0:04

Welcome to Ludology, a podcast

0:06

about the why of gaming.

0:25

This episode of Ludology is produced by Curtis

0:27

Fry, Jonathan Fleich, and

0:30

Christian Harrow. Ludology episode

0:32

321. Once

0:35

upon a puzzle tale. I'm

0:37

Erica Beuris. And I'm Senfeng

0:39

Lim. Today we're going to be talking

0:41

to Rita Orlove, a post curious. Welcome

0:44

Rita. Hello, thanks for having me. So

0:47

Rita, for people who may not recognize your name,

0:50

where might they know you from? I

0:53

guess I'm not sure. Maybe

0:56

Kickstarter, maybe the

0:58

Reality Escape Convention, if anybody

1:00

has attended. I

1:03

did a talk there a couple of years ago. They might

1:05

have seen me at PAX Unplugged. And

1:07

definitely like Post Curious, right? Yes,

1:10

and Post Curious, for sure. And

1:13

what is Post Curious about? Post

1:15

Curious is an independent

1:17

publishing company for narrative

1:19

puzzle adventures. So

1:22

everything that kind of combines art,

1:24

story, and game. And

1:28

puzzles, most importantly. Most

1:31

important part. Can't forget the puzzles. And that's

1:33

what we're kind of want to talk to you about. You have a nice

1:35

blend of what's happening. It's not just, you

1:38

know, I think we saw a wave of

1:40

those kind of escape room in a boxes,

1:42

but your games definitely

1:44

are not exactly that. There's

1:46

a familiarity to that. But we're going to get into

1:49

that a bit more because as you say, they're puzzle

1:51

tales. And that seems to be the kind of like

1:53

what a lot of your games fit under that kind

1:55

of series. So with that kind of idea

1:57

in mind, how do you

1:59

approach? and the narrative aspect of

2:01

your games. I think a lot of people understand

2:04

like kind of what a puzzle is, but how

2:06

do you incorporate that story

2:08

element into this? And

2:10

then with that ideas, do you

2:12

have these predetermined story lines kind

2:14

of already that your puzzles follow?

2:17

Or do you have these great puzzle ideas

2:19

and you're like, oh wouldn't it be neat to

2:21

attach a story like this? It's kind

2:23

of a great big jumble of a lot of

2:25

the things you just said. So

2:28

a lot of times I

2:30

will have very specific ideas

2:32

for puzzles and maybe less

2:34

specific ideas for stories that

2:37

then develop as I develop the puzzles.

2:39

But as the story develops, it

2:42

usually also means that the puzzles

2:44

might develop in a slightly different

2:46

way or maybe new puzzles

2:48

develop from the story because something might

2:50

be happening in the story that lends

2:52

itself to being a good puzzle. So

2:55

at a certain point

2:57

in the process, like I usually

2:59

start with an outline that includes

3:02

a basic overview of both

3:05

of those things. But at a certain point

3:07

in the process, it kind of becomes a

3:09

feedback loop that forms between

3:11

the various elements of the experience. And

3:13

I kind of try to feed that

3:15

loop as much as possible. So if

3:18

I think of something where I'm like,

3:20

wait, this can kind of fit

3:23

in multiple ways

3:25

and things sort of start

3:27

to resonate all across the

3:29

board, then I know that that

3:31

idea is good, if you know

3:33

what I mean. So

3:36

you have like a real

3:38

organic feel, I think maybe

3:40

a good term to use in terms of

3:43

the narrative and the

3:45

puzzle fitting together. It just feels

3:47

like they belong. There's been a

3:49

spate of puzzle games where the

3:52

reason for that puzzle existing doesn't

3:55

exist. There's no rhyme

3:58

or reason why that puzzle exists. exists

4:00

in that world, in that game, in that story.

4:03

And yet with the Puggle Tale series, everything

4:06

sort of seamlessly

4:09

integrates into the narrative arc of

4:11

the whole game. So

4:13

what factors are you considering, either

4:16

from the story side or the puzzle side,

4:18

to help with that more

4:20

organic melding of the two aspects

4:23

that I think your games really

4:25

do shine with? I

4:27

appreciate you saying that. I feel like it

4:29

never melds quite as

4:31

deeply as I wish,

4:33

but I do my best to

4:35

make it meld. I feel like there's

4:37

always... It's

4:40

hard to make things completely diegetic,

4:42

right? Because you're still in

4:45

a game, you're still solving a puzzle. And

4:47

if you blur the lines

4:50

so much that it starts to feel sort of

4:52

like an alternate reality game, then you're just gonna

4:54

lose where those lines are. So

4:58

my experiences are typically... They

5:02

still feel like they're on rails. Players

5:04

know usually what is a puzzle and

5:06

what is not a puzzle. But

5:09

I try to make it so that the

5:11

puzzles mirror actions or events that

5:13

are happening in the narrative and make sure

5:15

that they feel like they belong in

5:17

that world. So it's not

5:19

like you're in the 1500s

5:21

and you're solving a Sudoku because that

5:24

definitely wouldn't make any sense.

