0:18

Hello everybody , welcome to another episode

0:21

of the lunatics radio , our

0:23

podcast . I'm Abby Brinker

0:25

sitting here with Alan Kudan .

0:27

Hello .

0:28

And today we have a unique

0:30

topic to discuss with you .

0:32

Yeah , I was a little baffled by this one

0:34

.

0:35

Today we're going to talk about Truman

0:37

Show delusion or

0:39

the belief that your life

0:41

is an always on reality show

0:43

with millions of viewers . Of

0:46

course , we're also going to talk about the Truman Show because

0:48

that's a big influence here . Typically

0:50

, our remit on this podcast is

0:52

to discuss the history of horror and

0:55

how history influences horror , but

0:57

in this case we are talking about

1:00

how a film has impacted society

1:02

.

1:03

So this was was

1:05

this a thing before the move ? Sorry , what

1:07

year did the Truman Show come out ? 1998.

1:10

, Okay , so obviously they probably didn't call

1:12

Truman Show disorder , but was

1:14

it even in like the human zeitgeist

1:16

of mental disorders before

1:18

1998 ?

1:20

So the net net of what we're going to talk about today

1:22

, the net net , the net net , the

1:24

nutshell , the net net Too long didn't

1:27

read . Yeah , it's a saying

1:29

.

1:29

Is it ? Is it short for something ? The

1:31

net , net .

1:34

Delusions have always existed , right , paranoia

1:36

, all these things have existed before the Truman

1:38

Show came out . Are you sure there's

1:41

a group of mental practitioners who believed

1:44

that the Truman Show sort of re-skinned

1:46

these delusions for certain cases

1:49

? For you know a couple hundred cases

1:51

that were reported and we're going

1:53

to talk a lot about this . But that's sort of the takeaway

1:55

.

1:56

Okay , so the movie just kind of like put a nice

1:58

little label on it .

2:00

Or the movie gave

2:02

these delusions a certain spin

2:04

, but in a different society , in a different

2:06

time period . It wouldn't have

2:08

been a reality TV show . It would have been that people

2:10

thought a different thing was happening to them

2:12

.

2:13

Like what so say , it's

2:15

little house in the prairie . Someone

2:17

has this disorder . What would it look like ?

2:19

I mean it's a delusion , so the belief

2:21

that is not found in reality and has no

2:24

proof .

2:24

I understand what a delusion is

2:27

, but without the context

2:29

of reality television .

2:31

It could be anything Like what it

2:34

could be , that they thought that

2:36

all of the cows near the

2:38

prairie were poisonous .

2:41

Poisonous .

2:42

It could be anything .

2:42

So you can't eat the cows Right Poisonous

2:45

, not venomous , right

2:47

. So that's really simple you

2:49

just don't eat the cows .

2:50

Yeah , what are cows biting people

2:52

? Sure , you only interact

2:55

with cows typically unless you're a farmer

2:57

by eating them .

2:59

That's fine . Okay , I understand . Well

3:01

, no , you milk them . Dairy cows , sure , sure . You

3:03

grew up on the world's largest . You

3:06

grew up on the nation's oldest dairy farm

3:08

.

3:09

Yeah .

3:10

I think you would know this .

3:11

I do know it Okay .

3:12

Cows are neither venomous nor poisonous .

3:14

That's why it's a delusion .

3:15

I understand .

3:17

There's a catch-22 around this concept . Is

3:19

the Truman Show delusion , a modern variation

3:22

of psychosis , or are

3:24

actual reality ? Shows and films

3:26

like the Truman Show causing an uptick in

3:28

this belief ? We're going to talk through it . Two

3:31

things I want to say . Of course , this episode

3:33

is going to contain spoilers for the Truman Show

3:35

. Definitely watch that movie if you have

3:37

not before you listen to this .

3:38

It's very good , very good . I'm

3:41

not going to say it's Jim Carrey at his finest , because

3:44

that's probably the mask . However

3:47

, he does a great job .

3:48

Yeah , I really truly love

3:51

the Truman Show quite deeply .

3:53

I don't know . He was a classic

3:55

90s comedy actor

3:58

that as time

4:00

went on , especially towards late

4:02

90s , early 2000s , he started branching

4:04

into roles that had

4:06

a lot more depth .

4:08

Yeah , we're going to talk about that for sure . The other

4:10

thing that I want to say is that Alan and I are not doctors

4:12

. We are not psychologists , so

4:16

what we're doing today is repeating and talking

4:18

about research that other more qualified

4:20

professionals and doctors and journalists have put

4:23

together . Nothing we say anyone

4:25

should ever take seriously .

4:26

Yes , but we are expert

4:28

armchair analysts .

4:30

There you go Today's sources . Of

4:33

course , the Truman Show , the film from 1998

4:35

directed by Peter Weir . A Psychology

4:38

Today article by Mark D Griffiths

4:40

, phd . The Truman Show delusion

4:42

. A New Yorker article by Andrew

4:44

Morance called Unreality Star

4:47

. A Web MD article by Suzanne

4:49

Wright called the Truman Show delusion . A

4:51

New York Times article by Sarah Kershaw

4:53

called Look Closely , doctor , see the Camera

4:56

. A National Post article

4:58

called Reality Bites from 2008,

5:00

. Imdb in Wikipedia

5:02

.

5:03

I'm very relieved because you've been

5:05

throwing out a lot of facts without

5:08

citing any sources .

5:09

There you have it . I'm not making it all

5:11

up , just some . You'll never know which parts

5:13

. In order to understand the impact

5:16

of Truman Show delusion , let's

5:18

first discuss its namesake . In

5:21

June of 1998 , peter Weir's

5:23

the Truman Show was released . While

5:25

not technically a horror film , I

5:28

think most of us would agree that the premise is

5:30

quite horrifying , but

5:32

one that , strangely , some of us can perhaps

5:34

relate to . The first iteration

5:36

was called the Malcolm Show , set in

5:38

Manhattan , with a much darker tone

5:41

and intended to star Gary Oldman

5:43

. It's actually really interesting

5:45

because the writer wrote

5:48

, I think , 16 drafts of the film

5:51

before the director thought that it was okay

5:53

to move into production . There was a lot of back

5:55

and forth . The director

5:57

was really trying to push it from a very , very

5:59

dark film to more

6:02

of a comedic , quirky

6:04

movie .

6:05

That was the director . Wait , the director

6:07

wrote it .

6:09

No , a different writer wrote it Okay .

