0:00

and i'm also going to be recording on this

0:02

end stanley and do i your permission to

0:04

record on, on my end leaving?

0:06

i

0:11

, i had a legitimate expectation

0:13

of privacy 50 years

0:15

ago i didn't need snowden

0:17

to tell me so it's okay

0:24

are you actually spark from

0:26

that? i know of, at this point?

0:34

israel egypt and i recently learned

0:36

for friends or saudi arabia i

0:38

, them also barred from you even

0:42

even europe i've no idea haven't traveled and wants

0:45

but israel i know for a faq egypt but speeds

0:47

up this a friend of mine said you not

0:49

only barred did you go to egypt

0:51

i'm sure the let you land the and you

0:53

days later your next of kin will be called you could be

0:55

the first person history end up suicide by

0:57

drowning in the sinai

1:00

he wanted to do like an introduction

1:03

to see you have it on tape to want to do i

1:05

like my name is julie com and com and a lawyer

1:08

he knew i would sing my way by frank

1:10

sinatra i mean yes

1:12

please do you the is it's funny

1:14

because i went to the house the to

1:17

take a break and i had no less

1:19

than than three either tax

1:21

for phone messages and will just leave it that

1:23

from three different persons who

1:25

were designated as foreign that the designated

1:28

terrorist

1:30

you popular aware

1:32

yeah well you know it's

1:35

the

1:37

that's what i do

1:43

you're listening to love and radio i'm

1:45

nicholas sardine punch punch ventricles

1:48

today's episode before the

1:50

law citrine stanley cohen

2:00

i would you describe your appearance

2:03

what's that rock band that had the

2:06

the beards down to their knees

2:09

the the top i think he has it

2:11

up i probably could pass for zz top

2:13

right now

2:15

my beard is is while

2:17

it's six seven

2:19

inches loss and might air

2:21

is completely out of control i

2:24

call the local beautician and she said

2:26

you'd come into your hair but hair

2:28

can't to your beard right now as i'm not making

2:30

two trips gimme a quo and you could do my beard it's

2:33

while

2:35

the you feel like your your parents

2:38

like have any particular advantages or disadvantages

2:41

and in the work that you do

2:43

i don't really killer people come to me

2:46

or , adversaries in court or

2:48

judges before whom i appear appear

2:50

know very well that i am not your typical

2:52

in terms of looks let looks and

2:55

approach to litigation or appearance

2:57

or demeanor in a courtroom the classic

3:00

now white collar or doors

3:02

now doors collar or you type lawyer

3:04

i've i've been known

3:07

for pinstripes and known for nice shoes

3:09

and bus that the

3:11

eyeball so tried cases

3:14

in jeans and work

3:16

boots and then i

3:18

don't do it for particular purpose items died i

3:20

mean in the most important thing for

3:22

a trial attorneys to take over the court is

3:25

to make sure that the jury understands you

3:27

own the court the

3:30

judge may may run it but

3:32

you won't

3:33

the what are the things you have to do

3:35

in order to take over the courtroom

3:38

ah

3:40

some would say pick fights with the judge

3:42

someone would would say push the envelope

3:45

with the judge some would be to not be intimidated

3:47

mild i'm like what he what do you think that

3:50

lie lie it's important as a trial attorney

3:53

to stand your ground not to be intimidated

3:55

not to be cowards not to simply one

3:57

a judge says sustained he set

3:59

up another try to same question six times

4:01

and force a judge to say move on i

4:04

, it's important and jury selection to make sure

4:06

the judge understands that they're

4:08

the boss no matter who's sitting in the ropes

4:10

i think it's important to to argue

4:13

over principal not just to create show with

4:15

the government to make sure that people

4:17

and are and lot

4:20

every criminal case every

4:22

almost everyone is political

4:24

in nature one way or another from

4:27

, person that puts you in the handcuffs

4:29

to the person that that spans across

4:31

from your lawyer and makes a bail application

4:33

to the judge decides whether you're

4:36

