0:00

So crazy stuff that happens. I'm or one guy. A

0:02

guy. Like oil from the kitchen they put in

0:04

the microwave. Important on this dude. It

0:06

was a guy that I had almost gonna fight with the week

0:09

before. The didn't Nozick. Than. Godlike

0:11

saw my face and. What's

0:21

up guys? and welcome back to

0:23

the Locked In with the In

0:25

Big Podcast. On today's episode, I

0:27

have Rob East in here to

0:29

share how dealing in college lands

0:31

him and in North Carolina State

0:33

Prison where we learn how he

0:35

survives. Gets. Out and is

0:37

able to overcome his struggles and turn

0:40

it all around. I want to give

0:42

a huge shout out to Tyson! Two

0:44

Point on Rock and there honey! Right

0:46

now! I got to go to their

0:48

For Twenty event in New York City

0:51

this past weekend. Got an awesome picture

0:53

with the legend Mike Tyson himself, wishing

0:55

him the best for his upcoming fight

0:57

with Jake. Paul and guys, make sure

1:00

you check out Tyson to point out

1:02

I absolutely love their edibles. Do them

1:04

every night before sleep and aren't really.

1:06

Really relaxes you and makes you

1:08

feel really comfortable. And.

1:10

Yeah, try their products. I

1:12

love love love ties into

1:15

Boy now! And also they

1:17

have amazing hoodies! Super comfortable.

1:19

Check them out! Also.

1:21

Had a great time at the

1:23

Narc Conference and National Association for

1:25

Reentry Professionals Annual Conference last week

1:28

and I got invited to speak

1:30

to the inmates at a correctional

1:32

facility. And. I even

1:34

got to interview the ward and

1:36

the Superintendent William Cope. Ah,

1:38

His episode is going to be coming out

1:41

in a few weeks. I interviewed him inside

1:43

the correctional facility where I got the tour

1:45

it. ah, check out the behind the scenes

1:47

footage on my tic toc in back to

1:49

check that out. I also need to give

1:51

a shoutout to Aaron Jab it was a

1:54

guest on the show. He's a part of

1:56

a back back ministry England Falls, New York

1:58

which supports adult returning home from. Incarceration

2:00

Odd The link in the by are

2:02

fewer interest in donate to the cause.

2:05

Now. Sit back relax and get right a

2:07

lock in with Robison What's gonna know

2:09

a man Rob while the mirror up

2:11

to are locked and pleasure have a

2:13

new today are you Came from North

2:15

Carolina Charlotte North Carolina the up out

2:17

of the flight it wouldn't do better

2:19

knows i grab three hour flight. Easy.

2:22

One came right into our

2:24

westchester. My. My

2:26

plane so but hour away or thirty minutes

2:28

south of and it's a good airport in

2:30

our first small you can kind of go

2:32

and a now and it's close to the

2:34

studio. Arm. And there's warm weather

2:37

here. Yeah Connecticut out of the as expected

2:39

to be freezing says his I was said

2:41

seventies yeah the last few days of and

2:43

are really really nice. Today it's was they

2:46

had seventy. ah but normally it's called the

2:48

stamp out it's that. So yeah neither. but

2:50

much snow the last couple years. I.

2:52

Have used to live in Massachusetts but I just

2:55

came from Miami in L A for the past

2:57

two years. And. Says ways to

2:59

the Warm and I'm glad it is

3:01

finally a woman up around here to

3:03

for sure where in Massachusetts conquered. Conquered

3:06

America Famous historical it is

3:08

further Paul Revere and the

3:10

Civil were not. Some were

3:12

battle a bunker her arm.

3:14

Revolutionary War started yeah. And

3:16

I think we went there and nom middle

3:18

school if our that I've it's old North

3:21

Bridges were though I'd Paul Revere hung a

3:23

lanterns story and I don't know around as

3:25

as sawyer discuss the growth or there's no

3:27

idea know what a weird I mean we

3:30

learned about it up here in school. yeah

3:32

that whole thought the revolutionary war huge I

3:34

took got a p us and. Our.

3:37

Tracks it was a that bad. It was

3:39

interesting to learn. I like a happy history

3:41

to. Yeah, I think that out all the

3:43

A P classes that's one of the i'm

3:45

the better ones. Yeah, world history was prime

3:47

my favorite and then. Ah

3:49

I'm the out were a U

3:51

S issues about second second favorite

3:53

class to was like growing up

3:56

and and Concord conquered so I

3:58

move there. When I was. Well

4:00

you know, when I was six and so

4:02

six to twelve? And. I

4:04

had a southern accent so my dad

4:06

moved. Ah, I'm a lot. We move

4:08

up and on the east coast so it's kind of

4:11

like an outsider I guess. Southern. Accent

4:13

in the northern city. And.

4:15

Ah but I loved it. I love the

4:17

snow. My dad sold us well on our

4:19

on the snow and on a being fun.

4:22

Ah, But. Yeah I mean

4:24

I moved out when I was move back south

4:26

and I was twelve so memories. You. Know

4:28

not now isn't that Adults and I remember too

4:31

well. Were. You born? What?

4:33

What state are Georgia? Born in

4:35

Atlanta and man parents moved up

4:37

to Mass. Mccants

4:39

like missionaries and passers, knows

4:41

them and like seminary. Ah

4:43

virgins until marriage slag. Very.

4:46

Very religious good people and

4:48

then. My

4:50

dad like though called the Do More. He got into

4:52

real estate. And then we

4:54

moved her Massachusetts to the actually went

4:57

to Harvard Business School. And

4:59

so on. We came up here for that. Com

5:01

and and back south when he started

5:03

his first entrepreneurial ventures. And

5:05

so so he gave up like the church

5:07

slides to go to in the business and

5:09

wow, I've never really heard of that before.

5:11

I think he just felt like he did

5:14

make more of an impact in in a

5:16

way that was still you know for the

5:18

better of everybody. In business

5:20

and he's use deadly doing that Right

5:22

now he's got a job of. A

5:25

baby bottle that is like a new

5:27

type of baby bottles. It's remaining nipple

5:29

confusion which is where the baby does

5:32

it. Go back to the mom after

5:34

these. A bottle. And so he's

5:36

a ball with cool projects. And

5:38

adeptly thing is fried bill and more for

5:40

still beneath than he did before. How does

5:42

he went back to Harvard or went to

5:45

Harvard do like forty or something like that.

5:47

So an older guy definitely for going to

5:49

Harvard business school and I definitely don't seek

5:51

lot of pastors either. And so

5:53

he was, But. They do like somebody that

5:55

has kind of a different profile than typical. So.

5:58

He was older for sure. He

6:01

was. No. I

6:03

was graduating from. Elementary.

6:06

School right as he graduated from. Harvard

6:09

Business School Forty. As and had

6:11

some kind of of what an incredible story.

6:13

Did you ever siblings and off girl know

6:15

I've got one younger brother. Yeah. But

6:18

you. Have a brother. He's twenty

6:20

four. Twenty four. How the enough? Thirty Two

6:22

Etherton. So yeah, four years on that. The

6:24

of down? Twenty Eight. Ah, I'm wearing as

6:26

close grown up. Yeah. Memorize

6:28

really close. Right

6:30

now he's out in Colorado. He kind of. Ah,

6:33

He loves skiing and I loves the

6:35

wilderness so he went that way you

6:37

like to the gap year after high

6:39

school had a t and then decided

6:41

I want to go and like work

6:43

on ski resorts and ski and ah

6:45

that's can always been doing Past years.

6:49

So. How old are you and you

6:52

got locked up, I was I gotta

6:54

roster that nineteen under investigation eighteen like

6:56

that holy year of A? Ah,

6:58

indicted at nineteen and than I was arrested.

7:01

Twenty one. she's bro the rate you're into

7:03

some stuff at a young age he i

7:05

owned a nightclub manner at a low whereas

7:07

old. I got in the cancer business on

7:10

us fifteen, had a very successful business in

7:12

high school and I have. Either

7:14

the last you gas of all it's I've been

7:16

like very interested in my snow and since it's

7:18

gets kind of it's interesting. Like one that the

7:21

host could not have. Any podcasts are were like

7:23

the host. Has. An interesting snoring though.

7:25

so the gassed always like to chime in

7:27

and like and and ask questions and stuff.

7:29

It's it's cool to see like the upper

7:31

Spongebob I don't wanna be to redundant for

7:33

your audience that only like they learn something

7:36

new every time you know because everyone ass

7:38

it's like. It. It kind of

7:40

applies to the shower because every time I

7:42

have gas or similar stories by everyone has

7:44

a different answer, right? and I'm able to

7:47

draw something new for me to death because

7:49

everyone has their own personal experience right? So

7:51

and Gas com and ask me different questions

7:53

that just kind of puts a different perspective

7:56

on it. Yeah, I think. It.

