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Sometimes the work they were doing was

1:48

so. Perfectly.

1:50

Lyrical. And metaphorical that

1:53

I felt. The. Palms

1:55

are not hard to see.

1:59

i'm Carol Sutton Lewis, a host for

2:01

Lost Women of Science. And

2:03

today, for this Conversations episode, we want

2:06

to do something a little bit different.

2:09

So far throughout this series, we've spoken

2:11

to journalists and academics who've written histories

2:13

about the extraordinary and often neglected stories

2:15

of women in science. But

2:17

for this episode, we're speaking with a

2:19

poet who's turned the lives and

2:22

work of women scientists into art. Her

2:25

poems offer illuminating entry points into the

2:27

lives of dozens of scientists, bringing

2:30

us into the key successes, failures,

2:32

and tensions they've experienced. And

2:34

as we talk about the poems today, I

2:36

want to unpack a handful of core themes

2:39

that emerged throughout the collection and throughout many

2:41

of our own episodes as well. And

2:44

so, I'm delighted to welcome Jessie

2:46

Randall, author of Mathematics for Ladies,

2:48

Poems on Women in Science. Hi,

2:51

Jessie, thanks for joining me today. Hi,

2:53

Carol, I'm so glad to be on Lost Women

2:55

of Science. And we are so

2:58

happy to have you here. I

3:00

just have to confess as a former English major and

3:02

a huge poetry fan, I have absolutely loved all

3:05

that I have read to prepare for this. And

3:07

so I'm excited for our conversation. Well,

3:09

that's a dream come true for

3:12

me, the idea that we don't

3:14

have to separate poetry and literature

3:16

from scientific work. So

3:18

Jessie, tell us, what's the story

3:20

behind Mathematics for Ladies? How

3:22

did this collection come to be? I

3:24

went to a talk by a physics

3:27

professor at the college where I work.

3:30

I'm a librarian at Colorado College. And

3:32

Barbara Whitten was talking about the

3:35

so-called Pickering's harem, the

3:38

women who cataloged stars at

3:41

the Harvard Observatory, and

3:43

a side story

3:45

about Annie Jump Cannon really

3:48

caught my attention, first of all, because

3:50

that's a wonderful name, Annie

3:52

Jump Cannon. But

3:54

mostly because Professor Whitten

3:57

showed an image of one of

3:59

these catalogs. Cars and said

4:01

that any jump can

4:03

and could identify. These.

4:06

Stars, Years and. Years. After

4:08

she'd catalogue them, even though she

4:10

catalogued literally over a hundred thousand

4:13

stars for with food. Poetic.

4:15

Without. Me even doing anything it

4:17

was doesn't take handed to me. And

4:20

so then I started researching any gym

4:22

canon and I thought maybe I could

4:24

write you know, thirty poems about any

4:26

jump canon and have a whole collection

4:29

just about her. And of course the

4:31

poems about her led me to other

4:33

women in the so called harem and

4:36

then outside of that and pretty soon

4:38

I, I just couldn't stop. I was

4:40

researching women in science that were so

4:42

many more than I ever dreamed I

4:45

knew of. Maybe a handful of women

4:47

in science before I start of the

4:49

projects and now I've got, you know,

4:52

One. Hundred and fifty years or something and there

4:54

And I have barely begun. I mean, I I

4:56

have to stop. I

4:59

it's I'm sure I'm now trying

5:01

to stop this so. You.

5:03

Found. Any jump can

5:05

and you started writing poetry about

5:07

her. You sound others and tell

5:09

me how you were able to

5:11

use poetry to. Talk. About

5:13

all of them, I mean, where there

5:16

are things about each of them that

5:18

that let themselves to a poetic voice?

