0:01

Hello, and welcome back

0:04

to loop to loop. We have

0:06

taken a slight hiatus to

0:08

go wander around the

0:10

countryside of Michigan

0:13

catching trout. And.

0:17

Getting out and fishing as much as possible.

0:19

This week's episode, we're talking

0:22

with Zach Pope. From

0:24

trout insights, which

0:27

is the company. That creates

0:29

and manages trout routes.

0:32

If you're not aware of this app. Is

0:35

a great way to navigate. Navigate

0:37

new water. Water. And also

0:40

find new places to

0:42

fish specifically for trout.

0:45

I really enjoy this app. Since

0:47

it helps me find boat launches. Gives

0:50

me insights on regulation

0:53

and also is really handy on

0:55

understanding where public land is.

0:59

I hope you enjoy our conversation

1:02

is we talk about. The

1:04

enjoyment of fly fishing. And

1:07

really why. Good

1:09

tools. That are affordable

1:12

are important. So let's

1:15

dig in. Sweet. Alright.

1:17

We are excited today. We

1:19

have Zach Pope from trout insights,

1:22

which is the company that

1:24

works on trout routes. If any of you

1:26

ever tried it today. Welcome Zach.

1:29

Thank you for joining us. Thanks

1:31

so much for having me. All right. We

1:33

are. We're curious, Zach, how did you

1:36

get into fly fishing and

1:38

what do you really like about it in terms of

1:40

everyday. Practice.

1:44

Yeah. So I got into trout fishing.

1:46

Specifically fly fishing for me about

1:49

15 years ago.

1:52

We were cleaning out the garage

1:54

of my grandpa who passed way before.

1:56

I ever was born, so

1:58

I never met him, but I saw this crazy

2:00

looking very long, very stiff.

2:03

Flyer out in the garage. And then I'd

2:05

always had this appreciation. And

2:08

this envy of these people that do this fly fishing.

2:10

I sat and got really excited

2:13

and enamored with it and picked it up and

2:15

started self-teaching myself for,

2:17

honestly it was several years. And

2:19

I think the thing that I really just fell in

2:21

love with is that. For me, it

2:23

brought me to places that I normally never

2:25

would have otherwise been to. It's a really

2:27

big, like exploratory. Concept

2:30

behind fly fishing where, you find yourself these

2:32

gorgeous valleys are Meadows. And

2:35

for me, it's, it honestly is not about catching fish.

2:37

It's really about finding yourself in new places

2:39

and exploring. So I've been doing it for 15 years. I'm still

2:42

pretty, pretty pretty terrible at

2:44

it. But I'm getting better and it's a learning process

2:46

for everyone for kind of. For kind of life. Yeah, happy

2:48

to be here. And again, thanks for having me. Yeah,

2:50

thanks. Thanks for joining us. You said you

2:52

found your grandpa's rat in the garage. Was

2:55

that your first fly rod? I

2:57

wish I could say that I had

2:59

that rod for seven years and caught my

3:01

first trout on it. I kid you not,

3:04

this thing was like a metal

3:06

rod. It was like this. For

3:08

those folks that know, the, some of the technical

3:11

terminology, there's like a weight concept

3:13

behind a fly rod, or it's essentially, it talks

3:15

about how stiff the rod is. This thing was

3:17

like a metal rod. It was

3:19

just unusable. It was. Comical.

3:22

So really what happened is I took the fly right

3:24

out. I got really interested. I went to a fly shop.

3:26

They told me to. Essentially

3:28

throw it away and get anything other

3:30

than that. So I got a basically a really

3:33

low-cost starter kit. For ELA

3:35

a hundred bucks or something for the rod, the reel

3:37

and in the line. Which for me, honestly,

3:39

I'm actually a big proponent of, for beginners

3:41

because they're not perfect. They're not the most

3:44

high-tech, but man, they'll get general water.

3:46

So that my first flight. It was one of those starter kits

3:48

you get at bass pro shops or Dallas. And

3:51

those starter kits are awesome and it

3:53

they're nice because they are versatile and

3:55

you can get out and really try any water.

3:58

What was some of the first water that.

4:00

You tried fly fishing on. Yeah,

4:03

I'm actually based in Minneapolis

4:05

and Minnesota. And so I spent a lot of time.

4:08

In Southeast Minnesota, Southwest, Wisconsin.

4:11

That's what they call the Driftless area.

4:13

Probably 10 years ago. It was not as well known.

4:15

I think now it's getting a little bit more well-known

4:18

but these are pretty classic spring creeks.

4:20

They're small creeks. It's a really unique or

4:22

this area. And again, for me, half

4:24

the time I had finished, it was really just essentially

4:27

driving around. Since I didn't really truly

4:29

know how to fly fish or some of the technical aspects.

4:31

These are small streams. They're. Six to

4:34

at most. 20, maybe 30 feet

4:36

wide. Typically not a lot of crowds

4:39

pretty, pretty high. Preschool

4:41

key touchy fish. But there's a lot

4:43

of farms, a lot of Meadows pretty cool stuff.

4:45

No, don't those don't. In the drift

4:47

list, don't those disappear, like you'll have

4:49

a Creek or a river that will come up

4:51

for a few, like a mile

4:53

or two, and then it just goes back under water.

4:56

Yeah it's really a crazy area. You'll be

4:58

tracking a stream or blue lighting and,

5:01

you'll be seeing this. A hundred CFS stream

5:03

and, carrying it around and going from bridge to bridge. And

5:06

I don't know where it's gone. It's dry. And

5:08

because they're, spring-fed, they go. They have

5:10

this. In some places it's really

5:12

crazy how advanced the tunnel and

5:14

the cave systems are underneath, but essentially

5:17

the streams will go under the ground and we'll go.

5:19

Deep underground, where typically they're actually cool.

5:22

That's kind of part of what makes them a great trout

5:24

stream as they go under the ground, become

5:26

the spring and come back up, let you know, later

5:28

three miles down and they had this really

5:30

cool kind of cooling effect. And

5:33

then that's part of what makes the Driftless so cool. But

5:36

it's very odd as a new angler, as a, as

5:38

an angler, new to the area, it's like, where the heck did this

5:40

truck string go? Yeah. You're just

5:42

walking and then it just disappears. You're like, oh,

5:44

okay. So that's probably

5:46

what intrigued you to

5:49

go out and really explore is in

5:52

Wisconsin and Minnesota, you guys don't

5:54

have a consistent, it doesn't come to a head

5:56

or a confluence. It just. It

5:59

disappears. Yeah,

6:01

the whole spring fed like ecosystem

6:04

of the Driftless is definitely really interesting.

