0:00

Hi, it's Meredith. Listeners of Love

0:02

Letters know that mental health is something I take very

0:04

seriously, which is why I want to tell you

0:06

about season three of the podcast, Turning

0:08

Points, Navigating Mental Health. Each

0:11

episode gets real about the ups and downs

0:14

of navigating mental health and the turning

0:16

points that can spark lifelong changes.

0:19

Host Francis Leese, a clinical therapist,

0:21

talks with psychologists, doulas,

0:24

writers and experts about breakdowns, breakthroughs,

0:27

and everything in between. Turning

0:29

Points, a podcast from Point 32 Health,

0:32

in partnership with Boston Globe Media.

0:34

Find Turning Points wherever you get your podcasts.

0:43

How often does someone on the outside find

0:45

a partner in prison, fall in

0:47

love with them, and then it all

0:49

works out? It has to be pretty rare,

0:51

right?

0:52

Yeah, you would think so. And yet

0:54

one of the most popular support groups for prison

0:56

wives, as they call themselves, involves more

0:59

than 60,000 members from all over the world. That

1:02

includes women who already knew their partner before

1:04

they went to prison, but still, that's just

1:06

one group among dozens that exist

1:08

as organized nonprofits or more casual

1:11

networks online.

1:13

This is Boston Globe criminal justice reporter

1:15

Ivy Scott, who spent the past few months

1:17

learning about how romantic love and partnership

1:20

run up against and sometimes transcend

1:22

the justice system. It's

1:24

all part of a three-part series we're calling We

1:26

Found Love. Ivy, I know

1:28

we met two couples in previous episodes who told us

1:30

how they got together, but I want to know,

1:33

are their stories pretty typical? How

1:35

do people in these circumstances usually wind up meeting

1:37

and falling in love?

1:39

I've realized it can happen in so many ways.

1:42

Tens of thousands of women are meeting incarcerated

1:44

men on Facebook or pen pal programs

1:47

through mutual friends or while spending

1:49

time on the inside, either as volunteers or

1:51

activists.

1:53

I have to say, I think a lot of people probably

1:55

assume things about the kind of women who would

1:57

start a relationship with an inmate.

1:59

be something wrong with them. But based on

2:02

the last two episodes, it seems like no one should be

2:04

generalizing about anything. Yeah,

2:07

I do think the stereotype is that women

2:09

who choose to get with guys convicted of a

2:11

serious crime must either be

2:13

desperate, lonely, or quote unquote

2:16

crazy. But it's reductive

2:18

and it's pretty unfair. The more I researched,

2:20

the more I came to see how many different kinds of women

2:23

choose relationships like this. These

2:25

women are army veterans, politicians,

2:27

and a longtime journalist at the

2:28

New York Times. Busy people with

2:31

jobs, friends, kids, and hobbies.

2:34

What do you think makes some people open

2:36

to this kind of love? Because they're starting

2:38

these relationships that have so many

2:40

limitations right off the bat. No,

2:43

that's such a real question and has honestly been

2:45

the big one for me too.

2:47

Aside from air and food,

2:49

we need love. All of us

2:52

need love. And when

2:54

we don't get it, we seek

2:56

it. We go after it. There's

2:58

nothing wrong with it.

3:00

This is Ami Rokash, a

3:02

clinical psychologist, professor, and a

3:04

specialist on relationships, loneliness,

3:07

trauma, and intimacy.

3:08

And I worked for 28 years in jail

3:11

near Toronto.

3:14

Over the course of his career, Ami has seen

3:17

and worked with a number of couples like the ones we've been talking

3:19

to. He told me that women may fall

3:21

in love with men in prison for a number of reasons. Past

3:24

trauma, family baggage, or childhood experiences

3:26

can all play a role. But that's

3:28

not always the case.

3:30

Sometimes it's none of the above,

3:33

it's just the fact that they get

3:35

to know another human being.

3:37

And something's weak.