6:10

So the writer and the director collaborated

6:13

through 16 drafts .

6:15

Sort of because different

6:17

directors were brought in , but by the end of

6:19

it it had gone through 16 drafts .

6:21

Which , honestly , is not a crazy amount of

6:23

drafts .

6:23

Yeah , that's kind of standard .

6:24

It's actually kind of a vanilla number .

6:26

Yeah , yeah , but as we all know , the

6:29

film stars Jim Carrey , laura

6:31

Linney and Ed Harris , though

6:33

it's interesting to note that Jim Carrey and Ed

6:35

Harris never actually met on set . They

6:37

never filmed together .

6:39

Huh , yeah , that makes sense

6:41

.

6:42

So it makes sense . But also Jim Carrey had

6:44

finished his scenes before

6:46

Ed Harris was even brought on to play

6:48

the role of Christoph . This

6:51

was initially due to the fact that Christoph

6:53

was first played by Dennis Hopper

6:55

, who left two months into production

6:57

due to creative differences .

6:59

Wow , so he was in production for two months , so

7:02

they probably filmed a lot of shit with him .

7:03

Yeah , I think they filmed from December till

7:05

April of the production year , so they

7:07

filmed for quite a while .

7:09

I get it . When you're dealing with a lot of A-list celebrities

7:11

, unfortunately their opinions matter Because

7:15

they can just throw their weight around .

7:16

Yeah .

7:17

Which is dumb ?

7:19

So Ed Harris actually went on to win a

7:21

Golden Globe for supporting actor

7:23

and an Oscar nomination .

7:25

I thought you were going to say Dennis Hopper won regardless

7:27

.

7:29

Jim Carrey also won a Golden Globe . The

7:32

Truman Show is nominated for three Oscars

7:34

, including Best Director and Best Screenplay

7:36

, but it took director Peter Weir

7:39

and Carrey a bit to find their groove as well

7:41

. Jim Carrey took a massive pay

7:43

cut for the role . Typically at this

7:45

time he was paid $20 million for

7:47

a film and he only took $12 for the

7:49

Truman Show .

7:50

What a champ Like . How

7:52

does even someone live on $12

7:55

million for a single job ?

7:57

I know it's crazy . This is

7:59

often attributed to the script and

8:01

Carrey wanting to prove himself with a dramatic

8:03

role . Weir was actually

8:05

initially considering Robin Williams for

8:07

Truman Burbank but wanted Carrey

8:10

after seeing Ace Ventura , pet Detective

8:12

, which to me is kind of mind-blowing .

8:14

Yeah , Like Ace Ventura , it's

8:17

a wild wacky movie that

8:19

is also not aged . Well , yeah

8:21

, but I don't know . I

8:24

can't imagine seeing

8:26

a guy talking with his butt

8:28

and then being like that's

8:30

the guy .

8:31

Yeah , Like to me and I know this is controversial like

8:34

Ace Ventura is on the bottom rung

8:36

of the Jim Carrey spectrum for me personally

8:38

, and the Truman Show is on the top of it and

8:40

there's lots of stuff in the middle .

8:44

I don't know .

8:45

I know , I know People really love that movie .

8:49

Well , the problem is a lot of people look at it through

8:52

. You know , roasting to glasses . It holds

8:54

a special nostalgic

8:56

place because this is a lot of people's you know growing

8:59

up movie yeah , and

9:01

yeah , when you're a kid , watching some

9:03

guy pop out of a rhinos

9:06

butt is hilarious . I mean it's

9:08

still pretty funny . Actually , jim

9:11

Carrey was always just like a really funny guy

9:13

that brought so much laughter . But

9:16

then you see him in , like when he starts dipping

9:18

into like horrorish

9:20

elements like the cable guy , yeah

9:22

, it's like , excuse me , you're

9:24

supposed to be childhood friendly , you're supposed

9:26

to be childhood friendly and this is not that

9:28

.

9:29

Well , I think that's one

9:31

of the reasons why I love him in this role

9:34

, because I actually do think

9:36

he was the right choice for casting

9:38

. Personally , yes , but he

9:40

also , like you know , he has Jim Carrey quirks

9:43

, which I love and I think I'm a big fan

9:45

of him , but , like in

9:47

the film , like the Grinch or you know , he has , like certain

9:49

things , mannerisms that he does in every film

9:51

.

9:53

He's , his whole body is so crazy

9:55

.

9:55

Yeah , and he's so great at it . And

9:58

in this film I think he only dipped

10:00

into that in the car scene when

10:02

he's driving with Laura Linney and

10:05

he's trying to like escape , you know , and

10:07

they drive over the bridge and he's going around that

10:09

roundabout and around the roundabout and he has

10:11

like this moment where he breaks into

10:13

it with like that crazy Jim Carrey face

10:16

and he's like , you know , like at her . But

10:18

it's only once , and the rest of it he's so

10:20

sort of charming and docile

10:23

and it's just like a different . I feel like it

10:25

pushed him in a different direction . It was

10:28

really cool to see that .

10:29

Well , there's also his like catchphrase of

10:32

in case I don't see you .

10:34

Yeah , that's a little Jim Carrey yeah . It's

10:37

just a smile at the end .

10:39

This also happens in what's

10:41

the movie about ? Another , the

10:44

Schizophrenia one . That's not

10:46

actually Schizophrenia , it's split personality

10:48

Me myself and Irene . Oh yeah

10:50

, that's a adult

10:52

comedy . It's like American pie level humor

10:55

, right , maybe a little more advanced . It's

10:57

been years since I've seen this . It's definitely a comedy

10:59

, but there's more dramatic elements

11:02

to it because there's gravitas in that

11:04

film a little . But

11:06

he just every so often

11:08

breaks into this like physical

11:10

comedy that he has absolutely

11:13

perfected over the years .

11:15

Yeah , absolutely . I

11:17

mean , he's a master of what he does .

11:19

It's just such a shame Like I just want to see more

11:21

of him as the mask .

11:24

Okay . So , alan , what do you think the budget was

11:26

for the Truman Show ? Like 500

11:29

million 60 million Really

11:31

, 12 of which went to Jim Carrey . Wow

11:33

, and how much do you think it brought in 200

11:36

? Billion 264

11:38

million .

11:39

I mean that's also . These are 90s

11:42

numbers .

11:43

Yeah , you have to .

11:44

Yeah , this was free avatar

11:47

, he was already up against some real

11:49

stiff competition . I mean , titanic had come

11:51

out just the year before , yeah

11:53

, and so the precedent for what

11:55

a movie needs to make to be wildly successful

11:58

Like movies like that really just

12:00

screwed the industry across the board .