6:06

But honestly, when you're first getting

6:08

started and all, is your environment.

6:11

It's, that's not what really intrigued

6:13

me because that's just what I became. I came to know

6:15

as the standard. And really

6:17

when I started going out west and, I guess

6:19

a little bit out east, those rivers became pretty

6:21

odd to me because they're seasonally.

6:23

Very. They're very different in the foam

6:25

or just the spring versus the summer. Whereas

6:28

in the Driftless, it's incredibly consistent

6:30

outside of, rain events or some marginal

6:32

snow events. But really what really

6:34

kept me going the first couple of years

6:37

is that the more in tune

6:39

you are with your surroundings and

6:41

the more. You pay attention

6:43

to really the most detailed.

6:46

Natural aspects of your surroundings, the better you

6:49

are, the more effective you are at. Your

6:51

goal, which is eventually to catch fish. For me,

6:53

it was more exploring, but it

6:55

really is a activity or a sport

6:57

that pushes you to be more present. And

7:00

that is a thing that I think all of us

7:02

could always work on. And for me, I definitely strive

7:04

to be more present and. Really

7:06

fly fishing and the things that make

7:08

you good at fly fishing is what helped me be

7:10

more present. So these are things

7:12

like getting to the stream and intentionally

7:15

not fishing for an hour and really

7:17

just sitting. Like literally

7:19

just sitting there staring at your screenings.

7:21

And the longer that you sit there and the longer that you pay attention

7:23

to. The bugs and the rocks and the water.

7:26

Really the better that you get in, the more precedent that you

7:28

get. So those are the things that really grew

7:31

drew me in. The first, probably five

7:33

years. Nice. So did you find yourself

7:35

maybe like sitting on a bank, overturning

7:38

rocks to see what kind of nips

7:40

or like what you maybe had in your

7:42

fly box that matched. What

7:44

was in your hand, on the rock? Yeah.

7:47

Eventually, the, a really good process.

7:50

Eventually as to yeah. Go and flip over some

7:52

rocks and look at what kind of bugs are there and

7:55

see if you can learn about what's going on

7:57

in the water and potentially start matching your

7:59

flies to, what's under the rocks. You

8:01

can also look at, what's

8:03

going on under the rocks in terms of what might

8:05

happen later down, later in the day.

8:08

So you can look at. Or the bugs starting to

8:10

come out of their shells. Are they starting to hatch a little bit?

8:13

There's a lot of things that you can read, but for me, honestly,

8:15

it was, I just really loved learning about what bugs

8:17

are in there. Are there bugs under the rocks? What

8:19

kinds of rocks are they like? But also

8:22

there's a lot of stuff that goes on above the water.

8:24

Outside of the hatching insects that

8:26

we spend a lot of time on, I learned from a guide

8:29

in I think it was Colorado. On

8:31

the frying pan, he really taught me to

8:34

look very carefully at spiderwebs.

8:36

Not only because, Spiders are cool. And they're interested

8:38

in, they are a food source for trout,

8:41

but you can learn a lot about what kinds

8:43

of bugs are flying around in that area around that

8:45

same time of day, around that same day.

8:48

You can learn from. From

8:51

like spider webs from the racks from,

8:53

there's like mice tracks and look at, which is a whole nother

8:56

hour discussion. But. Mostly

8:58

and can turn into that, that could turn into a half-day

9:01

talk for me. I love. My gosh, I've

9:04

just been scratching the surface. So I think mostly

9:07

I would have questions for you if we started talking about it. Yeah,

9:09

that's, it's so fun to be able to go

9:11

out in the middle of the night. And a lot

9:13

of times when we're new anglers, we forget

9:16

that trout, especially trout

9:18

are primarily nocturnal creatures.

9:20

So to go out at night

9:23

when we're almost handicapped in there,

9:25

they're in their element is so fun.

9:28

So I have a very random story

9:30

that will go off on a tangent on real quick. I've always

9:32

been like really curious about

9:34

this concept of like mice fishing, where.

9:37

Yeah. Especially if you're new to. Typically

9:40

you think of these tiny little insects and

9:42

there you're such a casting the weight of your line.

9:44

And these tiny little things, and these fish

9:47

come up and eat these tiny little insects, and

9:49

all of a sudden you start thinking about throwing like a

9:52

mouse pattern, the size of your hand, and it just breaks

9:54

your mind. It's very hard to think about. And

9:56

the reality is typically these huge

9:58

trout will really become predatory at night.

10:00

And that's really when you're supposed to do most fishing.

10:03

I've tried it a few times at night, but the one

10:05

and only time I've ever had success.

10:07

Throwing a massive mouse pattern for trout.

10:10

Was on this one, we'll name it,

10:12

but on this river in Colorado, in the middle

10:14

of a sunny day, we're talking like sun

10:17

was probably right straight

10:19

above me. We're talking like two o'clock in the afternoon.

10:22

There's this whole with this tree

10:24

overhanging the whole. And

10:26

I think it was like, I think it was a black caddis hatch.

10:29

At the moment and they were just being really aggressive. And I said, you

10:31

know what? Screw it. They're being really aggressive.

10:33

Maybe I have a shot. I just tossed,

10:36

Literally talks to this giant mouse pattern and started

10:38

twitching it. And the only time I've ever

10:40

had a trout today, a. Top

10:42

water mouse pattern. That is unbelievable

10:45

during. During the day. I've

10:48

taken some out and I've been a little

10:50

bit brave during the day. I've never

10:52

gotten a bite. It's always been when

10:55

I'm at my worst and they're at

10:57

their best. And that's

10:59

what you would expect because a lot of times,

11:01

middle of the day, there's a lot of sun, the Fisher

11:03

spooky. They don't come up to hit, 20

11:06

atoms, but all of a sudden you're throwing like

11:08

a size zero, a mousepad

11:11

or whatever. They are. So it was

11:13

pretty cool. I've never done it ever since I've tried

11:15

it at night and I've gotten nothing but branches.

11:17

A pretty cool experience. That is too cool.

11:19

So it's it's almost like one of those. Meditative

11:23

like practice moments where you were. So

11:25

in, in the moment of, the Fisher

11:27

just being aggressive and you

11:29

realized it. Let's see if they'll play with

11:31

something huge. Yeah.

11:34

I think it, it comes down to what your goals

11:37

are when you're on the water. But, for me, I

11:39

had already gotten a few on this black cat

11:41

attach I had already gotten that experience.

11:44

And I could've stayed there and, just. Completely

11:47

tripping up the numbers and gotten, back to back.

11:49

But I, one experience I've never had

11:51

at that moment was catching something on a mouse pattern.

