0:40

Hi everyone

0:42

. Welcome to another episode of Make your Business Work For

0:44

You . Today is a Q&A episode . I

0:46

pulled in my friend , Justine Clay

0:49

. Justine is a business

0:51

coach and also a certified

0:53

ADHD life coach

0:55

and speaker , and this

0:58

was perfect for today because we have a question about

1:00

running a business with competing priorities

1:02

, like family stuff , while

1:06

navigating ADHD . So

1:08

we are going to have a great conversation about

1:10

this question today . A couple of reminders before

1:13

we jump in . First of all , you can head

1:15

to joinfruition . com to submit questions

1:17

of your own for future episodes

1:19

of the podcast , and you can also join

1:21

us in the community there and come

1:23

to our bi-weekly co-workings

1:26

, our once monthly

1:28

networking for people who hate networking and

1:31

our expert contributor workshops . The

1:33

other is , if you have been finding value in this show,

1:35

I would love it so much if you have

1:37

not already for you to head over to Apple

1:40

Podcasts and leave us a rating and a review

1:42

. Helps us out quite a bit . And

1:44

if you could also share the episodes with folks who you

1:46

know need to hear it , that is a huge help

1:48

as well . We're jumping right into the

1:50

Q&A today . I hope that you enjoy

1:52

. I

2:03

have been running my coaching business

2:05

for the past five years on a part-time basis

2:08

when my kids are in school . It's been

2:10

a slow burner , but that's been

2:12

okay , as I managed lots of unpaid

2:15

caring work too

2:18

. This is where me being dyslexic comes in , because

2:20

now I'm everybody listening . I'm starting to get

2:22

self-conscious about the fact that I'm reading

2:24

this out loud . It's okay , we're gonna get

2:26

through it . This past year, though , I

2:28

have really struggled with focus , attention

2:30

, prioritization . I just don't

2:32

know what the fuck to do

2:34

when I sit at my desk . How do people do this

2:37

? How do they know what to do ? Not

2:40

coincidentally , I was

2:42

diagnosed with ADHD inattentive

2:44

over a year ago . I'm in my 40s . I

2:47

spent a good few months in denial about this diagnosis

2:49

, being angry about it and really dealing

2:52

with my own internal ableism

2:54

. However , in recent months , I

2:56

have been more accepting of my needs and

2:58

limitations . Good

3:00

news , you would think . However , in

3:02

doing that and being kinder to myself , surprise

3:04

, surprise, my old ways of powering through

3:06

and forcing myself to act neurotypical are

3:09

not working . In theory , this is good

3:11

news , right , but the day-to-day

3:13

practical reality of this is

3:15

that I no longer have a way

3:17

, a structure , to do my work . Yes

3:19

, the old way was harmful , but at least shit

3:21

got done . Now I'm just floating around

3:23

and feeling like shit . So my question is really

3:26

about when someone has executive functioning

3:28

limitations , time and date blindness

3:30

and inability to prioritize , how

3:33

can I support myself in my business so

3:35

that the work that I am passionate about and

3:38

have great clarity around my vision

3:40

, my process , my offerings thanks to

3:42

Brooke but I am so limited

3:44

in the accountability , delivery

3:46

and prioritization of tasks . It's

3:49

so exhausting . I imagine the

3:53

solution lies in using tools, systems

3:55

and calendars to support me and I am

3:57

so resistant to this , like a

3:59

child about to have a tantrum

4:01

. Thank you for reading this . It's so

4:04

long . Feel free to amend

4:06

it . We are not amending it . We are here for

4:08

the whole question . Justine,

4:10

thoughts .

4:13

OK thoughts . So what I love

4:15

about my

4:17

ADHD clients is

4:19

you always get context

4:21

right and lots of it , and

4:23

I love it because it's helpful and

4:26

people are always worried , like you know

4:28

. Is she tracking ? Is she not tracking

4:30

? I'm tracking , so I

4:32

think it might be beneficial for me to just

4:35

maybe articulate what I

4:37

heard in there . Maybe just tease

4:39

some of the salient points out

4:41

and we can maybe just tackle them from there

4:43

. How does that sound ? [Brooke Monaghan] Love it

4:46

[Justine Clay] All right , all right . So first thing I hear

4:48

this is a

4:50

woman in her 40s , she

4:52

is a mother , she is an entrepreneur

4:55

, she was recently diagnosed

4:57

with ADHD

5:00

inattentive presentation and

5:02

she's been running her coaching business for five years

5:04

, full time . So

5:06

this is just even when I'm thinking about

5:08

, I'm just connecting with who the person is

5:11

and my first thought

5:13

is that's a

5:15

lot of things going on

5:17

, right , so no

5:19

wonder it's

5:21

exhausting , no wonder she's

5:24

exhausted . I want to just call that

5:26

out , that this is a lot

5:28

of things , right .

5:30

Yeah , like maybe you're not broken because

5:33

you're exhausted and maybe this is an exhausting

5:36

situation .