12:02

But I still think the Truman Show has like 95%

12:05

on Rotten Tomatoes , like it's . I think it's sort

12:07

of beloved , even though it's and what

12:10

I really love about the Truman Show not

12:12

to get on the side tangent here but this

12:15

is going to sound like a pun , but I'm not meaning

12:17

it to be it's actually quite

12:19

simple and quite contained . When you

12:21

watch it back and neither of us had seen

12:23

it for a very long time it's simpler

12:25

than you think , than you remember . I

12:28

feel like it's very contained

12:30

. Everything about it is

12:32

, of course there's the world that

12:34

they create , but they sort of create it in

12:36

a way that feels as small as

12:38

the actual world would be for Truman

12:40

. And the script is simple

12:43

. It's kind of a short film Like it's just how

12:45

you get what's happening right away . It's not like this long

12:47

drawn out tension built thing . Everything

12:50

happens pretty fast and

12:52

it just feels like this little slice of something

12:55

you know and I appreciate that about it .

12:57

It's interesting . I feel like if this movie

13:00

was made today

13:02

, it would be presented in a very different

13:04

way . I agree there

13:06

would be so much more behind

13:09

the scenes drama and

13:12

, just like I don't know , a peek behind

13:14

the veil of how it all works

13:16

. We're just presented with

13:18

this idea of a guy

13:20

for 30 years living in this dome

13:23

. And we get just enough of the behind

13:25

the scenes , right , and it's

13:27

done by the actors , you know

13:30

. But you know , there's never any discussion

13:32

about how

13:34

these crazy weather effects are happening , yeah

13:37

, how all these cameras are

13:39

being put into place , what

13:41

do they do for sound . You know , it's

13:43

just like all these , like little details

13:46

that , as I feel like as

13:48

a more aware audience member , cause

13:50

like I mean , yeah , granted , we

13:52

work in the film industry .

13:53

Yeah .

13:54

But a lot of people are just

13:56

used to seeing the

13:58

spectacle , seeing

14:00

the cracks , because the cracks are fun . Yeah

14:03

, but Truman Show doesn't present those

14:05

, it just kind of hides them . Yeah

14:07

, every so often you

14:09

run into one , but it's always as a plot device

14:11

, you know , like when ? At the very end

14:14

, when Jim Carrey's boat hits the edge of

14:16

the dome .

14:16

Oh my god , it's the best moment . I

14:19

love it . It's so well

14:21

done and you see how simple that

14:23

is right , Yep . And it's so powerful

14:25

, Like I always get chills when we watch that

14:27

moment . It's just like what

14:29

smart storytelling .

14:32

And I mean we're going ahead of ourselves here . But the ending

14:34

of the movie it

14:37

wraps up with such

14:39

a nice little bow that's

14:41

still open-ended , which is we don't see him

14:44

in the girl meet .

14:45

We just see he leaves the dome

14:47

and the girl leaves her house , but they don't make out right

14:49

. It just like to your point it's

14:51

kind of nice , it's kind of , and now

14:53

it's what happens . Now is up to him

14:55

. We don't follow him anymore .

14:57

You don't get bogged down in all

15:00

of the legalese about

15:02

how this is happening , Like you

15:04

get protesters that are against it on

15:07

a fundamental level . But it's

15:09

also like how are they doing this

15:12

to this poor person ?

15:13

Because you get one line where they say this

15:15

is the first production studio

15:17

to ever adopt a human , and that's it , and that

15:19

explains it all .

15:20

And they never harp on it After

15:23

he gets out .

15:24

It's just like oh , he's not seeing them

15:26

in court , that's it .

15:28

Not , you are our little

15:30

slave . Get

15:33

back at monkey dance .

15:35

Yeah , the other thing that's interesting

15:37

. Obviously they didn't do this , but the

15:39

director had really wanted to make the

15:42

film experience in theaters

15:44

meta and so he wanted to build

15:46

in a moment where the projectionists

15:49

would cut and it would switch

15:51

to cameras

15:53

that were planted in the theater and include

15:56

the audience watching on the screen

15:58

and then cut back to the film . And obviously

16:00

that would have been insanely expensive to install

16:02

cameras and technical , but they were

16:04

trying to think of a way to

16:06

bring it into the real world

16:08

.

16:09

That's actually a really interesting idea to think

16:11

about . This is still during a time when

16:14

I don't know I'm going to throw out an arbitrary

16:16

number 90% , probably

16:19

even more , of all projections

16:21

were filmed . How would you even do

16:23

that , like they have digital projectors

16:26

, do they , I don't know , in 1998

16:28

. I don't know how they would have done it . I know they had digital

16:30

cameras but they weren't great

16:32

. So to interface

16:35

all that , there's a lot of technical hurdles .

16:37

But it just kind of gives you a sense of how they were

16:39

thinking about the movie . It's neat . Also

16:42

, just a fun fact one of my favorite directors

16:44

of all time , brian De Palma , was initially

16:46

set to direct the film before Peter

16:49

Weir took over . For anyone who

16:51

needs a little refresher , the

16:53

Truman Show tells the story of Truman

16:55

Burbank , played by Jim Carrey , who

16:58

was officially adopted by a television

17:00

studio after an unwanted pregnancy

17:02

. Truman is the subject

17:04

of an always-on reality program that

17:07

streams every second of his life to

17:09

viewers In the world of the

17:11

film . The television station uses

17:13

5,000 cameras to cover every

17:15

element of Truman's life and present

17:18

a relatable and honest program for

17:20

viewers . Truman lives in

17:22

a giant bubble dome where everything

17:24

inside is a set that centers around

17:26

him and every single person is an

17:28

actor . Truman finds out that

17:30

he's living in a reality show that's being streamed

17:33

around the clock and across the globe . There's

17:36

actually , which is just

17:38

so horrifying . But

17:40

there is actually a Twilight

17:42

Zone episode from 1989 called

17:44

Special Service that predates

17:46

, obviously , the Truman Show with a similar concept

17:48

. Special Service tells the story

17:51

of a man who , like Truman , discovers

17:53

he is constantly being recorded and streamed

17:56

as part of a popular television program

17:58

. J Michael Schekzinski wrote

18:00

the episode . The episode is used as

18:02

satire to make fun of the way humans

18:05

believe the world revolves around them . There's

18:08

also a short film from 1968

18:10

with a similar plot , the Secret

18:12

Cinema , starring Amy Vane . The

18:14

Truman Show is also credited with predicting

18:17

the reality show boom that followed two

18:19

years after its release with the first episode

18:21

of Survivor . So I think that's really

18:23

interesting because this is going to play into the

18:26

delusion part which we're about to get to , that

18:28

in this place and time 1998

18:30

, reality TV is not really a thing yet .