5:27

But if you're trying to determine

5:31

maybe what pigment to use

5:33

in the ink mixture that you're making,

5:35

that's something that feels like it belongs

5:37

in that world. In

5:40

The Light and the Mist, the Tarot cards

5:42

were actually the inspiration for

5:44

both the puzzles and the

5:46

narrative. So it's

5:49

a very modular design so that

5:51

each piece of narrative and each

5:53

puzzle sort of belongs

5:56

to one major arcana card. And we

5:58

used the meanings of the card. cards

6:01

as a jumping off point for both of them. So

6:03

even though the puzzles

6:07

are not exactly the

6:09

character doing something in the game, it's

6:11

really you, the player, doing something and

6:13

then learning something about the character, because

6:17

they both have that same sort of

6:19

origin point, it kind of brings

6:21

them together because they're both themed

6:23

in the same way. So

6:26

just to give an example, the Chariot

6:28

puzzle about going on a journey

6:31

and overcoming obstacles,

6:33

and that's something that I tried

6:35

to have appear in

6:37

the puzzle as well as in

6:39

the narrative snippet that you

6:42

read after solving it. So

6:45

everything just kind of feels like it belongs,

6:47

and they inform each other. The

6:49

story informs the mechanic, the mechanic informs the

6:51

story, and you get that nice

6:53

blend that we were talking about. Oh, just

6:56

for the audience, can you explain or define

6:58

what diegetic means? Yes. So

7:00

diegetic typically means something

7:03

that is part of the story

7:05

that really makes full

7:09

sense in the narrative of what's

7:11

happening. It isn't just

7:13

thematic. So if you're

7:16

breaking out of jail, it

7:18

would make sense that you might be trying

7:20

to file open one of the

7:22

jail bars, and that would be diegetic. But

7:25

that is not a very fun puzzle. So

7:28

that's also why it's quite

7:30

difficult to come up with puzzles that are

7:34

diegetic. So trying to find that

7:36

middle ground between something that doesn't

7:38

just feel like it's on theme and

7:41

it feels like something that you could be doing in the

7:43

story, even if it

7:45

isn't necessarily 100% realistic. There's

7:50

still a little bit of suspension of

7:52

disbelief going on. I'm

7:54

actually really just curious, almost like your

7:56

origin story, like where did

7:58

you decide? First

8:01

off, I'm going to make a game. Second

8:03

off, that they are going to be

8:05

these narrative, married, puzzled games.

8:08

I come from a background in object

8:10

design, so it actually, it sort

8:13

of, I ended up here in a funny

8:15

way word way, but I went to college

8:18

to study furniture design, which was sort of

8:20

a half design, half craftsmanship

8:23

type of program. So

8:25

it was a lot of thinking

8:27

about like how people interact with

8:30

objects and why, as

8:32

well as actually making those objects

8:34

and testing the theories

8:36

that you want to test in terms of

8:39

how people interact with those objects. I

8:41

always loved puzzles. I ended up

8:44

working at an escape room in

8:46

2013 to 2015, so it

8:48

was the second escape room that

8:52

opened in the US. And

8:55

after I left that job, I

8:57

really wanted to continue to make

8:59

puzzles. And I ended up

9:03

kind of looking around and finding

9:05

that there wasn't something on the

9:08

market that was exactly what I wanted to

9:10

play. So there were a lot of puzzle

9:12

games. There were some narrative

9:15

experiences and there wasn't

9:19

really something that was like fully combining

9:22

those two things, as

9:24

well as having interesting objects and

9:26

interactions for the player to use.

9:28

So I really just set

9:30

out to make a game that I

9:32

myself wanted to play and I didn't,

9:35

couldn't find anywhere at the time.

9:38

So that was how I ended up making

9:40

the tale of word. And

9:43

I was trying to make something that was

9:46

combining story with puzzles and

9:48

making something that was

9:51

challenging, but also every part of

9:54

the game was part of

9:56

the puzzle and part of the

9:58

experience. So it wasn't just... like

10:00

getting some objects with your game

10:02

that were sort of thematic, but

10:05

not actually used in the gameplay.

10:08

So I think that background makes sense in terms

10:11

of what you're suggesting, because what I

10:13

think is kind of neat, especially if anyone gets a chance,

10:15

like if you have played one of these games, just even

10:17

go look at the way it's presented. There's all these pieces

10:19

you intentionally feel like you're like, oh, I want to touch

10:21

that, I want to know why it's in the game. How

10:24

do you approach a little bit more

10:27

of that idea of that engagement and

10:29

immersion? Right? So when

10:31

you're trying to decide what

10:33

am I putting into this box, I think you've

10:35

described really well like how you want to marry

10:37

story. I guess the question is, is now you're

10:40

like, but I'm now also a publisher, right? And

10:42

I have to be able to afford the thing

10:44

I'm putting into the box. How

10:46

do you kind of, I guess,

10:48

navigate that a little bit, that you want

10:51

to create that engagement and immersion, but also

10:53

you have to physically put it in there?

10:55

Yeah, it's been an interesting learning curve

10:57

in figuring out what is possible

10:59

to manufacture. And the first

11:01

game I designed was a limited

11:03

run of like 500 copies that was

11:06

totally handmade because it was just

11:08

kind of too lavish and ridiculous

11:10

to actually manufacture at scale. And

11:12

so even like approaching publishers,

11:14

it was sort of like laughable because

11:16

they were like, we can't do this.

11:20

But I was like, no, no, I'm going to

11:22

make this game one way or another. So I

11:24

just kind of tried to figure out how to

11:26

do that. But I guess

11:28

for me, it's been more of

11:30

just a creative experience as

11:32

well. It was just like suddenly

11:34

I found my medium.

11:37

And so it wasn't just about making

11:39

a game. It was about

11:41

making sort of a more holistic experience.

11:43

And it was like, well, if I'm

11:46

playing this and this is the solution I need

11:48

to derive, like what are the kinds of objects

11:50

that I would find in this scenario? What

11:53

are the kind of objects that are fun

11:55

to interact with? Or what kind of interactions

11:58

can you make using these objects? objects

12:00

which, you know, can't be so big

12:02

or so heavy or so

12:04

voluminous, I suppose, because they do need

12:06

to fit in this box and they

12:08

need to fit within a certain budget.