going home to your mother your father your son or

4:38

daughter tonight tomorrow daughter tonight years

4:40

from now to the appellate court that oversees

4:43

what of the process work to protect the status

4:45

quo and thoughts it's political

4:48

the block the reality of

4:50

it is if you know your stuff if

4:52

your political if you're a fighter or

4:55

if your honesty your clients and yourself

4:57

and you work god damn hard you

4:59

can even in the midst of the higher

5:02

of a system that's built upon a

5:05

, people on the basis of largely

5:07

color or class and

5:09

politics you can win

5:17

the i grew up in a kosher households and

5:19

religion was practiced faith

5:21

, strong i would go on saturday

5:23

mornings as a young man

5:26

man my father to father my

5:28

father had been a world

5:31

war two veteran

5:33

and hero

5:34

very very very rarely talked about

5:37

war experiences

5:40

i came into the living in one day and saw

5:42

him fixated on , tv

5:45

show show was i and

5:47

it was a story of a of a concentration

5:50

camp a nazi type the occupants a book

5:52

about him feel fantasy the with

5:54

the bodies emaciated women

5:56

and children standing behind a fence

5:59

wave of function awesome bodies have

6:01

any told me this one story about

6:03

how he had gone into the basement of a

6:06

concentration camp to liberate and

6:09

, came across a skeletal person sitting

6:11

on the floor who had no idea who my father was

6:13

didn't saw a uniform and

6:15

he started to cry because he thought he was

6:17

going my

6:21

father ended up carrying him

6:23

outside carrying them to the day

6:25

of light left him there gave him some food water

6:28

and then moved on

6:31

the fires of nelson not out

6:33

the place but not the memory

6:45

i think to some degree my father's response

6:48

to what he observed when he lived through terms

6:51

of world war two in concentration camps

6:53

led , as he grew older and

6:55

as he swam war with israel israel

6:58

how israel had become everything that

7:00

he had had fought against and resisted

7:02

and repulsed him about humanity when

7:04

it came to came during

7:06

the first intifada they were images that would i would

7:09

come to visit my parents that my

7:11

father would would commenter my mother would comment

7:13

about this is not the place

7:16

in these are not the people in these are not the politics

7:18

that you know i politics i you

7:20

for and lived for and my mother in

7:22

particular as a young girl

7:25

she told me years later she

7:27

used to raise money for at

7:29

, and zionist movement

7:31

them in in in street corners

7:34

in the city and and elsewhere new jersey

7:37

jersey occasion i could recall sitting

7:39

around and in the living room of the apartment

7:41

and king street with her sort

7:43

of shaking her head as

7:45

she saw stories and television of

7:49

mass executions and of and and

7:52

israeli bombs firebombs of

7:54

recalling how as recalling firebombs a twelve or thirteen

7:57

or fourteen year old kid on a street corner and kid

7:59

on the jury the fund raising money

8:01

she said if i had known then that that

8:03

i was raising money to later on build

8:06

bombs drop on other human beings i would have never

8:08

done it

8:20

i i just finished six

8:23

months worth of litigation

8:25

pro bono i might add my then girlfriend design

8:27

kept reminding me of the thirteenth

8:29

street squatter case malawi side of manhattan

8:32

very long trial lots of

8:34

work and appeal lots of a rest

8:36

lots of litigation slots of witnesses

8:39

i , exhausted totally fucking

8:41

beat and my then girlfriend

8:44

had surprised me with getting us a a

8:46

cabin on the beach in maine

8:49

maine a week or two weeks since i guy okay

8:51

we're packing we're getting ready to go to you

8:54

know everything was under control my two

8:56

weeks off and someone watching the dog

8:58

and everything was good when

9:00

the phone rang and it was some

9:02

people

9:03

who said the stanley we got we

9:05

got a case that we want you to take a look at

9:07

i should name and

9:10

tired and burned them spend some going to main

9:12

with my girlfriend and

