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I'm Jane Messineo Lindquist,

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and this is a Puppy Culture potluck podcast.

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You bring the topics, we bring the conversation.

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This week's topic is a post that I wrote

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into the Puppy Culture discussion group on Facebook.

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And it was just something that's been on my mind

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and I threw it out there and it got

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unbelievable crazy traction.

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So here's the post. This is what I wrote.

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Just throwing it out there. I have no interest in doing this, but I feel there is

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a general need for a new kind of dog professional.

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Don't you feel that many puppy owners

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could use something like an IN PERSON puppy parenting coach?

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So not dog training per se.

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More like a breeder mentor for puppy owners.

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It just seems like puppy owners throw a lot of effort

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against things that are not really problems,

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but they don't know those things are not problems

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because they don't have someone with enough wisdom and experience

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to point that out. Someone who's

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raised a hundred puppies, particularly if they've raised puppies of that breed,

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could really save those owners a lot of trouble.

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What do you think? Would any of you be interested in doing this?

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Wow, the answer is crazy.

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I would say overwhelmingly

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people were like, Heck yeah,

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either we need this

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or breeders saying that,

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yes, I actually have offered this service.

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This is a thing. And let me just say, when I used to do

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dog training consults,

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this was my business. I would sell a dog training session,

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but I am telling you, 98

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times out of 100, they would come to me

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and walk up my front walkway and they'd be like, “Do you see?

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Do you see the, do you see what's up?” And I'd be like, Yeah, What?

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It's normal. What's your question?

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That will be $250. And the people were happy.

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They just wanted somebody to lay eyeballs on the dog and let them know.

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In the discussion groups, we see it all the time where people are like

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my puppies biting me, my puppies aggressive or something to this effect.

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And then we see a video of the puppy and it's a normal puppy that is playing.

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And you can't blame puppy owners because they don't know the difference, okay?

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They don't know the difference between a puppy play growling

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and tugging on your pant leg or really being aggressive and it's a serious

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distinction, but it's not something that you can go to school and find out.

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It's something that you just have to have looked at, an awful lot of puppies

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to know the difference.

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These puppy owners bring their puppies to trainers and the trainers

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offer them the gifts that they have, which is the gift of modifying behavior.

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The puppy is doing this thing and the trainer is addressing it,

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showing them how to modify behavior, how to train,

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and if it's a good trainer, positive and fantastic.

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But it's not addressing the underlying issue for the puppy owner,

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which is is my puppy okay?

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Is my puppy normal? And I'm just going to say,

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in my experience, having placed a large number of puppies

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and knowing the history of hundreds more placed by my breeder friends,

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very close friends, that I do really know the history of these litters intimately.

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Not a lot of dog trainers who aren't also

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breeders are really capable of making this distinction.

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Now, at this point, I'm going to say that

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there was a lot of confusion in this thread

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and a lot of it with dog trainers,

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that said, but this is what I do.

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This is this is what I do. And if you are a dog trainer and you're listening

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to this, I beg of you to please listen to the end, because I do think

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that there is a professional opportunity for you here.

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I think that there's a niche that needs to be filled

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that is not currently being filled and dog trainers with the right kind

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of experience could very easily fill this, but they are not currently filling it.

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So keep an open mind. Please listen on. Now.

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Here's my wish list.

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With Puppy Culture in my seminars,

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I always say, listen, dog breeders are not dog trainers.

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They don't want to be dog trainers. If they wanted to be dog trainers, they'd be dog trainers.

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That's kind of a thing with Puppy Culture, because Puppy Culture is

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a it's a puppy program.

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It's not a breeder program. It's not a trainer program.

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It's not a puppy owner program. It's a puppy program.

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So it's serving the puppy what the puppy needs, which

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so happens to include quite a bit of training

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and quite early at the time where the breeder has the puppy.

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So the breeders get pushed into that lane.