7:58

is you know you when you try to relate to some who's

8:00

been to prison, knowing how old they

8:02

were when they went, how long they were

8:04

in their other basics for how you frame

8:07

digging out the

8:10

similar and different experiences between

8:12

the situations. So you went

8:14

in for how many years again? I got a three year

8:16

sentence and I did about 24, 25 months. Yeah,

8:18

I got three to five and then I

8:21

worked my ass off the entire time to make sure I

8:23

got that minimum. And

8:26

I did, I got the minimum, so thank God. So

8:28

was it hard to move around at a

8:31

young age, like going to different schools and growing up

8:33

like that? I think it was for sure. I

8:37

had ADHD and so I was on like Adderall

8:39

and I think that increased my

8:41

anxiety. Also like I just

8:45

had to break into new social groups like every five years,

8:47

every time we moved. And

8:49

I think it was hard, but it also

8:51

made me much better at doing that overall,

8:53

which helped a lot going

8:56

through a lot of new situations later in life. So

8:59

I think it built a skill, but

9:01

it was definitely hard for me at a young age. How

9:03

do you think your parents would have described you during

9:05

your young adolescent teenage

9:08

years? Just

9:12

rebellious. I

9:15

started like getting into drugs, trying to

9:17

kind of find my like, you know,

9:20

the group I'd fit in with when I was

9:25

probably like middle

9:28

high school is when I first like started smoking weed

9:30

a little bit. And

9:33

I think it definitely kind of pushed me into that direction, just

9:35

kind of looking for a place to fit. But

9:39

even besides that, I was definitely a troublemaker. I

9:42

would like pick on my

9:44

brother a lot. You can see a lot of places where

9:47

that tension like played out into the choices

9:51

I made and the things I did. But

9:54

thankfully, I think prison actually

9:56

helped me like firmly

9:59

decide to put a stop to all that. I

10:04

think it kind of helped me like kind of figure

10:06

out what I was made of in a different way too and

10:09

so for me it was it was kind of necessary if

10:11

I hadn't have gone through that I probably

10:13

still would be into the same kinds

10:15

of things. What do you think it

10:17

was for you that drew you to those groups

10:19

of people brought you down into that kind of

10:22

path? I think people always I

10:24

felt like they looked at me like even

10:27

though my dad was a pastor when I was born they looked at

10:29

me kind of like I was privileged and I always felt like I

10:32

had a chip on my shoulder to like prove

10:34

that I was as tough or as like

10:36

capable as anybody else and

10:39

so I think part of it was me kind of

10:41

trying to prove something to somebody or to myself that

10:44

kind of drew me in that path and I think the other part

10:46

is the

10:48

people that get into drugs and get into those

10:50

things they also usually have a similar they

10:54

have some kind of pain in them right and so

10:58

we think we connect with each other on that

11:00

level and sometimes it ends up

11:02

taking it further in the wrong direction for sure.

11:04

What do you think your pain was now that

11:06

you're older and you have a deeper understanding? Just

11:08

finding like social

11:11

acceptance I'd say probably honestly moving

11:14

so much I felt like me

11:17

and my brother was really tight but it

11:20

took me a long time to kind of feel connected and I'd

11:22

say I didn't really feel that way until halfway through high school

11:25

and we stayed in North Carolina for a long

11:27

time so that was really part of why I finally kind

11:29

of connected with a group there. Do you

11:32

think you ever solved that internal pain?

11:35

Yeah for sure I

11:38

think I kind

11:40

of had to figure out who I was in

11:42

a different way and align myself

11:44

with something strongly you

11:47

know figure out kind of what my purpose was in

11:49

a way and I think going

11:52

through prison you know I realized no

11:54

longer am I gonna have like

11:56

a bunch of options where I feel

11:59

like anything's gonna be be easy for me. It

12:01

became like, okay, now you got like two or

12:03

three options. And I had

12:05

to go all in. And I knew

12:07

that if I did do well, that I

12:10

would have like a story that I could tell that would

12:12

be impactful. And so then it was like, really easy for

12:14

me to choose, you know, kind

12:16

of like define myself in a little in a

12:18

way. Obviously, prison can define

12:20

you negatively too, but it

12:23

kind of gave me something to to align

12:27

myself with. And

12:29

I found a lot of strength through that and identity,

12:33

I guess. What do you think could have

12:35

been an alternative route you could have taken

12:37

to kind of help give you that healing,

12:40

I guess you were looking for at that age,

12:42

aside from turning to drugs and going down that

12:44

path? Was there something else that there could have

12:46

been for you? Or maybe looking back on it

12:48

now something that there should have been? It's

12:55

hard for it's hard to say. I can't say what do you think?

12:58

I mean, I think for me, like, if,

13:00

if the schools were, at that

13:03

time, I don't know how high school is now,

13:05

or college is now. But if it was more

13:07

welcoming to someone with an

13:10

entrepreneurial mind, someone that thinks outside the

13:12

box, because back then they punished you

13:14

for that, and they could still do

13:16

that now. And I think even the

13:18

world kind of still like, punishes

13:21

outside of the box thinkers. Yeah, for sure.

13:23

Like when I went to prison, and I

13:25

got out on probation, this is a perfect

13:27

example, like, the probation officers, they just roll

13:29

their eyes when you see you want to

13:31

get into a business, like, because that makes

13:33

their job harder, because they don't understand it.

13:35

Even when I was on pretrial release, you

13:37

know, not even found guilty, going through that

13:39

there, they kept asking the court, why can't

13:42

you just work a normal job? And

13:44

you know, it was well within my right to

13:46

continue to own my own business. So

13:48

I think that's something that needs

13:50

to change. Because people

13:53

that are outside the box thinkers, they don't

13:55

grow into that. Yeah, that's a given you're

13:57

born with that, I think. I think so

13:59

too. And I think if we focus on developing

14:01

it at a young age and

14:03

helping that, you know, like all the things I

14:06

learned in school, I don't use now. No. Like

14:08

why did I need to take algebra? Why did

14:11

I need to struggle geometry? That's exactly what I

14:13

was thinking about, say geometry. Yeah, like all of

14:15

these bullshit classes, like the basics. Yes. You

14:17

know the capital of every city, every state in the

14:19

country. Yeah, and just the pressure you put on kids,

14:22

like I think about, and I was talking about this

14:24

on a podcast recently, like the amount of pressure there

14:26

is on kids to get good grades in the

14:28

AP classes and stuff. You ask any one of

14:30

those kids that went to college, they didn't use

14:33

those AP classes. You know, it's

14:35

just there's so much pressure, like live. Yeah.

14:37

Live, find something you want, focus on the

14:39

sports, whatever you want to do, but not

14:41

that it's the grading system, all of that.

14:43

You said it well. It's like, it's not

14:45

inspiring or exciting to think of, oh

14:47

yeah, one day I'll have a job nine

14:49

to five the rest of my life. It's not

14:51

exciting at all. And I think

14:53

I always needed like a higher level of excitement, which

14:56

is part of why I was like drawn

14:58

into the world I was drawn into. I

15:02

think that if there are,

15:04

if there is more of a mentor system and

15:06

entrepreneurship was more like,

15:09

if there were better systems to facilitate it, I

15:12

love, you know, online courses and things like that.

15:14

And the way that we're able to see

15:16

like more entrepreneurs through TikTok

15:18

and through Instagram, in a

15:20

way I don't think that younger generations did. And

15:23

so we can kind of connect with them and

15:26

there is an exciting path that is not selling drugs.

15:28

I think we're kind of flooded with selling

15:30

drugs in the media, music, TV,

15:33

it's like it's either a

15:35

school or go sell drugs. It kind

15:37

of seems like. Yeah. Meanwhile,

15:40

you see all these news articles like I'm looking

15:42

in Connecticut, they want to ban phones and TikTok

15:44

schools. Like TikTok is a great

15:46

tool. Maybe there needs to be a better filter

15:48

on what's like bullshit. Like I see a lot

15:51

of business gurus or whatever.

15:53

Like I look at that if you

15:55

write like you're a six figure earner

15:57

and your Instagram bio with a rocket

15:59

ship. or something, there's a good chance.

16:01

I think I have that in mind. Oh, you have

16:03

a six figure? I don't know. No,

16:06

but there's a lot of people that do

16:08

write that. Yeah. That it's

16:10

just not like I get a lot of DMs about

16:12

like business opportunities and this and that and I know

16:14

that like that's not a lot. Yeah, exactly. And so

16:16

you see a lot of TikToks around that. So

16:19

maybe that would be a good thing. But like you

16:21

were saying, real lived experience needs to be brought into

16:23

schools. It needs to be brought into schools. And

16:26

I think I think there could be a better

16:29

like platform system. I think it's kind of

16:31

Alex or Moses doing with school his

16:33

platform for courses. I think if

16:35

there was more transparency and they had reviews and

16:38

it was like, you know, here are all

16:40

the course creators or coaches in this category.

16:42

Here are their accolades. This is validated. This

16:44

is not validated. The

16:48

idea I was telling you about the nonprofit that I

16:50

have with the guy that was kind of my best

16:52

friend in prison. It's basically

16:54

the idea is to

16:56

connect people that have been successful

16:58

through the same trauma. And

17:00

so like a platform specifically for coaches that have

17:02

been through prison. Right. And so

17:05

you're in prison or getting out, you know, you have apps and

17:07

phones in there now. If you could

17:09

see a guy who came through prison and was being

17:12

very successful and you knew it was legit. How

17:15

much of a different mind space would you be in then

17:18

being surrounded by guys who say the only thing you can

17:20

do now is go sell drugs? Because that's

17:22

really the narrative in there that there's

17:24

not many other options but to go

17:26

back to the same lifestyle. I

17:29

don't know what it is in the feds. Yeah, I mean,

17:31

in the feds, like a lot of the guys would

17:33

gravitate towards me because they were interested

17:36

in how can they're doing 15 to 20 years.