9:14

, sudden i know this is of this is a major player

9:17

we want you to take a look we think you the person as you

9:19

will what happened they should well well a guy

9:21

that had was arrested coming back

9:23

into the united states is being held at m c c

9:26

and i says c gotta i says

9:29

so yeah i just said

9:31

the who is this guy

9:33

the person said most abu

9:35

marzouk

9:36

that's nice

9:38

i'm make the name of the make the

9:40

name is a time and nothing to me i

9:43

, just trying to be cordial

9:45

let who's most abu marzouk

9:47

the the caller said

9:50

he's the head of hamas oh

9:53

oh okay so what happened

9:55

there for years most abu

9:58

marzouk has been one of a masters

9:59

fund raisers a masters

10:02

and political strategists has

10:04

passed when the manner of a political spokesman

10:07

who chose home ago not to notice

10:09

the plug on his hands moosehead been

10:11

in the united states for years he'd been

10:13

there it's got his masters degree as i

10:15

recall the got his phd degree there

10:18

he was involved in organizing palestinian communities

10:20

throughout the united states and social service

10:22

activities in fundraising for activities back

10:25

palestine the state department decided

10:27

they wanted to expel him from united states

10:31

used as as

10:46

for audience members who are not familiar with

10:48

hamas just like i had

10:51

a quick

10:52

summary of what hamas

10:54

is

10:55

the masses a national liberation movement it

10:57

is the elected representative government and

10:59

in gaza it , a political

11:02

wing it has a military wing and as a national

11:04

liberation movement and it is

11:06

the sole movement with the largest movement

11:08

that has involves an armed struggle against the

11:11

israeli military and security forces

11:15

i mean a live in the west people would commonly

11:17

referred to hamas as a palestinian terrorist

11:20

group

11:20

well i don't really give two shit

11:23

about what people in the west thing

11:26

what was ever mosaics role in hamas

11:28

i will marzouk was one of the original founders of

11:30

a mass he was the head of the political bureau

11:33

the first set of the political bureau until he was

11:36

arrested and held

11:38

in the united states for almost two years

11:40

very serious political guy

11:42

was very clear and keen understanding

11:45

of where he's been that lie he personally

11:47

but palestinians were he has been where they

11:49

have been where they are where the need to go

11:52

you're , about them but eleven now

11:54

twelve million people that are stateless lives

11:56

that are homeless ah that are under

11:58

siege i get dressed

12:01

and i very quickly my boots out of my jeans

12:03

of my hair was a mess of my beard was a mess and

12:05

i went down mc scenes at into see abu marzouk

12:08

they , the cage downstairs and nine south

12:11

and the main entrance whites whites

12:13

feet long twenty feet wide with

12:15

bars so they could observe

12:17

us i guess they wanted to make sure i was in handing

12:19

them a snickers a or are

12:21

you know where marlins of cocktail and

12:24

he came out to see me and you know he looked at

12:26

me stared at me the i'd me up and down

12:28

up and down up and down he looked

12:30

amazing or you

12:32

i

12:34

said i'm a lawyer the

12:36

looked up and down up and down like i used

12:39

a certain phrase i don't remember what it was

12:42

that i was given to convey

12:44

to him to let him know i've been sent by the right

12:46

people ah whatever

12:48

was i don't remember maybe it was you know the

12:51

chevy pickup as in the parking lot item

12:53

know i'm ,

12:56

i used the phrase in at that point he knew that

12:58

everything was was was hello

13:00

not her on that was good so

13:02

he looked him he said i don't need a lawyer

13:06

i said you're right you don't need one lawyer

13:08

you need a dozen lawyers the

13:11

i spent about three hours with him that night

13:15

that home called my girlfriend was furious

13:18

started screaming you fucker what are you doing in

13:20

a scooter vacation planned bob of us

13:22

and i said mirror i'm not going

13:25