11:54

For my goals and in terms of getting new experiences

11:56

and learning a lot while I'm on the water, I said, I would

11:58

love to learn. If these things will

12:00

hit a mouse in the middle of the day. And I don't

12:02

know what I learned from that, but. It definitely

12:04

worked. I. I guess there's. Always

12:06

exceptions to the rules. Yeah,

12:10

I've heard that. I've definitely heard that. That's

12:12

awesome. Yeah, I can

12:15

completely. Relate

12:17

to that story because while

12:20

I was out west or. In

12:22

West Virginia last week. Everyone,

12:26

everyone out there is really big into

12:28

nymph fishing and we're in this tiny

12:30

Creek and. Up

12:32

in the mountains, in this tiny Creek,

12:34

all the other rivers were blown out and,

12:37

my friends, I was with they're throwing

12:39

nymphs and I finally,

12:41

I got stuck too many times with the indicator

12:44

rag and I was like, you know what? I

12:46

need to go back to My micro streamers

12:48

and the only fish we saw

12:50

the entire day was me

12:52

stripping a little teeny tiny

12:55

like size eight hook

12:57

streamer. That

12:59

was awesome. It's so funny

13:02

because it's like you have so many

13:04

rules you want to follow and then with fly

13:06

fishing, you can just decide one

13:08

afternoon. You're like, I'm going to break it and see what

13:10

happens. Yeah,

13:12

I think that's a really cool. Cool, like concept

13:15

is that. I go out west,

13:18

I think to some of those technical tailwaters

13:20

they have these incredibly specific

13:22

rules. Sets and like instructions,

13:25

like there's a couple of Tailwater in Colorado

13:27

that have these mice, a shrimp. It's like

13:29

there's three waters. Apparently the country

13:31

that had them, they tell you, you will not catch

13:33

anything unless you have an incredibly

13:35

perfect Drake free drift. It's

13:38

gotta be weighted. It's gotta be a size 18.5,

13:41

my SIS shrimp white. And if

13:43

you don't have that, then you know, you're completely never

13:45

gonna catch anything. But if you do you'll catch, 24

13:47

inch, whatever. And the rules

13:49

get really intense out there. And sometimes it's good to just

13:52

like bringing your intuition, bringing your observation

13:54

and try something different. So it sounds

13:57

like it worked well for you there. Yeah.

13:59

So it's almost A lot of the guides are almost

14:01

like professors. Would you say.

14:04

Yeah, Of course, that's there's a lot

14:06

of different guides out there, different types of guides. But

14:08

I think, my observation is definitely a west specifically,

14:10

like Colorado is some of those waters

14:13

are so technical and they see so many anglers

14:15

that they just, they tell, what works and

14:17

what has worked for them. And that typically can

14:19

be, that the ticket, but sometimes it is

14:21

nice to have an outsider's perspective come in and

14:23

bring again their intuition and their observation.

14:26

To try something new, but especially with

14:28

the guys out there, cause they spend so much time out

14:30

there. They see it and they see their

14:32

surroundings more than anyone else. So they're definitely

14:34

the professor type. Yeah.

14:38

So when you're traveling a lot of times

14:40

what are you primarily looking

14:42

for? When you're

14:44

out hunting fish, are there certain locations?

14:47

Are there certain opportunities

14:50

that you go to in order to collect

14:52

new information? Yeah.

14:55

You don't like typically try to find there's

14:58

a sweet spot of like rivers

15:00

that I know are productive because

15:02

they have some knowledge about them, either

15:05

from books or from online

15:07

here and there. But also I

15:09

try to find places that are not obviously going to

15:11

have a lot of traffic. And so it's

15:14

a good segue into what I do for work, which is travel

15:16

routes. When I first started fly fishing,

15:19

I was really enamored by this

15:21

idea that you get to go travel

15:23

and basically be somewhere new every day. You get

15:25

to find yourself in someone's private farm

15:28

because they have an easement or you get to go to

15:30

a state park because there's a trout stream. And

15:32

I love that idea of it, but I also

15:34

felt like there was this

15:37

big barrier. Of you. Lack

15:39

of information out there as far as where

15:41

are these trout streams and where are the

15:44

public access points that I can legally

15:46

get to, to get onto this

15:48

water? And I spent so

15:50

much of my time manually mapping

15:53

my own data. Going and hand

15:55

drying things and Google earth

15:57

and doing a lot of notes in my notebook.

15:59

Yeah. I noticed there are

16:02

definitely certain tools that

16:04

most states provide and they're all. They're

16:06

all useful, but they're also all

16:08

lacking in some way or another.

16:11

And for me, traveling is such a

16:13

big part of my fly fishing experience,

16:15

specifically across state lines that I

16:18

don't want to have to relearn

16:20

all the tools from one state to the next.

16:23

And so pretty early on, I decided that there was

16:25

this big missing opportunity

16:27

in a really good mapping system for

16:29

specifically made for trout anglers.

16:32

And honestly these days I would love

16:34

do, tell you that I don't use something

16:36

like trout routes, but I actually do. I

16:38

see the tool as well. Like to

16:40

me, I it's such a valuable

16:43

resource and, once

16:45

you pair it. So if you're a new

16:47

Adler, a lot of times what we're looking

16:49

at is the flows of water or CFM.

16:52

So how much water is being

16:54

pushed through there. So when you pair

16:56

something like trout routes, if you can find

16:58

gauges, which a lot of these rivers

17:01

you can't, once you get so far into kind

17:03

of the smaller water. Between

17:05

your gauges. An app

17:07

like trout routes and then

17:09

understanding stocking schedules. If

17:11

the state you're in or stocking. You

17:14

can start to hunt the fish. Yeah.

17:18

There, there is no shortage of water out

17:21

there. I think that's, I really do feel

17:23

like the fly fishing sport. Still

17:25

has a lot of unnecessary barriers

17:27

to it where I think there's a lot of really

17:30

good people that would make for great

17:32

conservationists that would be in our sport.

17:34

If they had less intimidation

17:37

or less barriers to get into it. And

17:39

one of those barriers is just like clean,

17:42

clear access to information. I think there's still

17:44

a lot of barriers. Some of them are unintentional.

17:47

Some of them are intentional. And

17:49

that's our mission at trunk routes is to make

17:51

access to information more accessible.

17:54

And through, through really good maps. So we have

17:56

all the stream gauges. We have all the public access. We

17:58

have all the rivers. Pretty much

18:00

everything that you would ever want to need. Gotta have.