12:11

And I think it was mostly

12:14

like finding fun and creativity and

12:16

having that constraint is kind of a

12:18

big part of it. That's

12:21

really neat. I look at your stuff and I

12:23

always, the word bespoke and

12:25

lavish, those are two words that just

12:28

like pop off in my head

12:30

every time I look at your stuff. It's like this is like something,

12:34

before I met you, this is something that

12:36

somebody who really loves the craft is putting

12:38

out. That's always what I thought about your

12:40

stuff is like, this is a labor of

12:42

love and it's handcrafted, as handcrafted

12:44

as possible sometimes. I mean, obviously

12:46

you've moved on from making stuff

12:48

by hand to doing a little

12:50

more production stuff, but it

12:53

still has that vibe. It

12:56

still captures that feeling. And

12:59

I think anybody who's picked up a post

13:01

curious game feels that this

13:04

is something special. And

13:06

I say that as a guy who made the

13:08

mass market like Scooby-Doo escaped from me. So

13:10

I make the mass market stuff and people

13:12

like it and that's fine. But

13:14

there's something about what you've done that is, you

13:16

know, I think a little more wholesome. I

13:19

really love it. So can

13:22

you describe the process that you use

13:24

when you are incorporating the

13:26

physical item into the game? You've

13:29

talked about the choice, you've talked about that kind of

13:31

stuff, but how do

13:33

you actually leverage the physical nature

13:36

of a toyetic piece

13:39

to connect the player to the world that

13:41

you're writing about in the story? So

13:44

how do they contribute to that? And how do

13:46

you pick what goes in box

13:48

A versus box B? Oh,

13:52

yeah, that's you just asked so many

13:54

good questions. I'm sorry. I shouldn't

13:56

shotgun those. I'll try my best

13:58

to answer all of them. I

14:00

think I usually start out with just

14:02

kind of sketching out some ideas

14:05

of what potential objects might belong

14:07

in the story and what objects

14:09

would be fun for people to

14:11

engage with. When

14:14

I was studying design, that was also

14:16

something that we talked about a lot is

14:18

like what makes a person connect with an

14:20

object and why do we like

14:22

why does certain objects have value to us

14:24

and sometimes that value is sentimental and sometimes

14:27

it's because we use something every day or

14:29

maybe it's just the way that something

14:32

looks or feels in your hand. Why

14:35

do I love playing as old so much? It's

14:37

because the tiles just feel great.

14:40

They clickety-clack. Yeah. Great.

14:43

So it's a big mix of those factors

14:46

and then of course when it comes to

14:48

manufacturing there's also the question of like how

14:50

much is it going to cost? Is it

14:52

possible to produce at mass scale? So

14:54

it's kind of a process

14:56

of thinking

14:59

of a bunch of ideas and then kind of

15:01

distilling those ideas to what

15:04

things are going to fit best within a

15:06

certain scenario or within a certain game. With

15:09

Light in the Mist it was actually a

15:11

really big constraint to only have the

15:13

tarot deck and not have any other

15:15

3D objects that are

15:17

used. So the puzzle

15:20

for me to figure out in designing that game

15:22

was how to make it feel so that a

15:24

deck of cards doesn't just feel like

15:27

a deck of cards and so that

15:29

you're still manipulating those cards somehow in

15:31

your hands, you're putting them into different

15:33

configurations, you know you might

15:35

be flipping them upside down or doing any

15:38

number of things without destroying or writing on

15:40

anything. How can they feel

15:42

more than just paper? With

15:44

all of the other games I have a little bit

15:46

more leeway to kind of use

15:49

a wide variety of types

15:51

of objects so it's

15:54

often just thinking back about the

15:56

theme or what's happening in a certain part

15:58

of the story. So Emerald

16:01

Flame and previously

16:04

Tale of Ord now returning

16:06

from the ashes as threads of

16:09

fate. They both are meant

16:11

to be sort of

16:13

male-based experiences, so you're receiving

16:15

these packages from a character in the game.

16:18

Each package has a few pieces

16:20

of evidence and

16:23

some letters and objects that belong to the

16:25

person that you're either investigating or

16:28

trying to help. And so the

16:30

objects that are included in those packages

16:32

are typically relevant to

16:34

what's happening in the story at that

16:37

time and of course where I want

16:39

to lead people to get to by

16:41

the end of that package. So

16:44

in the case of Emerald Flame, for

16:46

example, you're trying to discover

16:48

a secret location. You're

16:50

trying to discover some ingredients

16:53

of a potion that you need to

16:55

recreate. So a lot of

16:57

the gameplay revolves around some natural objects,

16:59

but I couldn't really include dried flowers

17:01

and stuff in the game as much

17:03

as I would love to do that.

17:06

That's like too bespoke when you're making

17:09

several thousand copies of something. So

17:11

instead I had, for example,

17:14

acrylic etchings with butterflies on them.

17:16

So that's something that I was

17:19

trying to combine

17:21

things that

17:24

we might find in our real

17:26

world, like microscope slides or little

17:28

display cases of bugs that would

17:30

have been captured and sort of

17:32

studied by people. And

17:35

trying to make this sort of object that kind

17:37

of lives neither here nor

17:39

there, like it's not exactly realistic. Obviously

17:41

it's not a real bug in

17:44

it, but it sort of still

17:46

gives you the feeling of being a slide

17:48

in a way because it is made of acrylic.

