1:37

Lee Neen hi , welcome to Live

1:39

Like it's True .

1:40

Well , hey , sheena , it's so fun to be with

1:42

you today . My co-author buddy .

1:45

This is a super fun interview . It's

1:47

going to be different than our typical interview

1:49

. We're kicking off a new series . Today

1:51

we're talking about comparison

1:54

, and so you and I

1:56

have a new book coming out this month

1:58

, april , called Comparison

2:00

Girl 14s . I cannot be more excited

2:02

about it .

2:03

I am really excited . It's

2:06

been a little bit like giving birth , hasn't

2:08

it , sheena ? It just like takes

2:10

a while to get here , and now we're

2:12

to this point and super excited

2:14

for girls everywhere to get this in their hands

2:17

.

2:17

This one feels a little longer than birth

2:19

, though I feel like we've been . I'm glad

2:22

it doesn't take , you know , two years to birth

2:24

a baby , so this one's Isn't

2:26

it elephants that just ate for two

2:28

years or something ?

2:29

I just like an elephant book . This

2:32

is an elephant . Yes , and you know

2:34

, all good things require extra

2:36

effort , and that has surely been true with

2:39

Comparison Girl 14s . So

2:41

true , yes .

2:42

So , all right , I just want our friends here

2:44

I live , like it's true to kind of get the

2:46

back story and find

2:48

out a little bit about how you and

2:50

I connected for this project . So can

2:53

you remember how we first met , lee ?

2:58

I saw this question , sheena

3:00

, and I was like I think

3:02

we probably met through our friend Cindy Boltima

3:04

. But the

3:06

time that I remember you the

3:08

most was when I was teaching

3:11

at True Woman and you came

3:13

up and reintroduced yourself . So

3:16

I remember reconnecting at

3:18

True Woman and you came in and said

3:20

hey , I just want you to know , I'm praying for you and I was

3:22

like I know I should know her , but

3:24

I don't know her yet . So that just was

3:26

such a great first impression and , yeah

3:29

, I just loved you ever since .

3:30

That's really cool . I don't I mean

3:33

that that one is not . I remember

3:35

talking with you in a bathroom . You

3:38

know we're all good . Friendships start , you know

3:40

, in the girls room , but

3:43

at the Speak Up conference . And just remember like

3:45

thinking so highly of you right from the beginning . So

3:49

tell us a little bit about your

3:51

family and your ministry . Just give

3:53

us a snapshot of who you are and what you do .

3:55

Well , I live here in

3:57

West Michigan with you . We're about

3:59

an hour and a half apart . I live at a Christian

4:01

camp and conference center with my husband

4:04

here in

4:06

Grace Adventures Grace Adventures yes

4:09

, so we moved here four years

4:11

ago , but more than that

4:13

, I'm a mom to four . I

4:16

am super grateful

4:18

to be a mom , but also a wife and

4:20

a speaker Bible teacher . So

4:23

it's been just a joy and delight

4:25

to be in full time ministry for

4:27

the last 10 years , and most

4:29

recently I'm a missionary with an organization

4:31

called Live Global , working on a

4:34

global women's ministry , and that

4:36

is , as you well know . One of the

4:38

greatest joys of my life is the

4:40

chance to equip women

4:43

all over the world with God's

4:45

word and how it changes lives .

4:48

Yeah , you know , you and my friend Christy

4:50

, you're both kind of doing similar things and

4:52

my biggest challenge with the both

4:54

of you is like , OK , where in the world is Lee or where in the

4:57

world is Christy ? Like you are just

4:59

globetrotting and doing all these amazing things

5:01

. So , and does

5:04

it give you a little more perspective when you come back home after

5:07

being worldwide and seeing what God's doing and

5:10

I don't know ?

5:11

you know , it dawned on me I don't

5:13

know . I probably started

5:15

ministry internationally about eight

5:17

years ago now , and we first started working

5:19

in Haiti , and the thing

5:21

that the Lord really convinced

5:23

or convicted me of is that I

5:27

needed to learn from the women that I would be meeting

5:29

Because

5:31

, to be real honest , I

5:33

don't have to need God for anything

5:35

in my day . You

5:38

know , we're pretty self-sufficient people here in the United States

5:40

, and , although

5:43

I know I need Jesus for my salvation

5:45

, really I

5:48

can hide from my kids that we need anything at all

5:50

, and

5:52

they live day to day relying

5:55

on the Heavenly Father . And

5:57

so it was that spirit

5:59

of knowing that I had a lot to learn that God just really began

6:04

to teach me that the things that were universal

6:06

which you already know , shannon are the

6:09

things that are found in the Word of God . Like

6:13

the only thing that I really can hand a woman who is watching

6:15

her child starve

6:17

to death is the Word of God and the hope of heaven

6:20

that we have in Jesus . And

6:23

those are the things that I want to teach

6:25

, because cultural truths , like the truths that are true in women's

6:27

ministry here in the United States , don't always

6:29

apply . They don't

6:32

work , you know , and

6:35

so I can't say to my friend

6:37

you need to be a stay-at-home mom when she won't be able to feed her kids

6:39

. If she does that , on the

6:41

other hand , I can talk to her about

6:43

what it means to be a stay-at-home mom , or about what it means to

6:45

be a godly wife and a mom . And so , yeah

6:47

, shannon , you already know that

6:49

it's the Word of God that transforms lives

6:51

. It isn't my opinion , and so

6:54

, yes , going overseas

6:56

shapes everything . As a matter of fact , as

6:58

you well know , a lot

7:00

of our book was written in the Dominican Republic

7:02

, so I will remember

7:05

forever sitting on a couch in

7:07

Dominican Republic and face

7:09

timing and thinking Lord , you're going to

7:11

have to do this because we're thousands

7:13

of miles away from here , From each other .