18:02

And I typically look for like when I go

18:04

out, if I were going to, Michigan, I try to look

18:06

for. Typically spring-fed creeks

18:08

that are, a class one or

18:11

higher in our system. And

18:13

I look for, I really. Like where

18:16

you have the stream, you follow it way up into

18:18

the headwaters. And then the road stops. There's typically

18:20

like a parking lot and a trail that goes way up. And

18:22

typically like most people, I shouldn't say most,

18:24

but typically most people don't go very

18:26

far from their car. And so if

18:28

you find those headwaters where there's this, the road

18:31

stops and there's a little parking lot

18:33

and you can hike your way up a mile in. You

18:35

won't find a soul. It's great fishing.

18:37

I try to find those kinds of sweet spots. Yeah.

18:41

Yeah. So with those sorts of class

18:43

one and two you're looking

18:45

for really the more of

18:47

a limited access where you're

18:49

going to work for the fifth. You're

18:51

going to, you're going to be having. Having

18:53

an adventure for the afternoon. Yeah,

18:57

and I think it it always will come back to your goals,

18:59

but I think a lot of us are looking

19:01

for not just fish in hand, they're

19:03

looking for. An adventure. And experienced

19:06

getting last dozen bad. And yeah.

19:08

There are plenty of trout streams that actually go

19:10

through. Cities and towns. There's like the blue river

19:13

in Silverthorne, Colorado,

19:15

which is a pretty classic there's strip malls literally

19:17

next to one of the best trout streams in the state.

19:20

But I think for a lot of us, we look for.

19:22

Places that are only accessible via a

19:24

one mile trail. Because there's gonna be less people.

19:27

You have to work for the trout and it's gonna be that much

19:29

more engaging in nature. You're gonna

19:31

be that much more present. Yeah. Yeah. Those

19:33

are the best places to go out and,

19:35

maybe take yourself a little lunch or

19:37

a pack of snack and just

19:40

relax and watch what's

19:42

going on around you. Because especially

19:45

if you live in a town or you're. Around

19:47

other people. It's a break. I

19:51

was actually gonna say that too, is that

19:54

one thing that I started trying doing is,

19:56

and this is probably weird. Hopefully

19:59

not, but I've actually started

20:01

going to trout streams without

20:03

a fly rod. And I'll literally just pack like

20:05

a coffee maker in a pack

20:07

and go like snack. And it sounds

20:10

out, but actually it's really interesting because you go

20:12

to a trout stream. You're really excited to fly fish,

20:14

but you don't know your flight around. And so it forces

20:16

you to really truly be present. Sit

20:18

there for an hour, learn a lot

20:20

about what you'll see plenty of trout and you'll see plenty of insects.

20:23

And you'll be forced into this like level

20:25

of presence that you probably didn't have before. And

20:28

so I've been playing with that idea a little bit. The last, like

20:30

two years, that's been a cool experience. Yeah.

20:33

Some afternoons, there's nothing beats

20:35

just taking like. A sandwich

20:37

or some sort of snack with you and

20:40

just sitting there and watching them. Cause I that's

20:42

how I've learned the most over really

20:44

the past two years is having access

20:47

to public land as well as some of my own

20:50

little slice of private land. And you just

20:52

sit there and. You're curious.

20:54

You're like, what do you guys do? If no, one's around

20:56

with a fly rod. What's going on? Another

21:00

thing that I started playing with is bringing binoculars.

21:02

You go there, you go to a street and you're sitting there

21:04

and that's awesome. But if you add into

21:06

that, the nodular. You can really start studying

21:08

those trout and. It's funny. The

21:11

way that you said that it's almost like you want to spend a day

21:13

in the life of a trout and just like figure out.

21:15

What do they do? What are they looking at? How do

21:17

they move? What time of day do they move the most,

21:19

that kind of stuff. There's. There's just so much you can learn. Yeah.

21:22

And like you said, if you're bringing by now circulars

21:25

and you can look at your birds. Because

21:27

if you're noticing any Hawks

21:30

off sprayer, Eagles, You're

21:32

probably sitting somewhere where

21:34

there they want to fish. So

21:36

you're getting a bird's

21:38

eye view of what's going on. Yeah,

21:41

that's a great point. Great point. Yeah,

21:43

I can't tell you how many. Times I've been low

21:46

hold by an Eagle sitting like.

21:49

And the thing is I don't have binoculars.

21:52

I'm not thinking like a fish.

21:54

I'm thinking like a human and I'm

21:56

out there. Like, why is nothing there right

21:58

there? Why is nothing biting? And

22:00

then finally, after so long, you see

22:02

the bird takeoff and you're like they

22:05

saw it. How did I not see that?

22:08

It's so crazy how good their eyesight is.

22:10

I can't even comprehend it. Yeah.

22:12

Yeah, that, and if you walk up, just,

22:15

if you're trying to sneak up on a trail, And

22:18

you're on the bank. They can feel it. And they

22:20

know it's they're like, we're out, there's

22:22

a fisherman here. Yup. I

22:24

think that's like one of the, there's a couple

22:26

of. Like lessons that I

22:28

had to work through when I first started

22:31

fly fishing net. Can be frustrating when

22:33

you're first getting started and you can't quite figure out what you're

22:35

doing wrong. And one of them is it's so easy

22:37

to Spookfish. You might spend all your

22:39

time going to classes and fly casting classes

22:41

and. Entomology and you might be

22:43

really good at everything, except for the fact

22:45

that when you walk up to that stream, the fish were gone before

22:48

you had a chance to start. And so

22:50

being really mindful of, your presence

22:52

and how it's affecting the

22:55

trout and whether or not they're aware of you

22:57

is a huge lesson for kind of a

22:59

newcomer. Sometimes you literally have to

23:01

crawl 25 yards from AFT

23:03

bank all the way near the stream to cast,

23:06

just so you're not, speaking on. Which I've

23:08

done a few times. Yeah,

23:10

I don't know how often I crawl

23:12

through the river. I probably destroy

23:14

more waiters than most people because I'm

23:17

like on my knees, like scooting down river,

23:19

trying not to make my presence

23:21

known. It's honestly so

23:25

would you say for a beginner angler

23:28

in their getting started if they're looking

23:30

for fish, maybe warm water is a good

23:32

way to. To get your fix on

23:34

fish and in fraud are really about honing

23:36

in your skills. Yeah,

23:39

I really would. And I think, I've heard people

23:41

talk about that as a suggestion and I could

23:43

not agree more. If you have

23:45

the fortune to have a warm water

23:47

lake near you. It's a great place

23:50

to get your feet wet with a fly rod. And it's

23:52

specifically if you can go to the shoreline

23:55

of a other warm water. Lake. Between

23:58

say whatever may to September,

24:00

October and get some panfish, you

24:02

can cask get the feel for what it's

24:04

like to cast a line. Throw some

24:06

sort of little like spider or popper or whatever

24:09

and you can catch panfish and you'll be hooked. And

24:11

from there it's really about, like you said,

24:13

learning the entomology and kind of fine tuning.

