0:00

Welcome to the Low Carb MD Podcast.

0:03

No one is beyond help. No

0:06

one is beyond hope. As

0:08

we have always said, we are bringing you

0:10

medical information and cutting-edge science, but none of

0:13

this is medical advice.

0:15

Please seek out input

0:17

from your own doctor. Hello

0:24

and welcome back to the Low Carb MD Podcast. This

0:27

is gonna be a fun one already. I got one

0:29

of my compatriots here I could tell and we have

0:31

Tro also. And it's good that

0:33

we're all together and I'm looking forward to this.

0:36

Fun stuff. Tro, good to see you. It's gonna be awesome.

0:38

Some that I've been interacting with for a number of years.

0:40

We share similar, I think,

0:42

values and similar interests and you

0:45

know we both have some interests

0:47

in examining the supplement space and you

0:49

know certainly you know we have similar

0:51

sort of critical thinking mindset I think

0:53

and I'm very happy to have Mike

0:55

Roberto come on here. He's the CEO

0:58

of Price Plow. He's written articles that are

1:00

just fantastic that I've read and I've talked

1:02

with him about you know supplement industry in

1:04

the past and I'm just hoping he

1:06

can share all his insight and wisdom you know

1:09

over two decades working in the health and wellness

1:11

space. So Mike Roberto thanks to have you here.

1:13

Maybe you can do a better intro than we

1:15

did. Gentlemen, thank you so much. Actually before we

1:17

begin I have to thank you guys. Day

1:20

in, day out, week in, week out, year in,

1:22

year out, you guys are doing such great work

1:24

and if anyone hasn't thanked you lately I'd like

1:26

to say thank you. You guys are true spiritual

1:28

warriors and it is greatly appreciated. You

1:31

are truly changing the world so thank you so much.

1:33

Thank you for having me on but thank you for

1:35

just being you and doing what you do because you guys

1:37

are just bricks in this wall

1:39

and it's amazing to watch and so yeah

1:42

my name is Mike Roberto. I am the founder of Price

1:44

Plow. We kind of serve as thought

1:46

leaders or like scientific and regulatory

1:48

influencers kind of in the dietary

1:50

supplement space. I started in

1:53

2008 and I'll kind of give my background but

1:55

just so everyone knows before we

1:57

begin I'm not here to like shill a bunch of supplements

1:59

and If I do mention any certain brands

2:02

or ingredients, I will be stating any disclosures

2:04

of odd like I had any of our

2:06

sponsorships and stuff like that so I got

2:08

i'm gonna play a straight everything. We are

2:11

more sports nutrition heavy like I'm focusing on

2:13

performance a lot of male demographics by as

2:15

I've kind of A's data things a little.

2:17

They have gotten into other things as well

2:20

so I'm. So. Guys that the

2:22

thanks again for Have me on here when quick

2:24

question is as Dr. Brian going to be able

2:26

to stay a little bit later than pro or.

2:29

The. I can I can I'll astro for

2:31

South is accessed by some books I got

2:33

I am it's the biggest prize is a

2:35

very dizzy are grown I love it's arms.

2:38

Okay so yeah I was born at a

2:40

So I'm forty two years old right now

2:42

is born in I nineteen eighty One. The

2:44

best time to be born Italian American families

2:47

suburbs of Cleveland soaps growing up in the

2:49

eighties and nineties. As you guys know, it

2:51

was carbs. Carbs. Carbs. and then more Carbs.

2:53

Carbs. No fat, all that stuff and I'm.

2:57

And. So that kind of played into a lot

2:59

of like how i ended up getting into

3:01

the the low car space everything so growing

3:03

up pretty i'm pretty athletic person or oh

3:05

but i like to see my age and

3:07

forty two because. One of my

3:09

series is that I kind of job are seriously

3:11

say that I don't really think you should take

3:13

dietary advice from anyone under the age of forty

3:15

or so and I seriously minute because it takes

3:17

time for the toxicity to build up or as

3:19

we know like a wheelchair fallen off her on

3:22

like thirty five Forty five and would you can

3:24

do is a tonioli the same as what you

3:26

can do is is a four year old and

3:28

so I feel like I am kind of entering

3:30

a new paradigm. I feel like I'm trying to

3:32

keep in the wheels. I'm pretty well so I

3:34

get more confident with like what I talk about

3:36

but I tell it like my to continue give

3:38

my background. with that's so like a growing

3:40

up as relatively athletic had a lot of

3:43

allergies but in arm around thirty fifth grade

3:45

i was just i started gaining weight around

3:47

thirty fifth grade third and then by six

3:49

grade seventh grade i was pretty much like

3:52

full blown fat one of the fatter kids

3:54

had glasses and stuff in class now not

3:56

like obese by like what we see today

3:58

by the those standards I was one of the

4:00

bigger kids in class. And like, part of

4:02

this was, you know, like the fortified cereals

4:04

and the milk and I was eating like

4:06

three, four bowls of sugar cereal with all

4:09

that junk, like, you've heard the story and

4:11

it got me as well. Thankfully,

4:13

fortunately, I started growing out of things.

4:16

And like in the, in the late

4:18

1990s, I found swimming, and I began

4:20

leaning out getting taller. And once I

4:23

saw I was moderately decent at swimming and

4:25

everything and kind of realized in order to

4:27

stay lean, I have to like have an

4:29

extremely high activity level. And,

4:32

you know, like exercising your diet type

4:34

of situation, graduate high school in 2000. And

4:36

then I played some

4:38

club club water polo while studying engineering

4:40

in college. And that's when I was

4:42

around 2001 or so searching, you know,

4:46

the early stages of Google for some protein powder

4:48

started learning about protein. And I realized

4:50

that there was not very like it was very

4:52

unorganized and like lots of different flavors and sizes.

4:54

And I was like, there should be a price

4:56

comparison site for this. So

4:59

keep that my back pocket and graduate, I

5:01

graduated in 2005, moved south and eventually got

5:03

a sales job out in Southern California. Now,

5:06

by my mid 20s, I was kind of

5:08

like, not able to outrun the

5:10

diet as much anymore, kind of like, I

5:12

naturally fall into like kind of like the

5:14

skinny fat dad bod type physique a little bit.

5:17

And it was starting to the wheels were, you know, you

5:20

can see wheels starting to wobble a little bit, not falling

5:22

off yet, but it was kind of happening. I

5:24

wasn't really happy in corporate America, even though like Southern

5:26

California is a blast, energy levels are super high, we

5:28

were like, a lot of lot

5:30

of surfing, I got into open water swimming,

5:33

sand volleyball and stuff. And

5:35

so I take this idea to my

5:37

backpack and I start programming price plow in 2007

5:40

makeup price comparison site for protein powders and all

5:42

this stuff. And pre workout supplements,

5:44

all the fun stuff that the guys like, and

5:46

launch it in late 2008. And so

5:49

first version is always going to be bad, you

5:51

know, but it was out there. And then now

5:53

what's like, I realized you can't just have like

5:55

deals and coupons and stuff and expect Google to

5:57

magically send you traffic. So I

6:00

started looking at like, okay, who's doing what and

6:02

how, who try to engage with? And I ended

6:04

up finding this website, Mark's daily apple.com. You ever

6:06

guys, you guys ever hear of that guy? So

6:09

Mark Sisson and I read this. So it was the

6:11

end of 2008. I just get back

6:13

from Cleveland, Ohio, big

6:16

Italian, like carved out feast to

6:18

the max and I am

6:20

like going through the carb hangover. I'm just like,

6:23

yeah, I'm beat up. It's going to take weeks

6:25

for me to clear this thing out. I didn't

6:27

understand everything. I read this article on diabetes and

6:29

insulin resistance and I'm like reading this. And I'm

6:31

like, this guy's talking to me. I'm

6:33

like, I think, oh geez,

6:35

I think I have like pre diabetes here. And

6:38

so I've always like kind of been into like

6:40

evolutionary science. And so the whole primal philosophy kind

6:42

of spoke to me and like, you know what?

6:44

All right, I'm going to try this. This makes enough sense.

6:47

I go paleo in early 2000, like January 1st of 2009,

6:49

basically. And

6:51

pretty much never looked back. Like the

6:53

transformation I had, the energy levels, no

6:55

longer needed the naps fat just falling

6:57

off. Like the transformation was uncanny and

6:59

that kind of fueled my, my

7:02

low carb experience for quite a while. So

7:04

I always thank Mark Sisson for, I wouldn't

7:06

say like save my life, but I definitely

7:08

did like that man changed my life for

7:10

sure. So I say

7:12

like with price, I stay within like the sports

7:14

nutrition space. And we start realizing that

7:17

content is king or I start realizing content is king.

7:19

And I, I had a couple of like articles

7:22

go viral in terms of like blogging and everything.

7:24

So I, I start leaning into that and you

7:27

know, things go decently. Well, we ended up moving

7:29

back to Texas 2013 and around 2016, this, this

7:31

thing comes,

7:33

these supplements start coming out and they're like

7:35

in this thing called the keto diet starts

7:37

coming out. And there's, and so I was

7:40

like, okay, well, this just makes sense. You know, I understand this.

7:42

I was probably ketogenic a lot of those beach days and everything.

7:44

And, um, but I started getting into keto

7:47

because there was, there are supplements to test,

7:49

you know? So I'm like, you know, making

7:51

YouTube videos. I take some of

7:53

these supplements. I got the Precision Extra Ketone

7:55

meter, and I realized some of these supplements

7:58

are actually increasing blood glucose and dropping. Me

8:00

out of Quito's is I make some videos

8:02

a guy like many viral and our little

8:04

world and everything and I'm like aw man

8:06

like this is this is crazy it's and

8:08

so like the i am a some content

8:10

with that was dozen different amino acids and

8:12

and and on alert a lot you know

8:14

the priests and then eventually having a seizure

8:16

I'm you learn a ton about yourself and

8:18

everything. Early twenties, seventeen, My.

8:20

Wife's pregnant. We end up going to

8:23

seat or time in Austin and there

8:25

is a are a speaker. Because.

8:27

We're living off in a dead times to

8:29

a speaker name doctor Benjamin Bettman I think

8:31

he viewed as my know him and when

8:34

he does this one of his like below

8:36

epic performances it out. Great conversations, agree presentation

8:38

and I am. And then someone

8:40

else I hate. how can we value And he's

8:43

like he's only a couple of men. Twitter like

8:45

Twitter like an old twitter com for a business

8:47

or personal accounts to jump on twitter and I'm

8:49

like, oh, I see him engaging

8:51

with this guy named Dr. to throw

8:54

a. Wow. This guy

8:56

I like this is by people right here.

8:58

Start followed actually gets like as you can

9:00

say the rest is history so so thanks

9:02

are being you'd show because he's like I've

9:05

read more into this so I kind of

9:07

fell on Akita little bit i haven't your

9:09

daughter later on and Twenty seventeen in all

9:11

acts as eating more johnson of everything definitely

9:14

gain a ton of weight, stay low carbon

9:16

everything and and kind of I took i

9:18

have a slight disappearance from twitter or brought

9:21

on a partner. Really? are in late Twenty

9:23

nineteen? Really? Twenty twenty? that's band whose. Yeah

9:25

a lot of like priceless Instagram videos and everything

9:27

and we really start diving into the industry more

9:29

foley I kind of like I am. I want

9:32

to get into too much but I have. I

9:34

missed it. When twenty twenty I miss talking about

9:36

all the dies stuff that we argue about and

9:38

it with a different direction of like you know

9:40

at this is get dicey. I'm outta here time

9:43

to focus on business and and stuck with ever.

9:45

Let the next couple years and in into late

9:47

twenty twenty two and twenty twenty three I starve

9:49

find the I read by deeper into the industry.

9:51

I'm getting like way more science. yeah much what

9:54

you'd call Pubmed Warrior. And we start.

9:56

ah my rice didn't start discovering new paradigm

9:58

out there and I I come back. Twitter

10:00

and Doctor proceed me by arguing about south

10:02

or something like data olive oil, it all

10:04

that stuff and I have I see if

10:06

I guess so as though that's pretty much

10:08

like the story here to there are but

10:10

I ate within that time we we do

10:12

a lot of scientific stuff a lot of

10:14

like if you have a new ingredient will

10:16

flush it out we'll talk about it, will

10:18

get will do a long form podcast will

10:20

do the one minute video explaining it's and

10:22

then I've kind of like spill Top this

10:24

like minded might be a general thesis of

10:26

of how things should be put in general

10:28

like I'm and I can. Get into that next

10:30

punishment. The general are not always going to tell you

10:33

to take lots and lots and lots of supplements. So

10:35

like as we get older you realize I get of

10:37

We gotta worry about the long term and everything so.

10:39

So. That's my guy. Quick introduction. I'll have to

10:42

go Bobby to keep going or I've the

10:44

every question out there looked. Yeah, I've got.

