0:01

From the Alexa in your kitchen to the Smart TV

0:03

in the bedroom, you've got smart

0:05

devices peppered all over the house. So wouldn't it

0:07

make sense to place the best tech in every

0:09

part of your home? The

0:11

Numi 2.0 is Kohler's most advanced toilet

0:13

to date, with a sculptural design that

0:16

elevates it beyond a household object. With

0:18

advanced technology to bring you the finest

0:20

in personal comfort and cleansing, it offers

0:22

personalized setting, from ambient-colored lighting and built-in

0:25

audio speaker system to a heated seat

0:27

with hands-free opening and closing. It's

0:30

more than a toilet. It's a work of art. Learn

0:33

more at kohler.com. In

0:38

2022, Team Milk came together by sponsoring

0:40

female marathon runners for the marathon in

0:42

New York City. Today,

0:45

they're more than 20,000 strong. In

0:48

2024, Team Milk is making

0:50

an even bigger commitment to female runners and

0:53

launching the only women's marathon in the U.S. designed

0:56

for and by women. The

0:58

inaugural Every Woman's Marathon will take place

1:00

in Savannah, Georgia on November 16, 2024.

1:04

You can learn more and register

1:06

for the marathon at everywomensmarathon.com. Hello

1:23

and welcome to the Long Form Podcast.

1:26

I'm Aaron Lamer, here with

1:28

my co-hosts Max Linsky and Evan

1:30

Ratliff. Hey-oh. Hey, you

1:32

guys. Aaron, who's on the program

1:35

this week? I just got off this call

1:37

literally like 45 seconds ago. It's

1:40

fresh, man. It's fresh in

1:42

my mind. I talked to Zach Harris.

1:45

So sadly, there aren't as many features as they were

1:47

when we started this show, but there's still some.

1:51

And I read one and I was just

1:53

like, this is great. I should just have this

1:55

person. I don't know anything about them. It was Zach

1:57

Harris. He wrote this

1:59

Rolling Stone. stone feature about

2:02

this bowler who

2:04

few things about him. He bowls two

2:07

handed. He's an insurgent on the tour,

2:09

uh, who could

2:11

become the greatest bowler of all time. And

2:15

unlike a lot of people on the

2:17

PABA tour, he's not like the son

2:19

of a famous bowler, he grew up

2:21

in like pretty rough circumstances in Texas

2:24

and basically was like abandoned to the

2:26

bully alley as a child, uh, as

2:28

a form of like childcare. He's

2:30

a really interesting character for a story and

2:32

really kind of put me in a world

2:35

in a way where I was like,

2:37

I didn't know anything about bowling or

2:40

Vegas or tournaments or anything. And it

2:42

really stuck with me. So I wanted

2:44

to talk to him about that. He

2:46

covers weed, he covers skateboarding and now

2:48

he's covering bowling. So really fun conversation.

2:50

Zach Harris. The

2:52

big beats, the Aaron Lamer beats. You can

2:55

see how I, how I ended up doing

2:57

this interview and enjoying it a lot. It

2:59

sounds like a little bit of like a

3:01

throwback episode. And it reminds me of a

3:03

throwback article that, uh, Michael Mooney article in

3:05

D magazine, you guys remember that? It's like,

3:07

uh, I think it's called the most amazing

3:09

bowling story ever or something like

3:11

that. Oh, yes. The bowling magazine

3:14

feature. Does it ever miss? There

3:17

could be no sport that

3:19

I feel like has a higher hit

3:21

rate than bowling of, if

3:23

you felt like you needed to write a

3:25

feature story about this, I want to read

3:28

that feature story. Exactly. If

3:30

it hit the bar, it's worth reading. I

3:32

almost, I was just thinking if I should

3:34

try and brainstorm more, because if I say

3:36

them, then they'll appear in the show notes

3:38

and people can read them, but we'll try

3:40

and find the long form bowling tag archive

3:43

and link to that. There's got to be at least one

3:45

other class. We

3:47

make this show with the fine people at Vox. Thanks

3:49

very much to them. And now

3:51

here's Aaron with Zach Harris. Welcome,

4:00

Zach Harris. Hey, thanks for having me.

4:02

I'd love to talk about bowling with

4:04

you a little bit. I guess I

4:06

could start with what is your personal

4:09

relationship to bowling? Where

4:11

are you on the bowling spectrum? I'm

4:13

in bowling, they call it

4:15

a house hack. I bowl three

4:18

leagues right now. I bowl a lot. It's a

4:20

lot of bowling. A lot of bowling, okay. But

4:22

I kind of look at it in the same way that, you

4:26

know, 30 year olds play golf or tennis in

4:28

the same way where you're like, oh yeah, now

4:30

I have a little bit money to like buy

4:32

the gear that I want. I have a little

4:34

bit of time and energy to like go do

4:36

the things. And I have some friends around me

4:38

who are also in the same place in life

4:40

looking for something fun to do. And

4:44

I'd always bold as a kid. I mean,

4:46

I always say that starting

4:48

in, I believe it was middle school, but all

4:50

the way through high school, they would on the

4:52

last week of school give out little key chains

4:54

that said say no to drugs, say yes to

4:56

bowling. That gave you two free

4:59

games and a free shoe rental every day

5:01

at the local bowling alley because they needed

5:03

to stay in business and kids bought hot

5:05

dogs and extra games and went to the

5:07

arcade. And so me and my brother

5:09

would wake up every morning and not really

5:11

say no to drugs, but we would say yes to

5:13

bowling and we would drive over the bowling alley and

5:16

bowl two games every single day all summer long. And

5:18

so it was kind of, you know, fun.

5:21

I like doing it, but I didn't really get

5:23

into it or buy my own equipment until my

5:26

late twenties, early thirties.

5:28

I'm going to hit you with some naive questions here.

