0:02

This is doctor Lisa Marie Bobby, and

0:04

you're listening to the Love, Happiness, and

0:06

Success podcast. Spirituality

0:13

can add depth and purpose

0:15

to life, but The belief

0:17

systems we're raised in don't always

0:19

feel right for us as adults and

0:22

not all religious experience are

0:24

positive. Some are even traumatic.

0:27

Today, we're talking about how you can

0:29

cultivate healthy spirituality, heal

0:33

from toxic religious experiences,

0:36

and build a belief system that is an

0:38

alignment with your true values.

0:59

This beautiful haunting

1:02

music that we're listening to together right

1:04

now is from the

1:06

band, Janet, and

1:08

the song is called collateral

1:11

vientos. I

1:13

am not fully sure what they

1:15

are singing, but I can

1:17

read you a little bit about this band,

1:20

and you'll get the idea. And this

1:22

is from their band campaign, which

1:24

is RKJVK.

1:28

Dot bancam dot com. RKJVK

1:32

dot bancam dot com. And

1:37

This is a Swiss singer

1:39

songwriter whose music is

1:41

an expression of gratitude for

1:43

life and nature. Colatro

1:46

Viento speaks of four winds

1:48

that come from the mountains, the ocean,

1:50

the desert, and the forest. Each

1:53

one bringing its unique quality.

1:57

What a lovely concept to

1:59

launch our discussion of

2:01

healthy spirituality today?

2:05

For many, spirituality can be a

2:07

source of comfort, connection, and

2:09

community. It can help us make

2:11

sense of the world find peace and

2:13

acceptance after loss and

2:16

feel connected to something that's bigger than

2:18

us. But for some, religion

2:21

is fraud and understandably so,

2:23

even thinking about spirituality can

2:25

bring up painful memories and

2:28

harmful messages that may be difficult

2:30

to completely shake off even if

2:32

you really, really want to. You

2:35

know, it's true that some people even have

2:37

trauma from their experiences with

2:39

religion, and the residue of

2:41

that trauma can affect them for the rest

2:43

of their lives. And make it difficult

2:46

to cultivate a healthy belief

2:49

system. So every one

2:51

of us has this never ending quest

2:53

to make meaning of our experiences. A

2:56

spiritual practice or religious belief

2:58

system can be a huge part of how

3:00

we do that. But if we've had painful

3:02

or traumatic experiences with religion, it

3:04

can be difficult to have a relationship with

3:06

spirituality that feels healthy and

3:08

authentic for you. Furthermore,

3:12

another barrier is that many of us,

3:14

I would say, most of us first

3:16

learn about religion or belief systems

3:19

as children when we are told

3:21

what to believe essentially. We are handed

3:23

a playbook around it. Here's here's

3:25

what we believe. That sometimes isn't

3:28

congruent for us as adults.

3:30

So there's a lot here.

3:33

If you are exploring your own spirituality

3:36

or unpacking some bad experiences tied

3:38

to religion, this episode of the podcast

3:41

is for you. Even if you

3:43

are a die hard atheist or

3:45

an agnostic, I think you'll find

3:47

a lot of useful information here. So

3:49

we're gonna be talking about lot how

3:51

you can develop your own

3:54

intrinsic and authentic feeling belief

3:56

system in a healthy way. Also,

3:58

how you can recover from negative

4:01

religious experiences and

4:03

decide for yourself if you'd like to engage

4:05

with a spiritual practice going forward.

4:07

So my guest today is someone

4:09

who knows a lot about this

4:12

topic. My colleague, Jennifer.

4:14

Jennifer is a marriage and family

4:16

therapist on our team here at growing self.

4:19

And she is also an ordained

4:21

pastor who has a lot of experience

4:24

in kind of the the space in between.

4:27

More conventional psychotherapy, couples

4:30

in family therapy, but also spiritual

4:33

counseling. And so I thought that she was the perfect

4:35

person to come and speak with us because

4:38

she's helped so many people explore big

4:40

life questions. Like, who am I? What

4:42

do I believe? And today, she's here

4:44

to share her wisdom and guidance with you. So

4:47

thank you, Jennifer. Thank you, Lisa,

4:49

for having me today. Yeah. This

4:51

is great. You know, such an important

4:54

topic. I mean, even if I was

4:56

just, you know, thinking about our our little

4:58

introduction, you know, for for

5:00

many people, spirituality

5:03

is just such an important part

5:06

of life. And as I was preparing,

5:08

you know, for the is kinda doing a little bit more

5:10

reflecting on that. And, I

5:12

mean, for the the history

5:14

of humanity really, I

5:16

mean, Indigenous

5:19

cultures, Shamanistic cultures, I

5:21

mean, in every sort of stage and

5:23

form of the human experience, there

5:25

have been belief systems and

5:28

practices that, you know,

5:30

humans are trying to stay connected

5:33

to the divine somehow And,

5:36

you know, I know that we also understand

5:38

now that having a healthy belief system

5:40

can be really an important part of

5:43

just overall wellness,

5:45

like mental emotional, relational

5:47

wellness. And so this is a

5:50

huge question and and I don't know if this

5:52

is a fair one to spring on you, like, or right off

5:54

the bat for a conversation. But mean,

5:57

do you have any thoughts or opinions

5:59

about why spirituality

6:02

is seems like it's such an important

6:05

thing for humans in general.

6:08

That is a great question.

6:09

I think go. Actually,

6:13

I think it is very

6:15

important because Often

6:18

as humans, we want to think that there is something

6:20

bigger than ourselves, that there is

6:22

a grand or a place or a plan

6:24

to why we're here on earth

6:27

and to feel like we connect

6:30

to a higher being

6:32

or nature, because spirituality

6:34

can be so many different things of of connecting.