when you go up there and i'll join you to few days

13:27

she said i've been through this before fuck

13:29

you hung up that was

13:31

the end of it and know

13:33

my became abu marzouk slow

13:37

and understanding of like a lot

13:39

of photographs year off a sister

13:41

one upstairs i'm not going up my leg

13:43

a skill and militias well unless the me talk

13:45

about reality of us out of that's

13:47

fun well

13:55

let's say this is with me we years

13:57

on whether this mess me with a blow marge

13:59

you know yasir arafat years ago

14:02

this is me with the

14:04

shift shafman you seen was the founder

14:06

of hamas god this this is one

14:08

of my favorites is also in gaza

14:11

me with a boomer zoo coors the head of the political

14:13

wing of hamas last broke again get a text

14:19

or friends also rafa ninety rafa

14:21

ninety a great sign welcomes hamas camp

14:32

i spent a ,

14:34

hours with abu marzouk marzouk

14:37

his and members of family community

14:40

and went overseas and spend a

14:42

lot of time leadership of hamas

14:44

with the framers and founders of a mars with

14:46

these were women and men that women spent

14:49

years in mix communities

14:51

in two minutes of christians and muslims or jews

14:53

of academic circles of scientific circles

14:55

of legal circles who were organized

14:58

to were speakers this was never

15:00

about jews is nothing this

15:02

was never political struggle for self determination

15:04

deliberations it added it would zionism

15:07

it had to do with international law

15:09

so this was not about oh my god you're the first

15:11

you we met

15:18

if i was visiting with my parents in

15:20

westchester and musso would call

15:23

their phone number to get hold of me and

15:25

i walked in one day and my mother said she

15:28

says she said to me it's most i'm talking to

15:30

most

15:31

and she said are they treating you okay are you eating

15:33

okay is everything okay how's your wife how's

15:35

your kids yes mrs cohen

15:37

how are you is your leg better a

15:40

you know eighty five then year old

15:42

the judicial mama sitting around

15:45

the combating about her health

15:47

with the leader of hamas and mcc

15:53

earlier today suicide

15:55

bombers flew up to buses in the southern

15:57

israeli city of new chiba in israel

15:59

the day to suicide bombers detonated

16:02

there

16:08

that doesn't more wounded

16:11

police and witnesses said the bomber avoided best

16:13

number nine sixty at the main high for first

16:15

station said office charge about twenty

16:17

minutes later in a rush hour traffic hamas

16:20

and a lot the martyrs brigade claimed

16:22

joint responsibility see our group

16:24

hamas has taken responsibility as i understand

16:27

that's correct

16:36

i have never supported attacks on civilians

16:39

by anyone anymore i

16:41

think civilians are completely off the table and off

16:44

the target but you know there's

16:46

there's not this vatican litmus test

16:48

where oh my god at one point

16:50

at one time one place someone who

16:52

claim to have been a member of your movement

16:55

or actually was dispatched by some of your movements

16:57

target as civilians on writing you was if

17:00

that were the case i would have to live in a fucking caves

17:03

on mars

17:05

there are times

17:08

the national liberation movements where

17:10

things get ugly but

17:12

we're not talking about movements

17:15

with air force's we're not talking

17:17

about movements with navy's we're not

17:19

talking about movements with your tanks

17:22

we're not talking about movements that

17:24

have highly sophisticated networks

17:27

of weaponry that

17:29

european european colonial projects

17:32

as we can lead us back up a second sandwiches

17:34

i really what i want to understand

17:37

is , his violence illegitimate

17:39

tactic and when is it not

17:41

like is it just about who's

17:44

wielding it and how much power they

17:47

already have

17:48

i got to listen this settled by

17:51

by international law

17:53

the law more armed struggle

17:55

which includes violence is legal

17:57

under international law for

17:59

people that are rocky [unk]