24:16

The concept of going from Stillwater to moving water,

24:18

which is a big job, but it's much

24:21

easier and much more enjoyable if you

24:23

get your feet, but in a. At a warm water

24:26

lake first, not to mention

24:28

a delicious dinner. I've

24:30

never really gotten into eating fish.

24:33

I'm definitely a catch release person, not because,

24:35

I'm, I have some sort of philosophy against

24:37

keeping fish, but I just a picky eater. Never really got

24:39

into it. Yeah, I can't tell you

24:41

how many times I've tried. I've traded

24:44

in going trout fishing for I'm

24:46

like, you know what, some bluegill

24:48

on a frying pan. That's going

24:50

to hit the spot tonight for dinner. That's

24:53

awesome. So in

24:55

terms of using

24:58

an app and getting on public

25:00

land Really? What

25:02

has that provided? You

25:04

as well as people using your app. Because

25:08

public lands can be really intimidating

25:11

to know where to go or what to do.

25:15

Yeah, I think before you even get to public land,

25:17

I think one thing that, that I learned

25:19

that I think people learn using any

25:21

tool, whether it's, trout routes. Which

25:24

is our mapping tool or a state

25:26

tool is that there's a lot of trout water out

25:28

there more than most people realize. And

25:30

it's easy to know about the top 10

25:33

streams in Michigan or Colorado

25:35

or wherever. But I think a lot of people

25:37

don't realize that there's trunk water pretty close

25:39

to you. Nine times out of 10, maybe seven

25:41

times out of 10, unless you're in. Kansas

25:44

has four streams or something. And so

25:46

that's number one is just realizing and being

25:48

educated on where Trump streams are,

25:50

which is one of our, one of our main xenografts.

25:53

Repetitions as we spend a ton of time. Mapping

25:55

out the specific lines of all the trout

25:57

streams, cold water streams that can't have stocked

26:00

or wild trout. But then when you

26:02

add into that, this whole world

26:04

of private and public access, it

26:06

can be. Extremely intimidating and very

26:08

complex. And it can take the fun

26:11

out of the exploratory

26:13

aspect of fly fishing. 'cause

26:15

sometimes signs, sometimes you don't. Sometimes

26:17

you see cars, sometimes you don't. It's

26:20

just really hard to navigate. And it's one reason why

26:22

people keep going to the same spot

26:24

is because they're nervous to go somewhere new. And

26:26

for those reasons, along with many others, as we

26:28

felt, it was really useful

26:31

to spend a lot of time mapping out where all the

26:33

public land parcels are and then

26:35

maybe creating some more More

26:37

obvious. Annotations for, where the parking

26:39

lots are and where different access

26:41

points are and works like shops are. So

26:44

I think when you put it all together, it can be, it

26:46

can really, again, lower the barrier to

26:48

understand where to find trout and where to publicly

26:51

access them. The last, the other thing that I would say is

26:53

that each state is a very different with

26:55

what the legal access. R so

26:57

like a Minnesota, Wisconsin, that it's a fairly,

27:00

you know what I would call like a friendly approach

27:02

to legal access laws. Number

27:04

one number two is there's a really robust

27:07

easement program. Where, the

27:09

state or other agencies have

27:11

acquired. Essentially access

27:13

corridors to T trout streams. And

27:16

it's just an amazing program. It really provides

27:18

hundreds and hundreds of miles of public access

27:20

that you just don't have to worry about.

27:22

Landowners being, concerned about you being on their property

27:25

and all those challenging complex.

27:27

And so the Midwest is really good for that. Some states

27:29

like Colorado and there's a few out

27:32

west, or sorry, out east that are really

27:34

touchy with private access. Yeah. So

27:37

that's what I was going to ask next is,

27:39

Michigan, we have wonderful

27:42

easement rights. I can get on

27:44

it, my property and, if

27:46

I wanted to, I could walk five

27:48

miles up river and get out and not

27:51

have a problem. But I know

27:53

for instance, in Ohio,

27:55

if you. So

27:57

you're in public access land. If you come across

27:59

a fence, someone can fence the river off.

28:02

So how does your app account for

28:04

those nuances in those states where

28:06

you are currently mapping.

28:10

Yeah. So the key is to really know which

28:12

parcels of land are public

28:15

versus private. And then beyond that, it's

28:17

an understanding of what the laws are.

28:19

So let's just take that example. What

28:22

our tool would do and what probably is, there's some other

28:24

options out there in Ohio would tell

28:26

you which land parcels are public and where

28:28

the trout stream is. So you know where to ask

28:30

where to enter and then knowing

28:33

the Ohio laws, don't allow you to go beyond

28:35

fences that prevent navigable water

28:37

access. Then you would know not to cross

28:39

that debt. Sense. Whereas

28:41

in Wisconsin, as long as your feet are

28:43

wet you can, cut as long as your feet

28:45

are wet and the water is navigable from

28:47

a, like a watercraft at a kayak, you can continue

28:50

going, even if that's in private land. So

28:52

I think the combination of knowing where

28:55

the public land parcels are, which is what we do.

28:57

Along with the local laws of the state,

28:59

which we will be adding in the next month, then

29:02

that's pretty much all you need to know. Beyond

29:04

that though, I think there's still some further

29:06

nuance beyond what you legally have

29:08

access to. That is still an

29:10

important, like thing to understand, learn.

29:13

Let's say you're legally on a

29:15

trout water because your feet are wet in

29:17

Wisconsin. You still might have a landowner

29:19

that is really angry that you're there. And

29:21

so yeah, technically you could stay

29:23

there and we've had some of our users say they stayed

29:25

there and they've actually told me that Sheriff's

29:28

come on board or they investigate. And they

29:30

found out that because of our app, they learn

29:32

how to get under the water through an easement and

29:34

they were fine. But you're three hours

29:36

into a conflict and it's. Is that really

29:38

the goal of your day? If you're gonna have conflicts

29:40

with landowners. So we always try and say like,

29:43

when in doubt just try to respect landowners

29:45

that if there's a conflict, just avoid it

29:47

because there are some cases where you, we.

29:49

You probably have legal right away, but do you

29:51

really want a conflict? And I

29:53

think there's a lot of cases where. There's

29:56

that. And there's also a lot of these really

29:58

cool even programs that we have in Wisconsin

30:01

and Pennsylvania and a few others. We

30:03

depend on landowners being willing to play.

