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state law. In.

1:19

The Nineteen seventies A Psychology P.

1:21

H D Fresh out of grad

1:23

school decided to take on one

1:25

of the biggest names in linguistics.

1:28

Noam. Chomsky. Her. Name

1:30

was Elizabeth Beats and over

1:32

the decades she would become

1:34

one of the most vocal

1:36

opponents of nativism which was.

1:38

Chomsky is widely supported theory

1:40

of language and the debate

1:42

that followed would change how

1:45

many of us think about

1:47

language and our brains. Sami.

1:50

Abu Seed brings us this story.

1:53

In. Nineteen Seventy two a group of

1:55

linguists with hunkered down at a seaside

1:57

villa in Croatia. They'd.

2:00

Together to hash out some ideas

2:02

about how we humans acquire language.

2:06

One day while the group was in

2:08

the middle of their morning research thus

2:10

and attend young woman walked up the

2:12

beach to the villa carrying a backpack

2:14

and a sleeping bag. She

2:16

introduced herself as List Space and told

2:18

the astonished researchers that See was there

2:21

to join them. List Space was a

2:23

grad student studying human development at the

2:25

University of Chicago. She'd heard that this

2:27

group would be convening and she'd already

2:30

planned a summer trip to Italy, so

2:32

she thought, why not hop across the

2:34

Adriatic Sea and drop in on them?

2:36

She wouldn't be any trouble with a

2:39

sword. The group adding that suit to

2:41

sleep on the terrorists and her sleeping

2:43

bag. Little did they

2:45

know see was about to cause some

2:48

trouble, at least for linguists and psychologists

2:50

by upsetting the apple cart on one

2:52

of their most well regarded theories. Or.

2:55

At least trying her very best to.

3:00

This is his last women of

3:02

science: I'm Kate Hafner, and today

3:05

I'm joined by Sammy, a disease

3:07

who brings us to story of

3:09

Elizabeth. He.

3:12

Sameer cited he says to the

3:14

were talking about Elizabeth Beats and

3:17

by the way that story which

3:19

of course I had never heard

3:21

his crit Amazing. So just to

3:23

recap this is lives in the

3:25

early Nineteen seventies. She's this audacious

3:27

grad student caressing this meeting in

3:29

Croatia says sleep on the porch

3:31

and my sleeping bag So what

3:34

happened next? So she least Greece

3:36

or behind peds us to Italy

3:38

as planned. And then in Nineteen

3:40

Seventy six she publishes a book.

3:42

Says twenty nine years old. She's

3:45

just gotten her Phd and this

3:47

is her first book. It's all

3:49

about how children learn language and

3:51

the reception was mix to say

3:53

the least. Summers use are positive,

3:55

some not so much. One critic

3:57

said she had a week. The

4:00

theory and that she made sloppy

4:02

category mistakes either because of laziness

4:04

or an inability to write clearly

4:07

are just some basic misunderstanding. a

4:09

while that is horse. Yes, And.

4:12

Look, it is totally possible that the

4:14

book really wasn't perfect. I mean this

4:16

is her first book but it's also

4:18

possible that the book to spread some

4:21

people the wrong way because lizard arguing

4:23

that are basic language abilities are not

4:25

in a and that was controversial at

4:28

that time. Linguists widely believed that humans

4:30

are hard wired for language and that

4:32

were born with specific language skills that

4:34

are encoded in their teens. It all

4:37

started with Noam Chomsky. In a certain

4:39

sense, I think we might even go on say that languages

4:41

even learned. At least as by learning we've

4:43

been. Any process that has

4:45

those characteristics that are generally associated with

4:47

worth. This is an interview he

4:50

did on a Bbc show called Men of

4:52

Ideas in Nineteen Seventy Eight. And

4:54

some ski we should point out was

4:56

the man of ideas. Yeah, he was

4:58

a total superstar. I mean today a

5:00

lot of people and know Noam Chomsky

5:02

as a political activists, but he's also

5:05

one of the biggest names in linguistics.

5:07

And in the nineteen fifties, he revolutionized

5:09

the way we think about language. Before

5:12

he came along, most linguists thought of

5:15

language as a type of behavior that

5:17

you learned, not something that's genetically hardwired.

5:19

So the idea was that children learn

5:21

to speak by mimicking the people around

5:23

them and through the feedback they get

5:26

as they practice speaking. But

5:28

that's just didn't sit right with Penske.

5:30

He recognized that speaking a language involves

5:33

a lot more than just parroting things.

5:35

like when people speak, they don't just

5:37

pull from a bank of phrases, they're

5:39

putting words together in entirely new ways.