6:38

What is this purpose? And

6:40

a life without purpose can

6:43

often feel like we're just floating along. So

6:45

I just think it's a human nature

6:48

of wanting to connect with something, greater

6:50

than our bigger than

6:51

ourselves. Mhmm. That makes

6:53

a lot of sense, you know, like without having

6:55

that sense of connection or

6:58

being able to make meaning or purpose.

7:00

And I also just want to say clearly that

7:03

that people can and do find meaning

7:05

in life and find purpose and connection

7:07

in in other ways, which are completely

7:10

valid and and very appropriate.

7:13

But, again, there's this there's this human thing

7:15

about where, you know, we we tend

7:18

to to seek that that connection

7:20

with some kind of

7:21

divine. And and thank you for for talking about,

7:23

you know, why? That might be?

7:25

Well, Emma, yeah. So we just

7:27

in sometimes, we wanna know where where we come

7:29

from. Like, is there stuff

7:31

before? Is there stuff after her?

7:33

And all of that can be interconnected

7:35

with that search meeting.

7:38

Definitely. Yeah. And

7:40

you know, I'm feeling that I should probably

7:42

say before we go to go further

7:45

here that, you know, just

7:47

for our for our listeners so that they understand.

7:50

I think also the intention of our conversation

7:52

today is to be very, very inclusive.

7:55

And while we will be talking about

7:57

spirituality. Hopefully,

7:59

we will be talking about it in all of its

8:01

different forms and certainly not advocating

8:04

any form of belief system over

8:06

the other. And also, you know, making

8:08

space for the absence of a belief system

8:10

and how people can find, you know, that meaning and

8:13

purpose in other ways or forms,

8:15

again, that's completely fine

8:17

too. So just so our listeners no.

8:19

Because I I think it's important. I think some people

8:22

I mean, this is terrible, and it and it goes back into

8:24

that other part of, you know, what we're gonna be talking

8:26

about today is, like, can sometimes

8:28

feel like belief systems are

8:30

are pushed on them or if they know that somebody

8:33

is spiritual or or person who

8:35

practices a certain face,

8:37

you know, there's this almost, like,

8:40

anticipatory defensiveness about,

8:43

like, I don't know because,

8:45

you know, they may be, like, feel judged,

8:48

I

8:48

guess, or or think

8:49

pressured

8:50

or great. Do you know what I'm talking about? Yes.

8:52

I that billing of being judged, like, oh,

8:54

I can't talk to them about anything because they

8:56

have this belief system, and I believe something

8:59

different. And so many people when

9:01

they hold a certain title or a certain

9:04

form of belief. They

9:07

don't know how to move forward. And because they've

9:10

been ashamed. So if we're gonna go back

9:12

to the childhood trauma of some

9:15

of what spirituality or religion

9:17

can, bring to people is they've been

9:19

ashamed. They've been guilted that if they don't believe

9:21

a certain way or act a certain way,

9:23

then there's

9:26

gonna be these huge repercussions to

9:28

them, or also

9:31

might have been shunned depending on

9:33

that religious background of

9:35

what it may be. And so

9:38

so many times, people have been hurt from

9:40

that. And so if someone's carrying along the

9:42

title, that corresponds to

9:45

place the veverimer from their childhood or

9:47

from growing up or even in their twenties or

9:50

thirties. But it can also

9:52

bring back those memories or make

9:55

them feel that they're gonna judged or

9:57

looked at differently or that

10:00

there's prejudice against them for win

10:02

differently than others.

10:03

Yeah. Yeah. That's a really good

10:05

point that even it can be

10:07

fraud. I mean, even even interacting

10:10

with another person that, you know, you

10:12

sense maybe different for you in that regard

10:14

and understandably so. So

10:16

what are things and that think

10:19

it would be helpful to talk about

10:21

just to kind of set set the stage

10:23

for everything else. You know, I

10:26

mean, it seems it seems to me

10:28

that for many, you know,

10:30

if not most people, depending

10:33

on the family you come from, but you

10:35

are almost indoctrinated

10:38

into a belief system or a faith

10:40

system of of one kind or another.

10:42

You know, starting as a very young child,

10:44

I know in the the Christian tradition, there

10:46

is Sunday school, and and certainly,

10:49

you know, many other faith traditions, like start

10:51

with with early education

10:54

and, you know, you know, your parents are

10:56

teaching you this and if you're going to church

10:58

and there's all the stuff that is reinforced Can

11:01

you say a little bit more about what you've

11:03

seen as being, you know, helpful

11:06

for that that system of raising

11:08

kids in a faith? And And also, you know,

11:10

what have you seen as a therapist that

11:14

is unhelpful for people,

11:16

you know, as adults who

11:18

may grow and evolve in different

11:20

ways where that that early

11:22

teaching isn't congruent for

11:24

them. And what what have you seen with that over

11:26

your your career. Well, I'll

11:28

start definitely with helpful, and then we'll

11:30

move into some of the ramifications.

11:33

But helpful, I

11:35

find that a lot of people claim to what

11:37

they've known from growing up because

11:40

it is a safe base. It's

11:42

something they can hold on to.