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It's not their comfort zone. And at the time when I made Puppy Culture,

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I really thought that we were going

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to see a lot more trainers working with breeders

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to do the Puppy Culture protocols.

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And there are some in fact, we had a question about that this week,

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which I might do another podcast about because I love this idea,

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bringing people in to work with your litter, because again, breeders often are not the best trainers.

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Trainers are really good trainers and puppies need training.

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Starting at four weeks in my breed. So

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I'd like to see that. But what I'm saying is I also want to see some going

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the other way too, where the trainers are staying in their training lane

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and the breeders are coming in with their expertise,

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which is more just wisdom about what's normal and what's not

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and what really has to be fixed and what doesn't.

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Probably 20% of the puppies that I place, even

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though I do help my puppy owners find good dog training classes,

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some trainer will recommend putting a pinch collar on the dog

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because the dog's aggressive and my, you know, my dogs are not aggressive.

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The trainers, they can't read the dog.

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This is not dissing

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the amazing gifts that trainers bring to the table in our team.

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But what it's saying is that we have lanes.

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The dog training lane is best served generally by a dog trainer.

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How do you get behaviors? How do you shape things?

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How do you look for antecedents, antecedents, behavior, consequence,

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good dog trainer can really instill this in the puppy owner.

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But you know, when the puppy owner has the puppy at home and it's 7:00 at night

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and the puppies running around the house doing something, biting whatever,

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and the puppy owner just can't read, is this normal or not?

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That's an in-person visit to the person's house.

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That's somebody just walking in and taking one look at that puppy and saying, this is a normal puppy at 7:00 at night.

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I think there's even room

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for very breed specific versions of this professional,

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just literally the voice of of dogs, The way that they express each other

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as puppies can be very different, specifically with breeds.

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So I just think when we're talking about this because a lot of dog trainers

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did write in and say, Oh yeah, I offer that service,

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but I feel like this is a breeder thing or, or a person who's raised

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a lot of foster litters. And I will qualify that and say raised

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and placed and worked with the puppy owners.

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There's a kind of mileage that you get

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by raising the puppies,

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raising them in your house, placing them outside of your house,

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dealing with all of this again and again, seeing how puppy owners

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can be sort of flummoxed by normal puppy behavior and just understanding that

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and particularly breed and type specifically,

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I think it's a needed niche.

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So let me read you some of these answers that came in.

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Yes, I am part of a service dog breeding program and I have always acted

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as mentor to anyone local who's new to the program or anyone who gets one of my girls puppies.

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So this woman breeds she's both a breeder and she's

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part of a service dog breeding program, pre-COVID.

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We met in groups of people with puppies of similar ages,

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experienced fosters and new people.

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Having someone who has experience was a huge help.

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The success rate for Fosters goes way up.

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And then she says, You would be shocked at

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how many pups are returned because they quote unquote bite.

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Well, Sharon, No, I would not be surprised because we see it every day.

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So, you know, that's your unicorn dog trainer, the one that both has

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the experience raising her own litters, doing tons of service dog breeding.

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You get a volume of experience. It's hard to get anywhere else.

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And she's a dog trainer, so she can really come at it

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from all angles, see, that's the kind of person that we need.

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Somebody else says, I love this idea as a dog trainer.

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Now, this woman is a breeder, too, but she says as a dog trainer,

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I find myself giving more support than training to most puppy parents.

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I mean, exactly. This is what happened

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when we did our puppy course With Open Arms in Madcap University.

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Not that I'm shilling for it, but there it is.

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This is what we did.

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I do have a lot of training in it.

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I do show you how to train behaviors, but I realize the stumbling block

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for people is not so much

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how to get your puppy to sit or walk on leash,

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although that can be its own challenge.

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It's, how do I carry this puppy home?

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What's reasonable as far as how much activity the puppy should have?

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What my what should my schedule look like? What does physically my house look like set up?

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These are the kinds of things that really are stumbling blocks for puppy owners.