3:44

For the first two women in our series, Charlene

3:46

and Venus, it seemed to be a mix of both

3:48

their personal histories and the natural

3:51

connections they formed with their partners. Attraction

3:53

is one thing, but Ami Rokash acknowledges

3:56

that he doesn't always understand what leads women to

3:58

commit to relationships with so many conditions.

3:59

phone.

4:02

I say I don't understand, but

4:05

personally I don't judge. It

4:07

comes from something that the

4:09

person needs and

4:11

neither you nor I know what she

4:14

really needs. I

4:16

just don't believe that it can

4:18

last under those conditions because

4:21

you fall in love with part of a person

4:25

and then when it comes out there's

4:27

the whole person. It's very

4:29

possible that the whole person is

4:31

not what you

4:32

thought he was.

4:37

If you listen to the first two episodes in this series

4:39

then you heard about how some of these couples get engaged,

4:42

even married, while one person is still

4:44

in prison. But as Ivy has learned

4:46

it takes a lot to make it work. Relationships

4:50

are hard so is navigating the

4:52

justice system. Doing both at the

4:54

same time is a massive challenge.

4:57

Today for the third and

4:59

final episode of We Found Love,

5:02

Ivy brings us a story about two people in

5:04

a relationship as they consider in real

5:06

time the questions that all couples

5:09

inevitably face. What are

5:11

we and where are we going? From

5:16

the Boston Globe and PRX this is

5:18

Love Letters

5:18

and I'm Ivy Fong.

5:41

It turns out making a

5:43

relationship with an inmate last is exactly

5:46

as hard as you would think and finding

5:48

a couple who exemplifies those struggles in

5:50

the early stages of dating

5:51

proved to be a challenge.

5:54

It seems like every time I'd meet one they'd

5:56

break up. I talked

5:59

to three couples. none of whom are together

6:01

anymore, before I finally met

6:03

Leanne and Jesus, who've been dating

6:05

for just about two years.

6:07

Okay, I was just going to ask if you could tell

6:09

me a little bit about how you two got together.

6:13

Alright, so it's kind of weird, right? Okay, so I'll

6:15

tell you from the beginning. Okay. I

6:18

was in the beginning of the last

6:20

part. Unlike the other couples in this series, Leanne

6:23

and Jesus are countries, not cities,

6:25

apart. Jesus is serving a life

6:27

sentence for murder at MCI Norfolk,

6:30

the same Massachusetts state prison where we met Cornelius

6:32

in the last episode. Leanne

6:35

lives in England, in a city a few hours

6:37

north of London.

6:38

They met through a prison pen pal program on Facebook.

6:41

They've never seen each other in person, but they

6:43

talk by phone or video chat almost every day.

6:46

If he calls me and I'm down and I'm sad,

6:49

by the end of that 15-minute call,

6:51

I'm laughing and he

6:54

makes you smile. He makes you feel better about

6:57

yourself.

6:58

I should say that I've also never met either

7:00

of them in person. I spoke to Leanne

7:02

and Jesus over the phone at different times

7:04

and in various places,

7:06

which explains the background noise you'll hear from time to

7:08

time. I

7:10

didn't know much about these pen pal programs before.

7:13

I'd assumed they were sort of a low stakes community

7:15

service opportunity for people looking to get more

7:17

involved in the social justice world, like donating

7:20

to your local bail fund. But

7:22

Jesus told me that lots of women use the service

7:24

almost like a dating app, specifically

7:26

to look for a man in prison. And

7:28

the inmates know that too.

7:30

It's supposed to be meeting people who've served

7:33

to gain a friendship and stuff like that, but obviously

7:35

we know that there's more to that, right? Your

7:38

intentions is really to meet somebody

7:40

that you like so therefore you can be boyfriend

7:42

and girlfriend with hopefully in the near

7:45

future.

7:47

I was introduced by a friend of mine. He's

7:49

like, why not do it? I

7:52

assumed like I was like, nah, it's probably some

7:54

crazy girls on there or something like weirdo.

7:57

So that's probably how they look at us.

7:59

don't take a chance and try it out. I

8:08

was waiting, waiting,

8:10

waiting. And when it finally happened, I was like, wow.