5:30

We love it. Like when you look

5:32

at a pro bowler and like

5:34

yourself or let's even say like

5:36

the aces in your league, like

5:39

how much divide is there? You

5:41

know, everyone's like doing

5:43

the same thing. I amateurs throw some

5:45

pretty good games. You guys rolling in

5:48

the two hundreds. How far do you

5:50

go 77 last night? Wow.

5:54

And I would never, ever,

5:56

ever dare dream of. during

6:00

a tournament against guys like Simon Sinner, the guys

6:02

who I was talking to of this article. Okay,

6:04

no, I mean, so the difference when it comes

6:06

to I mean, it was a line that got

6:08

cut from the article, but that gap is grand

6:10

can in life between like your average best bowler

6:13

in your house and the guys who are actually

6:15

out on tour winning money at the PBA. I

6:18

think that was actually something with this article. There

6:20

was a draft that was about double in length

6:23

that went into

6:25

very detailed depth about

6:28

pro bowling and the modern bowling game and

6:31

how lead bowling interacts

6:34

with pro bowling. So

6:36

the whole thing with bowling is it

6:38

is based on invisible oil patterns that

6:41

you cannot see. And so

6:43

we all know that there's oil on the lane. You don't want to step

6:45

on the lane and slip, but the way

6:47

they lay the oil out completely changes how

6:49

the ball moves. And

6:51

so that's why you have so many different bowling

6:54

balls. And that's why you have so many different

6:56

bowling styles, because you're always trying to find a

6:58

way to combat the oil that you can't see.

7:01

And so like guys like Simon

7:04

Sinner, who it feels like can see

7:06

the oil that you cannot see have

7:08

another superpower for being able to play

7:10

these lanes in ways that like, I

7:13

simply cannot because it is not something I

7:15

know how to do in the same way.

7:18

I was a fascinating detail and I had

7:20

never considered that like, these

7:22

pro games are played in the

7:24

same alleys. It's like,

7:27

you know, it would be like if

7:29

Steph Curry showed up at your LA

7:31

fitness for the NBA finals. Like there's

7:33

no difference between a pro and an

7:36

amateur lane. And so pros have to

7:38

learn to navigate pretty subpar

7:40

equipment. Yeah, that

7:42

is true. And that's even

7:45

before you get to like I was saying

7:47

the different lane patterns where at league where

7:49

eyeball the oil pattern is built

7:51

to be easy. And where

7:53

they're bowling, it is built to be incredibly difficult.

7:55

And if you miss by an inch, your ball

7:57

is going to jump over to the gutter. or

8:00

it's not going to hook at all. Whereas the

8:02

way they laid the oil out for

8:05

us househacks and everyone else who bowls

8:07

league on Tuesday across the country, it's

8:10

made to kind of funnel it right into the

8:12

pocket to give those big scores like I scored

8:14

last night. But yes, also there

8:17

are no major league bowling stadiums. So it

8:19

makes it a lot harder for these guys

8:21

to know what

8:23

the conditions will be on every

8:26

house. And I mean, there are a lot of guys, Simonson

8:28

included and just tons of guys on tour who

8:30

are literal bowling alley encyclopedias. And

8:33

if you talk about the high number side

8:35

of the house in Kokomo

8:39

at the bowling center in Kokomo that

8:41

they've bowled for PBA tournaments on in the

8:43

last five years, they know that lane 15

8:46

hooks a little bit more than lane 16. And

8:49

that if you're going down to lane one, you better

8:51

move a little bit right because it's not going to

8:53

hook at all or whatever. You know what I mean?

8:55

And they've all got these notes

8:58

and encyclopedic addict memories

9:01

of bowling centers. It's

9:03

very goofy in like the most endearing way

9:06

possible. So if you can bowl a

9:08

277, which is

9:10

still kind of blowing my mind, the

9:13

reason that you would never feel

9:15

like you were anywhere near the competitive level,

9:18

like a pro level is

9:20

a sense of consistency. It's like how

9:22

often you can throw a 277? Well,

9:25

and on different conditions. It's all about

9:27

the conditions. And so my 277 was

9:29

thrown on a eight foot hoop if

9:32

you want to do basketball or a

9:35

mini golf range. If we're

9:37

talking, I mean, you know, maybe not a mini

9:39

golf range, but like your

9:41

easiest mutiny hole where you can

9:44

hit the green if you strike

9:46

a good drive or whatever, you know,

9:49

golfers and bowling, they're very similar. Bowlers

9:51

love to use golf analogies. I

9:55

mean, this is kind of a good introduction

9:57

to Stuff you write about in

9:59

general. In are also you also

10:01

write about skateboarding. You write about

10:04

weed and it feels like you

10:06

really really like wanna write about

10:08

things you know a lot about.

10:10

Like you know more about bowling

10:12

than anyone I've ever talked to.

10:15

Add a lot of that knowledge

10:17

Actually, as you said isn't in

10:19

the article. But. It's like

10:21

a has the feeling of. People.

10:24

Are willing to talk to you at a high level,

10:26

Because. You're like deep in that world you

10:29

could not have gotten to that level of

10:31

bowling knowledge in the like week prepping for

10:33

the story. One I never would have been

10:35

able to piss the story if I didn't

10:37

know mole and and that's I guess where

10:39

I've come from as not. Ever

10:41

been on staff at a magazine? I've

10:43

been. You. Know on staff

10:46

places where I'm writing aggregated news throughout

10:48

the mid twenties hands and then if

10:50

it was like I wanted to write

10:52

something fun or different or a feature

10:54

profile, I had actually hit it. And

10:56

think of something that. Not.

10:58

Only appeal to me but would appeal

11:00

to a wider audience and so finding

11:02

the parts of the things that I'm

11:04

interested in. That might appeal to

11:07

a wider audience I think has always

11:09

been. I. Guess my

11:11

only avenue to get published in

11:13

Rolling Stone. Her eyes as longer

11:15

features are profiles that aren't just.

11:18

The. Simple. Newsy,

11:20

aggregated kind of bullshit that.

11:23

Internet writing has become. Too.

11:25

I mean thinking about this is kind of like

11:27

as a practical show for people who want to

11:30

do this kind of stuff like we're pitching. Something.