18:33

Wait , so Survivor was the first .

18:35

So Candid Camera actually

18:37

, I guess , is technically the first and

18:40

there's some sort of one-off things

18:43

. The American sportsman

18:45

, an American family , real

18:48

people , cops

18:51

, real world , predates , survivor

18:53

.

18:53

Oh wait , real world rules . Oh , that

18:55

was really Mm-hmm . That

18:58

was like the challenge . I thought it was like early 2000s

19:00

, Early 90s .

19:02

Huh , big brother , but I think

19:04

who wants to marry a millionaire ? But I think

19:06

Survivor really changed the

19:08

game of reality TV . Sure

19:10

, there's a handful

19:12

of shows that predate it , but in

19:15

the first episode of Survivor , aired in the year

19:17

2000, . Think about the

19:19

landscape of reality TV now . For

19:22

any die-hard Truman Show fans , there's

19:24

actually a 30-minute documentary

19:26

mockumentary from the set . So

19:28

, peter , we are actually sent a doc crew

19:31

into the world and

19:34

had them interview the actors in the town

19:36

as their personas , some

19:39

of which made it into the final film , but

19:41

the rest of the footage was turned into a 30-minute

19:43

package that ran on Nick at night . The

19:45

term Truman Show delusion was

19:48

coined 10 years after the release

19:50

of the film by Joel and Ian

19:52

Gold , a psychiatrist

19:54

and a neurophilosopher respectively , their

19:56

brothers . Neurophilosopher , yes

19:59

, at McGill University in Canada .

20:00

It's a rock and roll title .

20:03

Though it's not officially sanctioned in the Diagnostic

20:06

and Statistical Manual of the American

20:08

Psychiatric Association , there

20:10

are documented cases of this delusion

20:13

. The true scope of any disorder

20:15

is hard to know , but there are at least hundreds

20:17

of reported cases . Joel Gold

20:19

was a psychiatrist at Bellevue

20:21

Hospital in New York City when he first

20:23

came across a case of the Truman

20:26

Show delusion . Quoting from

20:28

Joel Gold in the National Post article

20:30

, quote it's really a question

20:32

of the extent of the delusion . The

20:34

delusions we typically tree are narrow

20:36

. There is Capgras delusion

20:38

, where someone will think his family has been

20:40

replaced by doubles , or the Frigoli

20:43

delusion , where someone believes that one

20:45

person is persecuting him a

20:47

doctor , a mailman , butcher . The

20:49

Truman Show delusion , though , involves the entire

20:52

world . End quote . So

20:54

let's quickly define what a delusion is . Essentially

20:57

, a delusion is thought to be a belief held by a

20:59

patient that is not based in reality

21:01

and has proof to the contrary . So

21:04

even though you could prove to somebody that no , you're not

21:06

on a reality TV show , they

21:08

still believe that that's the case . One

21:10

of Gold's patients traveled to New York City

21:12

after 9-11 because he was worried

21:15

the attacks were just a plot twist in his

21:17

own reality show , and he wanted to

21:19

confirm if the tower still stood .

21:21

Oh wow , so he just thought that this was

21:24

just good TV

21:26

.

21:27

A different patient had been working as an intern

21:29

on a reality TV program and

21:31

thought that everything they did was being tracked by cameras

21:34

, including voting in the presidential

21:36

election in 2004 .

21:38

Wait , was that the presidential election

21:40

? No , in 2004

21:42

? It was Bush . This

21:44

was the Bush-Al Gore . Yeah , yeah

21:47

, that was the presidential election .

21:49

Sure OK .

21:50

That was when our country took a twist Plot

21:53

twist .

21:54

When he yelled that Bush was quote a Judas

21:57

, he was taken to Gold's Carribell

21:59

View . Another patient had

22:01

traveled to the Federal Building in Manhattan's

22:03

financial district in an effort to

22:05

seek asylum from the show he thought he was being

22:08

forced to star in . Finally

22:10

, yet another patient thought he needed to climb

22:12

to the top of the Statue of Liberty to escape

22:14

his show . He's been quoted as

22:16

saying quote I realized

22:18

that I was and am the center , the

22:20

focus of attention by millions and millions

22:22

of people . My family and everyone

22:25

I knew was and are actors

22:27

in a script , the charade , whose entire

22:29

purpose is to make me the focus of the world's

22:32

attention . End , quote . The entire

22:34

reason that Truman Show Delusion is

22:36

named as it is beyond the obvious

22:38

is that three of the first five

22:41

patients that Joel Gold initially saw for

22:43

similar conditions all named the

22:45

movie while being examined . In

22:47

the next two years . Almost 50 patients were

22:49

referred to Gold After the paper came

22:51

out . So the brothers wrote a paper , dozens

22:53

of more patients tried to contact them . So

22:56

kind of the general timeline here is it's

22:58

like 2002 , 2004 . Around

23:00

that time Joel Gold , who's based in

23:02

New York , starts being referred to these patients

23:04

. He's at Bellevue and then he becomes

23:07

kind of like the guy who's digging into

23:09

this . So doctors are referring these patients to him

23:11

. His brother , who

23:13

is this neuro philosopher

23:16

, whatever he is in McGill University in New York .

23:18

Neuro .

23:18

Manser . After a while

23:20

they decide to write a paper , a psychiatric

23:23

paper , about this , and then , eventually

23:25

, I believe , they write a book .

23:26

It's also easy to

23:29

see some kind of correlation

23:31

, where some guy comes up

23:33

with this hot new theory that's

23:36

based on

23:39

this thing that is

23:41

very popular at the time , and

23:44

then you have all of these psychological

23:46

disorders , which probably

23:49

vary quite a bit , but they don't currently

23:52

fit into any established mold

23:55

. So , but now you have this

23:57

nice new one and they're

23:59

probably shoving all these people into this fancy

24:01

new box . Uh , because

24:04

they have enough similar symptoms

24:06

.

24:07

Well , I would disagree

24:09

with that on one piece

24:11

, which is that these people who are coming

24:13

in are naming the film which

24:15

is why they're being put in a box .

24:17

But this was after he published his findings

24:19

.

