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4. Adventuring further with the power of technology featuring Zach Pope from Trout Routes

4. Adventuring further with the power of technology featuring Zach Pope from Trout Routes

Released Friday, 3rd June 2022
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4. Adventuring further with the power of technology featuring Zach Pope from Trout Routes

4. Adventuring further with the power of technology featuring Zach Pope from Trout Routes

4. Adventuring further with the power of technology featuring Zach Pope from Trout Routes

4. Adventuring further with the power of technology featuring Zach Pope from Trout Routes

Friday, 3rd June 2022
Good episode? Give it some love!
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Episode Transcript

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0:01

Hello, and welcome back

0:04

to loop to loop. We have

0:06

taken a slight hiatus to

0:08

go wander around the

0:10

countryside of Michigan

0:13

catching trout. And.

0:17

Getting out and fishing as much as possible.

0:19

This week's episode, we're talking

0:22

with Zach Pope. From

0:24

trout insights, which

0:27

is the company. That creates

0:29

and manages trout routes.

0:32

If you're not aware of this app. Is

0:35

a great way to navigate. Navigate

0:37

new water. Water. And also

0:40

find new places to

0:42

fish specifically for trout.

0:45

I really enjoy this app. Since

0:47

it helps me find boat launches. Gives

0:50

me insights on regulation

0:53

and also is really handy on

0:55

understanding where public land is.

0:59

I hope you enjoy our conversation

1:02

is we talk about. The

1:04

enjoyment of fly fishing. And

1:07

really why. Good

1:09

tools. That are affordable

1:12

are important. So let's

1:15

dig in. Sweet. Alright.

1:17

We are excited today. We

1:19

have Zach Pope from trout insights,

1:22

which is the company that

1:24

works on trout routes. If any of you

1:26

ever tried it today. Welcome Zach.

1:29

Thank you for joining us. Thanks

1:31

so much for having me. All right. We

1:33

are. We're curious, Zach, how did you

1:36

get into fly fishing and

1:38

what do you really like about it in terms of

1:40

everyday. Practice.

1:44

Yeah. So I got into trout fishing.

1:46

Specifically fly fishing for me about

1:49

15 years ago.

1:52

We were cleaning out the garage

1:54

of my grandpa who passed way before.

1:56

I ever was born, so

1:58

I never met him, but I saw this crazy

2:00

looking very long, very stiff.

2:03

Flyer out in the garage. And then I'd

2:05

always had this appreciation. And

2:08

this envy of these people that do this fly fishing.

2:10

I sat and got really excited

2:13

and enamored with it and picked it up and

2:15

started self-teaching myself for,

2:17

honestly it was several years. And

2:19

I think the thing that I really just fell in

2:21

love with is that. For me, it

2:23

brought me to places that I normally never

2:25

would have otherwise been to. It's a really

2:27

big, like exploratory. Concept

2:30

behind fly fishing where, you find yourself these

2:32

gorgeous valleys are Meadows. And

2:35

for me, it's, it honestly is not about catching fish.

2:37

It's really about finding yourself in new places

2:39

and exploring. So I've been doing it for 15 years. I'm still

2:42

pretty, pretty pretty terrible at

2:44

it. But I'm getting better and it's a learning process

2:46

for everyone for kind of. For kind of life. Yeah, happy

2:48

to be here. And again, thanks for having me. Yeah,

2:50

thanks. Thanks for joining us. You said you

2:52

found your grandpa's rat in the garage. Was

2:55

that your first fly rod? I

2:57

wish I could say that I had

2:59

that rod for seven years and caught my

3:01

first trout on it. I kid you not,

3:04

this thing was like a metal

3:06

rod. It was like this. For

3:08

those folks that know, the, some of the technical

3:11

terminology, there's like a weight concept

3:13

behind a fly rod, or it's essentially, it talks

3:15

about how stiff the rod is. This thing was

3:17

like a metal rod. It was

3:19

just unusable. It was. Comical.

3:22

So really what happened is I took the fly right

3:24

out. I got really interested. I went to a fly shop.

3:26

They told me to. Essentially

3:28

throw it away and get anything other

3:30

than that. So I got a basically a really

3:33

low-cost starter kit. For ELA

3:35

a hundred bucks or something for the rod, the reel

3:37

and in the line. Which for me, honestly,

3:39

I'm actually a big proponent of, for beginners

3:41

because they're not perfect. They're not the most

3:44

high-tech, but man, they'll get general water.

3:46

So that my first flight. It was one of those starter kits

3:48

you get at bass pro shops or Dallas. And

3:51

those starter kits are awesome and it

3:53

they're nice because they are versatile and

3:55

you can get out and really try any water.

3:58

What was some of the first water that.

4:00

You tried fly fishing on. Yeah,

4:03

I'm actually based in Minneapolis

4:05

and Minnesota. And so I spent a lot of time.

4:08

In Southeast Minnesota, Southwest, Wisconsin.

4:11

That's what they call the Driftless area.

4:13

Probably 10 years ago. It was not as well known.

4:15

I think now it's getting a little bit more well-known

4:18

but these are pretty classic spring creeks.

4:20

They're small creeks. It's a really unique or

4:22

this area. And again, for me, half

4:24

the time I had finished, it was really just essentially

4:27

driving around. Since I didn't really truly

4:29

know how to fly fish or some of the technical aspects.

4:31

These are small streams. They're. Six to

4:34

at most. 20, maybe 30 feet

4:36

wide. Typically not a lot of crowds

4:39

pretty, pretty high. Preschool

4:41

key touchy fish. But there's a lot

4:43

of farms, a lot of Meadows pretty cool stuff.

4:45

No, don't those don't. In the drift

4:47

list, don't those disappear, like you'll have

4:49

a Creek or a river that will come up

4:51

for a few, like a mile

4:53

or two, and then it just goes back under water.

4:56

Yeah it's really a crazy area. You'll be

4:58

tracking a stream or blue lighting and,

5:01

you'll be seeing this. A hundred CFS stream

5:03

and, carrying it around and going from bridge to bridge. And

5:06

I don't know where it's gone. It's dry. And

5:08

because they're, spring-fed, they go. They have

5:10

this. In some places it's really

5:12

crazy how advanced the tunnel and

5:14

the cave systems are underneath, but essentially

5:17

the streams will go under the ground and we'll go.

5:19

Deep underground, where typically they're actually cool.