7:15

Yeah , no , it was . That was really fun

7:17

to just have that perspective

7:20

kind of overshadowing the writing process

7:22

of the new book . So , backing

7:24

up to 2020 , that's

7:27

when Comparison Girl , the

7:29

original version , came out

7:31

for girls

7:33

of all ages I should say that first book

7:35

and you were one of my endorsers for

7:37

that book . The subtitle is Lessons from

7:39

Jesus on Me Free Living in a Measure Up

7:42

World , and so I just like

7:44

went and found your endorsement

7:47

. Can I read it real quick ?

7:49

Oh , I love that .

7:50

You said I am a

7:52

Comparison Girl . I never wanted to play

7:55

the end play into the enemy's

7:57

plan for dismantling my

7:59

contentment and peace , and I suspect that

8:01

you don't want to either . So it's high time

8:03

we cast aside our measuring mentality

8:05

and adopt a new way . Shannon and

8:07

Popkin expertly walks us through the

8:09

markers and the mistakes of this measure up

8:11

world and gently points us to a better

8:13

way . With humor

8:16

and brutal honesty , shannon fights

8:18

for her reader's hearts with

8:20

biblical wisdom , humility and truth . Now

8:22

, I don't like to play favorites , you know , with

8:24

endorsements , but that one

8:26

, I think , was my favorite . It was just so

8:29

helpful and so kind

8:31

and so I really , really appreciate

8:33

you . You know , championing this

8:35

book from the beginning .

8:37

Shannon , when you called and said , will

8:39

you do an endorsement for

8:41

Comparison Girl ? I actually thought

8:43

to myself I actually

8:45

am pretty secure as a human

8:48

being , like measuring , comparing

8:50

, that's not really my issue , holy

8:53

cats . I found myself in

8:55

the middle of this book going , oh

8:59

, I am a Comparison

9:01

Girl and , as I'm sure we'll

9:03

talk about it was really . It

9:06

was a real new thought process that

9:08

there are a couple of different ways to measure

9:11

and I was very guilty of one

9:13

way of measuring . And

9:15

you know , as we work through

9:17

this process together , quite often

9:19

you and I approach things from the exact

9:22

opposite perspective and

9:25

that has just been so fun to

9:27

work through . But I just was so grateful for

9:29

what Comparison Girl taught me

9:31

and , as I recall

9:33

, I wrote that endorsement , sent

9:36

it to you and then called and said you have to make this a

9:38

teen book .

9:39

You did , yeah , I think . Yeah

9:41

, I don't remember if it's a phone conversation or

9:43

a text , but at first I was like , oh , haha

9:46

, you know , it's sort of like when you're giving birth

9:48

you're in , someone mentions like

9:50

you should have another one too , right , and so

9:52

it just was not not something

9:55

I really thought deeply about , but I remember

9:57

having you as a guest when

10:00

we launched the book and

10:03

then , just I don't know , that

10:06

thought about a teen book was in the

10:08

back of my mind and I would be speaking

10:10

at different events and inevitably

10:13

, when there was a Q&A at the end , someone

10:16

would raise their hand and say , hey , when is the teen

10:18

book coming out ? And I

10:20

would say , oh , yeah , we need that , don't

10:22

we ? And then

10:25

it just kept happening over and over

10:27

, and I would talk to moms who were in tears

10:29

over their teens , saying

10:32

I need this message , but she does too

10:34

. She really needs this . How do I give it to

10:36

her ? And grandmas who are so concerned

10:39

about their young girls , their

10:41

granddaughters and youth leaders

10:43

, and I just kept hearing it from everywhere

10:46

, every different angle , and

10:50

so I mean I

10:52

think , yeah , this is one of the good works that God

10:54

had prepared in advance for you

10:57

and me to do together , so I'm

10:59

really glad you planted the seed .

11:01

Well , as I recall , you said in that

11:03

moment ha ha ha , I don't write for teens

11:05

, do you wanna do that ? And I was like no

11:08

. I was in the middle of launching my own

11:10

book and I was like no

11:12

, like you . I was like we're both giving birth

11:14

right now . We're not doing that . And then God

11:16

just would not let go of

11:18

either one of us , and I'm so

11:21

grateful now .