5:38

Exactly , exactly . This is a very natural

5:40

response to a lot of stuff happening

5:42

right . And

5:44

then what I really hear as well

5:46

and this is so common and I hear it a lot

5:48

, especially with we

5:51

have adults , but I would even specify

5:54

women , who get an adult

5:56

diagnosis there's

5:59

such a lot of emotional stuff that goes along with

6:01

that , because , as we're

6:03

now learning , adhd

6:05

is not a boys thing , it's

6:07

an equally boys and girls thing . It's

6:10

just that girls present differently . Patrons

6:12

means that we mask

6:14

and we cover up and we are like the

6:17

good one , so we

6:19

struggle sort of behind the scenes , but

6:22

meanwhile we are still struggling

6:24

right and so with all of this

6:26

, but not letting anyone see it , whereas it's

6:28

fine for the little boys to be bouncing off the walls and

6:30

being hyperactive or whatever it is , and

6:33

that's okay , right . So one

6:35

of the things I've already heard and I should just clarify

6:37

I'm neurotypical , but I am the

6:39

parent of a child

6:42

with ADHD , I'm the wife of a

6:44

man with ADHD and

6:46

I'm a coach for folks with ADHD

6:48

. So one of the things

6:50

I've observed from all of those people in

6:52

my worlds that receive

6:54

an adult diagnosis , especially women , is

6:56

there's a lot of grief that goes along

6:59

with it . That needs to be processed . And

7:01

, as anyone who

7:03

knows even nothing about grief , we all know

7:06

that it's not a linear process . We

7:08

all know that it's really complex and really nuanced

7:10

and can kind of really go on , you know

7:12

, for a long time . There's layers and layers and layers of

7:14

it . So just the

7:16

fact that she only got this diagnosis a year ago

7:18

is this is still

7:21

fresh . [Brooke Monaghan] Yeah , yeah . [Justine Clay] And

7:23

it's going to be a lot of those things

7:25

. And now let's put on top of

7:27

it the emotional work

7:30

that comes from , as she

7:33

said , recognizing her own internal ableism

7:35

. I experienced that

7:37

as the mother of a child with ADHD . It's

7:40

not cute , right ? That's

7:42

not . That's confronting and deep

7:44

work . So there's

7:46

a lot of things going on there . So I just want to like

7:49

oh , no , that as

7:51

well . Yeah

7:54

, this stuff

7:56

takes time and space and a

7:59

whole ton of compassion and all the preparations

8:01

on how to actually doing the work .

8:03

Yeah , and I just want to note for

8:06

the sake of anybody listening , it sounds like

8:09

you're saying anyone who , basically

8:11

anyone who is like assigned female , right

8:13

, like anyone who went through being

8:17

assigned female and then having those

8:19

expectations

8:22

put on you . It's a

8:24

unique experience because

8:27

of what we know about well . I

8:30

mean , I feel like I know an awful lot about

8:32

this from being finding

8:35

out that I was dyslexic very late in life . But similar

8:38

thing , it's like there's just very people

8:41

who are assigned female are expected to handle it

8:43

in a much different way and the expectations

8:46

on that group

8:49

of people are very different .

8:51

Absolutely and yeah , it's a

8:53

good sort of reflection of what I was

8:55

trying to communicate , so absolutely . And the other thing

8:57

that she mentioned in there that I

8:59

also I have two kids myself . I've

9:03

got an eight year old and a 12 year old is

9:05

that , no matter how

9:07

much you have boundaries and a

9:10

great partner and all of these things

9:13

, the fact of the matter is

9:15

that the majority of the labor at

9:18

home does fall on the woman . No matter how hard

9:20

you try to get out from underneath it , there's

9:23

still . Even if you manage to carve

9:25

out more equity in the division of labor

9:27

at home , it's

9:30

still a Herculean effort . You're still fighting

9:32

against societal norms . You're fighting against

9:34

your parents

9:36

and teachers and the teacher emailing me if there's something going

9:38

with the kid or not

9:40

, emailing my husband , right , well , it's like death

9:43

by a thousand cuts . So just

9:45

also just to acknowledge that

9:48

she's got all of these things

9:50

that she's juggling while dealing with

9:54

the , not just

9:56

the diagnosis but then the awareness

9:58

around the limitations that come with

10:02

a brainwiring that works that way in

10:05

a neurotypical world , I should say [Brooke Monaghan] Right . [Justine

10:07

Clay] I'm not saying that brainwiring is limited

10:09

, it's just with the working in a neurotypical world , there's

10:13

some some gaps , right

10:17

, what

10:20

I hear her struggles are focus

10:24

, attention and prioritization

10:27

. That's what I hear her

10:29

saying , primarily in

10:31

tests , in multiple ways . And

10:34

then there's a question I'd love to ask later which

10:36

is ? Or I could ask it now which is ? And she says I

10:39

imagine the solution lies in using

10:41

tools , systems , calendars to support me

10:43

. And I'm so resistant to this . And she even

10:45

talks about being like a child , about to throw a tantrum

10:48

. I'm so curious about

10:50

that . I wish she was here so I could say what's

10:52

that about ? [Brooke Monaghan] Yeah . [Justine

10:55

Clay] I've got thoughts , I've got some ideas , but

10:57

you know , if

11:01

we can't prioritize

11:03

, focus , struggle

11:05

with time blindness and all of these things , yes

11:08

, it's hard to get shit done , and

11:11

she's evolved beyond

11:13

being like an asshole to herself

11:15

. I hope it's okay that I just said that on your podcast .

11:17

Yes , we are here for all of the swearing .

11:19

Okay , All right , Like

11:22

she was just like being a mean neurotypical asshole to herself

11:24

and now she's like no , that

11:26

doesn't serve me . But what I'm

11:28

hearing is that there's a gap between

11:31

the old way that she

11:33

knew , because that's all that's been modeled her whole life probably

11:36

, but didn't work for her

11:38

, and she hasn't

11:40

yet found what the new thing is .

11:43

And it makes sense right that if the diagnosis

11:46

was only a year ago , it

11:48

makes perfect sense that all of the things that

11:50

have worked , even in a really

11:52

imperfect way , for 40 years , you've

11:55

got to now come up with a new playbook . So

11:59

for me it

12:02

makes all the sense

12:04

in the world that she's exhausted , that she feels

12:07

lost , that she doesn't

12:09

know what will work for her , because

12:12

that's a completely reasonable response

12:15

to what she's got going

12:17

on .