11:45

It stores in it different

11:48

values or morals. Are

11:50

applications to that child growing

11:53

up, something to help them understand

11:55

the difference between right or wrong through stories

11:57

to the application of whatever

11:59

their belief system may be. And

12:02

people often hold on to it because

12:04

that's what they know. A lot of

12:06

times, and this is a very side

12:08

note, but people often spend

12:11

five to ten miles of where they've

12:14

grown up. And it

12:16

is be it's happening a little bit more

12:18

now, but you often stay to what

12:20

you're rooted to and what you know. And

12:22

so that often happens with religion

12:25

and spirituality as well. But

12:28

sometimes the things that are done in the name of

12:30

religion or spirituality can actually

12:33

be very harmful because as you're

12:35

going up, you're taught a certain

12:37

belief that you are to act this

12:39

way. And if you don't act this way, then this

12:41

like I said, this will be the ramifications. When

12:44

you do that, it leads to these

12:47

feelings of shame and guilt.

12:50

Anger because you don't know how to express

12:52

yourself because if you do something differently,

12:55

then your parents are going to treat you differently

12:58

or tell you that you are

13:01

simple or wrong whatever word they might use

13:03

in that and

13:05

you bring that into adulthood. And

13:09

if you haven't dealt with that, you

13:12

still have these feelings of shame

13:14

or guilt, and you may go up into

13:17

addictions. I've seen that happen many

13:19

times. Where people will drink

13:22

quite a bit or take drugs to try to get

13:25

over those feelings and the continue

13:27

to those voices that continue to roll

13:29

around in their heads from growing up

13:32

because if I do this, then this is what's gonna

13:34

happen. And and they're stuck somewhere in between

13:36

because they don't necessarily believe the same things.

13:38

They might have a better understanding of

13:41

what a higher power might be

13:43

or what a spiritual

13:45

life is and what their connection

13:48

to whether it's a greater

13:50

power forward. Believing

13:52

that there is no greater power

13:54

and then writing through those different

13:56

emotions that guilt and shame those and anger

13:58

are just a few, but those are very

14:01

dominant. I see with

14:03

clients who have had trauma

14:08

experience for the things that

14:10

have been done in the name of language. I

14:12

know it's even just thinking back to just some,

14:14

like, because so much

14:16

trust is put into religion

14:20

or the different spiritual centers that

14:22

they might have attended. Just

14:25

how sometimes even the people within

14:27

those systems have hurt. Some

14:29

of my clients as are going into

14:31

adulthood that they didn't feel they were comfortable

14:33

enough to tell their parents what would happen,

14:36

whether they were changed or whether

14:38

they were hurt or views

14:40

or any of those different

14:42

things. But there's a lot that can come

14:45

out of Yeah. No. Absolutely.

14:47

I I mean, just to share, I

14:50

I mean, you know, not not a practicing Catholic

14:53

nor nor honestly was my childhood

14:55

kind of monowithically Catholic.

14:57

Like, we were air quote, Catholic. We went to

14:59

church and I did, like, the early you know,

15:01

the the classes and all the things. But

15:04

in reality, looking

15:06

back, my mom was very much more

15:09

excited about, like, almost new age belief

15:11

systems. And so, like, I I was exposed

15:13

to all kinds of of things growing

15:15

up. But you

15:17

know, with with that exposure

15:20

to to Catholicism and, you know,

15:22

and also just the knowledge of

15:24

the horrible things that have been

15:27

done in that particular faith,

15:29

I think, largely due to this like

15:31

power hierarchy that you're discussing. I

15:34

mean, child abuse and

15:36

just the, like, the worst things. But

15:38

I think that it's, you know,

15:40

with some of the the belief systems, I think

15:42

it can not anything about

15:45

the the belief systems themselves or

15:47

the spiritual practice, but the the

15:49

social systems that get built around

15:52

this. You know, very hierarchical, and

15:54

there's a lot of power structures. Also

15:56

often kind of, you know, patriarchal, male

15:59

dominated, But I think too,

16:02

and again, this is sort of my experience as

16:04

an observer. It can also lead

16:06

to this, like, black and white,

16:08

white, and wrong thinking style

16:11

that gets applied to lot of different

16:13

situations. And so if you have

16:16

a power structure and also there's

16:19

a right way and a wrong way, and I'm gonna tell you what

16:21

that is. Like, it it's very easy to

16:23

create feelings of shame, anxiety,

16:25

fear, guilt. Rejection, especially

16:29

in children who are so vulnerable

16:32

to I

16:32

mean, they're still like developing their little sense

16:34

of self and Mhmm. Right.

16:36

Because it doesn't give them a lot of

16:38

opportunity to explore the world or to understand

16:41

your place within it because

16:43

of being told this is how it is. And

16:46

if you are to believe outside of this system,

16:48

this box, then you're

16:50

wrong. And how hard

16:53

is that for our child who's coming into their own

16:55

who sees themselves as different

16:59

than where their parents

17:01

are coming from. And

17:03

this is coming out more and more in so

17:05

many different aspects as

17:09

just what the changes I see.

17:12

And that twenty

17:15

twenties, I guess, you would say. It's just that

17:17

-- Mhmm. -- they're finding more

17:19

of a voice. And I think it's really

17:21

important or children to be able

17:23

to say, this is my preferred pronoun,

17:25

or this is my who I am

17:27

or whatever it may be. It's just

17:30

really important to meet people where they're at and

17:32

I think that sometimes religion

17:35

gets stuck or And

17:38

these are the actions and the plans

17:40

that we made, and this

17:42

is how it is, and this is

17:44

doing it for two hundred years or whatever,

17:47

and this is how it should go. And

17:50

we'll get her not by the belief

17:52

system, like you said, not by

17:55

the structure that has

17:57

been imposed by whatever

18:00

one of those religious leaders or whatever

18:02

sect it may be. Yeah.

18:05

Yeah. I won't get that. No.