24:19

No , before , even before .

24:22

Okay , that's her .

24:24

But I do think it's not so much that

24:26

they're putting people in a box who

24:29

have random conditions

24:31

. I think in the kind of , the point

24:33

of the episode is that for the first

24:36

time , people have

24:38

people have always had delusions . Again right , for

24:40

the first time those delusions are taking the form

24:42

of reality TV , because reality TV

24:44

has not really existed before

24:47

and coupled with the boom of reality

24:49

TV and the film the Truman Show , people

24:51

who are going to have delusional

24:53

beliefs anyway . That's kind

24:55

of what they're latching onto Right .

24:57

So previously people would

24:59

just be paranoid . People are always watching me

25:01

, but now you have

25:03

this very acceptable

25:06

reason for being watched because

25:08

it's television , and television is entertaining . Why

25:11

would people ?

25:11

Well , like in the fifties . Someone who had the same

25:13

mental disorder might be

25:16

like I'm being chased by fucking

25:18

Russian spies . Now they think they're on

25:20

the Truman Show . Yeah , because it's the place

25:22

and time of where we are in society .

25:23

Okay , yes , I agree Okay .

25:25

I also want to say it's important to pause on the fact

25:28

that the patients are naming the film , because

25:30

that means that the film itself directly

25:33

sort of influenced these delusions , didn't

25:35

cause them right , but skinned them , if you will

25:38

. In the film , as Truman

25:40

starts to understand that something isn't right

25:42

about his reality , we can see

25:44

him slowly start to question his surroundings

25:47

. He becomes consumed with this

25:49

paranoid , confused , angry right

25:51

. It kind of mimics reality there . Sure , the

25:54

New York Times article by Sarah Kershaw

25:56

makes the point that in the 21st

25:59

century , extreme anxiety and psychosis

26:01

can have a distinct lens

26:03

to it . For example , fear

26:06

of the water supply being compromised , fear

26:08

of a microchip in your brain , alien abduction

26:11

, fear of intense surveillance

26:13

and or being on a reality show against

26:15

your will . Obviously these are specific

26:18

to the time and place right . These

26:20

fears wouldn't have existed before those technologies

26:23

existed .

26:23

What do you mean ? Contaminated water

26:26

has been around forever .

26:27

Yeah , but there was kind of like a fear of that going

26:29

on .

26:30

In . Like the middle ages

26:32

, you used to dump a body down

26:34

the enemy's well and you poisoned the whole town .

26:37

So there's probably the same sort of fear happening back then

26:39

too .

26:40

I mean , you don't have to use a person , you can just throw

26:42

a goat down there or something .

26:44

The point is that generally , fears or

26:46

delusions reflect the current fears of

26:48

society right and the current pop

26:50

cultural zeitgeist . I

26:53

also read a New Yorker article that did a great

26:55

job explaining this in layman's terms , so the article is by Andrew Morance

26:57

. It's called Unrealty Star , still

27:00

available on the website . Definitely recommend that you

27:02

go read it . It was excellent

27:04

, but it

27:07

unpacks the case of Nick Lotz . So Nick Lotz

27:09

was a student at Ohio University

27:11

and genuinely believes that he was being

27:13

followed and recorded

27:16

by TV cameras at all times . Okay , it

27:18

all started in 2007 when he felt

27:21

isolated and alone at school . This

27:24

soon developed into paranoia that people were posting photos and

27:26

videos of him online , making fun of him though he

27:28

never actually found any , but he was

27:30

he kind of . He went to school , right , he was kind of

27:32

othered , wasn't

27:35

fitting in , started drinking , started self

27:37

medicating and then kind of

27:39

became delusional and

27:42

thinking that all these classmates who weren't really bonding with him were actually

27:44

like posting videos of him Online

27:46

. But those that's just not true , right

27:48

Okay . His

27:51

parents tried to get him into rehab and he agreed to go

27:53

if he was allowed to go to a music festival . Seems

27:55

reasonable , yeah , he went with his sisters

27:57

. I

28:00

think that's why they were like okay , you have a chaperone

28:03

at the festival while on drugs and

28:06

during a Dave Matthews band set . he was convinced

28:08

he had figured out his entire life , quoting

28:10

from the New Yorker article quote . Suddenly

28:13

, lots solved the puzzle of his life

28:15

. Since

28:17

starting college , he had been the star of a reality TV show . The

28:22

network had kept the cameras hidden as in candid camera

28:24

and punked . That night was supposed to be

28:26

the finale . All

28:28

he had to do was call his father , who'd

28:31

find him in the crowd , lead him on stage and present him with a check

28:33

for a million dollars .

28:34

Wow , it's a good deal Lots took out

28:36

his cell phone , but he was too strong out to place the

28:38

call , it was too late .

28:40

He'd missed his chance to make the cameras turn

28:42

off and quote . Later

28:45

on , back at rehab , he took the

28:47

therapist's explanation that the patients will be watched as

28:51

a direct acknowledgement that he was on a reality TV show , right ? So

28:55

the nurse kind of onboarding the rehab . People were like of course

28:57

we're going to be watching you guys at all times and

29:01

he was like you and the rest of the world , right , yeah , he

29:03

was already used to it , though Eventually

29:07

he left the program and he went back home where he was like . He left

29:09

the program where he would even take to leaving his

29:11

laptop open because he was

29:13

convinced that there was cameras inside and he

29:15

wanted the audience to get a better view of him

29:17

.

29:19

What .

29:19

Yeah . So once he's kind of back home he's

29:22

slipping even further into this delusion . Because I should

29:24

say the rehab programs

29:26

refer drugs not for sort of like mental

29:28

rehab Right . So

29:31

when he's back home he's leaving laptops

29:34

, he's trying to sort of play up his role . He

29:37

even thought that the production had hardwired some

29:39

sort of speaker into his head so that

29:41

the audience could hear his thoughts . He

29:43

lost 50 pounds because he thought the producers

29:46

were telepathically telling him to

29:48

look better on camera . Quoting

29:50

from the New York article quote psychotic

29:53

disorders typically emerged between the ages

29:55

of 18 and 30 . One such

29:57

condition schizophrenia affects

29:59

approximately 1% of the population

30:02

, a figure that appears to have

30:04

remained stable across epochs and

30:06

continents . End quote . Nick

30:08

eventually came to outgrow the delusion , in a

30:10

sense . He just sort of figured

30:12

out at some point like he didn't you

30:15

know this was from 2007 , but he

30:17

didn't at the time

30:19

the article was written say

30:22

like oh , that never happened . He just sort of said I

30:24

think it's over now . Like he still believed

30:26

it , but he believed that it had ended . And

30:29

then he eventually spent an hour

30:31

on the phone with Dr Gold .