8:12

It was so many females, just

8:15

all types from every walk of life from

8:17

different countries. And it was

8:19

a lot. And then for

8:22

a while, I was just getting

8:25

weird females. Some

8:28

had really bad issues

8:30

with them. They've been through some real

8:32

horrible things. And it's understandable.

8:36

I'm not perfect, and I

8:38

have my own issues. But some

8:40

of them were so overwhelming that a

8:43

lot, for a long time, I'm like, damn, when am

8:45

I going to get a female

8:48

that I like, that I'm compatible with?

8:54

Jesus is about 40 years old when he

8:56

first starts using the service in 2021. After

8:59

several weeks of dead ends, he finally

9:01

hits it off with a woman from the Netherlands. But

9:04

he quickly grows skeptical. The

9:06

more they talk, the more he wonders if she's interested

9:08

in the relationship for the right reasons or

9:11

whether she's looking for a kind of internal validation

9:13

that he can't provide. Before

9:16

he can break things off, she comes to him

9:18

with an unexpected offer.

9:21

She was like, look, I don't feel like I'm

9:23

good enough for you. So I'm

9:25

going to introduce you to another woman.

9:27

Do you mind? And I'm like,

9:29

what? How? What are you talking

9:31

about? She's like, is the dating

9:34

website on Facebook that

9:37

you could go on there and put up the

9:39

profile in other females that

9:41

might be interested and you might,

9:43

like, kiss you up, right to you. So

9:46

I'm like, if you want.

9:50

Jesus is wary of the whole Facebook thing.

9:52

But at his ex's advice, reluctantly

9:55

asks his 19-year-old son to help him make a

9:57

post on the page with instructions on how

9:59

to use the prison scene. email service to contact him.

10:02

But Jesus's guard is now up even higher

10:04

than before. At his stage in

10:06

life, he isn't looking for a passing fling. He

10:09

wants someone he can go deep with. He

10:11

begins to feel the frustration shared by many of

10:13

us after one too many failed connections

10:16

on a dating app. This can't

10:18

really be how guys meet confident, mature

10:20

women,

10:21

can it? It's

10:23

with these doubts at the front of his mind

10:26

that in the fall of 2021, Jesus receives

10:28

an email from Leanne.

10:34

It was really boring stuff. I was

10:36

really, I'm really bad at that sort of thing. It

10:38

was like, my name is Leanne. I

10:40

have three children. They're all grown

10:43

up. How old I am. It

10:45

was very basic, you know, just kind

10:47

of like a little introduction.

10:49

For the record, Leanne, who's 41 at

10:52

this point, has no expectations

10:54

of romance. The only reason she writes

10:56

at all is because she's struggling with insomnia,

10:59

which started after a bad breakup. She

11:02

knows she can't expect her usual support system

11:04

to stay up with her at all hours of the night. And

11:06

after moving to a new place in the middle of the pandemic,

11:09

new community isn't exactly easy to come by.

11:13

I was talking to one of my friends and

11:15

he said, why don't you just get yourself a

11:18

pen

11:18

out? You know, if you find someone in a different

11:21

country, then they're probably going to be awake

11:24

at the same time as you because of the time difference.

11:27

So I just went on to Facebook and I typed

11:30

in pen pals and one of the

11:32

prison pen pal sites came up.

11:35

Leanne doesn't remember exactly what it was about

11:37

Jesus's profile that first struck her.

11:40

But something about how

11:42

he spoke just caught

11:44

my attention. I only wrote

11:46

to him. He was the first person I actually

11:48

wrote to. And honestly, I didn't

11:51

think anything would happen. I didn't think that I would get

11:53

a reply, to be honest. So

11:55

I was quite shocked when I did. I

11:58

wasn't expecting this. I was

12:00

expecting a pen pal.

12:04

And at first, that's exactly what she gets.

