0:08

Welcome to the Living With

0:10

Podcast with Michael Mead Where

0:13

the shifting changing world as

0:15

looked at from a mythic

0:17

perspective. This

0:19

episode begins with the idea that we

0:21

living in flood times again. As

0:24

we face overwhelming changes at most levels

0:26

of life. Day. Luge

0:28

and flood stories have been found

0:30

even in landlocked places, as if

0:32

to make clear that it is not

0:35

simply the literal sees that can

0:37

overflow. But. Also, the psychic

0:39

waters of the unconscious. They

0:41

can overwhelm an individual or

0:44

and entire culture. And.

0:46

The old story of Noah the Great

0:48

Arc serves as a life preserving vessel

0:51

in the midst of great loss and

0:53

worldwide flooding. In

0:55

the Tale of Jonah, the life enhancing

0:57

vessel turns out to be a whale

0:59

which acts as a kind of cosmic

1:02

womb. In. This archetype

1:04

of vision. the belly of the whale

1:06

becomes a place of revelation of the

1:08

mysteries of life. And a

1:11

source of knowledge and wisdom that

1:13

is missing at the surface of

1:15

life. Deluge.

1:29

And flood stories have been

1:31

found all over the earth,

1:33

even in landlocked places. As.

1:36

If to say that it is

1:38

not simply the literal sees that

1:40

are being addressed. But. Also,

1:43

the psychic waters of the

1:45

unconscious that can flood forth

1:47

and overwhelm an individual or

1:49

an entire culture at any

1:51

time. The.

1:53

Primordial Ocean is one of

1:55

the greatest symbols of all

1:58

inclusive change as well. being

2:00

a symbolic womb from which

2:03

all life came. In

2:06

a sense, we are living in

2:08

flood times again, and

2:11

two of the archetypal tales about

2:13

the oceans of change involve

2:15

figures that are best known from

2:18

Bible stories. Both

2:20

the story of Noah and the great

2:22

deluge and the tale of

2:25

Jonah and the whale involve

2:27

great storms at sea, yet

2:30

the nature of the two

2:32

prophetic characters and the

2:35

core message of each of their

2:37

stories differ greatly. When

2:40

not viewed as part of

2:42

religious texts, both

2:44

Jonah and Noah can be

2:46

seen as figures drawn

2:48

from folk tales

2:51

and from oral traditions

2:54

that preceded all written

2:56

texts. Noah

2:59

was a mythical character in ancient

3:01

tales long before he played a

3:03

role in the religious stories. There

3:06

were other ancient characters who

3:08

set sail amidst great floods

3:11

during times of all-encompassing

3:13

change. Some

3:15

say that Utnupishtim, who appeared

3:18

in the ancient tale of Gilgamesh,

3:20

was the first Noah, but

3:23

Manu in the midst of India

3:25

was also a primal predecessor who

3:27

faced an even earlier flood. In

3:31

terms of mythic imagination, Noah

3:34

is one name for

3:36

the ancestral faculty for

3:39

invention and the internal

3:41

instinct for survival that continues

3:43

to inhabit the soul of

3:45

humanity. Old

3:48

Noah in that sense is

3:50

a part of our inner

3:53

nature, an indelible, unsinkable inhabitant

3:55

of the human story and

3:58

part of the mythic and heavenly nature. inheritance

4:00

of every living person. Noah

4:04

learns that a flood is coming

4:06

in a dream in which God

4:08

speaks directly to him, instructing

4:11

him to build an ark and in

4:13

other ways get ready for the great

4:15

deluge. In

4:18

order to follow his calling, Noah

4:20

has to fashion a ship for

4:22

a flood that no one can

4:24

see and that did not appear

4:26

for some time. The

4:29

old dreamer had to hold on

4:31

to his dream and his calling

4:33

to be on the divine mission

4:35

until the time was right for

4:37

change to occur. Noah

4:41

remains true to his dream and

4:43

his calling and when the

4:45

great rains come and the seas begin

4:47

to rise, he is

4:49

ready with his ark and

4:51

the plan to bring representatives

4:54

of all species on

4:56

to the ship in order to

4:58

weather the worldwide storms of change.