18:01

armed violence

18:02

is permitted for people that are engaged in

18:04

self defense of communities of homes

18:07

are armed violence is permissible response

18:09

under the law of war two invading forces

18:12

to invading severe even people that are reservists

18:14

it's legitimate under war right there

18:17

the law of war

18:18

and and the geneva conventions very

18:21

clearly defines when the use of violence

18:23

including violent of armed violence

18:26

is permissible we own a

18:28

digital it's armed struggle

18:30

the use of of weapons the use of

18:32

violence under international law is

18:35

one hundred percent lawful it's

18:37

awful

18:38

or even even putting like putting that

18:40

aside and mean in terms of like

18:43

whether any of

18:45

the activities that hamas and

18:47

i'm engaged to that's to that's give you personally

18:51

that like suicide bombings are tangible

18:55

listen i'm a lawyer

18:57

okay i'm involved with clients

19:00

for many years even in those the people involved

19:02

an armed struggle i'm involved

19:04

with people who have at times used violence

19:06

at times jews their their their their tongues

19:09

at ties huge use them

19:12

arm tactics it would be described

19:14

as pacifist the times engage norm

19:16

struggle i don't dictate

19:18

the manner and means of armed struggle or resistance

19:21

as not for me to do you

19:23

know if i'm going to pass judgment

19:26

on anyone

19:27

the tactics for strategies for the

19:29

activity they've engaged and i don't have to travel

19:31

outside of washington dc

19:34

i mean that you know when you begin to say are

19:36

there anything a troubled youth the slaughter

19:38

of millions of north american indians treble

19:40

me in the slave industry probably

19:43

the surf industry evasions troubled me

19:46

jim crow troubles me the us senate

19:48

including bernie sanders voting for sanctions

19:50

interacts and nineteen ninety eight or whatever

19:52

was which killed half killed half children troubled

19:55

me the dropping of atom bombs troubles

19:57

mates the invasion of iraq and of

20:00

in troubled me so i don't have to take a look

20:02

at self determination the national resistance movements

20:05

in the middle east the fines

20:08

enough to to to to to to to be

20:10

in the i the storm over issues of weapons

20:12

and movements and violence and and and and

20:14

that sipe of activity so

20:16

where do i stammered why do i was inculcated

20:18

i grew up in the most violent harvest regime

20:22

the last several centuries called the united states

20:27

let let let let let let me say this let let me

20:29

let me just as as as as as

20:32

a close up i have zero

20:35

doubt in my mind

20:37

the fire palestinian

20:40

what i would do zero

20:42

doubt in my in what would you do

20:45

i would clearly be involved in armed

20:47

struggle

20:49

clearly no if ands or buts and

20:51

i probably would have been in prison by israel

20:53

and murdered or died in jail twenty

20:55

years ago

20:59

so her along these lines we were

21:02

hoping to play a terrorist

21:04

or freedom fighter lightning round

21:09

though i'm gonna i'm just gonna throw out some names

21:11

you tell me if there are terrorists or freedom fighter

21:15

that hamas oh freedom fighters

21:18

okay hezbollah freedom fighter al

21:20

qaeda largely

21:23

terrorist isis are

21:25

clearly terrorist khmer rouge

21:28

sick , puppies

21:31

oh absolutely a habit

21:33

bass separatists freedom

21:35

fighters and will tigers both

21:38

let me ask you what

21:40

was the i rang out there was no can be

21:42

next to my list actually oh okay

21:45

freedom fighters have

21:47

, bundy's isn't those guys who took

21:49

over the yeah the national wildlife refuge

21:52

lunatics

21:54

up

21:56

have the rebel alliance from star wars

21:59

nano nano

22:02

shows but

22:14

when you win the case of a leader of hamas and

22:17

beat israel seeking his extradition you

22:19

tend to be someone is wanted by lots of

22:21

folks lots of movements lots of clients in

22:23

the middle east

22:24

osama bin laden son in law will appear in a

22:26

manhattan quorum today after being

22:28

caught into

22:29

the and threw him on abu ghaith was

22:31

the propagandists frog hide out in the world

22:33

of al qaeda he was the guy who married the

22:35

boss's daughter if ever there was a guy

22:38

swept up the deer in the headlights

22:41

it's someone up again

22:43

the happy i compared him to something like

22:45

a propaganda minister in a developing

22:47

countries where consigliere he in a mob

22:49

family

22:50

the son in law will appear before a new

22:52

york federal magistrate in a courtroom here to

22:54

answer charges of conspiracy the kill

22:56

us citizen as a top member of

22:58

his father in law's intercept

22:59

you would in one video that came out yesterday after

23:02

the nine eleven attacks which bin laden

23:04

to credit for the attacks and abu ghaith

23:06

praise them on

23:07

i'm santa hermes

23:09

us and america must know

23:11

the what happened to it is a direct result

23:13

of this policy and if america will

23:15

continue implementing this policy muslim

23:18

sons will not stop under any circumstances

23:24

so in abu

23:25

it is a good guy

23:27