10:46

I'm on this one time and I used

10:48

to be. you know, like. If. You're

10:50

I like you. I have a

10:52

or to me that that finds

10:54

the evolutionary sort of palio prime

10:56

all mindset the know little bit

10:58

less attractive like the natural exists

11:00

in a chart. so it's I've

11:02

always had a hard time you

11:05

know with supplementation and then. You.

11:07

Know I changed. In a

11:09

even with I things like testosterone and

11:11

things like been a Magnesium and says

11:13

in a hormones for women you know

11:15

a lot of these things I I

11:17

at first I was you know ah

11:19

a more apprehensive about because the same

11:21

things I think that you may have

11:23

an app on some box but then

11:26

you look at it and a segway

11:28

the second magnesium has been taken out

11:30

of our food supply. Okay our hormones

11:32

have come down over the last fifty

11:34

years right? Unexplainable unit, public slain by

11:36

metabolic syndrome and really crappy food. Mormons

11:38

in else. And then you

11:40

know parent is like always seconds in

11:42

a maybe we shouldn't use fear of

11:44

the some to school sake of fearing

11:46

it you know and that's you know

11:48

And then you get into this whole

11:51

world of like are the supplements actually

11:53

what they say they are. you

11:55

know now you start to embrace supplementation

11:57

i did at least and then i'm

12:00

but wait a second, how do

12:02

I know what they say is in the bottle is actually in

12:04

the bottle? Then you go down that

12:06

rabbit hole of what are the contaminants? What are

12:08

actually in them? What's

12:10

the heavy metals? If you look

12:12

at protein, maybe you could talk

12:14

a little bit about that. Vitamins,

12:17

the contaminants, the protein, the BPA,

12:19

the plastics. Then you

12:21

go even further and further. Wait a second. What about

12:23

my olive oil? Wait a second. What are they injecting

12:25

in the meat that I get from New Zealand or

12:27

whatever to make it look more red? Now

12:29

all of a sudden, it's like you feel like you

12:32

have a tinfoil hat on because you

12:34

actually just want to know everything.

12:37

Yep. Okay. To speak

12:39

on that, when I started this in 2008,

12:41

the industry is nothing, nothing, nothing like it

12:43

is now. We have improved by so many

12:46

leaps and bounds. When people say the

12:48

solvent industry is not regulated, that couldn't

12:50

be any more false. It is definitely

12:53

regulated. We could talk about enforcement. That's

12:55

sometimes the issue, but there are definitely

12:57

lots of regulations, laws,

12:59

guidelines, everything making it. We

13:04

don't have a business affiliation with this company, but

13:06

I know the CEO pretty well. I could just

13:08

say, when in doubt, now

13:11

foods. They test everything. They

13:14

will test other people's stuff. I had a

13:16

meeting with our Senator, Senator Mark

13:18

Wamullen and Jim Emme, the CEO of Now

13:21

Foods. Basically, one of the issues is that

13:23

Amazon is selling a lot of the expensive

13:25

ingredients. They go and test them and they're

13:27

not there. I trust Now

13:30

Foods with everything. The

13:32

orange bottle, if you're

13:34

not sure, then you can check them

13:36

out. Other than that, we

13:38

start seeing what manufacturers, what contract

13:40

manufacturers who are the good

13:42

guys. We built up this network of good guys

13:45

and maybe not so good guys in our

13:47

space. Who's testing? Who might not do as

13:49

much testing? We know where some of the

13:51

bodies are buried. Long

13:55

story short, one of the great ways of

13:57

determining, if someone posts a third-party test, this

13:59

is a an affiliate disclaimer, Revive MD

14:01

is a great company that has a lot of

14:03

stuff like their magnesium glycinate. They'll post third party

14:05

lab tests. We work with them, good stuff. Same

14:08

things of course with like now foods. But

14:11

if they're not doing that level, you

14:13

know, if they're not doing, if they're not posting third party

14:15

lab tests, you could look for

14:17

any manufacturer that's got NSF certified or

14:19

NSF certified for sport. If that

14:21

logo is on the label, that means they're at a

14:23

legit manufacturer. No, you're not just gonna get that in

14:26

just some junk manufacturer. They will, they come in there

14:28

and they audit. Also, there's a really good for like

14:31

drug tested athletes. BSCG is

14:35

they test for banned substances control group, I

14:37

think, and so they test probably more than

14:39

anything. And then also informed sport, informed choice.

14:41

So you might not be a drug tested

14:43

athlete, but if you see like those labels,

14:45

then you know that like then it's gonna be

14:47

pretty legit. So that's kind of my thing, but

14:50

yeah, like back in the day, things were a

14:52

lot dirtier and we've definitely come along as an

14:54

industry and we've kind of, and we

14:56

couldn't do this model back in the day. Like we

14:58

do have sponsored content on our site. Back in the

15:00

day of 2008, I couldn't do

15:03

that because there weren't enough brands. There was like

15:05

one brand that was testing stuff. So that's

15:07

the exciting thing. And it's at the point now where

15:09

with these brands and where I know that they're manufacturers,

15:11

sometimes I can't disclose them. I trust them more than

15:14

the food. Like I've never seen a lab test for

15:16

that Oreo cookie, but I

15:18

have seen lab tests on magnesium glycinate, 99.8%

15:21

pure or whatever. So that's

15:23

definitely an important thing. So those are

15:25

some of my like real quick guidelines

15:29

and Burberry might be an ingredient we're gonna talk

15:31

about later. Like now food's tested some of those and

15:33

a lot of those that you see on Amazon aren't

15:36

so good. So you gotta stick with the

15:38

brands that are too big to get sued.

15:42

We've seen, I've used Consumer Lab, which

15:44

is not for profit, like

15:48

look at the labels at least and

15:50

looking for contaminants. I've also used the

15:53

Clean Label Project, which I hope you talk about.

15:57

In 2018 and consumer reports going on

15:59

in 2018. 2019 looking

16:01

for protein the brands of protein and the

16:03

contaminants in them. We also use lab door

16:05

You know which is these are all people

16:08

who do third-party testing Do you have any

16:10

other place to go to see if your

16:12

brand is supplement is like is

16:14

a high quality supplement Should you just come to

16:17

your website and it's better? Where you know you

16:19

can I mean our blog gets the most traffic we have

16:22

But in general like our site's gonna lift anything

16:24

We're gonna we we still do have the price

16:26

comparison stuff where we send you to various retailers

16:29

And there might be some stuff that is

16:31

less savory on our site So I'm not gonna say we

16:33

are not like in a lab door

16:35

where we are only listing stuff that's been

16:37

tested Unfortunately, we don't have that I am

16:39

into the testing stuff, but that's just not

16:41

the trajectory I've kind of gotten more into

16:43

the science, but less into the testing I

16:45

think like you've listed kind of the between

16:48

the two things I listed and you listed I think

16:50

we're pretty much in good footing right

16:52

there. So yeah So

16:54

the other issue is cost like you okay Well if

16:56

I may take berberine like drive to spend this huge

16:59

amount of money on this brand or how as or

17:01

a cheaper brand that's comparable you

17:03

know those kind of things is that You

17:05

know in order to help the consumer out because

17:07

some of these supplements can get expensive you're taking

17:10

it all the time Yeah, I mean a lot

17:12

of this marketing because you know the study Oh

17:14

that more expensive stuff is more attractive or anything.

17:16

I mean, that's right. I get back to know

17:18

foods really In

17:20

the case of berberine There are

17:22

there's another ingredient that we we do

17:24

promote that I highly believe in that's

17:26

a berberine metabolite that gets converted back

17:28

into berberine I'm a big fan of that

17:31

I don't know if you want to like dig into the science of that like we

17:33

can we can do that, right? Okay, I'll just play

17:35

the troll later after we're done recording Okay,

17:39

well first okay I gotta like first like

17:41

kind of like give my general thesis on

17:43

things is like with some like notable exceptions

17:46

In terms of like certain minerals and stuff I

17:48

want to say that we've kind of we've become

17:50

more toxic than deficient and so with a lot

17:52

of stuff So that's the first thing and like

17:54

and so when we are doing stuff When

17:57

anyone's like doing something to get more healthy,

17:59

you're just generally either more

18:01

additive or subtract. And so like,

18:04

in the salt in the space by inherently

18:06

by nature, we were kind of more additive.

18:08

But like, as I've gotten older, like I've

18:10

said, like, I've become a little bit more

18:12

subtractive, you guys seem a little bit subtractive

18:14

in the way that you know, you have

18:16

a demographic who's insulin resistant, or like carbohydrate

18:18

sensitive, or whatever, and you subtract the carbs.

18:20

So I've kind of become more on

18:23

that, on that wavelength of being more subtractive

18:25

and adding just like one thing at a

18:27

time. And then and

18:29

then after that, the reason

18:31

is like, I've gotten more into

18:34

liver health. And I don't, I don't, I

18:36

don't pretend to know everything about the

18:38

liver. But like, in general, the

18:41

liver is the seed of all health to me.

18:43

And if you have a sick liver, chances are

18:46

your insulin is resistant to sick. If you have

18:48

a healthy liver, chances are you're doing pretty good

18:50

health wise too. And the liver is it's going

18:52

to filter process and sometimes store a lot of

18:55

the metabolic stuff, the waste, the trash, whatever it

18:57

is that you deal with. And basically, nearly everything

18:59

is going to go to the liver. Now, the

19:01

reason I bring this up is like, every

19:04

time you decide to add something new to your diet, you

19:06

have to like consider is the liver, what's this going to

19:08

do? You know, is this worth the cost? Like, it's more

19:11

and more thing for my liver to do? Do I want

19:13

to do that? Or do you want my liver to get

19:15

on with like, you know, getting rid of fatty liver and

19:17

stuff? So you so that's kind of where I look at

19:19

things is liver comes first, and that's

19:22

kind of led to like some of these dietary

19:24

shifts. And then I look at things like beyond

19:26

that, I look at fertility,

19:28

and then performance. So liver fertility and

19:30

performance in that order. So like, if,

19:34

if something is bad for your fertility,

19:36

chances are it's bad for your health

19:38

and that aspect. And on the

19:40

other side, like if something and so being in the

19:42

sports nutrition side of the thing we like we like

19:44

performance. So if something might boost performance, but

19:47

it doesn't harm the liver fertility, there's a good

19:49

chance I'm going to want to tinker with it.

19:51

So like a couple of examples, in my opinion,

19:53

and I don't like I'm not so like an

19:56

example is caffeine, for instance, I don't think there's

19:58

enough data to show that caffeine is to

20:00

the liver in reasonable amounts. I don't

20:02

think it affects fertility, otherwise none of us might

20:04

be here. So but

20:06

it definitely does enhance performance. So that's something

20:09

that I'm willing to tinker with. On the

20:11

other hand, like I'm not going to judge,

20:13

I never judge, I'm not on TRT or

20:15

testosterone. But I think that testosterone, it can

20:17

harm fertility, it can harm the liver if

20:20

done improperly and everything. And so in that

20:22

case, it's something that I personally am not

20:24

going to do, at least for another 10

20:26

years. And so that's like,

20:28

those are some of my like, kind of my

20:31

mantra of like my thinking of, should we be

20:33

considering something? And then beyond that, muscle meat rules,

20:35

as I think you guys have talked about plenty,

20:38

ruminant meat, especially muscle meat, like, there's so

20:40

many supplements that you probably don't need to

20:42

take, range, it depends on how much you

20:44

eat, but like ranging from the creatine, the

20:46

carnitine, choline, B vitamins, taurine, protein

20:48

powders, even like you if you eat enough muscle meat, you're

20:50

probably not going to have to do all this. So and

20:54

then we're left with a lot of the most important

20:56

minerals. So that's kind of like what I want

20:58

to like get out before talking about

21:00

berberine. But um, and

21:02

the next thing I really want to emphasize, because

21:05

I do have like a business relationship, is that

21:07

nobody, you could repeat after me,

21:10

nobody has an herb deficiency. Okay,

21:12

like, you don't have, you

21:14

don't have a berberine deficiency, there's

21:17

no berberine deficiency. Okay. So like, we're looking

21:19

for this to like support, to supplement the

21:21

diet. And we can talk about like the

21:23

regulatory definitions of supplement, but we're looking for

21:25

something to supplement the diet. But it's

21:27

sometimes like this is I'm not, I don't think

21:30

people should plan on being on berberine for life,

21:32

you can get a desired effect out of it.

21:34

And I do believe in that effect strongly. But

21:36

it's like, let's be very clear

21:38

that you know, you don't have an

21:40

herb deficiency, you might have like whatever

21:42

magnesium deficiency. So, so

21:45

berberine is really cool because it doesn't

21:47

nutrients I need those that I was

21:49

told I need phytonutrients. So yeah, and

21:51

I realize I mean, yeah, I am.