5:03

In contrast to Noah, who

5:05

heard the voice of the divine and

5:07

immediately began building a great ark, Jonah

5:10

refused to listen to a

5:13

divine message. In

5:15

his case, God spoke directly

5:17

to him calling upon

5:19

him to go and preach in

5:22

the city of Nineveh where

5:24

people had fallen into various kinds

5:27

of sin. Jonah

5:30

refused to accept the divine mission

5:33

and instead decided to flee

5:35

the dilemma by setting

5:37

sail on an ocean-going

5:39

ship. God

5:42

responds to this refusal by

5:44

summoning a great storm that

5:46

threatens to capsize the ship

5:48

and endanger everyone on board. Like

5:52

Noah, Jonah is on a ship

5:55

in the midst of a great

5:57

storm but unlike Noah,

6:01

Jonah is trying to flee from

6:03

God, from the presence of the

6:05

divine and from his own calling.

6:09

The sailors on the troubled ship

6:11

become anxious when they realize that

6:13

this is no ordinary storm.

6:16

They question who might be to blame

6:18

for the predicament they all find themselves

6:20

in and Jonah admits

6:22

that he is the likely source

6:25

of their troubles because he refused

6:27

a mission from the divine. Amidst

6:32

intense discussions about what to do,

6:35

Jonah suggests that if he is

6:37

thrown overboard, the storm will likely

6:39

cease. At

6:41

first the sailors refuse to do

6:44

this and continue rowing against the

6:46

storm, but when the tempest only

6:48

worsens and all their efforts fail,

6:51

the sailors feel forced to throw

6:53

Jonah overboard in order to save

6:55

their own lives. As

6:59

soon as Jonah falls into

7:01

the dark sea, the storm

7:03

ceases and the waters become

7:05

calm. The ship

7:07

that was intended to provide his

7:10

escape sails on and

7:12

Jonah finds himself in the

7:15

beginning of what has come to

7:17

be known as the night sea

7:19

journey. Although

7:21

cast adrift and abandoned in the

7:24

great ocean, Jonah does

7:26

not drown because God enters

7:28

again and sends a great

7:30

fish that swallows him. We

7:34

now know it as a whale, but

7:36

at that time people did not know

7:39

what whales were. It

7:41

was simply called a great fish or

7:43

sometimes called a leviathan. Instead

7:46

of passing through an outer

7:48

danger like the formidable clashing

7:50

of rocks in the tales

7:52

of Homer, the journey of

7:55

Jonah leads him down and back

7:57

as if into the great womb

7:59

of life. In.

8:01

Order for him to accept his

8:04

colleagues and his connection to the

8:06

spirit of life. He must

8:08

to down into the depths

8:11

of the unseen to be

8:13

born again from darkness. In.

8:17

Biblical Versions: Jonah repents for his

8:19

refusal to follow the call and

8:21

promises to do all that he

8:23

is called to do and go

8:26

preach to the people in the

8:28

city of Nineveh. And. At

8:30

some point the great fish

8:33

or well miraculously spits him

8:35

out to a place near

8:37

his destination. Then.

8:40

Conquering his fears of speaking

8:42

in public or being a

8:44

vehicle of spirit, Jonah

8:47

becomes the reluctant profit.

8:49

And. Began speaking the message of

8:51

God to the people of the

8:53

city. And. Surprisingly, everybody

8:56

including the most wealthy and

8:58

powerful people puts on Santa

9:00

Claus and begin to fast

9:02

and repent for all their

9:04

wrong doings. And then God

9:07

scenes. This change in their

9:09

ways spares the people and

9:11

the city from destruction. Both

9:16

Jonah and Know of wind up

9:18

and rough waters and both are

9:20

eventually brought to dry land. And.