11:32

Like this bowling story. To. An

11:35

editor who may have like only

11:37

birthday party experience National Lane. What

11:39

is your sort of like strategy

11:42

for communicating like snow? Actually this

11:44

guy is like a big deal.

11:46

Like this is like the Patrick.

11:49

My home's a railway. This generation.

11:51

I. Mean of Simon sin this one. If. the

11:54

guy again this piece was six thousand words but

11:56

then you us into a magazine and so then

11:58

they goes down the thousand words and they-

12:01

Hey look, if you want to post the full

12:03

version, we'll link to it in the show now.

12:05

Never. I think the edits were very good and

12:07

I think it was well done and I don't

12:09

think people really want that much inside baseball about

12:12

bowling. And I think that was funny because I

12:14

thought that people might and then when you got down

12:16

to it's like, oh no, this is just a regular

12:19

sports story about a sports superstar in the way that

12:21

you would at Patrick Mahomes or anything else. And

12:24

so I thought it was really fun that the editors

12:26

focused that way as opposed to trying to make

12:29

it seem like bowling was something you needed to

12:31

learn about. They kind of approached it as, well

12:33

people know what bowling is, we'll just tell this

12:36

guy's story. But I approached

12:38

it in my pitch as, so

12:42

I guess I don't know how much you know

12:44

about Detroit rap music, but- I've listened to a

12:46

little Iceware Vezzo, but- Yeah,

12:49

so you will know well that

12:51

the Cartier Buff sunglasses, the Buffalo

12:53

Horn sunglasses from Cartier are

12:55

very big in Detroit rap music. And

12:59

Anthony Simonson has a bunch of friends out

13:01

in Detroit and during the Masters

13:03

last year, which was held right outside of Detroit,

13:05

one of the larger, no five

13:07

major tournaments in the PVA season, he

13:10

was leading the whole way. He only

13:13

had to win one game in the

13:15

final TV show to take home the

13:17

whole thing. And he did. And as

13:19

soon as he won it on live TV,

13:21

his group of buddies sitting just off camera

13:23

presented him a pair of Cartier Buff sunglasses

13:26

and he did a gladiator

13:28

hold his hands up kind of

13:30

celebration on live TV. And

13:33

I as a bowling PVA fan was

13:35

like, who's this guy? And

13:40

you do a little more research. And there

13:42

had been things written about his tough

13:44

family life before there was a small

13:47

documentary that a bowling publication

13:49

did about his tough

13:51

childhood that like kind of touched on the surface

13:53

of things, but was really well done. And

13:56

so connecting his kind of pop culture

13:58

status with like- You

14:00

know, this kid's 26 and has won

14:02

more than anyone else in an American

14:04

pro sports league, and

14:06

he's doing cool things like connecting to

14:08

the Detroit rap scene. And he came

14:10

up in a way that most sports

14:12

superstars don't these

14:14

days because they've got coaches since they were 13

14:17

and have been specialized by their helicopter

14:19

parents, and he kind

14:22

of came from a hard scrabble life and didn't

14:24

really have support from his parents and just kind

14:26

of figured it out on his own, but was

14:28

the best in the world by 25. And

14:32

so presenting it, like I said, kind of

14:34

just like a more traditional sports story with

14:36

those Detroit pop

14:38

culture music connections for

14:40

Rolling Stone. And I don't

14:43

know, I'm lucky because I've known

14:46

a lot of editors through

14:48

skateboarding. And so Jeff at Rolling

14:50

Stone, I've known through Skate Twitter

14:52

and skateboarding milieu, we've written for

14:54

vice about skateboarding in the past

14:56

and like, you know, been around

14:58

the same circles of skateboarding. And

15:02

so it felt reasonable to be like, hey, you

15:04

heard about this bowling stuff? And to my surprise,

15:06

they were like, yeah, let's do it. We

15:16

all need an upgrade every once in a

15:18

while, whether it's that outdated car in your

15:20

garage or that cell phone that you bought

15:22

over three years ago, it's good to have

15:24

the best technology around and great news because

15:26

now you can have the most advanced technology

15:28

in the privacy of your own home. The

15:31

new me 2.0 is Kohler's most advanced

15:33

toilet to date with a sculptural design

15:35

that elevates it beyond the household object.

15:38

The smart toilet combines unmatched aesthetics with

15:40

cutting edge technology to bring you the

15:42

finest and personal comfort and quenching. It

15:45

offers personalized settings that let you fine

15:47

tune every option to your exact preferences

15:49

from ambient colored lighting and a built

15:51

in audio speaker system to the heated

15:53

seat with hands free opening and closing.

15:55

Plus the new me 2.0 comes equipped

15:57

with power saver mode for energy efficient.

16:00

emergency flush for power outages, so you don't

16:02

have to worry about wasted energy. Connecting

16:05

you to an oasis of cleanliness and

16:07

comfort, the Numi 2.0 can revolutionize your

16:09

bathroom, making it more than

16:11

a toilet. It's a work of art.

16:15

Learn more at kohler.com. Calling

16:21

all female runners, it's time to lace

16:23

up and join Team Milk. Since

16:26

the 2022 New York City Marathon,

16:28

Team Milk has sponsored female marathon

16:30

runners nationwide, providing

16:32

support and shining a spotlight on

16:34

their unique stories, perseverance and drive

16:37

to go the distance. While

16:39

milked, berry milk is

16:41

an excellent nutritional add for both marathon

16:44

training and recovery. Milk contains

16:46

13 essential nutrients, including high-quality protein,

16:48

making it a crucial component of

16:50

a training diet. Plus, it's one

16:52

of the best beverages for hydration,

16:54

even better than water. The

16:57

same electrolytes that are added to many

16:59

of your favorite sports drinks are found

17:01

naturally in milk. And in

17:03

2024, Team Milk is taking the next

17:05

step to empower female runners. By

17:07

launching the only women's marathon in the

17:09

U.S. designed for and by women. Built

17:12

to be accessible, empowering and community-building,

17:14

the inaugural Every Woman's Marathon will

17:17

take place in Savannah, Georgia on

17:19

November 16, 2024. You

17:22

can learn more and register for the

17:25

marathon at everywomensmarathon.com. Thinking

17:38

about some of the stuff about Simon Sence

17:40

Childhood that's in the article. There's a kind

17:42

of like a sports cliche that you see

17:44

out there. I feel like I identify it

17:46

a lot with like the NFL draft where

17:48

you just kind of see like all the

17:51

like terrible shit that's happened to people before

17:53

they got drafted. I mean, it's like a

17:55

lot of like a lot

17:57

of like really, really tough stuff, but it's

17:59

all about it. often sort of presented as

18:01

like, like, he overcame this to

18:04

like, become like a second world champion.