12:10

Jesus writes her back about a week later to

12:12

introduce himself. He asks

12:14

what England is like, how her children are doing. By

12:17

the way, he says, I also have kids who are

12:19

all grown up now. As

12:21

their emails become more regular, with a new message

12:24

every four or five days, Leanne finds

12:26

that writing to a prisoner isn't at all what she had

12:28

expected. Spare from

12:30

being griffaced, Jesus'

12:32

emails are playful and introspective, a

12:35

surprisingly comforting presence from 3,000 miles away.

12:39

I was kind of expecting him to be a little

12:41

bit more rough around the edges,

12:43

if you get what I mean. But

12:47

it turned out that you kind

12:49

of have, I don't know, preconceived

12:51

misconceptions about people in prison.

12:55

Leanne does Google Jesus to read about

12:57

his case, but she doesn't bring it up, and

12:59

she's not particularly bothered that he doesn't either.

13:02

She imagines that he probably doesn't want to talk to

13:04

a near total stranger about the worst moment

13:07

of his life. Jesus

13:12

was convicted in 2006 of fatally

13:15

shooting Jaya Desai, a woman who

13:17

operated a motel in western Massachusetts

13:18

with her family during a robbery

13:21

three years earlier.

13:22

Like every person convicted of first-degree murder

13:24

in Massachusetts, Jesus was sentenced

13:27

to life in prison,

13:28

without the possibility of parole.

13:30

In appeals to both state

13:32

and federal courts, Jesus challenged

13:35

the fingerprint and shoeprint evidence used to convict

13:37

him, but his conviction was upheld

13:39

by the highest court in the state in 2010.

13:42

Two years later, a U.S.

13:44

District Court judge denied his federal appeal.

13:47

The crime is horrific, but reading

13:50

his case doesn't make Leanne want to stop writing

13:52

to Jesus. If anything,

13:54

she wonders whether his time in prison has changed

13:56

him.

14:01

I mean, he's been in there nearly 20 years.

14:05

If someone hasn't learned their lesson or

14:08

is remorseful or tried to improve

14:10

themselves in 20 years, I know

14:13

what he did was a very bad thing. He

14:16

doesn't come across as a bad person.

14:20

Despite the buzz of a slight connection, Leanne

14:23

is still under the impression that Jesus is just

14:25

a pen pal. Their emails seem

14:27

to reflect a casual friendship, for the

14:29

most part.

14:31

The silly things, I almost used my

14:33

letters like a diary to him, if you

14:35

get what I mean. Like, it

14:37

was my way of getting out what

14:39

I'd done. In the day, my emotions,

14:42

my feelings.

14:45

But after a few weeks of back and forth, the

14:47

wait between emails starts to feel frustrating.

14:50

It can take days just to have one meaningful

14:52

conversation. And Leanne and Jesus

14:55

both find that they have a lot to talk about. So

14:58

with Leanne's permission, Jesus begins to call.

15:01

At first, every few days,

15:03

and then daily.

15:05

They support one another through hard times, fawning

15:08

over him losing his mother and her losing

15:10

her stepmother during the pandemic. For

15:13

Jesus, Leanne's attentiveness and

15:15

ability to not just listen but really understand

15:18

what he's going through slowly allows

15:20

him to get past his initial reservations and open

15:22

up. She's still one of several

15:24

pen pals he keeps up with. And yet,

15:27

there's no one that makes him feel quite like she does,

15:30

and no one he feels like calling quite as often. She's

15:33

trying to help me through that hard time. So

15:36

I'm kind of like, I fell in

15:38

love with the idea of, wow,

15:41

she's a loving and caring person.

15:43

I see none of her. And

15:46

the more I started learning about her,

15:49

I started noticing that

15:51

she's really a down-earth female

15:54

that didn't have it necessarily good,

15:57

struggled, but she made it. You

16:01

know, she's all good for herself as

16:03

much as she can and support

16:05

those that are around her.

16:11

Leanne is, at this point, living with her

16:13

dad and daughter, who's about the same age as

16:15

Jesus' son.

