if you

47:52

don't know any other background you can

47:54

see and genes. For twenty seven the

47:56

disciples came found Jesus speaking with the

47:58

woman to well and. They

48:01

were astonished produce feeding with a

48:03

woman breath because it it violated

48:05

cultural norms so again that everywhere

48:08

but it violated conservative cultural norms.

48:10

same people to said women as

48:13

to her head coverings and so

48:15

on. Polish trying to keep peace

48:17

in the church and also again.

48:20

The women were not the ones where the most

48:22

educated. It

48:24

was customary to interrupt lectures

48:27

was questions back then as

48:29

now is Greek lectures Jewish

48:31

lectures. people could interrupt us

48:33

questions. But.

48:36

I'm learning questions, They.

48:39

Would slow everybody down. There were just in a. Purpose.

48:42

Isn't prescriptions fourteen? ask your

48:44

husband is questions at home in

48:47

the to us that sounds.

48:50

Sexist. But. Keep

48:52

in mind that in that culture. On.

48:54

Average Greek. Men were. Twelve.

48:57

Years older than their wives. They.

48:59

Normally treated their wives his children. That was

49:01

because of the shortage of women. They want

49:03

to know that. but I'm treated their wife's

49:06

his children, Plutarch:

49:08

Who is. By.

49:10

His own concession his one of the

49:13

most progressive writer spend security his she

49:15

says no, I'm not like other other

49:17

men. I think that women can learn

49:20

and so. Pollyannas. Make

49:22

sure you teach your weiss. Oh.

49:25

It's instructor because she can learn. And.

49:28

Is left to themselves. Women produced nothing

49:31

but these passions and folly when I

49:33

was on. The progress is at it

49:35

you know and so called. the probably

49:37

ruin it like that but he's is

49:39

writing. The. Women to

49:42

learn. That's what would the

49:44

most counter kestrel there's revolutionary,

49:46

yeah and the same. And

49:48

first, timothy, let them learn.

49:50

Quietly. And submissive li. that

49:53

was the appropriate way for novices

49:55

of any sort of to learn

49:57

initial novices. They would learn quietly.

49:59

The. Ask questions you know

50:01

when they give further along

50:04

what's unusual, what's extraordinary. His

50:06

lesson learned. And

50:08

and the the keeping silence in

50:11

on prescriptions fourteen. He

50:13

says keep silence. And search.

50:16

But. He's already said a few chapters earlier,

50:18

women can pray and process, oh yes,

50:20

sir, X ray, were they doing with

50:22

six right, right, right? It. Can't

50:25

mean yeah all the people symptoms take

50:27

it to me and in most churches

50:29

don't take it to me. Know we

50:31

can possibly mean because they let women

50:33

same random church so if you're gonna

50:35

what we're missing inserts. Why? Not

50:37

go ahead and explore the background more

50:39

fully. In a with a lot of

50:41

background I guess. like you know I

50:43

can talk about Pontius Pilate are here

50:46

to grip and you say oh that

50:48

makes sense Oh I understand detects better

50:50

but there are certain things where you

50:52

read them and and you know. Okay

50:54

well this actually changed the way I

50:56

practice this whole he chases and and.

50:59

Head coverings, And

51:02

going to try to get a

51:04

polls close to bring it to

51:06

him second timothy for which. Probably

51:10

neither. Have you ever obey them direct

51:12

command the scriptures but know it's yeah

51:14

I we understand that was addressed a

51:17

certain person certain setting all scriptures for

51:19

all time not of scriptures for all

51:21

circumstances we need to make sure we

51:24

find the and now the circumstances to

51:26

what was originally addressed by. that's why

51:28

I wrote the backroom commissary with the

51:30

make available. In

51:33

or it's one thing to say. Okay, you

51:35

need to understand what was being addressed when

51:37

I was reading forty chapters of the bible

51:39

the day. I. I realized,

51:42

first of all, a realist. Oh,

51:44

it's got this literary context. But

51:46

seconds when I realized. And

51:49

in not as important as the

51:51

literary context, but well, Paul's.

51:54

writings letter to christians and wrong

51:56

she says that explicitly that versus

51:58

is inspired is the the rest

52:00

of the letter, that he's writing this to

52:02

the Christians in Rome, I need to understand

52:04

as best

52:06

as I can what he's

52:08

addressing there, what he's

52:10

addressing in Corinth, what he's addressing in Philippi.