9:23

Are able to enter a new phase of

9:25

life. But. How they

9:27

arrived there and what they

9:29

under go appears drastically different.

9:33

Know. Appears to have no doubts

9:35

about the divine word. And.

9:37

That it will come to some kind of fruition.

9:40

Jonah. On the other hand

9:43

is notorious for his uncertainty and

9:45

his reluctance and finally his decision

9:47

to flee in the opposite direction

9:50

from with the instructions from God

9:52

tell him the goes. know

9:55

appears as a protagonist in

9:57

accord with god while joe

10:00

as antagonist stands apart

10:02

and refuses to answer

10:05

the call and accept the divine

10:07

message. In

10:09

the story of Noah, the ship

10:12

or ark serves as a life-preserving

10:14

vessel in the midst of the

10:16

flooding waters of change and

10:19

in the tale of Jonah, the

10:21

life-enhancing vessel turns out to be

10:23

a great fish or

10:26

whale swimming in the

10:28

deep waters of life. Instead

10:31

of conquering a dragon or

10:33

a demon, the would-be messenger

10:35

of God appears to die

10:38

after being swallowed into the

10:40

depths of the Leviathan, which

10:42

acts as a kind of cosmic womb.

10:46

In psychological terms, there is

10:48

an existential regression that takes

10:50

the initiate all the way

10:52

down into the unconscious, which

10:55

also represents going all the

10:57

way back to the very

10:59

beginning so that the subsequent

11:02

rebirth repeats the original act

11:04

of creation. To

11:07

emerge from the belly of the whale involves

11:10

a passage from the darkness

11:12

of primordial chaos to the

11:14

light of creation. In

11:18

many ways, we are

11:20

in a reluctant collective descent

11:22

that has parallels to this

11:25

old story of Jonah and

11:27

the whale. Like

11:29

Jonah being tossed out of the

11:32

ship and into the deep ocean,

11:34

there comes a point where there

11:36

can be no turning back. Like

11:40

Jonah, we can turn away from

11:42

our own calling and try

11:44

to escape the sense

11:46

that we are here to

11:48

undergo a thorough transformation which

11:51

opens us to the possibilities and

11:53

the potential of our own lives.

11:56

Yet in the end, We fall into

11:58

the troubled waters and. The way. And

12:01

we wind up in a process

12:03

of this solution that we tried

12:05

so desperately to avoid. In.

12:09

Alchemy The term that

12:11

suggests falling into the

12:13

dark ocean and into

12:15

the depths of the

12:17

unconscious is salute Ceo.

12:20

The. Word from which we get solution.

12:23

And. A can be said that

12:26

all major life experiences tend

12:28

to be Salutes Ios. That.

12:31

If we do not avoid or

12:33

refuse or run away from the

12:35

challenges and the losses in our

12:37

lives. We. Will find

12:39

ourselves descending into the

12:42

depths. Not. To become

12:44

lost or simply disappear. But.

12:47

To dissolve the restricting aspects

12:49

of our own egos in

12:52

order to loosen the psychic

12:54

space and allow the deep

12:57

self, the knowing self, the

12:59

creative self to rise and

13:02

become more conscious to us.

13:06

Like. Jonah and Like know as well

13:09

We are each called to a meaningful

13:11

purpose in life. The kind

13:13

of purpose that used to be imagined

13:15

as a divine mission. In

13:18

religious texts, the one being called

13:20

by God becomes a profit and

13:22

a spokesperson for a system of

13:24

beliefs. But. Him mythology.

13:26

They represent someone becoming a

13:28

protagonist in their own unique

13:31

story. Each. Calling

13:33

has something divine in it because it

13:35

comes from the other world. Yet.