5:20

That's exactly the question that I asked

5:22

myself as a project went along. Why

5:24

are some women getting a poem and

5:27

some aren't Why? Why are some of

5:29

them getting my attention and mostly and

5:31

had to do with sort of built

5:33

in metaphors of the science and other

5:35

stem work that they were doing. At

5:37

first I was really looking at their

5:40

lives more than their work and that

5:42

story got a little. repetitive you

5:44

know young woman from the

5:46

seventeen hundreds eighteen hundreds nineteen

5:48

hundreds not allowed to go

5:50

to school not educated just

5:53

all the obstacles that these

5:55

women face that was the

5:57

story i kept seeing an

5:59

assumption I thought this is too

6:01

depressing. It's not fun anymore to

6:03

just write poems about women who

6:07

kept being told no. And so

6:09

then I started looking into, sometimes looking

6:11

into their actual published work and

6:14

using that within poems. Sometimes the

6:16

work they were doing was so

6:19

perfectly lyrical

6:21

and metaphorical that I

6:24

felt the poems were not hard

6:26

to see. And

6:30

so often I could get this one little bite

6:33

of their life and it's so

6:36

nice to write poems in the

6:39

era of the internet

6:41

because I can write a

6:43

poem and I don't need to do a lot

6:45

of explaining. People can look up this woman, they

6:47

can find out more. They sure can.

6:49

And we'll hear your poetry in just a

6:51

minute, but I was really struck while reading

6:54

the collection that in all the poems there's

6:56

a hint of the science that pulls you

6:58

in, but also in many instances

7:00

there's the hint of the person as well.

7:03

And in addition to the content, the structural

7:05

and stylistic choices you make are really fascinating.

7:08

For instance, sometimes you write in the first

7:10

person, sometimes you write in the third person.

7:12

How did you decide which way to go?

7:15

So I wanted to

7:17

try to inhabit these women and

7:19

feel what it would feel like to

7:22

love science so much that you're willing to

7:25

face so many obstacles, go up

7:27

against so much trouble to

7:29

do it. And that is

7:31

not something I feel myself. I'm not

7:33

a scientist. And so writing

7:36

from the point of view of the

7:38

scientist was a kind of

7:40

shortcut to the emotions of

7:42

being a woman scientist. However,

7:45

I didn't always feel like

7:47

I should or could do that. There

7:50

are some scientists whose inner

7:53

lives seem really

7:55

far away from my own. And

7:57

then I maybe would use third person. That's

8:01

a great segue into the first poem that

8:03

I wanted to focus on. In

8:05

the impressive list of scientists that you include,

8:07

you have several that we at Lost Women

8:10

of Science have featured, and I wanted to

8:12

start with a poem about one of them.

8:15

So you've written a poem about Rebecca

8:17

Lee Crumpler, and we did a full

8:19

episode on her last fall. She's the

8:21

first African-American female medical doctor in the

8:23

United States, and she's considered

8:25

the first black person to publish a medical book.

8:29

Can you please read that poem for us? I

8:31

would love to, Carol. Rebecca

8:33

Lee Crumpler, 1831-1895. They

8:38

call her the first black woman to

8:41

earn a medical degree. She

8:44

called herself doctoris. She

8:46

called herself businesswoman. She

8:48

called herself being. They

8:51

say first, first, first,

8:54

as though everyone before her lost. That

8:59

was really great. Thank you. Now, this

9:01

is a poem we wrote in the third person. Tell

9:03

me about that choice. Well, there's

9:06

an early draft of that poem where

9:09

the line was, I call myself being.

9:12

And I thought, this sounds

9:15

as though I'm saying, I, Jesse

9:17

Randall, am saying, oh, we're

9:19

all just beings. We're all humans. We're

9:21

all the same. And

9:23

not honoring the different

9:26

experiences of women of color.

9:31

We now talk about

9:33

intersectional feminism. I

9:35

wanted to be careful

9:38

not to gloss over

9:40

the differences in what it would be

9:42

like to try to get a medical

9:44

degree as a black woman versus

9:47

a white woman. For me to

9:49

say I call myself being in the

9:52

voice of Rebecca Lee Crumpler, it would

9:55

not be clear that She

9:57

herself did call herself those things.

10:00

The doctors being and business woman were

10:02

how she described herself and so I

10:04

wanted to make sure it's clear that

10:07

that's. That's. Factual and

10:09

not my own interpretation.

10:11

Of how she thought of herself. So

10:14

the last lines of the posts

10:16

last line of the poem, they

10:18

say first, first, first as though

10:21

everyone before her last several. He

10:23

stayed with me actually. and I

10:25

love what it made me think

10:27

about. I mean, This. Concept

10:29

that the person that. Gets

10:32

the title of first is

10:34

in fact. Standing.