52:13

The more I know about the culture,

52:16

we don't know everything about it, we

52:18

don't know everything about the setting, but the more

52:20

we can know about it, the

52:22

more it helps us to understand, but I can't just tell

52:24

people learn the culture and they don't have

52:26

access to it. So that's why I did the background

52:28

comic series. I love it because I think so

52:31

often when I hear people who

52:33

become dogmatic

52:35

about something that God isn't

52:38

dogmatic about, it's usually, well,

52:40

the Bible says. And

52:42

I find myself now almost tickled, I

52:44

want to go, well, I don't actually

52:46

want to say. And I believe in

52:48

the inerrancy of God's word for, I

52:50

don't cut and paste scripture for his

52:52

inerrant, for his inerrant prisons and purposes.

52:55

But it's like, I love that you gave

52:57

the, you

52:59

use the parapet passage

53:02

about the roof. Cause I thought for people

53:05

who, you know, don't touch my

53:07

sacred cow, that one

53:09

you go, Oh yeah, that's contextual. Right. But, but the

53:11

word, I don't know, I shouldn't

53:17

use that anymore. Yeah, that too is contextual.

53:19

But explain that passage in Deuteronomy about that.

53:21

Because I think when you get that, you

53:23

go, Oh,

53:25

now I see context really is critical. Yeah.

53:30

Yeah. So I'll often ask my

53:32

students toward the beginning of the semester,

53:35

how many of you have a fence around your roof? And

53:39

almost always, none of them say yes.

53:42

Right. And I start walking out of

53:44

the room, you guys are liberal, you don't believe in

53:46

Bible and through with you. But

53:49

the passage says to build

53:52

a parapet or a fence around your

53:54

roof, lest you incur blood

53:56

guilt. And the

53:59

reason for that is that your neighbor could fall off, you

54:02

know, you're entertaining your neighbor on the roof. Because they had flat

54:04

wrists, right? Kids on the roof, yeah. Fall

54:06

off, break their neck. Right. Yeah, because

54:08

the roofs are flat. Well, our roofs aren't flat. We don't

54:10

take our neighbors up on the roof today. Right.

54:13

So getting that background helps

54:16

us understand the principle there is caring

54:18

about your neighbor's safety. That

54:20

principle is still true today. And

54:24

I think always the principle is true,

54:26

but we need to see to what that's applied.

54:29

Row to row is to get my cloak. Well,

54:31

the principle we learn from that is

54:34

the closeness that Paul had

54:36

with Timothy, his mentee, that

54:38

he could ask him to do something for him,

54:41

to come to him before winter, which of course

54:43

that was the issue

54:45

of travel during winter was very dangerous.

54:49

But I mean, we see the closeness. Some of the things

54:51

we see in Paul's letters about his

54:54

intimacy with the congregations, you know, these aren't

54:56

the verses we quote. I

54:58

can learn this doctrine from this, but I mean,

55:00

the pastoral relationship is something we can learn from

55:03

too. So there's always something

55:05

we can learn from scripture. And

55:07

I think in the case of, you know, the women

55:09

being silent in churches, but he

55:12

says, let them learn. The principle

55:14

is before

55:16

we try to speak what scripture

55:19

says, let's learn what

55:21

scripture says. Right. The

55:24

principle is more about learning rather

55:26

than about gender. Dr. Keener,

55:28

may I take a liberty for

55:30

just a moment? We have a habit of reading

55:32

scripture on BPP. And

55:36

I remember when I was first

55:38

come back to Jesus, I remember reading this scripture

55:40

in Luke and it was just one of those

55:42

eye popping moments. And so all I want to

55:45

do is read it and ask you to

55:47

speak to it and maybe bring a

55:49

little bit of cultural understanding and background.

55:51

Okay. So this is Luke 8

55:53

and it says this, it says, afterward he was

55:55

traveling from one town in Village to another preaching

55:58

and telling the good news. of the kingdom of

56:00

God. The 12 were with

56:02

him and also some women who had been

56:05

healed of evil spirits and sicknesses. Mary

56:07

called Magdalene, seven demons had come out of

56:09

her. Joanna, the wife of

56:12

Kuzzaa, Herod Stewart, Susanna, and

56:14

many others who were supporting

56:16

them from their own means.