30:06

Yeah. And so if we have anglers out there

30:08

that are, kind of conflict, They're

30:10

like seeking conflict almost. It's just

30:12

not beneficial for our sport overall. W

30:14

we'll help you understand how to legally get

30:16

to a trout river. But I think,

30:19

if you're starting to have a conflict, we advise you

30:21

to just kinda get out of there. Yeah.

30:23

That makes good sense because I don't.

30:27

It's better to like, keep the landowners.

30:30

At least somewhat appeased then, stick

30:32

around and cause problems for them and

30:34

yourself. Yeah,

30:37

totally. How

30:39

do you as an app. With,

30:41

especially with the attention

30:43

that fly fishing has been receiving

30:46

and just how the industry

30:48

is starting to grow. How do you recommend

30:50

people responsibly participate? Dissipate

30:53

in the sport. Yeah,

30:57

that's a really good question. There's actually a lot

30:59

of I would say like anecdotal stories

31:02

that are very like, Disturbing

31:04

and disheartening about the influx

31:06

of new England's coming to the sport and either

31:08

intentionally or unintentionally. Creating

31:11

a very poor experience for either other anglers

31:13

or landowners. And

31:15

it's going to have a really unfortunate, long-term

31:18

effect. If we have participants in our sport,

31:20

creating poor experiences. And so

31:22

I think one thing is number

31:24

one, be educated, understand

31:27

what your. Where you're going in terms of is

31:29

it legal? Is it on public land?

31:31

Which is what our company's mission is currently.

31:36

Etiquette. And understanding

31:39

all kinds of things from, what

31:41

is it advisable to stop fishing for trout

31:43

when water temperatures go up? So that's one

31:45

concept. Another concept is if you're doing catch

31:47

and release first of all, only do catch

31:50

it early. So that's, what's legally required,

31:52

but also if you are, here's

31:54

how to do proper fishing annually. How do

31:56

you use social media and

31:58

fishing, which is a whole nother deal responsibly.

32:01

So some people might spend three minutes

32:03

trying to get a good shot of a fish. They caught. But

32:05

in the process they just told the other fish. So

32:07

I think there's a lot of like education. That

32:10

these newcomers will need to get better at.

32:13

And I think I actually would like to see our company do

32:15

a better job of that. So

32:17

as our company grows and becomes

32:19

this go-to for kinda

32:21

knowing where trout streams are and where public accesses.

32:24

And as we keep growing, I would like to see us take a more

32:27

lead position in trying

32:29

to onboard newcomers into our sport

32:31

in terms of education. So that

32:33

could be educating them on water temperature

32:35

could be educating them on proper fishing aniline.

32:38

Etiquette. How not to high whole people,

32:40

et cetera. Yeah. It's hard because

32:42

it's hard because you hear these stories and there's so much

32:45

you want to do, but the solutions are fairly

32:47

complex and fairly expensive to try and figure out

32:49

in terms of how to get us all

32:51

as an industry to respect the

32:53

experiences of others. Yeah. And

32:56

you brought up a really good point about social

32:58

media. And I,

33:00

even someone educated

33:02

me that on this about two years ago,

33:05

in terms like spot burning. So

33:08

one thing I really appreciate is on

33:10

the app. You don't have no

33:12

one can post. It's not a social media by

33:14

any means. Like no one can post

33:17

like bragging, photos of a fish. It's

33:19

just the data you need to get to the point

33:21

you're going to. Yeah.

33:25

I think you said it better than I could have. We get

33:27

a lot of, sorry. We get

33:29

some negative reactions

33:31

from people in the industry, because I think they

33:33

assume that we're like the fish brain of fly

33:35

fishing, but we never

33:37

have never will do anything related to

33:39

community, social media sharing

33:41

spots. So it really is

33:43

just a mapping platform to help you get on the water.

33:46

Like we're not, you can't share stuff with friends, you can't

33:48

create a profile. You can't. There's

33:50

a lot of stuff you can't do in our app

33:52

with respect to sharing and social media.

33:55

And that's just part of our DNA.

33:57

We'll never allow that. So I appreciate

33:59

you bringing that up. Yeah, I really do

34:01

appreciate that because I've looked at other

34:03

apps. I've tried them and, The

34:06

main thing is. Did you get

34:08

more involved in trope fishing and

34:10

fly fishing is you almost want to find

34:12

those hidden places and you're out

34:14

really. It makes it possible

34:17

to keep them somewhat. Unknown

34:19

from the rest of the community or

34:22

from people that are just out there looking to,

34:24

get what I like to call gripping grins.

34:28

Yeah. Yeah,

34:30

kudos to you guys on that front. And

34:33

really bringing a lot of really great information

34:35

together for people that are new to

34:37

the sport because, When you're first

34:39

starting this, it is intimidating

34:42

to. Decide,

34:44

where am I going to go? How am I going to do this?

34:46

And in having some more. That

34:48

brings, you, you brought

34:50

up class one streams,

34:52

you guys have all of that

34:55

information as well as. What's

34:58

advisable to do for that water.

35:00

So for Michigan, for instance, we have

35:02

a very limited trout season. I

35:04

do appreciate that. You guys mentioned,

35:06

this is water. You can only fish at this certain

35:08

time a year. Because for new

35:10

anglers, I have approached

35:13

people that are on a river

35:15

in the middle of the winter, and I'm like, Hey, this

35:17

is a class one. This is a class two.

35:20

I would hate to see you guys get in trouble.

35:22

And so many times. I didn't

35:24

know this. So sometimes I am

35:27

throwing you guys. People like, even

35:29

if it is Educational Hey just

35:31

so you're aware. But that is very

35:33

important because each state

35:35

is so nuanced. Yeah.

35:38

Two things to break, break down there.

35:41

Phishing. Special regulations for

35:43

streams. Is, it has a really important

35:45

piece and educating anglers

35:47

on what those special regulations are.

35:50

It's a big piece of compliance. So to

35:52

your point, if you have a newcomer

35:54

who is just like brand new to the sport is

35:56

really excited, but isn't fully educated. Having

35:59

a tool like Trello routes. Now we'll tell them

36:01

the special regulations of every stream, including

36:04

the likes of Michigan and. That was actually

36:06

a very complex thing. We just did a about

36:08

a month ago. So that's really helpful, but I

36:10

think I'm stepping back a minute.

36:12

I think there's a lot of really complex

36:14

issues. Related to

36:16

how to responsibly use like mobile

36:19

apps and technology when it comes to fly fishing.