11:22

Yeah , yeah , me too . So

11:25

let me just take a quick minute in case

11:27

somebody hasn't read Comparison Girl , the

11:29

first book , and just tell

11:31

about how , just

11:33

the framework for that book , and then we'll talk about

11:35

how the teen one is different and maybe

11:39

what your appetite for both of them . If you have

11:41

a teen in your life , we'd love for you to get Comparison

11:43

Girl , we'd love for you to get the teen book too

11:45

. But Comparison Girl , you

11:48

know , I just I

11:50

remember as a young mom feeling

11:53

so you

11:56

know , just this disparity between the

11:58

world telling me that what I was doing

12:00

did not matter . You know , as I'm wiping

12:03

noses and bottoms and crumbs right

12:05

and just feeling like ugh , I

12:08

really enjoyed being a mom , but I felt

12:10

that tension , you know , that pressure

12:12

that like this isn't , this is not what the

12:14

world says is worthwhile , and

12:18

yet noticing in scripture , like

12:20

feeling the I don't know

12:22

, just being drawn to the wisdom of

12:24

Jesus saying that the greatest is the servant

12:26

, being drawn to

12:28

that message , and just noticing that disparity

12:30

and wanting more of that . And so this

12:34

comparison is not something that

12:36

has only plagued me in my

12:38

young motherhood days or in my

12:40

teenage days or childhood . It's

12:42

kind of been in all the

12:45

different ages and stages of my life , I

12:47

come back like , oh my goodness , I am

12:49

comparing again . You know , now my

12:51

kids are young adults and now I want to compare

12:53

my young adult kids with other moms with

12:56

young adults . Or you know , now I'm an

12:58

author and a speaker and I want to compare myself with

13:00

the other authors and speakers , or you

13:02

know just all the different

13:04

areas of life . I'm tempted

13:06

into looking at things the

13:08

way that the world does . Like you have to measure up

13:10

, you have to get ahead and you should feel ashamed when

13:13

you don't . And yet Jesus

13:15

offers this really me

13:17

free way of looking at

13:19

ourselves and at other people . And

13:21

what I noticed is that whenever

13:24

Jesus was talking with people who were comparing

13:26

and he did a lot of that , you know he was

13:28

he would talk with the disciples and they're

13:30

trying to elbow past each other , or he would talk

13:32

with the Pharisees , who felt like they

13:34

were better than everybody , or he'd talk to the sinners

13:37

, or the you know , the sick people who

13:39

felt marginalized , and consistently

13:41

he would use these pithy upside down

13:43

statements to kind of like , show

13:46

them like this is how things look in the world , but here

13:48

are things in the kingdom , and

13:51

he would say these statements

13:53

like the greatest is the servant , or

13:55

whoever exalts herself will be humbled

13:57

, or whoever puts herself last

13:59

will be first in the kingdom . And

14:02

so I thought that was really interesting . And if

14:04

you look at those different upside down statements

14:07

, like the vast majority

14:09

of them come on the heels of someone

14:11

comparing themselves . So there's something

14:14

here that helps us

14:16

with comparison . There's something that Jesus

14:18

is trying to show us , like he's trying to say

14:20

my kingdom is different , it's not like here

14:22

in the world , and I've often

14:24

we put this in the teen book too an illustration

14:27

of the game Uno . You know , if you

14:29

and me were playing Uno and

14:31

you noticed I'm like trying to fill my hand

14:33

with cards , like you know , oh

14:36

yes , draw four more cards

14:38

for me . You , being the good

14:40

friend that you are , lee , you would lean over and say um

14:42

, shannon , did you know that the goal of Uno is

14:44

not to have more but to have less ? I think

14:46

that's kind of what Jesus is doing here . He's

14:49

like in my kingdom it doesn't work like

14:51

that . You know , it's just this

14:53

thing that you're after , these goals you're setting

14:55

or this angst you're feeling

14:57

. It does not have anything to do with my kingdom

14:59

. So there's just all this . This me

15:02

free freedom . So with the original

15:04

comparison girl , it's a study , a

15:06

Bible study , and I looked at five

15:08

different ways that we compare comparing

15:10

sin , which I

15:13

didn't think that would necessarily

15:15

be one that people wanted to hear a lot about

15:17

, but turns out like man over

15:19

and over . That is the one that people

15:22

say they want to flip to first . Comparing sin , comparing

15:26

wealth , comparing appearances , comparing

15:28

ministries and comparing status

15:31

, and so that's kind of what made

15:33

up that original book . What was your favorite chapter

15:35

in the original book , lee ?

15:38

This was really hard for me to just pick

15:40

one , sheena , but I think the one

15:42

that really sat me back on my

15:44

heels was the comparing

15:47

wealth chapter , and

15:49

probably large in

15:51

part due to international travel

15:53

as well . Comparing

15:56

sin was a big deal to me , because

15:59

I think I measure . I

16:02

don't always measure myself as far

16:04

as like well , at least I'm not a sinner like you

16:07

, I don't . I

16:09

don't think that that

16:11

is something that I often

16:14

struggle with , but

16:16

what I did find was

16:18

that comparing down

16:21

at someone over

16:23

the course of all five of

16:25

those that you pointed out , that was more

16:27

often what I was doing . So rather

16:30

than looking at someone else and feeling inferior

16:32

sort of

16:35

, actually I was feeling superior

16:38

, and that is pride

16:40

is just as offensive to the Lord

16:42

, definitely more so

16:44

in certain cases , and

16:47

so I just really found myself

16:49

quite humbled by the original

16:51

book , and I wish you could

16:54

all see I mean my book

16:56

is falling apart at this point

16:58

because we spent so much time in the

17:00

original . And , sheena , what has been

17:02

really great is that anymore I

17:04

can't figure out if you said something

17:06

or if I said something . So

17:08

it's so fun and it's probably because

17:10

Jesus said it first , right , well

17:13

, totally . But just you know

17:15

, having camped out in this I

17:17

I really see that you focused

17:19

on what God says about

17:22

this , and so I want to align

17:24

with that , even when it's painful

17:26

.