17:52

So trying to kind

17:54

of leverage material in a way that

17:56

feels more tangible to people because

17:58

those... Slides

18:00

could have definitely, you know, I could have

18:03

like printed something on cardboard, but that wouldn't

18:05

have had that same feeling. And

18:07

when you put them together, they also don't have

18:10

that same feeling as when you're

18:12

stacking little bits of clear plastic.

18:15

Just thinking about how you can

18:17

use material to create some atmosphere.

18:20

In Threads of Fate, there's also a set

18:22

of keys that used to belong to the

18:24

person that you're searching for. And

18:27

they are actually real metal keys.

18:29

And I think it would be less interesting and

18:32

less satisfying to the player if

18:34

they were made out of a

18:36

different material, because then you would have to

18:38

kind of pretend one extra bit, right?

18:41

And the fact that they feel like metal,

18:44

sound like metal, when you put them down

18:46

on the table, they do, they have a little

18:48

clink. It just adds like a little

18:50

bit of an extra level of realism.

18:52

So even though you're in a game

18:55

and you're pretending that all of these

18:57

things are happening, there are still

18:59

kind of things embedded in it that make

19:01

it a little bit easier to pretend. Yeah,

19:04

the less I have to work, the better. Well,

19:07

one less level to take you out, right? Like you're

19:09

right, you could have made plastic keys that were maybe

19:11

coded in some sort of metal paint or injected metal.

19:14

And you're like, but they're still going to be

19:16

light. They're plastic. They don't make sound.

19:18

Like as you're talking about like the Azul, it's like

19:20

a lot of that is weighted play

19:23

tiles. Like why do people like

19:25

poker chips, right? Especially the good

19:27

quality poker chips. There's something about

19:29

that nice weighted piece that you

19:31

just can't get from other materials,

19:33

right? Like it's just that

19:35

it's a little too pretend at

19:38

that point, right? If it's just,

19:40

let's say the plastic version. I

19:43

mean, there's also a lot of cost benefit analysis

19:45

at that point when you start getting

19:47

more granular about it and it's like,

19:49

well, do I make this out

19:52

of metal? Do I make this out of plastic?

19:54

Like how much more does it actually cost versus

19:56

how much more will people enjoy it

19:59

if it's made out of metal? this other thing. And

20:01

I usually find that it is worth

20:03

it to go sort of the

20:06

nicer route, but obviously it also

20:08

depends on, you know, the

20:10

goals for any individual game and you still

20:12

have to market it and have people spend

20:14

money on it. And a lot of people

20:16

don't want to spend a ton of money

20:18

on a game that they're only going to

20:20

play once. So yeah, it's a balancing

20:22

act. It is. I

20:24

had to ask, is there anything

20:27

that you have wanted to put in the game

20:29

that you just couldn't? Oh,

20:32

gosh, I think there are so

20:35

many things. But

20:38

to actually come up with something specific

20:42

off the top of my head. I often

20:45

I mean, I love doing things

20:47

that are more destructive, but I've been

20:49

shying away from that more and more

20:52

as people do like

20:54

to be able to at least reset the games

20:56

and like pass them on to other people. But

20:59

like I always just love doing things with

21:01

fire. I

21:04

mean, so we tend to burn something. But I'll say

21:06

as usually someone who ends up play testing a

21:08

lot of people's puzzles, I find

21:10

it really hard to be set in the right

21:12

mode to destroy something. Like

21:14

I was testing a puzzle for a friend once where

21:17

I actually had to crack open a little

21:20

wooden toy. There's somehow a

21:22

part of me that would just never do that.

21:24

So I think it takes a lot of

21:26

signposting to be like, no, no, it's okay to break

21:28

stuff. Yes, or set it on

21:30

fire. Right. You're fighting against natural urge.

21:32

You know, as much as there's conservatism and yes,

21:34

I'd like to pass it on. I guess

21:37

it depends what your gut instinct is. But I

21:39

don't want to break it. Yeah,

21:41

yeah, breaking like, including

21:44

something like ceramic that you

21:46

could break would and have something inside would also

21:48

be really cool. I've wanted to do okay, now

21:52

I finally thought of a good example. I

21:54

have been thinking about like a ring

21:57

that would have a seal on it and

21:59

like somehow you would have to press it

22:02

into wax, but how would

22:04

I get players to heat up wax

22:06

and then what could you possibly get

22:08

from the seal that you wouldn't by

22:11

just looking at it? So. I

22:13

have an idea. What's your idea? I wanna

22:15

hear it. Okay, so my idea was if you've

22:18

ever seen those things where you can see through

22:20

a very, very, very tiny, I

22:22

think it's a mirrorized crystal that can have sayings

22:24

or a picture or something like that, you see

22:26

a really common old-fashioned thing. You used to get

22:29

very small, ornate pieces that did this.

22:31

Imagine a ring with one of those in the center and if

22:33

you shine a light through it, that's

22:36

when you get the thing, but without knowing that

22:38

you needed to shine a light through it, you

22:40

would just think that it's an ornate piece that's

22:42

been put into it. Oh,

22:44

that is really cool. Yeah. That

22:46

was my first thought. Actually saw somebody

22:48

had a ring, had a diamond ring where

22:50

if you look at it through a

22:52

magnifying glass, there's a tiny cherry

22:54

blossom inside of it. And

22:57

yeah, that's so cool.

22:59

Yeah, I think you could do that through this idea, like,

23:01

but much cheaper. Where

23:04

it has a little message in it. You could do

23:06

that. It's funny. I got the idea because

23:09

my grandma gave me this, like, little bauble thing

23:11

from years ago. It's actually like this weird little cross.