5:22

That's kind of part of what makes them a great trout

5:24

stream as they go under the ground, become

5:26

the spring and come back up, let you know, later

5:28

three miles down and they had this really

5:30

cool kind of cooling effect. And

5:33

then that's part of what makes the Driftless so cool. But

5:36

it's very odd as a new angler, as a, as

5:38

an angler, new to the area, it's like, where the heck did this

5:40

truck string go? Yeah. You're just

5:42

walking and then it just disappears. You're like, oh,

5:44

okay. So that's probably

5:46

what intrigued you to

5:49

go out and really explore is in

5:52

Wisconsin and Minnesota, you guys don't

5:54

have a consistent, it doesn't come to a head

5:56

or a confluence. It just. It

5:59

disappears. Yeah,

6:01

the whole spring fed like ecosystem

6:04

of the Driftless is definitely really interesting.

6:06

But honestly, when you're first getting

6:08

started and all, is your environment.

6:11

It's, that's not what really intrigued

6:13

me because that's just what I became. I came to know

6:15

as the standard. And really

6:17

when I started going out west and, I guess

6:19

a little bit out east, those rivers became pretty

6:21

odd to me because they're seasonally.

6:23

Very. They're very different in the foam

6:25

or just the spring versus the summer. Whereas

6:28

in the Driftless, it's incredibly consistent

6:30

outside of, rain events or some marginal

6:32

snow events. But really what really

6:34

kept me going the first couple of years

6:37

is that the more in tune

6:39

you are with your surroundings and

6:41

the more. You pay attention

6:43

to really the most detailed.

6:46

Natural aspects of your surroundings, the better you

6:49

are, the more effective you are at. Your

6:51

goal, which is eventually to catch fish. For me,

6:53

it was more exploring, but it

6:55

really is a activity or a sport

6:57

that pushes you to be more present. And

7:00

that is a thing that I think all of us

7:02

could always work on. And for me, I definitely strive

7:04

to be more present and. Really

7:06

fly fishing and the things that make

7:08

you good at fly fishing is what helped me be

7:10

more present. So these are things

7:12

like getting to the stream and intentionally

7:15

not fishing for an hour and really

7:17

just sitting. Like literally

7:19

just sitting there staring at your screenings.

7:21

And the longer that you sit there and the longer that you pay attention

7:23

to. The bugs and the rocks and the water.

7:26

Really the better that you get in, the more precedent that you

7:28

get. So those are the things that really grew

7:31

drew me in. The first, probably five

7:33

years. Nice. So did you find yourself

7:35

maybe like sitting on a bank, overturning

7:38

rocks to see what kind of nips

7:40

or like what you maybe had in your

7:42

fly box that matched. What

7:44

was in your hand, on the rock? Yeah.

7:47

Eventually, the, a really good process.

7:50

Eventually as to yeah. Go and flip over some

7:52

rocks and look at what kind of bugs are there and

7:55

see if you can learn about what's going on

7:57

in the water and potentially start matching your

7:59

flies to, what's under the rocks. You

8:01

can also look at, what's

8:03

going on under the rocks in terms of what might

8:05

happen later down, later in the day.

8:08

So you can look at. Or the bugs starting to

8:10

come out of their shells. Are they starting to hatch a little bit?

8:13

There's a lot of things that you can read, but for me, honestly,

8:15

it was, I just really loved learning about what bugs

8:17

are in there. Are there bugs under the rocks? What

8:19

kinds of rocks are they like? But also

8:22

there's a lot of stuff that goes on above the water.

8:24

Outside of the hatching insects that

8:26

we spend a lot of time on, I learned from a guide

8:29

in I think it was Colorado. On

8:31

the frying pan, he really taught me to

8:34

look very carefully at spiderwebs.

8:36

Not only because, Spiders are cool. And they're interested

8:38

in, they are a food source for trout,

8:41

but you can learn a lot about what kinds

8:43

of bugs are flying around in that area around that

8:45

same time of day, around that same day.

8:48

You can learn from. From

8:51

like spider webs from the racks from,

8:53

there's like mice tracks and look at, which is a whole nother

8:56

hour discussion. But. Mostly

8:58

and can turn into that, that could turn into a half-day

9:01

talk for me. I love. My gosh, I've

9:04

just been scratching the surface. So I think mostly

9:07

I would have questions for you if we started talking about it. Yeah,

9:09

that's, it's so fun to be able to go

9:11

out in the middle of the night. And a lot

9:13

of times when we're new anglers, we forget

9:16

that trout, especially trout

9:18

are primarily nocturnal creatures.

9:20

So to go out at night

9:23

when we're almost handicapped in there,

9:25

they're in their element is so fun.

9:28

So I have a very random story

9:30

that will go off on a tangent on real quick. I've always

9:32

been like really curious about

9:34

this concept of like mice fishing, where.

9:37

Yeah. Especially if you're new to. Typically

9:40

you think of these tiny little insects and

9:42

there you're such a casting the weight of your line.

9:44

And these tiny little things, and these fish

9:47

come up and eat these tiny little insects, and

9:49

all of a sudden you start thinking about throwing like a

9:52

mouse pattern, the size of your hand, and it just breaks

9:54

your mind. It's very hard to think about. And

9:56

the reality is typically these huge

9:58

trout will really become predatory at night.

10:00

And that's really when you're supposed to do most fishing.

10:03

I've tried it a few times at night, but the one

10:05

and only time I've ever had success.

10:07

Throwing a massive mouse pattern for trout.

10:10

Was on this one, we'll name it,

10:12

but on this river in Colorado, in the middle

10:14

of a sunny day, we're talking like sun

10:17

was probably right straight

10:19

above me. We're talking like two o'clock in the afternoon.

10:22

There's this whole with this tree

10:24

overhanging the whole. And

10:26

I think it was like, I think it was a black caddis hatch.

10:29

At the moment and they were just being really aggressive. And I said, you

10:31

know what? Screw it. They're being really aggressive.

10:33

Maybe I have a shot. I just tossed,

10:36

Literally talks to this giant mouse pattern and started

10:38

twitching it. And the only time I've ever

10:40

had a trout today, a. Top

10:42

water mouse pattern. That is unbelievable

10:45

during. During the day. I've

10:48

taken some out and I've been a little

10:50

bit brave during the day. I've never

10:52

gotten a bite. It's always been when

10:55

I'm at my worst and they're at

10:57

their best. And that's

10:59

what you would expect because a lot of times,

11:01

middle of the day, there's a lot of sun, the Fisher

11:03

spooky. They don't come up to hit, 20

11:06

atoms, but all of a sudden you're throwing like

11:08

a size zero, a mousepad

11:11

or whatever. They are. So it was

11:13

pretty cool. I've never done it ever since I've tried

11:15

it at night and I've gotten nothing but branches.

11:17

A pretty cool experience. That is too cool.

11:19

So it's it's almost like one of those. Meditative

11:23

like practice moments where you were. So

11:25

in, in the moment of, the Fisher

11:27

just being aggressive and you

11:29

realized it. Let's see if they'll play with

11:31

something huge. Yeah.