10:36

On the shoulders are so many other people that.

10:39

Started. And couldn't make it. Am

10:41

I correct in thinking that's the way

10:43

that you were approaching it? Yes. Absolutely.

10:45

list so many of the women in

10:47

my book. They

10:49

might have an entry in in

10:52

an encyclopedia or have a a

10:54

whole book about them because they

10:56

were first at something and. I

10:59

release got curious about the women

11:01

before who tried and didn't. Didn't.

11:04

Quite get there. They're more

11:06

loss because they don't have

11:08

that word first in their

11:11

biographies. There might be. Many

11:13

more women in science and Leno. So

11:17

speaking of first with say on that concept

11:19

just a little bit longer because I have

11:21

to bring up the poem that you wrote

11:23

on. Marie Curie. The

11:25

first woman to win a Nobel prize and

11:27

and Marie Curie as a name that all

11:29

of. Us are familiar with a let's say that.

11:32

If people are familiar with the concept of

11:34

women scientists been familiar with Marie Curie, so

11:36

can you read us? The Marie Curie Bomb.

11:38

The focus is on this. Marie.

11:41

Curie. For. An Eighteen Sixty

11:44

Seven. Days. Nineteen Thirty Four.

11:48

Stop comparing need to every

11:50

woman scientist. Another.

11:52

Madame Curie. This a new

11:54

Madame Curie that. Stop

11:57

renaming women altogether. We

11:59

all. lose our names

12:01

to marriage, we already receive

12:04

unwanted nicknames from male colleagues

12:06

who are far from collegial. Talk

12:09

about toxic. Will the

12:11

ticking of my machine ever, ever

12:14

stop? That

12:16

was really great. So what went

12:18

into your thought process as to how to

12:21

handle Madame Curie? I

12:23

really kind of wanted to leave Marie

12:25

Curie out of the book because if

12:27

I was talking poetry with other poets

12:29

or if I was talking science with

12:31

people who do science, I would say

12:33

tell me your favorite woman scientist. And

12:36

very often the only person people

12:38

could think of was Marie Curie. And

12:41

that really bums me out. Like yes,

12:43

she's amazing but there should be so

12:46

many more women that people come across

12:48

in their regular lives without having to

12:50

do a whole bunch of special research.

12:52

At school we shouldn't learn

12:55

only about male scientists. I

12:59

mean that's such a no-brainer. I mean so when

13:03

I was a girl I had

13:05

the idea that I would be a doctor. It just

13:07

seemed like the coolest job. I had

13:09

a really terrific working mom

13:11

who said you can do anything

13:13

all that good support. And

13:16

I thought this is what I'll do. And

13:19

somewhere along the line I stopped

13:22

thinking that. And in

13:24

my version of my own life I would say

13:26

oh it's because the first time I had to

13:28

dissect anything it was gross and

13:30

I didn't like it and so I didn't want

13:32

to do the science after all. And

13:35

that is the story I have told myself for

13:38

many decades. But I wonder now

13:40

if I had seen women doing

13:42

science, if there had been posters

13:44

of women scientists on the walls

13:46

in my classrooms, I

13:48

might have stayed. I don't know. I don't

13:51

think the world lost a wonderful doctor when

13:53

I decided not to do that. But

13:56

it does make me Wonder about all

13:58

these girls growing up today. We

14:00

know they still getting pushed out. Who's.

14:03

Thank you for sharing that you know it's

14:05

a sad story and unfortunately of really com

14:07

and one. Coming. Back

14:09

to Marie Curie, though I understand completely your

14:11

desire to leave her out. But you can't

14:14

leave out Marie Curie because when you think

14:16

about women, scientists sees the when you think

14:18

of. That. I really love

14:20

your approach to her. I mean this concept

14:22

that her name should not be the only

14:24

name. We all want to be inspired by

14:26

someone like Marie Curie. But tell me what

14:28

do you think the problem is with just

14:31

sort of assaulting to her as the woman

14:33

scientist. It's defaulting that

14:35

as the problem here. We need

14:37

to look at more than just

14:39

the one story. It's It's better

14:42

than nothing. but it's not the

14:44

full picture and. It. Should

14:46

be a gateway into other

14:48

stories and not not yet.