5:43

I. Guess that I mean so it's a

5:45

you can learn to say dog and

5:47

you can learn to say potato. But

5:49

how do you learn to say hey,

5:51

look at that potato shaped dog with

5:54

the tube or snout and what? Yes,

5:56

please. Sit Exactly. And Chelsea also pointed

5:58

out that every child with normal cognitive

6:00

a bill these naturally develops language without

6:02

any kind of instructions and they do

6:04

it quickly. So he took that to

6:06

mean that humans have a language instincts.

6:09

In other words, we don't really learn

6:11

language. Or. It's his weekly moderate. a

6:13

reasonable metaphor. We should talk about growth.

6:16

Of. Language seems to me to. Grow.

6:18

In the mind. Rather in the

6:20

way that familiar physical systems of the

6:22

body grow. What does he

6:24

mean by that? People obviously do

6:27

learn languages, right? You weren't born

6:29

speaking English, you had to learn

6:31

at. And yes, sweetest kids have

6:33

to learn sweetest words and Brazilian

6:35

kids have to learn Portuguese ones.

6:38

Society wasn't denying all that, but

6:40

he proposed that the basic circuitry

6:42

our brains used for language is

6:44

a neat, and that thanks to

6:46

the circuitry, there's some universal features

6:49

that underlie every language. This is

6:51

what he called universal grammar. See

6:53

you. Have this and need language

6:55

ability. But you also learn language

6:58

so how would that work? So.

7:00

The theory has evolved a lot over the

7:03

decades, but there's a Switch Bucks analogy that

7:05

I sound funny, useful as a way of

7:07

wrapping my head around the premise, and I

7:09

should be clear, it doesn't reflect how nativists

7:11

think about the brain today, but it was

7:14

popular back in the eighties when list as

7:16

deep in this debate and I think it's

7:18

a useful way of grasping how something like

7:20

this could work. Imagine

7:23

you have this sort of language missy

7:25

and in your brain and then there

7:27

a set of switches that that flicked

7:29

on or off depending on the specific

7:31

language you're learning. So if you're learning

7:34

French your flick on a switch that

7:36

means all nouns have to have had

7:38

sender. And if you're learning English you'll

7:40

turn us which us by whether you

7:42

speak French or English or a slant

7:44

acre Cantonese if you pull back all

7:46

the layers the basic machinery as the

7:49

same. At least

7:51

as a chance he believed again. The

7:53

series evolved since then, and people aren't

7:55

talking about switchbacks as anymore, but that

7:57

idea that there's this part that's funny.

8:00

And. Then these parameters that change depending

8:02

on what language you're learning, that still

8:04

holds. So that's the basic idea, and

8:06

one of the things that Chomsky and

8:09

other nativist has historically pointed to as

8:11

evidence is the fact that humans are

8:13

the only animals that have what they

8:15

consider to be language. So as far

8:17

as they're concerned, there must be something

8:20

in me in us that makes it

8:22

was possible. So. He thinks

8:24

animals don't have language. a

8:26

mean. My dog, Newman. He

8:28

has language. He understands many

8:30

things. His

8:32

best friend, Carmelo I see Carmelo any

8:35

runs to the door to look for

8:37

Carmela. That's language. Of

8:39

our energy me invite that. No, Actually a

8:42

lot of people don't think that were animals

8:44

have really counts as language, so this is

8:46

a very big an old debate. Were definitely

8:49

not going to settle it today, but I

8:51

think what we can say for sir is

8:53

that animals don't seem to be able to

8:55

fully grasped the kind of language we humans

8:58

have, because if you think about it, no

9:00

one has ever been able to teach. And

9:02

other species to use language that

9:05

we did. And for the record,

9:07

psychologists have absolutely. Tried for was

9:09

a. Kid.

9:12

He did. You catch that sound at the end? Sounded

9:15

like a whisper. Hang on, let me play it

9:18

again. As

9:21

a little hard to hear but that was

9:23

a chimp named Vicky saying the word. She's

9:26

also wearing address. But the point

9:28

is, even though animals like Vicky

9:30

learned some words by the nineteen

9:32

seventies, animals are not talking. Language

9:34

is seen by most people as

9:36

a uniquely human thing. And the

9:38

question is this guy For Chomsky?

9:40

the answer was because we have

9:42

all of that way. His theory

9:45

was broadly known as nativism, and

9:47

it was really. Popular everybody learns

9:49

osceola in graduate school I'm or

9:51

Chomsky and it had a certain

9:53

intuitive appeal to their their these

9:55

universal features of language. Mike.

9:57

Thomas Cielo is a professor of Psychology.

10:00

In neuroscience at Duke who worked with

10:02

less space for many years. When

10:04

he was doing his Phd in the

10:06

nineteen seventies, Chomsky, his ideas were kings,

10:08

and it didn't hurt that Chomsky himself

10:10

was sort of a superstar in other

10:13

ways. Chomsky. Was the one

10:15

faculty professor in America who really stood

10:17

up against the war in Vietnam. So.

