0:02

I missed it. You,

0:10

we are recording.

0:15

Terry's birthday has come and gone.

0:23

My son is coming on.

0:26

I'm now 40.

0:30

You made it.

0:31

I made it.

0:33

You made it.

0:34

I made

0:34

it. Here you are. You're beautiful.

0:37

I think

0:38

you are. We both have our up dues

0:40

today. Yeah. The bigger the hair,

0:41

the closer to God hair.

0:44

Yeah. I mean, something like

0:47

that. It looks

0:49

good. Hi, I've missed you.

0:52

Likewise. .

0:54

Tabitha: We talked a little

0:56

body for the holidays

0:58

kind of thing, or just

0:58

coming home to yourself, whatever

1:00

it is that kind of a theme.

1:03

I don't know if you've been

1:03

thinking on that at all,

1:05

but you're always kind

1:05

of thinking about that.

1:08

Yeah, it's kind of your thing. That's kind of your life really

1:15

a little

1:15

bit. My thing, so I'm just curious.

1:18

I want to just kind of hear from you. I know you've got stuff on your heart.

1:22

You always have stuff on

1:22

your heart and mind that's

1:25

beneficial for many other people.

1:27

So. Oh tab.

1:30

Thank you. And we're appreciating

1:33

this prompt of coming home.

1:36

I feel like, I feel like homecoming

1:36

actually has been a way that

1:42

I would name a lot of what is

1:42

coming up for me in this year.

1:48

And. There's so many reflections.

1:52

I don't think we'll be able to touch

1:52

them all in, in our conversation.

1:56

But one pathway of coming home is

1:56

building home with my partner, Charlie

2:02

and building relationship and family.

2:05

And I say building as in like not

2:05

falling into and coming home, I

2:10

feel like requires the present.

2:13

Present walking in, into and

2:13

with and beside I don't feel,

2:16

I feel like you just can't, we

2:16

probably don't just fall into home.

2:20

Another iteration of coming home

2:20

this year is the, is the continuation

2:25

of my daily painting practice. And I feel like.

2:28

There's so much about practice that

2:28

is in highlight for me this year.

2:33

Because I've begun sharing more about

2:33

that with, with folks in community.

2:38

And so I've had to acknowledge myself

2:38

and I've had to acknowledge the body

2:43

of work that I've done in a way that I

2:43

think I was being a little bit passive

2:47

about before, like, Interestingly, I

2:47

was like acting in that direction, but

2:53

I wasn't acknowledging, and I feel like

2:53

that itself acknowledgement really is,

2:56

is a really important piece that has

2:56

evolved for me through daily practice.

3:01

And yeah. And then this other piece that was just

3:03

sort of named But I feel like has a bunch

3:08

of like sub categories within it, of

3:08

about coming home to myself as recognizing

3:13

where I have been projecting certain

3:13

image, which I, I couldn't even identify

3:21

until this year because there were

3:21

places in which I just had my head down

3:26

and I was just doing what I had to do.

3:30

And. There were many layers of that, like

3:32

doing what I had to do and I work doing

3:37

what I had to do in my first marriage.

3:40

Yeah, there was a lot and doing

3:40

what I had to do in terms of like

3:43

unwinding trauma and like noticing

3:43

where all of that lived in me.

3:52

So. Pervasive.

3:55

And some of those ways that it

3:55

was pervasive are really subtle.

3:58

Like they weren't, they weren't so

3:58

obvious to me until this year where I've

4:05

had the privilege of actually receiving

4:05

the forced March into self-reflection

4:09

on pause through this pandemic, like

4:09

I've worked a lot, a lot, like I'm

4:16

working many hour weeks, but I'm also

4:16

working from home, which means I'm not.

4:21

Driving. And I'm not setting up pillows and

4:22

turning on tea, water, and sweating,

4:26

and like preparing to interact

4:26

with people in person, which as

4:32

an introvert is like taxing too. I love it.

4:35

And it's taxing to me. And, and I didn't know that until I

4:37

started working in this way, of which

4:40

case, like working on zoom is taxing,

4:40

but like different than being in person.

4:45

Yeah, all the time doing

4:45

really intimate work.

4:48

So those are like some major, like

4:48

places that I'm aware of of coming

4:54

home, like family and art practice.

4:58

And and what I would maybe say

4:58

as dissolving my shell, like.

5:05

The projection that I had that

5:05

I had been living within for

5:09

a long time is so close to me. It's so almost exactly me, but it's

5:11

like buffered from my, from allowing my

5:20

responses to be as they are in a moment

5:20

and not actually inviting intimacy.

5:26

I wasn't, it's amazing to reflect. Back on my life before this last year

5:29

and last couple of years, really, but

5:34

really the last couple of years, cause

5:34

even in my, my friendships have become

5:37

more intimate and more like intimately

5:37

honest, like emotionally honest.

5:42

And yeah, I just had like this.

5:47

I just had this shell

5:47

around me for a long time.

5:50

So I feel like coming home part of it

5:50

is like not just being in cause I'm

5:54

good at being in love, being in it's

5:54

actually like coming out and inviting

6:01

participation inviting intimacy,

6:01

inviting relationship in so many ways.

6:07

Hmm, including some of the things we

6:07

just touched on that you were naming

6:10

about within your relationship.

6:12

Like, Oh, here's this thing this

6:12

has now gone well before, when I

6:20

hear

6:20

it is will you be with me in it? Oh, you will.

6:23

Okay. Yeah. Okay. You sure?

6:26

Okay. And then, yeah.

6:30

But not only doing that in my most

6:30

intimate relationships, but actually in

6:33

my business, like allowing my business

6:33

to be a reflection of my inner life.

6:37

And more people are coming

6:37

to me because of that.

6:39

Like, I feel like I used to like

6:39

project and reflect, like I used to like

6:43

project where I had worked my shit out.

6:47

I didn't so much over project. Like I wasn't, like I

6:49

have all my shit together. It was like, I have this shit together and

6:50

I just didn't talk about the other shit.

6:56

And then when I got divorced and had

6:56

a year of epileptic seizures, I was

6:59

like, Oh no, this is like, undeniable.

7:01

I can't remain in this chasm anymore.

7:03

Like we're going to have to

7:03

reconcile and yeah, through

7:06

doing, through doing that and. Inviting people into where like I'm

7:09

in practice and process actually has

7:13

really deepened my relationship with

7:13

everyone, including people in my practice.

7:18

I feel like we're actually peers. Like I've always idealized to being peers,

7:20

but I feel like I'm actually peers with

7:25

people in my practice and we're like

7:25

doing work together and it's really.

7:31

Fucking awesome. It's what I've always, it's what

7:32

I've actually always wanted. I feel like I'm receiving what I've

7:34

always wanted, which lately often

7:38

on I've had this like, Oh shit,

7:38

when's the shoe gonna drop because

7:41

I have what I want a little bit. There's a little bit of that, but

7:46

Oh, well, yeah, I

7:46

get that on so many levels.

7:50

Yes,

7:52

stuff's going right. Or okay.

7:54

Or, okay.

7:56

When does it all come

7:56

crashing down or something?

8:05

That's good. That's amazing. I have, I guess I've been thinking

8:06

along similar terms lately.

8:10

We, we have you and I use such

8:10

things, different language.

8:12

I feel like

8:14

rad,

8:15

but it's also the same.

8:18

Yeah. I've often found that to have a say.

8:20

I feel like, and actually I feel like

8:20

that's really important and lovely

8:24

for people to like, Share their own to

8:24

share their share in her life language,

8:30

but then also actually recognize I've

8:30

often recognized that we're running

8:33

parallel, but we're just, we're naming it

8:33

slightly differently, which is helpful.

8:38

I think that that diversity is really essential. Yeah,

8:41

you're just much

8:41

better at expressing yourself.

8:44

So I'll just say that I,

8:49

I disagree. I feel like you were wonderful

8:50

at expressing herself and I

8:53

gleaned things every time you

8:53

were willing to take that risk.

8:57

Thank you. , but I think because I'm

8:58

always so blah open,

9:03

like here's what I was dealing with

9:05

yesterday. Like this morning I woke

9:06

up feeling like this.

9:12

I'm always so like

9:12

right in the in process.

9:15

And I always feel like everybody else. Has a much better handle on their lives

9:17

and their healing process than I do,

9:22

because it's like, but there's both right.

9:24

There's I'm in it. I'm doing this. And I'm sharing because I think

9:26

other people might be, and we

9:32

can come alongside each other.

9:34

Yes.

9:36

I don't know if that's kind

9:36

of what you're getting at as far

9:38

as being a little more open, but. It's more, it's less of a, like coming

9:40

from above and like coming alongside.

9:45

Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And it's true.

9:48

The above for me. Part of my shell was like, I've always

9:49

been able to see like the bigger

9:53

arcs and how they're they're running.

9:56

Yeah. And I'm like, okay, we're in this one.

9:58

Okay. And like navigating my now.

10:00

But the thing that you're naming is

10:00

something that I'm But I've always felt,

10:04

but I just haven't shared it by now.

10:07

Like, Oh, the story of now and how

10:07

that's relating to this big arc is

10:10

this, like for instance, this week

10:10

included multiple opportunities to

10:16

navigate holding my own within vulnerable

10:16

moments, in which like something

10:22

really challenging was happening. Like I had a few different.

10:26

Opportunities that actually were required

10:26

of me very different kinds of responses.

10:32

And it was amazing to see that myself like

10:32

to see what I've been working on in a long

10:36

arc reflected in such an immediate sort

10:36

of emotionally alive container of time.

10:44

Like this month has had a few things, but

10:44

this last like nine days has really had

10:49

a lot ranging from like, A friend sharing

10:49

with me that I really hurt their feelings.

10:55

And the way that that rolled

10:55

out was curious for me.

11:00

But I like stayed present to it and

11:00

was able to apologize for the thing I

11:05

did, but also like held my own around

11:08

where

11:08

I had need and, and where my humanity

11:08

was without being overly defensive.

11:12

I'm not saying I wasn't at all

11:12

defensive, but like I felt like I

11:15

was able to Process my own activation

11:15

without like throwing it back at them.

11:20

And usually I wouldn't

11:20

really throw it back at them.

11:22

I would just eat it. So I'm really glad I didn't just eat it.

11:26

So for me, like interacting

11:26

with it and even being a little

11:29

defensive was weirdly progress.