36:21

And so we're, obviously right in the middle of

36:23

it. And I think one, one one of the most

36:25

valid debates that we have been part of

36:27

is. Whether or not something like trout

36:29

routes leads to over pressure. And

36:32

I think that's a very, you. Meaningful conversation.

36:36

One approach that we've taken is

36:38

to really ensure that

36:40

every stream in a state that we cover

36:42

that can, or does have cold

36:45

water species, like trout is mapped.

36:47

And what that means is rather than mapping out the top

36:50

five streams in Michigan and having them all go

36:52

to the streams that we all know about. Our

36:54

approach to really every single

36:56

trout stream and every single public land parcel.

36:59

And our thought there is to really help spread. People

37:01

out, we think that's really, it's really

37:03

what we're seeing is people. And

37:06

finding these new waters and not

37:08

overpopulating, the places that we all know. And

37:10

we really do think that a tool like

37:12

trout routes will actually help overcrowding.

37:15

Especially considering it does not do anything

37:18

to the hotspotting issue, which is

37:20

where you broadly share a specific point

37:23

that is apparently good for fishing on social media

37:25

which we don't do. There's a lot of complex issues, but I think

37:27

we're doing a decent

37:30

slash pretty good job of. The

37:32

best, most responsible way to do it.

37:35

And then the last thing I would say is as we're going

37:37

through and growing our business, we think it's really

37:39

important to always give back to conservation

37:42

groups. So I'm part of the board of trout

37:44

unlimited in the twin cities. And

37:46

we contribute to the national charter limited

37:48

On an annual basis. And we also do

37:50

a lot of volunteering. And sponsorship

37:53

of local chapter meetings and

37:55

there's a. Cause even fishing tournament for youth

37:57

in Pennsylvania that we're doing in a few weeks. So

38:00

congrats. It sounds like a lot of fun

38:02

through. That's also how we

38:04

connected them as you are at the Midwest fly

38:06

fishing expo. So you are.

38:09

Your chart rounds and trout insights

38:11

are all over the place. I would say. Oh,

38:14

that's awesome. Yeah, exactly. You

38:17

did bring up. A good point about

38:19

how you guys are mapping the entire stream.

38:21

Because one thing that I

38:24

feel is very important. Being,

38:26

I used to live in Kalamazoo, which is right

38:28

there on the Kalamazoo river. I

38:30

used to do a lot of fishing right. In urban

38:33

areas. And that's one thing that

38:35

I feel like what's your out, it's still

38:37

shows people like you don't need

38:39

to, you have nature in your backyard.

38:43

You don't have to go to these places that are

38:45

far away. Yeah,

38:48

I think that's so in Michigan alone, I think there was,

38:50

I don't know, two on TV. 500

38:53

or something, more trout stream.

38:55

We just added a Utah this week, which was,

38:58

400 streams, which is actually pretty

39:00

light for most of our states. So I

39:02

think the main takeaway is that we really do try and make sure

39:04

that you, as an angler are aware of all

39:06

the trout streams around you. So you don't need to go

39:08

to the most crowded and popular places.

39:11

And so it is really about education on where

39:13

Trout's rooms are and how to publicly access them. Definitely.

39:17

And then if you had to pick,

39:19

so you don't have to name.

39:22

The exact stream, but if you had a region

39:24

or a location, as well as a

39:27

certain species, what would be

39:29

that place in fish?

39:33

Oh man. That's a tough one. The

39:35

Driftless is pretty near and dear to

39:37

me. And I think I'm okay saying

39:40

that. Cause it's pretty well known at this point, that area.

39:42

There's a few places out west.

39:45

That I would consider. Pretty

39:47

darn near and dear to me that I found.

39:50

So I would say, we'll just call it central

39:52

Rocky area. You can just say Colorado.

39:55

Where the. Quite a ways from Denver. I feel like

39:57

around Denver, he gets a little bit too crowded,

39:59

a little bit too crazy. The flag patient seen there

40:01

is a little bit intense. But I think the home waters

40:03

of the Driftless is pretty incredible, pretty under

40:05

appreciated. Yeah. As far as species,

40:08

I feel like I'm still scratching the surface with some

40:10

stuff. I think I just started and starting to get into cuts.

40:12

Cutthroats that's a really fun experience

40:14

because it typically takes you way up into the mountains

40:17

and in terms of. Exploration

40:19

and adventure, and those are those will definitely get you out

40:21

there. But yeah, I would say either Browns Brooks.

40:23

It's all pretty much good to me. Awesome.

40:27

So in terms of,

40:29

we're going to shift gears a little bit.

40:32

So you so you here

40:34

are more of a jazz hip

40:36

hop. Fan,

40:38

do you have at least a few songs

40:41

for us or a certain band or two

40:43

that we can add to the playlist when

40:45

we get that off? Jeez.

40:48

If we have to, I guess I

40:50

would say like Pete rock and seal

40:52

smooth are. It's a combo. I listen

40:54

to pretty often like the instrumentals. Nice.

40:58

I've been listening to

41:00

a lot of It's

41:02

like just whatever. Spotify

41:05

throws me, but lately it's been

41:07

a lot of like smooth guitar or like

41:10

smooth guitar, hip hop. So

41:12

I feel you there. Cool.

41:15

Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff out there. Yeah, a lot

41:18

of stuff is typically for me, like I like instrumentals

41:20

kinda like the jazzy hip hop type

41:23

combination has been my go-to really

41:25

for 10 years. It's going to good for, if you're in the zone,

41:27

if you're doing work or studying or reading.

41:29

Is that like what you listened to when

41:31

you pull up to, when you're like pulling up to

41:33

your parking spot to go fish, is that

41:35

what you're jamming to? Or do you have a Anthem

41:38

that you're like, I gotta blast this before I hit

41:40

the water. No,

41:43

I try and either have nothing

41:45

at all, or, just like really

41:47

casual, like relaxing. That

41:49

kind of the jazz hip hop stuff. But I

41:51

have a strict rule of no music when you're coming up.

41:53

Just because it's there's so many things in my

41:55

world these days that keep me busy in my head.

41:57

So when I'm out fishing and I do everything

42:00

I can to force myself to slow down. So

42:02

even like music in the background, even if it's chill,

42:04

reggae stuff, I still say no that's

42:06

your time to be quiet. To be listening

42:09

to be present, to be watching and just try to

42:11

be as relaxed as you can. So I try to

42:13

actually keep it quiet. I like that. So

42:15

you use even like your drive out to the water

42:17

is like your moment for clarity to

42:20

rinse the pallet or rinse the chalkboard.

42:23

A hundred percent. Nice.