23:13

But when you look through it, it's actually got, I

23:15

think about like five different little things you can look

23:17

through, but each one's just a little different picture. And

23:21

that's all it is. That's super cool. You hold

23:23

up to light, but it's a tiny little image.

23:25

And all it looks like from the outside is

23:27

almost like someone put like maybe a little blue,

23:31

you know, little blue beads or something like that,

23:33

like some cheap bead on the outside. Yeah.

23:36

So interesting, interesting. I've also wanted

23:38

to do something with like one of those,

23:41

you know, the little rolling

23:43

music boxes. Oh

23:45

yeah. So, cause you can actually like

23:47

get your own paper and make holes in

23:49

it, and then it'll make whatever

23:52

song you want. And that seems

23:54

like a really cool puzzle idea, but it's also like,

23:56

if you screw it up, then

23:58

you might be out of it. You could see a

24:00

neat thing where it's already marked ABCD so on and

24:03

it's like it is a punch thing.

24:05

But you'd have to be careful that you

24:07

say to people like maybe provide them with

24:09

almost like a ruler that scales down with

24:11

like lines. So it'd be like line one,

24:13

two, three, four, five. Like you knew exactly

24:15

where you're at. Right? Yeah.

24:18

You have to be very precise with something like

24:20

that. Have you ever seen

24:22

a Braille slate in stylus? It's

24:25

a little tool that you use for writing Braille

24:27

where it has like the specific spots where you

24:30

punch because Braille is like six cells. I

24:32

can see it like that, like a punch through. Yeah.

24:35

Yeah. That's cool. Yeah.

24:38

I'll have to look into it. There you go. So

24:41

like, let's be honest, a lot of people might be

24:43

curious about how to make a game like this. What

24:46

is the typical process? Let's say from

24:49

game concept to we're ready to,

24:51

you know, go to shelf. Like

24:53

what is that kind of process

24:55

looks like for more

24:57

of a narrative puzzle game? I

25:01

feel like honestly, it's looked different

25:04

for every game that I've made. So I

25:06

don't know if I have like one clear

25:09

answer for it, but sometimes

25:11

it starts with like

25:14

just a certain kind of inspiration point. Sometimes

25:17

it starts with the story.

25:19

Sometimes it starts with some specific puzzle ideas.

25:21

So I mean, with light in the mist,

25:23

our idea was just like, we want to

25:25

make a puzzle game in the tarot deck

25:28

with Emerald flame. I kind of got

25:30

obsessed with the astronomical clock and

25:32

Prague. And then I was like, I want to make a

25:34

game based around this. And then the clock didn't

25:37

even end up being in the game by

25:39

the time I was done, because it just like

25:41

evolved into something completely different. I

25:43

do really like to take inspiration

25:46

from real history

25:48

or mythology and then kind of

25:50

put a bit of a spin

25:53

on it. So it starts

25:55

to actually have you questioning like, wait,

25:57

is this real? Is this a thing?

26:00

I don't think I've ever heard of this and

26:02

it's like kind of a weird like I want

26:04

to create like an Extra layer

26:07

of reality that's like a little bit

26:09

magical and I feel like that's been

26:11

a lot of the through

26:14

line and Post curious games

26:16

is just kind of like it's happening

26:19

in our world, but it's like a

26:22

little bit extra but I

26:25

usually will end up with having

26:27

like an outline of some potential

26:29

puzzle ideas a lot of

26:33

Scrawl in my sketchbook that

26:37

most of it never actually ends up

26:39

going anywhere I'll then

26:41

like work up an outline for the story

26:44

and if I'm writing

26:46

it I'm usually writing little

26:48

bits and pieces here and there or if

26:50

I'm working with a writer to like

26:55

Write the narrative elements of it

26:57

then we'll usually be going back

26:59

and forth throughout the process as

27:01

well while I'm working on the puzzles I'll

27:04

usually start play testing

27:06

the puzzles relatively early

27:08

So just kind of checking

27:10

for the logic working.

27:13

So I'll mock up like a really

27:15

basic ugly version of

27:18

Whatever the puzzle is and just like get

27:20

a couple people to try it out Just

27:22

to make sure that it even makes any

27:24

sense to any other person

27:26

that is not in my brain And

27:29

then once I know that it

27:31

does make sense I'll start working

27:33

on like actual concept art and

27:35

then some real art for the

27:37

puzzles and then kind of continue that

27:41

prototyping testing writing as I

27:44

go until I have like a full prototype

27:46

of the whole game for people to test

27:50

So when you're making your puzzles, how

27:52

do you ensure that they're

27:54

accessible and enjoyable? For

27:57

a wide range of players. How do

27:59

you balance? that for skill levels

28:01

and puzzle affinity?

28:05

I think I've gotten a lot better at it

28:08

as I've done more design

28:10

and also played more games

28:12

myself and kind of tried

28:14

to pinpoint a like,

28:16

what are the signposts that are needed for

28:18

people to solve? And

28:21

of course it's also refined through play testing

28:23

where you can see where people get stuck

28:26

and like, what are the pain points for

28:28

players and then try to kind of smooth

28:30

those out. I mean, I

28:32

also know that I'm never going to

28:34

please everybody. Some people are going

28:36

to think that a game is like the hardest

28:38

thing they've ever done and someone else is going

28:41

to be like, Oh, that was so easy. And

28:43

if, you know, I've had both ends

28:45

for sure. So I know

28:48

that like, there's no way that

28:50

everybody's going to have the same

28:52

opinion about it, but my

28:54

North star is always just like, would I

28:56

find this fun to solve? And if so,

28:58

then probably somebody else will also.