11:32

Cause I wasn't just like absorbing

11:32

somebody else's thing and then,

11:36

and then basically avoiding

11:36

them or cutting them off.

11:39

I was like, yeah. Okay. That's yours personally,

11:41

but like where, where am I?

11:45

What's my responsibility here. And then another opportunity arose

11:47

in which I had hired somebody for

11:51

something and then I didn't hear

11:51

from them for 10 days and I decided

11:56

not to hire them for that thing. Yeah. They wrote me this like response

11:58

and I was like, That's fine.

12:05

And I didn't respond to that one. And I was like, it's, it's appropriate

12:07

for me in this case to not respond like.

12:11

Yeah. And so I feel like it's taken a while

12:12

to not just have like a blanket response

12:17

based on whatever, like whatever the

12:17

world is recommending or trauma or

12:21

whatever, and this actually having

12:21

resources to show up and respond to

12:26

differently to different circumstances. Which I feel like in some cases, some

12:28

people like clean those skills when

12:31

they were like teenagers, but it didn't

12:31

really have that opportunity, so,

12:38

Oh man. I hear you on all,

12:40

all those accounts,

12:42

like it's, it's just.

12:46

That's

12:46

really interesting in being able

12:46

to see all the nuances in an exchange

12:51

like that, like friends, hurt feelings

12:51

or whatever, and being able to see what

12:56

is being projected onto you, what you are

12:56

responsible for, and then not letting it

13:03

crush you

13:06

crush you. And actually even meeting my friend

13:08

in their pain and I feel in right

13:13

relationship navigated, like there's a

13:13

little bit of a press in, and I'm sure

13:18

I pressed in a little bit, but like, I

13:18

feel like we actually, like, for the most

13:22

part, what's the heart of the matter here. Like how can I meet the heart of the

13:24

matter of what's being brought to me?

13:28

Even though I, yeah, even though the

13:28

conditions weren't totally ideal,

13:33

like I was, I was just saying, hi,

13:33

and I received an unexpected response.

13:38

Like, I didn't know that it was

13:38

going to be a processing response.

13:40

And so I was like, Oh, this is the

13:40

conversation we're suddenly having.

13:43

Okay. But it was interesting.

13:46

I was like, okay, like, Still, how do

13:46

I manage my own energy and self-soothe,

13:50

and also like, meet the need right now,

13:50

which might require me to make some

13:53

concessions around not being thoroughly

13:53

met in this moment by this person.

13:59

Yeah. Because that's not, what's required.

14:01

What's required as to like, Acknowledge

14:01

or this person is in pain and like

14:08

take responsibility for what's mine

14:08

to take responsibility for anyway.

14:11

Right. Nitty gritty, getting down to the

14:12

mechanics and details of like,

14:15

it's a big deal though,

14:15

because I think there's a huge

14:18

culture around toxicity right now.

14:21

Right. If I'm sensing that when people

14:22

just don't like something or

14:28

the way something's going. It's all of a sudden toxic and you

14:30

know, a lot of it, a lot of the time,

14:36

it is just the dynamic that's toxic.

14:38

And do we automatically

14:38

say someone is toxic

14:42

or a situation is toxic because it's

14:44

not easy or

14:50

yeah. The needs aren't matching

14:50

up at the same time.

14:53

Like. Yeah, it's curious.

14:55

I mean, the point in which this person

14:55

asked, asked for something of me at

14:59

the end of last year, what happened

14:59

is I had said, I'd get back to her.

15:03

And I never got back to her. And that was, I understand

15:04

why that was painful for her.

15:06

She, she had asked only a small

15:06

handful of people to have her help.

15:11

And I was one of those people

15:11

and I totally dropped the ball

15:14

on it and had forgotten about

15:14

it because I was in my own shit.

15:18

So like, I have understanding

15:18

and compassion for myself

15:21

of being in my own shit. And I also have understanding

15:22

compassion that that was hurtful to her.

15:26

Like totally get it. It's almost like an

15:29

example of these dynamics. I don't, and I'm not meaning to talk

15:31

about particular things for such

15:36

a long time, but I just feel like

15:36

these are, these are the mechanics

15:40

of actually being here, like. How do we honor ourselves and

15:42

get along with each other?

15:45

And like, we're not all going to

15:45

have the same needs at the same

15:48

time and still can we, can we bridge

15:48

those gaps and find intimacy and

15:52

connection and in right relationship?

15:55

And what does that actually friggin

15:55

look like, which we don't always have

15:59

resources for that in a given moment?

16:02

No, I think we're also concerned

16:02

with not being in the wrong that

16:08

it's really not about right or wrong. Yeah,

16:11

it's

16:12

a lot of it is about

16:13

the stories we tell in our heads,

16:13

the story that the other person is

16:17

telling in their head, the stuff

16:17

that's being projected on us, the stuff

16:19

we're projecting onto the situation.

16:23

This is, I feel like this

16:23

is a nice touchstone for coming

16:25

home because I feel like. So much of that.

16:27

And this year, particularly I've made

16:27

more of a practice of being like, what

16:31

am I actually able to show up for?

16:33

Not just do, what am I able to do?

16:35

It feels like a question in which

16:35

I could totally forsake myself.

16:39

What am I actually truly available for?

16:41

How, what can I actually show up for? And am I willing to

16:43

communicate about that?

16:46

And if I'm not. Why like then what, and,

16:48

and are, are these therefore

16:53

relationships that I can maintain? And in some cases, even if I totally adore

16:55

somebody, no, because they're their needs.

17:03

I, I'm not able to be a friend for

17:03

their needs in the way that they need.

17:07

And it's not about shutting it off. It's just about not overextending because

17:08

I actually really more and more understand

17:13

myself and I understand my energy reserve

17:13

and what, what I'm actually able to give

17:18

and what I'm not actually able to give. And I feel like I have

17:20

overextended myself for so long.

17:25

Oh my God. My ex-husband used to bring that to me.

17:29

He would just be like, say no. And I'm like, Whoa.

17:32

Yeah, like saying no was just, it felt

17:32

evil to me, it felt vile to me that

17:38

I would not be able to offer somebody

17:38

what they were requesting of me.

17:41

And now I'm like, no, if not this

17:41

something else, like if I can

17:47

free up the space and say no, then

17:47

that person's going to be able to

17:50

actually go where they can be mad. And it's not about denying future

17:51

requests or intimacy, but like totally.

17:59

From a place of self-awareness

17:59

and standing within myself

18:02

being like here's, what's real.

18:04

Here's what's actually possible.

18:06

Yeah.

18:07

Yeah. Are you finding more of that

18:07

opportunity to like, say the thing?

18:11

Not just to like know the

18:11

thing or practice the thing

18:15

and not just know the thing.

18:17

It's a lot easier with

18:17

people that are in the, like, You

18:21

know, the third concentric, you know?

18:28

Yeah. Harder

18:30

with people that are friends. And also that's the thing I think.

18:35

And I think I'm back to the toxicity

18:35

thing because it's like, I think

18:38

we automatically right now in

18:38

this time that we're in, we go to.

18:42

Is this a toxic situation? Do I need to just cut this off?

18:46

And it's really about see that

18:46

toxic person walk the other way?

18:55

Oh, the time talk

18:56

that's going around.

18:58

I feel like we're all,

18:58

we're all toxic sometimes.

19:01

Yeah. That's the thing. And it's, it really is just about what

19:02

we have the bandwidth for and what

19:09

is serving us the best in the moment.

19:12

And also like how we're

19:12

going to be able to serve

19:16

best. So, and moment by moment, but also like

19:18

we're talking about in arcs, like yeah.

19:24

What I noticed about what I noticed. It took me a long time to notice

19:26

the toxicity in my marriage.

19:29

It was probably mutual. It's not like I'm completely, I like, I'm

19:30

very, I was very much there holding my

19:35

ex-husband at arms length, which I've had

19:35

time to like really process and maintain.

19:41

And am I responsible for his actions?

19:43

No. But Yeah.

19:45

Like we were maintaining a dynamic

19:45

over time that we were not, we

19:50

were not able to really mutually

19:50

meet or, or serve each other

19:54

same

19:55

and there wasn't really

19:55

a total willing, right.

19:57

And there wasn't a total willingness

19:57

to like pivot towards intimacy.

20:00

And I think that's the

20:00

piece that is curious.

20:03

And so like with this friend this week,

20:03

I think I asked you a question and

20:07

I'm taking it over humble apologies. But with this friend of the speaker,

20:09

what was sweet is that like.

20:12

We went through a few

20:12

movements of conversation.

20:15

And then we found that we

20:15

pivoted towards each other.

20:18

And I was like, yeah, it's not like

20:18

conflict means that there's problem.

20:21

In fact, like conflict can bring more

20:21

intimacy, but, but both people have to

20:26

choose and turn and pivot towards that

20:26

in a way that is like truly mutual.

20:33

Within a rate, I would say within

20:33

a ratio of mutuality within a ratio

20:36

of, of it being true, because it's

20:36

not like it's not like it was, I feel

20:42

completely processed about any of

20:42

the things we've talked about so far.

20:46

Or whatever. It's not like, but by majority I'm

20:47

like, Oh, returning towards that.

20:50

And it's not a bypass turn. It's not like, not like we're just

20:52

going to ignore this problem and

20:55

never engage on it again or whatever.

20:57

It's like, acknowledging it and

20:57

being like, I'm willing to pivot

21:01

towards this relationship with

21:01

this, knowing that we need to be

21:04

sensitive to these kinds of things. Okay.

21:06

Like now I know better

21:06

how to take care of you.

21:09

And I definitely know better how to

21:09

take care of me within this, within

21:12

the context of this, through through

21:12

boundaries and through naming the thing.

21:19

Yeah. That's so good. What you were saying about the turning

21:21

to one another is a big thing and that's,

21:25

I think the inability to do that is

21:25

at times what makes a dynamic toxic.

21:32

Yeah, same. I mean, there isn't any marriage where

21:32

both people aren't contributing to

21:38

whatever's happening in that relationship.

21:40

Obviously you

21:40

both show up or not, or

21:44

you're both there though,

21:46

and whatever's happening

21:46

is a product of the day.

21:51

Two dynamics together or the

21:51

dynamic between the two of you.