16:16

She used to work as a caretaker in a nursing home, but

16:19

is in the process of recovering from the insomnia and

16:21

some other health issues. She

16:23

keeps herself busy helping her dad renovate the house

16:26

and drafting the business plan for the family antique

16:28

shop the two hope to start together soon. All

16:31

of which she updates Jesus on pretty much

16:33

daily. In time,

16:35

Leanne even feels comfortable enough to tell Jesus about

16:38

her last dating experience,

16:39

a long, painful relationship marked by physical

16:42

and emotional abuse. Sometimes

16:44

when you tell people that you've

16:47

had experiences with domestic

16:49

violence and how bad they were, people

16:51

tend to look at you and pity you and

16:54

treat you differently. So that was

16:56

a massive concern, but he never treated me any differently. He

16:58

made me feel so comfortable about

17:00

coming to him and talking about these things.

17:03

I felt like I could talk to him about anything, and

17:05

I knew that he wouldn't judge me for it.

17:11

The shift from friendship to something more happens

17:14

gradually, an accumulation of silly

17:16

jokes and whispered condolences and

17:18

heated debates and patient silences. With

17:21

the addition of video calls a few months in, their

17:23

connection deepens. Facial

17:26

expressions and tears and laughter all brought

17:28

to life. And then one day,

17:30

Leanne says, she just stopped

17:33

seeing Jesus as a prisoner.

17:35

I don't even think about that part of it,

17:37

to be honest, anymore. It's, you know,

17:39

it is

17:42

hard, but I don't know. I

17:44

don't know what it is. He has a way with words. He's

17:47

really cheeky. And even

17:49

before I knew what happened, I was

17:51

falling in love.

17:53

About six months after that first email, they

17:56

decide to make things official. When

17:58

Jesus first asked Leanne to be his girlfriend,

17:59

girlfriend.

18:00

She's so surprised she doesn't answer.

18:14

When he asks again a few days later, she's

18:16

ready with a resounding yes. As

18:19

you might imagine, going public with the news

18:21

that you're dating someone you've never met, who's

18:24

also an inmate, doesn't exactly

18:26

draw the warmest reactions. While

18:28

some of Leanne's friends and family support her decision

18:31

to date

18:31

whoever she wants,

18:32

others are definitely physical.

18:57

Jesus and Leanne only discuss his case every

19:00

so often,

19:01

but sharing her relationship forces Leanne to

19:03

reckon with the fact that her boyfriend is in prison for an extremely

19:05

serious crime. And yet,

19:08

she feels confident that if her family and friends

19:09

could meet him, they would see what she sees.

19:13

I mean, if someone asks me, do you have

19:15

a partner, I'm like, yeah, where is he? He's in America.

19:17

He's in prison.

19:21

It doesn't bother me, people's reactions,

19:23

but some people, they do have reactions, yeah, obviously.

19:26

And what do people usually

19:29

say? I mean, I'm guessing the biggest reaction

19:31

is probably just surprise.

19:33

I don't think a lot of people understand

19:37

at all. If you haven't experienced

19:40

something like that yourself, then you're

19:42

not going to understand. And unfortunately, when it comes

19:44

to crimes like

19:47

dioceses and the fact that he

19:50

is in prison and has been in prison for a long time,

19:52

people tend to look down on people like that without

19:54

even knowing their story.

19:57

At no point does Leanne deny that Jesus'

19:59

conviction is serious.

19:59

Or suggest

20:01

that he shouldn't have to face the consequences

20:03

of his actions. But the horrific

20:05

events of that night 20 years ago do not make

20:07

him a monster, she insists. Nor

20:10

do they mean he is unworthy of love.

20:13

Obviously, what he did is

20:15

a very big deal, especially for the

20:17

victims' families. But

20:19

it didn't put me off because I

20:22

think I got to know him as a

20:25

person. So I feel like sometimes

20:27

people are judged way too quickly,

20:29

whether they be in prison for a mistake or outside

20:32

for a mistake. So I've always tried

20:34

to not judge people on what they've

20:36

done. I try to judge them on

20:38

who they are now.