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And yes, as a dog trainer, I agree.

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I spend a lot more time just telling people, yeah, you know,

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your puppy's normal. So here's another one.

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I think that breeding mentors are sorely lacking these days.

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Even in my breed that has a breed mentor list with the National Club.

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Now I think that she's talking specifically

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about mentoring other breeders, but it used to be

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I remember when I started, I went to my local kennel club and there were some ladies

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there that helped me and I struggled with some things.

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And this was the nineties, This was before the Internet really.

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And people would come to your house and help you. Now I'm going to just pivot a little bit on this

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and talk about the dog trainers

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that have become real phenomenon

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on the Internet and television before the Internet was around.

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And I'm going to call out Cesar Millan and also Barbara

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Woodhouse, if you remember Walkies, Walkies, Barbara Woodhouse,

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Monks of New Skete, that's another one.

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Now I'm going to say all three of these

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entities, I do not recommend that

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you read their books, don't recommend you watch their shows.

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They are terrible. But, but their allure

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is that they present as knowing dogs.

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They give that feeling of mentorship, like, Listen, I just know dogs.

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They're not famous for being great dog trainers.

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They're famous for being great knowers of dogs.

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And I think that's the piece. That's what people are looking for.

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And I think if we can get people who are, I should say,

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forward thinking and not stuck in the ancient days

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as far as dominance dog training, I think that would be a really good thing.

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Oh, so here's another one that,

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my breed; I think this is a great idea.

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I had a mini bull returned to me after one week.

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Puppy was then ten weeks old.

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The reason given was that a behaviorist had said he had no impulse control

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and that he went after them to bite them.

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I really thought I had a monster coming home.

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Turns out he was a normal mini bull pup

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and settled into an alternative home with no problems.

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I'm just going to say Amen, sister, because

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I have had this happen. Also.

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It happens with Staffy bulls because I know a lot of Staffy bull breeders.

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I think there is breed specific behavior

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that's just normal for our breeds, and particularly the bull breeds.

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A lot of the people that wrote in, in support of this

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idea either had primitive breeds or bull breeds, which is very interesting

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because I think they tend to be a little bit of outliers as far as normal puppy behavior.

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Oh, yeah. Here I mentioned the primitive breeds.

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Totally agree. A bunch of Sheba breeders were just joshing around recently

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and they're like, We need puppy growers.

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And then responding to that, Yes, in my breed Sheba's,

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there are some puppy behaviors that are normal for the breed,

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but sometimes very worrying for new owners and for trainers

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that have no experience with such primitive breeds.

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Sometimes trainers will even do damage if their methods are wrong.

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I support my owners from the start and I believe many here

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do, as I think that is an important part of Puppy Culture breeders.

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But I do help to others that reach out

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with these question about their Shiba puppies and what to do.

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Here's another one; 100%.

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I had family members convinced that they wanted a puppy, but

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in less than a week say it was too much work and re-home the puppy with a friend.

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Very frustrating for me to see happen

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as I helped them locate the puppy from a great breeder,

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but better than the puppy living in a bad situation.

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They absolutely could have used personalized in-home help.

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I shared puppy books, my favorite toys and chews, and even photos

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of my expen and crate setups and even that didn't help them.

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They needed someone hands on.

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Again, Amen sister.

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I mean, I'm the Puppy Culture lady.

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I'm the impossible dog lady.

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I am the puppy course lady.

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And my puppy owners, as soon as they're in the queue

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to get a puppy from me, they absolutely are getting all of these resources.

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We have groups. I go over with them.

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I'm like, this week you should be watching this.

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I prepare them, I drip feed information and I am telling you,

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I still have to go to their house half the times.

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It's difficult for some people to see a picture of my set up and me

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saying This is how I do it, and then look at their house and say, Why?

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I don't know where to put the pen or I don't know how to set this up so it works.

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I don't know how to do this too. So the puppies not being frustrated or the puppies not being overstimulated

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or under stimulated, and it takes

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2 minutes of being in the house to help them with that.