18:07

That's that's helpful. And and

18:09

it's interesting. I think what's what's coming up

18:11

for me right now, if I'm thinking about

18:14

with adolescents in particular,

18:16

you know. So, like, eleven

18:18

to eighteen year olds and

18:20

and, you know, still beyond. Like, that

18:23

the work of adolescents in

18:25

many ways is like trying on

18:28

different identities and experimenting with

18:32

who am I? And maybe, you

18:34

know, one year I'm going to be a

18:36

jock on the basketball team, but another and

18:39

I make some new friends and I'm growing out

18:41

my hair and I'm dying at blue and, you know, like,

18:43

oh, like, that that's that's what you're supposed

18:45

to do as an adolescent to, like, just

18:47

try on almost different person

18:50

suits as you figure out your your waving

18:52

and and I could see how potentially

18:54

for an adolescent who's growing up

18:56

in a very kind of structured, clear, like,

18:59

no, this is the only way to be. Police system,

19:01

it would kind of inhibit a lot of

19:03

development, you know, that developmental process

19:06

Right. Well, and then, you know, as you speak about sex adolescence,

19:09

think about sexuality. Yeah. I think about,

19:11

oh, yeah. How are you been to their own?

19:13

I wasn't even thinking about that. Yeah. Because

19:17

it reminds me I young

19:19

man, I grew up. What? And I grew up

19:22

in Texas in the deep south in the bible

19:24

belt. And and

19:26

everything was very black and white. You you

19:28

do this or you do that. And And

19:32

from a young age, he

19:34

knew that he he was gay.

19:36

And how

19:38

he was shunned, how he was treated

19:41

by people

19:43

around him. I always broke my heart and

19:46

I think number one, we were taught to love. We were

19:48

to love others, above all

19:50

else. And what does that

19:52

matter? In the long run, like in the

19:54

in the grand scheme of things. If

19:57

he's attracted to men or to

19:59

women, and That's how you're

20:01

treated. And I'm I'm talking about nineteen nineties

20:04

here at LA eighties.

20:06

But it

20:08

has always stayed with

20:10

me because, like

20:13

I said, the things that have been done in the name of

20:15

religion. Have can

20:17

hurt so many people on I really think about

20:19

adolescent time when you're coming into your own, trying

20:22

to figure out, what did you like?

20:24

Don't like who you wanna

20:26

be what group do you wanna

20:28

hang out with? What crowd owns

20:31

they're so they're so hard. As

20:34

so much is going on in your body during

20:36

that time. And then to be told that this

20:38

is only right and this is only wrong, but you

20:40

feel differently. What a

20:42

conundrum or a young

20:44

person. And I have seen

20:46

as a result my kids

20:49

not knowing what to do with all these emotions, cutting

20:51

themselves or harming themselves in different

20:54

ways. And

20:55

and I was saying, always goes to that extreme,

20:57

but it is such

20:59

a hard place to be and especially when

21:01

they don't feel there are as an adult voice

21:03

or other people around them they can talk

21:05

to. That can understand them. Yeah.

21:07

Fully. Yeah. 0II mean, suicide

21:10

because -- Yeah. -- like, because when when you really,

21:12

when you think about it, I mean, My

21:14

kid in that situation only has

21:16

two choices. Either it

21:18

can turn into shame and

21:20

self hatred right, about

21:22

being, like, internalizing all that

21:25

or a complete rejection

21:28

of the the faith the

21:30

community and also, you know, some of

21:32

their relationships. Like, it is a

21:34

terrible bind because to

21:36

choose themselves means I have to reject

21:39

everything and everybody else that I

21:41

love. Right? And and, like, thirteen,

21:44

you know? I mean, like, who who can do that?

21:46

Not at

21:46

that time to reach. So it's it's

21:48

really so hard. Yeah.

21:51

And they just wanna be accepted at pay age. They

21:53

just want somebody -- Oh, no. -- and a

21:55

whole bump to be with

21:56

them, whatever that means. Looks like.

21:58

So yes. So yeah.

22:01

I mean, certainly, you know, we've so we've been talking

22:03

about times and situations

22:06

where that kind of early exposure

22:10

or encouragement of around a certain belief

22:12

system can be have unintended

22:14

consequences, I think for kids and

22:16

adolescents in terms of their development, in terms

22:18

of their self esteem. But I'm also wondering

22:21

if you could speak to know,

22:23

a situation where maybe someone

22:25

did not have patently toxic

22:27

or harmful experiences, maybe they

22:29

grew up in an environment and they

22:31

would did the the things and went to the services

22:34

and everything was fine. And

22:36

only until their their later

22:38

life. I mean, I'm imagining you some somebody

22:40

in their later twenties or their thirties

22:43

began to feel Is

22:45

that really what I believe

22:48

or or think? You know, I mean,

22:50

have you ever seen it where somebody

22:53

kind of trucks along and sort of takes what they were

22:55

given until maybe a point in later

22:57

life where they I

23:00

don't know. Feel feel the need to explore

23:03

on their own for themselves. And,

23:07

you know, maybe they come back. To that

23:09

belief system that they were originally, you

23:11

know, raised in, but maybe

23:14

sometimes not. I mean, have

23:16

you I'm sure you've walked with people who are in that

23:18

crisis

23:19

of, like, who who am I? What do I believe?

23:21

And and maybe due to just go in different direction.