11:34

I think it, it comes down to what your goals

11:37

are when you're on the water. But, for me, I

11:39

had already gotten a few on this black cat

11:41

attach I had already gotten that experience.

11:44

And I could've stayed there and, just. Completely

11:47

tripping up the numbers and gotten, back to back.

11:49

But I, one experience I've never had

11:51

at that moment was catching something on a mouse pattern.

11:54

For my goals and in terms of getting new experiences

11:56

and learning a lot while I'm on the water, I said, I would

11:58

love to learn. If these things will

12:00

hit a mouse in the middle of the day. And I don't

12:02

know what I learned from that, but. It definitely

12:04

worked. I. I guess there's. Always

12:06

exceptions to the rules. Yeah,

12:10

I've heard that. I've definitely heard that. That's

12:12

awesome. Yeah, I can

12:15

completely. Relate

12:17

to that story because while

12:20

I was out west or. In

12:22

West Virginia last week. Everyone,

12:26

everyone out there is really big into

12:28

nymph fishing and we're in this tiny

12:30

Creek and. Up

12:32

in the mountains, in this tiny Creek,

12:34

all the other rivers were blown out and,

12:37

my friends, I was with they're throwing

12:39

nymphs and I finally,

12:41

I got stuck too many times with the indicator

12:44

rag and I was like, you know what? I

12:46

need to go back to My micro streamers

12:48

and the only fish we saw

12:50

the entire day was me

12:52

stripping a little teeny tiny

12:55

like size eight hook

12:57

streamer. That

12:59

was awesome. It's so funny

13:02

because it's like you have so many

13:04

rules you want to follow and then with fly

13:06

fishing, you can just decide one

13:08

afternoon. You're like, I'm going to break it and see what

13:10

happens. Yeah,

13:12

I think that's a really cool. Cool, like concept

13:15

is that. I go out west,

13:18

I think to some of those technical tailwaters

13:20

they have these incredibly specific

13:22

rules. Sets and like instructions,

13:25

like there's a couple of Tailwater in Colorado

13:27

that have these mice, a shrimp. It's like

13:29

there's three waters. Apparently the country

13:31

that had them, they tell you, you will not catch

13:33

anything unless you have an incredibly

13:35

perfect Drake free drift. It's

13:38

gotta be weighted. It's gotta be a size 18.5,

13:41

my SIS shrimp white. And if

13:43

you don't have that, then you know, you're completely never

13:45

gonna catch anything. But if you do you'll catch, 24

13:47

inch, whatever. And the rules

13:49

get really intense out there. And sometimes it's good to just

13:52

like bringing your intuition, bringing your observation

13:54

and try something different. So it sounds

13:57

like it worked well for you there. Yeah.

13:59

So it's almost A lot of the guides are almost

14:01

like professors. Would you say.

14:04

Yeah, Of course, that's there's a lot

14:06

of different guides out there, different types of guides. But

14:08

I think, my observation is definitely a west specifically,

14:10

like Colorado is some of those waters

14:13

are so technical and they see so many anglers

14:15

that they just, they tell, what works and

14:17

what has worked for them. And that typically can

14:19

be, that the ticket, but sometimes it is

14:21

nice to have an outsider's perspective come in and

14:23

bring again their intuition and their observation.

14:26

To try something new, but especially with

14:28

the guys out there, cause they spend so much time out

14:30

there. They see it and they see their

14:32

surroundings more than anyone else. So they're definitely

14:34

the professor type. Yeah.

14:38

So when you're traveling a lot of times

14:40

what are you primarily looking

14:42

for? When you're

14:44

out hunting fish, are there certain locations?

14:47

Are there certain opportunities

14:50

that you go to in order to collect

14:52

new information? Yeah.

14:55

You don't like typically try to find there's

14:58

a sweet spot of like rivers

15:00

that I know are productive because

15:02

they have some knowledge about them, either

15:05

from books or from online

15:07

here and there. But also I

15:09

try to find places that are not obviously going to

15:11

have a lot of traffic. And so it's

15:14

a good segue into what I do for work, which is travel

15:16

routes. When I first started fly fishing,

15:19

I was really enamored by this

15:21

idea that you get to go travel

15:23

and basically be somewhere new every day. You get

15:25

to find yourself in someone's private farm

15:28

because they have an easement or you get to go to

15:30

a state park because there's a trout stream. And

15:32

I love that idea of it, but I also

15:34

felt like there was this

15:37

big barrier. Of you. Lack

15:39

of information out there as far as where

15:41

are these trout streams and where are the

15:44

public access points that I can legally

15:46

get to, to get onto this

15:48

water? And I spent so

15:50

much of my time manually mapping

15:53

my own data. Going and hand

15:55

drying things and Google earth

15:57

and doing a lot of notes in my notebook.

15:59

Yeah. I noticed there are

16:02

definitely certain tools that

16:04

most states provide and they're all. They're

16:06

all useful, but they're also all

16:08

lacking in some way or another.

16:11

And for me, traveling is such a

16:13

big part of my fly fishing experience,

16:15

specifically across state lines that I

16:18

don't want to have to relearn

16:20

all the tools from one state to the next.

16:23

And so pretty early on, I decided that there was

16:25

this big missing opportunity

16:27

in a really good mapping system for

16:29

specifically made for trout anglers.

16:32

And honestly these days I would love

16:34

do, tell you that I don't use something

16:36

like trout routes, but I actually do. I

16:38

see the tool as well. Like to

16:40

me, I it's such a valuable

16:43

resource and, once

16:45

you pair it. So if you're a new

16:47

Adler, a lot of times what we're looking

16:49

at is the flows of water or CFM.

16:52

So how much water is being

16:54

pushed through there. So when you pair

16:56

something like trout routes, if you can find

16:58

gauges, which a lot of these rivers

17:01

you can't, once you get so far into kind

17:03

of the smaller water. Between

17:05

your gauges. An app

17:07

like trout routes and then

17:09

understanding stocking schedules. If

17:11

the state you're in or stocking. You

17:14

can start to hunt the fish. Yeah.

17:18

There, there is no shortage of water out

17:21

there. I think that's, I really do feel

17:23

like the fly fishing sport. Still

17:25

has a lot of unnecessary barriers

17:27

to it where I think there's a lot of really

17:30

good people that would make for great

17:32

conservationists that would be in our sport.

17:34

If they had less intimidation

17:37

or less barriers to get into it. And

17:39

one of those barriers is just like clean,

17:42

clear access to information. I think there's still

17:44

a lot of barriers. Some of them are unintentional.

17:47

Some of them are intentional. And

17:49

that's our mission at trunk routes is to make

17:51

access to information more accessible.