14:51

More after the break. Hi,

15:00

I'm Katie Hafner Codes I could

15:02

have producer of Last Women of

15:05

Science. We need your help. Tracking

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Your donations make this work possible.

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Help us bring you more

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visit last one Than a

15:42

science.org That's Last Women of

15:44

science.org. Next.

15:48

I went to turn to another scientist. We've covered

15:51

on last women of science. Lisa

15:53

Minor. Lisa. might knows when

15:55

to the physicist who discovered nuclear fusion but

15:57

she was robbed of the nobel prize for

15:59

that discovery as it went solely

16:02

to her collaborator, Atohon, which

16:05

unfortunately is not a new story.

16:07

Jesse, would you please read this poem for us? Gladly.

16:12

Lisa Meitner, born 1878, dies 1968. They

16:17

barred me from the science labs at

16:19

the University of Berlin. For fear, I'd

16:22

set my hair on fire. By

16:25

they, I mean men, the men in

16:27

charge. By for fear,

16:29

I mean they feared me.

16:32

That line about my hair, I had to

16:35

laugh. I laughed some

16:37

more when the papers mixed up

16:39

cosmic with cosmetic. I

16:41

was in the newspaper, you see. I

16:44

was the mother of nuclear power,

16:46

and I left all the way

16:48

away from the Manhattan Project, in

16:50

which I refused to participate. On

16:53

that project, the men who worried

16:55

about my hair created enough fire

16:58

to burn 200,000 bodies

17:00

down to nothing. That's

17:05

a great example of your

17:07

using humor. The concept that

17:09

they were focused on her hair is laughable, but

17:13

the humor quickly gives way to

17:15

this seizing anger. I mean, was

17:17

that your reaction to the story?

17:21

Oh, yeah. Even on the project,

17:23

I lived in rage

17:26

for years, and

17:28

often had to laugh

17:31

at some

17:33

tiny kernel of humor, something funny,

17:36

because everything else was so dark. As

17:39

you can tell from interviewing me, I

17:42

can talk and talk and blab,

17:44

all kinds of blabs. The

17:47

thing that I like so much about

17:50

a poem is that I

17:53

have to hold back, and I

17:55

can say the things without

17:57

just exploding into a screen.

18:00

dream of anger

18:02

and convey something in a

18:04

small space, in a few

18:07

words, that obviously

18:09

I could talk for five hours

18:11

and bore everyone to tears and

18:14

drive myself bananas. So Lisa Meitner,

18:16

the idea that these scientists wouldn't

18:19

want her beautiful hair to be damaged,

18:21

you know, that she's this delicate creature

18:23

and they're so gentlemanly,

18:25

you know, and then what

18:28

they do is invent

18:31

and design something that

18:33

murders unimaginable

18:35

numbers of human beings that's

18:39

not very gentlemanly. It's that

18:42

false kindness, a false protection.

18:45

They're going to protect her hair from being burned

18:48

while they push her out of science

18:51

and do the science their way.

18:53

Right, in a way that she didn't

18:56

want to cooperate with. Which

18:58

is why we need more women

19:00

in science. Women in science bring

19:02

something to the work that apparently

19:05

we need. And

19:08

as you say, and as we know, she

19:10

was so troubled by the development of atomic

19:13

weapons and she believed that science

19:15

and even her research should be used for

19:17

the betterment of humanity, novel destruction. So to your

19:20

point, you need that person at

19:22

the table. Now

19:24

I want to turn to the poem about

19:26

Mary Anning, who like Marie Curie is a

19:28

name that many will recognize. Mary

19:30

Anning was a paleontologist who made

19:32

groundbreaking discoveries in Jurassic marine fossil

19:34

beds in Dorset, England. And

19:37

I want to turn to this poem because I know it's a favorite

19:39

of yours to discuss. So first, will you read

19:41

it for us? Mary Anning, born

19:43

1799, dies 1847. Things

19:48

she sold by the seashore. Shells,

19:51

fish lizards, sea

19:53

dragons, flying dragons. The

19:56

story of being hit by lightning. Things

19:59

she... By the seashore

20:01

specimens Things she knew by

20:04

the seashore that the lightning

20:06

story with a money. Things

20:10

she loved and lost by

20:12

the seashore. Her dog tray

20:15

killed in a landslide. So.