21:53

So controversial take though, I have jumped

21:55

on the fiber train. So so

21:59

yeah, we I I'm happy to get it to all this. Yeah,

22:02

with berberine, let's talk about

22:04

berberine. Let's talk about, like, let's take one step

22:06

back because I want to make sure we get

22:08

this done. Liver, you know, liver,

22:11

I think we all agree liver toxicity is a

22:13

big issue, fatty liver disease. I'll never

22:15

forget being at conference. I was the new kid and, you

22:17

know, Rob Cyvis, who's one of the smarter guys around is

22:19

on one side. Gary Townsend, yeah, they're one we're

22:21

talking about fatty liver disease and how to cure it. And,

22:24

you know, all these people are talking about all the drugs are developing and all

22:26

this stuff. And Rob Cyvis is doing his little working

22:28

looks at me and goes, yeah. I don't

22:30

do surgery on people with fatty liver disease. And he does

22:32

liver transplant and like gastric bypass. So I'm like, all your

22:34

patients have fatty liver disease. What are you talking about? He

22:36

goes, yeah, we resolve it first, then do surgery. How do

22:39

you do that? Two days of

22:41

keto, one day of fasting. Awesome.

22:43

100% reverse. You're like, why are we looking

22:46

for a drug for this? Like that's it. And

22:48

Gary Townsend said BS. That's not true. And he

22:50

goes, okay, let me show you my data. And he shows the

22:52

liver biopsy pre and post. You're like, holy cow, this is ridiculous,

22:54

right? At that time, I was like, oh my gosh, there's more

22:56

to this thing. But the liver toxicity,

22:58

I mean, I see it all the time with, you

23:00

know, poor liver health. And so

23:03

are there any supplements that

23:05

we can add in when we're changing lifestyle that

23:07

really do help with liver toxicity or move? Yeah,

23:11

yeah, it's more about a removal. I

23:14

think you could look into NAC. That's

23:17

one that kind of has been shown to

23:19

help, but like, especially like for it.

23:22

So NAC, the cysteine, it

23:24

helps you produce more glutathione, which helps you

23:26

remove a lot of the acid

23:28

aldehyde, which might be familiar for people who

23:31

deal with hangovers and stuff. It's not the

23:33

alcohol that hurts you. It's the acid aldehyde

23:35

that's left over. So sometimes like there's some

23:37

support. But again, we're like doing all this

23:39

additive stuff. In my opinion, from what I'm

23:42

starting to realize, it is actually like one

23:44

of the things to start to avoid is

23:47

to be aware of the fat soluble vitamins and

23:49

the heavy metals. And I think that we're getting

23:51

to a toxicity situation. And over the last over

23:53

the last year, I've been on a pretty low

23:55

vitamin A diet. I've I've gone down the rabbit

23:57

hole and it has changed a lot. lot

24:00

of things for me. And I think that if you look at the

24:02

data and the data is all over the place, I'm going to be

24:04

putting it into like one big thing. A lot

24:06

of people, there's too much talk about like

24:09

a lot of about people being deficient. That's

24:11

not the case. Most people are vitamin A

24:13

toxic. And when you're vitamin A toxic, things

24:16

start to fall apart. And it just

24:18

happens slowly over the course of

24:20

time. And you could track it through. It's

24:22

tough to track though, it is very tough

24:24

to measure. And that's like, that's the thing.

24:26

But you can track it through so

24:29

many different variables. But like the retinol

24:31

binding protein four, for instance, is highly

24:33

associated with problems

24:36

in fatty liver, as well as, you know,

24:38

diabetes, higher blood sugar, insulin resistance, lower testosterone,

24:40

like the whole metabolic gamut and everything. So

24:43

one of the things I start thinking about

24:45

is like, if you get your serum retinol

24:47

tested, and the serum retinol is going to

24:49

stay within a range. But if you have

24:52

a relatively high or you're not on a

24:54

low serum retinol level, and your RBP4 is

24:56

kind of high, like, I'd

24:58

start looking at getting rid of getting rid of

25:01

vitamin A and I can kind of like tear

25:03

through that. But so yeah, so I'm more of

25:05

a remover. And I've even, and

25:08

this is going to be a controversial take, I don't

25:10

I'm not going to go hard on the paint on

25:12

this. I've gotten rid of vitamin D from my diet.

25:14

And that was because of calcification and joint pain. And

25:17

so a lot of people are dealing with joint issues,

25:19

I think like we kind of got out of control

25:21

on the vitamin D side of things with with

25:24

in 2020. And what's funny

25:27

is that if you lower your vitamin A

25:29

levels, vitamin A and D are are

25:31

antagonists of each other. So are

25:34

we really vitamin D deficient? Or

25:36

are we vitamin A toxic? And I'm going

25:39

on the latter of those two, I think

25:41

we're vitamin A toxic, things start to resolve

25:43

when you start getting rid of antagonist. So

25:45

it's not always about like, add more of

25:47

this is sometimes about remove some of that.

25:49

But for me is like action, Mike. Yeah.

25:51

If we're subtracting vitamin A, how do we

25:53

decrease our vitamin A intake? Oh,

25:56

that's that's where we're going to have some battles because the

25:58

main one I had to remove was eggs. And

26:00

so egg yolks was the main one. But

26:02

basically, a lot of like, pork, dairy, eggs

26:04

is gonna are going to be the top

26:07

three for a lot of people that Paul

26:09

you and then you have the best, then

26:11

those are the animal sources that have actual

26:13

retinol retinol esters in them. The

26:15

plant based sources are more like pro

26:18

vitamin A carotenoids, anything orange or yellow,

26:20

sweet potatoes, carrots, carrots aren't even supposed

26:22

to be orange. That's a whole other

26:24

story. Carrots should be white, eat the white

26:26

carrots. But, but yes, anything

26:28

with lots of beta carotene. And that's kind

26:30

of like part of the supplement industry, where I

26:33

started going down this rabbit hole. I

26:36

realized way back when I was writing that

26:38

when I was making the first version of

26:41

price plow, I was

26:43

doing like a little bit of research on each category.

26:45

And I wrote, like pretty much

26:47

like word for word, I said, like,

26:50

beware, or like do not, what

26:52

was it? I mean, do not take beta carotene

26:54

if you are a smoker. Because at that time,

26:57

there was a lot of research on beta carotene,

26:59

which is the pro vitamin A plant,

27:02

plant version of vitamin A

27:05

with smokers causing all sorts of all cause mortality

27:07

and like just like the numbers are through the

27:09

roof. So I wrote that and I have it

27:11

on archive.org. And so I remember

27:13

this as I start learning about about vitamin A,

27:15

which was from a good friend slash employee of mine,

27:17

started telling me about this. I'm like, Yeah, I

27:19

did write about this. And like, when we start writing

27:22

about vitamin A, we never like for skin supplements, we

27:24

never had like that much good stuff to like,

27:26

we never found that much great stuff. Like, I know

27:28

it can like melt your skin on a face melt

27:30

and everything with like, if you do a topical,

27:33

but it's supplementally, I never had like a

27:35

ton of good stuff. So it's like, okay,

27:37

this kind of makes sense. You start looking

27:39

at it. And the beta carotene is now

27:42

since then we have multiple meta analyses that

27:44

are showing like increased all cause mortality, lung

27:46

cancer mortality, bone fractures, the big thing more

27:48

arthritis. And so I'm like, Oh, man, like

27:51

things have evolved. But I remember like digging

27:53

into this years ago, so it started like

27:55

all coming together. And so I, I'm

27:58

more on the removal side of things. And

28:00

if concern about vitamin D, like I get tons of sunshine,

28:03

I love swimming outside still. There's

28:05

vitamin D lamps and stuff. I

28:07

would rather do that than take

28:09

something that could potentially cause

28:12

bone issues or calcification. That's my take. That's

28:14

going to be controversial, but I'm not a

28:16

vitamin D guy. I'd rather use

28:19

the sun lamp. And I

28:21

have some people coming to me around my

28:23

age in the industry. They're getting

28:25

bone bumps and stuff. And I'm like, that's

28:27

calcification. And if you look at like vitamin

28:29

D is actually used as rat poison, and

28:32

it kills the rats in

28:34

higher doses, like very high doses, of course,

28:36

but it kills the rest through a calcification

28:38

process. And since this is a fat

28:40

soluble, this is a fat soluble

28:42

molecule, I get concerned that

28:44

we are slowly accumulating all of these levels,

28:46

vitamin A fat soluble again. And then the

28:49

third one, I think is

28:51

less controversial. A lot of people having

28:53

gone down this is copper. Copper is

28:55

also fat soluble, it leads to infertility.

28:57

I think it's in like the IUD

28:59

rings and everything. Astrogenic, obesogenic, and like

29:01

people get anxious and like cancer cells

29:03

accumulate it. And so I've

29:06

gone from adding all these

29:08

things to first removing these things. And as

29:10

I've removed vitamin A from my diet, I

29:12

have been able to add more carbs in.

29:15

I'm probably one of the higher carb

29:17

users that you've had on recently. And so that's

29:19

been like this big shift where I'm like, oh,

29:21

I lost eggs. But I

29:23

got oats, white rice, bananas,

29:27

and apples back. And then that's fixed

29:29

some of the potassium issues. So I

29:31

know it shows like, shows not

29:33

like a little part. Yeah, but no, it was

29:36

so like, um, stop

29:38

recording. Yeah. Jack,

29:40

Jack, don't edit that out. Jack,

29:42

you know, and that's funny. It's like the potassium issues.

29:44

Like it's always been funny to me as a doc.

29:46

I'm like, how can they recommend all the doctors like

29:48

you have to eat more bananas, your potassium is low.

29:50

Like why don't they give them avocados?

29:53

Zucchini. Zucchini. Yeah.

29:56

Yeah. They're expensive too, but

29:58

I'm in California. So, I

30:00

mean, part of the time any of the

30:02

squashes, you know, I have tons of potassium.

30:05

Well, supposedly, supposedly. Yeah. Well, one of

30:08

the things you start seeing when you're

30:10

in the vitamin A rabbit hole is

30:12

that vitamin A actually blocks potassium channels.

30:14

So we see like right now, there's

30:16

a surge of trends of

30:18

these hydration supplements. I'm sure you guys may

30:20

have seen like Logan Paul's prime drink or

30:22

whatever. It's like all potassium and no sodium.

30:24

And like in the FDA doesn't want you

30:27

actually having more than 99 milligrams of potassium

30:29

in a single capsule because like there were

30:31

concerns about cardiovascular risk. Well, these people are

30:33

taking these kids are taking these like hydration

30:37

drinks with tons of potassium. No one's

30:39

having adverse events because I think we

30:41

are so potassium deficient. We have to

30:43

like and we're so overloaded and magnesium

30:45

deficient, right? If you don't have magnesium,

30:47

you're not storing potassium. You just

30:49

gotta get lost. Right. So yeah. And so they

30:51

all work together. And so like, that's where I'm

30:53

starting to like piece these things together. And it's

30:56

all like starting to make sense. So rather than,

30:58

yeah, I like potassium. And I think like if

31:00

you're low on energy, taking potassium is one of

31:02

the first things that do the problem is that

31:04

most of the potassium foods, most foods have more

31:06

potassium than sodium are, are going to be a

31:08

little bit carby like the ones I listed or at

31:11

least the fruits and those are the fun ones. So

31:13

that's where that's where like, yeah, I cause a little

31:15

bit of a little bit of trouble here. But I

31:18

don't think you do because you're metabolically healthy. It's different

31:20

than our 350 pound diabetic with sugars of 400. And

31:22

in that case we go, okay, let's not worry about

31:24

let's get the sugars down first. And then, you know,

31:27

I think a lot of people can get more into

31:29

the car, like Sean Baker, if you want to have

31:31

carbs, sometimes you think that's going to do anything to

31:33

him. I mean, it's not a big deal because he's

31:35

metabolically healthy. Right. So I think those are, those are

31:38

all issues. And it's funny because I always think about

31:40

it from a perspective of, okay,

31:42

God made us and all these people that all of our

31:44

ancestors weren't taking supplements for all this stuff. They were going

31:46

out in the sun and they were relaxing, having a good

31:49

time. They didn't go, Oh, let me take my vitamin D

31:51

and let me take my zinc, right? Or copper. So I'm

31:53

hearing people go, Oh, I take copper and I feel great.

31:55

It's like, well, copper is causing it. I mean, it's just

31:57

weird that people are supplementing stuff

31:59

that could hurt them, right,

32:01

in large amounts. Like some people are like, I want my vitamin

32:03

D of level 140. Like, I don't think

32:06

that's a good idea probably, right? We don't want your insulin

32:08

too lower, too high, once you're in the right spot. Right.

32:10

Yeah. And so for those

32:13

people, obviously, we're always going to agree that

32:15

diet comes first and stuff. Burberry does become

32:17

like a pretty cool tool at that point.