56:18

Can you just unpack that for a moment?

56:20

It's kind of world upending, isn't

56:22

it? In a lot of ways. And

56:25

Joanna, the

56:27

wife of Kuzzaa, Herod Stewart, probably

56:31

did have significant means that she could

56:33

do. The others, we don't know what

56:35

their means were. But

56:37

it's also interesting the context of this,

56:40

because it comes right after 736 to 50, where

56:44

you have a woman who

56:47

comes and anoints Jesus' feet, and you've

56:49

got the contrast between this woman and

56:52

Simon the Pharisee, and which

56:54

one gets commended, and which one gets corrected. So

56:57

the gender issue is

57:00

on the table there in that context. And

57:04

it also prepares for when

57:07

you get to Luke chapter 10, because

57:09

here are women among

57:11

Jesus' disciples. Disciples doesn't mean

57:13

just the 12. And I

57:16

didn't mention this earlier, but apostles actually

57:18

is a broader term. Luke

57:20

usually uses it for the 12. Paul

57:22

uses it in a much broader way. James

57:25

the Lord's brother, Silas and

57:27

Timothy, and Andronicus and

57:29

Junia, and so on. But

57:32

in the case of Luke chapter 10, verses,

57:36

I believe it's 38 to 42, you

57:40

have Jesus and

57:43

disciples showing up at

57:45

the home of, in

57:48

Bethany, the home of Mary and Martha.

57:51

And Martha is really struggling to

57:53

get this meal ready. I

57:56

mean, this is a lot of new guests, and

57:58

she's probably heard. You know last

58:01

time Jesus had people over there were 5,000 men But

58:07

she she And

58:09

she's she's right. I mean what she's doing is

58:11

a good thing. There's nothing wrong with what she's

58:13

doing And

58:15

that was considered the proper mate and

58:17

matronly role in her culture that she's

58:19

fulfilling And

58:21

she wants Mary to help her which

58:23

again is not an unreasonable expectation to

58:25

accept that Mary

58:27

chose the better part to

58:30

be a disciple to sit at Jesus feet Now

58:33

sitting it it's somebody's feet Luke uses

58:35

that expression only one of the time

58:37

in his two volume work in Luke

58:39

acts And that's in Acts 22 3

58:42

where Paul says I

58:44

sat at the feet of the malial The

58:47

posture of a disciple sitting at the feet

58:49

of a rabbi and of course in

58:51

Mishnah abot 1 1 That's

58:54

the description of the language of disciples

58:56

sitting in the dust at at the

58:58

rabbi's feet I mean people

59:01

people of means at least had chairs

59:04

They could recline on couches or at least

59:06

on math But to

59:08

sit in the dust somebody's feet that

59:11

was to take the posture of a disciple and

59:13

and Jesus says Mary has

59:15

chosen the better part Hmm Fikine

59:21

if you And

59:24

let me say at a time. This is not a kind question

59:28

if you could only teach Mmm

59:31

on two passages for the rest of

59:33

your life and What

59:36

would they be and why and

59:38

you can tomorrow you could give

59:40

different passages But today if

59:42

you knew you had to I know you love acts

59:45

you have four volumes on acts You're

59:48

coming out with a commentary on mark I

59:51

add this is such a an

59:53

unkind question to ask you to pick

59:55

your favorite biblical child but

59:57

if you had to just

1:00:00

teach on two passages for the rest of your

1:00:02

life. What would they be

1:00:04

and why? The

1:00:06

Old Testament and the New Testament. Oh,

1:00:08

goodness. Of course. Yes.

1:00:11

Okay, in the New Testament. In

1:00:14

the New Testament. It's really down a bit. Maybe

1:00:17

just even a book, because you see, I heard

1:00:19

you on a Dr. Michael

1:00:21

Bird podcast, say that if

1:00:23

you had to choose your two favorite books,

1:00:25

that they would be Acts and Revelation. And

1:00:28

it made me wonder why you chose those.

1:00:31

Whatever book I'm spending time becomes my favorite.