the the closest guys ever come to a

23:30

of the a bomb

23:31

the gun a plan that

23:34

why

23:35

television

23:36

so what exactly was the accused of doing material

23:38

support for terrorism by virtue of

23:41

being a religious figure for awhile

23:44

a in various camps and

23:46

afghanistan and also

23:49

making public statements and speeches on

23:51

air and and various institutions which

23:54

the government saw as a means of organizing

23:56

and enticing additional members to come to join

23:58

okay

23:59

the regency said some stupid thing

24:02

you know because you were charismatic

24:04

because there were lots of young people because they

24:06

believe the new because they followed you even

24:08

though know we had no reasonably to involve

24:10

and nine eleven your charisma your speech

24:13

your voice helped organize other

24:15

people who were that's why you that

24:18

was the theory and

24:20

what would his responses allegations

24:24

his response was simple not guilty his response

24:26

was i

24:29

, an absolute right to make statements and

24:31

speeches about the united states and you

24:34

know i'm i am i to self muscle on

24:36

the off chance that i'm a powerful speaker and

24:38

a charismatic speaker in people might

24:40

identify with me and because of that might decide

24:42

they want to engage in one organizations

24:44

whether it's okay to or another one i'm

24:48

tom paine was incredibly charismatic he

24:50

was incredibly pamphlet theory made speeches on the corner

24:53

stanley town has been call that bad various

24:55

times and places various charismatic speaker might

24:57

be charged with violating the law

24:59

because as the result of my feelings or sentiments

25:01

about various nations estates throughout

25:03

the world someone chooses to go and do some

25:07

so that case was tried

25:08

the new york city right yeah the southern dishes

25:11

yeah so

25:13

are you facing a losing battle

25:15

going in

25:16

trying to defend a guy who is alleged

25:18

to have been part of nine eleven soon as he was

25:20

it or he was an alleged of he had nothing

25:23

to do with nine eleven

25:24

the a but trying

25:27

, case of bin laden son in law who

25:29

was seen the day after nine eleven

25:31

in the video saying we're going to come and

25:33

get you again you know a mile

25:35

from where the do the world trade centers

25:38

where sure it's terrible terrible

25:40

also at the same time and the jewish defense organizations

25:42

plastered all over the neighborhood in

25:45

neighborhood tax on me for being a self hating jew

25:47

and for all the blah for blah blah during

25:50

jury selection they leave flitted the night

25:52

before jury selection i don't remember a whole

25:54

bunch of leaflets about cohen

25:56

needs to be taught cohen needs to be school

25:58

he is an enemy of the julie the people he the enemy

26:01

of american people he's al qaeda

26:03

and justices his the had to be had

26:05

are some cracks i know idea set

26:07

up the court judge scoreless in the chambers's have

26:09

you seen this was gonna say no he

26:12

, you feel intimidated scared

26:14

to nuke and sentiments know it's

26:16

the usual wing nuts so the justice

26:19

department we took a break for four hours in the

26:21

judge ordered the justice department to go around

26:23

the neighborhoods to make sure these leaflets

26:25

were taken down so as not to prejudice the potential

26:27

jury panel

26:29

a lot of juri said during their case i can

26:31

be fair i can't be

26:34

but when you're dealing with a case like that

26:36

it's it's as an enormous push up here

26:41

lawyers for suleiman obligate

26:43

argue that the evidence in this case amounted

26:45

to little more than words and association

26:48

that was enough to convict him on all the

26:50

government's charges the trial

26:52

wrapped up in under three week with

26:54

little fanfare and little disruption

26:57

to this neighborhood just blocks away

26:59

from where the world trade centers once

27:09

you are called have a point term the

27:11

most heated lawyer in new york a

27:13

man in america and were yeah

27:17

that hyperbole or

27:19

i don't know i mean i'd i

27:22

especially post nine eleven

27:25

oh yeah

27:26

oh yeah

27:28

eventually the hcl you

27:30

who the set of a constitutional right the national

27:32

lawyers guild other groups began

27:34

to get involved and muslim communities

27:36

and surveillance and observations in immigration

27:39

cases in socal terrorism cases in guantanamo

27:42

but of the first two three years post nine

27:44

eleven when no one was doing this stuff not only

27:46

was i doing this stuff but i was a million

27:48

fox t v and cnn t

27:50

v and television that's because

27:52

i felt obligated

27:54

the because it was so one sided because

27:56

there were tens of thousands of young muslim

27:58

women and men in this country

27:59

felt alienated an isolated and

28:02

frightened and intimidated and disempowered

28:04

and i felt obligated say know it's gonna be

28:06

okay so there was a period where

28:09

at airports people would come

28:11

up and spit at me people

28:13

with threatened me i'd be in the bathroom

28:15

and some for rural poor the paper at me

28:19

i've had it on airplanes were

28:22

people come up in or knox's as hell you're