12:18

As I was hearing you talk about the

12:20

. You know what's that about , with

12:23

feeling like a kid

12:25

, about to throw a tantrum . It reminds me

12:27

of my own experience

12:30

, not with ADHD , but

12:32

again with dyslexia , and

12:35

this person was

12:39

trying to sell

12:42

me a book or something like that , and I think that

12:44

I just we were like walking . I was walking down the

12:46

street and this person was like , oh you

12:48

, should , you know , read my book

12:50

or something , and gave me like something and

12:52

I didn't know , somewhere

12:55

along the line , something came up . He was being very

12:57

pushy and I think that at some point I was

12:59

just like I'm dyslexic

13:01

, talk to that person . I pointed to the other person

13:04

that was with me like talk to them , they love reading . Like don't

13:06

talk . And he was like well , dyslexic

13:08

people can read . I don't know if you're aware of that

13:10

, and I wanted to be like if

13:13

one more person tells

13:15

me that I can learn

13:18

how to do this , well , because it was like my

13:20

whole upbringing as a kid

13:23

, right , was like that . Well , first of all

13:25

, I mean no one , no one ever

13:27

acknowledged that I even had a reading issue . But

13:29

the being told

13:32

like , just do this . I

13:35

now have very strong reactions to

13:37

it now , later in life . And so I

13:39

do kind of wonder if , like there

13:42

, if some of what might be happening and you

13:44

had said being a neurotypical asshole to yourself , some

13:46

of what might be happening here is like yeah , of course you

13:48

would think that it has to do with these things , because

13:50

probably somewhere along the line people were like well

13:53

, just use the tools that are available . That's

13:55

what I do and it works fine . And

13:57

of course your reaction is going to be fuck

13:59

off and leave me alone , because how

14:02

long have you been told that , and now you're gaslighting

14:04

yourself .

14:05

Exactly , exactly , and

14:09

I think that what you're talking about there is something

14:11

that , like , people just say , well , why

14:13

don't you just use a

14:15

calendar ? Well , no shit Sherlock . I

14:18

didn't think that , right , of

14:20

course I tried using a calendar . Of course I've

14:22

tried writing a list , right

14:26

, or you just need to get up an hour earlier

14:28

, or there's

14:32

such like oblivion or

14:34

obliviousness in all of this

14:36

advice coming from people who don't know

14:39

what it feels like to be writing

14:42

with the equipment that you

14:45

have , and every person is unique , right ? So

14:48

there was a saying in my coaching course . It

14:50

was you've met one person with ADHD

14:52

. You've met one person with ADHD , right ? It's

14:56

sure it's the same with dyslexia and anything else

14:58

.

14:59

It presents very differently and also

15:02

with anything it's like really what we're talking

15:04

about is just that you check a certain

15:06

number of criteria and we've

15:09

decided that you check enough of the criteria

15:11

to be grouped into this one thing . But , like these

15:13

, like harsh categories

15:15

don't really exist in the way that

15:17

, like with any kind

15:20

of I mean most of what

15:22

we're diagnosing with people with that has

15:24

to do with anything mental . So

15:27

, yeah , it presents totally differently , and

15:29

so what works for you is going to be probably

15:31

something that you have to figure out for

15:34

yourself , and

15:37

I can imagine that's incredibly frustrating

15:39

.

15:39

Absolutely , and

15:41

I think that what you said about your experience

15:43

I think it also just reminds me,

15:47

and why I was curious was I wonder if she

15:49

knows why . [Brooke Monaghan] Oh , yeah , yeah

15:51

. [Justine Clay] Because I think that's important , right

15:53

, I think it's important for us to like , as you say , I

15:56

know why I reject someone

15:58

telling me what to do because

16:00

I've always been told what to do by people who had no

16:02

damn idea what was the hell was going on or what

16:04

they were talking about . Right , if

16:06

we know that , we can just

16:08

be like . It's not that the tools

16:11

themselves are bad . I'm just

16:13

resistant to the people who keep

16:16

telling me to use the thing and the way

16:18

that they use it . That's

16:20

my , my beef , right ? But

16:23

I think that's interesting because there are

16:25

some things that you can pretty much disregard as

16:28

like common wisdom

16:30

, and the first is that you need to be a morning

16:32

person . So

16:35

many with ADHD have a late rhythm

16:37

, so their best hours may be between

16:40

midnight and four am . So

16:42

first things first is

16:44

you don't have to be a morning person

16:47

.

16:48

Wait , so you're saying that there is a correlation

16:51

between ADHD and having a late rhythm

16:53

? [Justine Clay] Yes . [Brooke Monaghan] Interesting , I did not

16:55

know that .

16:56

Yes , like that

16:58

, my husband being one of them . When I met him

17:00

, he would go to bed at like one , two every

17:02

morning and like

17:05

a , you know , like me , like a neurotypical

17:07

person sometimes , but he fights

17:09

it every night it's a fight , because when

17:11

the day quiets down , if you think

17:14

about you

17:16

know , and you know I've heard people describe this way and it's

17:18

overly simplistic , but , like you know , having

17:21

a billion browsers open in your brain , like

17:24

that's kind of how it feels , right , there's

17:26

just a lot of input and

17:29

there's just a less

17:31

filtering of information .