18:06

And in some ways, I

18:08

think this piece really describes

18:10

Simon Senn's childhood, not as like something

18:12

he like overcame, but like, you

18:14

know, it's sort of what like made him like

18:17

the 10,000, probably 100,000 hours at

18:22

the lane as a child because he, you

18:24

know, his parents were working and really take

18:26

care of him. It's like, hey, kind

18:28

of makes sense that that guy is the Patrick from

18:30

my home. So he put in more out like, no

18:33

normal child could have bold this much. Well,

18:36

as part of my pitch, that was,

18:38

I mean, from the

18:40

outside looking in at the PBA, there are

18:42

a bunch of family names that have kind

18:44

of carried through the PBA for generations. And

18:47

so my kind of part of the pitch

18:49

was what seems like there's a little family

18:52

legacy and this kid Simon Senn didn't have

18:54

that and came out of nowhere to compete

18:56

with all these guys who we

18:58

know their dad's name and we've seen their

19:00

whatever, the whole legacy. And

19:03

he was like, when I brought that up to him,

19:05

I was like, No, I spent just as much time

19:07

as their kids in a bowling alley that they ever

19:09

could have it had nothing to do with that. Like,

19:12

it's about time and access to a bowling

19:14

alley. And he had that just as much

19:16

as anyone, even though his parents weren't around

19:18

to actually coach him with it. Yeah,

19:21

I mean, there's a quality about

19:23

writing about class in

19:26

America, where it's like, almost

19:28

we can only write about class like I'm

19:30

like, he's like a Nepo baby, or he

19:33

had like, the most impoverished

19:36

childhood possible. And there's a

19:38

whole spectrum of American class

19:40

that is not exactly either

19:42

of those things. Absolutely. Yeah.

19:45

And I think he definitely fits into that,

19:47

even though he may be way further on

19:49

the dirt for

19:51

grew, you know, whatever hard

19:53

scrabble lifestyle thing, but he

19:56

still loved his parents and he still saw his parents all

19:58

the time. And he's still like, yeah, brother was

20:00

going through addiction, but he was there for his brother and

20:02

like all these things where it's like, yeah, it wasn't. Yeah,

20:05

I know. There's so many levels to it. **Matt Stauffer**

20:08

When you're in person doing like a story like

20:10

this, so you're like, you fly to Vegas, you're

20:13

hanging. Like, how are

20:15

you behaving while you're hanging?

20:17

**Matt Stauffer** Oh, I'm good at hanging out. That's

20:20

like my strong suit in life is hanging out.

20:22

And so it's hard with him because at like, you

20:24

know, from the time I touched down, I mean, so

20:27

going back, he was very hard to get a hold

20:29

of, which was very, I

20:31

mean, didn't make sense to me because he is

20:33

a professional bowler. And I'm like, you want to be

20:35

featured in Rolling Stone. And he just wasn't

20:37

texting me back. And

20:40

like I had gotten to his number through his like the

20:42

guy at his brand. And I had talked to a couple

20:45

of the other biggest pro bowlers in the

20:48

country. And they were like,

20:50

you know, I'll talk on background stuff about bowling, but

20:52

I don't want to talk about Anthony

20:54

until he's agreed to do the story.

20:56

And I was like, yeah, sounds good. No problem.

20:58

We'll reconnect later after this. But like, also next time

21:00

you see him, like tell him to hit me up.

21:03

And I did that maybe three times. And

21:05

he still didn't respond to any of my texts. And

21:09

then it was right after the season ended. He

21:11

started responding was like, oh, yeah, sure. No problem. And

21:13

it was just like a full disconnect

21:16

between when the PBA season was going on and

21:18

afterwards. And he was just like, okay, now my

21:20

mind is clear from these things. Sure, no problem.

21:24

But even landing in Vegas, he's a pretty

21:26

spotty texter. So I was like, sure,

21:28

hope I can get in contact

21:30

and get next to him sometime in the next

21:32

four days. But as soon as I

21:35

landed, he was like, yo, where are you? Like,

21:37

let's hang out. And

21:39

so yeah, I feel like the idea that you

21:42

can just hang out. And I set aside

21:44

time for some interviews. And that

21:46

was kind of the hardest to like

21:48

get him to sit down and go through

21:50

the hard stuff from childhood and like really

21:52

do like sit down recorded interviews. I

21:55

think we did two, three hours at a time, right?

21:57

Two hours at a time. So we did really sit

21:59

down and go into stuff. But he

22:02

was great. And so for the four days that I

22:04

was there, I was pretty much just hanging out with

22:06

him, him and his girlfriend, him and his buddies the

22:08

whole time I was there. And like

22:10

I said, I'm pretty good at hanging out. So whether

22:13

it's just bowling or hanging out in his buddy's house

22:15

watching UFC, I can get along.