17:27

Yeah , me too . And that . Back

17:29

to the wealth chapter . That is the one

17:31

that I mean . God just broke my

17:34

heart , split it right open . Writing

17:36

that one , I was like wow , I

17:38

did not realize how , how

17:41

much I compare and how

17:43

, how I am just this is

17:45

, this is like it's got its fingers

17:47

in a lot of different areas of life . I

17:50

wrote part of that chapter at Cranhill

17:53

Ranch , which you and I both I

17:55

think you first introduced me as a speaker

17:57

there , and they have this little prayer

17:59

cabin and they let people like

18:01

us go use it and I just remember crying

18:03

out to God in that prayer cabin and

18:05

like this is just undoing me

18:07

, oh my goodness

18:09

. But yeah , and

18:12

me too , lee , the I tend to you know

18:14

it used to be I would compare up and feel

18:16

insecure , feel inadequate . But

18:18

there's this other way of comparing and it's comparing

18:21

down and feeling like this disgust

18:23

toward other people . And if Jesus

18:25

ever called people out on anything , it's that

18:27

right . And so this comparing

18:30

down like that is actually , and especially with

18:32

the area of comparing down with sin , you

18:34

know that

19:26

is wrong . So that

19:29

is a sin to be looking

19:31

down on other people who have sinned less than

19:33

you or you think they have sinned less than

19:35

you . So there's , there

19:37

was a lot that God did in my own heart

19:39

and in our hearts together . You know as

19:41

we , as we talked through this topic

19:44

, and you

19:46

know as , over the past year

19:48

or so , as we've been writing , whenever I

19:51

talk about the

19:53

you know comparison . And now

19:55

when that question comes up , when will there be a teen

19:57

book ? And I say , oh , it's coming in April . Like

19:59

people have literally applauded , like audiences

20:02

just break out and applause , because we know

20:04

that teens struggle with comparison

20:06

. We see it , we see it in their lives , we

20:08

see it . It's just so obvious . Like

20:10

there will be a little

20:13

girl . It'll just be like overnight she

20:15

goes from wearing sweatpants , her

20:17

hair pulled back in a ponytail , just

20:19

happy as can be happy , go lucky to being

20:21

like . Overnight she's wearing

20:23

makeup and like tight , you

20:26

know jeans and trying so

20:28

hard to fit in and just feel it . You

20:30

can just see it in her eyes and it's like , oh , my

20:32

goodness , we're losing her . We're losing

20:34

her , you know she's losing her her footing

20:37

. And how do we , how do we get to

20:39

her ? Like , what , what can we do ? How can we help

20:41

her see the truth ? So

20:43

, like , what about ? That stirs

20:45

your heart , lee ? Like , why did you want

20:47

to write this teen book ?

20:49

Well , like you , I

20:51

have experienced

20:53

a moment where I

20:56

felt devastatingly

20:58

inferior , and I was

21:00

aware of it , and a lot of

21:02

the wounding that

21:04

I have actually comes from

21:06

not accepting Christ until I was 17

21:09

. And so I

21:11

had a lot of catching up to do when

21:13

I did become a believer

21:16

and the church

21:18

girls around me had

21:20

an understanding among them that I

21:22

did not have . I did not understand

21:25

, like about modesty or

21:27

interacting with boys or whatever Like

21:29

. Those were not the same . We were

21:32

not taught the same messages in

21:34

our homes growing up , and

21:36

so the place that

21:38

became the most difficult for me

21:40

to be in , who I was

21:43

, was at church , and I

21:45

knew that wasn't the way it

21:47

was supposed to be , and

21:49

so , as I was reading comparison

21:51

girl , I kept thinking back to those moments

21:54

where I was like , gee , I wish I'd

21:56

heard this , gee

21:58

, I wish I'd known . Gee , I wish the girls

22:00

in my youth group had heard this . You know , because

22:02

, yeah , exactly Will

22:05

you ? Will you tell the story of the bikini

22:07

only if you promise to tell the story

22:09

about the pink rollers .

22:12

Okay , we'll see , we'll see . But , yeah , tell

22:14

that story . I just think it's . Yeah , it's

22:16

such a painful story , but go ahead .

22:18

I went to a young life camp and

22:20

I it was so great because they

22:23

were as young , life is so

22:25

sensitive to seeking

22:27

teenagers and

22:29

I went to a pool one day

22:32

, came back , you know , I had this

22:34

like super cute blue

22:36

and green string

22:39

bikini and you know

22:41

like more of my rump

22:43

was covered than

22:45

you know string bikinis

22:47

today . But I looked cute

22:50

. We had gone to the store , my mom

22:52

told me I look cute and so

22:54

I came out of the pool , was

22:56

going back to change clothes and

22:59

left my bikini on the ground

23:01

after , you know

23:03

, changing and cleaning up . And my girlfriend

23:05

came up to me later

23:08

and was like girls are talking about

23:10

you because of what you wore

23:12

and they say that you're not modest

23:14

. They say that you're just trying to get boys attention

23:17

, like you really shouldn't wear that

23:19

anymore . And , shannon , I

23:21

had no idea . Like first

23:24

of all I'm not even sure I knew what immodest

23:26

was , but like my mom

23:28

had told me I looked good , you

23:30

know . So to get there and feel so

23:32

ashamed but not know

23:35

why was just humiliating

23:37

. It still makes me cringe thinking about it .

23:39

Well , and these ideas were imposed on you

23:42

. You weren't trying

23:44

to garner attention

23:46

or you know this was . This was just all

23:48

you knew . Like you had no other swimsuit

23:51

right , like it would never occurred

23:53

to you to wear something .