17:35

ust the flow of information and paying attention to all of it , or random

17:37

parts equally . So

17:39

imagine that that's your whole day right

17:42

and the brain isn't just sifting things out

17:44

or saying I'm gonna set that aside or I'm not gonna think

17:46

about it . Just it's taking all in

17:48

. So then imagine now you get to 11 o'clock

17:50

, the kids are in bed , the

17:52

dishwasher is going this is my husband I'm using

17:55

him as an example and then he's like he

17:57

picks up his bass and he starts

17:59

playing a little bit . He could lose

18:01

two hours that way . It's

18:05

how his brain , like the rhythm

18:07

of the guitar and

18:10

just like being on his own and being able to just like

18:12

hyper focus in on something , is

18:14

relaxing to him

18:16

. [Brooke Monaghan] Yeah , that makes total sense . [Justine

18:19

Clay] In like the recalibration , right

18:21

. And so for

18:24

folks that say , struggle with prioritization

18:26

, struggle with organizing , you know what

18:29

to do , or bless you if

18:31

they're working in a you know an environment

18:33

where people are throwing deadlines at them and it's just super high

18:35

stress , you know

18:37

nighttime might be the

18:39

time when they can actually work on something

18:41

. No one's

18:44

around and I think there's

18:46

also don't quote me on this but I think there's

18:48

also biologically , the rhythm skews

18:51

late anyway . So I think it's

18:53

a biological component , yeah , and

18:56

then sort of a social component , does

19:00

that make sense ? [Brooke Monaghan] Totally yeah .

19:03

Yeah , that's interesting . I did not , I didn't

19:05

, I was not aware of that .

19:07

Oh and another thing they can disregard , that

19:10

you can only work on one thing at a time . Most

19:13

folks . If you say to them you're

19:15

gonna work on this project , they're gonna just

19:17

freeze . But if you're like here's three

19:19

projects , you pick what one you wanna start

19:21

on or how you wanna

19:24

work on them . Here's the expectations here are the

19:26

whatever . But that's a lot easier

19:28

for folks . [Brooke Monaghan] Oh , okay

19:30

. That's what general contractors . Our

19:32

general contractor . He's as

19:35

ADHD as they come , I swear . He's like

19:37

buzzing around doing all of the things , but you can't get him

19:39

to send you an email . You can ask him

19:41

to get like one invoice sent to you . You

19:43

know he's zipping around doing all of the things that he's got

19:45

all in his head .

19:46

Right , right . So what

19:49

I'm -- What immediately comes to mind

19:51

for me hearing that because I

19:54

have worked with so many people who have had such

19:56

a hard time trying to figure out systems that work for them

19:58

is that , like for some people , it

20:00

works really well for them to have like a

20:02

plan and it's like just show up at

20:05

your desk . I'm like this I wanna show up at my

20:07

desk and I wanna have my list of the five things that I

20:09

decided I was gonna do that day and I wanna do those five things

20:11

. For other people , it works a lot

20:13

better to have like a much longer list of things

20:15

, maybe prioritize , like which of these

20:17

things are like they need to get done , and

20:20

but then show up and like choose

20:22

which ones you're gonna do that day , on the day of

20:24

, and do them when

20:26

it feels good for you , and maybe you allow

20:29

yourself to do some

20:31

things that are not quote unquote work related

20:34

during the day , knowing you might come back to it

20:36

later at night and maybe you know

20:38

, and if that works for you , like that

20:40

works a lot better for some people and it sounds

20:42

like in this person's case , that's

20:44

more of what they're craving and you're

20:46

saying that that's actually gonna work better anyways

20:49

, to give themselves a little bit more flexibility

20:51

. [Justine Clay] Yeah , totally so

20:53

. [Brooke Monaghan] Interesting .

20:55

That was a great reframe of what

20:57

I was saying that you pulled out exactly the perfect point

20:59

. So , exactly so . But what

21:01

they're then dealing with is they're

21:04

having to then swim upstream against what they are

21:06

told is the right way to

21:08

do things or what is productive . And

21:11

so that's where , like , just having that sense

21:13

of confidence and autonomy

21:15

about like no , this is how

21:18

I do this , which , by the way , is why so

21:20

many neurodivergent people are also entrepreneurs

21:23

, because they're working

21:25

their way and they can work on their own hours , right ?

21:29

Yeah , to your point , get

21:31

the things out of the way that you . Still

21:33

it can't be completely open , because then

21:35

it's low container . But

21:39

if there are certain things , and then there's only one

21:41

thing I would say you should have a routine

21:44

about . Admin , because

21:46

admin is like kryptonite for

21:49

most folks I know with ADHD . It's

21:51

like there are some rules

21:53

about anything with ADHD

21:55

that I think I've learned , or principles

21:58

let's say . Make it interesting , make

22:00

it meaningful , make it visual

22:03

, make it visible and

22:05

mix it up . So

22:08

, for the most part , admin doesn't check

22:11

any of those boxes . The

22:13

most you can really do is like I'm gonna make it meaningful

22:16

in that , like I'm doing this

22:18

thing so that

22:20

my business runs , I make this

22:22

money , I can put my kid

22:24

into whatever . It's

22:27

gotta be connected to something else , not just like admin

22:29

for the sake of it . And so that's

22:32

so difficult for folks to kind of get

22:34

over that hump , I would say Friday

22:37

morning , no negotiation , or whatever day

22:39

it is , that's admin day and you

22:41

just get it done because you're never gonna

22:43

wanna do it and waiting

22:45

for that inspiration to strike . And then what happens

22:47

is when folks do neglect

22:50

that and they don't know where their

22:52

invoices are and they haven't invoiced for the job , and now

22:54

they start getting into financial situations

22:57

and then that is really stressful

23:01

. So that's the one thing where I'm a bit more of

23:03

a hard ass and just like that's the one thing . You've just

23:05

gotta like get over yourself and

23:09

do the damn thing , because once you start , for the

23:11

most part it's okay .