29:02

So at least like that's kind of

29:04

my sanity check most of the time.

29:06

But I think, I think my

29:09

designs have also gotten progressively more

29:12

accessible as I've been making more

29:14

things just because I understand better

29:16

what sort of things people see and

29:19

what kind of connections they make when

29:22

they look at something. Yeah.

29:24

And so just an add on to that, how

29:26

do you count

29:28

for hint systems giving hints to

29:31

players? Is that something

29:33

you're constantly thinking about and refining or have you

29:35

settled on one way and that's the way you're

29:37

always going to do it? It's not going

29:39

to be the way that I'm always going to do it. In

29:42

fact, the project I'm working on right

29:44

now is probably going to be the first one

29:46

to have a fully

29:48

analog hint system as well.

29:51

So it's not just going to be up on the

29:53

website. Hints are

29:55

really important to me, so

29:57

I have tried really hard to

29:59

make. a hint system that is

30:01

friendly for players and really

30:04

easy to use and also gives

30:06

the hints in a very granular progression so

30:09

that it doesn't take away your

30:11

ability to solve something even if you're

30:13

stuck. So there are

30:15

many many steps that players will

30:17

typically go through before they actually

30:19

reach a solution. Like I

30:21

think some puzzles probably have as many like

30:23

the complicated ones probably have as many as

30:25

20 hints before they actually get

30:27

to the end. And that's just because

30:30

that's what I would want if I were playing

30:32

something because if I get stuck

30:34

on something I don't want somebody to tell me

30:36

the answer. I want them to give me a

30:38

little kernel of information so that I can

30:42

figure out what the next step is. So

30:44

that's always what I try to do as well.

30:47

And it's there always

30:49

a self-serve hint system

30:51

so you know you're playing at home you

30:54

should be able to play the game however you

30:56

want to play it. So if you're a person who's

30:58

like I do not take hints until I am utterly

31:01

desperate for it that's totally fine.

31:03

If you're like stuck for

31:05

three minutes and you're like I need a hint. You

31:07

know do you take

31:10

the hint? If that's gonna make you enjoy

31:12

the game more to take more hints

31:14

then that's totally fine. I'm not gonna

31:16

police how many hints you're gonna take or when.

31:18

I just want to make

31:21

it so that people can play at the pace that

31:23

they enjoy playing. So

31:26

I'm really curious because I think this is

31:28

the hard part for a lot of puzzle-based games. What

31:31

is your kind of like

31:33

play testing and development

31:35

cycles like? Do

31:37

you have groups? How do you put puzzles in front of

31:39

people? And then know obviously now you

31:42

need a new group to put puzzles in

31:44

front of people because now they know the

31:46

answer. So what does your system kind of

31:48

look like? I

31:50

spent a good amount of time developing

31:53

a network of other puzzle

31:56

players who can test

31:58

things and I typically

32:01

will put it in front

32:03

of more experienced puzzlers

32:05

first when things are in

32:07

their really raw stage because I

32:09

feel like people who are

32:12

very experienced can kind of see past

32:14

the rough edges and be

32:17

able to discern like, okay, I understand what

32:19

this is trying to do. And

32:21

that's usually how I kind of test the

32:24

viability of a

32:26

puzzle. Once it's

32:28

kind of gotten into a more

32:30

refined stage, then I will

32:34

start testing with people who are sort

32:36

of more like, they like puzzles, but

32:38

they're not like expert

32:40

puzzlers. They're not the people

32:43

who solve hard things

32:45

in three minutes. They might take a little

32:47

bit longer, but I still

32:50

want to make sure that they can figure it

32:52

out with the information that's given to them. So

32:54

I think there's like some

32:57

degree of like difficulty

32:59

experience curve when I'm

33:01

testing with people. Speaking

33:04

of people and their desires to

33:06

know things and solve puzzles, how

33:09

do you maintain the mystery

33:11

and the intrigue around your story as

33:14

well as the puzzles before they're released? How

33:17

can you sell something on Kickstarter

33:19

without giving something away and manage the

33:21

spoilers and preserve that element of surprise?

33:24

How do you do it? That's

33:26

such a good question. And I feel like

33:29

it's evolved so much in the past few

33:31

years, especially as there's been like more

33:33

products like this on the market, because

33:35

I think it used to be very

33:37

much like full of mystery and it would just

33:39

be a black box of like, you're

33:43

invited to the secret society and like, we're

33:45

not going to tell you what you're getting,

33:47

but it's going to cost $100. And it's

33:51

like, well, most people want to know a

33:53

little bit more than that when they are

33:55

actually investing in something. So I

33:58

feel like that has... fallen

34:01

away a bit in the last few years.

34:03

But I do a lot

34:05

of escape rooms and I talk a

34:07

lot about escape rooms, so I feel

34:09

like I've developed some skill in trying

34:11

to be able to talk about things

34:13

without actually spoiling anything. And

34:16

it was especially hard

34:18

with Morrison Game Factory because the heart

34:20

of the story is also a huge

34:22

spoiler, so it's really hard to talk

34:24

about the game without actually talking about

34:26

the main character or telling you anything

34:28

about it except that it's about an

34:31

abandoned game factory. I

34:33

think luckily most

34:35

people who play mystery games also

34:38

understand that you want

34:40

to keep the air of mystery, so they don't

34:42

want to know all of

34:45

the things because they don't want the spoilers. You

34:48

don't want to know the twist in the

34:50

book or movie that you're about to read

34:52

or watch because that's going to be less

34:55

enjoyable for you. So

34:57

I feel like for most people, they want

34:59

to know the basic information and

35:01

see some photos and see what they're

35:03

getting, but then they're like, okay, don't

35:06

tell me anymore. I

35:08

don't want to know anything else. So

35:10

it helps that the audience

35:12

usually doesn't want spoilers. They don't expect

35:14

to have all the information because it

35:16

would just be less fun that way.