20:44

Jesus is grateful to have found a woman who seems

20:46

sure of herself, willing to look beyond his

20:48

conviction to see the man he is today. But

20:51

he also recognizes that love is deeper than those

20:53

early butterflies, or that first emotional

20:55

connection.

20:56

He is being realistic and

20:59

completely falling in love with someone

21:02

that you don't know best people about.

21:05

You know what I mean? I've

21:08

been in love before, I know what it is, and

21:10

there's different levels of love. If

21:14

I could say I'm in love with her mentally,

21:17

yeah, I'm in love with her in

21:20

the mental department, very emotional

21:23

department as well. To

21:26

say I'm completely in love, absolutely

21:28

not. And whoever says that, they just lying,

21:31

and they using that word loosely.

21:35

But I will say that I have

21:37

real genuine

21:39

feelings for her, that it's

21:42

adding up to love.

21:46

Their story continues after this quick

21:48

break.

21:57

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Okay, we're back.

22:59

Like any couple, Jesus and Leanne have

23:01

their challenges. Some are unique

23:03

to their situation, but they also wrestle with

23:06

many of the same questions that couples in traditional

23:08

partnerships do. Are we compatible?

23:11

Is this relationship good for us? And

23:13

of course, what about the future? For

23:16

Jesus and Leanne, a proposed change to

23:18

state law is adding some urgency to those questions.

23:22

In 2023, Massachusetts lawmakers

23:24

debated a bill that would end mandatory life

23:26

without parole, giving every inmate

23:28

an opportunity to go before a parole board

23:30

after serving 25 years. In

23:33

July, state legislators

23:34

heard testimony from supporters of the bill.

23:37

Incarcerating myself and others

23:39

for life after 25 years

23:42

is not just a waste of the human

23:44

aspect, but also the

23:46

energy that this

23:48

planet needs right now, that

23:50

this community needs right

23:52

now. If passed,

23:55

this policy change would directly impact Jesus,

23:58

who has already served nearly two decades. of his life

24:00

sentence. With the prospect

24:02

of release comes the ability to dream of a future

24:04

beyond the prison walls, but also some

24:07

hard conversations about, practically

24:09

speaking, what that future would look like.

24:12

I don't like living in a fantasy world, right?

24:15

I like reality. And some

24:17

people be like, well, how does that work? She lives

24:19

in a different country, and you

24:21

live over here, and, okay,

24:23

you love each other, and you want to make this happen.

24:26

But how's that?

24:28

Like, how does that work?

24:30

I know plenty of couples do long distance, some

24:33

even for decades,

24:34

but this feels different. Don't

24:37

you need to meet your partner, even just once, to

24:39

know that what you think you have is real? Sure,

24:43

Jesus and Leanne spend plenty of time dreaming of

24:45

a world where Jesus is granted parole, Leanne

24:47

moves to the U.S., and the two buy a home in the

24:49

countryside. And yet, it's

24:52

impossible to predict what it would really look like

24:54

to blend their two lives into one. The

24:57

couple are open about the fact that, up until now,

25:00

the biggest obstacle to that dream and the subject of

25:02

their most serious fight has actually

25:04

been religion. Leanne is

25:06

a staunch atheist, Jesus, a

25:09

practicing Muslim, who wants to be with

25:11

a woman that, at the very least, believes in

25:13

some idea of God.

25:15

I don't care what religion I told her.

25:18

I said, look, I want to be honest with you, I

25:20

can't be with a woman

25:22

that doesn't mean I'm God. I just can't.

25:25

I'm sorry, but I can't.

25:29

At first, it didn't seem to matter too much. After

25:32

all, they make each other happy and offer a kind of

25:35

steady support

25:35

that neither of them had really known before

25:37

from a partner.

25:39

But the prospect of Jesus' release is prompting

25:41

entirely new conversations for the couple about

25:44

exactly how serious their relationship is and

25:47

how much someone should be willing to sacrifice

25:49

for love.

25:51

I have people in my head like, yo, you sure you got what

25:54

you want, bro? Don't block yourself down in death.