32:19

Like the mechanism, it upregulates AMP-K,

32:21

which we like kind of say is like

32:23

the we need now, we need energy now

32:26

enzyme. And it gets things going. So

32:28

a lot of the stuff that we talk about, magnesium,

32:30

potassium, zinc, you just

32:32

mentioned, huge zinc picolinate fan. It

32:36

gets to the point where there's too much

32:38

data to ignore. Creatine is one of these

32:40

that we always argue about with the governments

32:42

and stuff and mainstream media. But there's too

32:44

much data to ignore. And so berberine is

32:46

almost like getting to that point. There is.

32:49

And berberine has an effect on the gut

32:51

microbiome also, right? Yeah. That might be the

32:53

major benefit. Yeah.

32:56

But it also, in order to convert

32:59

it into properly ingested, though,

33:01

you do need to have like, you'll do better

33:03

if you have a healthy gut. So there is

33:05

a bit of a berberine paradox that we sometimes

33:07

talk about. And that's where we work around it

33:09

by using what's known as dihydroberberine. So what happens

33:11

is berberine, so

33:13

yeah. So there are like multiple meta-analyses where

33:15

berberine has been shown to

33:18

reduce fat and to improve insulin sensitivity. There's

33:20

a study where 1.5 grams a day, which

33:22

is a lot, outperform metformin.

33:24

So it's really impressive.

33:27

What happens is that berberine in the gut

33:31

converts it to dihydroberberine. That gets

33:34

in through the

33:36

lining. And then the dihydroberberine gets converted

33:38

back to berberine in the plasma. So

33:41

what some very smart people did is

33:44

they said, OK, well, they patented taking

33:46

dihydroberberine as a supplement. And that's known

33:48

as, this is the affiliation disclaimer,

33:51

that's known as glucovantage, sold an

33:54

ingredient supplier called NNB nutrition. And

33:56

so it's just dihydroberberine. It kind

33:58

of skips a step. And

34:00

it enables people to have not have to take like 1.5

34:02

grams a day, which could blast

34:04

your gut. You can get away with like, honestly,

34:06

I'll be like for me, 200 milligrams

34:09

of this stuff per day, I couldn't gain

34:11

weight if I tried. It's like, it's pretty

34:14

insane. So I am a fan of this,

34:16

but like with the disclaimer that you

34:18

don't have a berbering deficiency, we're

34:21

almost looking for like, I hate to

34:23

say, I have a, almost like a drug like Ben, you know, a

34:25

fact out of this. And I think

34:27

if you are in a slump or if you're

34:29

trying to like, trying, and it works

34:31

best, it makes you more insulin sensitive. It's,

34:35

it works best if you're doing resistance training, like

34:37

everything else does in the world, you can, if

34:39

you are going to just like take berbering and

34:41

not work out and go eat 10 pounds of

34:43

ice cream, you're going to make your fat more

34:45

insulin sensitive. Just get it. They can do the

34:47

exact opposite. You want like taking testosterone and sitting

34:49

on your butt all day is like, okay, like

34:52

one of my patients that I've been taking steroids, he didn't

34:54

do anything. I was like, were you working out? No. Well,

34:56

uh, it's more to the

34:58

equation, right? So yeah, that's true.

35:00

And what's the mechanism of this,

35:02

uh, the, um, uh, dihydro

35:04

berbering? Is it lowering insulin levels? Is that

35:06

what it's doing? It's making

35:09

more insulin sensitive. Yeah. So, I

35:11

mean, it's upright as upregulating a

35:13

couple of like the enzymes, AMP

35:15

activated protein kinase, adiponectin, I think,

35:18

um, are the two main ones that it

35:20

upregulates. And, um, and

35:23

from there it increases the

35:25

glucose response, I think, and uptake.

35:27

I'm not sure if it actually,

35:29

I'm sure there's a thought about, that's

35:31

what they thought about metformin, you know, the

35:33

MP kinase, like that sort of pathway, increasing

35:36

insulin sensitivity, right? But,

35:38

you know, decreasing gluconeogenesis to deliver

35:41

until they labeled glucose. And,

35:43

and then they found with metformin, Brian, I

35:46

don't know if I, you know, the study,

35:49

you know how metformin works. It

35:51

makes you out glucose. It

35:54

literally makes you, they radio labeled,

35:56

they radio labeled glucose. And

35:59

in the turn. terminal ileum where the B12

36:01

deficiency comes from, basically glucose

36:03

is pouring out. So

36:05

they may be 12 deficiencies happening. Yeah,

36:08

over the long term. It's so

36:10

it's actually it's like that Shilty 2 inhibitors,

36:12

but it's making you poop out. You

36:15

know, it's making you poop out sugar and

36:17

all the GI side effects, right? So

36:19

we didn't know this until this past

36:21

year. I'm convinced berberine is probably the

36:24

same thing. You know, I wouldn't.

36:27

Yeah, I think it's binding in the gut and washing it

36:29

through. No, no, it's actually

36:31

I think it's, you know, we don't

36:33

know what exactly, but glucose is just

36:36

born out of the. So

36:40

probably, you know, maybe some intestinal

36:42

permeability, who knows, maybe some, you

36:45

know, and that's how it makes people more insulin

36:47

sensitive, just like the issue. Till the lower your

36:49

sugars that way and then lowering your insulin. Bingo.

36:53

Yeah, yeah. Interesting quotes. Brian, you

36:55

come up with something smart. Once in a

36:57

while, I guess. It's

37:00

been interesting watching some of these influencers do

37:02

a turn on the metformin thing. So like,

37:04

with the exercise, yeah, and impedes some of

37:07

the benefit of exercise, right? What do you

37:09

think about that? Those kind of comments? Me?

37:13

I say my I say my lane, I'm not

37:15

going to go too much into into metformin. I'm

37:17

not into the GLP one agonist or anything like

37:19

that. But I think that you

37:22

got to do this through diet. And

37:24

to me, the missing link, in my opinion,

37:26

this new paradigm is going to be chasing

37:30

chasing vitamin A toxicity. That's that's really

37:32

what I think is going to be

37:34

the next step of fixing

37:36

a lot of people and everything. But before

37:38

that, like, yeah, there's a lot of

37:40

other good things. You've mentioned magnesium. That

37:43

as well. So a lot

37:45

of things like so I do think that like you mentioned pooping.

37:47

So like, we got to we got to talk about it. Because

37:50

if you're trying to get stuff out of your system, I want

37:52

it coming out through the poop. I

37:54

think that's a good idea. But it shouldn't be used as

37:56

a cheat code to add more sugar, of course. we

38:00

were talking about magnesium, I think

38:02

that magnesium is so important and

38:04

you have to like clarify which

38:06

magnesiums we're talking about though and

38:09

I'm not against using some of the cheaper

38:11

magnesiums that don't actually go into your body

38:13

like magnesium oxide, magnesium citrate, those might not

38:15

exactly be absorbed very well but they are

38:17

great for passing stool. So if you need

38:19

a little bit of help with that, I

38:21

have some magnesium citrate powder around if

38:23

it is needed and it hasn't been. But I think

38:25

like there's just too much data, you've

38:28

seen it, it's out of the boots. Magnesium oxide

38:30

is a great way to poop more. I mean

38:32

milk and magnesium is like the time tested resolution

38:35

of constipation. That doesn't mean

38:37

it's getting into your stores

38:39

of magnesium. 100%

38:42

and they don't teach us in med school, that's

38:44

the other problem. You probably know more about this

38:46

than me and Brian do. We're

38:49

digging into it. Yeah, I'm digging into it. Maybe just me, not

38:51

Brian. Yeah, well it's

38:53

tough to be in all these different worlds. You guys are like

38:56

the best at what you do. And

38:59

so like that's the 95, I'm the extra 5%.

39:02

So that's where we come in. That's

39:04

why I appreciate you having me here.

39:06

Now with magnesium, I do like before

39:08

bed, magnesium glycinate. That's

39:10

bound to glycine. The glycine, the gut's not

39:13

great at absorbing minerals. It is good at

39:15

absorbing amino acids. So we kind of Trojan

39:17

horse the magnesium onto the glycine, pull

39:19

it in, you're gonna get better.

39:21

And then the glycine itself is

39:23

pretty good for like anti-anxiety kind

39:25

of downer, neurotransmitter type stuff. And

39:27

so I like that before bed,

39:30

but here's the kicker that's not

39:32

supplement industry, topical magnesium

39:34

and magnesium chloride lotions. There is

39:36

no affiliation on this. There's

39:38

a couple of brands. Life Flow has some stuff

39:40

on Amazon. I got one that smells like vanilla

39:42

is pretty good. And then putting like maybe, you

39:44

gotta rub it in and everything. But I swear

39:46

if you got a sore muscle, try

39:49

this vanilla scented or

39:51

just the regular Life Flow magnesium chloride. And

39:53

then one of the people in the low

39:55

vitamin A community that I follow, Dr. Gar

39:57

Smith, he's got the nutrition detective brand. Um,

40:00

where, and I haven't tried it yet, but he's

40:02

got even more magnesium per like quarter teaspoon or

40:04

whatever. And so topical magnesium,

40:06

I think is vastly underrated. A lot of people

40:08

take magnesium baths. You could do, I

40:10

prefer, I prefer magnesium chloride for

40:13

topical, but I've found a lot of

40:15

good success with that. And I still

40:17

do the magnesium glycinate before bed as

40:19

well. It's tough to measure. Um, is

40:21

it magnesium chloride? Is that, is that

40:23

a, like a lotion? So

40:26

yeah, there's magnesium chloride lotions. Wow. All

40:28

right. Cool. Life flow

40:30

on Amazon. Funny is what we're talking about is I had a patient,

40:32

she was having a bunch of leg cramps and, and

40:35

her husband, and she's older and her husband came in and he's like,

40:37

Oh my God, she's hugging me. Thank you

40:39

so much. I'm like, you're not my patient. What I do is

40:41

you save my life. My hands were killing me. I couldn't golf

40:43

anymore. And so it was just a TheraWorks relief. You know, it's

40:45

a meg topical magnesium foam. And

40:48

he goes, look at my hands. And he goes, I'm telling you

40:50

like my hands, I couldn't, he goes once a week, I put my,

40:52

he was thinking to rub my wife's legs and I feel great for

40:54

a week. Maybe just rubbing

40:56

your wife's legs doesn't make you happy. I don't know. Good.

41:01

Yeah. For you. If

41:03

you have issues like that, it's worth trying the worst that's going

41:05

to happen if you take too much magnesium. Like don't go

41:07

out of control, obviously, but like you're going to poop

41:09

more, you know, your

41:11

body kind of tells you some of this stuff

41:13

and you could do hair mineral analysis analyses on

41:16

some of this stuff. Magnesium

41:18

is pretty easy to figure out, in my opinion, and

41:20

most people probably need more. But I

41:23

take the double route for that personally. Someone

41:26

that's, you mentioned light cramps, potassium

41:28

comes in with the classic foot

41:30

cramp. That's basically like the potassium,

41:32

the potassium deficiency type thing. If

41:35

you're just low on energy or like feeling fatigued

41:38

after eating, that's, that could be potassium. So like,

41:40

that's another thing that you could try doing

41:42

is some people mix, try to mix potassium into

41:44

some of the topicals as well. I

41:46

haven't done that. I've just kind of started eating a

41:49

little bit more, more foods, but

41:51

you could also mix like potassium chloride

41:53

with sodium chloride salt into your salt

41:55

and maybe even some like cream of tartar

41:57

is actually potassium by tartrate. You can make like

41:59

a low. salt type thing to kind of bump

42:02

up the potassium. I think like we're at the

42:04

point now where you probably had enough podcasts like

42:06

salt is not necessarily the enemy but the

42:09

data that I look at is showing that it's

42:11

the ratio of potassium to sodium when it comes

42:13

to like blood pressure and hypertension.

42:15

So it's one of the things

42:17

do we need to drop sodium or do you need to

42:19

add more potassium and I'm obviously in the add more potassium

42:22

camp because I like to salt my meat. Yeah

42:25

salt meat add potassium add magnesium.

42:28

Lowering insulin levels too right? Yeah

42:30

lowering insulin levels. Yeah you're

42:32

retaining less fluid and salt. I want

42:34

to talk a little bit about like

42:36

protein powder and I know you know

42:38

I want to be mindful of time

42:40

but because you know I

42:42

get this all the time I posted

42:45

a recent comment I said you know

42:47

the you know plant-place proteins

42:49

are basically the biggest scam out

42:53

there right now and I got

42:55

a lot of pushback and you know people

42:57

ask me why and I think

42:59

you probably know some of those answers

43:01

and you know I think we've learned

43:03

a lot about the protein industry over

43:06

the last about 10 years particularly

43:08

over the last five years you know I've learned

43:10

a lot about the protein industry. So can

43:13

you walk people if they wanted to supplement

43:15

with protein and you know what your thoughts

43:17

are on sort of you know egg protein

43:20

way for like what do you you

43:22

know what's your take on all these? I certainly have an

43:24

opinion but I want to hear yours. Okay

43:27

my opinion is going to be obviously meat

43:29

and chicken first and all that first. Beyond

43:32

that all right so if

43:35

you're trying to build muscle there's no better

43:37

gold standard than whey protein and there's different

43:39

classes of it

43:41

we're even getting into like super hydrolyzed

43:43

clear whey proteins now that we work

43:45

with that are pretty fun and there's

43:47

a lot of data supporting just having

43:50

protein before breakfast and everything. Whey protein

43:52

isolate is going to be like the

43:54

most filtered more protein by weight less

43:57

lactose. Whey protein concentrate and

43:59

so So whey protein isolates about 90% protein by

44:01

weight. And so you're going to get a

44:04

lot of protein per pound in your

44:06

tub and everything. And then whey protein

44:08

concentrate can be anywhere from like 35 to 80%. So

44:12

you kind of want to look at

44:14

like what's in the label. And then,

44:16

and so those are the gold standards.