17:54

And through, through really good maps. So we have

17:56

all the stream gauges. We have all the public access. We

17:58

have all the rivers. Pretty much

18:00

everything that you would ever want to need. Gotta have.

18:02

And I typically look for like when I go

18:04

out, if I were going to, Michigan, I try to look

18:06

for. Typically spring-fed creeks

18:08

that are, a class one or

18:11

higher in our system. And

18:13

I look for, I really. Like where

18:16

you have the stream, you follow it way up into

18:18

the headwaters. And then the road stops. There's typically

18:20

like a parking lot and a trail that goes way up. And

18:22

typically like most people, I shouldn't say most,

18:24

but typically most people don't go very

18:26

far from their car. And so if

18:28

you find those headwaters where there's this, the road

18:31

stops and there's a little parking lot

18:33

and you can hike your way up a mile in. You

18:35

won't find a soul. It's great fishing.

18:37

I try to find those kinds of sweet spots. Yeah.

18:41

Yeah. So with those sorts of class

18:43

one and two you're looking

18:45

for really the more of

18:47

a limited access where you're

18:49

going to work for the fifth. You're

18:51

going to, you're going to be having. Having

18:53

an adventure for the afternoon. Yeah,

18:57

and I think it it always will come back to your goals,

18:59

but I think a lot of us are looking

19:01

for not just fish in hand, they're

19:03

looking for. An adventure. And experienced

19:06

getting last dozen bad. And yeah.

19:08

There are plenty of trout streams that actually go

19:10

through. Cities and towns. There's like the blue river

19:13

in Silverthorne, Colorado,

19:15

which is a pretty classic there's strip malls literally

19:17

next to one of the best trout streams in the state.

19:20

But I think for a lot of us, we look for.

19:22

Places that are only accessible via a

19:24

one mile trail. Because there's gonna be less people.

19:27

You have to work for the trout and it's gonna be that much

19:29

more engaging in nature. You're gonna

19:31

be that much more present. Yeah. Yeah. Those

19:33

are the best places to go out and,

19:35

maybe take yourself a little lunch or

19:37

a pack of snack and just

19:40

relax and watch what's

19:42

going on around you. Because especially

19:45

if you live in a town or you're. Around

19:47

other people. It's a break. I

19:51

was actually gonna say that too, is that

19:54

one thing that I started trying doing is,

19:56

and this is probably weird. Hopefully

19:59

not, but I've actually started

20:01

going to trout streams without

20:03

a fly rod. And I'll literally just pack like

20:05

a coffee maker in a pack

20:07

and go like snack. And it sounds

20:10

out, but actually it's really interesting because you go

20:12

to a trout stream. You're really excited to fly fish,

20:14

but you don't know your flight around. And so it forces

20:16

you to really truly be present. Sit

20:18

there for an hour, learn a lot

20:20

about what you'll see plenty of trout and you'll see plenty of insects.

20:23

And you'll be forced into this like level

20:25

of presence that you probably didn't have before. And

20:28

so I've been playing with that idea a little bit. The last, like

20:30

two years, that's been a cool experience. Yeah.

20:33

Some afternoons, there's nothing beats

20:35

just taking like. A sandwich

20:37

or some sort of snack with you and

20:40

just sitting there and watching them. Cause I that's

20:42

how I've learned the most over really

20:44

the past two years is having access

20:47

to public land as well as some of my own

20:50

little slice of private land. And you just

20:52

sit there and. You're curious.

20:54

You're like, what do you guys do? If no, one's around

20:56

with a fly rod. What's going on? Another

21:00

thing that I started playing with is bringing binoculars.

21:02

You go there, you go to a street and you're sitting there

21:04

and that's awesome. But if you add into

21:06

that, the nodular. You can really start studying

21:08

those trout and. It's funny. The

21:11

way that you said that it's almost like you want to spend a day

21:13

in the life of a trout and just like figure out.

21:15

What do they do? What are they looking at? How do

21:17

they move? What time of day do they move the most,

21:19

that kind of stuff. There's. There's just so much you can learn. Yeah.

21:22

And like you said, if you're bringing by now circulars

21:25

and you can look at your birds. Because

21:27

if you're noticing any Hawks

21:30

off sprayer, Eagles, You're

21:32

probably sitting somewhere where

21:34

there they want to fish. So

21:36

you're getting a bird's

21:38

eye view of what's going on. Yeah,

21:41

that's a great point. Great point. Yeah,

21:43

I can't tell you how many. Times I've been low

21:46

hold by an Eagle sitting like.

21:49

And the thing is I don't have binoculars.

21:52

I'm not thinking like a fish.

21:54

I'm thinking like a human and I'm

21:56

out there. Like, why is nothing there right

21:58

there? Why is nothing biting? And

22:00

then finally, after so long, you see

22:02

the bird takeoff and you're like they

22:05

saw it. How did I not see that?

22:08

It's so crazy how good their eyesight is.

22:10

I can't even comprehend it. Yeah.

22:12

Yeah, that, and if you walk up, just,

22:15

if you're trying to sneak up on a trail, And

22:18

you're on the bank. They can feel it. And they

22:20

know it's they're like, we're out, there's

22:22

a fisherman here. Yup. I

22:24

think that's like one of the, there's a couple

22:26

of. Like lessons that I

22:28

had to work through when I first started

22:31

fly fishing net. Can be frustrating when

22:33

you're first getting started and you can't quite figure out what you're

22:35

doing wrong. And one of them is it's so easy

22:37

to Spookfish. You might spend all your

22:39

time going to classes and fly casting classes

22:41

and. Entomology and you might be

22:43

really good at everything, except for the fact

22:45

that when you walk up to that stream, the fish were gone before

22:48

you had a chance to start. And so

22:50

being really mindful of, your presence

22:52

and how it's affecting the

22:55

trout and whether or not they're aware of you

22:57

is a huge lesson for kind of a

22:59

newcomer. Sometimes you literally have to

23:01

crawl 25 yards from AFT

23:03

bank all the way near the stream to cast,

23:06

just so you're not, speaking on. Which I've

23:08

done a few times. Yeah,

23:10

I don't know how often I crawl

23:12

through the river. I probably destroy

23:14

more waiters than most people because I'm

23:17

like on my knees, like scooting down river,

23:19

trying not to make my presence

23:21

known. It's honestly so

23:25

would you say for a beginner angler

23:28

in their getting started if they're looking

23:30

for fish, maybe warm water is a good

23:32

way to. To get your fix on

23:34

fish and in fraud are really about honing

23:36

in your skills. Yeah,

23:39

I really would. And I think, I've heard people

23:41

talk about that as a suggestion and I could

23:43

not agree more. If you have

23:45

the fortune to have a warm water

23:47

lake near you. It's a great place

23:50

to get your feet wet with a fly rod. And it's

23:52

specifically if you can go to the shoreline

23:55

of a other warm water. Lake. Between

23:58

say whatever may to September,

24:00

October and get some panfish, you

24:02

can cask get the feel for what it's

24:04

like to cast a line. Throw some

24:06

sort of little like spider or popper or whatever

24:09

and you can catch panfish and you'll be hooked. And

24:11

from there it's really about, like you said,

24:13

learning the entomology and kind of fine tuning.