17:39

I'm doing three years in the mindset is how do we

17:42

get more for less time? And that's the wrong

17:44

mindset. But if they were teaching you like, hey,

17:46

you can literally go to prison, come out and

17:48

share your story about prison. You can make six

17:51

figures a year or you could do this or

17:53

you could do there's so many. Right. There's

17:55

so many opportunities, that hustler mentality that put

17:58

you into prison. Then

18:00

make you very successful on the outside, I

18:02

think if if they were just able to

18:04

pull open this app and see, like, and

18:06

then set. Haven't. Listened. that bullshit of

18:08

a has had a wall of. Ah,

18:11

Of things that are true bother on entrepreneurs

18:13

the went to prison that are have been

18:15

successful in you could go and like watch

18:17

their stories and today oh damn that's actually

18:19

better than selling drugs. the although I saw

18:21

this guy has. And. Then learn their

18:23

courses while you're in prison and come out

18:25

and work for them more of a mentorship.

18:28

Type. Situation A thing could be a much

18:30

more effective. Rehabilitation and I

18:32

think it'll help. and the drug aspect

18:34

of things to wear and stuff this

18:36

drug programs within one schools. Bring someone

18:38

like I guess that's been on are

18:40

shown that can tell you the rock

18:43

bottom they've been through. Sit him down,

18:45

have them tell their story. I guarantee

18:47

you that can inspire markets and not

18:49

do drugs and go down that path

18:51

to see what that person last and

18:53

one through. Then. Saying don't

18:55

do this or don't do that and resets.

18:58

It's hard it to trust the my opinion

19:01

that hasn't. Made the

19:03

mistake before. You know my parents are

19:05

amazing people but I was always just. you

19:07

know they want to listen to those ages

19:09

as you know they hit they were. I'm.

19:13

Straight edge. On. But.

19:16

Is. Simply much more more helpful to hear from

19:18

somebody who's paid the price. Ah,

19:21

I'm. A lot of the guys up connect with

19:23

since I've gotten out. I. Know for a

19:25

fact that they would probably be selling drugs if

19:27

if we hadn't been working together and like but

19:29

there's no mean and they know a my dad

19:31

not where the don't do that. Ah,

19:33

here's the better way and. That's

19:37

what it takes is just takes a

19:39

better example and Lysol all about perspective on

19:41

this is something I lacked early on.

19:43

You. Have to look at the perspective of

19:45

the future in the sense where okay, you're

19:48

selling drugs, now you're making a bunch of

19:50

money. Everything's great. But. eventually

19:52

it'll come to and and are you get

19:54

caught news but the perspective of okay i'm

19:56

in two hundred thousand dollars and a year

19:58

but then i and losing four or five

20:01

years because I go to prison and this and that

20:03

if I just skip the drug aspect and then focused

20:05

on a good hustle, I could have two times or

20:07

three times as much as that over the course of

20:09

the six years and not be put

20:11

five steps back. Yeah,

20:14

I mean, it's hard to lose

20:17

all that time. And for me, it was

20:19

obvious, you know, once I got arrested

20:21

that it was not worth it beforehand, I was like,

20:23

I'm gonna make so much money by the time I

20:25

get locked up, it won't matter. And that's that's far

20:27

from it. So, you know, legal

20:29

fees, fines, wiped me completely

20:31

dry, for sure. So did you go to

20:33

college? Yeah, I went to, I don't

20:36

know if you know Chapel Hill, like the Tar

20:38

Heels. Yeah, isn't that the top school in the

20:40

country? The top school, yeah. You went to Chapel

20:42

Hill? I graduated right before I got locked up.

20:44

So you were selling drugs in college? In college.

20:46

Were you selling it all in high school or

20:48

just kind of just double dabbling in the world?

20:51

Double dabbling. I really just like smoked a

20:53

little bit in high school, not much. College

20:55

is when I started experimenting

20:57

more. And

21:00

I remember I had this moment where I was like,

21:03

trying to learn chemistry. And I was like, dude, I

21:05

was like, I do not want to be a doctor. I

21:07

was like, doing this shipper. First off,

21:09

I was like, this is a scam. The shit they're teaching us is

21:12

not valuable. And I

21:15

was like, I'm gonna have to start a business. I don't know how I'm gonna

21:17

get the money. So I'm gonna

21:19

sell drugs and try to figure it out and then

21:21

start a business. I

21:26

had a panic attack one night. I remember thinking about what life

21:28

would be like if I did successfully get the job I wanted

21:30

in college. And I was like, it's not the future I want.

21:33

And it was too late for me to go

21:35

to B school because I already screwed up my grades in chemistry. They

21:38

had like a minimum score requirement for

21:40

business school in Carolina. And

21:43

so I started trying to

21:45

make my own plan. I

21:48

think one

21:50

thing that's tough though is once you start

21:52

selling drugs, it's really hard just to put

21:55

that money into something else. You tend to just think of

21:57

ways to sell drugs better instead of other

21:59

types of business. There's I feel like. See. You

22:01

are going to school to become a doctor.

22:03

Originally that's was thinking. And

22:06

then I changed to. To.

22:08

Just wells interested in. So I

22:10

I ended up going to Sociology.

22:13

And. Then we had a class of the

22:15

Sociology statistics like says he stat. And.

22:17

We would analyze our we learn how to use

22:19

like statistics to analyze people's behaviors and the kind

22:21

of things that they'll be interested in are things

22:24

that they'll do. Based. On there's

22:26

like since the survey. An

22:28

Hour. That's when I was like, I

22:30

realize naturally and big, Gifted and Statistics.

22:34

And. I was a already marketing with this and so I

22:36

can a new that's what I wanted to do. And.

22:38

The funny thing is now is not for newer

22:40

that has ended up being like the main thing

22:42

that that I'm good at and. I

22:45

have. I have a job owning a business, doing

22:48

what I. Thought. I wanted to do

22:50

for somebody else. was in college after prison

22:52

and some like. It's. Crazy

22:54

that. I don't

22:56

even know how would have achieved that by didn't sell drugs.

22:59

But. It. Or yet from Zero had

23:01

an opera? To Do you think that there was

23:03

a lot of pressure to go straight from high

23:05

school to college? Yeah. Ah,

23:09

Ah, me up for it on myself to evaluate what's

23:11

you. What? Was expected a bike. I be

23:13

a loser if I didn't go to a good school.

23:15

And then. I. End up in

23:17

there and really thinking about what lives and look

23:19

like after in are still like. A.

23:22

Micro by an end of this at

23:24

this is not for me that my

23:26

Dad ah. Been such a

23:28

high I you know, high achiever. definitely.

23:33

I definitely wanted turbo in his footsteps.

23:35

and so. I

23:38

think one time they found out that. I'd

23:40

done psychedelic. And.

23:42

My dad tried to like not send me back to school. And

23:45

I was like are and I like to go

23:47

directly to is now on my own A in

23:50

my own death. And went back.

23:52

Sounds like even I didn't know what I

23:54

wanted to do was firmly like. ah

23:56

i want to go to school i think it was

23:58

more because of what was socially what I

24:00

thought was socially expected, then that

24:04

I would actually use it. Did

24:06

you go through the party phase in college?

24:08

For sure. That's

24:10

what got me into drugs in

24:12

the first place. So

24:16

a little bit of partying, I wasn't in a frat or anything.

24:20

Little bit of partying, and then more just

24:22

selling, it became more just selling drugs. And

24:24

what kind of drugs did you start selling?

24:27

I started with weed and psychedelics,

24:29

and then it just escalated

24:32

to whatever. People

24:36

were actually buying psychedelics in college.

24:38

Yeah, a lot. Yeah, that was actually the

24:40

first thing that, besides

24:42

weed, the first thing that I tried in college. I

24:46

don't know, maybe it's not common in all schools. Did

24:48

you go to college at all? Never went to college.

24:50

I think it's pretty common. I think that's where people

24:52

experiment with that a lot. The psychedelics? And

24:55

how does that work? Is

24:57

it just mushrooms? Yeah, mushrooms

24:59

or acid. And

25:02

I think a

25:04

lot of people in college are wrestling with just

25:08

the matrix and thinking about the

25:10

system. This is what the rest of my life's gonna

25:12

look like. Those are the years where you're figuring that

25:15

stuff out, and psychedelics are

25:17

obviously something people will be drawn to that are looking

25:19

to think outside the box. And

25:21

so that definitely had

25:24

a big impact on me. Good

25:26

or bad, here we are. I

25:28

mean, it was the best thing that probably could have happened to

25:30

you. I think that, I

25:34

think the main thing that it indicates is that I was looking

25:36

for some answers that I didn't feel like I had. Whether

25:39

or not it helped me or not, I

25:42

think it just more says something about my

25:44

discontent with the system more so. What's

25:50

some markup on psychedelics compared to other

25:52

drugs? I

25:55

mean, from the actual cost of making

25:57

it, it's extremely high. You

26:00

aren't cooking at know. I was

26:02

doing like muslim mushrooms and there's

26:04

still a crazy markup on acid mushrooms

26:07

thing. I was balky by. The

26:10

cocaine was the most money for sure and

26:12

not so you got and that's why I

26:14

get into Syria now. Tokens isn't that like

26:16

but you more on a bigger rate arcs

26:18

harshly and college as like the Koch I

26:20

like I know and high school. The guys

26:22

that were song weed and stogie am more

26:24

com and now the ones that are on

26:26

that next level of cocaine thought that have

26:28

a different bracket that's the are much higher

26:30

level one hundred percent and I didn't know

26:32

I knew that it was. You.