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To my point, here's another one;

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I offer my time to my families now with a Facebook private group.

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However, they have to initiate.

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Some have a hard time knowing whether it's just breed behavior versus

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something that needs true diversion or correcting.

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I will have them ask me something that I will gladly help them.

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But in the end, their puppy has their number and is leading the charge.

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Yeah, I've had puppies

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and their owners come and stay with me

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when they were having problems and she's seen the behavior firsthand

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and been like, Yeah, no, I mean no, this, this puppy can't be doing this to you.

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This is just this is a hard no. And I don't mean I correct the puppy, but I just redirect the puppy.

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But you see the difference is I'm not afraid of the puppy.

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I just know this puppy's just pushing.

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It's not it's not a bad puppy. It's not an aggressive puppy.

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But to somebody that doesn't know it, you can't blame people they don't know.

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They need somebody to lay eyeballs on their puppy and say

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yay or nay.

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I just want to say here, I've been going on and on about,

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you know, how we can just show up and say, Oh, yeah, you're puppies normal.

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But sometimes, you know, the puppies not normal.

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That has definitely happened.

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Certainly people have brought me.

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I can think of one in particular that I just said to her

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she'd gotten it from, I don't even know where she got the puppy.

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Some backyard situation, not a good situation.

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And the puppy was emaciated.

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It just it didn't look right and open the crate,

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it wouldn't come out and and it could have even been wormy.

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I asked her to bring the puppy to the vet, make sure it was wormed

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and then she brought it back. And it still was like that.

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And I just was like, you know, this puppy, I

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it was almost like the puppy had brain damage is the only way I can explain it.

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It was not a normal puppy.

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So sometimes the situation is not a good one,

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and sometimes as a breeder, you can walk in and just say, Yeah,

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this is not a normal puppy, whereas a dog trainer is always going to try

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and train the dog in front of them.

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That's not their job really. To say, Yeah, you should get rid of this dog.

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But for me, you know, I look at that puppy and I'm like,

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this is this is an accident waiting to happen. There's something wrong mentally with this puppy.

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In my training seminars, and I traveled the world and I said to Mark,

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if I didn't already have bull terriers, I wouldn't like this breed

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if I only saw them at my seminars because people would bring me all the dogs

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that were like, you know, a little weird. I mean, certainly there was a lot of lovely, lovely ones, but

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people would bring me their dogs that were just mentally not quite right.

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And I don't mean aggressive per se, but just mentally not quite right.

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The late, great Pat Hastings used to say there's mental illness in dogs

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and they would bring me the ones that are just not mentally right.

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That's a question for another podcast.

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Your responsibility as a breeder and advising people and yada yada.

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But my point is that I can tell you, looking at a bull terrier puppy

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in a very short amount of time, whether it's normal or not,

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and I can also tell you what you're going to have to train away, work on

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or just manage, and it's developmental and it will pass.

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So now I'm going to give you those were all you know, those were all the yeas.

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Those were all the people that were like, Yeah, absolutely, we need this.

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And then we got a lot of people really giving pretty hard pushback

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saying, Well, isn't that what a dog trainer or a breeder should do?

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So let's see, here's one.

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Isn't that kind of what we're supposed to be giving our families?

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Whenever I find out that a family is struggling, I do everything

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I can to help them understand the problem and the solution.

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Unless I'm misunderstanding what you're getting at.

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Another one. Surely this is what good breeders give to their puppy

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buyers already we're there for the questions.

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We send lists home with the owners.

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We say don't hesitate to contact us with any questions or problems.

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Some owners need minimum input, but others need guidance on everything.

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And then here's one that says, that's literally a dog trainer, question mark.

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And here's another one, that is a service each breeder should be offering

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if they are unwilling to be available for all questions

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and concerns from their puppy buyers, they should not be breeding.