1:00:33

So I mean, that's a given. It's all,

1:00:35

that's inspired word and it's all amazing. But

1:00:38

why Acts and Revelation? Well,

1:00:41

now it would be Acts and Mark, because there's

1:00:43

the most recent ones I've worked on, but I

1:00:45

love Revelation. Yeah. Revelation,

1:00:49

people sometimes think it's the hardest book to

1:00:51

understand, but it's one of the easiest. If

1:00:54

what you're looking for is not like details

1:00:57

on what the meaning of

1:00:59

the third horn and the

1:01:01

fourth beast, I'm exaggerating, but if

1:01:04

what you're looking for is the message, the

1:01:07

message is pretty clear about

1:01:09

Jesus, about righteous

1:01:12

judgment, about God being

1:01:16

with his people, about our responsibility

1:01:18

to witness for him, about prayer, moving

1:01:21

history, the prayers of the

1:01:23

saints rise up to God and boom, these

1:01:25

judgments start. The soul's under

1:01:27

the altar. What are they doing hanging out under

1:01:29

the altar? Well, beneath

1:01:32

the altar was where the blood of sacrifices was

1:01:34

poured out in the Old Testament. So the

1:01:39

blood of the saints who are crying out,

1:01:42

how long the Lord, holy and true, until you

1:01:44

avenge our blood that's been shed on the earth,

1:01:47

crying out for vindication, they

1:01:50

share with the sacrifice lamb in

1:01:53

being sacrificed for the word of God in the

1:01:55

testimony of Jesus. I mean, Revelation

1:01:57

is just bursting with practice.

1:02:01

teaching for us, but a lot of people don't

1:02:03

want to hear it because they're scared of persecution,

1:02:05

they're scared of suffering, but I mean

1:02:08

that's real life. Yeah. And so

1:02:12

much real life for so many people around

1:02:14

the world right now. Pakistan,

1:02:19

Christians, and I'm

1:02:22

not sure when people are gonna be watching

1:02:24

this, but I mean just

1:02:27

last night I was getting a friend

1:02:30

in Pakistan was sending me

1:02:32

video of bulldozers even being brought in

1:02:34

before they were using axes to attack

1:02:37

churches, but I mean this is not

1:02:39

the government. I think

1:02:41

it's not the government. And

1:02:44

sometimes they're using the excuse of you know

1:02:46

this guy in Sweden burned a Quran. The

1:02:48

guy's an atheist. Anyway,

1:02:51

let me not go off that that

1:02:53

rabbit trail and then the other places,

1:02:55

so many places in the world where

1:02:57

Christians are dying for their

1:02:59

faith, where they're losing their homes, becoming

1:03:02

refugees. So

1:03:07

close to my heart, especially my wife having

1:03:09

been a refugee and especially having spent time

1:03:11

in northern Nigeria where thousands

1:03:13

of Christians have been martyred. Is

1:03:18

that where you said you were beaten for sharing

1:03:20

your faith? Did it happen outside of you? It

1:03:23

happened here. It happened in the US and

1:03:26

it happened a couple

1:03:30

times. We're in a small town and one of them was

1:03:32

in a well

1:03:34

one of them it was in a larger town but it kind

1:03:38

of had a

1:03:40

small town feel back then. But

1:03:42

yeah, sharing my faith and

1:03:47

the guy was not happy. And

1:03:51

some people would say, well that's what you get for sharing your faith.

1:03:54

But if people hadn't shared their faith

1:03:57

I wouldn't have heard the gospel. And

1:04:00

if people hadn't shared their faith,

1:04:02

we wouldn't have the gospel today. People hadn't

1:04:04

shed their blood for

1:04:06

sharing the gospel, we wouldn't have it today.

1:04:10

So it's worth it.

1:04:12

Jesus is worth everything. It's worth everything.

1:04:15

And I think it is so prudent for us. I love

1:04:17

that you brought up Nigeria and

1:04:19

Pakistan. It wasn't

1:04:22

until I became Miss East

1:04:24

Maugham that I began always thinking,

1:04:27

what does this mean to Haitians?