26:34

Be on more the radar. I didn't realize quite how

26:37

as receives the time was. Is. Much much

26:39

more Serious. I

26:41

mean I knew was worse. But.

26:46

I. Guess I thought legs oh the oh

26:48

I'm smart do not gonna catch me

26:50

accountable to reside Ah. Though. Get

26:52

the dumb guys verse that, The Roses: My

26:54

way of justifying. It's just really not how

26:57

was that all? It's more like anyone can

26:59

snitch on you. And you

27:01

never know as somebody is going to do

27:03

until they until they're in that situation. And.

27:06

That's exactly what happened to your somebody that I was.

27:09

hanging out with. I don't that he

27:11

i don't know exactly who was in but his name

27:13

on the paperwork because I didn't take it a trial

27:15

is of confidential informant. Ah, but

27:17

I do think I know who it was. I

27:19

had a gut feeling on strong today's boot two

27:22

days before the Cavs game. And.

27:24

So. Ah, I'm. It.

27:27

Put me on the radar. Ah, I'm. I

27:31

think it's safe to say that I wasn't I wasn't

27:33

making the best seasons at that time of my life,

27:35

so I'm. Not. Too much logic

27:37

behind it out. Thanks! How much are you

27:39

making selling? Ah, I'm. Pry.

27:42

Like ten k a month. that and crazy pretty good

27:44

to me when he five hundred college as they this

27:46

is a lot. But

27:48

certainly not. Were three years of your life. And

27:51

that's the profit after expenses

27:53

and. It's.

27:55

Hard to remember probably so finding other a

27:58

selling it just out of your door. We

28:01

had an apartment after sophomore year. I

28:04

don't think I ever sold drugs when I was in

28:06

the dorms. So it was after I moved out. But

28:10

yeah. And are a lot of college

28:12

kids using cocaine? For sure. Yeah.

28:16

Is it to help them or is it more of a party drug? More of a

28:18

party thing. More of a party thing. But

28:20

you see people experimenting with drugs in all ways

28:22

in college for sure. People

28:25

try to use them to help them work or they try

28:28

to use it for just about whatever. You know,

28:30

anything. People are just testing stuff out a lot

28:32

in college I'd say. And were

28:34

you using it yourself? Yeah, for sure.

28:39

The first time I did coke I was like a

28:41

sophomore and the

28:43

girls across the hall brought some over. I

28:45

was like, all right. But

28:49

I never used it outside partying. I

28:55

was prescribed Adderall and that stuff still. And

28:58

I didn't quit using that until after college. But

29:02

yeah. So I never used it

29:04

all day. But I would smoke all day

29:06

for sure in college. I wonder where this

29:08

whole thing of cocaine and girls came from.

29:11

It just attracts them. When

29:13

I used to go out and even

29:16

be around the club and stuff, cocaine

29:18

always attracted the women. Whereas

29:20

weed, you're not going to say, who wants to

29:22

go get high? It doesn't have the same effect.

29:24

It's not as sexy. Weed's not as sexy as

29:26

cocaine. It's not. I don't know why either. Probably

29:29

movies. Yeah. It's amazing. Where

29:32

to start though? Who knows? Yeah, it's

29:34

amazing how it's brought that up and put it into young people's

29:36

minds and they just gravitate towards it.

29:38

And now it's more dangerous than ever because people

29:40

are lacing it and all of these things it's

29:42

not like what it used to be. No.

29:47

I think it's definitely a lot

29:49

more dangerous. And

29:53

I hate that it has that sexy appeal

29:55

because that means a lot of people are going to fall right into it.

29:58

Yeah. Now, did you need the

30:00

money like that were you hustling

30:02

to actually make this money could couldn't you have

30:04

asked your parents what was the drive for you

30:07

so they as I had

30:09

my tuition on on a loan

30:13

and I was selling drugs I

30:15

was telling myself to start a business in

30:18

hindsight I look back and I think I

30:21

was selling drugs to fill a different

30:23

kind of hole inside myself

30:27

like I told you earlier I felt like I kind

30:29

of had that chip in my shoulder and I think

30:32

I was doing it out of you

30:35

know I had my logical reasons in my head and

30:39

maybe if I had known some like some

30:41

mentors that were actually making like you know

30:43

20 grand a month in sales like I

30:45

didn't know that you could do that when

30:48

I was that age so maybe if I did would have

30:50

been different but my

30:52

logical reason was to save up money to start a business

30:57

and emotionally I think I was trying to

30:59

find kind

31:02

of get like respect

31:07

still validated girls all

31:10

these things that I ended up specifically

31:12

you know when I got locked up I

31:15

was like I remember

31:17

in jail just like really really take some hard

31:19

looks at myself in the mirror and

31:22

I was like okay well I'm gonna learn how to meditate

31:24

I'm gonna read the whole time in here I'm gonna get

31:26

fit I probably weighed like 125 pounds and I got locked

31:28

up I was tiny and I

31:32

realized I was doing all these things to fill

31:34

that hole in myself and

31:37

so I was like you know I don't

31:39

know if I'll ever be able to fill that hole but in

31:41

here I'm damn sure gonna try and so

31:44

that was when I really became disciplined before that

31:46

I wasn't

31:49

disciplined in a lot of areas in my life but

31:52

I'd say for the past 10 years I mean I've I'm the kind

31:54

of guy that works like 12 hours 16 hours

31:56

a day and I have for for 10 years now

32:00

And so, so I tried,

32:04

you know, I attacked all those things that

32:07

I felt like I was using drug selling

32:09

to fill. And it definitely helped

32:11

a lot, you know, being, I think

32:13

more than anything, it just gave me like direction

32:15

and gave me some other habits that were better

32:18

to fill my time with and make and get

32:21

validation through more healthy ways like in

32:24

the gym and at work and stuff like that. So

32:26

bring us to the day you got arrested. Was it

32:29

like a controlled by or how did that go down

32:31

or they just showed up at your doorstep? So

32:35

I was under investigation before. And

32:38

so I know that that

32:40

they were on me. But the time and

32:42

so they had like, I got

32:45

arrested maybe twice in the six

32:47

months before the last time. And so

32:49

it was like no charges for like, and

32:52

then for the five years of selling drugs and then right

32:54

there at the end, it was like bam, bam, bam

32:56

three times in like a two or three month period.

33:00

And the time right before

33:03

this guy had come over and

33:05

as soon as they left, it was him and his

33:07

friend, as soon as they left my

33:10

gut wrenched and I had never felt

33:12

that way in my life before. And so

33:14

but I couldn't think of like, I couldn't put my finger

33:16

on what made me feel that way. And

33:18

so as

33:20

soon as he left, I sent him some message

33:22

like, yo, is everything good? You know, like something

33:24

that was like kind of letting

33:26

him know or asking him like, what the fuck was

33:28

that? And I

33:31

went and hid everything. And

33:34

then three days later, I was like,

33:37

I was like, you're tripping, bro. It's

33:39

all good. And so I went and

33:41

picked it up from the hiding spot, I was

33:43

gonna go back to my place, cut it and then

33:45

go to Chapel Hill. And

33:49

as soon as I got out of my car, start walking

33:51

my place, like two people in plain clothes kind of start

33:53

walking towards me in the same time. They're like, you Rob

33:56

Eason. And I was like, it's

33:58

up. I was like, holy crap. And

34:00

that was it. And you

34:02

were what, 23? Already

34:05

graduated. So you were still selling right after college too.

34:08

I was about to go back to like a

34:10

college party and bring my load for

34:12

the weekend. And yeah.

34:16

Didn't go according to plan. Didn't show up

34:18

to that meet. So how did your parents

34:20

react when you got arrested? Dude,

34:25

it definitely broke their heart. My

34:28

parents were such good parents. And I think that, you

34:31

know, one of the things I had that not a lot

34:33

of guys have is I had a good support system. I

34:36

think that's why it's so important that guys

34:39

like us help build community around men

34:42

that are in or could potentially go in.