23:13

Yeah , and it sounds too like something

23:16

that comes up as you say that that

23:18

I'm curious about is like , or that

23:20

I would add , maybe is getting

23:24

curious about how you

23:26

like little things that you can do that make doing

23:28

the boring stuff more enjoyable . So

23:32

one of my favorite

23:34

hacks this is a life hack of

23:36

my life .

23:38

I use this all the time . Things I don't

23:40

wanna do , I do them in the bathtub . [Justine

23:43

Clay] Amazing . [Brooke Monaghan] I literally I

23:46

cannot tell you how many emails,

23:48

I love

23:50

writing sales copy and

23:52

marketing , like newsletters in

23:54

the tub . And is it risky that I have

23:56

my laptop on a bathboard across the tub ? Yes

23:59

, it is . It's a risk that I am willing to take

24:01

because I do my best work

24:03

in tub . And things like anything I don't wanna

24:05

do . I'm like I'm gonna get in the bubble bath . I

24:08

don't care what time of day it is , I'll do it in

24:10

there . But also things like just like . Like

24:13

sitting in a different spot

24:15

in your house that doesn't feel like

24:17

you're allowed to sit there when you're working , you

24:19

know . Like not doing it at your desk . Or like

24:21

making yourself

24:24

like a nice drink

24:26

or something Like doesn't need to be alcoholic , but

24:28

like do you make yourself like a fancy

24:32

coffee drink every time that you sit down for

24:34

your admin or something . Or do you do your admin

24:36

at well . No , for ADHD people , maybe

24:38

doing your admin at a coffee shop is not a good idea , but

24:41

do you do your admin , like

24:43

in a different place . That feels

24:45

like , oh , I'm kind of breaking

24:47

the rules a little bit like . This

24:49

is a place this doesn't really count as work

24:51

, but this is where I'm gonna get it done , you know .

24:54

Yeah , and sometimes putting yourself into a sort of

24:56

a novel environment might be enough

24:58

to give it interest and

25:00

novelty , because that's the other thing

25:02

is like the ADHD brain like , likes new

25:04

things and it likes novelty

25:07

and interest and it hates boring things

25:09

, right , which

25:12

is like we can all relate to , which is kind of funny how she used

25:14

the sort of tantrum child thing , right

25:16

, like it's just like it's a good analogy . Yeah

25:18

, our brains are sometimes

25:20

so . I love that and it's funny because that's

25:23

so personal to you , because I'm one of those people

25:25

I'm not a bath person and I never have

25:27

been . So I'm hearing this and I'm just like , oh my God , I can't think of

25:29

anything worse , right . But when you say

25:31

the coffee shop , I'm just like , oh yeah , I like that

25:33

idea and actually I just what

25:35

, when I wanna write something , because I'm

25:38

in a different environment , I can't

25:40

really go anywhere . It's kind of a treat

25:42

because I can have my coffee and my cake or whatever

25:44

it is . So I gamify

25:47

it or at least just make

25:50

it more interesting for yourself .

25:52

Yeah , yeah , so

25:55

, okay . So , admin , is the one thing

25:57

that you would say create some

25:59

kind of routine around . You can get curious

26:01

about how to make that routine a little bit

26:03

more bearable , but it's the one thing

26:05

maybe to hold yourself to . And then what

26:08

would you say about like , how to like

26:10

, where this person can start maybe

26:13

to sort of work

26:15

out a better system for themselves , to like at

26:18

least feel like they know what it is

26:20

that they're doing and they're doing the right things .