23:54

Yeah it wasn't like , should I wear my one piece

23:56

today or should I wear my bikini ? It just

23:58

wasn't like that , you know , like I

24:01

just had two pieces and I

24:03

didn't think that . I mean , if somebody had

24:05

said , would you put a t-shirt on over ? That I've

24:07

been like what ? Why ? Like that's

24:09

so gross , like Velcro

24:11

, you know , in the water , like I just had

24:13

no frame of reference , why

24:15

that might not be okay . And

24:18

so it took me a long

24:20

time , which you know to recover

24:23

from that incident . Four

24:25

years till I really felt

24:27

comfortable to give my life

24:29

to Christ and allow my life to begin to

24:32

change . So that was my comparison

24:34

wake up call , really .

24:36

Yeah , that's , that's so

24:38

hard . And I would have been the

24:40

friend who would have come to you like that

24:43

, because I never had

24:45

a two piece . As far as I can remember . I

24:47

you know , I was the girl who

24:49

was raised in the very conservative

24:51

church group and I

24:54

would have felt like , yeah , I was

24:56

being a good friend to come and tell you that . Yeah . And

24:59

so this is man , this is what

25:01

our girls are facing on

25:03

the regular and

25:06

and you know , we're not trying to impose like what's

25:08

right or wrong here . We're just like lifting up

25:10

, like this is , this is something we've

25:13

all I'm sure our

25:16

listeners are like they can identify with experiencing . I

25:19

have my own camp version , which you lit a camp story . So

25:21

I was . I went to sixth grade camp

25:23

and our teacher told us it was going to be the best weekend

25:26

of our life . It was not the best weekend

25:28

of my life . It was like all of the different

25:30

elementary schools were coming together for sixth grade

25:32

camp and I

25:34

was in a cabin . I'm sure there were some girls

25:36

from my school , I just don't remember who they were . My

25:39

best friend , kath , was in a different cabin and

25:42

so I'm in this group with all of these girls who were wearing

25:45

cute clothes and they had the cute hair and they

25:47

were talking about the cute boys and

25:50

I was like just watching them , thinking like , oh my goodness , I am

25:52

out of it . I

25:54

just came to camp like I would have to go to the gym

25:56

. I would . I just came to camp like I

25:58

would always go to camp , just ready to

26:00

have fun , go swimming and , you know

26:02

, do all the fun camp things that

26:04

we did . Well , I remember , before bed

26:06

, one of the really super

26:09

cute girls . Her name's Kim and she's given

26:11

me permission to share this story

26:13

. She's such a sweet person

26:15

, but she and she was just adorable back

26:17

then . You know , she had these dimples and like

26:19

thick dark eyelashes and and

26:22

this thick blonde hair

26:24

. And so she's talking to

26:26

her girlfriends and she's like it is way better

26:28

to take take my shower at night . They

26:30

all agree way better to take your shower at night . And I'm

26:32

like , well , I wasn't planning to take a shower

26:34

at all . This was , you know

26:38

, but I , you know , I'm just watching

26:40

with interest . They all go off to take their showers

26:42

. Then they come back and I

26:45

watch Kim roll her hair up

26:47

in these pink sponge rollers . So apparently

26:49

that's why it's better to take your your shower

26:52

at night . And I'd never seen these . Did you ever have

26:54

pink spongulars ?

26:55

Um , my pink

26:57

sponge rollers turned out about

27:00

like yours , so go ahead , carry

27:02

on , did it ?

27:03

Okay . So hers

27:05

was like this . When she

27:07

pulled those out in the morning , it was this thing of

27:09

beauty . I mean , she had these big bouncy

27:12

curls . I was like , oh , my word

27:14

, I was mesmerized . But

27:16

um , you know , I just I just observed

27:18

this whole thing unfolding and I just kind of felt

27:20

myself retreating into the corner and

27:22

in my little cabin , feeling

27:24

like I have clearly missed the

27:27

memo . I do not know what I'm

27:29

doing here . I got to go home , I've got to reinvent

27:31

myself , and so , like , the

27:33

first order of business was the pink sponge rollers . I

27:35

thought , okay , here is the , the secret

27:38

to enviable beauty . You have to get yourself some of those

27:40

. So I asked my mom , she got them

27:42

. I did it , just like him , you know , took

27:44

my shower at night , I rolled my hair up

27:46

, I went to bed , I pulled them out , I

27:49

ran to the mirror and this time

27:51

I mean , I like like gasped it , not

27:54

because it was a thing of beauty , it was like whoo

27:56

, I looked like I had been electrocuted . It

27:59

was , it was a sight to see . Um

28:02

, but I just remember this was

28:04

the time in my life where I went to camp

28:06

, this happy , go , lucky , carefree

28:08

little girl , and I came

28:10

home with this sick to my stomach

28:12

, inadequacy , like I have got to figure

28:15

this out , like , come on , shannon , we

28:17

got to get this thing , you know , get ourselves together

28:19

. And it's like I entered the

28:21

world of comparison and it's

28:23

a dark place and our enemy

28:26

, I think . Really praise on girls

28:28

at this age , when they're

28:30

just starting to notice like , oh , there

28:32

are things , there are ways that

28:35

people are measuring and I not

28:37

only do I have to be aware of them , I've got

28:39

to figure out how do I measure up , how

28:41

do I get ahead , how do I keep up with everybody else

28:43

and how do I not be left behind ? Or

28:46

, if they can't , or

28:48

there's just , it's not an option . Then

28:51

there's this , oh , this shame . Like

28:53

I'm just going to retreat to the shadows because

28:55

I don't measure it , because I can't , I

28:58

don't know how , or I don't have the resources

29:00

, my hair won't do what her hair

29:02

is doing , I can't go to the store and buy

29:04

the clothes she's wearing . I mean , I

29:06

just I guess I'm just stuck , um

29:09

and so , man , our heart just aches

29:11

for girls to know the truth

29:13

, so , like if you had

29:15

to boil it down to why

29:17

is the message of the gospel helpful , though

29:20

you know the things that Jesus taught . Why

29:22

is it helpful for girls who are comparing ?