34:46

So my parents, like, they came to see me every

34:48

two weeks for the whole time. And

34:51

nobody else that I knew. None of my other friends, you

34:54

know, some of them wouldn't pick up the phone. I wrote

34:56

like 10 letters when I first in the jail. I don't

34:58

think I got any letters back. You

35:02

know, my friends were like straight edge college kids. I

35:04

had a huge chip in my shoulder. I don't blame

35:06

them because I was

35:09

asking for trouble, to be honest, and I shouldn't have been

35:11

doing what I was doing. So

35:14

my parents gave me that support. And

35:16

about a year and a half in, I remember I had

35:18

this huge change of heart. First year and a half, I

35:20

was like in the back of my mind thinking, you

35:23

know, I'm going to do everything I can to be successful. But

35:27

there's a strong chance I'm going to sell drugs on the side. Like

35:29

I knew that that's what I was going to do. A

35:31

year and a half in, I had a change of heart

35:33

where I was just like I

35:35

couldn't believe that I had embarrassed my parents like that. And

35:38

they were the only ones that cared and still came to

35:40

see me. And I was like, why

35:42

the hell am I risking my freedom

35:44

and embarrassing the only people that really

35:46

care? And I like and that was

35:48

it. And that was when I was like, I'm

35:51

going to make them proud. I'm going to get out and

35:53

do the right thing. And so I can

35:55

definitely like, you know, I don't

35:57

know what I would do if I didn't have that support system.

35:59

So most guys. guys in there don't. What's

36:02

your family situation? So

36:04

they visited. My parents are still together. They

36:06

were very supportive. My dad

36:08

went to every day of the trial. My

36:10

mom came when she can. It

36:14

was probably harder for my brother because he was young in

36:16

high school. I had just graduated high school, so he had

36:18

a lot of that pressure. Now

36:20

everything's different because now this has turned

36:23

into this big platform. So

36:25

it's funny

36:28

watching it evolve of all the people

36:30

that used to talk shit. You went

36:32

to prison, posting on

36:35

the downfall, and now it's like, we're

36:37

doing cool shit. Cool things are happening.

36:39

I was at a dinner last night

36:41

with Chevy Chase, and I'm like, this

36:43

is all because I went to prison.

36:46

So the thing that society is

36:48

so embarrassing, now I wear a

36:50

badge. So it's interesting, but

36:54

they came to visit me. I was in Danbury for

36:56

a little bit when I was in the shoe. Then

36:59

when I went to Wisconsin, my dad flew out there

37:01

for a weekend. That was probably the longest time I

37:03

was ever apart from my family because I only saw

37:05

him once in a year. Then my

37:08

mother and brother not at all that whole year. They

37:10

bet that was rough. It was definitely

37:12

rough. Those visits kind of...

37:16

Not only is it really good to you, but it's

37:20

like when your people

37:22

are coming to see you, it also looks good

37:24

to everybody else in the yard. I bet that

37:29

was a hard year. That's what I was

37:31

saying. Yes and no. In the feds, it

37:33

could be seen as a sign of weakness

37:36

too because people are scoping you out how

37:38

you react because you're in a big open

37:40

visiting room. In the camp, it's different. It's

37:42

all different, but I would talk

37:44

to them. I had a contraband

37:46

cell phone so I would FaceTime

37:48

them. Things of that nature.

37:51

When you look back on it, it feels

37:56

like a blur. When you're going through it,

37:58

it's like... It feels like forever.

38:01

Yeah, but then afterwards it was like a

38:03

dream. Yeah, it was what's such a small

38:05

piece of my life Yeah, like that's just

38:07

so far behind me. I got out five

38:09

years ago. I think now mm-hmm. You know

38:11

I did three years of probation That's

38:14

long. Yeah, I got off probation 2022

38:17

it's gonna be two years off probation 2022 so

38:19

that's five years out yeah,

38:22

I got I got out like seven years ago at this

38:24

point and For such a

38:26

long time it defines you like when you meet somebody

38:28

it's like You know what else are you

38:31

gonna talk about? But

38:33

now it's so far back I mean you

38:35

know people all the time and I'm very proud

38:37

of like this story like you said now It's kind of like

38:39

a badge. It makes it You

38:41

I've gone up against more adversity and been successful

38:44

and so it's a It's

38:46

a badge But

38:49

it took it took

38:51

a few years, but now it really is kind of like a

38:53

dream it's It's

38:57

It's almost it's almost history Yeah

38:59

I've realized doing this that a

39:01

lot of people have very interesting

39:03

stories because they've went through something

39:06

traumatic Like these individuals that

39:08

come on the show yeah, and there's a

39:10

power in that there really is because there's

39:12

so many people that Don't experience

39:14

like that that they just do their nine-to-five this

39:16

right so to give these individuals an opportunity To

39:19

be seen and to be heard and to tell

39:21

it no differently than a celebrity

39:24

going on a different podcast Mm-hmm,

39:26

you know cuz that's something I've been grappling with

39:28

do we want to go mainstream with celebrities this

39:30

and that but it's like I

39:32

don't think you need to because this is just

39:34

like this exclusive platform Solely

39:37

for people that aren't celebrity right maybe you have

39:39

one here and there that kind of fits a

39:41

brand But right if we could put I mean

39:43

we were just talking about that clip that did

39:45

14, right in views He doesn't

39:47

have a big following was he so was he

39:49

a prison guard or what did you do time

39:51

himself? No, he was I have everyone on my

39:54

show. Okay employees. I've had prosecutors. I've had lawyers

39:56

I just had my lawyer on okay coming out

39:58

in a couple weeks From

40:00

the trial and stuff, but it's

40:03

just it's it's it's so interesting You

40:05

know because there's nothing else like that

40:07

no where you can have a plus.

40:09

Yeah, you can have both sides and

40:11

just normal individuals Mm-hmm.

40:14

I think you're exploring the whole

40:16

impact of prison on society and

40:18

like all the people that are touched by it and

40:20

drugs and drugs, too and It's

40:23

it's important to have that full perspective And

40:29

you definitely you definitely a bar on a

40:31

lot of really cool guests in both sides

40:33

Yeah, every guest the story is different like

40:35

I get questions from friends and people and

40:37

they're like Do you do you think

40:39

it'll ever get old or repetitive or will you ever

40:41

run out of guests? Millions

40:44

of people are incarcerated then you have

40:46

millions more that have suffered from addiction

40:48

Yeah, so there's that that covers you

40:50

forever forever then the the next thing

40:52

is everyone has a different perspective Your

40:54

prison experience is gonna be way different than everyone

40:56

else's because you're your own person you have your

40:59

own thoughts you have your own experience Everything's

41:02

different and there's there's so

41:04

many like there's an unlimited amount of

41:06

just crazy funny stories From

41:09

prison for sure yeah, you're gonna get some

41:11

of the most interesting people and interesting stories

41:13

in that one little section of

41:15

the population It's not really a little section either

41:18

and I realized like I have this unique energy

41:20

with the people like the Rikers Island Lee

41:23

Roy's like I don't want to go on

41:25

anyone else's show because I just like that

41:27

chemistry Yeah, and I'm just like this I

41:29

don't know like I'm just like this unique individual

41:31

that sits and it's not afraid

41:33

to ask the questions But we get along and

41:36

I'm just I'm very easygoing. Yeah, you are and

41:38

I think I think You

41:41

and I kind of probably fall outside

41:43

of the normal Stereotype

41:46

for somebody that would do do a lot of time

41:48

as well But

41:50

people still are comfortable around you probably More

41:54

so than a lot of other potential podcasts.

41:56

I think it takes definitely somebody who's been

41:58

through it. Yeah I'm

42:00

understanding, you know, I'm not gonna, I think

42:02

people know by now I'm not gonna rip

42:04

them. Right. You know, and like

42:06

some podcasts, they just rip and they're looking for

42:08

the most salacious. I mean, I spend every interview

42:11

in the beginning just talking about the person's childhood

42:13

and getting to know them so the audience gets

42:15

to know them. Right. You see

42:17

some interviews, it's like, so did this person fuck

42:19

this person? Did this person do this? You know,

42:21

did he stab this person? Yeah. And

42:24

when you do it my way, you're able to get more out of it because they're just

42:27

calmly telling their experience.

42:30

It's a safe place to do that. Yeah. So

42:33

when you got arrested, did you get bond or were you

42:35

locked up right then and there? I had a $200,000 bond and

42:39

I knew that I was

42:41

gonna do the time and so I didn't feel like

42:43

it was even worth bailing out. Shortly

42:46

after I was in jail, speaking to the guys

42:48

in the pod, I was like, yep,

42:50

I'm either gonna snitch or I'm gonna do

42:52

three years. Like, you know, you're like, that's

42:54

what's gonna happen. I

42:57

had like seven drug felonies that I had been charged with.

43:00

Cocaine trafficking was the one that had the longest

43:02

mandatory minimum, which is the one you plea out

43:04

to. And so

43:07

they told me and the guys in the pod, they're like, yeah, no,

43:09

you're gonna do three years or you're gonna snitch. And I was like,

43:12

all right. And

43:14

that was definitely a super,

43:16

super impactful decision not to snitch on

43:18

anybody. I think if

43:21

I hadn't have come out of there with my integrity,

43:23

if I had that big F on my report card

43:26

and I had a strike against my integrity, things that have been

43:28

different, I think I would have had a lot less faith in

43:30

myself for one. Like

43:34

my business partner and I have no contracts and

43:37

we've been best friends for six years.