26:22

Yeah , that's a really good point . So I

26:27

think the first thing I would do is I always like

26:29

to look big picture at the business

26:32

and I would say what

26:35

area of the business feels

26:37

most chaotic to me . All

26:40

my process right . So

26:42

the person who asked this question

26:44

. The things that she was really asking for

26:46

about was how do I prioritize tasks

26:49

, how to focus on delivery

26:51

and accountability . Those

26:54

are the three things that I

26:56

pulled out of there . So , with

26:59

the prioritizing , I would

27:01

say that I'm just looking at my notes

27:03

. Right here We've

27:06

talked about the reframing of like structure

27:08

and productivity a little bit , whereby it's like

27:10

, instead of thinking about it being a linear

27:12

thing or something that just

27:14

feels like really restrictive

27:17

and uncreative and

27:19

tight , think of it

27:21

more like a framework , Like

27:24

. You know those I don't know if you were around when you were

27:26

a kid , but we used to have in England these climbing

27:28

frames . They're like a dome . [Brooke Monaghan] Yeah , yeah , yeah

27:30

! [Justine Clay] And then you can climb on it any

27:32

which way , but literally you've got kids climbing on the inside

27:34

You've got people using like a monkey

27:37

bar , right . So the structure

27:39

is there , but then how you engage with it

27:41

can be multiple different

27:43

ways , right . So the first

27:46

thing I would think about is , like , what are the areas

27:48

of my business and those kind of fall into , like broadly

27:51

, a few categories Value

27:53

creation , value

27:56

delivery , marketing

27:59

, sales

28:01

, finance and admin ? I'll

28:04

say finance and admin in one , because , especially with small

28:06

businesses , film and as pop , you can push them in together

28:08

. So it sounds

28:10

to me like for the most

28:12

especially

28:14

ADHD folks and creatives , is

28:17

the value creation bit , which is like coming

28:19

up with the ideas , coming up with the . That's

28:21

like try , stop that from happening

28:24

, like you can't , right , yeah , that's

28:27

something that it makes sense where she

28:30

or the creative or the entrepreneur

28:32

should focus on that stuff . That's the unique

28:34

, like connecting existing

28:37

ideas in newer , novel ways . You

28:39

know, all of that good stuff that comes with divergent

28:41

thinking , right . The value

28:43

delivery . Now that's

28:46

where it's like how does this get out into the world

28:48

? How does my framework live in

28:50

the world as a service , as a product ? And

28:52

I know that she says she's done a lot of work on that with you , you

28:54

know , identifying what your products are

28:56

. So then I would say , okay , if

28:59

there's a delivery issue . And

29:02

one of the things I've learned about my ADHD

29:04

clients too is like they love systems

29:06

, they love processes . It's not like

29:08

they can't do that right , but

29:10

like what's the way ? If you're visual , could you come up with like

29:12

a flow chart and just be like write

29:15

down all of the things that either

29:17

I do or I want to do or need to

29:19

happen ? Where are

29:21

either they falling in the gap or

29:23

is the client falling in the gap ? What's

29:26

not working ? Where does it break down ? Is

29:29

it that like they just

29:31

hate answering emails and so then they get behind

29:34

? And then there's the client communication thing , like that's the

29:36

problem , or is it that they never bill

29:38

the thing in time ? Or they don't have an onboarding

29:40

process ? That's like tightened up enough . When

29:45

you know where the hole is

29:47

, that you keep falling in , you can

29:49

build a process or a system for that . Yeah

29:51

, the whole thing about that

29:53

and I know you're a processes and systems person

29:55

is you can create

29:59

a process like literally on a piece of paper , you

30:01

can use a piece of software or

30:04

you can outsource it , usually a combination of

30:06

all three . So

30:09

what are you going to say ?

30:10

Well , as you were saying that , I was just like

30:12

yes , like I always

30:14

say , like anytime

30:17

that anyone's like , oh , things feel so disorganized

30:19

, like I need to come up with a better system , I'm like

30:21

, okay , feeling overwhelmed

30:23

and feeling like things are disorganized

30:26

is a feeling . Then

30:31

there's an actual issue that

30:34

needs to be solved , and they're two different

30:36

things . If you try to

30:38

create a system to make yourself not feel

30:40

a certain way , you're not really

30:43

going to hit the mark because you're not actually

30:45

solving it . You're not actually creating a

30:47

system to solve . You're going to put a balm

30:49

on this like emotional thing

30:51

that you're finding yourself in by

30:53

creating a system without actually

30:56

knowing what the system is for . So

30:58

it's like the first thing you have to do is like identify what the actual

31:00

problem is .

31:01

Exactly , exactly . I

31:04

have a slide in one of my webinars for

31:07

business strategies for ADHD creatives and

31:09

in that I say , like a system

31:12

is a very specific

31:14

solution to a very specific problem

31:17

. So there's

31:19

not like a playbook somewhere

31:21

of the systems you need to have in your business . You

31:24

make them up to resolve

31:27

a problem or

31:29

achieve efficiency

31:31

in something you're doing again and again and again

31:33

and again and again that you don't

31:35

personally need to be doing again and again and again or

31:38

in all different ways reinventing the wheel every time . So

31:41

you're right , it's just like you know , and that's

31:43

a thing is a lot of times with you know sort

31:45

of folks of ADHD is they do

31:47

feel overwhelmed a lot . So

31:50

even just that parsing out

31:52

, I feel overwhelmed . It's

31:56

not a system for feeling overwhelmed . But

31:58

let me look what's the thing

32:00

that causes me the most agita ? You

32:03

can just look at it and break it down into like

32:05

the parts of a business which aren't that many

32:08

. Then there's usually

32:10

somewhere where you're like oh , here's

32:12

where it keeps going on , because I hate doing bookkeeping

32:14

, and because I hate doing bookkeeping , I

32:17

don't know what my numbers are . And because I don't know

32:19

what my numbers are , I feel like I have

32:21

no value or no worth . And because I do that

32:23

, I'm really shit at sales

32:25

calls , right , it

32:28

could . Just if I knew what

32:30

was coming in and going out , I'd

32:32

feel pretty proud of myself or I'd

32:34

know what I need to do . But I'd have clarity

32:36

and it might . I don't want to do big

32:38

bookkeeping Hallelujah , I celebrate

32:41

the decision , but then find someone else that can do it for you . Right

32:43

, don't just ignore it , right

32:45

? But now we have a very specific problem

32:48

or diagnosis

32:50

I don't like doing bookkeeping and

32:52

that's the cause of all of the

32:54

financial distress I'm feeling that's

32:56

now bleeding out into all the other parts of my business

32:59

. The solution for that is

33:01

I need someone to do my bookkeeping

33:03

and , yes , I need a software , and

33:05

I probably need someone that can come in and clean

33:08

it all up and get it all on an even scale or

33:10

whatever right and then it becomes a very

33:12

I'm

33:15

not saying an easy problem to solve , but a very clear problem

33:17

to solve .