29:25

Well , jesus becomes

29:27

the satisfaction

29:30

of all things for

29:32

us . You know , like there's

29:34

no need to compare up

29:36

or down , because he

29:39

has done everything . And

29:41

, as we both

29:44

know , if Jesus were

29:46

to have a measuring cup in his hands , his

29:50

measuring cup would be filled

29:52

with everything good , everything kind . I mean , he's

29:54

so limitless , he's so

29:56

good and perfect

29:59

and beautiful and wise and all

30:01

those things that we want to be . And

30:04

Jesus emptied himself

30:07

for us and

30:09

he gave all

30:11

so that we might have a

30:14

right relationship with God . And he prioritizes

30:17

that relationship with the heavenly Father

30:19

and says this is the primary

30:21

problem in your life is your

30:23

separation from the heavenly Father . It's

30:25

not you know how many likes on Instagram

30:27

. It's not if you have a boyfriend

30:30

. It's not what people say about you when you're not in

30:32

the room . It's if you have

30:34

a relationship with the heavenly Father . This world

30:36

is not all there is , and

30:38

so if we separate

30:41

the gospel from living

30:43

, then we are going to live a very

30:45

sad existence . And I just think Jesus

30:47

knew , he just knew . And

30:49

he , shannon , was

30:52

judged . I mean , he was marginalized

30:55

, he was mistreated , and

30:57

so I think he can fellowship with

30:59

a girl in the middle of all

31:01

of those things too .

31:03

Yeah , so true . You're kind of alluding

31:05

to this imagery that we use both in

31:07

the first book and the teen book , of this

31:09

measuring cup . You know , we say picture

31:11

your life , this measuring cup filled

31:13

with all the things that make you you . You

31:16

know your , your beauty , your talents

31:19

, your family , your

31:21

wealth , all of your resources

31:23

kind of mingled together . And what we want to do is

31:25

take our cup and put it next to somebody else's and

31:28

always be measuring and always be asking

31:30

how do I , you know , how do I compare it to her

31:32

? And , you know , put our picture next

31:34

to hers or our family next to hers

31:36

or whatever it is . And that

31:39

is the , that's the enemy's idea for us

31:41

, right , that is , jealousy

31:44

and selfish ambition are tied to

31:46

the wisdom of this world . James , chapter

32:45

four , says if you have bitter jealousy or

32:47

selfish ambition in your heart , don't

32:49

boast and be false to the truth . This is not

32:52

the wisdom that comes from above , but is earthly

32:54

, unspiritual and demonic . Demonic

32:57

, like that's . It's part of this , our enemy's

32:59

idea against us . And

33:02

so , like the two things that that that

33:04

verse mentions are bitter jealousy

33:06

and selfish ambition . Bitter jealousy

33:09

is when I look over at your cup and you

33:11

have more selfish ambition

33:13

is when I want to make my cup look like I

33:15

have more . And like you just said

33:17

, jesus , if he had a cup it'd be the biggest

33:20

one and be most full . And what

33:22

did he do with his cup ? Right , he

33:24

came . Philippians two says he

33:26

came and he emptied himself . I

33:28

love those verses . They also say do nothing

33:30

out of selfish ambition or vain conceit , but

33:33

in humility , consider

33:35

others more important

33:37

, more significant than yourselves . Have

33:39

the mind that is yours in Christ Jesus . And

33:42

what was his mindset ? What did he

33:44

think about ? And it says that he

33:46

did not consider equality with

33:48

God a thing to be grasped . So equality

33:50

, that's a measuring word , right ? So

33:53

even though Jesus was God , he

33:55

did not come to this earth with the mindset

33:57

of I want to measure up to God , I want

33:59

everyone to know that I'm God , I want

34:01

them to worship me wherever I go . That

34:03

was not his mindset . You know , the verses

34:06

say he did not count equality with God

34:08

a thing to be grasped , but he

34:10

emptied himself and made himself

34:12

nothing . He poured

34:14

his life out . First of all , he became

34:16

a baby . You know , he talked all

34:19

of his greatness into little embryonic

34:21

form . And he

34:24

became a baby and he grew up as

34:26

a human . God became a human

34:28

, and then he took

34:30

all of his resources , all

34:33

you know , his power , his wisdom

34:35

, his mental

34:38

aptitudes , and he

34:40

gave it all up . He poured

34:42

his life out . He chose the cross . If

34:46

he had not been okay with it , they could

34:48

not have put him on that cross . So he chose

34:51

all of that for us , and that

34:53

is what frees us from the

34:56

entrapment of this world

34:59

. That's what sets us free in the beginning

35:01

, but it's also like you just said the gospel

35:03

is not just what saves us in

35:06

the moment that we become saved . It's

35:08

like it saves us for the rest of our life , because

35:10

it saves us from this whole world

35:12

system . We choose

35:15

to be disciples , not just saved by

35:17

Jesus , but followers of Jesus , and we

35:19

wanna live like he lives . We

35:22

want to let his

35:24

words be influencing

35:26

us , and so you

35:29

and I , we have this dream for teen girls . You

35:31

know we're like . We have this picture

35:34

of them walking into a room and

35:36

having the words of Jesus in

35:39

the back of their minds , like helping

35:41

them to see who they are and helping

35:43

them to look at each other differently . So

35:45

paint that scene for us . Lee , a girl

35:48

who has this me free

35:50

mindset of Jesus ? Walks into a room , and how

35:52

is it different for her ?