21:55

Some of it's reactive abuse of time. Some of it's also just really unhealed

21:57

stuff and you don't have any idea

22:01

how to like, create a boundary and

22:01

just say, Nope, this is my standard.

22:06

This is what I want.

22:08

Yep.

22:08

This is what needs to happen. If it's not, Oh, well, like did the

22:11

ability to hold things really loosely

22:15

and also like care enough to say

22:15

this is who I am and where I stand.

22:20

And I didn't know enough about

22:20

myself when I got married.

22:23

Yeah. I was going to say that to you. Yeah. I couldn't, I couldn't even see the

22:25

things really feel like a couple

22:29

of years before we separated. I feel like I like.

22:33

Really suddenly must be able to see.

22:35

And then I was like,

22:35

Oh, now I can't unsee.

22:39

And now I'm awake. And, and giving it time to see what

22:40

would happen to what would unfold,

22:45

but then also not betraying myself,

22:45

not staying within a context,

22:50

particularly near at the very end where.

22:57

I'm not betraying myself by staying

22:57

in a context that was going to

23:00

actually whittle away my soul. Like we're in, I was like actually going

23:02

to disappear because I was valuing my

23:09

needs and I wasn't actually valuing

23:09

totally or able to meet my ex-husband's

23:13

needs and, and including like the pace

23:13

in which I was hungry and willing to go.

23:19

He was, he was in his own pace

23:19

and It's not like pacing in

23:24

and of itself was the problem. It's like all of the rollout of

23:26

other unconscious behaviors that

23:32

contributed, compounded that. Like, we don't have to be in the

23:34

same place as our partners either.

23:36

Like. I think Charlie and I are

23:37

aware, like, I don't know.

23:40

It's been a beautiful, interesting

23:40

year because I'm like in my business

23:44

and he's like recalibrating and it's

23:44

amazing to be like really together

23:50

and not necessarily in the same.

23:54

It's like flipped for me and my boyfriend. I'm recalibrating.

23:59

He's like, yeah, it's interesting.

24:03

Yeah,

24:04

but it's good. I think of both people like you guys

24:04

are in a really healthy relationship

24:08

and that probably

24:08

works on some level

24:08

for each of you and your many

24:13

levels, three calibrating too.

24:16

And I think would go with the

24:16

rising up in some other ways.

24:18

And so it's not exclusively this or that.

24:21

It's like this and that. And I feel like that's where

24:23

the that's where there's sort

24:26

of threading between it's. Yeah, yeah.

24:33

Yeah, I love that.

24:38

I always totally relate. And the stuff you say

24:39

resonates with me so much.

24:43

Likewise.

24:45

Thanks. I still think it's the human experience,

24:49

right? Thanks without deflecting. Yes, it is.

24:57

It is. It is. And me coming from a place of what,

24:59

the stuff I talk about, like I went

25:02

no contact with my family because

25:02

there's like this and this and this.

25:05

I have always kind of looked at it like.

25:08

They needed to do that too. That was my family's choice.

25:11

Also. It wasn't working for them

25:14

either. Right.

25:15

You know, they couldn't

25:15

have someone going, this is my life.

25:20

We don't want anyone to know that. Like

25:22

that's okay. Right. In

25:24

a way. Yeah.

25:26

I heard, I know it.

25:33

I think about that with my mom too. My mom.

25:36

I talk with my mom probably

25:36

three or four times a year.

25:40

Yeah.

25:41

And it's getting better because

25:41

I think she's just too tired.

25:49

And

25:51

if

25:51

I'm being honest,

25:51

like I definitely maintain.

25:55

Our relationship. Like I, I reached out,

25:57

I call, I write letters.

26:00

They definitely think about me

26:00

and I know that they love me,

26:04

actually, my mom and her partner. And they haven't had a lot of

26:05

like help or opportunity or

26:11

circumstance that's encouraged. Further development.

26:15

And so sometimes they rely back on

26:15

their like stressors, but I'm not a kid.

26:20

And so it's not, it's not like,

26:20

and I'm not living with them.

26:23

And so it's not impacting me

26:23

in the same way it used to, but

26:27

not anymore in the same way. But this last year, my mom said

26:29

something like, I'm not really your mom.

26:35

And I don't know that she was totally

26:35

conscious of what she was saying.

26:38

And

26:39

I was, and I'm like, you're right.

26:44

You're not really my mom, you're my mama.

26:47

You gave birth to me. We have maintained a relationship

26:48

to the best of our ability which

26:55

is not what I would consider a

26:55

relationship to be honest, like, but

27:00

we have remained in contact, but I

27:00

wouldn't say we're in relationship.

27:04

Like. But hers saying that I feel like

27:05

is touching on what you're naming,

27:08

which just like the way that I am

27:08

in this world is not what she needs.

27:13

Like I'm incredibly, like, here's

27:13

the thing, my mom's all like.

27:20

My that's not how that was.

27:25

This is how that was. And I'm like, Ooh, no.

27:27

See, I was there like you, weren't

27:27

the only one who was there.

27:31

That's narcissism. I was also there and my experience was

27:32

this and yeah, like she doesn't need

27:37

that.

27:40

He doesn't want that. That is not actually anything

27:41

except for triggering to her.

27:44

So it doesn't work for her.

27:47

It doesn't actually work for her. I don't

27:48

actually

27:51

work for her. I'm beginning to not really take

27:52

that very personally anymore.

27:55

I'm like cool, because there are

27:55

people in my life that are more

28:00

of my mom and I totally work for

28:00

them and they totally work for me.

28:05

And that mom need is met.

28:08

And of course there's pain

28:08

that my birth mom is not.

28:12

Able to be in relationship with

28:12

me for some particular reasons.

28:15

But there were aspects of it

28:15

that kind of worked for me.

28:17

Like I've been reflecting in the last

28:17

decade or so about how I'm built and

28:23

how actually the amount of independence

28:23

that I had as a kid, even though it

28:27

created some deficiencies in me, my

28:27

ex husband, he works to make shift.

28:31

And so he wasn't home all the time. And so it's been really interesting

28:33

to notice like, Oh, I, I have

28:35

been keeping almost everybody at

28:35

arms length and I'm not anymore.

28:38

And that's what this is like. But like there were things that worked

28:40

for me or that I made work for me.

28:44

I'm not sure which happened first. Yeah, it's curious because

28:46

it's, I'm like grateful.

28:49

I came from who I came from and yet, like

28:49

none of those relationships were good.

28:55

It's just an odd thing to feel.

28:58

It is. It is. I feel that so much.

29:01

When I first started writing about my

29:01

family, that was the way that I came at.

29:05

It was like I had these

29:05

experiences growing up.

29:08

Therefore it made me. Adept at this, this, this, and this in

29:13

life. Right.

29:15

And I almost was the taking it. Like I wanted to be grateful for it.

29:19

That was the thing that kind of blew

29:19

my mind when my family was like, you

29:22

shouldn't be writing about this anymore. I was like, but I, well, I'm just talking

29:23

about what I've learned through life

29:27

and like, why I'm am the way that I am.

29:31

And to them, it was just horrifying having

29:34

real stories out

29:35

there, but I'm like, but I'm

29:35

just, I'm actually appreciating, like

29:43

this is oddly over or

29:43

except it's also a calling out.

29:50

So

29:53

it's why I haven't really

29:53

written about my, I haven't

29:56

really written about my life. And I have not talked about

29:57

my life a lot in the past.

30:00

I think when we did our first

30:00

round of this, I was like,

30:03

Ooh, vulnerability hangover. Like I have like hinted at

30:05

like, Oh, it was intense.

30:12

But in terms of like details I've

30:12

been hyper private about it,

30:16

about what happened, but Yeah. It's beginning to change for me.

30:19

I'm like, actually I feel like these

30:19

things need to be named speaking

30:22

of which I really have to pee.

30:24

Oh yeah.

30:26

I'll be right back.

30:26

I may do it as well

30:27

yay.

30:32

We did it.

30:33

Well, we paid, we

30:33

paid and it was good.

30:42

Yeah. Yeah. Even those things, like, I'm just

30:47

getting better at saying I have to pee

30:52

me to

30:53

an interrupting. Something like

30:56

you

30:56

have to take care of ourselves.

30:59

I feel like the world is

30:59

beginning to like, well, I feel

31:02

like we've always wanted to. And so I feel like because a few

31:03

of us are beginning to take risks

31:05

with these kinds of communication.

31:10

It's just more accessible to everybody.

31:13

To be like, I'm a person and I have

31:13

needs and I'm going to meet those needs.

31:17

And they're really simple for

31:17

you to help me meet those needs.

31:19

And I will help you meet those needs too. But I just feel like that's part

31:21

of the shell dissolving for me

31:23

in the last couple of years. Like I had a seizure in front of some

31:24

of my students while I was teaching.

31:28

And fortunately it wasn't a

31:28

grandma, but like, it was still

31:32

like terrifying and weird. Like I lost function in my

31:34

left side and it was like, and

31:38

now I'm not going to teach. And part of me was feeling guilty

31:40

like, Oh, these students, they

31:42

came to learn this thing and

31:42

they're paying me and whatever.

31:46

But actually what I received

31:46

reflection on was people were really

31:49

happy to have a way to help me.

31:52

They was like helpful for them to see

31:52

my humanity, I think because I've just

31:56

always just been like, even if I'm

31:56

tired, if I'm whatever, I'm just like,

32:01

okay, we're going to do that though.

32:05

I'm

32:05

going to give this thing and now I'm

32:05

like, cool, I'm going to give this thing.

32:09

I'm going to give you my best. And also like, I'm a person I'm not

32:10

perfect and I don't have it all together.

32:16

I don't need you to have it all together. Like I don't need you to not

32:18

pee or whatever, or eat or

32:23

whatever, or meet your needs. Like please.

32:25

Yeah, definitely

32:29

not just you, but like

32:29

any, you know, the year.

32:32

Yeah. The you have it all

32:35

the, you have it all the, we have it, all

32:38

the, we, us,

32:39

the weepy, all of us pay everybody.

32:48

This is good stuff. See, you had all that stuff

32:51

sitting in there. Always.

32:53

I always have this stuff sitting in here. This is all I think about.

32:57

I

32:57

know. Isn't that great.

33:00

I guess. I mean, it's just how it is.