33:19

Right , yeah , totally , yeah

33:22

, totally . So

33:25

for this person , you know , one of the things

33:27

that she

33:29

had said was struggling

33:31

with prioritization , and

33:34

so it sounds like what you're saying is like

33:36

okay , so if you so , like , let's start with prioritization

33:38

, then let's get specific about , like

33:40

, is it actually that

33:42

? Is it that you are not sure what

33:44

any of the tasks are that need to get done and so there's nothing

33:47

to prioritize ? Is it that you know what

33:49

needs to get done but you haven't sat down and actually

33:51

decided , like , what are the things that are most important

33:53

? Is it that you know , like

33:55

, what is actually happening around

33:58

prioritization , or are you just telling yourself

34:00

a story that you're a person who doesn't

34:02

know how to prioritize stuff , or you're really dropping the

34:04

ball with prioritization , because

34:07

that would

34:09

make sense that you would be telling yourself that story

34:11

as somebody who's neurodivergent and is living in

34:13

a you know , in a neurotypical

34:16

world , and it was probably told that

34:18

you don't prioritize well , yeah

34:21

, right , and so , yeah

34:23

, it's like parsing that out , like where's the thing

34:25

that you're telling yourself and then like , what's

34:27

the actual thing that's happening in there and

34:30

how can we get specific on it ? Then you can come up

34:32

with a system and whatever that system is really

34:34

. The only thing that matters is that you do it , yeah

34:37

.

34:37

Exactly . And here's the other thing . This

34:40

is something I learned when I had babies

34:42

. They're

34:45

just like an enigma . You don't know what the hell

34:47

they need . If anyone

34:49

tells me , oh , I know what cry means what I'm just

34:51

like I call BS because it's all

34:54

just noise to me . It's

34:56

like you don't know what to do . There's no handbook

34:58

, right . And then you figure something

35:00

out and you're like I

35:02

cracked it . And then next week

35:05

it's like yeah , and then you have the second

35:07

kid and then you think okay , I got this , and

35:10

that's a completely different alien , right ? Like

35:13

the first one . So it's a little

35:15

bit like that with someone who has

35:17

a neurodivergent brain is like , stop

35:21

thinking that if you can

35:23

just

35:25

find the right silver bullet , the right process

35:27

, the right this , everything will be fine . This

35:30

is going to be a grab bag , an

35:32

ever-shifting landscape , and

35:35

that just comes with the territory of having this

35:37

fantastic creative brain . Like

35:39

you know , there's a I don't know which guy it is that , I think

35:41

it's Hallowell who says that . Like you know , when he's talking

35:44

to kids about ADHD he talks to , he describes

35:46

it as having a race car brain with bicycle brakes , a

35:48

Ferrari brain . And

35:53

so if you acknowledge

35:55

and just say , like it's always

35:57

going to be changing , it's always going to be shifting

36:00

. I'm going to have to keep mixing it up , so

36:03

I need a grab bag of tools

36:05

and things I can try . Then

36:08

you don't beat yourself up about like , why do I keep

36:11

blah , blah, blah ? My husband often says when he loses his keys

36:13

. I'm driving myself crazy . And

36:16

I'm like . Yeah , me too

36:18

. A little , you

36:20

know just . But you

36:23

know what I mean . It's just like that's not

36:25

kind to yourself . Yeah , I

36:28

didn't put them in the bowl that we put there for

36:31

okay . Well , that happens sometimes

36:33

, but 90% of the time they end up in the bowl now because we put the

36:35

bowl there for the keys .

36:37

What I'm hearing and what you're saying , and this is something that I

36:39

have . I cannot tell you the number of times that

36:41

I have taken out like a planner or something

36:43

and then like , look at this planner , look at how

36:46

well I had it filled out for like three weeks

36:48

, and then there's nothing after that . And then I moved

36:50

to a different system . I happened to

36:52

have fallen into a system that's worked for me for the past

36:54

couple of years with Asana , but , like , still

36:57

there's things that I'm always dipping in and out

36:59

of , but I have found

37:01

that so many people need

37:03

permission to

37:05

use something for a period of

37:07

time that works for them and

37:10

then , if you stop using

37:12

that system -- [Justine Clay] You didn't fail

37:14

. [Brooke Monaghan] No , and I always

37:16

am like , listen , like you have a choice . At

37:18

that point , you can either put your energy into

37:21

beating yourself up for the fact that you're not

37:23

sticking with the system , or you could just use

37:25

whatever feels good for you this week and keep moving . The

37:28

goal is not to like figure

37:30

out a way to be a perfectly productive person

37:32

. We've

37:34

all thought that was the goal because of the systems

37:37

that we've lived in , the fact that we've been programmed to think

37:39

that that is our job as human beings , and

37:41

also I know the person

37:43

who wrote in this question and I know that that's

37:45

not actually what you value . So

37:48

it's like , how do you kind of put those values

37:50

into action and start to put your

37:52

energy toward just making

37:55

forward progress in whatever

37:57

way works for you that day , and

37:59

less energy into

38:01

how do I make myself

38:04

work in a way that I've seen other

38:06

people working that I've told myself was the right way to

38:08

do it ?