20:19

First of all, tell me why Is this when

20:21

your favorite son and a go to poem for

20:23

you when you're when you're reading. Well.

20:27

Mary Anning is someone that people

20:29

in the United sates. Don't.

20:31

Often know about, but they

20:33

do know the tongue twister.

20:35

She sells seashells by the

20:38

seashore assess which is probably

20:40

not about Mary Anning, but.

20:43

Might be could be an

20:45

this combination of the legends

20:47

and the law or alongside

20:49

the true story of Mary.

20:51

Anning is really interesting to

20:54

me and fun to think

20:56

about cuz along with the

20:58

scientific work she did, she

21:00

had a great backstory. she

21:02

was hit by lightning when

21:05

she was a small child

21:07

and there's even an additional

21:09

bit that story where people

21:11

say oh she was. A

21:13

sickly little baby. but after

21:16

that lightning strike, she became

21:18

strong and vibrant. So this

21:20

is the kind of story

21:23

that the tourists to visit

21:25

Lyme Regis. Love

21:27

to hear. It's more fun to

21:29

buy a fossil from a woman

21:31

with a cool backstory like that.

21:34

And so the poem tries to

21:36

get at that sense of. The.

21:39

Real Mary Anning and

21:41

the storied Mary Anning. And

21:43

the tension between the

21:45

two. Men

21:47

and it seems like not just in this

21:50

example, but throughout the poems in your book.

21:52

You use the magic of poetry to go

21:54

beyond the scientific facts of the person's work.

21:57

And. this is a great example with the tongue

21:59

twisters She sells seashells and your

22:01

talk about sea dragons and flying

22:04

dragons. These details give

22:06

the poem an almost fairy tale-like

22:08

quality. Yes. And I think this

22:10

is kind of what every poem is, what

22:12

I'm trying to do here. Like Mary Anning

22:14

was a real person, but

22:17

we can't know her because she's

22:19

dead. And she did not write

22:21

a memoir. She didn't leave us a lot to

22:23

know about her. And so we

22:25

have to use our imaginations. And

22:28

I think there's, it's

22:30

the whole idea of these lost women.

22:33

We don't know what they thought

22:35

about so much because nobody asked

22:37

them when they were alive and

22:39

nobody understood what

22:41

they were doing, what they achieved. In

22:44

some cases because they were erased. In

22:47

other cases because they were ignored. You

22:50

know, it strikes me just listening to you

22:53

talk about this, how important it is that

22:55

we have poetry to bring these scientists to

22:57

life when there's not much documentation or there's

22:59

not enough archival evidence to put their lives

23:02

in the proper historical context. And

23:04

yet in using the language of poetry to

23:06

bring what they've done to life and to

23:09

speculate thoughtfully on how they might have done

23:11

this, it gives us, as I was saying

23:13

earlier, the opportunity to peek into their lives.

23:16

It enables us to rediscover these lost women

23:18

in ways that we are just not able

23:21

to do if we're just going to rely on

23:23

history books to find them. Exactly.

23:26

Yes. When women

23:31

have been erased,

23:34

the only way to call

23:36

attention to that is to imagine what they

23:40

were. You can't dig

23:42

under the erasure. So

23:45

finally, I want to turn to a

23:47

poem that isn't from Mathematics for Ladies.

23:50

The poem from your upcoming collection,

23:52

The Path of Most Resistance, another

23:54

great title. So this will be

23:56

a little sneak preview. This poem

23:58

is about Flemmy Cottrell. other scientists we've

24:00

covered on lost women of science. Flemme

24:03

was the first African-American woman to earn

24:05

a PhD in nutrition, and her

24:07

research paved the way for the establishment of a

24:09

Head Start program. If you don't mind, I'd

24:11

love to read this one. Howard

24:14

University lured me, promising a new

24:16

home mech building, but

24:18

academia has slow metabolism. I've

24:21

always said prejudice is having your thoughts too

24:23

soon. I spent my whole

24:25

career fighting that kind of snap judgment. So

24:28

maybe it's all right I never worked in the

24:30

building they promised. They did eventually build

24:33

it after I retired and moved away.