1:04:30

Without intending to, I had read the Bible

1:04:32

as an

1:04:35

American, as

1:04:38

a Southern white female

1:04:41

American. And

1:04:44

then he allowed me to become the mom

1:04:46

of this child. I found myself going, how does

1:04:48

this apply in Haiti? How does this apply in

1:04:50

Sudan? How does this apply

1:04:52

in Pakistan? How does this for us to

1:04:55

have hearts that are turned enough to be broken

1:04:58

over what's causing other people to bleed? I

1:05:00

think that's incumbent upon

1:05:03

us as Christ followers, especially today.

1:05:06

The body of Christ as a whole, we

1:05:09

have so much to learn from one another. And

1:05:12

the global church, we all have

1:05:14

so much to learn from one another. We have different

1:05:16

gifts. We have different blessings to give.

1:05:19

And Medin and I were first

1:05:21

engaged, and

1:05:24

I was able to travel to Africa

1:05:26

to spend time with her. We

1:05:30

would have gotten married in Africa, but at that

1:05:32

time, I don't know what it's like now, but

1:05:34

at that time, the wait

1:05:36

for a fiancé visa was supposed to be six

1:05:38

months, and for a marriage visa was

1:05:40

supposed to be 12 months. So

1:05:43

we chose to be engaged and get married

1:05:45

here, which

1:05:47

was quicker. When

1:05:49

we would do devotions together,

1:05:51

I would be

1:05:55

able to give cultural background. We would do

1:05:57

in Genesis, and so I was giving ancient

1:05:59

or eastern background. But

1:06:01

she understood more of the passages

1:06:03

better than I did because,

1:06:06

you know,

1:06:08

with semi-nomadic patriarchs,

1:06:11

well, she came from a small village. She

1:06:14

understood things intuitively and these, you

1:06:17

know, these births like I'm, I

1:06:19

believe in the Bible, but I don't know how these

1:06:22

children are coming out like this where you can tie

1:06:24

something on the way. But she

1:06:26

had been pregnant at mid-wife birth and

1:06:30

she understood those things. I mean, since

1:06:32

then I've read Saranas' Gynecology, a second

1:06:34

century gynecologist, you know, and so I

1:06:37

understand the background from the ancient sources.

1:06:39

But she understood it because she'd been

1:06:41

there, you know, and so there

1:06:45

are things that like

1:06:48

pre-industrial rural

1:06:52

culture may understand better

1:06:55

than us intuitively. One

1:06:59

reason I think we need the background more

1:07:01

is because our culture is so different. Right,

1:07:03

right. I don't think I got

1:07:06

the significance of Luke

1:07:09

11 and Jesus saying I love all of Luke

1:07:11

11, but when he says you get to call

1:07:13

God dad until the first time I went

1:07:15

to Israel in 1998 and I

1:07:17

saw a beautiful little pumpkin

1:07:20

running toward his daddy going, Abba,

1:07:22

Abba, Abba, and that dad picked

1:07:25

that kid up and I thought all

1:07:27

of a sudden it came to

1:07:29

life for me that Jesus was saying that's how

1:07:31

you get to approach the creator of

1:07:33

the universe. Oh goodness, we

1:07:35

could talk forever. Ali,

1:07:38

what, how do you feel led to?

1:07:40

We will talk forever. I know, I know. I

1:07:43

did have an odd question. And

1:07:46

then we can have to pray and rap and

1:07:48

preach. Okay, preach and pray. You've already been doing

1:07:50

it all. Preach and pray. And then we'll send

1:07:52

them together. Because of your heart

1:07:54

for the global church and just where you guys

1:07:56

were living just now, If

1:07:58

the body of Christ were present, The phone If

1:08:00

I'd okay just go with me. I'm

1:08:03

a little about a drama queen actor

1:08:05

Person inside here is the body of

1:08:07

Christ were personified and kind of the

1:08:09

fourth person of our quartet. What?

1:08:12

Would you say to her lot would

1:08:14

be. Your eggs or tastes

1:08:16

and what would be or hope. And I

1:08:19

guess I am speaking globally of. Course

1:08:21

but to tearing your shirt

1:08:23

at your deep heart for

1:08:25

the church universal. And

1:08:27

is there something that comes to

1:08:30

mind Doctor Keener as an exhortation

1:08:32

as I hope. For

1:08:34

the body of Christ at this time. Love.

1:08:36

One another, Share.

1:08:39

Your resources and.

1:08:44

Know I mean that in

1:08:46

them broadest possible since your

1:08:48

your knowledge. Other

1:08:50

spiritual gifts. On.