10:20

He was a hero to people. Regardless

10:23

of the linguistics. His. Reputation

10:25

helped elevate his ideas and

10:27

those ideas stuck by the

10:29

early nineteen seventies. Chomsky theory

10:31

that languages and Eight was

10:34

widely accepted, but Elizabeth Bates

10:36

was an It. Loose.

10:39

Came to linguistics through psychology as

10:42

a Phd student at the University

10:44

of Chicago. Seats studied human development

10:46

in particular have southern develop language

10:49

and she wasn't satisfied with just

10:51

his theory. She had trouble accepting

10:53

the idea that our ability to

10:55

use language with says. They're.

10:58

Free programs. They

11:03

started out by studying young children

11:05

when she was in grad school,

11:07

observing how they interacted with their

11:09

environment and learned language and would

11:11

see saw in her own research

11:13

and in her colleagues research didn't

11:15

seem to match Chomsky theory. Interesting.

11:19

So the way kids learn language

11:21

can tell you whether it's in

11:23

a. Debatable. But

11:26

some psychologists would argue that it

11:28

at least gives you some really

11:30

important clues. Said it give you

11:32

an idea what I'm talking about.

11:34

Lives and her colleagues studied kids

11:36

who are raised in different language

11:38

environments like Italian and English and

11:41

sentiments and to notice them and

11:43

seeing differences. symptoms. Here's an example

11:45

from one of loses old grad

11:47

students. His name is Fred

11:49

Deck and he's now a professor of

11:51

cognitive neuroscience at University College London. So.

11:53

In English the order of words

11:56

is really important. so it as

11:58

the dog comes before by. He

12:00

is very likely to be during the

12:02

biting. By word order is

12:05

more flexible. In a language like

12:07

Italian, you can rearrange some words

12:09

without changing the meaning. So English

12:11

speaking kids tend to master word

12:14

order before Italian kids do because

12:16

they need to. Isn't it seem

12:18

like in each language, the timing

12:21

of when kids master these grammatical

12:23

concepts depended on how crucial it

12:25

was for their particular language and

12:27

to lives that suggested that kids

12:30

weren't just clicking on a sweats

12:32

and activating some. Pre programmed ability.

12:34

Instead, they seem to the building

12:37

out a new ability as they

12:39

interacted with their environment or the

12:41

people around them. right like dirt,

12:43

Custom building their language skills. As

12:46

the girl, I can see that

12:48

I speak German and the structure

12:50

is so different from English. it's

12:52

hard to wrap my head around

12:55

the idea that there's one universal

12:57

language framework. Underneath all

12:59

these. Very. Different languages, Isn't

13:02

yeah and I will say need

13:04

of us have worked really hard

13:07

to explain what unifies every language

13:09

out there, but for lives? Seeing

13:11

how kids can build different languages

13:14

from the ground up to seem

13:16

like more evidence against universal grammar.

13:19

She actually talked about this a little bit in

13:21

this educational video we found from two thousand and

13:23

one. The more

13:26

we learn. About human languages, the

13:28

more diversity we see. To give you

13:30

two examples that offices extremes. If you

13:32

have a language like Chinese, They're

13:34

absolutely no endings on words of the sort

13:37

were used to an English like dogs. Dogs

13:39

walk Walked. Out

13:41

the way you would say the equivalent of

13:43

i already. Ate dinner in Chinese

13:45

would be something that loosely translated

13:48

blessed, Eat. Centers and on the

13:50

opposite. and you have languages like Greenlandic

13:52

in you at where you have a

13:54

sentence that could be one word was

13:56

seventeen and selections are presses, suffixes and

13:59

they rip up. The word

14:01

in the middle and stick stuff in

14:03

the middle to indexes. so you have

14:05

this extraordinary extreme. from this very, very

14:07

analytic and and austere system to this

14:10

very synthetic and stuffing as much as

14:12

you can, on to the word system

14:14

and human babies have to come into

14:16

the world prepared to learn innocence. By.

14:21

The Way: that wasn't to say that there

14:23

was nothing special about our human brains and

14:25

lives said as much in an interview on

14:27

Npr in Nineteen Ninety Nine. Of

14:29

loses his language in a hurry.

14:32

Born with reigns hardwired to learn

14:34

language. There's. Gotta be a reason

14:36

why human beings are the only brains

14:38

on the planet require language. Your dog

14:40

doesn't require language. Good dog brain. Okay,

14:42

so losers in the camp that other

14:44

animals do not have language later said

14:46

we're going to steer clear of that

14:49

whole debate today and just acknowledged for

14:51

now that at least know dog has

14:53

mastered Japanese like a human as my

14:55

dog has. Or yes, just champs. But

14:58

thought The question is, what is it about

15:00

that brain that makes it the only one

15:02

on the planet? Think the claire language are.

15:04

The easiest answer which is also probably

15:06

wrong, is is because we have a

15:09

language organ that no other species has.