35:54

Well , she and I , we both know that most

35:56

women walk into a room and assume they

35:58

aren't welcome in the room that they walk

36:00

into , and so that happens from

36:02

the time that the littlest girls . And

36:05

so they walk in . It's like they are

36:07

holding those little makeup compacts

36:09

, you know the kind that press powder comes

36:11

in and they're looking in

36:14

their little mirror and they're saying am I

36:16

okay ? Am I okay ? Like , do I look

36:18

good ? Am I enough ? Am I

36:20

too much ? And you and I

36:22

have done this . We've walked into a room like that , so

36:25

worried , like am I really invited

36:27

? Am I gonna have someone to sit with ? But

36:29

what we want is

36:32

for those words to be rolling in

36:34

the back of her head of Jesus , this

36:36

assurance that she is who

36:38

she was created to be , that she

36:40

belongs to him , that she's accepted

36:43

and loved . And instead of

36:45

looking down at that little pocket size

36:47

mirror , she's looking up at all

36:49

the other people in the room . And

36:51

if most of the women and

36:53

girls are looking down , then

36:56

the most powerful and influential

36:58

woman in the room is the one

37:00

who's looking up , able to see and

37:02

meet the needs of others . And so you

37:04

and I just cannot quit that vision that

37:07

we would raise up a generation

37:09

of girls who are looking up to

37:11

encourage and equip

37:14

and evangelize

37:16

, really a new generation

37:18

of Christ followers , because they are not

37:21

stuck in the comparison game .

37:23

It's so true , my

37:25

son was just telling me a

37:27

little like glimpse of his

37:29

time in high school and this is years

37:32

ago , but I I never heard

37:34

this story . He was telling about how his

37:36

lunch table would have like

37:38

rows , like . This was the cool table that

37:40

everybody wanted to be at and there weren't enough

37:42

places around this , the circular

37:44

table , and so people would pull their

37:47

chair up and he called himself a third row kid

37:49

. You know he was never . If he tried

37:51

to be in that inner circle , somebody

37:53

tell him no , you don't belong here . And so he'd

37:55

try . And in scooting as the third row

37:57

, I just thought , oh my goodness , like

38:00

it's . It's just so

38:02

obvious the way that we're being

38:04

influenced by the world and by our enemy

38:06

. You know , satan was full of himself

38:08

. He always wanted to measure up . Jesus emptied himself

38:10

. He didn't worry about that . And , and

38:12

you are exactly right , the girl

38:14

who enters that lunchroom , enters

38:17

that birthday party , enters that Sunday

38:19

school classroom , knowing

38:22

that she is deeply loved

38:24

by the father , that she belongs , that

38:26

she has been

38:28

gifted and entrusted with a life

38:31

right To serve other people with

38:33

, and and is able to get her , you

38:35

know , close that little compact mirror and

38:37

walk into that room saying not , not

38:39

focused on herself at all , but

38:42

free to focus on other people . That's

38:44

the girl with the influence and that's what we

38:46

want . We want for this book

38:49

to be like . Rather than trying

38:51

to scoot my chair up into that third row

38:53

, you know , let's be influencers

38:55

. Let's sit at any table and

38:57

share the influence of

39:00

the gospel . You know , wherever we

39:02

go , I just want to like close by

39:04

talking a little bit about this book . It's going to be

39:06

fun . We haven't seen it yet

39:08

in print as we're speaking today , but

39:12

it's going to be . It's really cute . The cover

39:14

is really fun and cute and

39:16

you put together some really fun quizzes

39:18

. Tell us just about those real quick .

39:20

Well , everybody loves a good quiz

39:22

. Right now , you know the kind that tell

39:24

you what kind of woman you are . So

39:26

what we did was , at the beginning of every chapter

39:28

and really at the beginning of the book , as we asked the

39:31

question are you a comparison girl ? We

39:33

have all these quizzes that girls

39:35

can get on , and actually it would be really

39:37

fun to have a mom take those quizzes too , because

39:39

you and I both found ourselves

39:41

in the middle of the quizzes too , and so we

39:44

just are trying to get them thinking before

39:46

every chapter begins

39:49

. But really , we wanted them to engage

39:51

with a pencil in their lesson

39:53

, or a pen glitter pens even

39:55

but we just want them to

39:58

keep moving and , as we both

40:00

well know , this is not a one or two day

40:02

kind of event . This is something that

40:04

we knew . Yes , we would

40:06

love to have them at a conference , but more

40:08

than that , we want them to spend 40

40:11

lessons with us in the middle

40:13

of learning how Jesus

40:15

thinks about them and how

40:17

they can think about themselves and others .