22:17

But I try not to do

22:20

too much while hanging out, because I knew

22:22

I had the interviews planned. And so I'd

22:24

be asking questions. And I generally had the

22:27

recorder on and told him as much. But

22:30

I was focused on the interviews as the

22:32

recording and just kind of letting the hanging out

22:34

happen. Yeah, I feel like

22:36

in general, people I know, who are who are

22:39

good hangs who are good at hanging out are

22:41

kind of like, good at being

22:43

in the moment and not like trying to

22:45

get too much out of the moment. Is

22:48

it difficult for you to like, remember

22:51

those moments when you go back to

22:53

it? Like, there's the act of like,

22:55

actually being good at hanging kind of

22:57

like mean, the recorder isn't running all

22:59

the time. I so I was

23:01

really good this time and made sure the recorder was running all the

23:03

time and kind of told him that as soon as we met up,

23:05

I was like, I'm just always gonna have their quarter on if that's

23:07

cool with you. And he was like, Yeah, it's fine. And so I

23:11

would just mark different times of the day in

23:13

different places. So it was a little easier to

23:15

go back to because at least you know, if

23:17

you remember one conversation, it was either in the

23:19

car, it was at his house or it was

23:21

at the restaurant. And so you market that it's

23:23

a little easier to refresh. But

23:26

yeah, I mean, there were I'm sure there were things

23:28

that happened that I did not include

23:30

because it was just hanging out and

23:33

it wasn't. But again, I

23:35

already had too much. And so it was at this point,

23:37

it was trying to figure out how to fit it all

23:39

into a story

23:41

that could publish in the magazine. When

23:45

you're like, writing about bowling

23:47

or like skating, like I think

23:49

that these things is almost like

23:51

sort of semi like instinctual. Like

23:54

There's not like, well, what do you do on

23:56

like fourth and two in bowling? It's like you're

23:58

throwing. you're doing kind of a. Added of

24:00

action something do as I'm an

24:02

intellectual eyes what they're thinking and

24:05

what they're doing on the court.

24:07

or is that. An. Important

24:09

to understanding the sport. That's.

24:12

A good question. Intellectual.

24:15

Icing Sports is always fun just because

24:17

I'm a fan of sports. And.

24:19

Like I mean Simon Sin. Is.

24:22

His whole life is bowling like

24:24

the way his head works is

24:26

bowling. And. So he just

24:28

can't help it. Yeah, and so then

24:30

I just get super into six I

24:32

love bowling for Than I just keep

24:34

on asking questions, but I feel like

24:36

my questions are less about that. Yeah,

24:38

I mean especially with things like. Skateboarding.

24:42

Or weed or wherever worth like.

24:44

I don't really care about your

24:46

growing techniques. I care more about

24:48

the other stuff going on and

24:50

skateboarding. It's difficult because there is

24:52

no. Correct. Where you

24:54

know what I mean. There is no. Like you

24:56

said, there is no forth into at all bowling.

24:59

At least it's like a structured sport. Yeah,

25:01

I mean it's interesting with the sports

25:03

like. Skateboarding. And I

25:06

think this would also apply to like mine on

25:08

surfing and sir another conference where it's like. It's

25:11

more of a culture truly

25:13

and an athletic competition. And

25:15

it's had this. Athletic

25:18

competition sort of stapled

25:20

onto itself as a

25:22

way to market and

25:24

hierarchical idea of that's

25:26

actually a word, what

25:29

people were already doing.

25:31

But. It. Can't be covered

25:33

in exactly the same way. As like

25:36

the Nfl which is like F course

25:38

football's a competition. It's Gallagher scoreboard and

25:40

there's like yard marks. How do you

25:42

think about that? Like how are you

25:45

in writing about skateboarding like his competition?

25:47

Something that like interest you. Know,

25:50

I mean I guess in that it

25:52

plays into how with the larger culture

25:54

sees it more and so that's interesting

25:57

to me. But. i think it's fun

25:59

coming out things that people in

26:01

the larger culture don't really know about

26:03

or understand as opposed to writing a

26:06

profile of someone like Patrick Mahomes, who

26:08

everyone already knows about. And

26:10

everyone's just looking for a new

26:12

quote that they can republish or a new thing

26:16

that he said about the Packers or whatever,

26:18

whereas it's like someone like

26:20

a pro skateboarder or a pro bowler, you

26:23

guys have never heard of. And so being

26:25

able to present a person and

26:27

a culture and a world to

26:30

a wider audience, I think

26:32

suits me well and has been really like

26:34

a fun way to do profiles. And I'm

26:36

not sure. Like, again, like I said, the

26:39

way that I've had my career and been able to

26:41

pitch people, I can't pitch someone

26:43

a profile of Patrick Mahomes, because I'm not

26:45

like a staff writer who has that kind

26:47

of status and access. But

26:50

if I come up with something fun that you've never heard

26:52

of, that might connect to

26:54

the larger culture, then it

26:57

kind of hits a nerve and a sweet spot for me.

26:59

And so I think speaking to

27:01

it on a cultural level as opposed

27:03

to a granular sports level makes

27:07

sense to people as opposed to

27:09

like you talking about skateboard competition and the numbers,

27:11

like that doesn't make sense to people. It doesn't

27:13

make sense to me. As

27:16

you like sort of branched out of

27:18

these subcultures and tried

27:20

to write about them for

27:22

a lay audience, what

27:25

have you learned about like how

27:28

to catch someone up on

27:30

the subculture and what details

27:32

are important versus like confusing?

27:35

Like I'll admit, like every time like

27:37

there's like the Thrasher skater of

27:39

the year, people are arguing about it.

27:41

I'm like, I need more context here.