13:38

What is being called to is

13:40

a divine spark that is the

13:42

natural inheritance set with since each

13:44

human soul. That is

13:46

why the tales of Jonas and Know

13:48

have been called by God can resonate

13:50

with almost every. The.

13:53

reasons they needs to be diverse

13:56

tales about calling is because people

13:58

see and hear react in

14:00

different ways. Some

14:02

hear of Noah and his dream and

14:05

realize that they also have dreams, dreams

14:08

that can be interpreted and messages

14:10

that can be found and be followed.

14:14

Others need to hear about falling

14:16

and failing, about being

14:18

rejected or cast out in order

14:20

to recall how they heard a

14:23

call but turned away and fled

14:25

from it. As

14:28

the ancient stories told it, there

14:30

may be just one road of

14:32

life and death, but people are

14:34

strewn all along it. Some

14:37

keep refusing messages from the divine that

14:39

are sent to them, despite

14:41

the old saying that the calling

14:43

keeps calling. Others

14:45

find a place, a profession,

14:48

a temple where they are

14:50

accepted and simply remain in that

14:52

place to some degree in

14:55

the vicinity of the divine while

14:57

managing not to truly answer the

14:59

call. They may

15:01

have the sense that the divine is nearby

15:04

but they do not intend to be

15:06

swallowed in order to be reborn. One

15:09

reason a story like Jonah

15:11

being swallowed by the whale

15:14

continues to exist is

15:16

that people need to know that

15:18

in order to be fully alive

15:20

we must transform and that in

15:22

order to transform we must descend

15:24

to the depths before we can

15:26

rise to the heights of spirit.

15:30

Part of the message of the story

15:32

of Jonah is that the

15:35

divine doesn't punish him for his

15:37

refusal but rather when he feels

15:39

most lost and abandoned sends the

15:42

whale to act like the womb

15:44

of the rest of his life.

15:48

When seen in more psychological

15:50

or mythological terms, the tale

15:52

of Jonah is less about

15:55

punishment from the divine and

15:57

more about becoming aware of

15:59

the inner resources and

16:01

the true potential of our

16:03

own souls. Once

16:06

inside the belly of the whale

16:09

our ego or persona has little

16:11

importance. After all,

16:13

it was developed to present a

16:15

certain face and a specific demeanor

16:18

to the outside world. In

16:21

the depths of descent there is

16:23

no one there to impress or

16:25

to trouble over the fact that

16:27

the ego must be dissolved to

16:29

some degree. It is

16:32

common to have a great fear of

16:35

being lost and being abandoned and

16:37

yet there is a deeper self

16:39

that cannot only survive the descent

16:42

but also understands better than us

16:44

the true purpose and aim of

16:47

our lives. Here

16:50

on earth we typically must lose

16:52

our common sense of self in

16:54

order to find our deeper sense

16:57

of a unique self that carries

16:59

and knows how to express the

17:01

true spirit of our lives. It

17:05

is this deeper self

17:08

that is the agent of salutio.

17:11

The deeper self is the

17:13

source of wisdom and

17:15

then the dark night of the soul or

17:18

the night sea journey. What

17:20

is worth saving in the

17:22

ego becomes saved while what

17:24

is not worth saving, what

17:27

is wrongheaded, misguided and

17:29

riddled with fear is dissolved.