28:24

an asshole cohen good ominous

28:27

right thank you

28:28

you want to see mine can i see yours

28:30

and they expect me to like

28:33

come up and fight back and slide

28:37

the dot

28:38

the friend can i like put my headphones

28:41

on and have some food

28:42

i'm not going to go to war over that stuff

28:47

i got a call in the middle of the night

28:49

literally the

28:52

day after nine eleven two days after

28:54

nine eleven i was awakened in the middle of night spy

28:56

reporter from the daily news mr

29:00

cohen to sound so great how i y u

29:02

waking me up well you represent

29:04

terrorists i couldn't resist i represent

29:07

freedom fighters nine represent wall street footing

29:09

with this guy now let's be serious yeah

29:11

what do you think about nine eleven tarp

29:14

watch people covered in ash walk

29:16

up and down my neighbors or the buildings clapper star

29:18

bizarre but what is your people

29:21

my people

29:22

that's news to me what do you think about those

29:24

horrible so he said well it's

29:26

been lot i said i will i wouldn't know i

29:29

haven't seen osama since the weekend the plane goes

29:32

young , and yet i was sucking with any

29:34

was fucking with me a civil

29:36

war would you represent been like represent been

29:38

no

29:40

i should i would deal with been lot in the way i would

29:42

any other well political client

29:45

i'd sit down and talk to my decide

29:47

to someone i could spend umpteenth thousands

29:49

of hours with the something what's politically

29:51

good deal where do i personally could deal with i

29:54

said but besides i really don't think bin laden

29:56

is due process sort of guy i

29:58

doubt is gonna walk into

30:01

his own volition or not in the united states

30:03

thank you the by the next day

30:05

the daily news second page cohen

30:07

, he would represent been lauded as a great hero

30:10

with my picture their their now

30:12

this never happened this discussion but that

30:15

have some fun so

30:17

i got ah my god emails

30:20

and phone calls and screaming

30:22

matches your mother fucker your killed

30:24

our people killed get people from

30:26

texas get kansas

30:29

from ohio who have hated new

30:31

york their entire fucking

30:32

i've hated new yorkers hated new york

30:34

city hate jews

30:36

hate the east coast i would never

30:38

go there is full of arrogant mother fucking piece of

30:40

the base trump space these days calling

30:43

hauntings oh my god these wonderful

30:45

as like what the fuck are you talking about you hate us

30:47

new yorkers forever

30:55

the and , a quick death and

30:57

bridge when it's a

30:59

good food rancor

31:02

yeah little

31:04

, got to good teachers yeah advocates

31:06

said it's trends quiche quiche

31:09

this was several the mosque others

31:12

such as they're known for

31:14

it

31:23

what did i wanted to touch on

31:26

your conviction for tax evasion it's not

31:28

tax evasion

31:30

impeding the irish it was the only prosecution

31:32

for impeding the irish and thirty years

31:34

by the department of justice it

31:36

, out with a fight that i have with the government

31:39

over oh fact the officer financial asset control

31:42

it started out with abu marzouk because

31:45

we had a bunch of contributors at one of the donate

31:47

money to both the defense team to

31:49

defense fund and expenses one

31:52

of the do it but were afraid that they would be designated

31:54

as terrorists his supporters of terrorists

31:57

i decided became a point in time that almost

31:59

all

31:59

the cases political cases i was doing them at least

32:02

i wanna do pro bono from that point

32:04

that would get third parties that weren't find

32:06

designated terrorist organizations are i would have

32:09

stay would pay for travel pay for expenses

32:12

ah but i would not do anything

32:14

get paid a penny by foreign

32:16

designated terrorist organizations are individuals

32:19

oh fact reached out when when they say gotta get a license

32:21

for the speed

32:24

telling me because i represent someone

32:27

that's enough to go or an individual

32:29

have to get a license as none

32:31

of the statute is when getting money

32:34

during his for free yes

32:39

then we think on to interpretation whether

32:41

it's publicity or the public relations weather

32:44

like they're dating their daughter during their

32:46

products you're getting something in exchange elections

32:52

nigel

32:54

the want to go to court and put me on trial because i'm

32:56

representing a fios for food

32:59

got it

33:02

this investigation went on for ten years

33:04

and went nowhere they eventually walked away

33:07

so the iris gets involved

33:10

they take the position we

33:12

know you cheated us we

33:14

can't figure out how we can't figure out

33:16

why we can't figure out how much

33:19

but we note so it really

33:21

gets heated it heated it it to years

33:23

three years the subpoenas as motion to quash

33:26

they start interfering with my clients

33:28

they start threatening to bring my family for microsoft's

33:30

the into this i just decided the endless

33:34

the unfinished on us i

33:37

made a decision that i was not gonna spend

33:39

the next twenty years of my life without

33:42

a law license an appellate courts