27:43

I don't I would actually like to

27:45

kind of understand it. But I don't

27:47

know what I'm trying to understand. But

27:49

that's the fun part is you don't

27:51

get to understand because you're not in

27:54

it. And that's I guess speaking to

27:56

lay people from inside. That's so much

27:58

of it. It's like, you get

28:00

a little taste. If you want to

28:02

see more, you better start watching YouTube

28:04

videos of pro skaters or you better start going to

28:06

the bowling alley more and figure out how to spin

28:08

the ball or whatever, you know what I mean. And

28:11

hopefully what I can give you is something

28:14

that sticks with you enough that you want to go

28:16

do that more and that that is something interesting to

28:19

you. But I think it's

28:21

incredibly hard to describe why the

28:23

Thrasher Skater of the Year contest

28:25

is so enthralling to people who

28:27

skateboard because to mostly people if

28:30

you watch the videos back to back to

28:32

back of the three top

28:34

candidates, they look pretty much

28:36

the same if you don't know what you're looking

28:38

at. And so yeah, I can imagine that is

28:40

pretty difficult. But I think there's been some great

28:42

writing in the past five, six

28:44

years doing the same kind of thing. And I

28:46

think people are seeing it more as just a

28:50

influencer person cultural figure than

28:52

sports star in the numbers

28:54

way. What's

28:57

the state of state

28:59

media and like kind of in a

29:01

larger sense, like subculture media right now,

29:03

like, in some ways, you would think

29:05

that this would be a good

29:08

time to be publishing in a

29:10

niche because you can sort of

29:13

reach the limited,

29:15

but like all over the world audience

29:17

that's interested in it. But like, at

29:19

the same time, most of

29:22

that sort of era of like, I guess,

29:25

kind of like verticals within

29:27

publishing is kind of like, I mean, I

29:29

guess, like all the shit's

29:32

all like, you think this

29:34

thing would be doing well. And I'm like, I don't actually even

29:36

know what it's like, Thrasher, like, I mean, I remember

29:40

when Jake Phelps died, like, what's happening

29:43

now? Or it's I mean, Thrasher is

29:45

the funniest magazine in the world, because

29:47

it's the only one where the editor

29:49

in chief shoots every cover photo, not

29:52

every cover photo. But Michael Burnett took

29:54

over for Jake Phelps as editor and

29:56

he had been there forever. And his for

29:58

what I've seen. Pretty great

30:00

doing his job but they don't run

30:02

like a candy magazine or like as

30:05

the other magazines there are like. You.

30:07

Know six people on staff and they

30:09

do all of the writing and the

30:12

things and there's not much slake. There.

30:14

Aren't really many profiles are features

30:16

those interviews but. I.

30:18

Think that's as far as skate

30:21

media. Published. Saying goes,

30:23

I mean there's a couple in. Europe,

30:25

couples gay magazines in Europe and there's a

30:28

couple like. Big. Time scenes that

30:30

was every month and have good interviews and

30:32

great photos and stuff. But I think forever

30:34

skateboarding has always been about the photos and

30:37

videos and so it's been when you can

30:39

sneak in some written word but. The.

30:41

Skaters are in often reading it and so

30:43

then you're doing it for lay people and

30:45

so it's fun to get it in the

30:48

times or. Wherever.

30:50

They have been able to publish

30:52

Gq or Esquire wherever you can

30:54

do a fun skater profile. In.

30:57

The same way that I think about the ball and

30:59

one or it's like okay, we can sneak this into

31:01

the larger culture at large. Is there

31:03

like a bowling blogging seen out there?

31:06

Yeah there's a couple podcast as the

31:08

first time I have been on podcast

31:10

since this article dropped and the couple

31:12

bowl and podcast both invited me on.

31:14

Yeah people, I mean it's just like

31:17

anything else these bowling ball companies release

31:19

for new bowling balls every month that

31:21

all do different things and that they're

31:23

selling to a huge consumer base who

31:25

all watches you tube, reviews of the

31:28

pros, testing them out and like it's

31:30

the same as your golfer, your tennis

31:32

or skateboarding. Or any of these things where

31:34

we have found a large. Era

31:37

social and ecommerce.

31:39

Nice for. Hobbyists.

31:44

It's striking in the story that

31:46

even like this guy who's the

31:48

Patrick mom's and boeing is like

31:50

still pretty much like work in

31:52

in the warehouse safdar like bowling

31:54

supply company and has is very

31:56

close relationships. With. The companies

31:59

from for. Using it it's like

32:01

us as it's as if the people

32:03

who like a made the football. the

32:05

quarterbacks are pulling shifts that working for

32:08

them like yes truly are actually I

32:10

totally the question for me about like

32:12

you know even within the media coverage

32:15

like you've covered the We'd industry. And.

32:17

I know you do like some

32:19

like consulting like brand stuff with

32:22

in their what's it like working

32:24

in an environment where like the.

32:26

Players. The people

32:28

covering it and the brands

32:31

are all kind of like

32:33

pretty closely tied together. Yeah,

32:36

it's very difficult. I think

32:39

we'd is hard because you get to so

32:41

many. I guess it's

32:43

legal barriers. Because. Things

32:45

are changing so fast and so so

32:47

much of the good coverage becomes about.

32:50

The. Legalization changes and how things

32:52

are happening politically. And.

32:54

The How. You. Know like

32:56

so much of the Amanda Chicago Louis

32:58

stuff for was produced. The best long

33:00

form articles about cannabis for the past

33:03

ten years is about all these Sadie's

33:05

goings ons beach on, these corporate guys

33:07

in the second bankers and random people

33:09

were trying to hijack we'd from the

33:11

people. Yeah. And

33:13

that's never really concerned me because I'm focused

33:15

on weed. And people who like weed. And

33:18

people who smoke weed. right? And.

33:20

So the bankers and the suits have

33:22

never I like, I understand and I

33:24

dislike them and I do like love

33:27

reading those stories and it's so hard.

33:29

But. I've never felt heavy conflict that

33:31

way because so much of what I

33:33

like covering and what I like showing

33:36

people about cannabis is just the colts

33:38

are in the people. And obviously

33:40

I think those things intersect a lot and

33:42

it will be harder and harder as more

33:44

bad money comes into cannabis. But.

33:47

I've. Been able to. Kind

33:49

of separate the like brand copywriting I

33:51

do and the writing I do just

33:54

because I'm not really. An

33:56

investigative journalist in that way, in

33:58

that I'm looking for. These connections

34:00

between things. In my

34:03

writing. This. Is I mean I came up

34:05

with like. People. Who like cover? Technology.