33:05

I love that you've

33:06

created this life for yourself. I'm really grateful that it's

33:11

actually, like, my best is

33:14

beginning to reflect in my life. I feel like I feel like I was building

33:15

inside of myself for a really long

33:22

time, and I'm really delighted to

33:22

see it reflecting in my outside life.

33:28

More like. I have the family, like I've

33:29

actually allowed myself to step into

33:33

having family, to being in family.

33:36

And I always wanted, you know, we were

33:36

talking about kids earlier and I spent,

33:42

I spent over a decade wanting a baby.

33:45

Yeah. Hard and losing, losing babies.

33:50

And It's interesting now because being

33:50

with Charlie and he has a daughter and

33:59

children, and it was so clear to me.

34:03

That that was not, that was

34:03

not a deal breaker for me.

34:06

That like, actually for, in my own

34:06

experience, like wanting the baby was in

34:12

a lot of ways, wanting family, wanting

34:12

intimacy, wanting connection, wanting to

34:17

share what I know and to also like witness

34:17

the full, the development of somebody.

34:25

Like I wanted to witness

34:25

the process of development

34:27

because I, I was not witnessed.

34:29

And. I was given two, but I was

34:32

given two and very harshly.

34:36

Like people gave me lessons. Like I remember the lessons, my

34:38

parents taught me and I'm grateful

34:40

for what they taught me, but I just

34:40

didn't need how they taught me.

34:44

And I wanted the opportunity to like

34:44

witness some of these development and

34:49

like, I really have looked at why I wanted

34:49

to have a kid and part of it too, is like,

34:53

I feel like things are finally getting

34:53

good and I kind of want to pass that on.

34:59

And then being with Charlie

34:59

and building family with him,

35:02

building, building relationship

35:02

with him and building relationship

35:06

with Frita I don't want a baby.

35:10

I it's interesting that that shifted.

35:12

I went through grief and I also

35:12

went through like what white partner

35:15

named of like, I've decided that

35:15

it's okay if that doesn't happen.

35:20

And that was maybe not how he's saying it.

35:23

Like he's maybe his school or

35:23

better or whatever, but like,

35:25

I think he's cool with it. Yeah. I was sort of like, okay, it's

35:27

okay if this doesn't happen.

35:31

And then actually like it's settled

35:31

and I'm like, Oh, what I've always

35:34

wanted with that by majority, I have

35:34

like we came into each other's lives

35:40

right before she started her cycle.

35:43

And that was a really amazing

35:43

thing to watch, like the space

35:46

before the space, during the space. Now, now this like this time after

35:48

she started her cycle and like the

35:53

shifts in, into individuation and all

35:53

of the ways that I get to witness and

35:59

be there and share, but also receive

35:59

gifts from her inherent wisdom.

36:05

And it's what I've always wanted.

36:07

It's like not how I thought it

36:07

was going to happen at all, but

36:13

it is what I've always wanted. Like the, by feeling, it's not, it

36:14

doesn't look the way that I thought

36:17

it would look, but by feeling like

36:17

I have actually what I, what I

36:21

wanted with that with having a kid.

36:25

Yeah. I get that. I get the feeling of

36:26

wanting to pass that on.

36:30

And also watching the development

36:30

that you talked about.

36:36

I totally get the, the wanting to

36:36

build a family and also I'm getting

36:40

more comfortable with the idea of

36:40

if this doesn't happen, Like, if

36:45

it's something that can't happen

36:45

naturally, it's, it's not like I'm

36:49

going to go to the ends of the earth. But I understand that the feeling of

36:54

wanting to build a family, like that's

36:58

totally an, a home like and I think we can

36:58

have that even just within ourselves, but

37:04

also that communal family type feeling.

37:08

And I. You know, I've had

37:10

stepchildren in my life.

37:12

I had step-kids in my marriage. I had, you know, basically

37:14

stepdaughters in my last partnership.

37:19

And in my marriage it

37:19

was a decent experience.

37:23

I think I was going through a lot

37:23

of growing pains during that time.

37:26

So it was a little, you

37:26

know, it felt hairy at times.

37:30

But in my last relationship,

37:30

it was a nightmare.

37:37

So that's when I came

37:40

in. I feel like you're really fortunate

37:41

in that way to also have, it

37:46

could have been so many ways, right? Like it's, I'm really grateful

37:47

that I'm really grateful.

37:51

I'll just name that. Yeah. Charlie and I are building.

37:56

Like our gifts and challenges are

37:56

in compliment with each other.

37:59

Is it elegant orchestration? Maybe. I just feel like the rollout.

38:04

Again, it wasn't what I thought it

38:04

would look like, but it actually needs

38:08

in this particular person's life in

38:08

my, in my life, it actually meets

38:11

the thing that was the underpinning

38:11

which is not, which is not at all to

38:16

say that that's, you know, the way

38:16

that you're underpinning what we met.

38:19

Like, I feel like, yeah, we don't

38:19

know what that looks like yet.

38:23

I know what it looks like, but I also. You know, it's a, it's a process,

38:26

you know, you feel the, the baby

38:30

fever essentially, you know, like

38:30

rising at times, and then it's like,

38:36

there's this desperation around

38:39

it. Yep.

38:41

And then I have to take

38:41

a step back and look at that and

38:43

say, well, what does that like,

38:43

does that make me a whole person.

38:47

If I have this, like, does that make

38:47

me more of a, have more purpose or w

38:52

like, no, it doesn't, but also like

38:52

that whole aspect of of saying this

39:00

is my life, this is what I want. This is what I want to do within

39:01

partnership, because it takes two people

39:06

and two people have to be on the same

39:09

page about that. It was

39:12

yeah.

39:14

Unexpected things happen.

39:17

It's just an interesting

39:17

thing, you know, like it's an

39:21

interesting thing to go through. It's definitely a

39:22

stretching healing process

39:25

and I'm sure.

39:27

You've been through all the

39:30

Frieda is not my kid, but she

39:30

is my kid, but she's not my kid.

39:34

There's like pieces where I'm

39:34

like, okay, we're going to,

39:36

we're going to manage this. And there's some dynamics

39:37

there that are like, yeah.

39:45

Charlie. Do you want to talk about it with me? Yeah.

39:48

Bring

39:48

Charlie in. So when you have partners that are

39:51

working together on it too, you might

39:54

not always see it exactly the same way,

39:54

but if they can hold space and I know

40:00

Charlie is a big space holder.

40:05

Hey,

40:05

Charles. This is true.

40:12

We're talking about Tabitha has had

40:12

some stepchildren experience and I'm

40:16

now having like a step-mom experience.

40:20

So I'm a dad of a

40:20

daughter, teenage daughter.

40:24

Dynamic is important with how

40:24

it all works now, honestly.

40:31

Hm, my daughter's pretty intelligent.

40:35

My daughter's pretty sharp. My daughter's pretty aware of things.

40:37

So it was really easy for her to recognize

40:37

the characteristics and in mag, I think

40:44

that made it really easy for those to, to,

40:44

to to bond pretty early on and know that

40:52

there was room room for that to grow to.

40:56

Or get the real, I get the

40:56

sense that freedom, really.

40:58

Yeah, really.

41:03

He understands that our relationship will

41:03

change and she's, she's cool about it.

41:07

She's onboard with that. She actually kind of

41:10

sounds like she looks forward to that

41:12

in a lot of

41:12

ways it's been a wild ride.

41:17

So then there's like a I'm I'm, I'm

41:17

an emotional person and aware of

41:22

other people's emotions around me too. And that was difficult

41:24

for me at first, because.

41:30

How far were we into our

41:30

relationship before we really

41:33

had that, that conversation? I remember it was in the apartment

41:37

then not having children. Yeah. Yeah.

41:40

It was about three or four minutes,

41:40

probably three or four months

41:42

in where part of me felt

41:42

bad because the stance that I felt

41:48

I needed to take with kids and future

41:48

of it was not gonna allow part of.

41:56

Meg's dream of lab of life.

41:59

But then I was offering Meg

42:02

so much of what she was

42:02

telling me she wanted out of

42:07

that,

42:09

that it, wasn't very

42:09

hard for me to stick with what I

42:13

that was to not have more than one kid.

42:16

What my mind kept saying is you are

42:16

offering her a child, a daughter.

42:20

It just looks a little bit different. And again,

42:25

I still,

42:26

there's still a part of me. That's all, you know, you didn't get,

42:27

you didn't get that chance to have

42:32

that

42:33

bonding time

42:33

with the child.

42:38

But I realized again,

42:38

like, Part of our relationship

42:43

meant honoring ourselves a lot.

42:47

And so if I was to like cave in,

42:47

I wouldn't have been honoring the

42:53

relationship that we were trying to build. That would have been a lot, like

42:55

the one that I, that I had just

42:58

left and probably she just left.

43:01

So again, I just had to be present in.

43:09

And what I had to offer and

43:09

stick with, stick with, you know,

43:15

and I wasn't asking, I wasn't

43:15

asking to have children with you I feel

43:20

like when we had that conversation,

43:20

when it was declared, and I think

43:23

this is the piece that, that ties

43:23

into some of what we're talking about.

43:29

Like, I was willing to add.

43:32

I was willing to like, say something

43:32

like, do you want to have more children?

43:36

Which is exactly what I said. It wasn't like. I wanted to have a baby with you.

43:39

And I don't want to be with you in this. You want to have a baby with me.

43:41

It was like, do you want to have children?

43:44

Do you want to have any more children? Which I had, no, I had a

43:45

feeling, but we hadn't actually

43:47

explicitly talked about it. And what I needed was for an

43:49

explicit conversation, your response,

43:55

which was very strong at first,

43:55

like, no, I was like, like I had

43:59

to process that Rose, like, yeah. Okay.

44:02

I mean, I knew that, but Yeah.

44:07

Like, I feel like, I feel like

44:07

saying what saying it and then

44:12

him having the freedom and room to

44:12

like, say through in real for him.

44:17

And then for me to be able to like

44:17

ask myself, okay, so where does that?

44:23

Where, where am I now? Where is that now?

44:25

And I'm like, actually, like, I never

44:25

wanted to have more than one child.

44:30

Like, it would be overwhelming

44:30

to when I, when I like get down

44:33

to it and like being with you. Is what I want, I want to be with you.

44:40

And yeah, so that just, it just was very

44:44

clear to me in that conversation.