43:40

We do over six figures a

43:42

month in revenue and we've

43:44

never had any issues. Like

43:48

I 100% operate on my word and once you do

43:50

a bunch of time to keep your word good, it's

43:53

like, there's no way I'm gonna break

43:55

my word over anything else after that. Yeah,

43:58

I don't believe in contracts anymore. Yeah, because

44:00

I had so much bad experiences

44:02

with contracts It's

44:04

all about the person that's signing it, you

44:06

know, and there's always even with a contract

44:09

There's always room to renegotiate after and that

44:11

depends on the person like look at these

44:13

major artists like end of deals Mm-hmm They

44:15

could blow up a contract at any point

44:17

if they're unhappy and they went out So

44:19

that's why I look at it once you

44:21

once you even mentioned it So like once the

44:24

relationship is started whether you have a if you

44:26

have a contract in place the day you mention

44:28

the contract is the day when it's like

44:31

It's hard to come back from that. So the way that

44:33

me and my partner's work is Everything's

44:38

open to renegotiation to

44:40

a degree I Mean

44:43

I don't know. I guess you just kind of get a feel for it and how

44:45

to How

44:48

to operate without one, I don't

44:50

know if I'm right or wrong for it But

44:54

it's working out pretty well So

44:56

far with him certain certain situations, of

44:58

course, I'm not gonna build a house for somebody you're

45:00

install a solar system without a contract but When

45:03

you've known somebody for years and you're

45:05

able to just move more quickly on trust It

45:08

definitely speeds up everything for sure. So

45:10

describe that setting in prison because this

45:12

was Experience I

45:14

experienced and saw as this young white kid

45:16

where everyone's trying to give you an advice

45:18

as a first-time person Like kind

45:21

of hedging their bets on you know What

45:23

how much time you're gonna get what you

45:25

should do Everyone's a fucking attorney when you

45:27

get in there as this new person on

45:29

the block dude I remember

45:31

them talking about You

45:33

get so paranoid about people trying to snitch on you in

45:35

jail, too And so you like want to

45:37

debt you desperately want to ask for advice and be

45:39

like yo Like what's about to

45:42

happen here? But you're also you don't know the

45:44

setting you're in and even talking about what happened.

45:46

You're putting yourself in a lot of risk and

45:48

so I Remember,

45:51

I think I had like a frat boy comb over

45:53

the kind of when I

45:55

first went and I was like,

45:59

yo, I Everybody's kind of trying

46:01

to size me up. I'm trying to figure everything out.

46:03

I think I switched from a comb over to a mohawk

46:05

and almost immediately I was like I

46:08

need to do something to To

46:11

not look like that I currently look and

46:15

So you kind of like I found my

46:17

first, you know mentor or like older guy

46:19

who had respect in the pod his

46:22

name was Buddha or Gerald and

46:27

he kind of like took me under his wing and and

46:31

Kind of like showed me the ropes and I think That's

46:34

like where I first started to have

46:36

kind of mentors Once

46:38

I went to prison, I had a different mentor that kind of stuck

46:40

with me. It was the mark guy. I Was

46:43

mentioning earlier But

46:46

yeah, like did you have any prison mentors? Um,

46:48

yeah, I mean I think at first A

46:52

lot of guys I realized weren't in my best

46:54

interest I had one really good bunkmate that I'm

46:56

still in touch with this day cash Cash

46:59

was a second bunk but I had

47:01

one that his name's bolo He just

47:03

got out after serving a pretty long

47:05

sentence. I When

47:08

I look back on everything up until

47:10

the camp he was probably the only one that had

47:12

my best interest in mind He was trying to show

47:14

me the ropes, but you meet so many people that

47:17

Come off as your friend or this and that

47:19

and they're just not to be trusted or when

47:21

shit hits the fan They're not there for it

47:23

because at the end of the day and I

47:25

get it like you you're responsible for yourself And

47:28

there right no one's gonna come and save you

47:30

you have to look out for yourself And you

47:32

can't stick your neck out for someone for someone

47:34

else because it could affect your time right and

47:36

so people are weighing that And

47:38

they're weighing the options of whether they help you

47:40

whether they don't help you whether they get involved

47:43

whether they don't get involved And I get it,

47:45

you know, it's like in the real world, right?

47:47

Everyone's looking at something like do you want to let

47:49

this person in your circle? Do you not want to? Yeah,

47:52

I think It's

47:55

hard to figure out Who you

47:57

can trust in there for sure, especially in the beginning. It's

47:59

like It's extremely scary. You

48:03

know, trying to figure out who's trying to steal

48:05

from you, who's just trying to, you know, potentially

48:07

snitch on you. There's a million different things and

48:10

so, but you're also feeling very vulnerable. And

48:12

so it's natural to want to find like

48:14

a friend, but you're right at the end of the day.

48:18

In most cases, no one's gonna have your back. Even

48:20

if you're in a gang, like those guys still turn on each

48:22

other sometimes. I

48:25

think I was fortunate to find some

48:27

guys that I could rely on and I felt like did

48:30

have my back. And I was the type of guy that

48:32

would stand up for my friends too, especially if it was

48:34

something I was involved in at all. We

48:37

were in processing and the

48:41

guy that I was kind of hanging out with the most, it

48:44

was during count and we didn't

48:46

really realize how serious the guards would treat

48:50

people fucking around during count. And

48:52

so he like did

48:54

something stupid during count and then

48:56

they, we both did,

48:58

but they guards paid attention to him

49:00

and they

49:02

went down to the poker table, pulled the chips off

49:05

from under the tablecloth and they were like y'all

49:07

can blame him for that. And

49:09

so the guards leave knowing that now the

49:12

guys who were playing on the table were gonna go

49:14

after him for fucking up the game.

49:18

And everybody who was down on the table is now

49:20

like they're gonna point the finger and blame this guy

49:22

owes me. And so somebody

49:25

came up to him, they came up to me with a lock and

49:27

a sock and but

49:29

I knew I was partially responsible. So I stood up and

49:31

I was like you're gonna have to fight both of us

49:33

and the dude backed down. So

49:37

that's how I operated if I was involved. I'm gonna

49:39

hold my ground and be solid. Did

49:43

you ever have any situations where people didn't stand

49:45

up for you like that? Yeah all the time.

49:48

I mean I had a target on

49:50

my back because I wasn't really running with anyone. In

49:52

the Fed system there's a lot of politics. So,

49:54

you know, they were trying to extort me.

49:57

I was in getting myself in over

49:59

my head with gambling and trying to get

50:01

involved in shit I shouldn't have so There

50:04

was just a lot of that and I realized no

50:06

one really had my back So I kind of had

50:08

to figure it out with that How much

50:10

time did they end up giving you three three to

50:12

five three to five so I had to work off

50:15

two years, so You

50:18

know I made sure I was getting off enough time I

50:20

planned out the whole thing to make sure I got out

50:22

at my minimum I

50:24

got work release after a year and a half and

50:27

Then was like working in chicken plants

50:29

and sanitation I

50:32

got my first hernia working at a

50:35

flooring factory right

50:37

before I got out and In

50:39

there I got I was like promoted over

50:43

Citizens and management when I was in prison and

50:46

I was like Even though they

50:49

took every single bit of money that we make you

50:51

know It's still worth it to go out there one so

50:53

that you can say like I did as much

50:55

as I could while I was In there to the first person you're trying to

50:57

get a job from when you get out and

51:00

then two so you can get a phone Like

51:03

anything to not be in there all day So

51:05

how does that work are you working for a

51:07

real company like a privately owned business or are

51:10

these government jobs that they're sending? the inmates to

51:14

So in North Carolina if

51:16

you have like I think you have to have

51:18

at least somewhere close to three years

51:20

to qualify you have to be Infraction

51:23

free for like a year and a half and do like always

51:27

What do they call them program human

51:29

resource development classes where they're teaching you

51:32

when your alarm goes off That means you're supposed

51:34

to wake up. It's like what a joke

51:39

So once you get through that You

51:41

can get work release and so they'll ship out They'll

51:43

get a contract with a chicken plant or usually

51:45

it's with some job where they it's like the

51:48

worst possible job You could imagine like

51:50

90% of the people there even if they're

51:52

not in prison. They have some sort of violent felony

51:56

You're like working in chicken plant spraying like chemicals

51:59

on machines to clean this stuff off like

52:01

in a rain suit, clean like the

52:03

chicken guts. So they'll ship the

52:05

whole 30 inmates out there

52:07

every day. And

52:09

then some of these facilities, like

52:11

they'll have fences around at the

52:13

job, but some of them

52:16

they don't, and there's a little more freedom. And

52:18

so they'll ship you out there, you work your eight

52:20

hours or more, you get

52:22

paid a normal wage, like $10 an hour-ish. And

52:27

for me, even though they took all of that from my

52:29

drug fine, just getting like an

52:31

actual piece of fried chicken, instead

52:33

of a patty every day. And

52:38

just being able to get out of that camp was 100% worth

52:42

working for free, essentially. So you did all your

52:44

time in a North Carolina state prison? And

52:47

was it a camp or was it

52:49

a low security? What kind of facility?

52:51

We started at Brown Creek, which they

52:53

actually like last weekend, they tore Brown

52:55

Creek minimum down and they're using it

52:57

as a, I

52:59

think it's kind of like a, I may be wrong,

53:01

like a boarding school for people who's, for like kids

53:03

who don't, whose parents are incarcerated.