34:08

On the shit out here where it's like there's

34:10

a drift towards. Everything ultimately

34:12

becomes a business and then

34:15

a business and politics

34:17

story as it becomes large

34:19

enough to command. Through

34:21

Business Money. And when there's to business

34:24

money, politics is always going to a

34:26

part of the control of that true

34:28

money. Like all stories that have a

34:30

role downhill the business and politics. Yes,

34:32

and I'm not very good at that

34:35

and so know where my limit is

34:37

at. That is that? Like I'm not

34:39

going to be the guy. Uncovering

34:42

these eighty money behind weed. But I will

34:44

tell you about the guy who's growing. The

34:46

best way to end is the coolest guy

34:48

because he does X, y and z. Your.

34:51

Part of a writing family and in I

34:53

rise as Anti resources as I say. he

34:55

really retweets mouth them Harris a lot and

34:58

as like oh and the have the same

35:00

that oh they're brothers Ah my older brother

35:02

Malcolm has the author of Palo Alto one

35:04

of the books that was on my list

35:06

of books to read to do it it

35:09

or for the show, but it's so much

35:11

easier if I just have to read an

35:13

article. Sorry, I got a lot of those

35:15

good ones they've got a lot ago. Those

35:18

who wants to work like did you guys

35:20

come from my. Gay literary writing family

35:22

how to do both and of

35:24

doing this. I mean we

35:27

certainly have lots of books around the house

35:29

which yep they will tell you I was

35:31

very bad at reading while he was very

35:33

good at risk drive to go join his

35:35

older brother younger brother. Politics jumping and right

35:37

I. Ah yeah One know Now

35:39

I get to gloat because I could be on the so

35:41

first we've had that. Now you have to invite him on

35:43

as where I was only fair to let him respond to

35:45

these. I. Know,

35:48

I mean our dad was a

35:50

lawyer and are mom. Was.

35:53

Around the house most but worked in

35:55

like museum dose and tree and was

35:57

always around doing art stuff. And.

35:59

So I guess to. a well-read house more than

36:01

like a writerly house. But no,

36:03

I mean, we both did the high school

36:06

newspaper, which was a very prestigious high school

36:08

newspaper at a public school in Palo Alto,

36:10

California. He was an editor, I was not.

36:14

But yeah, I know, I don't know if it was

36:16

like so much as a writerly family. He

36:18

certainly started a writing career directly

36:21

after college, and I kind of

36:23

still worked bartending

36:25

jobs and worked retail and

36:28

wrote aggregated news, which he would never do and

36:30

stuff like that, you know what I mean, where

36:32

it was like he was certainly a more professional

36:34

writer than I was. Where

36:36

were you writing aggregated news? So

36:39

I was at First We

36:41

Feast, the complex food vertical for

36:43

a couple years in 2013, 14,

36:46

15 ish era. And then they pivoted to

36:48

video as one

36:52

night actually they were the they were the

36:54

most successful pivot to video of

36:56

anyone and that hot wing show still

36:58

haunts me because I got

37:01

laid off for them to create

37:03

that and they have done fucking

37:05

spectacularly. And

37:07

so then there was no writing at that site anymore. What

37:11

would you say to someone who kind of

37:13

wanted to pursue like a path of sort

37:15

of following your interests and

37:17

just like writing about the shit

37:19

that you're into rather than maybe

37:21

exactly what like an editor is

37:23

asking for? Well, yeah,

37:25

it's like find another job. Which is

37:28

what I mean, that's how I do the

37:30

weed copywriting stuff is because it's a job

37:32

that actually pays me to write words and

37:34

it's fun. And I like doing it because

37:36

it's a lot of writing about

37:38

weed in the same way I would just

37:40

as a brand perspective as opposed to a

37:43

writer's perspective. But I'm still talking

37:45

about fun products and weed

37:47

stuff that I like. But yeah, I've never

37:49

been able to really sustain myself as a

37:51

journalist, money wise. So

37:54

I think it's hard. And when I was it was

37:56

because I was doing aggregated news with The

37:58

odd feature here and there. It was

38:00

still fun. You know, I thought that I

38:02

did aggregated news pretty well, but you still.

38:05

Right? and about supposedly lawsuits. Ah but

38:08

yes I did. We'd news for a

38:10

while it's New Dogs Mary Jane website

38:12

for a few years. And.

38:14

I did. You know the skateboard

38:16

videos with a couple Woods and

38:18

Com Skateboard magazine and I wrote

38:21

some features it Vice and At

38:23

Complex about sneakers and skateboarding and.

38:26

Yeah. I feel like knowing people.

38:29

I. Feel like that was always the. Magic.

38:31

Trick to writing was figuring out that

38:34

people who are editors at these sites

38:36

are also just people who skateboard and

38:38

hang out. The. Answer is like

38:40

as long as you know the person and it's

38:43

not like you're sending it to the ivory tower,

38:45

you're just sending it to a person who knows

38:47

who you are. It becomes a

38:49

lot easier and that is not like an

38:51

easy way to get into writing. But.

38:54

Also issue like. Are. Out

38:56

in the world doing cool stuff, you meet cool

38:58

people, some of whom are editors at magazines or

39:00

web sites, and that's kinda how it always worked

39:02

out for me. I feel like

39:05

we often have. I calm all writers. I'd

39:07

hear her like you know have been doing

39:09

this for for years but we're starting off

39:11

your out that first like patch or you

39:13

like hey and are you know me as

39:16

a skater but like do know I also

39:18

write stuff. could I've Picchu That's like how

39:20

do you bridge that sort a gap between

39:22

the first or ever wrote. Was really lucky

39:24

because. So. I had

39:27

a pitch about wraps. snacks.

39:29

Potato chips. Remember wrapped snacks.

39:32

And wrapped snacks were owned

39:34

by Little Romeo. I.

39:37

Think they still might be on in part

39:39

by law Romeo but they had like there

39:41

was never any marketing, it didn't really exist

39:43

but as he went to the corner stores

39:45

in Philly where I went to college you

39:47

could still buy wrapped snacks all the time

39:49

but in Slavers still with like. Yung.