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As a breeder you're responsible for the puppies you produced

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for their entire lives and you are also responsible

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to the new owners for the life of that puppy.

21:18

And then another person said, I mean, that's a breeder.

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24/7 tech support is the way pure dog talk words it pure dog talk.

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There's a little plug for pure dog talk.

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She has some great episodes on there, another podcast.

21:34

Okay, so

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here's the thing. That woman who said, I mean, that's a breeder 27 tech support.

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Then she thought about it and she came back like a half an hour later and said,

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although that leaves puppy people who get their pup

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from another source like a shelter or an adoption out in the cold.

21:56

Exactly. That's what I'm saying.

21:58

Not only that, but as a breeder, it limits me

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to a very small geographic area where I can place puppies.

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So my rule of thumb has always been I will not

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place puppies further than 5 hours from my house.

22:15

Really, I don't like to go more than two because I want to be able

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to get just in a car, go down, look at the dog.

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My last litter, one of the puppies.

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I just train the puppy myself because he's a sweet, darling puppy.

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But you know, it's just too much for the pet owners.

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It's really like you need a degree in dog training to train this dog.

22:34

He's very environmentally interested and not food motivated.

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So I meet them once a week.

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I train their puppy and he's going to grow out of it. I know.

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But, you know, they went to another dog trainer

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and the dog trainer was like, Oh, you, you need to put a pinch collar on the dog

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because he doesn't pay attention to you. So this is the kind of thing

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that if they lived 10 hours from me, I couldn't offer this.

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So what's happens with me is I wind up

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passing on a lot of really great homes,

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probably people that would make wonderful homes for my puppies.

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But I just can't take a chance because I can't be there for them.

23:12

There was a lot of people that wrote in enumerating

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all they have their Facebook groups, they have

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all their stuff that they do, their group chats, their Zoom meetings.

23:24

And I found it very interesting that

23:27

it's sort of scaled with the size and difficulty of the dogs.

23:31

So toy breeds smaller dogs.

23:35

Those people basically are like, Well, yeah, I mean, we just

23:38

we have zooms, we meet, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, because they're just

23:42

generally easier to manage.

23:44

But as soon as the size of the dog starts going up and also you get into dogs

23:48

that are outliers behaviorally in the sense

23:52

of what's normal, like your primitive breeds and your bull breeds.

23:56

People were saying, Yeah, we really need this.

24:02

Oh, here's another one. As a breeder, I already do this for free for my puppies.

24:08

They have endless access for life of any of my puppies.

24:12

For questions, we set up training, calls for progress and next steps.

24:18

I'm a CPDTKA.

24:20

trainer and offer the same service for any puppy starting at eight weeks.

24:25

Most trainers don't have the litter experience and are way off

24:29

because of their lack of experience with puppies that age.

24:33

Lots of unnecessary mistakes.

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You would tear your hair out if I gave you examples.

24:40

Yeah. Hair being torn already, you know.

24:43

Absolutely. That's my point.

24:47

But listen, I sit on both sides.

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I'm a dog trainer and I am a breeder

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with a lot of experience with dogs and puppies in particular.

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And I really see both sides.

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Dog trainers are very good at what they do, which is training dogs.

25:06

But there does come a point

25:09

where training is not the answer.

25:12

That is where somebody with just the wisdom and experience

25:17

to know puppies can give that puppy owner something else they need.

25:21

That's that's not training.

25:23

To a man with a hammer, every problem looks like a nail

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and I think we suffer a lot from that with sending our puppies

25:30

to dog trainers for behavioral, quote unquote problems.

25:34

In my experience, it's two different buckets.

25:36

They don't sort together at all.

25:39

And you really need

25:41

all kinds of people on your team. You need the dog trainers on your team.

25:46

But I think we're asking too much of the dog trainers

25:49

in a lot of cases, too, to tackle these things.

25:53

Now, what would be my

25:57

wish list is that more trainers were breeders.