24:16

The concept of going from Stillwater to moving water,

24:18

which is a big job, but it's much

24:21

easier and much more enjoyable if you

24:23

get your feet, but in a. At a warm water

24:26

lake first, not to mention

24:28

a delicious dinner. I've

24:30

never really gotten into eating fish.

24:33

I'm definitely a catch release person, not because,

24:35

I'm, I have some sort of philosophy against

24:37

keeping fish, but I just a picky eater. Never really got

24:39

into it. Yeah, I can't tell you

24:41

how many times I've tried. I've traded

24:44

in going trout fishing for I'm

24:46

like, you know what, some bluegill

24:48

on a frying pan. That's going

24:50

to hit the spot tonight for dinner. That's

24:53

awesome. So in

24:55

terms of using

24:58

an app and getting on public

25:00

land Really? What

25:02

has that provided? You

25:04

as well as people using your app. Because

25:08

public lands can be really intimidating

25:11

to know where to go or what to do.

25:15

Yeah, I think before you even get to public land,

25:17

I think one thing that, that I learned

25:19

that I think people learn using any

25:21

tool, whether it's, trout routes. Which

25:24

is our mapping tool or a state

25:26

tool is that there's a lot of trout water out

25:28

there more than most people realize. And

25:30

it's easy to know about the top 10

25:33

streams in Michigan or Colorado

25:35

or wherever. But I think a lot of people

25:37

don't realize that there's trunk water pretty close

25:39

to you. Nine times out of 10, maybe seven

25:41

times out of 10, unless you're in. Kansas

25:44

has four streams or something. And so

25:46

that's number one is just realizing and being

25:48

educated on where Trump streams are,

25:50

which is one of our, one of our main xenografts.

25:53

Repetitions as we spend a ton of time. Mapping

25:55

out the specific lines of all the trout

25:57

streams, cold water streams that can't have stocked

26:00

or wild trout. But then when you

26:02

add into that, this whole world

26:04

of private and public access, it

26:06

can be. Extremely intimidating and very

26:08

complex. And it can take the fun

26:11

out of the exploratory

26:13

aspect of fly fishing. 'cause

26:15

sometimes signs, sometimes you don't. Sometimes

26:17

you see cars, sometimes you don't. It's

26:20

just really hard to navigate. And it's one reason why

26:22

people keep going to the same spot

26:24

is because they're nervous to go somewhere new. And

26:26

for those reasons, along with many others, as we

26:28

felt, it was really useful

26:31

to spend a lot of time mapping out where all the

26:33

public land parcels are and then

26:35

maybe creating some more More

26:37

obvious. Annotations for, where the parking

26:39

lots are and where different access

26:41

points are and works like shops are. So

26:44

I think when you put it all together, it can be, it

26:46

can really, again, lower the barrier to

26:48

understand where to find trout and where to publicly

26:51

access them. The last, the other thing that I would say is

26:53

that each state is a very different with

26:55

what the legal access. R so

26:57

like a Minnesota, Wisconsin, that it's a fairly,

27:00

you know what I would call like a friendly approach

27:02

to legal access laws. Number

27:04

one number two is there's a really robust

27:07

easement program. Where, the

27:09

state or other agencies have

27:11

acquired. Essentially access

27:13

corridors to T trout streams. And

27:16

it's just an amazing program. It really provides

27:18

hundreds and hundreds of miles of public access

27:20

that you just don't have to worry about.

27:22

Landowners being, concerned about you being on their property

27:25

and all those challenging complex.

27:27

And so the Midwest is really good for that. Some states

27:29

like Colorado and there's a few out

27:32

west, or sorry, out east that are really

27:34

touchy with private access. Yeah. So

27:37

that's what I was going to ask next is,

27:39

Michigan, we have wonderful

27:42

easement rights. I can get on

27:44

it, my property and, if

27:46

I wanted to, I could walk five

27:48

miles up river and get out and not

27:51

have a problem. But I know

27:53

for instance, in Ohio,

27:55

if you. So

27:57

you're in public access land. If you come across

27:59

a fence, someone can fence the river off.

28:02

So how does your app account for

28:04

those nuances in those states where

28:06

you are currently mapping.

28:10

Yeah. So the key is to really know which

28:12

parcels of land are public

28:15

versus private. And then beyond that, it's

28:17

an understanding of what the laws are.

28:19

So let's just take that example. What

28:22

our tool would do and what probably is, there's some other

28:24

options out there in Ohio would tell

28:26

you which land parcels are public and where

28:28

the trout stream is. So you know where to ask

28:30

where to enter and then knowing

28:33

the Ohio laws, don't allow you to go beyond

28:35

fences that prevent navigable water

28:37

access. Then you would know not to cross

28:39

that debt. Sense. Whereas

28:41

in Wisconsin, as long as your feet are

28:43

wet you can, cut as long as your feet

28:45

are wet and the water is navigable from

28:47

a, like a watercraft at a kayak, you can continue

28:50

going, even if that's in private land. So

28:52

I think the combination of knowing where

28:55

the public land parcels are, which is what we do.

28:57

Along with the local laws of the state,

28:59

which we will be adding in the next month, then

29:02

that's pretty much all you need to know. Beyond

29:04

that though, I think there's still some further

29:06

nuance beyond what you legally have

29:08

access to. That is still an

29:10

important, like thing to understand, learn.

29:13

Let's say you're legally on a

29:15

trout water because your feet are wet in

29:17

Wisconsin. You still might have a landowner

29:19

that is really angry that you're there. And

29:21

so yeah, technically you could stay

29:23

there and we've had some of our users say they stayed

29:25

there and they've actually told me that Sheriff's

29:28

come on board or they investigate. And they

29:30

found out that because of our app, they learn

29:32

how to get under the water through an easement and

29:34

they were fine. But you're three hours

29:36

into a conflict and it's. Is that really

29:38

the goal of your day? If you're gonna have conflicts

29:40

with landowners. So we always try and say like,

29:43

when in doubt just try to respect landowners

29:45

that if there's a conflict, just avoid it

29:47

because there are some cases where you, we.