35:20

But I do tend to show almost everything

35:22

that people are getting just

35:24

because I do

35:27

think that people should be able to see what

35:29

they're buying. And I

35:31

also want that when

35:34

I'm buying a game myself. I'm

35:37

really curious from your

35:39

perspective, and this can be a combination

35:41

of where you think you're going, where you think

35:43

puzzle games in general are going, but

35:46

looking ahead, what new directions are

35:48

fun things are you seeing that

35:50

are happening within the puzzle

35:53

or narrative space, or

35:55

what are you excited to start to explore yourself? there

36:00

are so many possibilities that

36:02

haven't been explored yet. So it

36:04

is definitely really exciting

36:07

to try and work in

36:09

a slightly different medium. So

36:12

the next project that I'm working on

36:14

is actually going to be a sort

36:16

of a puzzle

36:19

book, but not

36:21

exactly like other puzzle

36:23

books I've seen, I think. So I'm excited

36:26

to kind of do a little twist

36:29

and something a little different than a boxed game,

36:31

which is what I've been doing for the past

36:33

few years. I'm also

36:35

excited to be working on

36:37

something that is a little

36:40

bit more discovery-based, so it requires

36:42

opening a lot of containers, kind

36:45

of like legacy game style, but

36:47

it's not going to have any locks or anything

36:49

like that. So it will be sort of

36:51

a mix of legacy

36:54

game, and I

36:56

probably can't say anything else about this, so

36:58

I won't. Leave

37:01

us watching more. Yeah, it's a

37:03

collaboration that I'm really excited

37:05

about. Hopefully it'll be announced

37:08

probably at the end of this year. But

37:10

yeah, I feel like I don't really

37:13

like to do the exact same

37:15

thing twice. So I always want to think

37:17

of like a slightly different way

37:19

to bring this

37:21

same style of game to people.

37:24

And I've done kind of the

37:27

mail thing where you're getting things

37:30

in envelopes, and not that I'm necessarily

37:32

done with that per se, but I

37:34

think the things that I

37:37

have in mind coming up are

37:39

like a little bit more

37:41

abstract. Cool. How

37:44

many games do you work on in a given year? It

37:47

has varied quite a lot. Right now

37:50

I'm working on more games than

37:52

ever before at once, although

37:56

really Mostly actively working on

37:58

two right now. It cook

38:00

and are two more that are kind

38:02

of on the backburner. It's usually just

38:05

one at a time and one on

38:07

the backburner, but usually takes at least.

38:10

Like. A years to complete a

38:12

game. The. First couple games took

38:14

two years but that was also

38:16

alongside. like having other works. Now

38:19

that I'm kind of able to

38:21

focus on this full time, it's

38:23

moved a little bit. More.

38:25

Quickly. Just. From

38:28

That's. A doesn't find

38:30

that to. Have all the types of

38:32

games that I make. These. Games are

38:35

the ones that. Take. The longest.

38:37

They just take the most time. So.

38:39

I only do one puzzle game at a time in than

38:41

I make lots of other stuff. That. I can

38:43

only really keep to pick one story in my

38:45

mind at a time anyways and then of a

38:47

little puzzled the go along with it then. All.

38:50

The around the play testing. To

38:52

see the so. I'm just

38:54

excited to to hear that you doing.

38:57

To the Cessna. That's so interesting cause

38:59

I always feel like. It would. Take.

39:02

Me forever to if I were gonna try

39:04

to make like a more traditional board game

39:06

just because. Like how would

39:08

you know when to stop trying to

39:10

balance it? And like, how do you

39:13

know when it's enough? Place us exclusively

39:15

for the puzzle games, even though. It

39:17

has the drawbacks. a plate us as can

39:19

only play at once you can't like please

39:21

us that with the same people and it's

39:23

you know is it has it's own challenges

39:25

of course. but I feel like there's a

39:27

certain point where it's like. People

39:30

are mostly solving this without needing help and then

39:32

you kind of know. That it's like you know

39:34

it feels like of more smooth experience and then.

39:36

I'm like okay, can. I can. Start.

39:39

Putting the finishing. Touches on this but I

39:41

feel like if it were a game

39:43

that had like infinite. Variables like as

39:45

you were drawing cards or rolling.

39:48

Dice like assists as Hill ago.

39:50

Be so much harder to account. For all

39:52

of those possibilities of how

39:54

around might play out because.

39:57

This is like so much more predictable like you

39:59

know, The people what they're gonna do

40:01

and like they have to get one

40:03

specific answer. It's not like you don't

40:06

know what moves. anybody is gonna make

40:08

it any given time. And.

40:11

Then true, a third of the truth. Is

40:14

is a lot of please test. He put it on

40:16

the table next to the table. Do them in

40:18

devote their I think The funny thing is the

40:20

others if there's a roughly I'd done moment with

40:22

both were it's late feed. The puzzle games

40:24

are as you say, people can actually

40:27

get the answer fairly readily than your

40:29

like cool and most of you don't

40:31

need his sweet. That's right. this has

40:33

been laid out properly and design. I

40:35

find it's when people get to the

40:37

point where all they comment on his

40:39

lights. oh if you laid it out

40:41

a low that more like this or

40:43

if you like it their comments are

40:45

like little minor grammatical things like minor

40:47

art sayings and they enjoy the game.