42:25

Nice. There's days like

42:27

that for free, even, I

42:30

would say I'm a little less busy nowadays, but

42:32

sometimes you just, you want the

42:35

quiet ride over there, you don't need to be

42:37

blessed in anything. Yeah.

42:40

There's some days where you're, it's a big trip out west

42:42

and you've been waiting for it for three months and you're with some

42:44

friends, but generally speaking,

42:46

most of my trips are day trips

42:48

and they're a pretty

42:50

Few and far between these days. So I try and keep it

42:52

relaxing. Nice. Yeah.

42:55

Like we were talking, you just said

42:57

like on our last call, you were like, I'm so

42:59

busy. I've got all this stuff going on. I was like, how

43:02

does he even find time to fish? So

43:04

how do you find time to fish? That's

43:06

the saddest thing is I my background is

43:08

I came from engineering in a kind of

43:10

a corporate medical device world, and

43:12

I fished more. Then

43:14

than I do now that I run trout runs.

43:17

Full-time. A fly fishing company.

43:19

Full-time I fish last because it's just, as

43:21

a small business, a small growing business, you just,

43:23

there's so many things to do. And there's so many opportunities

43:26

to go after. And. It's, when

43:28

you talk to fly shop owners and even sometimes

43:30

guys, they say the same thing. As you pick your passion

43:32

for your work and all the sudden you don't have the passion anymore. I

43:34

mean you do, but you don't get time to get out. Hopefully that'll

43:37

change in the next year or two. Yeah,

43:39

amen to that. And starting, with

43:41

all the retreats and stuff, I can

43:43

completely empathize with

43:45

you because there's days where

43:47

it's I've got to set this up, I've got to do this and

43:49

that. And then before I know it, I'm like, I've talked

43:51

about fishing all day, but when did I get on the

43:54

water? Yeah. It's

43:56

such a, it's such a blessing to be able to have that as

43:58

your, as a, your day job to be able to do something

44:00

that's related to your passion, but it is

44:02

true that you gotta be careful with Time to actually

44:04

do like the fishing to getting out. Yeah.

44:07

Yeah. So when you do

44:09

get out, I know you said that trout

44:11

routes is like your number one item

44:14

you can't live without. Do you have anything that you

44:16

keep in your bag or something

44:18

that. You're just like, man,

44:20

this item. Yeah,

44:23

let's say I was to go out today,

44:26

which is a mid may

44:28

in the Driftless. I really

44:30

enjoy. I have a small seven

44:32

and a half foot three weight, which

44:34

is just a crazy fun ride. And

44:37

it's really fun to bring to that and like

44:40

a pocket full of Adams and like pretty

44:42

much that's it. Like really simple,

44:44

don't over complicate it and just go out

44:46

there and find something that. Even

44:48

if you're just casting for fun, but typically those atoms

44:51

will parachute out. It was pretty much matched, most

44:53

things that are going on out there so that the candidates

44:55

you can Twitch it. If it's if it's a mayfly, you can drift

44:57

it and. There's something to be said for

45:00

keeping things simple. So sometimes

45:02

I'll have waiters and like all kinds of different

45:04

weights and all kinds of different Tippett and

45:06

four different fly boxes. And

45:09

you get so overwhelmed with your options and your tools

45:11

that you don't, you. So you lose that present presence of

45:13

mind. My go-to and my only

45:16

thing would probably be that seven and a half foot, three

45:18

weight, and a couple of parachute Adams.

45:21

My, my two weights, my favorite

45:23

rad. I

45:25

have a nine foot, two weight and

45:27

people look at me like I'm insane. I'm

45:29

like, look at my little. It

45:31

looks like a little Willow branch. I'm like,

45:33

I love this thing. They're like, When

45:36

you touch on that You kept to branch. What

45:38

do you use that thing for? Cause like I

45:40

know so many people love bigger

45:43

rods, but there's something so fun

45:45

about that really lightweight equipment.

45:47

Cause it. It's just a straight shot

45:50

between you and the fish. Yeah.

45:52

And I think that the shorter rods are interesting

45:54

because like in the. Breathless, like some

45:57

of the streams get really small and a

45:59

lot of the traffic goes to the streams that have no.

46:01

The brush recover. And so sometimes

46:03

you'll just find these tiny little streams

46:05

that no one is fishing, but you

46:08

sneak up in the woods and you see these

46:10

rises and you have this little tiny seven. Foot

46:12

three weight. And he Slingshot a little

46:14

parachute in there and it's it's that is quite the experience.

46:17

Yeah. So it's very satisfying.

46:20

It's you can just crawl around and sneak

46:22

up on them. And that, that

46:24

I can completely agree with you. Zach is

46:26

some of the funnest stuff you can do. Yeah,

46:29

it'll keep you hooked for several years for

46:31

sure. That

46:34

is all the questions and

46:36

what we are going to cover for today

46:39

Is there any way that our

46:41

audience can reach out to

46:43

you or find you to learn

46:45

more about The app because We

46:48

covered so many wonderful things about

46:50

the application i want to make sure that people

46:52

know where to find you and know how to find the app

46:54

and get started with it since i

46:57

found it extremely valuable so

46:59

i know others could as well

47:03

Yeah one thing I think That's cool about us is we're

47:05

a really small local midwest company you can

47:07

always email me literally directly at

47:09

Z pope At trout insights.com

47:12

and we also have kind of a main social

47:15

instagram page called trout routes So

47:18

pretty easy to get ahold of us I Pretty much work all day

47:20

all night most people that email me get a response

47:22

in five minutes so i'm always

47:24

love hearing from anglers in the field Definitely

47:27

i knew you were even saying you're like

47:29

customer service like you

47:31

had customer service stories for us

47:34

Yeah i'm currently doing this podcast in

47:36

a dark garage so when i

47:38

say small company it's just me And

47:42

She's on video he's hanging out in his garage

47:44

so it is a small

47:46

company that i know that you

47:48

have been pounding the pavement

47:50

from all of your stories too, to really

47:52

get this out there so we hardcore

47:55

trout anglers that like to go crawl around in the woods

47:58

thank you Of

48:00

course yeah i look forward to hearing

48:02

from other anglers and thanks so much Once

48:05

again, thank you to Zach Pope.

48:08

From trout insights,

48:10

the creator. Of

48:12

trout routes. If you haven't

48:15

had a chance. To

48:17

check out the app, please go do so.

48:20

It is a fantastic resource

48:22

and tool to have in your back pocket.

48:24

Is you're out there exploring the summer.

48:27

I hope you have a great time

48:29

on the water. And

48:31

as always stay fly,

48:33

curious. Loop to loop

48:35

is a mindful trout production