29:49

You probably have legal right away, but do you

29:51

really want a conflict? And I

29:53

think there's a lot of cases where. There's

29:56

that. And there's also a lot of these really

29:58

cool even programs that we have in Wisconsin

30:01

and Pennsylvania and a few others. We

30:03

depend on landowners being willing to play.

30:06

Yeah. And so if we have anglers out there

30:08

that are, kind of conflict, They're

30:10

like seeking conflict almost. It's just

30:12

not beneficial for our sport overall. W

30:14

we'll help you understand how to legally get

30:16

to a trout river. But I think,

30:19

if you're starting to have a conflict, we advise you

30:21

to just kinda get out of there. Yeah.

30:23

That makes good sense because I don't.

30:27

It's better to like, keep the landowners.

30:30

At least somewhat appeased then, stick

30:32

around and cause problems for them and

30:34

yourself. Yeah,

30:37

totally. How

30:39

do you as an app. With,

30:41

especially with the attention

30:43

that fly fishing has been receiving

30:46

and just how the industry

30:48

is starting to grow. How do you recommend

30:50

people responsibly participate? Dissipate

30:53

in the sport. Yeah,

30:57

that's a really good question. There's actually a lot

30:59

of I would say like anecdotal stories

31:02

that are very like, Disturbing

31:04

and disheartening about the influx

31:06

of new England's coming to the sport and either

31:08

intentionally or unintentionally. Creating

31:11

a very poor experience for either other anglers

31:13

or landowners. And

31:15

it's going to have a really unfortunate, long-term

31:18

effect. If we have participants in our sport,

31:20

creating poor experiences. And so

31:22

I think one thing is number

31:24

one, be educated, understand

31:27

what your. Where you're going in terms of is

31:29

it legal? Is it on public land?

31:31

Which is what our company's mission is currently.

31:36

Etiquette. And understanding

31:39

all kinds of things from, what

31:41

is it advisable to stop fishing for trout

31:43

when water temperatures go up? So that's one

31:45

concept. Another concept is if you're doing catch

31:47

and release first of all, only do catch

31:50

it early. So that's, what's legally required,

31:52

but also if you are, here's

31:54

how to do proper fishing annually. How do

31:56

you use social media and

31:58

fishing, which is a whole nother deal responsibly.

32:01

So some people might spend three minutes

32:03

trying to get a good shot of a fish. They caught. But

32:05

in the process they just told the other fish. So

32:07

I think there's a lot of like education. That

32:10

these newcomers will need to get better at.

32:13

And I think I actually would like to see our company do

32:15

a better job of that. So

32:17

as our company grows and becomes

32:19

this go-to for kinda

32:21

knowing where trout streams are and where public accesses.

32:24

And as we keep growing, I would like to see us take a more

32:27

lead position in trying

32:29

to onboard newcomers into our sport

32:31

in terms of education. So that

32:33

could be educating them on water temperature

32:35

could be educating them on proper fishing aniline.

32:38

Etiquette. How not to high whole people,

32:40

et cetera. Yeah. It's hard because

32:42

it's hard because you hear these stories and there's so much

32:45

you want to do, but the solutions are fairly

32:47

complex and fairly expensive to try and figure out

32:49

in terms of how to get us all

32:51

as an industry to respect the

32:53

experiences of others. Yeah. And

32:56

you brought up a really good point about social

32:58

media. And I,

33:00

even someone educated

33:02

me that on this about two years ago,

33:05

in terms like spot burning. So

33:08

one thing I really appreciate is on

33:10

the app. You don't have no

33:12

one can post. It's not a social media by

33:14

any means. Like no one can post

33:17

like bragging, photos of a fish. It's

33:19

just the data you need to get to the point

33:21

you're going to. Yeah.

33:25

I think you said it better than I could have. We get

33:27

a lot of, sorry. We get

33:29

some negative reactions

33:31

from people in the industry, because I think they

33:33

assume that we're like the fish brain of fly

33:35

fishing, but we never

33:37

have never will do anything related to

33:39

community, social media sharing

33:41

spots. So it really is

33:43

just a mapping platform to help you get on the water.

33:46

Like we're not, you can't share stuff with friends, you can't

33:48

create a profile. You can't. There's

33:50

a lot of stuff you can't do in our app

33:52

with respect to sharing and social media.

33:55

And that's just part of our DNA.

33:57

We'll never allow that. So I appreciate

33:59

you bringing that up. Yeah, I really do

34:01

appreciate that because I've looked at other

34:03

apps. I've tried them and, The

34:06

main thing is. Did you get

34:08

more involved in trope fishing and

34:10

fly fishing is you almost want to find

34:12

those hidden places and you're out

34:14

really. It makes it possible

34:17

to keep them somewhat. Unknown

34:19

from the rest of the community or

34:22

from people that are just out there looking to,

34:24

get what I like to call gripping grins.

34:28

Yeah. Yeah,

34:30

kudos to you guys on that front. And

34:33

really bringing a lot of really great information

34:35

together for people that are new to

34:37

the sport because, When you're first

34:39

starting this, it is intimidating

34:42

to. Decide,

34:44

where am I going to go? How am I going to do this?

34:46

And in having some more. That

34:48

brings, you, you brought

34:50

up class one streams,

34:52

you guys have all of that

34:55

information as well as. What's

34:58

advisable to do for that water.

35:00

So for Michigan, for instance, we have

35:02

a very limited trout season. I

35:04

do appreciate that. You guys mentioned,

35:06

this is water. You can only fish at this certain

35:08

time a year. Because for new

35:10

anglers, I have approached

35:13

people that are on a river

35:15

in the middle of the winter, and I'm like, Hey, this

35:17

is a class one. This is a class two.

35:20

I would hate to see you guys get in trouble.

35:22

And so many times. I didn't

35:24

know this. So sometimes I am

35:27

throwing you guys. People like, even

35:29

if it is Educational Hey just

35:31

so you're aware. But that is very

35:33

important because each state

35:35

is so nuanced. Yeah.

35:38

Two things to break, break down there.

35:41

Phishing. Special regulations for

35:43

streams. Is, it has a really important

35:45

piece and educating anglers

35:47

on what those special regulations are.

35:50

It's a big piece of compliance. So to

35:52

your point, if you have a newcomer

35:54

who is just like brand new to the sport is

35:56

really excited, but isn't fully educated. Having

35:59

a tool like Trello routes. Now we'll tell them

36:01

the special regulations of every stream, including

36:04

the likes of Michigan and. That was actually

36:06

a very complex thing. We just did a about

36:08

a month ago. So that's really helpful, but I

36:10

think I'm stepping back a minute.

36:12

I think there's a lot of really complex

36:14

issues. Related to

36:16

how to responsibly use like mobile

36:19

apps and technology when it comes to fly fishing.