40:49

You know your tennis done because at

40:51

that point you're. Talking about layer

40:54

and production. And us things are

40:56

not something that the game anymore like

40:58

no one's ageing. any conversational suggestions that

41:00

game now they're talking about since

41:02

his sentence for a and site as

41:05

feel like that's kind of the similar

41:07

cut off line. Southern.

41:09

Accents. Yeah.

41:12

I just can't imagine play dusting. First,

41:14

so much longer if it had

41:17

slate more variability and move in

41:19

people's actions and the salon flown

41:21

at. Half of

41:23

it is it is. Excel at a

41:26

some of the games like we're we're on. I think

41:28

that your three for one of argues. That.

41:31

Come out later this month. But

41:33

we're still testing parts of

41:35

it because we decided to make

41:37

six chapters at the same

41:39

think the Lodges. A success

41:41

that every. Time we added a new expansion

41:43

it's like oh no he got it. Has all the

41:46

stuff from that expansion with the old stuff that worked

41:48

and now it does it work with this expansion. Oh

41:50

my gosh would redoing. So.

41:52

We're own worst enemies. Some. Hey.

41:56

You know what I really love here is looking

41:58

at your website and I Love. that you

42:01

have what makes a post curious game, a

42:03

vibrant story, a diversity of puzzle, beautiful

42:06

illustration, unique components, quality materials,

42:08

and cooperative gameplay. That's

42:10

like your mission statement, right? Yeah, I

42:13

was very happy when I came up with

42:15

that. Because people always

42:17

kind of ask, they're like, what's post curious? What's

42:19

the puzzle tale? I'm like, try

42:21

to explain. The homepage is the place

42:23

to do that. Yeah, that's

42:26

great. So, hey, you know

42:28

what? I think it's time for

42:30

the Lutological Lightning Round. All

42:35

right, Rita, are you ready?

42:38

Yes. OK, so

42:40

first question. Which member

42:42

of Mystery, Inc. would you want to

42:45

be? Scooby Shaggy, Daphne, Freddie, or Velma?

42:47

Scrappy does not count. Scrappy never

42:49

counts. Scrappy's awful. What could

42:51

be, or which one would I be? Oh.

42:55

I mean, you choose how you want to interpret that

42:57

question. Equally good questions. Because

43:00

I feel like it would be probably most fun to

43:02

be Scooby. You're right. It probably would be.

43:05

I mean, that's fair. Like, it's funny. Yeah, I would have

43:07

said something very similar. If you were for fun, I'd be

43:09

like, wouldn't it be more fun to be like Shaggy and

43:11

Scooby? But like, realistically,

43:13

probably Velma, right?

43:16

Yeah, you kind of give it off Velma

43:18

vibe. Yeah, that's true, true. But

43:20

not Scrappy. Scrappy does not count.

43:24

All right. What is your

43:26

favorite drink to have while

43:28

you're creating puzzles? What's

43:31

next to you when you're thinking? I've

43:34

always got my water bottle next to me. So

43:37

I don't know. Hydrate or

43:39

di-drate, right? Right. There you go. And

43:43

along those lines, what's your favorite music to

43:45

listen to when you're creating puzzles? Oh,

43:48

I definitely don't listen to anything when I'm creating

43:51

puzzles. Because if

43:53

there are words going on in

43:55

my ears, it's very hard for the

43:57

words to Happen in my brain. It's

44:03

usually yet that usually like silent

44:05

concentration. Or

44:08

it. What Is one saying

44:11

that you would never. Put

44:13

into a puzzle. Some.

44:16

A for cipher. Hire

44:19

a feeling sorry for years

44:21

added as. A

44:24

labour you have a limits of the sega. The limit is some

44:26

a fourth or. Fifth or

44:29

it. Last question if you can

44:31

do and escape room with anyone

44:33

in history. In. The history of

44:35

the whole world. Alive or dead?

44:37

Who would it be? You and one

44:39

other person. That's.

44:46

A broad. So

44:48

brought this. To.

44:55

You or me to narrow down. I

45:00

mean as you on. Were.

45:02

I give you what we did. Okay, so

45:05

what are they saying and he wanted to

45:07

see the world alive or dead? to do

45:09

an escape route of a someone like alive?

45:12

So. What heard per se? Would you be

45:14

like yes you're on my escape Rooms he

45:16

wants Go. Ah law

45:19

I haven't played with neil. Patrick

45:21

Harris has so I feel like.

45:23

That's pretty into them I think cloud

45:26

really gonna happen sometime. Yeah as that

45:28

be really cool. All

45:30

right. Well you know what read it takes so

45:32

much for. Joining us it was a pleasure

45:35

having you on where do people find

45:37

out more about you. Or

45:39

you can find me a

45:41

post curious.com or on Instagram

45:43

post Curious! Was

45:46

curious and all the things you are. At a thank you

45:48

so much read as it's been a pleasure have a you

45:50

on Thank you so much for having uses it. As

45:52

always, we'd like to thank our benefactors for

45:54

the generous support. John. Gibson

45:57

Robert Sasso, Adam

45:59

Barbary. I learn how to

46:01

say that last night. That is really difficult to

46:03

say. And. The Laughlin Caddick,

46:05

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46:24

for now We'll see you in two weeks

46:26

with another episode of New Dollars. He lets

46:28

get those games out. Of your head and on to

46:30

the table. Cel that. Thanks

46:45

for listening Blue Dollars. He is

46:47

made possible by the support and

46:49

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46:51

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46:55

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46:57

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46:59

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47:01

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47:09

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