33:44

in trial courts in and out

33:46

as i knew other lawyers i

33:49

wouldn't do it

33:50

and ends up taking a plea to impeding the iris

33:53

and and and why do you believe that the that

33:55

this is all politically motivated other

33:58

than the fact that i what started

34:01

out as an investigation for material

34:03

support of terrorism because of my telling us

34:05

government the f b i the federal

34:08

prosecutors all over the contrary to

34:10

some degree the cia or the da

34:12

and everyone else go fuck yourself i can't imagine

34:15

why

34:18

two thousand and fourteen the last time i was in gaza

34:21

it was another six months nine months before i went to

34:23

prison people in gaza ask me

34:25

to stay they said will give you political side

34:28

one of us you're here

34:30

your homes is bullshit about impeding the i

34:32

said no

34:34

not because it wasn't attractive

34:37

not because i don't have a sense of identity community

34:39

feel in love with palestinians and

34:41

the resistance but because docking

34:44

is really bombs is not where i make a difference

34:47

where i make a difference is throwing my

34:49

bombs in the west and

34:51

my bomb sometime during the court room sometimes

34:54

you're in a conference sometimes while speaking

34:57

i've no doubt that the us government would have

34:59

preferred that i'd state and gossip i've no doubt

35:01

that israel would have assassinated meet five times over

35:03

or yeah conehead a tank in his house

35:06

their the houses go the

35:09

funny part of it is i met with the regional

35:11

director of the irish the treasury department

35:13

in a bid as towards the end of this

35:16

they spent years looking

35:18

for my money offshore looking

35:21

for the hidden assets looking

35:23

for the land looking for the

35:24

now looking for the panama papers

35:27

and she eventually

35:29

it to me she said

35:30

the reason i this there

35:33

no

35:34

i mean you've really like done this stuff for

35:37

free

35:38

the middle east closely

35:41

this is why

35:43

then you

35:43

the

35:45

what

35:49

a more people say there's

35:52

no cause for try

35:55

accept the third cause of this

35:57

one they call it comes

35:59

as a young activists as a young

36:02

kid growing up one of my heroes and he's been dead

36:04

already fifty sixty years was clients down

36:07

but , a matter of fact that a cause

36:09

for everything in this world world

36:12

there's no way to remove the remove god

36:14

they're moving god com offer

36:17

[unk] cutting poop as a defender of

36:19

labor union back in the really

36:21

brutal days of labor organizing in the

36:23

nineteen eighties i'm wearing

36:25

defended some of the most notorious a

36:28

labor organizers they were viewed by of

36:30

the business leaders of virtual terrace

36:33

one of them at blown up the governor of idaho

36:36

and clarence darrow went in and and defended

36:38

him in got him defended him ,

36:40

of got and poverty

36:44

and garage aren't

36:46

a proud he was a master

36:48

of making compelling argument

36:51

of why this person whether

36:54

or not he'd blow up the governor

36:57

of idaho her

36:59

could be set free

37:01

around these things

37:04

almost , come

37:06

back back

37:09

people and jail

37:13

he was anything an agnostic and

37:15

of a mean as son of a bitch

37:18

and when he was dying someone

37:20

him for his final biography was asked by

37:22

the biographies you had to do it all over again

37:24

what would you do just

37:31

there is answer was

37:33

they would

37:35

that i wouldn't do it differently i wouldn't

37:37

do it again

37:41

dad died two days later

37:46

it's been a long journey

37:47

now the end is near of

37:49

state my case of woods i'm certain

37:52

there are lots of big cases little cases

37:54

big cases

37:55

what i had to do i saw through without

37:57

exemption if i had to do over again

38:00

thanks

38:02

i would

38:06

very clarity

38:56

that's it for loving radio this episode

38:58

was produced by know i'm all spend robin

39:00

amer filled them a husky and steven

39:02

jackson who offered at the sound design it

39:05

, music by josiah steinbrueck

39:08

oliver coats lucretia adult

39:10

and amelie sprague the final song

39:12

you're listening to now is from jeffrey lewis

39:15

lewis links to all the music with you turn on the show

39:17

please visit our website love and radio

39:19

dot org where you can also sign up for

39:21

our mailing our if you want to

39:23

support the production of future episodes of

39:25

love and radio please consider

39:28

donating at love and radio dot

39:30

org radio donate i'm

39:33

nicholas slash or coke and if you

39:35

haven't already be sure to check out the secrets

39:37

hotline podcast which is now

39:39

publishing brand new episodes weekly

39:42

available wherever brand to audio

39:44

radio

41:07

i think it one hundred and sixty

41:10

four hundred and forty cases on death row

41:12

couldn't we uphold and low

41:14

the never lost one

41:16

never

41:18

got indicted one day for

41:20

bribing a jury in one of the death penalty

41:22

cases he did a juror bribing teacher

41:25

and he got acquainted

41:27

the the case a try

41:29

and he did

41:30

a

41:32

did

41:37

i'm also going to be recording