44:49

Like, yeah, I want to be with Charlie

44:49

and and actually the flutter, the

44:56

rise and fall, the loss, the grief of

44:56

having been pregnant and then losing.

45:08

And then also being in recognition, even

45:08

though it was like a seedling at that

45:12

point, but being in recognition of like

45:12

the deepest desires of what I wanted

45:18

with that were actually happening and

45:21

I think we co-parent really well.

45:24

And I, and the thing that you're naming

45:24

Tabitha of, like, you didn't have room,

45:29

I'm so sorry that you had that experience.

45:31

I feel like. I feel like this kind of

45:34

relationship of being a step

45:36

parent actually is really special.

45:40

It's really special. It's odd, but I'm, I'm used to

45:42

being in between so much of my

45:47

experience as a mixed native woman.

45:50

And like I'm neither big nor small.

45:53

Like it's like, I've just feel

45:53

like my entire experiences

45:56

navigating being in the middle and.

46:00

And also at the edge, like in the,

46:00

on the fringe a little bit like

46:04

inviting people to recognize that

46:04

the fringe is actually a really

46:07

beautiful and welcoming place to be. And that it's not, it

46:08

doesn't have to be scary. Like as a, as an interest

46:11

spiritual minister, I feel like

46:13

I'm constantly like ushering a flow

46:13

between the fringe and the center.

46:18

And and in this position, I feel like.

46:24

The things that are in right relationship

46:24

with my actual self how, like my actual

46:30

energy level, because even honestly

46:30

being a mom half-time, I'm like,

46:38

Wow. Like I love it and I'm tired in ways

46:40

that I've never been, but I'm also more

46:45

fulfilled in ways that I've never been. And, and because something in my, my

46:47

bestie wife is Eilee said is like, She's

46:52

like, I'm so sorry that you have not had

46:52

the opportunity of being a mom, but also

46:56

if you were a mom, you would not be able

46:56

to be the community mama that you are,

47:00

you wouldn't be receiving your gifts. And it was hard for me to hear at the

47:02

time, but I've been sitting with that for

47:05

a few years and I'm like, actually, I,

47:05

I have energy for really deeply tending

47:12

people in my life and in my community.

47:16

And again, my little introverted hard

47:16

socially I'm capable of motor mouthing,

47:21

but like I love being alone in silence.

47:25

And like, I'm actually able

47:25

to, this is so millennial for

47:30

me to say live my best life. I like having by being a blended

47:32

by being in a blended family.

47:37

And my experience is

47:37

actually like, Surprising.

47:41

It's not. So again, like when I like imagined my

47:42

life, I did not imagine being a step-mom,

47:46

but like I'm totally a step-mom and

47:46

I'm for me, I'm rewriting that because

47:49

my ex do I want to say it was one

47:49

more third, one experience will start.

47:54

Realms will smell great. As far as

47:58

like step-mom scripts go.

48:00

That's a pretty, pretty good one.

48:03

That's a pretty

48:04

good one to be on.

48:06

Yeah. Yeah. It's just interesting to hear you to

48:08

speak because I mean, in juxtaposition

48:13

to that, I actually really got along

48:13

with every step kid in my life.

48:17

There were four of them. Just us relating to one another, but

48:20

when it came to the dynamics of whether

48:24

it was their narcissistic mother

48:24

or whatever, there was this draw,

48:28

right.

48:28

To create confusion

48:28

and to stir stuff up.

48:34

And there was this whole it's we talked

48:34

about the dynamics, like there's that.

48:39

And then like I saw how the

48:39

relationship could have been really

48:42

beautiful and, and really great, and

48:42

actually suited me quite well, too.

48:47

And then also the having more

48:47

children, I really respect.

48:52

That, because I had a partner

48:52

who for three years told me

48:56

that we were going to have kids. And then at the very end,

48:59

after three years, he was like,

49:00

yeah, I'm almost 50. Now. I don't want to have any more kids.

49:03

I need to break up with you. Cause I know that's what you want.

49:05

It would have been much kinder

49:05

for him to sit with himself before

49:09

getting into a relationship with a

49:09

younger woman who wanted children.

49:14

That's actually the kind

49:14

and loving thing to do.

49:16

Agreed. And that's, I knew that about myself.

49:19

I, it wasn't like, I knew

49:19

that I needed to have kids.

49:22

I knew that I needed to

49:22

have that conversation.

49:24

I feel like I've been really clear

49:24

about what I, what I want and what

49:30

I need and where there's room for

49:30

concession and since the beginning

49:36

of this relationship, I feel like. We've been in practice.

49:40

There's some things that we've

49:40

needed to be in practice about it.

49:43

Wasn't about like, here's what I need.

49:46

And this is really hard. And I don't have this resource and I have

49:47

bad, really bad experiences with this,

49:51

but like we've created such a platform

49:51

of practicing saying those things.

49:57

And I feel like even with some on ideal

49:57

conditions, we've really navigated.

50:03

From a foundation of true friendship

50:03

and understanding of each other's trauma

50:08

of each other's wants of our dreams.

50:11

And we have a lot of mutuality in,

50:11

in those directions and like our

50:16

wounds that are operating, but also

50:16

our greatness, I feel like we've

50:19

really been able to encourage and like

50:19

witness each other's greatness and

50:25

part of that's like, I, I know that

50:25

the part that a major part of that is.

50:29

So having built a foundation from that

50:29

really early on, and again, being willing

50:34

to say like, so I need clarity on this.

50:36

Do you want to have more kids? Because like, I need to

50:38

not live with the question.

50:41

The question was the thing that was, and

50:41

like, I don't want to be sneaky about it

50:46

and I don't want to be hopeful about it. And I don't want to wonder about it.

50:50

Like I had, I had a feeling

50:50

and then it needed to be named

50:54

and I could, frankly, not. This is one of those pieces where I

50:57

feel guilty because I'm like true.

51:02

But like, I could not bear

51:02

any more grief about babies.

51:07

I like, I don't tend to give up

51:07

on shit, but like, I couldn't,

51:11

I actually got past my threshold

51:11

about, about grieving children.

51:17

Yeah. It needed to be like, I needed it.

51:21

I needed something new at that point.

51:25

Yeah. Yeah. No, that's good.

51:28

I mean, I'd get that, the question being

51:28

out there as torture sometimes, and also

51:32

like the not future faking somebody, like

51:32

that's another thing, when my boyfriend

51:36

broke up with me at one point, I was

51:36

like, I never would have been with him

51:40

if he hadn't really future page from

51:40

the very beginning, like I probably

51:44

never, we probably never would have

51:44

gotten very far into our relationship.

51:49

Yeah.

51:50

It was just an interesting,

51:51

I wouldn't

51:52

stay, even if I, you know,

51:52

one thing I remember when we had that

51:55

conversation was even if I would've stayed

51:55

in my marriage and none of that would've

51:58

happened, we weren't, we were gonna

51:58

have, we weren't going to have any more

52:02

kids.

52:04

Not in that one either. And then I found myself in a, in a

52:06

ferry rapidly Deepening relationship way

52:12

sooner than I think I expected with me.

52:15

And so I was confronted with these

52:15

questions way sooner than I had honestly

52:21

had time to give that stuff to simmer too.

52:25

And so I was still riding this wave of

52:25

one and done kind of thing with my family.

52:34

And then honestly, I

52:34

didn't expect to find.

52:38

To find such an incredible partner.

52:42

For another, you know, I thought it was going to be a five

52:43

or 10 year thing where, you just have

52:47

time to do stuff, but here we were.

52:49

And so, and then everything's like,

52:49

that was kinda like, here we are.

52:53

And here we are. And here we are all the time. She was nothing other

52:55

than to be like this.

52:58

Okay, here I am then.

53:00

Yeah. Yeah. And you risked possibly her saying,

53:01

well, I want these things and right.

53:08

She's shown me an

53:08

adult and I can, I have to trust

53:10

that she's with all this stuff

53:14

and it's

53:15

worked out pretty

53:16

flawlessly so far. Yeah. Pretty awesome.

53:20

Yeah. I would say. Yeah.

53:22

And it's not like I don't, I

53:22

have grief waves of the loss

53:25

or of not having children. Like I definitely agree, but like yeah,

53:27

so I just want to say that it's like,

53:32

I know earlier I said, like, I'm done

53:32

with, like, I just couldn't bear, like

53:36

adding more potential grief to that mix.

53:40

Inherently there is though, because my

53:40

attachment and bond with Frida is like so

53:44

strong that even her mom acknowledges it.

53:49

That's special. Yeah. I mean, it's really special.

53:53

It's like intense sometimes, but

53:55

yeah.

53:56

But yeah, like my, my attachment

53:56

with Greta, I feel like our relationship

54:04

is, is it's like that's risky too.

54:06

It's not like I'm buffered from loss.

54:09

Right. And I don't want to live

54:10

a life buffered from loss. I think that's the thing about the shell

54:12

dissolving that about coming home, right?

54:15

Like, yeah. Coming home is actually

54:16

I'm willing to risk living.

54:22

Yeah. He does

54:23

committed, free, super cute. We'll be watching TV in anything she

54:25

knows is about to trigger each of us.

54:29

She knows a lot of our triggers,

54:29

financial pause it and be like,

54:33

okay. This is about to happen. This is about to happen,

54:36

you know, are you

54:36

guys cool with like the scenes?

54:39

And we're like, Oh, it's really cute.

54:47

She's so I know that she she's aware

54:47

and she's committed and she's into it.

54:52

And this together really well.

54:55

It's really beautiful, unfortunately,

54:57

to see where it all goes.

55:00

Inspiration you guys,

55:00

because I mean, there's so many

55:03

people that follow me that are

55:03

disconnected from family altogether.

55:07

Like, like blood family and.

55:11

You know, I always say, now is

55:11

your chance to, become family to

55:15

yourself, into build a family. And we get to make that, you know, we get

55:18

to choose better people for us and yeah.

55:25

Yeah.

55:26

Yeah. And it's, it's, it is it's particularly

55:26

special because I don't know.

55:32

I mean, like, how do I know how

55:32

to build family this last year?

55:36

I've been reflecting on that where

55:36

I'm like, where do these skills

55:40

and natural inclinations come from?

55:43

Cause like, it's not like I

55:43

particularly came from caring, but yeah.