36:21

And so we're, obviously right in the middle of

36:23

it. And I think one, one one of the most

36:25

valid debates that we have been part of

36:27

is. Whether or not something like trout

36:29

routes leads to over pressure. And

36:32

I think that's a very, you. Meaningful conversation.

36:36

One approach that we've taken is

36:38

to really ensure that

36:40

every stream in a state that we cover

36:42

that can, or does have cold

36:45

water species, like trout is mapped.

36:47

And what that means is rather than mapping out the top

36:50

five streams in Michigan and having them all go

36:52

to the streams that we all know about. Our

36:54

approach to really every single

36:56

trout stream and every single public land parcel.

36:59

And our thought there is to really help spread. People

37:01

out, we think that's really, it's really

37:03

what we're seeing is people. And

37:06

finding these new waters and not

37:08

overpopulating, the places that we all know. And

37:10

we really do think that a tool like

37:12

trout routes will actually help overcrowding.

37:15

Especially considering it does not do anything

37:18

to the hotspotting issue, which is

37:20

where you broadly share a specific point

37:23

that is apparently good for fishing on social media

37:25

which we don't do. There's a lot of complex issues, but I think

37:27

we're doing a decent

37:30

slash pretty good job of. The

37:32

best, most responsible way to do it.

37:35

And then the last thing I would say is as we're going

37:37

through and growing our business, we think it's really

37:39

important to always give back to conservation

37:42

groups. So I'm part of the board of trout

37:44

unlimited in the twin cities. And

37:46

we contribute to the national charter limited

37:48

On an annual basis. And we also do

37:50

a lot of volunteering. And sponsorship

37:53

of local chapter meetings and

37:55

there's a. Cause even fishing tournament for youth

37:57

in Pennsylvania that we're doing in a few weeks. So

38:00

congrats. It sounds like a lot of fun

38:02

through. That's also how we

38:04

connected them as you are at the Midwest fly

38:06

fishing expo. So you are.

38:09

Your chart rounds and trout insights

38:11

are all over the place. I would say. Oh,

38:14

that's awesome. Yeah, exactly. You

38:17

did bring up. A good point about

38:19

how you guys are mapping the entire stream.

38:21

Because one thing that I

38:24

feel is very important. Being,

38:26

I used to live in Kalamazoo, which is right

38:28

there on the Kalamazoo river. I

38:30

used to do a lot of fishing right. In urban

38:33

areas. And that's one thing that

38:35

I feel like what's your out, it's still

38:37

shows people like you don't need

38:39

to, you have nature in your backyard.

38:43

You don't have to go to these places that are

38:45

far away. Yeah,

38:48

I think that's so in Michigan alone, I think there was,

38:50

I don't know, two on TV. 500

38:53

or something, more trout stream.

38:55

We just added a Utah this week, which was,

38:58

400 streams, which is actually pretty

39:00

light for most of our states. So I

39:02

think the main takeaway is that we really do try and make sure

39:04

that you, as an angler are aware of all

39:06

the trout streams around you. So you don't need to go

39:08

to the most crowded and popular places.

39:11

And so it is really about education on where

39:13

Trout's rooms are and how to publicly access them. Definitely.

39:17

And then if you had to pick,

39:19

so you don't have to name.

39:22

The exact stream, but if you had a region

39:24

or a location, as well as a

39:27

certain species, what would be

39:29

that place in fish?

39:33

Oh man. That's a tough one. The

39:35

Driftless is pretty near and dear to

39:37

me. And I think I'm okay saying

39:40

that. Cause it's pretty well known at this point, that area.

39:42

There's a few places out west.

39:45

That I would consider. Pretty

39:47

darn near and dear to me that I found.

39:50

So I would say, we'll just call it central

39:52

Rocky area. You can just say Colorado.

39:55

Where the. Quite a ways from Denver. I feel like

39:57

around Denver, he gets a little bit too crowded,

39:59

a little bit too crazy. The flag patient seen there

40:01

is a little bit intense. But I think the home waters

40:03

of the Driftless is pretty incredible, pretty under

40:05

appreciated. Yeah. As far as species,

40:08

I feel like I'm still scratching the surface with some

40:10

stuff. I think I just started and starting to get into cuts.

40:12

Cutthroats that's a really fun experience

40:14

because it typically takes you way up into the mountains

40:17

and in terms of. Exploration

40:19

and adventure, and those are those will definitely get you out

40:21

there. But yeah, I would say either Browns Brooks.

40:23

It's all pretty much good to me. Awesome.

40:27

So in terms of,

40:29

we're going to shift gears a little bit.

40:32

So you so you here

40:34

are more of a jazz hip

40:36

hop. Fan,

40:38

do you have at least a few songs

40:41

for us or a certain band or two

40:43

that we can add to the playlist when

40:45

we get that off? Jeez.

40:48

If we have to, I guess I

40:50

would say like Pete rock and seal

40:52

smooth are. It's a combo. I listen

40:54

to pretty often like the instrumentals. Nice.

40:58

I've been listening to

41:00

a lot of It's

41:02

like just whatever. Spotify

41:05

throws me, but lately it's been

41:07

a lot of like smooth guitar or like

41:10

smooth guitar, hip hop. So

41:12

I feel you there. Cool.

41:15

Yeah, there's a lot of good stuff out there. Yeah, a lot

41:18

of stuff is typically for me, like I like instrumentals

41:20

kinda like the jazzy hip hop type

41:23

combination has been my go-to really

41:25

for 10 years. It's going to good for, if you're in the zone,

41:27

if you're doing work or studying or reading.

41:29

Is that like what you listened to when

41:31

you pull up to, when you're like pulling up to

41:33

your parking spot to go fish, is that

41:35

what you're jamming to? Or do you have a Anthem

41:38

that you're like, I gotta blast this before I hit

41:40

the water. No,

41:43

I try and either have nothing

41:45

at all, or, just like really

41:47

casual, like relaxing. That

41:49

kind of the jazz hip hop stuff. But I

41:51

have a strict rule of no music when you're coming up.

41:53

Just because it's there's so many things in my

41:55

world these days that keep me busy in my head.

41:57

So when I'm out fishing and I do everything

42:00

I can to force myself to slow down. So

42:02

even like music in the background, even if it's chill,

42:04

reggae stuff, I still say no that's

42:06

your time to be quiet. To be listening

42:09

to be present, to be watching and just try to

42:11

be as relaxed as you can. So I try to

42:13

actually keep it quiet. I like that. So

42:15

you use even like your drive out to the water

42:17

is like your moment for clarity to

42:20

rinse the pallet or rinse the chalkboard.