39:52

Joc on the cover despite him not

39:54

having a song out in the past

39:56

six years. Yeah, remove those whether they

39:58

expire, Not a bullet. they weren't you look

40:00

at the bag they were freshly made. Maybe

40:04

the bags were old. But so I

40:06

was, you know, I've been, I don't

40:09

know if I had even written any full

40:11

things. But my brother convinced me to move up to New

40:13

York after college. And so I

40:15

was living in Brooklyn. And

40:17

I was like, you know, it was 2014 13. I was like, that sounds

40:20

like a fun story

40:22

that vice might be interested in. And

40:25

my brother was like, Yeah, I know a guy advice.

40:27

Here's his email, send him a pitch, write a pitch.

40:29

And so I wrote a pitch and the guy advice

40:31

like, No, thanks. We did like a listicle about wrap

40:33

snacks three years ago. And I clicked on it, it

40:36

was like, just five photos of bags of potato chips.

40:38

And I was like, No, no, no, I'm talking about

40:40

like, looking at where these come

40:42

from and who like how they still exist

40:44

and what that means for like, the

40:47

urban potato chip market, which seems different

40:49

than the potato chip market in 711

40:51

and things like that. And

40:54

he wasn't really hearing it and didn't kind of

40:56

understand what I was saying. And

40:58

then I just found the email of

41:00

Drew Millard, who's still a friend who

41:02

was working at noisy at the time,

41:04

which was at vice, but like a

41:07

different editorial structure. I was like, it's

41:09

owned by little Romeo. So it's a music story. And

41:11

so I just sent him the pitch. And he was

41:13

like, Oh, that sounds amazing. Hell yeah, let's do it.

41:15

Have you written anything before? Like, you

41:18

know, I was on the high school

41:21

newspaper. But

41:23

no, not really, like, I think I might have

41:25

sent him like a music review I had done

41:27

in high school of like a 50 cent album,

41:30

I think. But he liked the

41:32

pitch and the pitch was well written. And it was,

41:34

you know, 200 words about what the

41:36

thing was and what it was going to be. And

41:39

he was like, Yeah, let's go with it. Sure. It's

41:41

for the internet. It's you know what I mean? And

41:43

so it felt like at least back then, editors

41:46

maybe had a little more leeway. But

41:48

then that kind of led to the

41:51

first we feast opportunity. And so then they

41:54

were like, you know how to write about

41:56

food, do our new stuff and maybe

41:58

pitch us features, which they know. ever wanted to do. Yeah,

42:02

there's a degree to which I mean, like, it's

42:04

all sad, but like, there's

42:06

one level which like, there's less ways to

42:08

make like a full time living and there's

42:11

like less publishing and there's a lot of,

42:13

you know, there's a lot of losses there. But in

42:16

some ways, the loss that feels the saddest

42:19

to me is that there's just

42:21

less places to just publish your

42:24

first thing. Like, there were places

42:26

like the all and noisy that

42:29

people who were going to go on to

42:31

do awesome shit, that was the first like

42:33

email they sent and they took chances on

42:35

people and I just kind of wonder what

42:38

the like sort of ripple effects, you

42:40

know, in a decade later are there just being

42:42

less places for 22 year olds

42:44

to say, Hey, I've got one clipping

42:46

of a 50 cent album

42:49

review, would you be interested? And I

42:51

think that's equally important to

42:54

developing, you know, writers in the long

42:56

run. Yeah, I think it's

42:58

incredibly hard. And now Twitter sucks. It's like that

43:00

was where, you know, talking

43:02

about skateboarding on Twitter, this is where I

43:04

met a lot of the dudes who edit these

43:06

things. And you realize that a lot of the

43:09

35 year olds who don't skateboard as much but

43:11

still keep up with it and like to talk

43:13

about skateboarding, got cool jobs in media. And

43:16

yeah, those connections, if you

43:18

can't make them and if they don't

43:20

exist in the same way, it's so

43:22

hard to find any way into anything.

43:26

Well, on that vaguely depressing note, thank

43:29

you very much for this interview, Zach, I really

43:31

appreciate it. Likewise. Thanks so much for having me.

43:40

And that was the long

43:42

form podcast. Thanks very much to

43:45

Gabriella Saldivia for editing this

43:47

episode. Thanks to Susan Peterson

43:49

for doing the show notes. Thanks to

43:51

my co hosts Max Linsky and Evan

43:53

Ratliff. Thanks to everyone over at Vox.

43:55

We'll be back with a brand new

43:57

show next week. When

44:10

you surround yourself with the best tech, that's an

44:12

instant level up. So shouldn't you level

44:15

up in every room of your house? The

44:17

NuMe 2.0 is Kohler's most advanced toilet

44:19

to date, with a sculptural design that

44:21

elevates it beyond a household object, and

44:23

cutting-edge technology to bring you the finest

44:26

in personal comfort and cleansing. It offers

44:28

personalized settings to match your exact preferences,

44:30

from ambient colored lighting and a built-in

44:32

audio speaker system, to the heated sink

44:34

with hands-free opening and closing. It's

44:37

more than a toilet. It's a work of art.

44:41

Learn more at kohler.com. A marathon

44:46

is a journey, 26.2 miles. And

44:50

while the distance is the same, no

44:52

two journeys are exactly alike. Team

44:55

Milk is shining a spotlight on female

44:57

marathon runners across the country, helping

45:00

them on their journey from training to recovery.

45:03

And in 2024, Team Milk is

45:05

launching the only women's marathon in

45:07

the U.S. designed for and by women.

45:10

The Every Woman's Marathon will be a

45:12

weekend of wellness and celebration, inviting

45:15

runners of all levels to be a marathon

45:17

finisher. The inaugural race will

45:19

take place in Savannah, Georgia, on November 16, 2024.

45:24

You can learn more and register

45:26

for the marathon at everywomansmarathon.com.