55:49

And even, even in, and a lot of

55:49

my friendships, like I haven't

55:52

particularly necessarily even

55:52

allowed myself to be fully cared for.

55:56

And I think that's part of the importance

55:56

of my shell coming down is like, Hmm.

56:00

Allowing myself to be held and met.

56:03

And there's so much that we gleaned

56:03

from being in relationship that we

56:07

can kind of only get to you're in

56:07

a relationship like I did as much

56:12

as I possibly could by myself. Like I needed all the time that I gave

56:13

myself to really be like when I, like,

56:20

when I reflect on my arm's length

56:20

nest and my first marriage, like.

56:25

That I can be gentle with myself. Like there's part of my, that I

56:27

needed to take accountability for

56:29

it, but I also am like, of course

56:31

you were protecting herself

56:33

for like, I was protecting

56:33

myself because of some of the things

56:36

that happened in that relationship. But also like, I didn't

56:37

really know any better.

56:41

Like I didn't have many other experiences

56:41

that, that proved to me that showed

56:45

me what intimacy actually looks like. And in this relationship, I

56:47

feel like we're increasingly.

56:51

Taking off the cloak and like

56:55

it,

56:57

yeah. And then more and then more and then more

56:58

and then pausing and also the pausing.

57:01

And also it's not like there's

57:01

no resistance or there's no like

57:05

projects that we're working on. We're totally working on some projects,

57:06

but I'm really grateful that two tender

57:10

wounded people were, are able to like.

57:13

Build something that's really resilient.

57:16

And from what I can see, very healthy

57:16

and truly very loving and very intimate.

57:21

And I feel like for myself, that's

57:21

like a Testament that I didn't need

57:25

to be shown this, to know this. I feel like there's something

57:27

maybe inherent about, Oh, this

57:33

is such a mushy statement. I think there's something really

57:34

inherent about love that If there's

57:37

room that it doesn't even necessarily

57:37

need ideal conditions that it can

57:42

bloom it can be a wonderful teacher.

57:45

I feel like I've been taught by that

57:45

this year, this last couple of years.

57:50

It's not like we've had the most

57:50

ideal conditions and that's how

57:54

we're building our good love

57:54

we've been turning towards that.

57:56

We've been recognizing where

57:56

some things need attention and

58:00

where they need care over time. Caring attention patient persistence

58:02

rather than like, harsh, well, why don't

58:06

you fucking know that and fuck off. It's like, Oh, you don't know that?

58:11

Okay. Well, I have this experience and can

58:11

we build from there and mutually,

58:15

I feel like we're doing that.

58:17

Yeah. Not being afraid to speak up about it.

58:20

She's good. Yeah.

58:23

Increasingly not being afraid.

58:26

Definitely quicker.

58:28

Yeah. One of my personal

58:30

challenges.

58:32

But again, as

58:33

long as a lot of the things

58:33

that we're working on or that, you

58:37

know, that past traumas seems like a lot

58:37

of them that we work on it every time

58:41

they come up, they're not going away. That's for sure they still still games

58:43

coming up, but processes all getting

58:47

smaller and shorter and shorter. Every time this stuff comes up

58:48

and that's healthy, it's healthy.

58:55

Yeah. Hearing that you to experience a lot

58:56

of safety within your relationship.

59:01

So devoid of, of issues or things

59:01

that need to be worked on, but it's

59:07

like the more you do it, the more you

59:07

realize it actually is safe we don't

59:11

have many with each other.

59:13

And so I think it gives us a little

59:13

thing to kind of have our own problems.

59:17

Then it gives us space to kind of working

59:17

through our, some of our own stuff.

59:22

To be honest.

59:23

Yeah. Just been,

59:25

just been kind of nice

59:25

because what we do, isn't very taxing.

59:29

It seems like some other stuff

59:29

that's been coming up, whether we

59:33

like it or not to be dealt with. And like I said, those things

59:35

keep getting easier and easier

59:38

and less impactful every time. And

59:40

so.

59:42

And like you said, we're not using

59:42

our bandwidth and our resources, trying

59:45

to figure out how to get along with

59:45

each other, or reaching into each other.

59:48

So it's not even just getting along. It's like intimacy, which is a thing

59:50

that I feel like I didn't know what that

59:55

really felt like until this relationship

59:55

part, because we've, we, we, don't

1:00:00

always, it's not like we like think the

1:00:00

same way about things, but particularly

1:00:04

with like inner life language. I feel like we're able to really

1:00:05

understand each other on the most

1:00:09

deep, very personal things and that

1:00:09

I don't know that's bridging a gap.

1:00:16

Are we just talking about a relationship too much? Do you have other questions?

1:00:19

Is this this? I think it's good.

1:00:23

I think, I

1:00:23

think relationships are,

1:00:25

aware our deepest woundings are and

1:00:25

they are where deepest healing happen

1:00:29

and the ability to see into

1:00:29

each other, obviously, you know, that

1:00:33

corny phrase in to me, see for intimacy.

1:00:37

You see each other. And you also both know

1:00:39

yourselves pretty well.

1:00:42

And you've made a commitment

1:00:42

to stand in your own self and

1:00:47

be grounded in who you are.

1:00:50

And there's that ability to take

1:00:50

risks and say, this is who I

1:00:53

am and know that you're okay.

1:00:56

Whether the other person can meet you there or not. But it sounds like because you

1:00:58

both make room for each other.

1:01:02

There's this ability to just innately

1:01:02

kind of understand and make room and

1:01:07

work around these things and the other

1:01:07

stuff that wants to be the tornado.

1:01:11

Right.

1:01:14

We're not really kerfluffle to buy. We're like, we'll be like slightly

1:01:17

agitated by things that are

1:01:19

happening in the outside world. And then we'll just like, turn towards

1:01:20

something generative, like making

1:01:24

art or playing music or talking about

1:01:24

things that feed us or literally

1:01:29

feeding each other ourselves, or like,

1:01:29

we're just really good at pivoting.

1:01:37

We're good at pivoting. And it's just really nice because it's

1:01:38

not, it doesn't feel dead or anxious

1:01:42

to me again, not to compare it to other

1:01:42

relationships, but in those dead days,

1:01:47

which I felt like it was like the option.

1:01:49

It was like, we're either going to like

1:01:49

do things or it was going to be dead.

1:01:52

There are like little moments where I

1:01:52

think we both get a little stir crazy

1:01:55

and it's a fucking pandemic or whatever. Like there's a lot, there are a lot

1:01:57

of things at play here where maybe,

1:02:01

and it was gray and dreary and it's

1:02:01

winter, whatever color we like.

1:02:06

We maybe it was Washington yesterday

1:02:06

where like we maybe normally would have

1:02:09

gone for a drive or something, but it's,

1:02:09

it's like, it's a beautiful, rich, not

1:02:15

necessarily having anything to do rather

1:02:15

than like, I don't want to do any of

1:02:18

the things that we should be doing. Hmm.

1:02:21

Like, I don't know, look at that stuff. It's like, no, there's yeah.

1:02:24

We can just relax today and the

1:02:24

best and maybe get stir-crazy and

1:02:28

board, which is actually nice. Cause it might like we'll either

1:02:29

rest in it or it'll like, give us

1:02:34

fuel for the, you know, the right

1:02:34

kind of contrast for moving into

1:02:38

things that we want to be doing.

1:02:40

Yeah.

1:02:41

We've been

1:02:42

dreaming a lot lately and I

1:02:42

think some of the dreams that we've been

1:02:47

dreaming about, we've gotten to spots

1:02:47

where there's just like time now that

1:02:51

we have to wait to enact some of them. If we can just, again,

1:02:54

take, take time off,

1:02:57

take time off

1:02:58

yesterday from even doing a

1:02:58

lot of the dreaming that we've been.

1:03:02

And then the two of us. Allowed ourselves to have one

1:03:04

more of that way, which is

1:03:09

fun. It's amazing to feel like dreaming

1:03:09

as possible as somebody who's

1:03:14

like not really had resource or

1:03:14

time, or like whatever, emotional.

1:03:22

Support. And it's

1:03:23

different from like the

1:03:23

anxious living in the future thing.

1:03:29

it's a generative, like

1:03:33

it's gentle.

1:03:34

It's fun.

1:03:35

Yeah. That's really

1:03:36

fun. Yeah. That's exciting.

1:03:39

Vision is so important. Together.

1:03:43

I think,

1:03:44

yeah. Vision is hard to have access

1:03:44

to if you're living in trauma

1:03:48

response, like it's actually really

1:03:48

triggering to imagine things if

1:03:53

you're like in a traumatic situation.

1:03:56

Like, so I think that's why I think

1:03:56

that's part of what we're talking about.

1:04:00

Like that's, we're not coming

1:04:00

from a triggered stance.

1:04:04

We're coming from. Visioning life together and again,

1:04:06

actually taking steps towards that.

1:04:10

Yeah. Yeah. That's true.

1:04:13

Partnership.

1:04:14

Yeah,

1:04:15

I think it's good to

1:04:15

see an example of a couple doing

1:04:19

partnership and relationship in

1:04:19

a very conscious and healthy way.

1:04:24

Are you guys collabing on music lately? We

1:04:27

haven't been playing a lot of

1:04:27

music in general lately, because I think

1:04:32

we're just taking an overall pause. But, but yes,

1:04:37

we have our thoughts about

1:04:37

the creative wave and the pandemic.

1:04:45

Politics and everything we wrote,

1:04:45

both of us wrote a whole bunch, right

1:04:50

before we went into the pandemic. We both probably have an album's

1:04:53

worth honestly, of stuff that

1:04:56

we could, we could put out.

1:05:01

And so we went into the

1:05:01

pandemic, like with.

1:05:05

Kind of done with an like, and so

1:05:05

we really haven't played very much.

1:05:10

We played, we've written

1:05:10

a few new things too.

1:05:13

It's just been more like playing

1:05:13

around with different instruments

1:05:15

and sounds,

1:05:18

I started playing a

1:05:18

little bit more electric guitar

1:05:20

with our stuff,

1:05:21

instead of all, just acoustic

1:05:21

and even a song, a couple of songs.

1:05:25

So it's been more of that kind

1:05:25

of experimentation, honestly.

1:05:29

I'm working with sounds and stuff.