42:23

A hundred percent. Nice.

42:25

Nice. There's days like

42:27

that for free, even, I

42:30

would say I'm a little less busy nowadays, but

42:32

sometimes you just, you want the

42:35

quiet ride over there, you don't need to be

42:37

blessed in anything. Yeah.

42:40

There's some days where you're, it's a big trip out west

42:42

and you've been waiting for it for three months and you're with some

42:44

friends, but generally speaking,

42:46

most of my trips are day trips

42:48

and they're a pretty

42:50

Few and far between these days. So I try and keep it

42:52

relaxing. Nice. Yeah.

42:55

Like we were talking, you just said

42:57

like on our last call, you were like, I'm so

42:59

busy. I've got all this stuff going on. I was like, how

43:02

does he even find time to fish? So

43:04

how do you find time to fish? That's

43:06

the saddest thing is I my background is

43:08

I came from engineering in a kind of

43:10

a corporate medical device world, and

43:12

I fished more. Then

43:14

than I do now that I run trout runs.

43:17

Full-time. A fly fishing company.

43:19

Full-time I fish last because it's just, as

43:21

a small business, a small growing business, you just,

43:23

there's so many things to do. And there's so many opportunities

43:26

to go after. And. It's, when

43:28

you talk to fly shop owners and even sometimes

43:30

guys, they say the same thing. As you pick your passion

43:32

for your work and all the sudden you don't have the passion anymore. I

43:34

mean you do, but you don't get time to get out. Hopefully that'll

43:37

change in the next year or two. Yeah,

43:39

amen to that. And starting, with

43:41

all the retreats and stuff, I can

43:43

completely empathize with

43:45

you because there's days where

43:47

it's I've got to set this up, I've got to do this and

43:49

that. And then before I know it, I'm like, I've talked

43:51

about fishing all day, but when did I get on the

43:54

water? Yeah. It's

43:56

such a, it's such a blessing to be able to have that as

43:58

your, as a, your day job to be able to do something

44:00

that's related to your passion, but it is

44:02

true that you gotta be careful with Time to actually

44:04

do like the fishing to getting out. Yeah.

44:07

Yeah. So when you do

44:09

get out, I know you said that trout

44:11

routes is like your number one item

44:14

you can't live without. Do you have anything that you

44:16

keep in your bag or something

44:18

that. You're just like, man,

44:20

this item. Yeah,

44:23

let's say I was to go out today,

44:26

which is a mid may

44:28

in the Driftless. I really

44:30

enjoy. I have a small seven

44:32

and a half foot three weight, which

44:34

is just a crazy fun ride. And

44:37

it's really fun to bring to that and like

44:40

a pocket full of Adams and like pretty

44:42

much that's it. Like really simple,

44:44

don't over complicate it and just go out

44:46

there and find something that. Even

44:48

if you're just casting for fun, but typically those atoms

44:51

will parachute out. It was pretty much matched, most

44:53

things that are going on out there so that the candidates

44:55

you can Twitch it. If it's if it's a mayfly, you can drift

44:57

it and. There's something to be said for

45:00

keeping things simple. So sometimes

45:02

I'll have waiters and like all kinds of different

45:04

weights and all kinds of different Tippett and

45:06

four different fly boxes. And

45:09

you get so overwhelmed with your options and your tools

45:11

that you don't, you. So you lose that present presence of

45:13

mind. My go-to and my only

45:16

thing would probably be that seven and a half foot, three

45:18

weight, and a couple of parachute Adams.

45:21

My, my two weights, my favorite

45:23

rad. I

45:25

have a nine foot, two weight and

45:27

people look at me like I'm insane. I'm

45:29

like, look at my little. It

45:31

looks like a little Willow branch. I'm like,

45:33

I love this thing. They're like, When

45:36

you touch on that You kept to branch. What

45:38

do you use that thing for? Cause like I

45:40

know so many people love bigger

45:43

rods, but there's something so fun

45:45

about that really lightweight equipment.

45:47

Cause it. It's just a straight shot

45:50

between you and the fish. Yeah.

45:52

And I think that the shorter rods are interesting

45:54

because like in the. Breathless, like some

45:57

of the streams get really small and a

45:59

lot of the traffic goes to the streams that have no.

46:01

The brush recover. And so sometimes

46:03

you'll just find these tiny little streams

46:05

that no one is fishing, but you

46:08

sneak up in the woods and you see these

46:10

rises and you have this little tiny seven. Foot

46:12

three weight. And he Slingshot a little

46:14

parachute in there and it's it's that is quite the experience.

46:17

Yeah. So it's very satisfying.

46:20

It's you can just crawl around and sneak

46:22

up on them. And that, that

46:24

I can completely agree with you. Zach is

46:26

some of the funnest stuff you can do. Yeah,

46:29

it'll keep you hooked for several years for

46:31

sure. That

46:34

is all the questions and

46:36

what we are going to cover for today

46:39

Is there any way that our

46:41

audience can reach out to

46:43

you or find you to learn

46:45

more about The app because We

46:48

covered so many wonderful things about

46:50

the application i want to make sure that people

46:52

know where to find you and know how to find the app

46:54

and get started with it since i

46:57

found it extremely valuable so

46:59

i know others could as well

47:03

Yeah one thing I think That's cool about us is we're

47:05

a really small local midwest company you can

47:07

always email me literally directly at

47:09

Z pope At trout insights.com

47:12

and we also have kind of a main social

47:15

instagram page called trout routes So

47:18

pretty easy to get ahold of us I Pretty much work all day

47:20

all night most people that email me get a response

47:22

in five minutes so i'm always

47:24

love hearing from anglers in the field Definitely

47:27

i knew you were even saying you're like

47:29

customer service like you

47:31

had customer service stories for us

47:34

Yeah i'm currently doing this podcast in

47:36

a dark garage so when i

47:38

say small company it's just me And

47:42

She's on video he's hanging out in his garage

47:44

so it is a small

47:46

company that i know that you

47:48

have been pounding the pavement

47:50

from all of your stories too, to really

47:52

get this out there so we hardcore

47:55

trout anglers that like to go crawl around in the woods

47:58

thank you Of

48:00

course yeah i look forward to hearing

48:02

from other anglers and thanks so much Once

48:05

again, thank you to Zach Pope.

48:08

From trout insights,

48:10

the creator. Of

48:12

trout routes. If you haven't

48:15

had a chance. To

48:17

check out the app, please go do so.

48:20

It is a fantastic resource

48:22

and tool to have in your back pocket.

48:24

Is you're out there exploring the summer.

48:27

I hope you have a great time

48:29

on the water. And

48:31

as always stay fly,

48:33

curious. Loop to loop

48:35

is a mindful trout production

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