1:08:53

Feeding. The Hungry. Working

1:08:56

for for Justice Working

1:08:58

for. The. Logical of

1:09:00

understanding and all those

1:09:02

things, but on us.

1:09:05

And we have so much to learn. I mean,

1:09:07

they have their. The.

1:09:10

Church and sign of because of wanted

1:09:12

the have suffered. Yet

1:09:15

all over the world. But. Love

1:09:18

one another, serve one another,

1:09:21

Which. Gracious Five Thirteen mean

1:09:23

some people say no the wasted service

1:09:25

won't go a Since five it's pretty

1:09:27

clear all of this are called to

1:09:29

serve one another as so whatever your

1:09:31

views on in a gender. I mean

1:09:33

if we're gonna be the Bible with.

1:09:36

But. Some all serve one another

1:09:38

and actually. Even. The seasons

1:09:40

Pfizer mean size, twenty one, submitting to

1:09:43

one another and fear of Christ which

1:09:45

is where you get the verbs. Verse

1:09:47

twenty two, but under duress, so edwards.

1:09:50

Know and love having as they are.

1:09:52

You guys as and love one another

1:09:54

is serve one another. Maintain.

1:09:56

The Unity. Maintain

1:10:00

the bond of unity in

1:10:02

Christ in the spirit in

1:10:05

Ephesians 4 where he says that He

1:10:08

doesn't say get united. He says maintain

1:10:10

it because he's already said in Ephesians

1:10:12

2 That Jesus

1:10:15

made us into one new humanity

1:10:17

one new person what his one

1:10:19

new body By

1:10:22

the cross He gave his

1:10:24

life. He gave his flesh to make us one

1:10:26

body together and So

1:10:29

we should maintain the unity

1:10:31

that he paid that price for Now

1:10:34

unity doesn't mean we agree on every

1:10:36

detail But it's

1:10:39

a unity that's established by the blood of Christ

1:10:42

So that somebody is my brother or

1:10:44

sister in Christ Doesn't

1:10:48

matter what denomination. It doesn't

1:10:50

matter what? ethnicity

1:10:53

or nationality We

1:10:56

have one Lord and if Jesus

1:10:58

is our Lord if Jesus is our

1:11:00

Savior His

1:11:03

body and we

1:11:05

don't want members the body fighting against each

1:11:07

other. That's called cancer We

1:11:10

want we want To

1:11:13

work together to glorify Jesus name we

1:11:16

can disagree on things in love Dialogue

1:11:18

about him try to learn from each other grow but

1:11:23

Love one another serve one another

1:11:25

state unity with one another that

1:11:28

is Front and

1:11:31

center throughout the New Testament. Yeah.

1:11:33

Yeah Dr.

1:11:36

Caner she closes. I am a verbose woman

1:11:38

and I don't have enough words to thank

1:11:40

you There's been an epinee sir for me.

1:11:43

I walk a face. Thank you so much for spending

1:11:45

time with us We're

1:11:48

so excited y'all made the announcement to

1:11:50

BPT we did it to those

1:11:52

of y'all who attended Curricma last April,

1:11:54

but dr. Keener is gonna be with

1:11:56

us at Curricma 24. We

1:11:58

are really excited So we'll tell you

1:12:01

more about that. So you all get to sit

1:12:04

in the dust at his feet and

1:12:06

be a student of this humble

1:12:09

Amazingly godly gift to

1:12:12

the body of Christ But as

1:12:14

you were talking about unity every time

1:12:16

I hear the word unity I think community

1:12:18

that he's he's called us to the

1:12:20

one another's were called to live in

1:12:23

Community and I just thought there's somebody listening

1:12:25

to this and they're in a

1:12:27

in a room by themselves They're in a car by

1:12:30

themselves and they and they

1:12:32

think I don't have disunity because

1:12:34

I don't have anybody to rub shoulders with I

1:12:37

don't have anybody to dialogue much less disagree with

1:12:40

Would you pray for the

1:12:42

men and the women? Who

1:12:45

feel completely alone as they listen to

1:12:47

this would you pray that? obviously

1:12:50

first of all, they'd have Union

1:12:52

with Christ, but that somebody

1:12:54

with skin on would Would

1:12:57

come next to them that they would have

1:13:00

relationship Father

1:13:05

Father thank you so much that

1:13:07

you initiated relationship with

1:13:09

us that We

1:13:12

had sundered our relationship with you by sin.