53:06

And so that facility is gone,

53:08

it was minimum, like one small fence in the

53:10

outside. People would definitely sneak

53:13

out for sure. And then

53:15

they moved us down the hill to a medium

53:17

facility that they converted into a minimum. So

53:20

even though it wasn't minimum, it still had like the

53:22

three layers of fences. So

53:25

yeah, it was minimum security. I never

53:27

had an infraction in there. So I

53:29

didn't end up in a medium or worse.

53:31

Now I don't know how it's tiered out

53:34

in terms of security in beds. Do

53:37

you have camp, minimum camp, which

53:39

are camps low, medium, high security,

53:41

and then the maximums or which

53:43

are like the one in Colorado

53:45

where they have like the terrorists

53:48

and those individuals. And

53:50

El Chapo is there too. That's like

53:53

below ground. That doesn't get any worse

53:55

than that. That's like the highest security

53:57

one possible. What kind of people were

53:59

you? I've

54:01

always heard this state is more like this than

54:03

feds because a lot of the violent stuff I

54:05

think falls state sometimes. So

54:08

like most of them

54:10

are going to be drug offenses and

54:12

then you're going to have rapists, murderers. There's

54:15

guys doing life that are in minimum security because they've

54:17

been on their best behavior for a long

54:19

time. So

54:22

in general you've got the whole

54:24

spectrum, but you've got mostly people who

54:27

have a considerable amount of

54:29

time and are unlikely to be

54:32

violent because they've already demonstrated for

54:34

a while that they won't. Of

54:36

course there's still crazy stuff

54:38

that happens. Remember one guy got

54:40

oil from the kitchen. They put it in the microwave and

54:42

poured it on this dude. And

54:45

it was a guy that I had almost gotten a fight with the week before that did

54:47

it and I was like, thank God,

54:49

I saw my face. So

54:52

there's all types of people. Is

54:55

feds more like white collar, less violent

54:57

stuff? Is that accurate? It depends. There

55:00

are violent crimes in the feds when

55:02

they're tied in with RICO cases and

55:04

stuff. You see more

55:06

murders in the state prisons. There are murders in

55:08

the feds if it's a part of a gang

55:11

and whatnot and it's gang related. A

55:13

lot of sex offenses, a lot of

55:15

fraud, and it's mostly drug

55:17

cases I would say. But that can encompass

55:20

violent individuals. A lot of times you'll see people

55:22

in the feds that are violent but they weren't

55:24

necessarily convicted on the murder but

55:26

they're caught up in a lot

55:28

of mob stuff and whatnot.

55:31

I didn't know there were a lot of sex offenses

55:34

in feds. No, people are surprised but you've got to

55:36

think it's internet. In this

55:38

world, maybe back in the day, it

55:40

was mostly state but now I would

55:42

say the majority of sex offender cases

55:44

when it's used over the internet is federal.

55:47

I think you see

55:50

now in states more like sexual assault

55:52

would be a state case because

55:54

that's within the state. But

55:57

if it's child pornography, anything like that, that's

55:59

in the federal. Yeah, 100% makes sense Yep

56:04

So the whole spectrum my my best friend

56:06

in there. His name was Mark Jones. He

56:09

He had done ten years before I met him. I think

56:11

he had Four left when

56:13

I met him and we did three together and

56:15

then he got out a year later and he was

56:18

in there for murder your

56:20

best friend The

56:24

thing is like a lot of people get

56:26

sucked into the the

56:28

world of drugs and the selling drugs

56:30

and then Things can

56:32

just take a left turn and you know You might have

56:34

thought you were doing what was right in the situation and

56:37

then all of a sudden guns are out You know what I mean? It's

56:41

just it's not a it's not a game where you can

56:45

Have any guarantee of stuff not going south and

56:48

so I think I'm fortunate that I was able

56:50

to get out before things got worse You

56:54

know, I've been robbed at gunpoint and been in

56:56

some situations that could have turned out much much

56:58

worse and so You

57:01

know and I had no desire to go hurt anybody I think

57:03

a lot of the guys are obviously some of them do some

57:05

of them do have natural

57:07

violent tendencies but

57:09

a lot of them just get sucked into

57:11

a world where you have to you

57:14

have to go make an example of somebody when they rob

57:16

you or Someone

57:18

robs you and you protect yourself and then you

57:20

end up in prison for a violent crime. I

57:24

Think in some states they drug trafficking is

57:26

considered a violent crime just because it kind

57:28

of comes with the territory I

57:32

Know you weren't really involved in that world But like you said,

57:34

there's a lot of guys that are in there for drugs and

57:36

they just didn't get caught for the violent Stuff. Yeah, I think

57:38

you'd see that all the time. Yeah, did they give you like

57:40

a nickname? I There

57:44

was one cuz I had kept cornbread

57:46

in my locker. They called me cornbread

57:50

I would like, you know,

57:52

you starve in there. They feed you like You

57:55

know your dinners at 4 p.m. And you

57:57

got to go from 4 p.m. To 4 a.m. Or something

58:00

something like that and so I would

58:02

always try to like have some corn bread in the locker

58:04

for 10 p.m. when I was dying

58:07

of hunger. You know you'd smuggle it out of the

58:09

chow hall mm-hmm trade

58:11

for it smuggle it out not just

58:13

corn bread but whatever it was

58:15

and you got like the southern accent a

58:17

little bit so I could see why that's

58:21

funny yeah did you have any name?

58:23

McLovin. Yeah and Squints from the Sandlot.

58:25

Yeah they got me with that and

58:28

some people call me Bieber too. Bieber?

58:30

Yeah. Yeah I think I got that

58:32

too. Yeah I can imagine you're like

58:34

this scrawny white kid that's young in

58:36

prison were you hustling it all in

58:39

there because you have like that entrepreneurial

58:41

mindset. I did in jail I started

58:43

trying to have my little store and so

58:45

I'd get like seven dollars a week from

58:48

my family and I was like seven dollars. Seven

58:50

dollars a week was like was a

58:52

lot in jail. Just seven like seven so I

58:54

got like seven ramen's to work with this week

58:56

yeah and so I'm like holy crap I'm gonna

58:58

be hungry as fuck and so yeah

59:00

of course we were like I started

59:03

trying to loan ramen's and then I have to

59:05

people owe me back and you learn quickly like

59:07

it puts you into a lot more risk and

59:11

situations because once again you end

59:13

up having to do things to

59:16

make sure that people don't think you can be taken advantage of

59:19

and so yeah I was hustling in that

59:22

way. In jail

59:26

not as much like I just are

59:28

in prison not as much I learned my lesson about that

59:30

in jail and then by the time I

59:32

was in prison the price of

59:35

ramen's drops down to like 30 cents

59:37

instead of a dollar. Were things a lot more

59:39

expensive in jail for you too? Everything's marked up

59:41

I mean Feds is like everything's more expensive though

59:43

right? Yeah like a Ben and Jerry's on the

59:45

street like an ice cream would be like six

59:47

or seven bucks in there. Soda, 12

59:50

pack would be like you know six

59:52

or seven bucks like everything was probably

59:54

50% to 75% marked up yeah especially

59:56

electronic shoes anything like that that you

59:58

could get on the street. Right,

1:00:00

it's all marked up. That's how they make

1:00:02

their mind in like the biggest bulk you

1:00:04

could possibly imagine Yeah, and he knows like

1:00:06

eight bucks like you know that's just they

1:00:08

get away with it But they sell me

1:00:10

I was shocked with how much name brand

1:00:12

stuff they sell in there Yeah, it's really

1:00:14

interesting on the commissary little debbies all of

1:00:16

that. You know it's super See

1:00:19

I think the problem with that is is that

1:00:22

The federal prison system is not really accurately

1:00:24

depicted in TV shows and whatnot orange is

1:00:27

a new black did a good job from

1:00:29

a Woman's perspective, but where's the

1:00:31

TV shows about like a men's prison camp.