30:33

I thought you're going to say and then he eventually found all

30:35

of the episodes on YouTube . No , that'd

30:38

be so wild . It would be wild , I'd

30:40

be upset .

30:41

Yeah , of course Truman

30:44

was upset .

30:46

He was perturbed , I

30:48

feel like most people would be far more

30:50

upset .

30:51

I feel like he was upset Truman

30:53

.

30:54

Yeah , he was . His feathers

30:56

were ruffled .

30:57

Yeah .

30:58

I would have gone on a murder spree .

31:00

You kidding me ? He's so cute

31:02

at the end with his red shoes . I love his outfit . You

31:04

love his red shoes , I do .

31:07

You make a lot of comments about his red shoes

31:09

. I love them , yeah , I think it's charming . But

31:13

no , I mean . What is the normal

31:15

reaction to finding out

31:17

that your entire life is a lie ? And it's

31:19

a great question . Everyone

31:22

around you is in on the joke .

31:25

I mean the thing to me that's and again

31:27

kind of going back to the Truman show , the Truman show

31:29

not showing you everything right . The

31:32

parts that are so disturbing is that you

31:34

understand because of the context that

31:37

Truman has sex with a woman who

31:39

he thinks is his wife , but as a paid actor

31:41

. That like

31:44

it's never happened , no

31:46

, but he's not aware of it . Like it's , it's

31:49

very dark when you think about , like

31:51

all of the little things that happen in

31:53

his life , like all the things that he does when he's

31:55

alone . He thinks he's alone and people

31:58

are watching . When

32:00

he was seven or eight , you know , it's just like

32:02

it's very dark to think about that stuff

32:04

.

32:04

They do kind of glance over a lot of things

32:07

, like the fact that it's

32:09

a 24 hour live broadcast

32:12

, quote unquote , unedited . Yet

32:15

there's some human

32:17

things that are

32:19

never even discussed .

32:21

Yeah , exactly , and to me

32:23

it's like leaving that to our imagination

32:25

, because I think those are the first things people

32:27

are going to think about makes them

32:30

grosser .

32:31

you know , yeah , and he's like 30 , you

32:33

know it's he's lived a full life

32:36

. I mean , honestly

32:38

, it was kind of a gift , for

32:41

I mean , if we're taking , if we're on team

32:43

giant media corporation

32:45

that he

32:47

got out when he was just over 30

32:49

. Now he's boring . No , he's boring

32:52

. He's hit a lot like all of

32:54

the growing up milestones , yeah , and

32:56

like I don't know . After

32:58

this , this is when people typically start

33:00

to like quote unquote , settle down .

33:03

Right .

33:04

So- .

33:04

Well , you could see them pushing him to like have a

33:06

kid , because that would be the next thing .

33:08

Yeah , but like again , how interesting is

33:11

he going to be at 65

33:13

? It

33:15

depends , it does depend , but like , how

33:18

interesting is he going to be at 85

33:20

?

33:21

Yeah , probably not very . I

33:23

just read a book that I didn't expect

33:26

to have any correlation to this

33:28

movie at all in this episode

33:30

, but it is a book called Never Let Me Go

33:32

. It's a dystopian novel

33:34

and I'm not going to spoil anything about it

33:36

because I actually think everybody should go read it . I think it's

33:39

incredible , but it

33:43

has this similar question . It

33:45

made me think about Truman's

33:47

lack of free will , because

33:50

even though he has

33:53

, I'm sure , some minute level of free

33:55

will in his role in this life

33:57

, he really doesn't right

33:59

Because they're kind of he tries

34:02

to . He falls in love with this one girl and

34:04

they push him towards this other girl . They

34:06

get me . You know , everything is being manipulative

34:08

, everything around him is being manipulated

34:10

all the time .

34:11

The one woman that he does fall in love with

34:13

was not scripted , so

34:15

she got removed from the entire simulation .

34:18

Right , it's just like that's also

34:20

. The horrifying part to me is , like this

34:22

whole life that you've lived you've

34:24

actually not had the ownership

34:28

of it , that you thought you did . You

34:30

were being produced but you

34:32

weren't aware of it Like that's horrifying . Sure

34:34

, are you real , alan ? Are you

34:36

an actor ? No comment . I'm

34:39

going to quote again from the New Yorker article

34:41

by Andrew Morance . Quote If

34:44

form is fixed , content is not . Between

34:46

1995 and 2004,

34:49

. The International Study of Psychotic

34:51

Symptoms , a survey of 1,100

34:54

patients from seven countries , found

34:56

that the mind supplies the contours of

34:58

delusions and culture fills

35:00

in the details . Grandios

35:03

schizophrenics from largely Christian

35:05

countries often claim to be prophets or gods , but

35:09

sufferers in Pakistan , a Muslim country , rarely do . In

35:13

Shanghai , paranoid people report

35:15

being pricked by poisoned needles . In Taipei

35:18

, they are possessed by spirits . Shifts

35:21

in technology have caused the content of

35:23

delusions to change over the years . In the 1940s

35:27

the Japanese controlled American minds with radio waves

35:29

. In

35:31

the 50s , the Soviets accomplished this with satellites . In

35:35

the 70s , the CIA implanted

35:37

computer chips into people's brains . End quote . Again , it's

35:39

really the theme of this right . It's

35:42

important to understand that

35:45

the nature of delusions evolves depending

35:47

on society and pop culture . So

35:49

it's kind of more so just a

35:51

testament to the power of the film to

35:54

have created this sort of subgenre

35:56

of delusion than

35:59

anything else right . Thousands

36:02

of films come out every year , but

36:04

rarely do films have

36:07

hundreds of cases of delusions

36:09

associated with them .

36:11

I do wonder and I'm sure

36:13

the study was done by somebody

36:15

somewhere if how

36:19

many people are reporting

36:21

this kind of delusion who didn't

36:23

see the film .

36:25

But then maybe it's being categorized a little bit

36:27

differently , because it's not Truman

36:29

Show delusion , it's reality show delusion , sure

36:31

or who knows ? For example

36:33

, turbosis is the delusion that

36:36

one is covered in sand , which certainly

36:38

is regional .

36:39

I'm sorry , covered in sand .