26:02

I would love this. So number one, I think it's a great path for trainers to take to do a few litters.

26:09

I always say five generations. You just do just do five generations

26:14

and you place those puppies in homes.

26:17

You whelp the litters, you raise the litters, you place

26:20

the litters, you interface with those puppy owners.

26:24

You are going to know everything you need to know.

26:26

But it does take about five generations because you have to have some stuff

26:29

blow up in your face and it takes time, right?

26:33

To learn. That would be great.

26:35

That would be my dream that that became a thing

26:39

that trainers did, that they they started breeding dogs.

26:43

If philosophically, that's not for you do Foster.

26:47

Whelp litters for Foster. Now, my caveat for that is if I

26:53

were you and I as a dog trainer,

26:55

I want to get expertise in this litter, I would say I would agree to do it,

27:00

but I would stipulate that you place the puppies

27:02

and you follow up with those puppies and you prescribe

27:06

how those puppies are going to be raised and taken care of in their new homes.

27:09

Because, again, you know, rescue organizations can tend to be very controlling about it.

27:14

And I get it. They have to have quality control because most of the people helping litters

27:19

are just good hearted people that don't know much about dogs.

27:23

They're just doing a compassionate thing by helping.

27:27

But as a professional, if you if you want to get to that next level,

27:30

you do really have to place the puppies and deal with them, deal with the puppy owners.

27:36

So I think there could be one or two trainers out there that might be saying,

27:40

no, no, no, I can do this. I don't I don't need somebody that's bred and raised a lot of puppies

27:45

and I'm certified. I know what I'm doing.

27:47

And the only thing I can say to you is this, that

27:51

I who have been training

27:54

professionally for decades and breeding for decades,

27:58

approach this with extreme humility.

28:03

I have an amazing network

28:05

of friends and co moderators in my groups that breed a vast

28:11

array of different breeds, and people will often send

28:16

in a video of a dog, a puppy or a mother doing something.

28:21

And a lot of times it's a group consult

28:24

between the admins and my friends and just say, Hey, does this look normal to you?

28:28

Because this wouldn't be normal in my breed.

28:30

And sometimes it is normal in another breed.

28:33

Sometimes it's not. So what I'm trying to say is

28:38

I think it's an opportunity

28:40

for growth for the dog training industry to embrace this

28:45

and to get some knowledge, some real hands on knowledge with raising

28:50

a lot of puppies, either through fostering or breeding and offering that service.

28:54

That's the trainer that's going to be really in demand.

28:57

That's what we need. As I mentioned, there's the geographic thing.

29:01

I can't place puppies further away than I can get my hands on them.

29:06

But then you've also got people that don't have the breeder support

29:11

and then you have breeders that frankly breed a lot,

29:14

which is okay because somebody has to breed the puppies.

29:18

I hope everybody realizes puppies don't grow on trees, somebody has to breed them,

29:22

and people who breed them professionally often can devote

29:25

more time to them and do a better job than people who breed them as a hobby.

29:30

That's another podcast.

29:32

But when you're breeding a lot, it becomes a lot to handle all the puppy owners.

29:37

And I know the people that I know that breed a lot.

29:39

It is more than a full time job,

29:43

just counseling puppy owners.

29:46

To have a class of professionals that for hire that were really good,

29:50

that were professional, that could offer this service

29:53

would be amazing and a huge benefit to our dog community.

29:58

So yeah, that was a hot topic. If you have more to say about it, be sure and write in either on the show page

30:04

or feel free to join the Puppy Culture Discussion group on Facebook.

30:08

If you like this podcast, you'll love our breeder

30:12

course at madcapuniversity.com.

30:16

Puppy Owners, we have a course for you to at madcapuniversity.com.

30:21

If you think you have an impossible dog,

30:24

check out our dog training book When Pigs Fly!

30:28

Training Success with Impossible Dogs

30:31

available at puppyculture.com.

30:34

Well that's it for this time. Thanks for listening.