1:05:32

Thinking about recording, we were

1:05:32

going to go out in April and re cord

1:05:37

and do the album and blah, blah. But again, not, not bummed out

1:05:38

because that'll also happen at

1:05:42

some point it's even more feasible.

1:05:45

Now

1:05:49

it's a, it's an automatic,

1:05:49

as soon as things let up, like.

1:05:53

Yeah. So, so yeah, no again, I think

1:05:53

we've been working on stuff.

1:05:57

Yeah. But it's more like, just like honing stuff

1:06:01

in. I feel like my songs, like the way

1:06:02

that I sing my song now, and even

1:06:05

I'm working on a sound right now. And sometimes, sometimes when I'm

1:06:06

writing, I like just saying it really

1:06:10

fast and I'm finding myself like

1:06:10

slowing tilt down now rather than

1:06:15

like recording it really kind of like. Pushy.

1:06:18

And then, and then settling into it. Like, I feel like I'm like settling

1:06:20

into it and by the time we work for it,

1:06:22

it's going to be self-actualized and

1:06:22

these finalists are going to be more

1:06:27

like embodied and themselves because

1:06:27

yeah, I'm grateful for this time.

1:06:34

In essence, this has been a very hardier

1:06:34

in some ways, but like in my own personal

1:06:39

scope, And I'll admit from my stance

1:06:39

of privilege to have been able to like

1:06:44

convert my business, to being online

1:06:44

and having somehow having a food on

1:06:49

the table, like we've like made do. And yeah, but like this year,

1:06:51

actually the squeeze was right.

1:06:58

I was able to like shift things

1:06:58

that needed shifting that.

1:07:01

I don't think I would

1:07:01

have shifted without this.

1:07:04

The circumstances. And again, even though it was hard in

1:07:05

the first four or five months of like

1:07:09

adjusting were like fucking ridiculous.

1:07:12

That was ridiculous. But but I feel like actually I've been

1:07:12

able to build things that I've always

1:07:17

wanted to build that I wouldn't have

1:07:17

built if I didn't, if I didn't make

1:07:21

some of the shifts that this year

1:07:21

demanded it, they were not requested.

1:07:27

They were demanded.

1:07:31

Almost

1:07:32

like an orchestration as I

1:07:32

maybe like to say with everything.

1:07:36

I really appreciate you guys. Both of you being here and

1:07:38

Meg saying yes to my Laney.

1:07:42

Request.

1:07:43

I love, I love that you're doing,

1:07:43

I've always appreciated everything that

1:07:48

you've found to have a, so I feel like

1:07:48

your presence online really shifted.

1:07:53

What I saw was possible.

1:07:56

What I saw as possible. You're really intimate and

1:07:58

you're brave and courageous.

1:08:02

And you say the things that were really

1:08:02

hard for me to say even though my mom

1:08:07

is not really gonna like see anything

1:08:07

I do on Instagram, let's get real.

1:08:12

I feel like I'm overly bound by honor

1:08:12

to say anything that actually happened.

1:08:19

Even sometimes to myself, like,

1:08:19

I feel like I've like held myself

1:08:24

to Chris' standard of austerity

1:08:24

around like, not shaming my parents.

1:08:29

The thing is some of those things

1:08:29

need to be named and I've been in this

1:08:33

process of like acquiring my voice.

1:08:36

And you have modeled that Tabitha,

1:08:36

like you've really modeled saying the

1:08:40

things as they actually are in a pretty

1:08:40

loving and also fiercely true way.

1:08:46

And I don't know, you've, you've opened up

1:08:46

a lot for me and I really value what you

1:08:50

put online and how you put it online and

1:08:50

how caring and consistent you are in it.

1:08:54

It like has actually altered my life.

1:08:56

So, and frankly, I feel like social

1:08:56

media is what we make it and.

1:09:03

I choose to follow people that

1:09:03

are willing to actually be there.

1:09:07

And aren't just like putting on the, like

1:09:07

the show, the curated yoga pants show.

1:09:14

Like I don't care about it. I don't care about the fancy art.

1:09:17

I don't care about any of that stuff. So what I care about is we have a

1:09:19

tool that actually gives us access to.

1:09:24

Knowing how to get along with ourselves

1:09:24

and each other and the earth better.

1:09:27

And that's like all, I care about. And you were one of the very first

1:09:28

people that I found on there that I

1:09:32

was like, well, you're doing that. You're brave.

1:09:35

Okay. How can I be more brave? Like so yeah.

1:09:44

So there you're awesome.

1:09:51

It means

1:09:51

a lot,

1:09:52

but you have, you have

1:09:52

been just as much of a positive

1:09:54

and healing influence in my life.

1:09:58

And I really appreciate you.

1:10:04

, you have this commitment to becoming

1:10:04

that I love and it's really felt

1:10:10

I love those words. I don't know that I would have

1:10:12

said it like that, and I love

1:10:14

that commitment to becoming, I

1:10:14

actually wrote a chant yesterday.

1:10:18

That's

1:10:19

that?

1:10:21

That's funny as I am

1:10:21

becoming, and as I have been.

1:10:25

So we are becoming, and as we have them,

1:10:30

I feel like

1:10:30

acknowledging that space of

1:10:30

becoming keeps us humble, but also

1:10:37

like standing potentially standing

1:10:37

tall in like the moment that we're in,

1:10:40

like, like this, this is, this is it.

1:10:45

This is that. And

1:10:47

Hmm,

1:10:47

whether it's

1:10:49

before, during, after the

1:10:49

journey, and this is recognized as.

1:10:53

Yeah,

1:10:55

good spot. There are things that are diversion

1:10:56

in my personality that I feel like

1:10:59

we all are a little bit divergent

1:10:59

within, whatever band we think we are.

1:11:03

Back to this example of how I heard

1:11:03

this friend, like, do I, do I imagine

1:11:07

myself as somebody who's hurt people? Not usually, but have I heard people?

1:11:11

Absolutely. Yeah. I've absolutely heard people.

1:11:13

Did I hurt my ex-husband? Yes, I did.

1:11:16

Like, I definitely, I was not always the

1:11:16

person to have the right conditions to

1:11:23

like, be of true support to him and Yeah.

1:11:27

And that impacted him that like I had an

1:11:27

impact on him, but when it comes down to

1:11:34

my now, I'm like I have, I'm pretty well

1:11:34

versed in my, in my, in my bandwidth.

1:11:41

I'm pretty well versed in

1:11:41

like my usual pathways.

1:11:43

And I usually make kind of choices and

1:11:43

And I feel like I have room that if I

1:11:49

fuck up that I can, that I can return.

1:11:52

And that feels like good.

1:11:55

That's like, that's what I want. I want

1:12:00

fucked up. And we have returned.

1:12:02

So you guys

1:12:02

don't want to cancel 2020.

1:12:04

Is that what you're telling me?

1:12:05

I had a profound

1:12:05

experience this year.

1:12:09

I don't tend to, I don't

1:12:09

want to erase anything that's

1:12:12

happened in my life in general. And that includes this year.

1:12:15

I feel like there've been a lot

1:12:15

of, well, a lot of valuable things,

1:12:18

including an opportunity to see

1:12:18

collectively and individually where

1:12:21

we're blind and what needs attention.

1:12:23

And yeah, it's, again, it's kind

1:12:23

of interesting being a person who

1:12:28

comes from people of color, who, who.

1:12:31

Has been very shaped by that who

1:12:31

has not, I've not really had a

1:12:36

lot of privileges in my life. And yet, like this year actually has

1:12:38

moved me into some new standings and

1:12:46

like, I oddly have enough and we have

1:12:46

enough and we have each other and

1:12:54

Yeah, like being called in to like see

1:12:54

where there's a bit more work to do.

1:12:59

I'm all I'm game for that. I want to know.

1:13:02

Again, I feel like an essence of my life

1:13:02

is like, I want to get along with myself

1:13:06

and other people and this place more.

1:13:10

And if there's a way that I could be

1:13:10

more in alignment or more refined and

1:13:16

serve all of that a little bit better,

1:13:16

like I want to know about it and.

1:13:21

I'm willing to do the work of that. So maybe not all the

1:13:23

time, I definitely rest.

1:13:26

I'm definitely like lazy, occasionally

1:13:26

about things, but I feel like 2020

1:13:31

has offered a lot of opportunity

1:13:31

For refinement, not for everybody.

1:13:35

I feel like some people are just trying

1:13:35

to get by and I totally get that.

1:13:38

I feel like I've been there for most

1:13:38

of my life just trying to get by.

1:13:41

But this year, for some reason, I've

1:13:41

had circumstance where I've been able to

1:13:45

like unwind more and be of more service

1:13:45

and step into more and share more.

1:13:51

And also like I've received

1:13:51

a lot more this year too.

1:13:54

So yeah, I mean, I don't want

1:13:54

to, I don't want to erase that.

1:13:59

I don't want to cancel that. Yeah. Has that been a dumpster fire?

1:14:01

Yeah. I mean, collectively, yeah, a little

1:14:02

bit like have there been like struggling

1:14:07

moments where I'm like, I want, and I

1:14:07

can't have definitely, or like, like

1:14:13

some of the things I want, I'm like,

1:14:13

I definitely want people who were

1:14:17

more Brown and black to like have more

1:14:17

freedom to actually exist and like

1:14:21

cannot happen immediately right now. No, apparently not, but

1:14:23

like maybe we're closer.

1:14:26

Maybe we're closer to that. And are we willing to do the work of that?

1:14:32

I don't think one person can

1:14:32

answer that, but I have hope I have

1:14:35

vision with expectation of it being

1:14:35

possible, which is how I identify.

1:14:40

Is it possible? Yes. Is it going to require us to take steps?

1:14:44

Definitely. I think part of that is this, I think

1:14:46

part of taking steps, it's like.

1:14:50

Doing the healing work. I think, I feel like my most

1:14:52

activist activism is like so quiet.

1:14:57

It seems so quiet. It looks like a daily painting.

1:15:00

It looks like circle work. It looks like holding people

1:15:02

one-on-one as they acknowledged

1:15:05

and listened to themselves. Talk about their inner lives and hearing

1:15:06

stories from what I've experienced so

1:15:11

that there's some feedback or resonance. I feel like it's like

1:15:13

getting into quieter places.

1:15:17

And when it comes down to the

1:15:17

pandemic, like this just feels like

1:15:20

a rhythm that human needs needs fine.