36:42

Right , so it's way more prevalent in

36:44

the Middle East than in the US . Okay

36:48

, would the New York

36:50

Times article by Sarah Kershaw also

36:52

points to another example . In West

36:54

Bengal , india , some people who

36:57

are bitten by dogs had started

36:59

to believe that they were pregnant with puppies .

37:01

Okay , I , I believe that one , but

37:03

covered in sand like you

37:06

have sand on you all the time

37:08

.

37:08

You know like you're wiping sand off of yourself

37:10

huh . Okay , I'm

37:13

gonna quote from psychiatrist Peter Weiner

37:15

. Quote in the 40s Psychotic

37:18

patients would express delusions about their

37:20

brains being controlled by radio waves .

37:22

He goes by peener . Now

37:25

delusional patients commonly complain

37:27

about implanted computer chips and

37:29

quote sure I mean , yeah

37:31

, look at COVID

37:33

and how everyone thought that

37:36

vaccines implanted microchips

37:38

that they could feel a thousand percent

37:40

.

37:40

That's a great example . Also

37:42

, now it feels like so many more people are delusional

37:44

, but yeah .

37:46

Yeah , but that's also just because the internet

37:48

gives idiots megaphones .

37:50

But yes , and also think about how

37:52

, like , tick-tock , amplify shit like that . You

37:55

have a conspiracy theory . You

37:57

know someone who's delusional can really Latch

38:00

on to that ? Right like right now

38:02

, there's conspiracy theories that Travis

38:05

Kelsey and Taylor Swift who are I don't

38:07

know if you know who they are , alan , but Travis

38:09

Kelsey is a NFL player and Taylor

38:11

Swift is Taylor Swift they're in a relationship and

38:14

there's right , and there's these conspiracy

38:17

theories out there that for some reason , they're

38:19

in like a PR relationship

38:21

To get Biden

38:24

elected again . Oh yeah , it's

38:26

like that kind of stuff , that like it's

38:28

just Bonkers , you know , I

38:31

mean not that it could be a PR relationship , but I

38:33

don't believe that it's for the love

38:35

of Joe Biden .

38:36

I was reading something the other day about

38:39

how the vocal minority Ruins

38:41

. So many things . Yeah , like

38:43

what so , like

38:45

you know , an example be like Well

38:48

, there's the vocal minority being a .

38:51

Very who are allowed , but in the minority

38:53

but , yeah , a very small group

38:56

of people .

38:57

But because the internet let's

38:59

you talk to the rest

39:01

of the world simultaneously , yeah , if

39:04

you speak with enough enthusiasm

39:08

, confidence and

39:10

just like proper diction and Way

39:13

, more people listen than should , sure

39:15

, and so like the best exit . So

39:18

a great example of this was the

39:20

whole vaccines cause autism . Sure

39:22

, and you know it

39:25

. This was started for whatever fucking reason

39:27

. Yeah and then all these

39:29

other people started popping out of the woodwork saying

39:31

like , oh my god , it's the same thing for me , simply

39:34

because , like it be gave them something

39:36

to talk about . They got so impassioned

39:38

about it , yeah , and

39:41

and confidence is contagious

39:43

, sure . So they just start speaking

39:45

about this and then , all of a sudden , they have this massive

39:48

following that was

39:50

started with Effectively nothing

39:52

, and then now the whole

39:54

, and then , and then you have this topic

39:56

of vaccines Are they safe

39:58

? Is part of a larger , is

40:00

part of the a Worldwide

40:02

conversation , when it never

40:05

should have been yeah , absolutely it's

40:08

.

40:08

Also , you know , and you have people

40:10

who are going through something mentally

40:13

right or in a bad place , or

40:15

going through Some with some sort of condition

40:17

and are somewhat vulnerable . They

40:20

latch on to things like this , like I've had people in my

40:22

life who are awesome , amazing

40:24

people , but in dark times have

40:27

latched on to beliefs

40:29

and delusions and even conspiracy theories

40:32

that I thought was , you know , some

40:34

of the smartest people . I know that , but

40:36

it's kind of like a symptom

40:38

of a thing , right , and that's what we're talking

40:40

about . So All the love

40:42

to everybody and , you know , keep

40:44

questioning and go see a doctor . It's

40:47

generally believed that the Truman show

40:49

acted as an answer to patients who

40:51

are experiencing other conditions . It

40:53

gave explanation and presumed

40:55

to context to the feelings they were having

40:57

. Even the golds don't think

40:59

of the Truman show delusion as a condition

41:02

on its own . Rather , quote a

41:04

variance unknown , pursuitory and

41:06

grandiose delusions and quote Gold

41:09

classifies the Truman show delusion as

41:11

a symptom of psychosis . But

41:13

the brothers have gotten some negative pushback from

41:15

other doctors who don't necessarily

41:17

disagree with them , but rather don't

41:20

think it's so unusual for patients to identify

41:22

with a particular character or movie . And

41:25

you know , I think that's true , that's . You

41:27

know the point . And the point of this also isn't

41:29

to say that it's so special

41:31

, it's . It's kind of just to talk about this moment

41:33

in time when this was a thing you

41:36

know , and I'm gonna admit this now . I

41:39

certainly have , I would say , many

41:41

intrusive thoughts . Sometimes

41:44

it was more prevalent when I was a kid

41:46

, but thoughts that , oh

41:48

, people can hear my thoughts or People

41:50

are watching me or there's cameras set up . I

41:52

had a quite a phase of that

41:54

at one point . Even now , sometimes

41:56

I'm always I can get

41:59

suspicious that people can read my thoughts and I'll think

42:01

something like , okay , tap

42:03

my shoulder if you can , you know , give me

42:05

a sign . And I've talked to a few friends about

42:07

this as we've been researching this . We have one friend

42:09

in particular who had quite

42:11

an intense version of this

42:13

when he was growing up . Another friend Also told

42:16

me she did it as well . So I don't think

42:18

it's so unusual , especially for

42:20

our generation again growing up in

42:22

sort of this reality TV world , when

42:24

You're you're growing up , you're trying to

42:26

explain things , even as an adult , sometimes to

42:28

think , okay , it's like

42:30

a this surveillance mindset .

42:32

I Did not have this . I

42:35

did not grow up with reality TV . There

42:37

you go . Instead , I grew up with Ninja Turtles

42:39

and Street Sharks .