1:00:33

You don't really see it The

1:00:36

only things I can think of they're not

1:00:38

like fictional. I think of like 60 days

1:00:40

in yeah, but that's state state Yeah, yeah,

1:00:42

that's state prison. It's jail actually I think

1:00:44

well because the feds are kind of notorious

1:00:46

and not really letting like producers and whatnot

1:00:48

in to see it You know yeah, so

1:00:50

it's interesting in that respect I

1:00:52

heard plenty of stories about the feds when I was in

1:00:54

in state But you're

1:00:57

right like I can't I can't think of a

1:00:59

TV show that depicts it very well Yeah guys

1:01:01

always talk about in the feds about the state

1:01:03

people and people that come from the state talk

1:01:05

about the feds It's kind of interesting like the

1:01:07

inner workings. Yeah, but I think I

1:01:09

mean it depends But I think for the most part you'd rather

1:01:11

be in fact. Yeah, that is state. You

1:01:13

know you like a bad really doing it So

1:01:19

what you're do you end up getting out I

1:01:21

got out in I think it

1:01:23

was the very end of 2017 And

1:01:25

what was your plan? so

1:01:29

When I got out. I knew that the

1:01:31

only way I could possibly make six figures

1:01:33

and in a legal job is gonna be sales

1:01:37

Sales will hire you if you're willing to dial

1:01:39

your ass off on the phones And

1:01:42

so I started busing tables and

1:01:44

uptown Charlotte Ruth's Chris

1:01:47

I got the job because I networked with a

1:01:49

guy who'd done fed time for laundering

1:01:51

money for the cartel He owns three Ruth's

1:01:53

Chris's He didn't snitch they

1:01:55

gave him some Ruth's Chris's when he got out or something like

1:01:57

that and So

1:02:00

I was busing tables and he was like you know,

1:02:02

I'll let you be a manager one day. I was like,

1:02:04

okay That's 50 grand a year, you know So

1:02:08

I just went into sales too. So during the

1:02:10

day I do cold calling In

1:02:14

my and I worked for web.com. It took me a

1:02:16

long long time to get that job still finally

1:02:19

got it and Then

1:02:21

in my second month, I

1:02:23

was like number one and it was the biggest digital

1:02:25

marketing firm in the world at the time You've probably

1:02:27

heard of web.com. They sponsored the PGA tour and

1:02:31

So that was like the first time I was like, you

1:02:33

know, thank God It was one my second, you know, probably

1:02:35

been out three four months and I was

1:02:38

like, okay I'm really good at something and like I know

1:02:40

it now and so it was like the first glimmer of

1:02:42

hope So I

1:02:44

did so like I had the multi-prong I was like

1:02:46

I'm gonna try to get this manager job and serving

1:02:48

if I have to and I'm gonna also Work

1:02:51

this other job and see if I can make it in sales.

1:02:54

And so I've always kind of had two things going Until

1:02:58

until one of them pops off so like I

1:03:00

started I kept in sales I probably made like

1:03:02

80k my first year out legally and I

1:03:07

stayed number one while I opened my solar

1:03:09

company and I

1:03:13

didn't quit until I had a bunch of money coming in from solar

1:03:15

I broke the all-time sales

1:03:18

record at my day job and then

1:03:20

I quit the next day because I also had like 20

1:03:22

grand coming in from solar and

1:03:26

That's that was how it started. Yeah, you know

1:03:28

You told me out there before we sat down

1:03:30

that you had became an entrepreneur a few years

1:03:32

ago But really you you had that in you

1:03:34

the whole time. Yeah, I mean you were an

1:03:37

entrepreneur when you were selling drugs You're

1:03:39

an entrepreneur you had that mindset of always

1:03:41

to figure it out Mm-hmm, and you did

1:03:43

that after prison like some people are able

1:03:45

to go through Immense of

1:03:47

amounts of shit and still figure out a

1:03:50

way to to be successful from

1:03:52

that It's crazy because I think

1:03:54

that it helped me to have my options limited down

1:03:56

It was like sales is now like this is your

1:03:58

shot. And so it's like I

1:04:02

no longer played as if I had a, as

1:04:04

if failure was an option or as if there

1:04:06

was a plan B. It was like, this is

1:04:08

it, bro. You know, are you gonna win

1:04:10

or not? And so

1:04:12

I think having my back against the wall helped. And

1:04:15

then I always dreamed of the moment

1:04:17

where I'd reach a point where the

1:04:19

prison story would be a badge, where it would actually take me

1:04:21

further. And

1:04:24

so that's the

1:04:26

kind of thing that you're kind of afraid to let yourself believe.

1:04:29

But I'm glad I chose to because, you know, it worked

1:04:32

out in the long run. Is there ever

1:04:34

a world where you think that you wish you got into

1:04:36

what you're doing now right after high

1:04:38

school and at Skip College did that? And then,

1:04:40

you know, because you see a lot of young

1:04:43

tech or startup companies or anything like that,

1:04:45

they're doing it at that young age. You

1:04:47

see it all the time online. I

1:04:52

don't think that I ever could have. I

1:04:56

guess so. Yeah, I wish that I had been able

1:04:58

to connect with better mentors where I could have been

1:05:00

like, that dude's lifestyle sick. I believe

1:05:03

that that's not a scam, you know, and

1:05:06

just gone into it more easily. I think that if I

1:05:08

had had a better way of finding

1:05:10

a role model like that, that it could have

1:05:12

been different for me. And yeah, that would

1:05:14

have been great. But my story

1:05:16

is, you know, what makes me who I am. I

1:05:19

love that I've stood up against that kind of adversity

1:05:21

and won. And now

1:05:24

that I've come through it for sure, like, I don't think

1:05:26

I would change it if I could not. If

1:05:29

I could just switch change right now, no, I

1:05:31

prefer to have done it the way that

1:05:33

I have. What's your relationship with your parents

1:05:35

now? It's good, bro. That's

1:05:38

part of why I came back to North Carolina. So

1:05:41

I spent the last two years in Miami and L.A.

1:05:43

for the last six months. And

1:05:47

then I eventually was like, yo, my

1:05:49

businesses are doing great online. Like, online is where

1:05:51

I meet my best clients. They come to me

1:05:53

for what I offer. I'm not just meeting them

1:05:55

out and trying to convince them to

1:05:57

use my service when they didn't show interest in the first

1:05:59

place. And so after two

1:06:01

years of seeing like that

1:06:04

that wasn't benefiting the business and it was more just

1:06:06

for fun I was like, I'm gonna come back

1:06:08

home with some more time with family and

1:06:12

My mom still works in a halfway house for

1:06:14

women. She started doing that when I was in

1:06:16

prison So women that are getting out of or

1:06:19

about to get out of prison or have just gotten out She

1:06:23

helps take care of them And so

1:06:25

I love to be here and spend time with

1:06:27

them And I think it's like the least I can do

1:06:29

for all the shit that I put them through. Yeah, has

1:06:31

your felony Become

1:06:34

an obstacle at all or a challenge in

1:06:37

your life For

1:06:39

sure, I mean it made it harder to get a

1:06:41

job I think one of the hardest things to overcome

1:06:43

was getting a being able to rent a place

1:06:47

We had this like penthouse in Miami and I'm still like

1:06:49

I'm not on the lease So like

1:06:51

I'm like coming in through the parking deck And

1:06:54

you know, it sucks to be that successful and still fuck

1:06:56

you have to hide But

1:07:00

especially with apartments like you can't do anything about

1:07:03

that building's policy There's

1:07:06

no one you can talk to that's gonna get you a leg up

1:07:08

there so a lot of us You know, we have

1:07:10

to wait until we go and I can

1:07:12

sneak around until then But

1:07:15

finally I actually I did

1:07:17

get my name on a place approved for an

1:07:19

actual apartment Yesterday I

1:07:21

got the approval I was like it was a

1:07:24

huge relief first time I've actually gotten approval

1:07:26

from like a a company to

1:07:28

live in their building Since I've

1:07:30

been out ten years ten ten years since

1:07:32

my felony Yeah, something I realized is that

1:07:34

it's worse to have a state felony on

1:07:36

your record than a federal really a lot

1:07:39

of these apartment applications or

1:07:42

jobs They're searching federal

1:07:45

I mean they're searching state felonies for

1:07:47

that state and then they're searching

1:07:49

federal like Sex offender registry crimes. Yeah, so

1:07:51

when I do background checks for apartments and

1:07:53

stuff my stuff never really comes up I

1:07:56

still disclose it because they ask you ever

1:07:58

been convicted of a felony, but and you

1:08:00

see the background report, it doesn't come up.

1:08:02

It's interesting. I haven't seen the full report.

1:08:04

I'll ask them, because I did tell them

1:08:06

when I was applying. But

1:08:09

it didn't say anything about it on my approval letter. It

1:08:12

said you've been conditionally approved and you need to verify your

1:08:14

identity, which I had already done. But

1:08:18

they didn't say anything about it. And so I know

1:08:21

one time I applied and they just didn't see it, because

1:08:23

it's like 10 traffic

1:08:27

citations and then one traffic

1:08:29

gang. And I'm not sure if they

1:08:32

just didn't see it because it blended in or what.

1:08:36

But yeah, man, it's a huge relief.

1:08:38

And I think that there

1:08:41

should definitely be more firm laws

1:08:43

in place to where, I

1:08:45

know some states have it where they can't see, they

1:08:47

only let you go back seven years on those applications.

1:08:51

But that's a huge barrier for people.

1:08:53

And being forced to sneak around even once

1:08:55

you've done everything right, it

1:08:58

just sucks, bro. You just wanna be accepted and be able

1:09:00

to have the same freedoms as everybody else when

1:09:03

you've earned it. Yeah, well, do you want people to

1:09:05

take away from your story when they look back on

1:09:07

it, when they hear it? It's

1:09:09

gonna be around for years and years to come.

1:09:12

Did you get to tell your story? Did

1:09:15

you get to write it? You get to write the ending. You always

1:09:17

get to write the ending. And then what

1:09:19

good story doesn't have some shit in

1:09:21

the beginning? You're not gonna be able to write anything

1:09:23

impactful or do any

1:09:25

inspiring without having the shit. And

1:09:28

so I would encourage people to remember that

1:09:30

they can always write that story. And

1:09:34

then to find

1:09:36

mentors that can help you figure out how to

1:09:38

start a business and not to forget that there

1:09:41

are success stories. It

1:09:44

would be the main thing that I'd hope people would remember.