1:15:25

But like, I feel like, yeah,

1:15:25

like we we've been here before.

1:15:30

We don't remember that

1:15:30

because we weren't here.

1:15:32

But like collectively, which I tend

1:15:32

to look at collective and like what we

1:15:36

need and like, Not like we needed to

1:15:36

be weeded out and population control.

1:15:40

I'm not so much in that camp, but like

1:15:40

it's, cause it's not really for me to

1:15:45

decide those things, but like, this is

1:15:45

what I, what I can notice is that this is

1:15:50

a pattern and isn't that interesting and

1:15:54

yeah.

1:15:56

Is it good or bad? I don't, I don't know.

1:15:58

And do we have any control over

1:15:58

it I feel like we definitely could

1:16:01

have done some things differently

1:16:01

this time, but like we didn't, so

1:16:08

yeah. Charlie

1:16:12

I think it was a real

1:16:12

opportunity for people to take a

1:16:14

break.

1:16:15

I think the whole. Planet pushed themselves too far,

1:16:17

too fast, and the whole system

1:16:23

needed to be shut down a little bit. And honestly, I honestly

1:16:26

think we back in all this, the

1:16:29

com and

1:16:31

this was all an opportunity

1:16:31

for us to, again, slow down and kind of.

1:16:37

You know, there were many parts of

1:16:37

both makes and I's life that now we

1:16:40

look back that were almost like, got

1:16:40

us ready for what's about to happen.

1:16:46

Yeah. Some of the coming in the future

1:16:47

and coming up or no different again,

1:16:52

there's an elegant nature to all this

1:16:52

and maybe it's just because that's the

1:16:55

way we're just looking at life more. What, but It's

1:16:59

unfortunate that a lot of people had to die.

1:17:01

It's super unfortunate

1:17:01

that so many people had to die

1:17:04

and, and they

1:17:04

maybe didn't have to die

1:17:07

and they didn't have to die for sure. But again,

1:17:13

I believe

1:17:13

in forces way bigger than,

1:17:13

you know, things like that then.

1:17:18

And we are, as people.

1:17:23

This

1:17:23

is really been

1:17:23

an interesting ride,

1:17:30

sad

1:17:31

for people that think

1:17:31

it's fake and help the community

1:17:39

and recognize the communities. That they're part of that

1:17:41

part makes me really sad.

1:17:44

You have an opportunity to sync

1:17:44

more community-wise and globally,

1:17:47

and he may, you know, thinking

1:17:47

more for a greater good than yeah.

1:17:51

Or on,

1:17:53

I do recognize that we

1:17:53

had, we had, you know, we, we were,

1:17:58

again, we were sort of prepared for.

1:18:01

For this in a really elegant manner. We rented this house, not

1:18:03

in the middle of nowhere

1:18:05

on the side of the street,

1:18:07

literally two weeks

1:18:07

before everything's shut down.

1:18:11

There's so many aspects. Like I said, that happened that

1:18:12

we look back and go, Holy smokes.

1:18:15

Like we lived in this apartment

1:18:15

building downtown of the

1:18:19

city two weeks before that.

1:18:21

And I can't imagine going through

1:18:21

this and that little place.

1:18:26

Yeah. And I do feel like if we do have

1:18:27

the privilege of having this

1:18:29

year worked out that like, we

1:18:29

do have a responsibility yeah.

1:18:37

Way with that. And I think there's not the

1:18:38

whole point of privilege.

1:18:41

It's not about playing small with it. It's like share it.

1:18:44

Yeah. So I feel like from this stance, I

1:18:44

feel like the CIHR has provided a lot

1:18:47

of opportunity for us to heal and to

1:18:47

now we have opportunity to, to share.

1:18:51

Yeah. Yeah. I love that. That's beautiful.

1:18:56

.

1:18:56

Charley: I think as artists

1:19:00

stage of this whole big thing.

1:19:05

So I'm just recognizing my place

1:19:05

luckily, we have created a life that

1:19:11

allows us to isolate as hard as we have

1:19:11

just been great for everything from

1:19:16

our nervous system to our nutrition

1:19:19

and making art. You're making a lot of ours. I think embodiment is

1:19:21

just so multifaceted.

1:19:24

It's coming home to yourself

1:19:24

is so almost like acid.

1:19:27

It requires a willingness to actually

1:19:27

listen and show up and turn towards

1:19:30

yourself and do the thing that your

1:19:30

actual self has asked dunno.

1:19:36

I don't, I don't have like a quippy

1:19:36

cool thing to say about embodiment.

1:19:39

No,

1:19:40

I love that. That you're being different mag.

1:19:44

Okay. No, I love that because I just like

1:19:46

having the different perspectives

1:19:50

because , I want to really impart

1:19:50

through my podcast that healing

1:19:55

looks different for everybody. It's not this cookie cutter thing.

1:19:58

And just because you're not doing

1:19:58

the Wim Hof breathing exercises or

1:20:02

cold showers or whatever doesn't

1:20:02

have to be a prescribed thing.

1:20:06

It can be you knowing yourself more

1:20:06

and that can look differently for you,

1:20:12

yeah. So I want to open up those possibilities

1:20:13

for everybody to like, yes.

1:20:17

What you do could really hit home

1:20:17

with somebody and they could be like,

1:20:20

Oh, I need to lean into that more. I am kind of already in

1:20:22

like little more, you know?

1:20:28

Yeah.

1:20:28

Yeah. And I feel like sharing. I'm so grateful for this

1:20:30

conversation and conversations

1:20:34

like this, because I feel like. When we share from our inner life, we,

1:20:36

we, we make offerings for other people

1:20:41

to have access to their inner life. Like my language, the things that I do may

1:20:42

not be the thing that you want to do, but

1:20:49

like there might be a spark that happens

1:20:49

from that, from that interaction that that

1:20:55

can grow I mean, my daily painting seed.

1:20:58

So I've had a daily practice since I was

1:20:58

17, but the daily painting didn't come

1:21:01

clear to me until I witnessed somebody

1:21:01

in the UK who was posting on their

1:21:05

Instagram 30 faces in 30 days challenge.

1:21:07

And I was like, I want to

1:21:08

do that.

1:21:09

That feels like a practice

1:21:09

that I want to lean into.

1:21:13

I've been, I had tried all kinds

1:21:13

of things ranging from writing

1:21:15

a pen tome or physical movement

1:21:15

or sketching or whatever.

1:21:20

Like visiting myself in every, in some way

1:21:20

every day, but it took me like 15 years

1:21:24

to discern where it was actually going to

1:21:24

land what it was actually gonna look like.

1:21:29

And the 30 faces in 30

1:21:29

days was my entry point.

1:21:33

And then it turned into a

1:21:33

year and now it's still going.

1:21:36

And so somebody sharing their

1:21:36

practice, I didn't want to make faces.

1:21:41

I didn't want it to be like a repeating,

1:21:41

like 30 day challenge challenge.

1:21:45

It wasn't about a challenge for me. And it wasn't about

1:21:47

faces, like their thing.

1:21:49

Wasn't my thing. But their thing totally

1:21:50

helped me drop into my thing.

1:21:53

And so yeah, but in terms of embodiment,

1:21:53

I feel like there's so many, there's so

1:21:57

many, it's necessitated multiple pathways

1:21:57

for me, like receiving care from others.

1:22:04

Listening, finding ways to

1:22:04

hear myself, to visit myself,

1:22:07

to like touch it a little bit. Maybe not get it all done.

1:22:10

I don't feel like we ever get it done. Like, I don't think I'm

1:22:13

gonna like know myself. I feel like, wow.

1:22:16

I have more of an understanding

1:22:16

of my, of my, my, you know,

1:22:20

my usual threshold, but yeah.

1:22:23

Yeah, daily painting daily painting, some

1:22:23

kind of like visitation with yourself.

1:22:28

Yes. Has room for profound movements.

1:22:32

I really actually kind of like rolling

1:22:32

around and like stretching and thinking

1:22:37

and like the coziness of it and like, If

1:22:37

I have a free morning, the likelihood that

1:22:43

I'm like up at seven, but like rolling

1:22:43

around until eight is like pretty high.

1:22:48

Yeah. Yeah.

1:22:50

Because I just like how it feels. And I, I wake up alert and kind of

1:22:52

ready for my day, but I need, some

1:22:58

transition time where I'm like, Tending

1:22:58

what my dreams were intending erection

1:23:04

for the day and tending my body. And like,

1:23:06

I do that

1:23:07

quiet time because I'm like often

1:23:07

like serving other people in my day.

1:23:13

Like I'm like either in relationship

1:23:13

or like literally serving or

1:23:17

holding space for other people. And so I feel like, yeah, I've

1:23:19

really allowed myself to saver.

1:23:26

Those kinds of transitions

1:23:26

a little bit more.

1:23:29

Yeah. Recognizing transition. The need for transition is huge.

1:23:33

And also like where I can

1:23:33

transition from work into relationship

1:23:39

and, you know, thank you Meg, for

1:23:39

being willing to whatever, it's like

1:23:43

all these spaces where we've had to. Meet and accommodate, but again,

1:23:46

I feel like we're able to meet and

1:23:48

accommodate without like losing her. Can you hear us?

1:23:53

I can hear you.

1:24:50

No. upside down.

1:26:18

Off

1:26:18

the ground.

1:28:19

yay.

1:28:22

That

1:28:22

was amazing. I like that.

1:28:24

It's on this zoom call, zoom

1:28:28

recording. That

1:28:30

was the perfect song. For this episode.

1:28:33

I had a feeling feeling it would be a

1:28:37

good fit. Thank you, Meg. Thank

1:28:40

you so much. Thank you, Charlie.

1:28:44

Yeah. Thank you, Charlie.

1:28:45

Stay on the, stay on the pulse.

1:28:48

One good thing about both your guys' work.

1:28:50

It seems like you both are

1:28:50

really on the pulse of.

1:28:53

The big picture and I really

1:28:53

appreciate that about you.

1:28:57

Thank you. I can't wait to have dinner with you guys.

1:28:59

I'll be there next

1:29:00

week. Yes, you

1:29:09

too. Thank you

1:29:10

guys. Yeah. Thank you, Tom.

1:29:14

Have a good afternoon evening. Yeah, I love you friend.

1:29:20

I love you so much. Talk to you soon. All

1:29:22

right, bye.