40:19

Yeah , and these online

40:22

quizzes . It'll be anonymous

40:24

when you take the quiz . But we

40:26

wanted them to be able to kind of compare their answers

40:29

, which seems a little bit and

40:32

not not intuitive , you know , counterintuitive

40:35

because we're inviting them to compare

40:37

. But what we want is for them to realize

40:39

, like I'm not alone , you know these , these

40:42

comparison things , these ways that I measure . I'm

40:44

not alone in this way , but

40:46

I don't want to be stuck

40:49

in in . You know these , these

40:51

ways that I have been . So we

40:53

would love for you to come and

40:55

check out comparisongirlcom and

40:58

you can , as a mom , you can take

41:00

the quiz . We have a little place for you to indicate

41:03

that you're not a teen . You're a mom or a leader

41:05

or somebody who loves teens

41:07

, and maybe you're taking it with your teen or on behalf

41:10

of your teen . But we'd love for you to invite

41:12

some teens to take those quizzes too . The

41:15

book should be out in just a few weeks so you

41:17

could have them take it and say hey , you

41:19

know , does this sound like a book you'd like me to get

41:21

for you ? Would you be interested

41:23

in reading some of these chapters after you take the

41:25

quizzes ? You know , does it wet your appetite ? That's

41:28

kind of our design behind the quizzes

41:30

. But before we let you go

41:32

, we just want to give you if

41:35

you are a mom or a grandma or somebody who

41:37

loves teens you've got

41:39

a teen girl in your life and you

41:41

see that she is stuck in

41:43

comparison . Lee , let's just

41:45

we're not going to give them a whole bunch , but I

41:47

want you to pick your favorite message

41:50

as a mom that you can give to

41:52

teens , or as a grandma or a leader what's

41:55

something that you want for

41:57

every teen to know ?

41:59

Well , this is tricky because we've gone

42:01

through a bunch of these , because we are

42:04

going to have the opportunity to teach

42:06

coming up at the Gospel Coalition

42:08

for Women , so we've been working

42:10

on this . But I think

42:13

it's that we can root

42:15

for the other girl , and

42:17

when we do that , it is emptying

42:20

ourselves and it

42:22

takes our eyes off of ourself

42:24

and puts them on others

42:26

. And that's not

42:28

to fake it , but really to

42:31

encourage another girl to be all that

42:33

she can be , to be solidly for her

42:35

, especially

42:37

when we don't click

42:39

. So that means that we're not talking bad about her . And

42:43

just I had this conversation

42:45

with one of my daughters last night . It's when

42:47

we talk about other people when they're

42:49

not in the room , they don't trust

42:52

us , and more often than not then we

42:54

get talked about too , and so

42:56

what would be a better response is

42:58

if we root for our rival and

43:00

hope the best for her .

43:02

Root , root , yes , I love it . Yes , and

43:04

let's be women who do that too

43:06

. Oh , totally . Right

43:08

. Anything we're telling our teens we got to own it

43:10

ourselves . So here's the one I'm going to

43:12

say . I'm going to pick is own

43:15

your different , like , let's teach our girls to own

43:17

their different . You know , god apparently

43:20

loves variety . He made

43:22

us so different . He gave us different

43:24

skin , different hair , different eyes , and

43:27

we are each wonderfully

43:29

made by God . We're made different , and

43:32

so I think that to

43:34

own your different , you kind of have

43:36

to compare , right , but you

43:38

have to compare in a different way , in a

43:40

me free way , in a way that's like I'm

43:42

not comparing , putting any value

43:44

statements on these . I'm just asking , like God , how

43:47

did you make me different ? How am I supposed

43:49

to contribute in a way that's that's

43:51

different ? I have this

43:53

unique blend of

43:55

resources and aptitudes in my measuring

43:57

cup and it's my job to discover

44:00

. How am I supposed to be pouring out

44:02

right ? Because when you tip that measuring cup

44:04

, the lines become irrelevant

44:06

, right ? And so we want to teach

44:08

our girls own your different , figure out , how

44:11

are you unique , how did God make you different

44:13

? And you know , that's something that we got into

44:15

a little bit in our chapter on femininity , because

44:18

the world says to be feminine you have

44:20

to be a particular kind of girl , a kind

44:22

of feminine , but what we see is that God

44:24

creates a whole bunch

44:26

of variety within the gender

44:29

distinctions of male and female , and so maybe

44:31

you're kind of a tomboy , maybe you're more

44:34

artistic , maybe you're an athlete , maybe

44:36

you are more shy , maybe

44:38

you are the type who has a whole

44:40

bunch of friends , maybe you don't , maybe you just have one

44:43

friend . But own your different

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be who God created you to be , and

44:47

walk into every room saying

44:49

like who can I serve here ? Who

44:51

can I encourage with who I am , with

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what God put in my cup , not

44:55

in her cup ? So that's really just

44:58

a little snippet of what we want to share in this

45:00

book . Lee , thank you so much for being my partner

45:02

and my co-author and my friend in

45:05

this project . It's been such a joy .

45:07

It's been so fun , Shannon . What an honor

45:09

to work together to serve King Jesus

45:11

and our girls .

45:13

Absolutely . So I hope you're

45:15

going to stick around for this whole series . I'm

45:17

not talking with the rest

45:19

of the guests on teen

45:22

kind of content , the

45:24

way that Lee and I have been kind of focused on teen

45:26

content . I'm kind of going back to the original book

45:28

, talking through some of the Bible passages

45:31

, just like how we do on Live , like it's True , we're looking

45:33

at some of these Bible stories but

45:35

it's just going to be such a rich series

45:37

and I don't want you to miss it . So and

45:40

do pick up Comparison Girl 14

45:42

. So you can find it for pre-order

45:44

right now , but it's going to be out in just a few weeks

45:46

and we would love for you to

45:48

put it in the hands of a teen that you love

45:50

. So thank you , Lee , it's been a pleasure

45:52

. Thanks , shannon .