23:24

Well, one of the unique

23:26

jobs I have had in my life because I I

23:28

worked as a young adults pastor. So

23:31

I worked with a lot twenty somethings and

23:33

early thirty somethings who were trying

23:35

to figure it out on their own way from their

23:37

rental systems, trying to figure

23:40

out what does it look like

23:42

to happy. What does it look like to

23:44

be spiritual? And this

23:48

search for who they are in the midst

23:50

of this is is so difficult

23:52

and some of them were like, you

23:54

know what? I like this reassurance

23:56

that I'm not alone. I like that

23:58

there's somebody who is walking

24:01

alongside of me and I am never alone

24:03

in this world. But there are

24:05

others who are like, That

24:08

doesn't make a lot of sense. I

24:10

am taught in science or I'm taught

24:12

in these different forms, but

24:14

no. How could that possibly be?

24:17

And they they are starting to have a different

24:19

belief system, or they're like,

24:21

I really feel connected to

24:24

myself and find

24:26

calm and peace through meditation

24:28

or through nature or

24:30

other things. And maybe I don't

24:33

believe in the higher power,

24:35

whatever you want, all that being

24:38

that I believe that I

24:41

can't build peace and calm. And

24:43

so they they decide

24:45

that that is their form

24:48

of spirituality. And it's

24:50

not what their parents told them or how

24:53

I would. And so I think it's

24:55

pardon to come into your own. And

24:57

figuring it out and maybe looking at

25:00

different religions, what they teach.

25:02

I have to say when I was in grad school, it

25:04

was the most eye opening experience in my

25:06

life. Like I said, coming from the deep south.

25:08

And I hold out. I

25:11

was taught to just look at one religion,

25:13

and this is the one and only religion. But

25:16

when I got to to discover Buddhism,

25:19

Hinduism, Muslim

25:22

and the Quran, and beauty

25:26

and so many other world religions.

25:30

My eyes were completely open to

25:34

there's more than I was honk on up.

25:36

And it was just such a beautiful awakening

25:39

for me to discover own

25:41

faith was where that looks like.

25:44

And and I've seen that in

25:46

a lot of my clients. And just

25:48

this understanding of

25:51

our parents did the best they could

25:54

with what we knew and remembering

25:57

that and that there

25:59

are the other harmful sites where but I'm not

26:01

talking about that at this point, but that

26:06

It's okay to explore. It's okay to figure

26:08

out what is best for who you are

26:10

because your brain isn't fully developed

26:13

until your late twenties anyways. You

26:15

don't fully know who you are or what

26:17

you want and develop that

26:20

in that late twenties or late thirties, even

26:22

forties. For for some in the

26:24

fifties and sixties for some of the clients that I

26:26

have. We're constantly evolving.

26:29

And I think it's just important that

26:31

you give yourself the offer community

26:34

to seek it out. And if something doesn't feel

26:36

like it correlates to who you are, then

26:40

research, find I

26:43

what that fit is what makes you feel

26:45

connected, grounded is a word

26:47

I often use, and find

26:49

that connection piece. It

26:52

is a journey. That's awesome. Yeah. Oh,

26:54

definitely a journey. Well, that that, you know,

26:56

actually kind of brings us to one of my

26:58

other questions. You know, it had for

27:00

you, which is what what are some of

27:02

the, you know, strategies

27:05

or advice that you could give for

27:07

somebody who's in that or

27:09

maybe even just like wanting to

27:12

explore or sort of figure this for themselves

27:14

and I think I just heard a really big and important

27:16

one which is giving yourself permission

27:19

to explore read

27:21

read some different books. Check out some

27:24

different, you know,

27:26

services or or not

27:28

services. You know, I mean, just exposure

27:30

self to different ideas, different ways

27:32

of thinking, and just like give yourself

27:34

time and space to almost

27:36

like just try on different ideas and

27:38

see what feels right for

27:40

you. Is that what I'm hearing? That

27:43

is that is exactly what I'm saying.

27:45

And with this technical lot

27:47

technology age. We

27:50

have the opportunity to explore so

27:52

much more at such an easy

27:54

in such an easy way from whether

27:57

it was on some sort social media

27:59

or what have you? You're seeing

28:01

this is just to get a broader

28:03

under c and d income. What it is, you believe,

28:06

and finding other people who believe similar to you,

28:08

should not eliminate this. And

28:10

I think that's important that we're all in

28:12

a search to try to understand who

28:15

we are, where we come from,

28:17

where we wanna go, and it all looks different.

28:19

Everybody's churning. Yeah.

28:22

Well, and think I mean, I don't know

28:24

if you've had had this experience, but, like,

28:26

when I think of a people

28:28

that I've known or have worked with that

28:31

that want to do this work. One

28:33

of the biggest obstacles I

28:35

have sometimes found is particularly

28:38

for people who were raised

28:40

in very kind of specific and

28:43

almost dominant, you know, faith experiences

28:45

have just developed this cognitive style

28:49

of wanting to figure

28:51

out what is true. Like, there there

28:53

is a truth and it is

28:56

knowable And so then the

28:58

experimentation sort of turns into

29:01

I need to find out what the actual

29:03

truth is because maybe the truth that I

29:05

was raised in isn't the truth. There's

29:07

a different truth. And and I think what

29:09

I have kind of struggled with

29:11

in some ways as a counselor. Like, what have

29:14

blown some people's minds is that what

29:16

if there is not a

29:18

truth? Like, what if there are

29:21

infinite things that are all

29:23

simultaneously true all at the same time.

29:25

And, like, that idea, they're they're like,

29:28

watch you know, it can be a real

29:31

obstacle, but I think I just wanted to

29:33

say that out loud because, you know, if

29:35

you're sort of swapping one belief

29:37

system for than another. This is true.