25:57

You've been down 21 years and you get out and

25:59

you finally realize nothing. That's not what you want. I'm like, yo,

26:01

bro, I know what I want. I really

26:03

want this. But at the same

26:06

time, I'm looking at reality as far

26:08

as like, geez, way over there. And

26:10

I keep asking, I'm like, you know what I mean? Like,

26:13

your kids and family

26:15

is gonna up and leave them behind. I

26:20

need person to meet. I know that they don't

26:22

want that. And I feel bad.

26:24

I feel like I'm doing something wrong. And

26:27

I don't wanna keep you in prison because I'm

26:29

in prison.

26:31

And though she doesn't mention them to him often, Leanne

26:34

also has insecurities.

26:37

I'm worried that he will get out. And

26:39

I was just someone to pass the

26:41

time with while he was in there. And

26:44

then obviously once he's out, that's not our

26:46

only barrier. I also need to

26:48

get a visa. I need to come over.

26:50

Do you know what I mean? And what

26:52

if he gets out and I can't come over

26:55

because I'm waiting for a visa and he finds someone

26:57

else or one of these other pen

26:59

pals is a better fit

27:01

for him.

27:03

Despite her own doubts, Leanne

27:05

has taken it back that Jesus would falter now

27:07

at the very moment when everything they said

27:09

they wanted finally seems possible. But

27:12

she's not ready to give up yet.

27:15

I'm getting on, my kids are fully grown.

27:17

I've got grandchildren. And yes, there's

27:19

a massive risk. It could be way too quick,

27:22

way too soon. But I

27:26

wanna find out. I wanna know. You

27:31

wake up in the morning and you smile because

27:34

the last person you spoke to, the

27:36

last voice that you heard was his before

27:38

you passed

27:38

it.

27:39

And that makes you feel good. So your

27:42

first initial wake up is, oh, I fell

27:44

asleep and he

27:46

was the last person I heard and

27:48

he told me he loves me. And

27:50

then reality hits and you realise you're

27:52

waking up alone. Yeah,

27:58

of course. loving

28:00

someone is that you want to have them physically

28:02

there. You want to be able to reach out and touch them and

28:04

smell them and kiss them and hug

28:07

them and have them hold you when you're

28:09

crying. It can be

28:11

so frustrating sometimes. But,

28:15

you know, I love him.

28:17

So you make

28:19

that sacrifice. One day we won't

28:21

be in this situation and

28:24

that's all we try to keep our

28:27

head on.

28:29

Jesus hopes it'll get better too, but doesn't

28:31

hide the fact that the distance can make it hard to

28:33

see a way forward.

28:37

It's

28:58

not that I'm not thankful for that,

29:00

but like I want that other half

29:02

of me. You

29:03

know what I mean? And the only way to

29:05

get that is to get me

29:08

the real thing. You

29:11

can't

29:11

build on that. You can't

29:13

even hug the person that you would.

29:16

You can't even kiss them. You can't hug them. You can't

29:18

touch them. You can't smell

29:20

them. You can't hold them.

29:23

You look in their eyes and tell

29:24

them like, what you're throwing at your heart. Like,

29:27

these are things that

29:28

I want.

29:31

For me, hearing Leanne and Jesus

29:33

work through these issues in real time was

29:36

like a crash course and conflict resolution.

29:39

I'll admit, there

29:39

were definitely times I talked with one or the other

29:42

when I was sure they were on the verge of breaking up, for

29:45

quiet periods when I didn't hear from them and

29:47

assumed they called it quits. And

29:49

maybe that will be their fate. But

29:52

I do know that Jesus and Leanne never

29:54

hid their

29:54

hard moments from me.

29:56

And I know they've made it through rocky stretches before.

30:00

Their argument about religion is a prime example

30:02

of how talking seriously about

30:04

Jesus' freedom has wiped the rosy

30:06

glow off their dreams of the future, brought

30:09

old fights back into the spotlight, and made

30:11

both partners realize that for any relationship

30:13

to work, even compatible people have

30:16

to compromise.

30:18

He said to me, would you convert?