44:18

Now, what a lot of people like

44:21

myself have realized after turning 30 or

44:23

so start becoming what we consider to

44:25

be lactose sensitive, which I now believe

44:27

to be like subclinical vitamin A toxicity

44:30

for me, there is going to be a little

44:32

bit of vitamin A in all the dairy and

44:34

everything. So I am mostly off of a lot

44:36

of dairy. And so

44:38

that kind of gets me to consider

44:40

switching and a lot of people are off dairy.

44:42

It gets you to consider switching to other things.

44:44

Well, there's like, there's not really good

44:46

chicken protein powder out there. A lot of the beef

44:48

protein powder is really just collagen. You got to be

44:50

careful of that. Otherwise, beef

44:53

protein powder costs like a ton of money.

44:55

And so, and collagen is great, but it's

44:57

not a muscle building protein. It's great for

44:59

like hair, skin, nails, all the, and the

45:01

amino acids we don't get enough of like

45:03

glycine, proline, all that stuff. So I

45:06

am a fan of the collagen, but

45:08

for muscle, it comes down to whey

45:10

and pee protein. And

45:12

pee and rice oftentimes blend well together, just

45:15

like rice and beans. You got to have

45:17

complimentary amino acid profiles to work with each

45:19

other. The issue with the plant-based proteins is

45:21

going to be heavy metals. I mentioned copper

45:23

before, some of the other fat, I'm not

45:25

sure if they're fat soluble, you have like

45:27

arsenic-led cadmium. Those are the other three to

45:29

watch out for. The best you could

45:31

do is like go through the sites that were

45:33

mentioned earlier on and look at lab tests. I

45:37

don't really know what to say, but like I

45:39

don't want any of that in my body. So

45:41

you have to be very picky. And that's where

45:44

like some of the best tasting stuff, like maybe now

45:46

foods doesn't have the best tasting stuff, but I know

45:48

they test really well. So that's, it is a challenge.

45:51

And so I am pretty

45:53

limited on the products

45:56

I like my favorite plant-based protein

45:58

powder is, it's disclaimer,

46:01

business relationship, Astro Flav has one called Vegan

46:03

Mix and they have isomixes the way I

46:05

slit vegan mixes their plant-based protein. I just

46:07

love their vanilla. I don't know what the

46:10

lab tests are, I'll be honest. In

46:13

general, I think a few

46:16

scoops here or there, a few scoops per week

46:18

is okay. But if you're slogging

46:20

down tons and tons of this stuff, I

46:23

think eventually, if you did a hair

46:25

mineral test, you might start noticing that

46:27

your selenium is dropping, your arsenic is

46:29

going up, your cadmium is starting to go up. That's

46:32

the only way to test. The only way to

46:34

know is to really start looking

46:36

at the test and looking at tests on yourself. So

46:39

I'm a meat first guy. How

46:41

about egg white protein? Is there a

46:43

benefit to egg white protein? Well,

46:46

if you don't get the bad gas, then

46:48

yeah, I do like egg whites as well.

46:50

I was just curious, they have an actual

46:53

powders of it. Brian,

46:55

when Clean Label Project looked at

46:57

contaminants, BPA, heavy metals, cadmium, arsenic,

47:00

lead, what Mike just mentioned, this

47:02

is back in 2018. Then

47:05

2019 was the Consumer Reports, 2020 was

47:07

the Consumer Reports article. They

47:10

found the plant-based proteins had

47:13

by far the most

47:15

heavy metal, basically, contamination.

47:19

Or maybe it's a process on how they do these. I

47:22

can't figure out a good reason to do a plant

47:24

protein. I can't figure out one. I

47:27

think the reason is that if you're vegan and

47:29

you want to not have sarcopenia, like their

47:33

leaders, you look at these guys, you go, man, they could use

47:35

it. I would take my chance on a little heavy metal poisoning

47:37

to get some muscle mass if I

47:39

was those guys. I don't know. I

47:42

know Health Code who sponsored my other podcast,

47:44

Life's Best Medicine, they have a

47:47

new fermented plant

47:49

protein that's supposed to be better absorbed. I don't

47:51

know much about it, but it's nice to have

47:53

that option for our patients who are vegan or

47:56

say, look, I have ethical reasons or religious

47:58

reasons not to eat meat. Okay, we got

48:00

to get protein somehow if I can get many eggs.

48:02

I feel a lot better about that, right? Yeah,

48:05

and I might cause vitamin A toxicity now

48:07

very Yeah, just one. Let's

48:10

say very few haven't I was surprised because

48:12

you know It was the egg proteins that

48:14

had the least contaminants and way protein was

48:17

just right up there, you know second second

48:19

place Much more likely

48:21

to be in the chocolate varieties, which

48:23

I found interesting Maybe the way they

48:25

sort of process cacao another plant-based product

48:28

So it seemed to me like look if you have

48:30

the option and you tell me like if this is

48:32

your kid taking it would you say

48:35

pick egg and whey first and then you

48:37

know and You know

48:40

and would you then you know sort of

48:42

segue into the other plant like plant protein

48:44

last? Yeah, that's basically that

48:46

I would stick with vanilla So the the

48:48

issue with chocolate all your chocolate lovers out

48:50

here Sorry, but you got to watch out

48:52

for copper toxicity with that so and cadmium.

48:54

Yeah, yeah Cadmiums

48:56

associated with coronary calcifications. They've done,

48:59

you know CAC wide You

49:01

know They've done sort of these observational

49:04

studies with just CACs and correlation studies

49:06

of CACs and then the cadmium level

49:08

is you know, the higher it is

49:10

basically more CAC So these

49:13

heavy metals are not good, you know, not

49:15

not not good. At least they're associated with

49:17

bad things, right? And yeah, so a couple

49:19

of the other Minerals that

49:21

I do like to kind of compete with that

49:23

is selenium and molybdenum I think those help deliver

49:25

process. It's tough to tell because like the

49:28

deficiency People who are

49:30

deficient are often sick. Are they sick because they're

49:32

deficient or they deficient because their sickness pull them

49:34

deficient either way So that name is like one

49:36

that I think is important molybdenum isn't talked enough

49:39

about they're both copper and taking this too I'm

49:41

not sure about the cadmium side of things but

49:43

but they they may help as well So like

49:45

that that rounds out like all the minerals that

49:48

I'm pretty like really happy with But

49:50

no in general I would try

49:52

not to rely on the yeah an

49:54

insane amount of Of

49:57

plant proteins, but if you're you guys you guys

50:00

to live in a world where you do deal with

50:02

vegans and you have 100,000 followers on Twitter, so you

50:04

probably have a lot more comments on that stuff. I

50:07

have the luxury of not having to fully

50:09

engage. If someone's going to be a vegan,

50:11

another option, essential amino acids, you

50:13

can get vegan fermented essential amino acids, and

50:15

you want to make sure it's labeled like

50:17

that. There's no test to show that it's

50:19

to prove that it is. So they could

50:21

be lying. But like back in the day,

50:23

they used to get amino acids from like

50:25

horse hair and duck feathers. So

50:28

like it's a possibility. But you

50:30

can supplement with some essential amino acids. They

50:32

do need to be flavored with sucralose or

50:34

stevia, all that stuff. So

50:37

that's another alternative to get them right into

50:39

the bloodstream and everything. But

50:41

yeah, in general, I simply

50:44

just can't recommend anyone actually being vegan.

50:48

And that's just where I stand. So I guess

50:50

I don't have to worry about it as much. But

50:52

once you're in that route, then yeah,

50:54

you have to quote unquote pick your

50:56

poisons. And so I would take a

50:58

pea rice blend personally and see like,

51:01

look at the beans you can consume that

51:03

don't jack you up that aren't high in

51:05

copper. And yep, you got something

51:07

to throw. Towards

51:09

escaping us. Then we could ask the hard

51:11

questions now. Thank

51:14

you so much though. Mike, it's always a

51:16

pleasure. I'll give you a call afterwards, man.

51:18

Thank you. And I'll let you guys

51:20

continue, Brian. Okay, sweet. Mike, thanks for joining

51:22

us. Appreciate it, man. Thanks. We

51:25

did throw now. Yeah, so as

51:27

you could tell, like I get a lot into the science and

51:29

the diet side of things. So it's fun

51:31

for me because, you know, it is a

51:33

marketing heavy type of industry and you start

51:35

to try to like build up a network

51:38

of the good guys who's doing the stuff right.

51:40

And it becomes more tough to do it right.

51:42

A lot of people like, you know, I said

51:44

they say this is unregulated, but there is actually

51:46

like there's a ton of regulations. We

51:49

have a podcast where we actually are media

51:52

partners now as of like yesterday with

51:54

the Natural Products Association. We go to

51:56

Washington, DC and we lobby and we

51:58

are the only industry. And I'm

52:00

maybe not the only industry, but we are

52:03

like, we joke that we're the only industry

52:05

that actually lobbies not for more laws or

52:07

rules, we lobby to get our laws enforced.

52:09

That's the issue because there are plenty of

52:12

regulations on

52:14

the whole thing. And so it's like, you know, there's, I

52:17

have some notes here, I don't know if it's

52:19

a huge deal or whatever, but like pretty much,

52:21

you know, there's definitions of what

52:24

is a supplement. There are laws

52:26

in terms of labeling, there's laws

52:28

in terms of quality. And originally

52:30

dietary supplements, and I'm talking about

52:32

US dietary supplements were created to

52:34

actually reside under like

52:36

the food. It's a food drug and cosmetic

52:38

tax. They're under the purview of foods, but

52:40

when it comes to the actual like quality

52:42

manufacturing standards, it's actually more like the drug

52:44

manufacturing standards. So it's like a subset of

52:47

that. And then you have the

52:49

pre-market like ingredient pillar. What is actually

52:51

all permissible as an ingredient and what's

52:54

been grandfathered in since like the law

52:56

is called the D'Shea 1994, the Dietary

52:58

Supplement Health and Education Act of 1994,

53:01

defines what can be a supplement, things

53:04

that were sold to supplements before that are kind of grandfathered

53:06

in. If you want to have a new dietary

53:08

ingredient, it is, this is

53:10

where people think it's like unregulated, but it

53:12

is not a permission process. It is

53:15

a notification, not an approval. So

53:19

you notify the FDA, you give them all the

53:22

safety data, 90 days, all this, and then you

53:24

have 90, they have 90 days to respond and

53:26

they can reject it. Otherwise they acknowledge it, but

53:28

they don't approve it. And so that's where some

53:30

of this comes in and that's called the NDI

53:32

process. And then the fourth pillar is the Adverse

53:35

Event Reporting System, which is I think basically just

53:37

a copy paste of the drug reporting system. So

53:39

we do have a lot of these things, but

53:42

yeah, you want to make sure that you get

53:44

something that is kind of tested by these people.

53:46

So these are the things that you start

53:48

reading these lawsuits and

53:50

you start getting into this world. And I'm

53:53

like, I'm in deep, man. So besides the

53:55

side stuff, there's a lot of fun regulatory

53:57

stuff as well. But I'm

53:59

just... get to know people and you go,

54:01

okay, I trust this person. I trust their integrity

54:03

and what they're doing and you can see these,

54:05

they're, you know, they're doing the right thing. And

54:07

so that's why I would be curious, like certain

54:09

companies like, you know, for me as a primary

54:12

care doctor, and I don't know if you have

54:14

any, have ever come across these companies or not,

54:16

but like Metagenics, does that name ring a bell?