29:39

It can create, like, a lot of anxiety. And also,

29:42

like, I don't know. Sort of make you feel like

29:44

you you have to

29:46

have it figured out. And

29:48

I don't know that that is actually a reasonable

29:50

expectation of

29:51

spirituality. I don't know. Maybe

29:53

you feel differently, but

29:55

I agree. I don't think you ever really need help because I

29:57

think given our different chapters of our life, it

29:59

looks different. And I think it looks different

30:01

and we hold it to friendly whether

30:04

we're closer to trying to

30:07

figure that out, or we push

30:09

it aside because there are other things that are

30:11

more dominant in our life at that time. But

30:14

journey. And I think it's really important to

30:16

go back. It's a journey. It doesn't always

30:18

look the same. And, earlier you were talking about

30:20

sort of the black and white thinking. And

30:23

all the time related to that. But what

30:25

I hear from you, from what you're saying, Lisa, is

30:27

that there's gray.

30:30

And one of the things I teach my clients

30:32

all the time is is

30:34

to kind of figure out what's right, what's wrong,

30:36

and I'm like, what if there

30:38

is no right or wrong? And

30:41

what if there is somewhere in the middle? Because

30:44

what one person is right and never

30:46

be some person might see as wrong. And

30:48

you are always constantly if you're

30:50

always measuring yourself against other people or what

30:52

other people think partly you're

30:55

constant and feel disappointed,

30:57

or a large word can be put

30:59

in there, or inks, or

31:02

have you. And so It's

31:05

just that acceptance of you, yourself,

31:08

your journey, where you're going, and

31:10

that it's not always going to look

31:12

the same. Just I

31:14

I talk this thing about personality and that

31:17

personality changes over time and

31:19

looks differently in different chapters of our life

31:21

and where might have taken us,

31:23

but it's very true about our spiritual

31:26

journey too. As we learn

31:28

more, as we grow and

31:31

have more wisdom as life

31:33

circumstances, how we've reacted

31:36

to those. There's so many things that

31:39

perpetuate our belief system

31:41

and where we come from. But

31:44

is it right and wrong? I

31:46

think there's gray. And

31:48

I don't think it's one way or

31:50

the other. And I think everybody has to come

31:52

to their own what that looks like.

31:56

For them. Five, it goes back to that

31:58

permission, permission to explore

32:00

and to figure out. What is

32:03

right for them and not what just

32:05

what they've been told is what

32:07

they should think. We can believe that, and that's

32:09

great, and that's wonderful, but you also

32:12

can explore and figure out if there are other

32:15

pieces that you believe need to be

32:17

part of it, or there's

32:19

a path that you have in your

32:20

mind. No. Definitely. And and, you know, the

32:23

the phrase that's coming to my mind right now is this

32:25

idea of, like, spiritual growth

32:28

and that it is a

32:30

journey we are always constantly evolving.

32:32

And, you know, really, I mean, maybe if

32:34

you do this exploration, and make

32:36

a full circle and and kind of come back to

32:38

your the belief system that you

32:40

inherited it. Even if you do

32:43

that, like, at that point, it will be authentically

32:45

your like, as opposed

32:48

to just, you know, feeling like you're going through the motions.

32:50

Like, you will have really

32:52

engaged with it. I mean, like, yes. This

32:54

is what I want to do as an

32:56

adult who is now giving

32:59

consent and, like, making a choice

33:02

to participate in it as opposed to

33:04

just like what what we do. So Okay.

33:08

I also wanna make sure though that we we

33:10

talk about another just facet

33:12

of this to get your thoughts.

33:15

So, you know, say we also have have

33:17

a listener with us today who

33:19

is really has

33:22

been traumatized. By

33:24

religion, by experiences

33:27

with with, you know, humans

33:29

kind of in the name of religion, or

33:32

exposed to things that felt very toxic

33:34

from them and would like

33:36

to recover, you know,

33:38

because what we also didn't

33:40

talk about is also the fact

33:42

that even as an adult, if you

33:44

want to make changes or sort

33:47

of pull away. I mean, it is not uncommon

33:49

at all for this ostracism, you

33:51

know, rejection of a community, like,

33:54

are, like, away with you. Right? Which

33:56

can be very traumatizing. And also,

34:00

I mean, show up in so many ways. So

34:02

this is a big topic, and I do not expect

34:04

you until I cover this full way in the next few

34:06

minutes. But do you have any words of

34:08

advice or guidance about what

34:12

where someone would even begin to

34:14

heal from this kind of trauma

34:16

because it's it's different kind

34:19

of

34:19

trauma. Right? Really is

34:21

because it brings about a lot of

34:24

shame on demand

34:26

that you can't talk with others because if you

34:29

have family members who are still part

34:31

of that vision

34:33

that sucked whatever it'd be, there

34:36

is the fear of the repercussions

34:38

of what might happen. But

34:40

I would have to say for them, I

34:42

think it's really important to find somebody they

34:45

can talk to. It's very helpful

34:47

whether that's a counselor or

34:49

therapist or I'd like go

34:51

to even. But starting

34:54

to understand

34:59

how it relates in their life.

35:01

And how is it affecting you today? So

35:03

just sort of understand the origin a little

35:06

bit. Is it a place to

35:08

start, but then it's

35:11

changing that that narrative within

35:13

you. Like, what are you doing? What

35:16

can you do to not

35:18

let it be a dominant voice in your in your

35:20

life anymore? That's where some of the real

35:22

work begins and that's where that having that healthcare

35:24

rational, be very beneficial. But

35:27

it is where you

35:31

start to explore what

35:33

voices, what stories do

35:35

you want dominant in your head? What is it

35:37

that you want

35:40

to be able to move forward. What does it that

35:42

you need that want? To be

35:44

able to move forward in a healthy way? What does

35:46

it that you need to be thinking? And

35:49

starting to add those

35:51

things into your line. Starting to

35:56

figure out what that is because oftentimes,

35:58

when we have been in such a traumatic experience,

36:02

we don't feel safe anymore, you know, feel safe

36:04

we do with those without with religion

36:07

itself with so many

36:09

pieces of ourselves because we can't believe we

36:11

were put in such a situation or what happened.