42:40

There you go . Whichever side of the

42:42

debate we all land on , it's sort of irrelevant

42:44

to the topic today . The point

42:46

for us is that the Truman show had a lasting

42:49

impact on society , no matter

42:51

which way you look at it , and we can't

42:53

take for granted the power of art and pop culture

42:55

in 2024

42:57

. There are indeed reality shows that you

42:59

can watch for 24 hours a day , big

43:01

brother , for instance . There are also

43:04

shows that literally use surveillance cameras

43:06

mounted in bedrooms to document

43:08

what the Inhabitants of the summer house or winter

43:10

houses are doing at all hours of the day and

43:13

night .

43:13

That seems very specific .

43:15

It's from the show summer house and winter house . Part

43:18

of the heaviness of the Truman show are

43:20

the moments we don't see as the audience

43:22

right , but in reality shows that's

43:25

what they want to catch . They want to catch the two

43:27

people having sex or the weird shit that they're

43:29

doing . But it's kind of this weird

43:31

flip where now it's like obviously

43:33

it's consensual , these people are aware

43:36

of that , they're being taped , but

43:38

it's it's kind of this bizarre thing where we minimize

43:40

it right as we expect

43:42

access to people , especially

43:44

in the reality TV worlds . So

43:47

anyway , I don't know what what the really the takeaway

43:50

is of this , except to say that I Think

43:53

reality TV , I enjoy

43:55

it , I actually will watch it quite a bit , but I do think

43:57

it can take a toll on you and you're watching

43:59

a lot of it , you don't say , and

44:01

I think it

44:03

can be dehumanizing . I also I

44:06

also think that the movie

44:08

, the Truman show , had a had a large impact

44:11

on it , on a generation really happy

44:13

to just have a breakthrough . No , I'm

44:16

not gonna blame any of my issues on reality

44:18

TV , all right , but I do think sometimes

44:20

it's good to turn it off and listen to music

44:23

instead , you know , or watch anything else

44:25

? Yeah , read a book , great

44:27

. Go on a walk . Play a game Depends

44:29

on the game . What's your big takeaway from

44:31

this episode ?

44:33

My big takeaway is that the Truman show is a frickin

44:36

baller movie baller . I haven't

44:38

, we hadn't watched , I hadn't watched in many

44:40

years . Yeah it's great . It

44:42

comes from an era of . I

44:46

don't know this is a very biased

44:48

statement , but the 90s cranked out some incredible

44:51

movies .

44:52

I have to say there's also this I don't

44:56

know how to define them , but films

44:58

like being , john Malkovich , the Truman Show

45:00

Adaptation , which all seem

45:03

to have come out kind of around the same time-ish

45:06

but the same kind of decade and

45:09

it's like this meta-quirky

45:12

but not comedy , but not drama . It's

45:14

like they're so specific and I just have a

45:16

deep love for them . Sure , I

45:18

think they're really a unique , mini-micro

45:21

subgenre film . What would you

45:23

call that genre ? Meta

45:25

like meta-dramaties

45:28

, meddramaties

45:31

. I'd

45:34

say psychological comedies , but

45:36

all of them are sort of meta to the world of film

45:39

. Being John Malkovich is about John Malkovich

45:41

, right . Then you have adaptation , which

45:43

is about writing films , and then

45:45

you have the Truman Show , which is about making

45:47

content . There's a layer of meta-ness

45:50

to it .

45:53

I'd say fourth-wall , intrusive comedies

45:56

.

45:56

Ooh dramaties .

45:59

Fourth-wall intrusive dramaties , Ex-perfection

46:02

. That's your favorite genre outside

46:04

of horror .

46:05

It's not my favorite genre , but I have a love for it

46:07

.

46:08

And the Little Mermaid . I'm honestly surprised

46:10

that the Truman Show never went on to have

46:13

any sequels or

46:15

spinoff shows . I

46:17

don't know , it just seems rife . But

46:19

we're also coming from the future

46:21

, where everything has to be a franchise

46:24

.

46:25

Everything has to be three hours and a franchise

46:27

and a spinoff . That's

46:29

why I also respect it a lot , because I feel like

46:31

it didn't overstate its own importance

46:33

.

46:35

Now they can't even come up with any new stories . Now they're

46:37

telling fucking Napoleon .

46:41

As always you guys . Thank you so much for being

46:43

here . I know this one was a little bit

46:45

different , but again , we have a deep love

46:47

for the Truman Show and it was fun to watch it and talk

46:50

through how film in general impacts

46:53

real life kind of the opposite of what

46:55

we usually do when we talk about . The history of

46:57

horror . Flipped it on its head for

46:59

this one .

47:00

It really is so easy it really would have been

47:02

so easy to

47:05

remake this movie as a horror film

47:07

.

47:07

Yeah .

47:08

Just someone's entire life . One day the

47:11

veil is dropped and everything is a

47:13

lie , and it all comes crumbling down .

47:15

Yeah , I mean , I honestly think it's

47:17

. I like the way that they

47:19

handled it because I think it would

47:21

have been , I don't know

47:23

. It feels more unique this way , with

47:26

this tone , versus as something

47:28

that's darker .

47:29

Well , I think in the film they really

47:31

drove home how

47:34

Truman was

47:36

very beloved . He was

47:38

never being made fun of . His

47:42

comedic behaviors were

47:44

more endearing

47:46

than Despite

47:48

the fact that he was a comedic guy

47:51

. People were laughing with him rather than

47:53

at him , and Ed

47:55

Harris with his God Mike

47:57

. They have a big conversation about this

47:59

, about

48:02

how Truman means

48:04

so much to so many people , whereas

48:08

it's very easy to imagine

48:11

someone just being

48:13

laughed at . Someone is

48:15

the butt of a joke , someone is the

48:17

rat in a maze that

48:19

the whole world is watching .

48:21

Yeah , Totally , Absolutely

48:25

yeah , and it's

48:27

almost like a stepford wife in a way , like the

48:29

fact that it's not a horror and it should

48:31

be . It's a little bit creepier

48:33

to watch because everybody's

48:35

fake smiling through it .

48:38

Yeah , and then just the

48:41

cracks immediately get steamrolled over

48:43

and you move on .

48:45

Right , because it's like a giant , it's

48:47

like such a production company

48:49

, but whatever , yeah , it's fascinating . Anyway

48:53

, thank you guys so much for listening . It has

48:55

been a pleasure , as always . We

48:57

will be back very soon with some darker

48:59

content for you . I can promise that . Stay

49:02

spooky , stay safe and we'll talk to you soon

49:04

. Bye . Transcribed by ESO is a słow Unic

49:06

gebaut .