15:11

So means yeah. Definitely a dig

15:13

at Chomsky. Their that used to

15:15

think eighty it's loses rate than

15:17

that. Leaves us with a puzzle

15:19

rate because if human brains are

15:22

the only ones capable as at

15:24

least human style and quit but

15:26

we don't have a unique language

15:28

or again then what is it.

15:31

What? Gives us the ability to speak

15:33

well as sometimes I use the. Analogy: the

15:35

giraffe neck in or if you. Look

15:37

at the dress market. Very striking. It's clearly

15:39

adapted for reaching up there in the trees

15:42

and they get the they're the only one

15:44

second up there and get those leaves rights.

15:46

But it's not a special organ in the

15:48

sense that it's something new that no other

15:51

species has. It has the same number bones

15:53

your neck as in other words draft don't

15:55

have especially evolved totally unique reaching or again

15:57

they haven't Next, just a much longer one.

16:00

And in the same way, if there

16:02

was something special about the human brain

16:04

list that maybe it was just that

16:07

it was so big it didn't have

16:09

to have especially evolved language circuit. Maybe

16:11

it's just had a lot more circuitry

16:13

than other animals so it could learn

16:15

much more complicated kinds of communication. Here's.

16:19

Frederich again. Bases whole

16:21

approach from the beginning of

16:23

her career was really to

16:25

think of language as being

16:27

the product of our interaction

16:29

with world and of many

16:31

small tweaks over evolution that

16:33

we're not specific to language

16:35

or but the really helped

16:37

language along. By it in

16:39

the Nineteen seventies, Blizzard conclusions pitted

16:41

her directly against Chomsky and most

16:44

other linguists at that time. And

16:46

going against the grain like that:

16:48

Meet people, nervous lizards close collaborator

16:50

brain Mic when he remembers how

16:53

people reacted during one presentation, he

16:55

dead with lives in Paris. Richest.

16:57

Would have nothing other because it was a chance to.

17:00

Add so no one would defend us what everyone

17:02

says wrong but then in the back after was

17:04

a sibling you know was kind of agree but

17:07

was didn't want to say it. In

17:09

some ways list is protected from all

17:11

this. My com a seller told me

17:13

that psychologists working in psychology department's like

17:16

him and lives were under less pressure

17:18

to conform to debate back then was

17:20

mostly playing out among linguists, but he

17:22

said that people working in linguistics departments

17:24

really had a lot to lose. Their.

17:27

Jobs, words thing, or even as they had

17:29

an established job and a linguistics department, their

17:31

students weren't going to get jobs if they

17:33

win against the grain too much. But.

17:36

As far as this is concerned,

17:38

heard dated Cs didn't support native

17:40

Isn't and she wasn't the only

17:42

one having her doubts. Brian Mic

17:44

any and My Chemists hello were

17:46

some of her early supporters, and

17:48

little by little a group of

17:50

researchers started to coalesce around this

17:52

theory, which became known as Connection

17:54

Sm or Emergence of Them. Immersion

17:57

to them as actually a concept that extends

17:59

way beyond. Dec. Very generally speaking,

18:01

it's the idea that simple interactions

18:04

can give rise to complex systems

18:06

and those complex systems are much

18:08

more than just a some of

18:10

their parts which I know sounds

18:13

really abstract but this kind of

18:15

thing emerson phenomena are actually really

18:17

com and all over the universe.

18:20

So if you think about a

18:22

beehive, there's no architects be with

18:25

a whole bee hives blueprint and

18:27

it's brain. But as these interact

18:29

with each other at the beehive,

18:31

structure just naturally emerges. So along

18:34

the same lines, lives and other

18:36

emerge tests believe that there was

18:38

no blueprint for language in our

18:40

genes, but that language emerges as

18:43

simpler mechanisms in the brain interact

18:45

with the environment. But

18:48

not everyone was convinced. Actually,

18:50

most people weren't And this

18:52

wasn't just any old academic

18:54

question, it was one people

18:56

felt really strongly that and

18:58

will listen sir way. I

19:01

mean, I think it's assassinating question, but

19:03

I didn't quite get why it was.

19:05

so she did. And so personal. Why

19:09

people were afraid to speak up or

19:11

admit what they really saw it and

19:13

I'm still not positive, but in talking

19:15

to people, there was one team that

19:17

came up a few times. I.

19:20

Think a lot of people intuitively

19:22

believe that the thing that distinguishes

19:24

humans most clearly from other creatures,

19:27

his language. I think there

19:29

is an element of feeling like

19:31

humans are special and this is

19:33

or most special specialists his language.

19:36

And so I think there's a

19:38

kind of level of commitment to

19:40

this radical debates that gets a

19:42

little religious at times. It's

19:45

kinda like if our language abilities aren't

19:47

written into our genes are hardwired into

19:50

our brains, then what's the to suffer

19:52

from other animals, you know? That

19:55

makes us human. For

19:59

lose having and. Me language instinct

20:01

was in it. And. So

20:03

far we've heard a lot from her side of the debate.