54:18

Is that something you go, these guys are pretty

54:20

legit decent stuff like, No,

54:22

I don't know. I mean, there

54:25

are, you'd have to kind of like audit

54:27

them and see like, honestly, I'd

54:29

ask where they're manufactured and then start contacting

54:31

someone like myself, if they're not willing to

54:33

disclose their manufacturer, even under an NDA, then

54:35

that's, that's a big problem. But there are

54:38

some, some really good manufacturers out there, there's

54:40

a lot of no name people. And then

54:42

you, I would be looking for like, is

54:44

that manufacturer? Have they been audited

54:46

by the FDA? Are they an

54:48

SF certified? If so, then that's like really

54:50

good news and everything and start going down

54:52

the rabbit hole. If this, this company is

54:54

just looking for the cheapest manufacturer out

54:57

there, and it bounces around, or

54:59

they don't have third party lab tests that they're

55:01

willing to share with you, then those are

55:03

those are red flags in your, in your line

55:05

of business. We're not, we're talking about

55:07

very sick people that you deal with. We're not

55:09

talking about 20 year old Joe trying

55:11

to like get a pre-workout something with 300 milligrams

55:14

of caffeine or more, you know, so even

55:16

then it's still important. We still want it. The laws are

55:18

there to test. Yeah, he's gonna, if you're going to recommend

55:20

a product, you want to make sure that's why what

55:23

you're doing is important because, you know, for me,

55:25

I go, okay, take berberine. Okay, you can go

55:27

to Amazon getting you here to get a go

55:29

to wherever. And so it's hard to say, okay,

55:31

I don't know their quality control Amazon. I mean, they

55:33

could have the total garbage in there, right? So I

55:35

don't know. So for me, what I

55:38

like to do is find good companies and go,

55:40

okay, give my patients a 10% discount. I don't

55:42

know. So because the other issue we run into

55:44

is conflict of interest. So I go, Oh, I

55:46

can get a contract with this berberine company. And then,

55:48

you know, I charge all my patients 20% to get

55:50

you. I mean, then you go, okay, you have a

55:53

conflict of interest now. Right. So one of those things

55:55

I like to do with companies, hey, look, just get

55:57

my patients to the 10% discount. And like, just

56:00

go straight to you and I'll just send them your way,

56:02

right? So I like to deal with companies like that where

56:04

I go, okay, I want a good quality if they're going

56:06

to take a supplement. You know, if they want to know

56:08

a berberine works, I want a good quality that's going to

56:10

absorb that's going to be good. So they take some

56:12

garbage stuff. It's not going to work. And I go,

56:14

yeah, berberine doesn't work for me. Well, no, you had

56:16

a bad product that wasn't working for you, right? Yeah.

56:19

And I'm not sure how you do show notes. Like

56:21

I can link to like a lot of the stuff

56:23

I've talked about, but yeah, now foods is just posted

56:25

like their, their berberine tests and everything. So there, there

56:27

are definitely some that have failed on Amazon and everything.

56:30

So it's the issue is like, so

56:32

these, these manufacturers, they should be testing all the

56:34

materials on the way in, put it

56:36

into quarantine until a test pass and then

56:38

test the prop finished product on the way

56:40

out. And unfortunately not everyone's doing that. And

56:43

that's, that's where we need, we definitely

56:45

do need more enforcement. Um, but,

56:47

and so yeah, a lot of the berberine out there

56:50

is junk. And that's why I do like the dihydro

56:52

berberine that we work with and everything also because the

56:54

lower doses and stuff. And I would love to mess

56:56

around with that. And I would love to mess around

56:58

with those things that say, okay, let's get a CGM

57:01

on my patient and add some stuff and see what

57:03

happens, right? See how, how we do with their actual

57:05

sugar control in real life situations. And so it's kind

57:07

of cool to see it offhand. And I've seen some

57:09

cool stuff where you go, wow, that's pretty amazing. So

57:12

I've had people take supplements. I never heard of them.

57:14

I'm like, heck, your sugars got better. Let's, let's see

57:16

what that is. Right. This is yours

57:18

for other people if it works for you. So it's kind

57:20

of cool that we have this industry. And so if

57:23

you're talking about an average, like middle aged

57:25

guy, weekend warrior, you know, gain 20 pounds

57:27

over the last 10 years, whatever, and

57:29

they go, Hey, Mike, what supplements should I take?

57:32

What are some low hanging fruit that you go, Hey, this is

57:34

a good bang for your buck. Right. You

57:36

know, creatine, you add in creatine, you add berberine. Like what

57:38

are things that you go, these are probably

57:40

from a majority of people without doing

57:42

a bunch of testing. These are

57:44

reasonable things that we're seeing deficiency in. Well,

57:47

okay. All the minerals we kind of

57:49

talked about first magnesium, potassium, selenium, zinc,

57:52

molybdenum. So that that's like, that's

57:54

the first pillar. I am definitely

57:56

a believer in the diet stuff,

57:59

of course. Like the meat will

58:01

have to require you to take less

58:03

creatine, but creatine, it's not essential. It

58:05

can be endodulously created. It is expensive,

58:07

metabolically expensive for your body to create

58:10

this molecule. And it holds our

58:12

ATP in our muscles. It doesn't hold ATP in

58:14

the muscles, but we store creatine in the muscles

58:16

so that we can use it as

58:18

a phosphate donor to create more ATP,

58:21

which is the actual like cellular energy.

58:23

That's our unit of energy, our energy

58:25

currency as we write. And like

58:29

ATP is the energy, not calories. So

58:31

anyway, so creatine helps with that. I definitely

58:33

believe in it. How much do you need?

58:36

Three to five grams a day, five if you're big,

58:38

but if you're eating a lot of meat, it might

58:41

just be like maybe one or two. Like males generally

58:43

excrete two grams of creatine a day. So

58:45

that's like kind of like the minimum just in

58:47

case. And it's, but yeah, so that's one, I

58:50

don't know if like creatine is

58:52

not exactly associated with weight loss though. It's

58:54

more like for lean muscle gains and everything

58:56

like that. So

58:58

aside from like getting the, if someone's on

59:00

a going for a diet, yeah, my fat

59:03

burning stack, first off, we could

59:05

talk caffeine. Like you're gonna get

59:07

modest gains with caffeine, whether it's

59:09

coffee or having a

59:12

supplement with caffeine, obviously like beware of

59:14

the liquid coffee drinks and all that.

59:16

Like I don't think we need

59:18

to explain not adding junk to your coffee and

59:20

everything. Yeah, mocha chinos and all that stuff for

59:22

breakfast, yeah. Right, so I

59:24

am a proponent of caffeine, like obviously know

59:27

your limit and as, and

59:30

for people who are caffeine sensitive, we

59:33

are in business with this company. So caffeine,

59:35

what's cool about caffeine is that,

59:37

well, not what's cool, sometimes it's the problem.

59:39

There's three types of different responders. You got

59:41

fast metabolizers, medium and slow. And

59:43

the people who are slow metabolizers just get

59:45

wrecked by caffeine. If you know some people like, oh, I

59:48

can't even have a cup of tea, I'll be up

59:50

all night. They're probably a slow metabolizer and it's genetic.

59:52

So when you ingest caffeine,

59:55

it's actually broken down into three

59:57

metabolites. You have parazanthine, which is

59:59

about. 84% of it's that.

1:00:01

That's actually Parazanthine is doing all the

1:00:03

good stuff, all the heavy lifting, but

1:00:06

then you have theobromine and theophilin. Theophilin

1:00:08

is a bronchodilator drug and

1:00:10

these have like way longer half-lives, like

1:00:12

nine maybe more hours if you're a

1:00:14

slow metabolizer, and these are what wreck

1:00:16

you. So what some of my friends

1:00:18

in business, we do some

1:00:20

marketing with them, have

1:00:23

created, they are creating a

1:00:25

Parazanthine ingredient, which has been

1:00:27

difficult to create. It's called

1:00:29

the trade name Nfidity, E-N-F-I-N-I-T-U-I,

1:00:31

and it's just Parazanthine. So you skip the

1:00:33

other metabolites you don't need and you get

1:00:35

the Parazanthine and it has some of the

1:00:38

fat burning like benefits of caffeine without the

1:00:40

bad side of caffeine. So there's a couple

1:00:42

products that are out that have that, like

1:00:45

MuscleTech has a fat burner and

1:00:47

a pre-workout with that. And so that's

1:00:49

a caffeine alternative. That's really good.

1:00:52

There's an energy drink called Update, for instance,

1:00:54

that you can... So it's worthy of trying

1:00:56

because you can get a little bit of

1:00:58

a fat burning kick out of that. Now

1:01:01

besides that, that's a stimulant

1:01:03

and there's other stimulants as well, like

1:01:05

some of them are no longer legally

1:01:07

sold as dietary supplements, a Fadrin, for

1:01:09

instance, which I don't

1:01:11

know if we need to go there. You can go to the pharmacy,

1:01:15

it works. And it got

1:01:17

banned because people were out of control back in the days. Overdosing

1:01:20

like huge amounts, right? We

1:01:23

didn't have the quality control. And so you

1:01:25

have these ephedra products that like literally 10X

1:01:27

of what I would recommend. But

1:01:29

if anyone says that it doesn't work for even

1:01:32

like a small 20 milligram dose of ephedrine

1:01:34

doesn't work for fat

1:01:36

burning, they're wrong. I mean, I'm sorry, but

1:01:39

obviously it can come with some heart issues, especially

1:01:41

in the higher doses. And

1:01:44

a lot of your clientele is going

1:01:46

to be, you know, cardiovascularly challenged, whatever.

1:01:48

You got to obviously be careful. But

1:01:50

it is there. There are similar stimulants

1:01:52

such as synephrine that increase energy and

1:01:55

expenditure over the top, like 75 calories

1:01:57

a day or so, that

1:01:59

work in similar ways but ephedrine which

1:02:01

is not a dietary supplement is probably

1:02:04

like one of the stronger ones that

1:02:06

is out there in like some of

1:02:08

the asthma drugs. Some

1:02:11

of the other ingredients I like that we

1:02:13

work with are, there's one called mitoburn. It's

1:02:17

a non-protein amino acid called L-baba. And

1:02:20

so when you start

1:02:22

working out or exercising or moving around a lot, the

1:02:25

branched chain amino acid valine which is one of

1:02:27

the three BCAs, that breaks down into L-baba. And

1:02:30

so B-baba then is sent to the other

1:02:33

muscles. It's a messenger, it's a myokine muscle

1:02:35

messenger telling everything, telling your body that hey

1:02:37

exercise is going on. And so

1:02:40

it starts upregulating some of the exercise like,

1:02:42

quote unquote, programs in your body

1:02:44

such as beta-oxidation, ketogenesis,

1:02:48

and bone density protection, a lot of cool

1:02:50

stuff like that. So some scientists on mice

1:02:52

started testing if they just supplemented more B-baba,

1:02:54

does it affect as well? And the answer

1:02:57

is yes. So some

1:02:59

people like to call it the exercise molecule. It's

1:03:01

not exercise in a pill, but it

1:03:03

provides some, it kind of ramps up exercise

1:03:05

a little bit more. And

1:03:08

then what it also- So it helps with exercise performance.

1:03:12

I don't have human data to prove that. Oh

1:03:14

yeah, yeah, yeah. Me, like I could do that

1:03:16

here. Subjective. Yeah. Yeah. But

1:03:19

what it does- So it's more of fat oxidation in the

1:03:21

muscle. Is this right? Well, what it's

1:03:23

doing is it's actually helping to convert

1:03:25

to beige, not brown, but beige some

1:03:27

of your white adipose tissue, making them

1:03:29

more mitochondrial dense. So a couple mechanisms

1:03:31

that it helps would like

1:03:34

create mitochondrial biogenesis

1:03:36

and you're getting a little bit

1:03:39

more brown fat deposit, mitochondrial tissue

1:03:41

in some of the subcutaneous fat,

1:03:43

turning them into from that energy,

1:03:45

like consumers- Swords are burning. Exactly.

1:03:48

Swords are burning a little bit more thermogenic. And

1:03:52

then there are some spices, like grains

1:03:54

of paradise. So

1:03:58

grains of paradise, calorie burn is the trade. name

1:04:00

or the capsaicin type ingredients

1:04:02

that can actually upregulate the bad of the

1:04:04

brown adipose tissues to get this one to

1:04:06

bang. But you know, if you go too

1:04:08

high on those, and so yeah, you do

1:04:11

get a little bit heated, you do get

1:04:13

and these do have human data and everything like,

1:04:15

you know, again, 70 calories a

1:04:17

day or so, at about 40

1:04:20

milligrams per day. And grains of paradise

1:04:22

is actually great black pepper. And if

1:04:24

you're cooking great black pepper alternatives tastes

1:04:26

really good. Like it's in the gin

1:04:28

in the ginger family. So I'm

1:04:30

a fan of those. Those are some of the

1:04:32

cooler fat burning ingredients that that we've been dealing

1:04:34

with. And there's

1:04:37

Yeah, and so that yeah, that's that's

1:04:39

most of it for me. But and then

1:04:41

there's like, yo, hymbe is out there. But that's

1:04:43

like kind of blocks that storage that might make

1:04:45

you anxious. So like, be careful of

1:04:48

that. It's like it's an aphrodisiac stimulant. Yeah,

1:04:50

they probably you hear about that, right? Yeah,

1:04:52

I don't know. If

1:04:54

you've class fast, but I keep saying

1:04:57

things about methylene blue. Do you know anything about

1:04:59

that or any benefits or any risks or anything

1:05:01

like that? The guy who introduced me to vitamin

1:05:03

A toxicity is going down that rabbit hole right

1:05:06

now. I don't know.