1:13:14

We'd sundered our relationship with

1:13:16

others by sin Others have

1:13:18

sundered their relationship with us by sin But

1:13:21

God you reached out to us and

1:13:24

you are available to every

1:13:26

one of us That

1:13:29

all we have to do is Confess

1:13:32

to you our need for you You

1:13:35

made the way for us to come to you by

1:13:37

the death of your own son and

1:13:39

the resurrection of your own son And

1:13:42

the exaltation of your own son to your

1:13:44

right hand We

1:13:48

as part of the body of Christ we As

1:13:53

part of the body of Christ we dwell in your presence Whether

1:13:56

we recognize it or not, so we may as well recognize it Thank

1:14:00

you God for making

1:14:03

this relationship available to us. If

1:14:06

we have nobody else in the world, but we have you,

1:14:08

we have what we

1:14:10

need. But you also said, and Genesis, it's

1:14:12

not good for a man to be alone.

1:14:15

In fact, it's not good for us to be alone. You

1:14:18

made us to be with others.

1:14:22

And so we

1:14:24

pray that you'll make us holy the body

1:14:26

of Christ. Make us holy

1:14:28

what you've called us to be for

1:14:32

one another, brothers and

1:14:34

sisters. And Lord, for

1:14:36

those who are alone, and Lord,

1:14:40

even in countries where it's not safe to

1:14:43

meet with other Christians openly,

1:14:46

God, we pray that you will make

1:14:48

the way for people to

1:14:51

find fellowship and

1:14:53

to feel the unity

1:14:55

of the body of Christ, to

1:14:57

experience your goodness

1:15:00

through one another as

1:15:02

well as directly from you. You've

1:15:08

given us a context of

1:15:12

all the saints who've gone before

1:15:15

us, all the people who love

1:15:17

you, who've lived in generations past, that

1:15:19

we'll be united with forever. And

1:15:22

you've also given us a context

1:15:27

with our brothers and sisters all

1:15:29

around the world. And

1:15:33

no testing comes to

1:15:35

us that isn't

1:15:37

common to others. So

1:15:41

Lord, for anybody who

1:15:43

feels alone, I

1:15:45

pray that they will experience

1:15:48

your presence. You

1:15:51

know how it feels to be alone, Lord, when

1:15:54

all your disciples forsook you and

1:15:56

fled and

1:15:59

you went to the church. cross for

1:16:02

us alone. And

1:16:04

even when you felt forsaken by

1:16:07

your father and cried out,

1:16:09

my God, my God, why have

1:16:11

you forsaken me? You

1:16:17

know how it feels to be alone, but

1:16:20

we will never be alone because

1:16:23

you will never leave us or forsake us. Let

1:16:27

each person experience that now. Make

1:16:31

us please under what you have called us to be.

1:16:35

Make us for one another the

1:16:38

gifts that you have called us to

1:16:40

be because we need one

1:16:42

another as diverse

1:16:45

expressions of

1:16:48

different aspects of your work so

1:16:51

that we can experience you more fully. We

1:16:55

ask you these things. Father,

1:16:57

we ask you these things in the name of

1:16:59

your Son, Jesus Christ,

1:17:02

our Lord and Savior, whom

1:17:04

you sent to bring us to yourself. Amen.

1:17:09

Amen. Good, great.

1:17:15

Thank you, Dr. King. Thank you, Dr. Fumi.

1:17:24

Allie and I are so glad, so grateful

1:17:26

you chose to hang out on the porch

1:17:28

with us today. And we

1:17:30

hope you learned something, but knowledge

1:17:32

about God pales next to intimacy

1:17:35

with Jesus. Y'all. So we hope

1:17:37

you spend a lot more time

1:17:39

lingering in his presence, leaning into his

1:17:42

embrace and listening to the

1:17:44

lyrics of delight. He promises to

1:17:46

sing over us in Zephaniah. Then you

1:17:48

do listening to podcasts. That being said,

1:17:50

we'll be both honored and tickled if

1:17:53

you choose to join us again next

1:17:55

week for Back Porch Theology.