20:05

But. After the break will hear from the other

20:07

side. And. The view is pretty

20:10

different. Hi

20:12

I'm Katie Hausner Codes I could

20:14

have producer of Last Women of

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science.org. A

21:01

kiss him yet? So before the break we've

21:03

learned, sit there were. Two chance

21:05

nativist sleep to ski

21:07

in a smaller group

21:09

is emergencies weakness in

21:11

this to be due

21:14

to get surprisingly in.

21:17

He. Guess it did. and it worked. out

21:19

of basically east coast vs. west coast.

21:21

so Chomsky was at Mit and nativists

21:23

kind of coalesce. There were. While this

21:26

is on the west coast at you

21:28

see San Diego which has a home

21:30

base of the emerging tests and the

21:32

two sides when at it. Fred

21:34

Dick was there for some of those years. Through.

21:36

Are not very nice. The

21:39

attacks were not just kind of

21:41

intellectual, quite demeaning at times and

21:43

are there was a bit of

21:45

a pylon mentality I think. Oh,

21:48

this is something I really wanted to

21:50

understand. More to that spoken to a

21:53

number of lists, his colleagues and friends

21:55

and in a killer to suppress and

21:57

that she was this tireless scientists. The

22:00

was on a quest to figure out the

22:02

truth, but obviously there was a whole other

22:04

side to the story. The

22:06

Nativists and based on everything I

22:08

was hearing, there is no doubt

22:10

to me that they saw things

22:12

pretty differently so wanted to know

22:15

what they thought of all of

22:17

this and of lips. A

22:20

room the so that who were the other people are

22:22

we? We know that. Some ski? Yeah! so a

22:24

big minutes to get a hold of Noam

22:26

Chomsky. Although I did. Reach out to him

22:28

and he is record ninety five years

22:30

old as I understand it and still

22:32

going strong. But the I A so

22:34

that's fine. He has better things to

22:37

do than answer my emails, but I

22:39

actually did get a hold of one

22:41

of the key players from the other

22:43

side, Steven Pinker. Oh Steven Pinker. I've

22:45

met him. Nice guy yet. And for

22:47

anyone who doesn't know him, Steven Pinker

22:49

is a cognitive psychologist at Harvard and

22:52

he's written a ton of popular books

22:54

about language and how the mind works

22:56

and human nature. And

22:58

I knew that he'd been around when

23:00

these debates we're going on, so I

23:02

thought that he'd have an interesting perspective.

23:04

As so, We emailed him and he

23:06

wrote back right away and agreed to

23:08

talk to me about Liz. But enough.

23:10

First email he was kinda like, wait

23:12

a second lists Bates last Woman of

23:14

Science Everyone. Knew buggers base if we're

23:16

kind of a pig always beats she was

23:18

hire a polarizing. And.

23:20

Compared to her supporters less to say,

23:23

Steven Pinker had a pretty different experience

23:25

of less. I think. That she had.

23:27

I. Had. Probably Smith school

23:29

suing smoke be other factors he's

23:31

were respected. the other he swore

23:33

new facts important of the other

23:35

one. Press their case by the

23:37

probably to do the like. it's

23:39

over that much of a with

23:41

the same time with some mixed

23:43

with some complex situation comedy or

23:45

kind of a barbs and effects

23:48

and sparring respects. In other

23:50

words, we were these put on for

23:52

of said torment the other. Says

23:54

he mentioned, these debates got passionate, But

23:56

as far as Steven Pinker could tell,

23:59

Elizabeth Bates could. Around there were

24:01

a number of people him as

24:03

a general sounds good universe who

24:05

are other police and dogmatic and

24:08

she could out believe boys. Are

24:11

hurt, Science was war and the

24:13

object was to discredit, humiliate, obliterate

24:15

your opponent's now either I sat

24:18

with some costs him because I

24:20

know that there is was a

24:22

tendency to forgive that in men

24:25

and to use it as a

24:27

criticism of of women. but I

24:30

think anyone who knew her with

24:32

quincy to see his shoes. See

24:35

yourself in the Seers as of men.

24:38

He. Doesn't mince words when it

24:40

comes to this now that I think

24:42

it really reflects d intensity of what

24:44

was going on back then and that

24:47

away. This went on for decades. On

24:50

the one side, the nativists went budging. There.

24:52

Were like you just can't explain the

24:54

uniqueness and complexity of language without some

24:57

and neat sensor. And if you look

24:59

at the human brain there are certain

25:01

areas that are usually dedicated to language.