1:05:08

No, I don't know anything about it. All right. Yeah,

1:05:10

I was curious. I was just curious because I see all

1:05:12

these people that oh, my gosh, my life got better and

1:05:15

my energy and all that. So, you know, and, and, you

1:05:17

know, I always have to look back to the science and

1:05:19

Ben Bickman talking about creatine helping with mental functioning mitochondria. So

1:05:21

I think a lot of us are

1:05:24

coming back to this whole thing of mitochondrial health

1:05:26

to go get your mitochondria healthy, and then you

1:05:28

do better. So, you know, we hear about the

1:05:30

cellular detoxes and all this stuff. I just don't

1:05:32

know enough to say, Yeah, this is super beneficial.

1:05:35

Right? Yeah, I think creatine, creatine definitely

1:05:37

has enough data that it's like, yeah,

1:05:40

between performance, but also cognition, especially in

1:05:42

the vegan vegetarian crowd, overall well being

1:05:44

it's been tested in young youth, adolescents,

1:05:47

like I unless someone's got

1:05:49

a horrible kidney disease, I am not concerned.

1:05:51

And even then there's a paper out there

1:05:54

where the researchers postulate, if

1:05:56

people have bad kidney disease, and they're on low

1:05:58

protein diet, the creatine might actually helped. So

1:06:00

there's two sides of all these different coins. So you

1:06:02

have three to five grams a day, it's cheap anymore.

1:06:04

I mean, the price has been up in 2020, 2021,

1:06:07

but it's cheap. So that's like... Do

1:06:11

you have a manufacturer you like for creatine? Um,

1:06:17

I mean, besides like the standard now foods, another

1:06:20

company that does third party testing is

1:06:22

Nutribio. And then... Thorne. Thorne is

1:06:24

good. Yes. Okay. Thorne is trusted. Yeah.

1:06:26

I've heard... Yeah, yeah. So I was

1:06:29

just curious, you just want to make sure

1:06:31

if you're going to supplement, do the right stuff. And I think

1:06:33

we're all saying, hey, watch the stress, get

1:06:35

your sleep, get your life in order, stop

1:06:37

putting into the toxins and addition and subtraction

1:06:40

and all these things we talked about. It's

1:06:42

like, take out the harming thing, get out

1:06:44

of the sun when your sunburn and you'll

1:06:46

probably heal. Absolutely.

1:06:48

Yeah. So yeah, I think creatine,

1:06:50

it's so funny. We still see the propaganda

1:06:52

about it. I don't understand. Like maybe Joe

1:06:54

would like to get into it, but it's

1:06:56

almost like part of the anti-meat agenda sometimes.

1:06:59

And I'm like, there's like 300 studies. I mean, how much data do

1:07:03

you need before we can show that stuff? There's so

1:07:05

much data. It's the same thing. You hear this all

1:07:07

the time and you go, okay. Like all the time,

1:07:09

Jason Fung, who's an uprologist is saying, look,

1:07:11

high protein does not hurt the kidneys. And he goes, if

1:07:13

you take more protein in and your kidneys are damaged, you're

1:07:15

going to spill more protein. If we're measuring

1:07:18

creatine levels and you're taking creatine, the level may go

1:07:20

up a little bit. It doesn't mean your kidneys are

1:07:22

failing. It just means you have more creatine in your

1:07:24

system. So people with more muscle mass, their creatine is

1:07:26

higher than people of skinny old ladies. So there's a

1:07:28

lot of stuff like that where people just don't understand

1:07:31

the science. So it's so

1:07:33

frustrating, but you don't want to do

1:07:35

stuff like to harm yourself. And it's funny because I hear about

1:07:37

people supplement with the vitamin A and you're like, get rid of

1:07:40

vitamin A. It's like, why are you supplementing with it? Right?

1:07:42

Do we have time to go over that? Like I'd

1:07:44

like to... Yeah, sure. Okay. So on the note of

1:07:46

kidney disease, that's kind of where it started. So here's

1:07:48

like the, this is going to

1:07:51

be controversial. I think within five years, people are going to

1:07:53

be on this page. Like here we go. I

1:07:55

really believe it's a new paradigm. So

1:07:57

the indisputable fact is that vitamin vitamin

1:08:00

A, it's arguably an essential vitamin for growth

1:08:03

and everything provision. We hear that a lot,

1:08:05

but it's indisputable that it is a class

1:08:07

of molecules. We're going to say retinol is

1:08:09

vitamin A, but this whole class of molecules

1:08:11

I kind of went over with beta carotene,

1:08:13

they're fat soluble. They're difficult

1:08:15

to metabolize out and

1:08:17

they accumulate over time. And it is

1:08:20

indisputable that they are harmful in excess.

1:08:22

There is just too much data showing

1:08:24

vitamin A toxicity. Then I'm talking about

1:08:27

birth defects and hypervitaminosis A

1:08:29

is one of the medical terms. So

1:08:31

these are indisputable facts. And so given

1:08:33

that it accumulates over

1:08:36

time, it's almost like it's a game of time. And

1:08:38

as we see like diabetes and weight go up over

1:08:41

time, we see the exact same thing with a

1:08:43

lot of the vitamin A levels it accumulates. So

1:08:46

where this kind of started was, and I don't want

1:08:48

to tell his story, but there was a gentleman named

1:08:50

Grant Genaru, who's a Canadian, brilliant Canadian

1:08:52

engineer, whose health was failing more and

1:08:54

more over the course of years. And

1:08:56

around like, and so he had kidney

1:08:58

disease and he was going through kidney

1:09:00

failure, but he was most concerned about

1:09:02

his eczema. His eczema was so itchy

1:09:04

that he had to

1:09:06

do something about this. It was more of the biggest

1:09:08

concern. So he went on the internet,

1:09:11

you know, the doctors say, oh, it's not food. It's

1:09:13

not, you know, not the food you eat. And he

1:09:15

goes on, he's like, well, maybe it is food. And

1:09:17

so he looks up, maybe it is. So he

1:09:19

looks up eczema foods, and somehow we glues

1:09:22

together that the high eczema foods are

1:09:24

also high vitamin A foods, and he's

1:09:26

been eating tons and tons of milk.

1:09:29

And so he's like, well, you know what, I got nothing

1:09:31

to lose. I'm gonna stop ingesting all

1:09:33

this stuff. And he goes on what he considered

1:09:35

to be a low vitamin A diet was actually,

1:09:37

in my opinion, a normal vitamin A diet or

1:09:39

a lower vitamin A diet than most people, basically

1:09:41

ground beef, which does have retinol, a lot of

1:09:43

people get that wrong, ground beef, beans,

1:09:45

and rice, like base, I think, and this is

1:09:47

basically what you call the cowboy diet, all

1:09:50

his issues over the course

1:09:52

of nine years now, basically all these

1:09:54

issues slowly start resolving. He wrote a

1:09:56

big blog post like kind of ranting

1:09:58

over what he's learned. He writes

1:10:00

a couple of e-books and he starts getting a following of

1:10:02

people that are following in his forums and everything. So,

1:10:05

that's kind of going on. When

1:10:11

I started learning about this vitamin A

1:10:13

thing, I told you, like, okay, I

1:10:15

already knew about the beta-carotene issues. I

1:10:17

started thinking, like, back in … and

1:10:19

you start looking at how vitamin A

1:10:22

is metabolized and you get … and

1:10:24

you … so, you have retinol. It gets … the

1:10:28

active form of retinol of vitamin

1:10:30

A is retinoic acid. It's also

1:10:32

known as tretinoin or all-trans retinoic

1:10:34

acid and sold as retin-A. And

1:10:36

then that's metabolite. The metabolite of

1:10:38

that is 13-cis retinoic acid, also

1:10:40

known as isotretinoin, also known as

1:10:42

acutane. And beyond that, if you

1:10:44

want to go even further, 9-cis

1:10:46

retinoic acid, alitretinoin, sold as panaritin,

1:10:48

is actually used as chemotherapy. So

1:10:50

you're like, okay, we've

1:10:52

seen a lot of data on

1:10:54

how hazardous acutane can be. Like,

1:10:57

people get wrecked from this

1:10:59

stuff. Fresh and anxiety, birth defects, and they go,

1:11:01

you have to be on birth control. You cannot

1:11:03

be having sex. Like, it's that bad. Okay. And

1:11:05

so, there are studies showing that every time you

1:11:08

ingest vitamin A, some of it does get metabolized

1:11:10

into that. Not all of it, but some of

1:11:12

it. So, I'm going down this rabbit hole and

1:11:14

I'm thinking, okay, I drank tons and tons of

1:11:16

milk and fortified cereals. And then,

1:11:18

here's the part. I had a bad amount of eczema.

1:11:20

Now, this is the part I can't confirm, Brian. But

1:11:24

back then, I had an embarrassing case of

1:11:26

eczema right on my butt cheek. And

1:11:29

I remember this very vividly, obviously. Like it's

1:11:31

into the point, like just like Grand General

1:11:34

was. Yeah, miserable. Yeah. And

1:11:36

so, I remember going to the dermatologist. They gave me the

1:11:38

UV light treatment. I had a cute nurse. I should have

1:11:40

been embarrassed, but I just wanted this thing to be helped.

1:11:43

And I swear, that was around

1:11:45

third or fourth grade. I cannot confirm my family.

1:11:47

This is when my health started to

1:11:50

get to deteriorate in terms of gaining

1:11:52

fat. You start seeing that some of

1:11:54

these metabolites, such as the

1:11:56

13-cessin-retinoic acid, sold as I Accutane,

1:11:59

induces insulin. resistance. And you start

1:12:01

seeing that the transport protein

1:12:03

for this RBP4 is all

1:12:06

over the place with all the stuff you

1:12:08

guys deal with the cardiovascular disease, the insulin

1:12:10

resistance, greater incidence of diabetes, it goes up

1:12:12

over time, lower testosterone, it's like all over

1:12:15

the place. And so what and

1:12:17

so how this is starting to start to

1:12:19

come out is that there's some

1:12:21

grant generous doing this stuff. People

1:12:24

are digging through PubMed and turns out

1:12:26

there's this researcher named Anthony Mawson, M-A-W-S-O-N.

1:12:28

And so he's like got 100 papers

1:12:31

published about all sorts of stuff. This guy's got

1:12:33

to be interesting, but he's like looking at like

1:12:36

public health matters, but also behavioral stuff like mass

1:12:38

panic and everything. And so he has this paper

1:12:40

from 2000. We haven't seen

1:12:42

that anywhere, have we? No, no, yeah, he's,

1:12:44

yeah, he's been working hard. So I just

1:12:48

added about LinkedIn. So I have

1:12:50

some questions for him. But he

1:12:52

posted this paper in 2009 with a new

1:12:54

theory on violent behavior. So apparently, and I

1:12:56

didn't know this, I don't know if it's

1:12:58

even true, but apparently violent behavior is associated

1:13:00

with people with lower heart rates. He

1:13:03

connects that to some animal research, where

1:13:05

prenatal exposure to too many retinoids. Like

1:13:08

you don't want to be zero, I don't think I do

1:13:10

think it's essential. I think too many is the problem that

1:13:13

is associated with lower heart rate. And

1:13:15

he makes this connection that when the

1:13:17

liver gets sick, through

1:13:19

whatever mechanisms, whether it's too much

1:13:21

vitamin A or some other liver

1:13:24

injury, the liver gets

1:13:26

sick, occasionally, there will be moments

1:13:28

of spillover of retinoids into the

1:13:30

serum. And so this spillover wreaks

1:13:32

tons of havoc, especially if it's

1:13:34

unbound retinal esters, but you have

1:13:36

the retinoic acids getting converted into

1:13:38

like the acutane chemicals and all

1:13:40

that, but also unbound retinal retinal

1:13:42

esters, because in your liver, they're

1:13:44

stored as like retinal palmitate, usually

1:13:46

like a retinal fatty, you know,

1:13:49

compound combination. And so he connected

1:13:51

this and saying that when this bill

1:13:53

over occurs, that's when we

1:13:55

have bouts of sickness, he then goes on

1:13:57

to like publish all these other papers connecting

1:14:00

connecting this toxic spillover

1:14:03

of retinoids with

1:14:05

glioma, influenza, childhood learning disabilities, like

1:14:07

malaria, Zika, Gulf War illness, coronavirus,

1:14:09

and it all starts to glue

1:14:12

together. And over the course of

1:14:14

time, it expands on this theory

1:14:16

and can connect it to all

1:14:18

these different failing organ systems. And

1:14:21

the Gulf War illness one's pretty

1:14:23

wild because I know

1:14:26

of some people that like, they got pretty

1:14:28

messed up from the anthrax

1:14:30

vaccine back in those days. And so

1:14:32

he connects that liver injury causing colostasis.