24:36

If not for me, there'd be no place

24:38

for the galoshes and the zippers, the crayons,

24:40

the dress-up bin, the nap mats, the small

24:42

chairs, and yes, even books, lots

24:45

and lots of picture books, and the

24:47

children themselves, and the mothers and fathers

24:49

and grandparents and teachers and families,

24:51

and all that love. Tell

24:54

me, how'd you come across Flemme Quitro? Early

24:57

on, I realized that

24:59

the books I was using tended

25:01

to focus on white women, but

25:05

I wanted to, I kind

25:07

of wanted to find some women that weren't as

25:10

well known. And I found

25:12

this crazy typed up list

25:14

that someone created. It was hundreds

25:17

of women. I just,

25:19

I couldn't look up more information

25:21

about every single one, and so

25:24

I kind of went by interesting

25:26

names, and Flemme Quitro was

25:28

a wonderfully interesting name. I suppose it's

25:30

similar to the Annie Jump Cannon moment.

25:33

And so I looked into her

25:36

life and found that

25:38

this was just my kind of story and

25:41

different from what a lot of

25:44

the other scientists had done. I'm

25:46

so glad you're including her in your next book. And

25:50

so wrapping up this conversation about poetry

25:52

and women in science, have there been

25:54

any big takeaways for you in writing

25:56

this collection? And have it

25:58

changed your perspective on women in science? science in any

26:00

way? I like all kinds

26:02

of poems but these research-based poems I

26:05

mean I got a little obsessed. I

26:08

could not stop. I think now

26:10

I'm slowing down. I seem

26:12

to be able to turn my

26:14

mind to other topics at this

26:16

point but for

26:19

me a lot of it was

26:21

just about having

26:23

somewhere to put my rage in

26:27

a way that I don't want to set anything

26:29

on fire. I don't want to actually punch anyone.

26:31

Do you know at one point

26:34

when I was sending these poems out to magazines

26:37

I got a response from one editor who said

26:40

I don't publish

26:42

rants and I

26:44

mean you can imagine

26:47

the smoke coming out of my

26:49

ears reading that rejection. I'm quite

26:51

used to rejection. I know that

26:54

that's part of being a writer

26:56

but the idea that my poems were

26:59

rants. A rant

27:03

is crazy. A crazy

27:05

person rants. It's not

27:07

crazy to be really

27:09

angry about women

27:12

and girls getting pushed out of the STEM

27:14

fields. It hurts everyone and being

27:18

angry about it is necessary.

27:22

No it's not crazy at all. Actually it reminds

27:25

me of the Lost Women of Science tagline.

27:27

We're not mad. We're curious. Okay

27:29

we're a little mad. This is definitely

27:32

something to be angry about. And

27:36

we're so grateful you're doing the work to

27:38

bring these stories to light. Thank you so

27:40

much Jesse. And thank you Carol for everything

27:43

you do for Lost Women of Science. This

27:47

episode of Lost Women of Science Conversations

27:49

was hosted by me Carol Sutton Lewis.

27:52

Our thanks go to Jesse Randall for taking the time to

27:54

talk with us. Sophie McNulty was

27:57

a producer and sound engineer. Lexi

27:59

Atio was a fact checker Lizzie

28:01

Union composers all of our music

28:03

and Karen Never Act designs are

28:05

are it Thanks Suggested the Ceo

28:07

and are publishing partner Scientific American.

28:09

Thanks also to executive producers Amy

28:12

Sharp and Katie Hafner as well

28:14

as. To Senior managing producer. Deborah Ongar,

28:17

Law School in a Scientist in part

28:19

by the Alfred P. Sloan Foundation. And

28:21

the am would just be foundation were

28:24

distributed by P R X thanks. For

28:26

listening and do subscribe at last women of

28:28

Science. That or so you'll never miss. An

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episode.