25:03

Let the left hand. Painted. If

25:06

you have a stroke that damage is

25:08

that party or brain. Chances i you're

25:11

gonna have trouble understanding people and they

25:13

speak to you and let's didn't deny

25:15

any of that under normal conditions in

25:17

the absence of reasons that sympathetic and

25:19

and domain general there is a teacher

25:21

friends her it wins the contract for

25:24

languages. The is. That

25:26

list talking about this during a lecture

25:28

around the Nineteen Nineties. That.

25:30

She'd also been studying kids as

25:32

brain injuries herself as she saw

25:34

the kids could have really severe

25:37

damage to the so called language

25:39

reason of their brain and he

25:41

could still talk with holes in

25:43

their. Heads that to put her

25:45

sister is exactly where the least of

25:48

his call the face of the dogs

25:50

inside. That's

25:52

pretty incredible. It's it's hard

25:54

to imagine. Yeah. And

25:56

friend Deck told me the story that

25:58

less told him about something that happened

26:01

at one of her talks. Apparently a

26:03

girl who was missing most of the

26:05

left hemisphere of her brain showed up

26:08

at this talk and asked a perfectly

26:10

coherent question. and the emergence has felt

26:12

like that. Pretty much settled. things like

26:15

there couldn't be a specific period of

26:17

the brain hard wired for language. Is

26:20

language still existed even without that part

26:22

of the brain? But. Let me

26:24

guess that was not the end of things

26:26

a. Need Assists. Obviously, nativists

26:28

recognize the sometimes the brain kind

26:30

of reorganized itself, but as far

26:32

as they were concerned, that didn't

26:35

really contradict the core idea that

26:37

language mechanisms were sums of money.

26:40

So. Where does doesn't? It

26:43

didn't So each side to stagger heels

26:45

and and eventually some of them felt

26:48

like they weren't even having and debate

26:50

anymore. They were just talking past each

26:52

other like a presidential debate. Yeah exactly.

26:55

So what was this? Like friends leaders

26:57

said, it sounds like Telenor yeah, but

26:59

you know it as intense as that

27:01

to date was, Everyone I talk to

27:04

made it absolutely clear that list love

27:06

to see dead, I mean work with

27:08

her whole life And not because it

27:10

was some chores something, it was just

27:13

because. She couldn't get enough of it.

27:15

And this wasn't just when she was

27:17

a young, recent grad trainer hustle her

27:19

way into the field or anything. This

27:21

went on for her whole career. In

27:23

Nineteen Eighty One, she got married to

27:25

a physicist named George. kind of Ali.

27:28

And in Nineteen Eighty Three they had

27:30

a daughter Juliet and true to form

27:32

live had Julia visiting the lab before

27:34

she was even a year olds. Cases

27:37

Juliet have one. Wrestles

27:39

of Favorite Toys assists show off.

27:41

Oh I love that! So what were

27:43

they doing with Julia in the last

27:45

out that him? They're just there for

27:47

fun. But listen, George actually did make

27:50

a little study at of Juliet. They

27:52

took this incredible written record of Julius

27:54

development cause Julia notes and they just

27:56

wrote down things that they noticed about

27:58

her while she was a beep. The

28:00

like, while. Mostly. Pretty ordinary

28:02

things, but some of them are kind of

28:04

hilarious here. I'll read you one of them.

28:08

Less. Wrote my first impression other

28:10

than amazement at her alertness with

28:12

amazement at her incompetence. Oh

28:15

man, I'm trying to think what would have been

28:17

lied to have. The. Way as

28:19

as a mother. But in any event,

28:21

I'd say high standards. Yes, physicists. So

28:23

this is their life In the Nineteen

28:26

eighties and nineties, Blaze and George were

28:28

both busy academics, but judging from what

28:30

everyone told me, they also had really

28:33

full socialize. At this point they had

28:35

homes and both San Diego and Rome

28:37

that was were listed a lot of

28:40

her Trump linguistic research comparing English and

28:42

Italian speaking kids. But no matter where

28:44

they were in, their home was always

28:47

just full of people. As his

28:49

colleagues, her friends I mean her colleagues

28:51

were her friends and it just it

28:53

sounds like see really true people in.

28:57

High. But here's the real question. Did.

29:00

She manage to change people's

29:02

minds about Nativism. Will.

29:04

See did gain some traction because

29:06

emergence hasn't started out as this

29:08

really pretty unpopular theory, and eventually

29:11

it became a well established alternative

29:13

to nativism. But See never really

29:15

won the debate. It's actually still

29:17

not settled. But

29:20

that's okay. this intellectual academic debate.

29:22

This is really just one piece

29:24

of her career. She. Was doing

29:26

work the had a lot of real

29:28

tangible impact to like. She was coming

29:30

up with techniques for measuring children's language

29:33

skills and I had a real impact

29:35

because it made it easier to spot

29:37

possible language disorders early on. And.

29:39

One of her biggest discoveries was

29:41

showing just how plastic the brain

29:43

as when it comes to language.