1:14:34

So you're not able to get the

1:14:36

bile out into the poop. It starts

1:14:39

coming back up into the bloodstream and

1:14:41

then all these retinoids, whether

1:14:44

the retinol esters or retinol acids start

1:14:46

wreaking havoc on everyone. So

1:14:48

I'm like, okay, so this is, to me, like this

1:14:50

is the glue of everything. And

1:14:54

I think it is the missing link of

1:14:56

what is happening because if you look at

1:14:58

the data, and

1:15:00

so the problem is it's hard to test. You

1:15:02

have to, serum retinol is going to be kept

1:15:05

in a homeostatic range. But

1:15:07

if you're on the higher end of the range, things are

1:15:09

probably on their way going wrong. But

1:15:11

the best way of testing is with

1:15:14

a liver biopsy. Unfortunately, that's, of course,

1:15:16

dangerous and prohibitive and everything. But

1:15:18

if you start looking at the liver

1:15:20

biopsies of deceased individuals, and there's many

1:15:23

studies all over the world, you're going

1:15:25

to find that about 30 to 40% of them are

1:15:27

in de facto gold standard

1:15:30

hypervitaminosis A. And the last study

1:15:32

was in America, 2018, 9 out of 27 people were vitamin

1:15:34

A toxic. So

1:15:38

like, I think that there is a lot of

1:15:40

people who have subclinical vitamin A toxicity, all these

1:15:42

skin diseases that are happening and stuff. We like

1:15:44

to point at the seed oils. We like to

1:15:46

point at too many carbs. I'm starting

1:15:49

to point it at excessive retinoid

1:15:51

intake. We've been fortified since

1:15:53

forever. There are sometimes it's

1:15:56

sometimes been experimented as

1:15:58

a vaccine edge event. We are

1:16:00

putting it on our faces. It's

1:16:02

in the milk. It's in milk without being adding

1:16:04

more to milk, but then we fortify even more.

1:16:07

And then we have Sean Baker come out

1:16:09

with this like all muscle meat carnivore diet,

1:16:11

which is very low on vitamin A. But

1:16:13

everyone's like, no, you got to eat liver.

1:16:15

And you start seeing people getting sick by

1:16:17

eating this disgusting tasting liver. Amen, man. I'm

1:16:19

glad to hear that. Oh,

1:16:22

okay. I hate liver. I'm with you, man.

1:16:24

I hate. I'm like, I'll die. I'm

1:16:26

not going to eat liver. No, I'm going to happen.

1:16:29

And I'm telling you, so many people I've had, they

1:16:31

give up dairy and their eczema gets better. And

1:16:34

they go, I thought it was always thought

1:16:36

it was like the whey protein, the protein

1:16:38

in the dairy or the casein and whatever.

1:16:40

But man, you start looking and go, wow.

1:16:43

And I've seen that too. The carnivores, it's ridiculous. Their

1:16:45

mood gets better. Stress levels, all

1:16:48

kinds of stuff gets better. Like why isn't it? I'm

1:16:50

always wondering is it addition or subtraction? Are they getting

1:16:52

some nutrients that they needed or is

1:16:54

it that they're taking away? And if it's this

1:16:57

decrease in the vitamin A toxicity. I

1:16:59

will send you, I'm working on something as big.

1:17:01

I will send you everything I can because I

1:17:04

truly think it is something I know that and

1:17:06

we could argue about the egg thing. Like, I just

1:17:08

don't think it's natural for us to be schlunk in

1:17:10

six eggs a day. One egg

1:17:12

a day, totally cool and everything. So that's

1:17:15

where I land with that. But

1:17:17

you look at the, and I mentioned the RBP4, the

1:17:19

retinol binding protein four, it's correlated with all the stuff

1:17:21

you guys work with. I'm like, this is the missing

1:17:23

piece of the puzzle. It's just like crazy. Yeah, I

1:17:25

think we have to keep an open mind and go,

1:17:27

okay, let's cut this out and see what happens. Let's

1:17:30

add this in and see what happens. And I think that's what

1:17:32

we all have to individually. Some people, maybe it doesn't affect them

1:17:34

to eat 20 eggs a day and other people they

1:17:36

have too and they feel like garbage, right? So it's

1:17:38

really trying to figure that out. You do more egg

1:17:40

whites, get rid of the egg yolk sometimes or whatever.

1:17:43

Just trying to figure out that. And

1:17:45

over time, we'll all figure, we'll get better

1:17:48

ideas on these things and we'll probably have some binders

1:17:50

to get rid of excess vitamin A, whatever. I think

1:17:53

I kind of figured that out. It's a slow

1:17:55

process. And that's what's crazy to me is I had

1:17:57

my blood work. I got to post it on my

1:17:59

Twitter and. but I've been

1:18:01

on a very low vitamin A diet for a year.

1:18:03

My numbers are still through the roof. I have so

1:18:06

much of this stuff in my system. Like

1:18:08

I've been worried about vitamin A deficiency. I've

1:18:10

done like very low for a year. And

1:18:12

I'm still on the upper end of retinol

1:18:15

and RBP4 on the upper

1:18:17

end of the reference range. I knew

1:18:19

it because I've heard people say, this is a

1:18:21

slow detox. You got to strap in for four

1:18:23

to five years. I had effects starting

1:18:25

at like three months, my joints and everything. That might've been

1:18:27

the vitamin D thing, but I knew it was going to

1:18:30

be bad. But I was like, man, this is going to

1:18:32

be, this is going to be a slug. And I'm down

1:18:34

to try it. And I'm down to see how much it

1:18:36

is. The one, and

1:18:39

the best effect that I've had, honestly,

1:18:41

not waking up in the middle of night to pee. My

1:18:44

PSA level is like 0.1 and I sleep through the

1:18:46

night. My

1:18:49

energy has been incredible. My focus,

1:18:51

we had a crazy Black Friday

1:18:53

thing with price blah and everything.

1:18:55

And one of our employees said,

1:18:57

dude, you're a machine. I

1:18:59

was working with 3M to work on stuff while hanging out with

1:19:01

family the other day. I just, I do feel that good. And

1:19:03

I'm not on any of this. Like I

1:19:05

need this stuff. And this is mostly from cutting vitamin

1:19:08

A. The nighttime urination, absolutely.

1:19:12

And so it feels like my body's starting to

1:19:14

listen to me a little bit more. But like

1:19:16

I was saying, I have been able to add more

1:19:18

carbs in. So I remove the eggs and

1:19:21

mostly pork, like pork, sorry,

1:19:23

but it's just not a

1:19:26

good fatty acid profile anyway. I don't

1:19:28

think it's good. I mean, there's a

1:19:30

lot of toxicity and pork and

1:19:33

all that stuff, especially what they're feeding them these days

1:19:35

in the chemicals and all. There's so much to that

1:19:37

too. And I think that's a reasonable thing. It's like,

1:19:40

okay, let me come back on these things, see how

1:19:42

I feel, and go from there. And that's what's cool.

1:19:44

It's like, we're always experimenting and trying to figure it

1:19:46

out and pulling levers. And you

1:19:48

go, okay, let's pull this lever. If I

1:19:50

got eczema every day, let me try giving

1:19:53

it up for a month and see what

1:19:55

happens. That's what we see when people change

1:19:57

their diet and there's discussion. about

1:20:00

lectins causing it and they go, okay, if it's

1:20:02

vitamin A, then we look at that and see

1:20:04

if it's vitamin A and see what happens. I'm

1:20:07

pretty, I am, I'm extremely confident. It's the missing

1:20:09

link. I, I am, I'm all about it. And

1:20:11

here's the craziest thing is like, you

1:20:13

see some of the stuff that we're inundated with life

1:20:16

of state inhibits the retinoid metabolism. So

1:20:18

like now you gotta be all, all

1:20:20

organic. The, um, the muscle

1:20:22

meat carnivores, they're skipping that too. So like,

1:20:24

in my opinion, though, the problem with the

1:20:27

carnivore diet is you're not pooping enough out.

1:20:29

And that's where I am cool with like

1:20:31

adding some Apple, adding some fiber, because we

1:20:33

need to get down, bile

1:20:36

down into the stool, not up

1:20:38

into, into your gut and gird.

1:20:40

I don't want to hang around the liver. I don't

1:20:42

want to hang around anywhere. So I've, I have switched

1:20:44

on the, on the fiber thing. I think it's one

1:20:47

of the things that you're feeding the gut microbiome. There,

1:20:49

there are at least some degree of it, right? Some

1:20:51

degree of helping the microbiome. Cause there's a lot of

1:20:53

data saying, Hey, look, taking a bunch of fiber doesn't

1:20:55

help with constipation. You can't help with certain things and

1:20:57

you go, but is there a benefit of distributing

1:21:00

the sugars out more evenly and like, you know,

1:21:02

feeding the gut microbiome, keeping it healthy. So it's

1:21:04

digesting your food appropriately and all those things. I

1:21:07

think these are all questions. Hopefully next time we

1:21:09

get back together, we'll have some better answers on

1:21:11

it. But yeah, yeah,

1:21:13

I appreciate your, your talking about vitamin. I've never

1:21:15

heard of this before. So I'm like, okay, cool.

1:21:17

Let me look at it. I would

1:21:19

love to look at your data and what you're doing. There's a

1:21:22

lot. It's, it's next level. You just got to glue it all

1:21:24

together. I'll be happy to share it. Actually I will have a

1:21:26

big post, not sure if it'll be on price, blah or, or

1:21:28

the main blog. Um, I think you're

1:21:30

probably a bit out of time or whatever. I have

1:21:33

a patient. So well, that's more important

1:21:35

than me, Brian. Mike, thanks for joining us. Tell us

1:21:37

how people track you down. Where do they find you?

1:21:39

Uh, you know, yes. Okay.

1:21:42

So again, thanks for having me on. Um, it's

1:21:45

my old AOL instant messenger screen name

1:21:47

from the nineties. Mike Roberto, M

1:21:49

I C R O B E R

1:21:51

T O on Twitter. I'm not, uh, I'm

1:21:53

not really on, um, anything else

1:21:55

really. And so I like, I like it on

1:21:58

Twitter and then if it's a business related. I'll

1:22:00

be on LinkedIn, but Twitter is really,

1:22:02

really the jam. You'll see me arguing

1:22:04

about liver toxicity and all that stuff.

1:22:06

That's kind of my thing right now. I'm going to be on

1:22:08

this train for at least a few years. I'm going to document

1:22:11

it. I know there are

1:22:13

concerns with vision, not having them,

1:22:15

any of those. I'm not going to be going zero

1:22:17

vitamin A. I want to get down to a low

1:22:19

point where I think I could fix free testosterone a

1:22:21

little bit. So I have this whole thing I'm going

1:22:23

to be doing. I would love to come and report

1:22:26

in whether or not. That's awesome stuff, man, for sure.

1:22:28

We'll follow up. We'll follow up on that for sure.

1:22:30

Thanks again so much for having me. No, thanks

1:22:32

for joining us. Everyone, this is good stuff. I

1:22:34

appreciate it. This is great. I mean, you're not

1:22:36

going to get a better discussion about supplements and

1:22:38

what to do, what not to do. Does protein

1:22:40

help? What kind of protein? Because these

1:22:42

are things that we just kind of go,

1:22:44

yeah, we don't know. We don't know. So

1:22:46

you're having your, you're looking

1:22:49

at these things and saying, okay, here's the best. We

1:22:51

need sources like that that help us to say, okay, what's

1:22:53

the best supplements to take? If we're going to take it,

1:22:55

let's take the good seven. I'll just take garbage and all

1:22:58

the fillers and supplements and additives and colors

1:23:00

and all that stuff. It's good to know. It's

1:23:02

all about delivering a deal with every time you

1:23:05

add red 40. I don't know how hard it

1:23:07

is to metabolize, but it's one more thing to

1:23:09

deal with. So you got to think about that

1:23:11

for sure. And of course, people can also follow

1:23:13

price policy. You want to see me and Ben

1:23:15

doing our thing and everything. So you're not going

1:23:17

to see as much of this vitamin A stuff

1:23:20

on that. That's more, I'm still on the personal

1:23:22

thing here. If I'm coming out talking about this,

1:23:24

I got to come with data. So that's, yeah.

1:23:26

And your personal experience too, when eczema goes away,

1:23:28

like so many people just struggle with eczema. And

1:23:30

I, you know, just yesterday, I was looking at

1:23:32

some ad and they're saying, Hey, your kid has

1:23:35

eczema, shoot him up with this. Oh, it could

1:23:37

cause heart failure, cancer, liver failures. Like, okay,

1:23:39

I'd rather have some skin problems or I'd rather

1:23:41

say, let me try nutritional approaches. Like seriously, root

1:23:43

cause. I know you can have a, we'll just

1:23:45

doctor your immune system to zero. Oh, that should

1:23:47

be great. Right. So

1:23:50

blessings, man. Thanks so much for joining me

1:23:53

and we'll have a follow up on

1:23:55

this one. Thank you so much. Appreciate it. Thank

1:24:00

you.