36:14

Or that it still affected me today as an

36:16

adult. But it

36:18

goes bad to making that peace

36:21

with yourself. And then working through

36:23

the trauma of what happened? Howard Bauchner:

36:26

Yeah, no, totally to to, you know,

36:28

first of all, find a trustworthy

36:30

partner to be able to do this important

36:32

work. And then again, you know, it's there's

36:35

there's a process. There is journey of healing

36:37

with a goal of I mean,

36:39

just what you like, feeling safe. Because

36:41

that's a thing about traumas that people don't

36:44

feel safe, like, in the world or with

36:46

others and so to find that sense of inner

36:48

peace But, you know, I feel like we should also

36:50

talk about about this in our conversation

36:53

too is because there there can be such

36:55

a a barrier

36:57

and also like

37:00

the possibility of having

37:02

more harm done by

37:04

you know, encountering some of the darkness

37:07

that is present in our profession.

37:09

Right? I mean, you know, the idea of therapy

37:11

and personal growth work is sort of has has

37:13

a halo around it right now. Like, people are,

37:16

yes, therapy. And what also

37:18

happens, you know, not infrequently

37:20

in practice, which is very damaging

37:23

and not okay is for,

37:25

you know, the the average consumer

37:27

or somebody who's saying like, yes, I wanna do this

37:29

work. Will reach out to help for a

37:31

therapist and that

37:33

therapist is maybe

37:35

not I mean,

37:37

who knows what's going on there, but it's not uncommon

37:40

at all to connect with a

37:42

professional counselor who is

37:44

strongly entrenched in a belief

37:46

system and who wants

37:48

to do Christian counseling or

37:50

whatever. And that so some,

37:53

you know, an unsuspecting person walking

37:55

in the door is now sitting with,

37:57

you know, a counselor who is very

37:59

eager to do Christian counseling because that's

38:01

what they do. And and I I

38:03

know that there is a a beautiful space

38:06

for faith based counseling. It can be

38:08

so helpful but there there

38:10

needs to be consent. It needs to

38:12

be somebody signing

38:15

up to do that and seeking

38:17

out Christian counselor and having

38:19

both understanding on both sides. Like,

38:21

this is why we're here because I I think

38:23

what happens a lot in practice is that that

38:25

isn't disclosed. And it can happen

38:27

with Christian Castle. I have also had experiences

38:30

with therapists who were briefly on

38:33

our team here at growing self, Jennifer, not

38:35

long. You know, who a client

38:37

would walk through the door and have anxiety

38:39

and this person would be very into, you

38:42

know, new AG belief systems and be like,

38:44

You know what? Let's do some hypnosis

38:46

and I'm going to regress you to a past

38:49

life and like, you know,

38:51

oh, yes, you were you were shot by a

38:53

Nazi firing squad in nineteen forty

38:55

four. And so that is really the source

38:57

of your anxiety, and so we need to talk about that.

38:59

I mean, like, very weird

39:01

stuff. It can happen just in so many

39:03

ways, but there can, you know, there is

39:06

no regulation around what therapists

39:08

actually do behind the

39:11

closed door. And if they want to

39:13

bring belief systems into it that are

39:15

meaningful to them, meaning the therapist,

39:17

they can and they do in a way

39:19

that is not helpful or productive to

39:21

somebody who isn't wanting

39:24

that experience I

39:26

mean, it's a real issue and sorry.

39:28

I'm, like, I'm I'm officially on a rant now,

39:30

but, like, you know, I have another a

39:33

person going through a a terrible

39:35

experience, a terrible loss, and

39:38

she has experienced spiritual

39:41

trauma in her life. And at this

39:43

time, is really and to

39:45

feel safe. She needs to be in, you

39:48

know, situations where

39:50

there is not an overt kind of spiritual

39:52

message or expectation. And so

39:54

in going through this difficult life experience, when

39:56

she did reach out for help, it was

39:59

always going into a a

40:01

face direction with with support groups,

40:03

with counselors, and it feels

40:05

like she can't get can't get

40:08

help without having to

40:10

be re traumatized essentially. I

40:12

mean, and I know that that is not something

40:15

that you do and that many, I think, well

40:18

trained and ethical people

40:20

who are counselors and also have

40:22

a certain face background won't do any

40:24

of that. You know, there's lot of of

40:26

ethics and boundaries that need to be there. But

40:28

I mean, do you have any thoughts about, like,

40:31

why does that happen so commonly? Or or

40:33

like, what people can do about

40:35

it? Like, is there a way to check

40:37

it out ahead of time? I I don't know. This

40:39

is well, that is part of

40:41

researching your fear. Or -- Mhmm.

40:45

-- to really looking into their

40:47

biography where they come from and

40:49

doing that. But one of the things to

40:51

really look for when they're doing

40:53

the assessment. How do they address it? How

40:55

do they talk about your spiritual life?

40:57

Like, Do they ask you about

40:59

it? Do they ask if you want anything included

41:02

or not? And if they weren't asking

41:04

you those questions, you might be blindsided.