29:45

How young children can recover from

29:47

really serious brain injuries and go

29:49

on to speak as well as

29:52

anyone else like that. Tell with

29:54

the hole in her head. Yeah,

29:56

exactly. So loses work Really reached

29:58

pretty far and wide. People

30:01

to look past their own narrow

30:03

fields. Would I moved

30:05

about her was that she had this a

30:07

little bit of a revolutionary street. always willing

30:10

to think about the bigger picture in what

30:12

it means for the bigger picture. Lives.

30:14

Didn't think that you could understand

30:17

the brain just by studying the

30:19

brain. She was absolutely interested in

30:21

how our brains are wired, but

30:23

she was also interested in context

30:26

and the way things changed over

30:28

time, whether that was over a

30:30

lifetime or over our evolutionary history.

30:32

She was interested in how every

30:35

from of knowledge and experience we

30:37

game summer environments literally changes us

30:39

by reshaping our brains. She

30:42

always had this dynamic historical,

30:44

evolutionary, developmental perspective in a

30:46

big ideas theoretical person and

30:48

that's what made her some

30:50

interesting. So.

30:54

Where's know of this lead to for

30:56

her? Well. It.

30:58

All ended much sooner than lives would have

31:00

liked. While she was in Italy in two

31:02

thousand and two, she was diagnosed with pancreatic

31:04

cancer and she was told she only had

31:07

months less to lives. but there was so

31:09

much she still wanted to do so. Even

31:11

then, she didn't stop working and you know

31:13

her family knew how much she loved her

31:15

work. but even for them, this is a

31:17

little bit shocking. I talk to her daughter

31:19

Julia kind of alley and she told me

31:22

a little bit about it. Julia.

31:24

Was a teenager back then. When she

31:26

was sick at the ends. And. Member

31:28

you know. My dad night and I thought maybe

31:30

you'd wanna. L A is

31:32

something else. Travel analysis Jesus's.

31:35

Nope. I'm going to my lap. You.

31:37

Know what she says brings familiar to

31:39

me. Sit staring. several women with profiles

31:41

grew this has happened, They get sick

31:43

and they're like no are gonna keep

31:46

working to the end just gotta keep

31:48

going as is. This just

31:50

run out of time. That was

31:52

one thing Julia said that she just wanted to

31:54

squeeze out every little job the suckered out of

31:57

her life and her career As A. even when

31:59

she couldn't be in her lab herself, she still

32:01

found a way to keep doing her work. Frederich.

32:05

Was one of the people working with her back then? When.

32:07

She was sick with pancreatic cancer

32:09

her last year I would go

32:11

and visit her in the chemo

32:13

sweet as she was getting chemo

32:15

and we would write papers. He

32:18

was just given by the sheer excitement as discovery

32:20

and it was just so pure. And I think

32:23

you know. She

32:25

had a lot of friends yet allegedly scientific

32:27

enemies as my memory like a lot of

32:29

sink they have made the read the people

32:31

around Legacy just so passionate agency that rated

32:33

people get in a corner than answer she

32:35

did to buy down. And you

32:37

remember to thank. You know this woman

32:39

Lily has month and you know and

32:42

that that everly sit as it continues

32:44

to send out to me. After.

32:49

Scrambling to do all this work in

32:51

April, two thousand and three and the

32:54

last month of her life lives and

32:56

her colleagues debuted a brand new neuro

32:58

imaging technique and then in December of

33:00

that same year she died. Boys.

33:03

She really did not waste a second of

33:05

her life. So. What were things

33:07

like after she was gone? Well.

33:10

The debate didn't disappear. anything like that.

33:13

Plenty. Of people still challenge chance. She's

33:15

idea of a language instinct, but from

33:17

what I gather, that kind of sparring

33:19

that was happening in the seventies and

33:21

eighties. That happening. so that's not going

33:23

on anymore. but that fundamental question of

33:26

how we acquire language that's still there

33:28

and send a little more interesting. Recently

33:30

ever since large language metal site touchy

33:32

Be T came into the picture night

33:34

so would have a link to sneak

33:36

as as. Well, some

33:39

see it as evidence in favor

33:41

of emergences. I'm here. spread deck.

33:43

the advent. Of deep learning ends

33:45

the advantage attribute he has shown

33:47

that indeed, if you just do

33:49

a machine or not information and

33:51

not give it a sort of

33:54

special purpose language learning device, you

33:56

can actually pick up the structure

33:58

of language and used productively. It.