30:20

And I'm like, well, no,

30:22

because I don't believe. And

30:25

at some point I felt like maybe he wanted

30:27

me to convert anyway. I don't think that's what

30:29

he did want in the end, but I just said I was

30:32

explaining to him that, yeah,

30:34

I could convert. I could go and do it tomorrow, but

30:36

it would all be a lie.

30:50

Okay,

30:56

we will move our separation.

31:01

So I felt bad after and when

31:03

I was like, you know what, I'm going to call

31:05

her and make a mess.

31:16

We both know where each other stands

31:18

and what each other wants, but unfortunately when it comes

31:20

to religion, that's where we are very

31:22

different. But it's

31:25

just the way it is, isn't it? You have to make compromises

31:28

when you're in a relationship.

31:36

I've tried to approach Jesus and Leanne's story,

31:38

like the others in this series, with an open mind

31:41

and with a lot of empathy. Empathy not

31:43

just for the couples trying to make these unconventional relationships

31:45

work, but also for the dozens of people

31:48

tangentially involved. Their friends,

31:50

families, and of course the victims

31:52

of these three crimes and the people who loved them. These

31:56

love stories do not and can never excuse

31:58

what happens, but they do give me hope

32:00

that, decades after the fact, these

32:02

men are capable of also doing good in the world. In

32:06

some ways, they have already proven this.

32:08

Blake came home and got a job,

32:10

raised a family.

32:12

Cornelius is a vocal advocate for social

32:14

justice and reform, and Jesus remains

32:16

as present as he can be in the lives of his children, instructing

32:19

them not to make the same mistakes he did when he was

32:21

young. Each, in his own

32:23

way, has also longed for love, to

32:26

belong and to be fully known by someone

32:28

who reveals their full self to you. Seeking

32:31

that love is a fundamental

32:32

human impulse. I

32:39

have truly marveled to watch these couples build

32:41

intimacy despite the barriers, despite

32:43

the surveillance and the security restrictions and

32:45

the stigma. I learned that it requires

32:47

an immense amount of sacrifice,

32:49

far more than I think I'd be willing to make. It

32:52

also requires patience and a reordering

32:55

of life's priorities that puts the things that really

32:57

matter in sharpest focus

32:58

and encourages us to release the rest. To

33:02

the people who either seek out or stumble into

33:04

this kind of relationship, it seems to

33:06

be worth it.

33:07

The strange and uncertain love built

33:09

and hopeless place.

33:16

I'm not one to hold a bridge, so if we had an

33:18

argument today, tomorrow I would

33:20

pick up the phone like nothing even happened. We

33:23

get such a short time together, if

33:26

you argue 15 minutes

33:29

is not a lot of time to be able to resolve

33:33

all of the problems that you may have. So I

33:37

cherish the time that I get with him, no

33:39

matter what it is, even when we're

33:41

bickering.

33:44

When a female don't run and she

33:46

stays there and she

33:49

confronts the situation, I'll

33:51

fuck and doesn't run away from the situation,

33:54

that to me is big.

33:56

And

33:58

she stood around, she didn't run away. and

34:01

that's when I knew right there.

34:04

Because it's more to that, but

34:06

we would need a whole other half an hour and we were

34:09

going to hang up. Thank you for

34:11

using Securus. Goodbye.

34:29

If you have questions or thoughts about

34:30

the We Found Love Project, please email

34:32

them to loveletters at boston.com. Love

34:35

Letters is a production of the Boston Globe and PRX. Today's

34:38

episode was reported by Ivy Scott and

34:41

produced by Jesse Remedios, our editor

34:43

is Scott Helman. Ned Porter does our audio

34:45

mixing, sound design and mastering. Maddie

34:47

Mortel does our audience engagement. Love Letters

34:50

illustrations by Ali Riza. Our marketing

34:52

coordinator is Maggie Taylor. Special

34:54

thanks to Linda Henry. Our music is from APM.

34:57

We're online at loveletters.show.

35:00

I'm Meredith Goldstein. Thanks

35:02

for listening.

35:28

From PRX.