41:07

So just really important to have

41:09

a really good assessment

41:11

as you're coming into therapy, but also

41:14

and

41:14

this goes back to permission. If

41:16

a therapist starts to go in

41:19

a direction that feels uncomfortable with

41:21

you or your belief system, another

41:23

therapist. You don't need to continue

41:25

with them. And so many times, and this is why I see

41:27

it happen a lot. They continue on with that therapist.

41:30

And then problem becomes more

41:32

and more and more and

41:34

they don't even know how to get out of it because they're

41:37

put into a similar system or cycle.

41:39

That they were or even with family members,

41:41

but now that is re traumatized

41:44

with a therapist. And so

41:46

gave yourself permission to not stay with the therapist

41:48

if it's not a right connection. And

41:52

to look for a look at the biographies, that

41:54

one, look more into

41:56

who they are. But we went

41:59

and give them those questions. Those

42:01

first sessions are in a consultation. Ask

42:04

them very specific questions because

42:06

it's important. You went through a lot

42:08

and you have

42:10

the rights to be respected. And

42:13

for your beliefs that will be respected, especially

42:16

in a place that is supposed to be safe.

42:19

And at thejudic alliance, our

42:22

relationship is to be a safe

42:24

place, and it does

42:26

not feel safe. It is not the right place for

42:28

you. Please go see someone else

42:30

out. So that is my

42:33

greatest advice for them just

42:35

really listen to how they approach things.

42:37

And if there are particular

42:39

things that we trigger you

42:42

or are traumatic for you,

42:44

really make sure that to

42:47

help someone who can respect

42:49

that

42:51

part of you and help you work with it

42:53

and not be tricked people.

42:55

I love that. Just a a very

42:57

empowering message. And

43:00

so go you know, going back to those ideas, so

43:03

to summarize, it'd be very careful about who

43:05

you work with, do your homework, you know,

43:07

try to learn about their background, hopefully

43:09

going into it. And you should also

43:12

not just jump in to working with anybody.

43:14

You should have a consultation meeting

43:16

where your your job as a potential

43:19

client is to say, so tell me about you, tell

43:21

me how you work, asking questions

43:24

to be clear around here's here's

43:26

what I want, and here's what I don't want.

43:28

Right? And also, I think you're bringing

43:30

up a great point is that a true

43:33

professional counselor will do

43:35

assessments and will ask about many

43:37

different life domains, you know, family

43:39

of origin, relational history, sexual

43:42

history, also spiritual history in order

43:44

to kind of understand who you are

43:46

and and what is important to you before

43:49

jumping into stuff. And if at any point

43:51

in the the process you feel uncomfortable,

43:54

you can say that. Where you can

43:56

just stop, you know, and and and understand

43:59

that there is also a power hierarchy

44:01

in in helping relationships that

44:04

particularly vulnerable people, you know,

44:06

can need support and

44:08

and just the the message that,

44:11

yes, you get to be empowered and

44:13

be in control of this process, and you don't have to

44:15

do anything with anybody that you don't want

44:18

to do. So that's really good. And

44:20

just before I forget, I'll mention. So

44:22

on our web site, girdingself dot

44:24

com. We have put together,

44:27

like, a ton of just informational

44:29

resources, things like how to find a

44:31

therapist, how to vet a

44:33

therapist, helping people

44:35

understand like, here here's what evidence

44:38

based therapy practices look like

44:40

and here are some signs that you might be

44:42

getting involved with a therapist

44:44

or a couples counselor who might not be

44:47

really well equipped. To to assist

44:49

you. And so they're they're all available.

44:51

And III felt important for me

44:53

to put that information out there because you

44:56

know, you and I know that not all therapy is

44:58

the same, not all counselors are the same and that

45:00

it's very important to make informed

45:02

decisions, you know. So Okay.

45:06

I know we're out of time, and I I don't wanna keep

45:08

you, but this has been a wonderful conversation.

45:11

Thank you so much for joining me today.

45:13

Thank

45:14

you so much for having me. It was pleasure.

45:16

I really enjoyed talking with Jennifer

45:18

today, and I hope that you got a lot. Out of

45:20

that conversation particularly if

45:22

the cultivation of healthy spirituality

45:25

is something that you are working on.

45:28

To support you in this growth, you are invited

45:30

to come into the emotional

45:33

wellness collection of our

45:35

blog and pod cast at growing self dot

45:37

com forward slash blog hyphen

45:39

podcast. And from there, you'll

45:41

go into the happiness collection and

45:44

find the emotional wellness

45:46

collection where we have a number

45:48

of other articles and also

45:51

podcasts around things like

45:53

finding meaning, also

45:56

grief and loss, different expressions

45:59

of spirituality, but also articles

46:01

that I think can help you particularly in that

46:03

and also in our personal growth collection.

46:06

Help you develop an in devigorated

46:09

an authentic idea of

46:11

who you are and what is important to

46:13

you that can help you

46:15

in this fluoration process and

46:18

help you feel confident in your

46:20

inner direction. As you are considering

46:23

some of these things, perhaps healing

46:25

from the past, but also as you're moving

46:27

forward into a new

46:29

and bright future that is one of your

46:32

making. I will be back in touch

46:34

with you next week. Do not forget

46:36

to tap the subscribe button

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while we're here now so that you are

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notified when a new podcast is

46:42

available for you. And in the meantime,

46:45

let's all enjoy more of

46:47

a dance together with a

46:49

song, Poatro, Vientos.

46:51

And you can learn more about

46:54

Janet, their music, their

46:57

mission, their upcoming tour dates,

46:59

on their Ban Camp page, RKJVK

47:04

dot bancamp dot com.

47:06

Thanks, you guys. Be back in touch soon.