34:00

Is because Khatibi. He doesn't have

34:02

any built and rules telling it

34:04

how to conjugate verbs are order

34:06

sentences. It doesn't have any kind

34:08

of programming dictating how languages should

34:10

be structured, but it's still learn

34:12

how to use Grammer properly, which

34:15

suggests that you don't necessarily need

34:17

any pre existing structure to learn

34:19

a language, but Steven Pinker. It

34:21

doesn't think that that's entirely relevant

34:23

to the question of how humans

34:25

got language you're on. One hand,

34:27

I often said if hundred miles

34:29

could actually speak the way I

34:31

have gone a few and can

34:33

speak, making fine grammatical distinctions, understanding

34:36

completely novel contents send a reward.

34:38

See that bottles of any particular

34:40

preprogramming for language could be a

34:42

model of what the child as

34:44

a ghost and we do have

34:47

to take into account that them

34:49

reason these models do so wellesley

34:51

been trained on the entire world

34:53

Wide web. I have it would

34:56

take thirty. Thousand years. In

34:58

other words, this shows. It's possible to

35:01

learn language without a special language box

35:03

in the brain spit. Steven. Pinker

35:05

isn't convinced that this is actually how

35:07

humans do it, And so the debate

35:10

goes. Eyes, So. All

35:12

of this makes me think, I mean

35:14

we. We look at a lot of

35:16

women who did something amazing, discovered something,

35:19

invented something, And. Yet. A

35:21

list of his beats me she spent. Much

35:24

of her life. For. Hitting a

35:26

site she didn't win. Some.

35:29

What is that implies

35:31

about her? her legacy.

35:33

Well. I think that even though this

35:35

debate kicked us lose his career and

35:37

motivated so much of her research, it's

35:40

not by any means her only scientific

35:42

legacy. Lizards of work seated all sorts

35:44

of new research in all the field

35:46

she worked, and she trained so many

35:48

grad students who are still carrying on

35:50

the work as she started. I

35:54

think what's sort of striking is

35:56

that this away heard from some

35:58

of her former colleague. Given

36:00

all that given the fact that her

36:02

impact is being self and all these

36:04

fields lives herself is not as well

36:07

known anymore as you might expect. Virginia

36:09

Altera was was his colleague and one of

36:11

her closest friends. From room and here's has

36:14

he sees it. Funny.

36:17

Today she was very very well

36:19

known that when she gave it

36:21

to Perth the she had the

36:23

hundred of people. Tommy Anger.

36:27

And now it seems

36:29

that she is almost

36:32

not completely but disappearing.

36:36

And. Why do you think that he

36:38

says? Well, some of her colleagues had

36:40

some ideas about that. Virginia Voltaire. I

36:42

think the main reason It's just that

36:44

she was gone too soon. She

36:46

died very early in some way.

36:49

I am learning that the that

36:51

if you leave if you can

36:53

supervisor. You. Have more chance

36:56

to be remembered. As

36:59

for Brian Mcqueen, he he thinks that in

37:01

a way her disappearance is partly because she

37:04

was such a pioneer. If

37:06

you're to what's ahead of your time at the

37:08

Be A Curse. But

37:12

whether or not people known as his

37:14

name today or whether they know her

37:16

name well and remember her as a

37:18

thorn in their side lives matters a

37:20

lot. Of people Really? Good.

37:22

Center Steven Pinker again

37:24

for therapeutic. Everyone respective

37:26

her because she was

37:28

smart and she's absolutely

37:30

necessary to that intellectually

37:33

ecosystem. So. Where I would write

37:35

something I would have to think how

37:37

how he tried to mollusks. And here I

37:39

got to see that's the kind of

37:41

thing that makes you a better, a

37:43

sharper, better thinkers, younger, free pass. Lists.

37:46

Had the courage to challenge the status quo

37:49

and stand up to the ideas she disagreed

37:51

with no matter who they are coming from

37:53

and regardless of who got what right. In

37:55

the end, that had a challenge and debate

37:58

is what it takes to push science. Forward.

38:04

This episode was hosted by me

38:06

Katie Hafner and Me. Sami Abu

38:08

Zayd. Sammy of Road produced an

38:10

sound design this episode with help

38:13

from our senior producer L A

38:15

Sater. Lizzie Union composes Oliver music

38:17

and we had fact checking help

38:19

from Lexi A. T. And. I

38:22

want to thank George Carnivale a less

38:25

as husband who certain memories of lives

38:27

along with recordings of her voice that

38:29

you heard industries at also like to

38:31

think he and Roberts who took the

38:33

time to speak with us and helped

38:36

us better understand the need of his

38:38

perspective. Thanks also to just Sell this

38:40

year at are publishing partner Scientific American

38:42

an to my Toe executive producer Amy

38:45

Serve as well as our senior managing

38:47

producer Deborah. Under the episode or was

38:49

created. By Karen Memory. Loss

38:51

Women of Sciences funded in part by

38:54

the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation and the

38:56

An would just seven days and were

38:58

distributed free pair of you can get

39:01

so notes and an episode transcript. At

39:03

last A Man of Science that years.

39:06

Due. To the. Phoenix

39:10

Week.