17:34

As late as the 18th

17:36

century many serious researchers were

17:38

interpreting the Jonah story as

17:40

a historical account. They

17:42

became obsessed with trying to identify

17:45

the exact species of great

17:48

fish that swallowed Jonah. At

17:51

the other end of the spectrum of interpretation,

17:54

mystics from various faiths

17:56

and practices imagined that

17:58

the inside of the

18:00

whale was illuminated, with its

18:02

eyes being like church windows,

18:05

so that those who surrendered

18:07

to being swallowed would find

18:09

not simple death or annihilation,

18:12

but a rebirth of imagination

18:14

that transformed the belly of the

18:17

whale into a temple or a

18:19

cathedral. In

18:22

this steeper and greater vision, the

18:25

belly of the whale becomes a

18:27

place of revelation of the inner

18:29

mysteries of the soul. Rather

18:32

than being the belly of the beast, the

18:35

interior of the whale becomes

18:37

the place where the divine

18:39

is reborn in the deep

18:41

self and soul of the

18:43

seeker. As

18:46

was the case with Jonah, the

18:49

aim of a descent is

18:51

not simply bringing back a

18:53

treasure or an invention, but

18:55

rather a gathering of knowledge and

18:58

wisdom that is otherwise missing in

19:01

our lives. The

19:04

psychological term a Jonah

19:06

complex is used

19:08

to describe the evasion of

19:11

one's own destiny, the fearful

19:14

instinct to run away from

19:16

one's natural orientation in life,

19:19

and the pattern of undermining

19:21

our own talents and

19:24

resisting giving those gifts

19:26

we are intended to give

19:28

to the world. The

19:32

retrieval of knowledge from the

19:34

depths is unique in each

19:36

case, and in

19:39

each case it involves an

19:41

expansion and growth of the

19:43

individual soul that similar

19:45

to Jonah can help change the

19:47

common world. The

19:50

emergence of knowledge and loss wisdom

19:52

from the depths exists

19:54

in contrast to the notion of

19:56

ideas that are being handed down

19:59

from above. We

20:01

live in dark times now. We are

20:03

in a collective descent. And

20:06

one of the old sayings was,

20:08

when you find yourself descending, dive

20:10

deeper. Because that

20:12

old wisdom trusted that in

20:14

the depths, each person could

20:16

find their own connection to

20:18

the deeper self. In

20:21

being willing to descend to the

20:23

depths, we become able to

20:25

bring back timeless knowledge that

20:27

can also turn out to be very

20:30

timely in the common world. This

20:33

redemption from below can become

20:36

the source of genuine hope,

20:38

the kind of hope that

20:40

comes from passing through despair,

20:43

the kind of hope that can

20:45

lead to a psychological and

20:47

a spiritual regeneration. The

20:51

story of Noah

20:53

has already survived many

20:55

floods and radical changes in

20:57

the world, and

20:59

that in some ways is a tribute to

21:01

the willingness of Noah to be

21:04

true to the dream that gave him

21:06

the wisdom of the divine, that

21:09

includes the knowledge that

21:11

the nature of this

21:13

world involves the mystery

21:15

of life, death, and

21:18

renewal. In

21:20

that sense, the story of

21:22

Noah and his ark and

21:25

surviving the great deluge may

21:27

serve as the collective story for the

21:30

times in which we live. The

21:33

story of Jonah may cut

21:35

closer to our own hearts

21:38

because it depicts how common

21:40

it is to

21:42

ignore or neglect or

21:44

refuse to answer our

21:46

own calling and deny

21:48

the instinctive sense that we are

21:51

secretly connected to the divine. Seen

21:54

that way, the story of Jonah and

21:56

the whale may serve as the collective story

21:59

for the times in which we live. in helping

22:01

us to better realize that

22:03

we are each called, that

22:06

we are each a prophet in our own

22:08

soul, at least we

22:10

are so if we are able

22:12

to find and willing to follow

22:15

that which calls to our own

22:17

unique souls. In

22:21

following Jonah we struggle through

22:23

not only our fear of

22:25

death but our particular

22:27

way of fearing being

22:30

fully alive. In

22:33

finding our way to the shores of

22:36

self-revelation and

22:38

awakening to why we came to life

22:40

to begin with, we

22:42

help add presence and meaning to

22:44

the world and

22:46

then the meaning of an old saying

22:49

becomes revealed that is to

22:51

say if we do

22:54

not abandon ourselves we

22:56

do not abandon the world. Thank

23:04

you for listening to and supporting Living

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Myth. You can

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and give deep insight into our lives by

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