38:10

Agreed . You know , it

38:13

wasn't until I met my husband almost

38:15

40 , and I was reading a book

38:17

. And I was just like , and I read and read , and read

38:19

. I love reading . And I was just like I hate this book , I

38:21

can't wait till I'm finished with it . And he was like

38:23

, why don't you just stop reading it ? And

38:26

I'm like I was literally

38:30

I thought I was not allowed to

38:32

not finish a book . Now

38:35

I just I

38:37

love the show Friday Night Lights . I had the book . I

38:40

didn't get very far through the first time . The

38:42

second time I was stuck with it . I'm probably

38:45

40

38:47

pages and there's a big book , less 20

38:50

pages from the end . I

38:52

just put it away again . I'm like I can't , I can't finish it , I'm

38:54

just done . Like

38:56

like that's progress ,

38:58

but

39:01

to that point . I think sometimes

39:03

, a lot of times , these answers are unsatisfying

39:05

to someone who's just like yes , I know but I need

39:07

something . So I want to take an idea

39:09

, a suggestion , and

39:12

it's a concept from Tiago

39:14

Forte and it's the building

39:16

of a second brain right

39:18

. So if we think

39:20

about our brain , our brain

39:23

we use as a storage unit

39:25

, as a calendar , as

39:27

a problem solving

39:29

machine , as all kinds of

39:31

things , beautiful kinds of things that it's not supposed

39:33

to be used for . Our

39:36

brain is basically something that makes

39:38

guesses what's going to happen , what

39:41

all we need to do in response to that thing . It's a predictor

39:43

, a guesser , and it's a

39:45

problem solving machine . That's

39:48

it . Now , if you think

39:50

about someone who has

39:52

less

39:55

than optimal executive functioning and

39:57

that's at the conductor at the front , there's just like a big right

39:59

, You'll be a bit louder and like no , you'll never

40:01

be quite over here . And yes , trumpets

40:04

really loud , please . That

40:06

guy's out to lunch , he's drunk , right . So

40:08

let's say , oh my

40:11

God , I completely lost my train .

40:15

We can let the brain do its thing , which

40:17

is come up with ideas , connect

40:20

things in novel ways . Where

40:22

could that stuff live

40:24

outside of your brain ? So

40:27

what that looks like for me and the

40:29

tool you use will be different . I

40:31

have what I call a dashboard , a leadership

40:33

dashboard in Notion . It

40:36

was initially created by Tara McMullin

40:38

of Explore what Works . I

40:40

love it . You can make it your own , but

40:42

in it I have my three

40:45

commitments . I do one for

40:47

each year , my commitments for the year and

40:50

what that looks like in terms of strategic priorities . So

40:52

commitments are how am I going to show up

40:54

? What am I going to prioritize in my life

40:56

? Not goals . So

40:59

I'm going to commit to having

41:02

deeper relationships , experiences

41:05

over stuff , community

41:08

building . Let's say those are my commitments

41:11

. And then my strategic priorities and I do it within

41:13

the context of business , but might be I'm going to

41:15

give more talks , I'm going to do more

41:17

in-person connecting with folks

41:19

and blah , blah , blah . Right , so these are my priorities

41:21

. Then you can have your values

41:23

in there . So the things that are these

41:25

guiding principles . So , if

41:27

you think of it like as , like a one-pager

41:30

, where it's almost like a cheat sheet , all

41:33

the things I said mattered and

41:35

all the things I said I wanted to focus on . So

41:38

then I've got , like , my quarterly

41:40

goals . Let's focus

41:42

a bit less on that . But then I've got my projects . I've

41:45

got my active projects , I've got my

41:47

projects for next quarter and I've

41:49

got my projects for the year . And

41:53

the reason I like Notion is because you can have tiles

41:55

and you can put an image in there , so there's a little visual

41:57

and then there's a title so I can see it and you

41:59

can move them around . You can just drag it to different

42:02

places and I have

42:04

what am I tracking

42:06

? And those are like the things like

42:08

numbers , right , like how

42:10

many intro calls did I have . One of the things that

42:12

I can connect with that are gonna tell me

42:15

how , what am I doing ? And it's so simple . It's

42:17

just a one-pager you can . And

42:19

then I've got a spot where I can put ideas . So if

42:21

I have an idea for something when I'm out for a walk

42:23

, I'm not now like , oh my God , I have

42:25

to go build that program right now . Right , I'm

42:28

like it's a good idea . Now

42:30

is not the time for me to flush this out because

42:32

I said I'm gonna do this thing . It's

42:35

in my projects list . So

42:37

it's a way where we can like not lose

42:39

the things . It has

42:42

to live outside of our brain and

42:45

be on your phone . It can be here . You can make it a mix

42:47

of visual as well as everything else

42:49

. And it's this cheat sheet .

42:52

And it's like so anytime she sits down

42:54

she's like what the fuck am I gonna do today ? She

42:56

can open up that thing that she created when

42:58

she was feeling more centered , more

43:01

connected to what she wants to do , and she's like well

43:03

, I've got any one

43:05

of five projects I could work on right now , right

43:09

, oh , wait a minute . It's Friday at noon , that's

43:12

bookkeeping time , but that'll just take me an

43:14

hour . I don't know how that rolls now . And

43:16

any one of these projects , let

43:18

me pick something .

43:20

Yeah , just giving yourself

43:23

a external thing that you can

43:25

look at to remind yourself of , like what you said was

43:27

important , yeah , and

43:29

what you said that you were gonna focus on and what you

43:31

can do . And then , but then in that moment , giving yourself

43:33

the flexibility to

43:35

choose , and I wonder

43:37

if what could be helpful as

43:40

like a tangible thing that this

43:43

person might be able to do . As

43:45

I'm hearing you say this , Justine , I'm thinking like what

43:48

I would wanna do and

43:51

listen . I am so overwhelmed

43:53

right now and luckily I have a second

43:55

brain and my second brain is called Asana . But

43:57

if I didn't have it , what I would be so

43:59

tempted to do is I would wanna sit down and I would wanna like

44:02

brain dump every single thing that felt like it was knocking

44:04

around in my brain and then look

44:06

at that and be like , okay , what are there like

44:08

categories here that I can kind of

44:10

like organize

44:12

things into and then make your own , whatever

44:15

it is and it doesn't need to be in Notion , like

44:17

you could put it on post-its

44:19

if you wanted to and like put it on your wall . [Justine Clay] You could use your

44:22

board and just put it on your wall exactly .

44:24

[Brooke Monaghan] Yeah but then at least it's

44:26

like it's out of your brain and you

44:28

are not having to put energy

44:30

into worrying that you're gonna miss something

44:32

which is only draining capacity

44:35

from being able to actually execute on

44:37

the things .

44:38

Exactly . I always like to think of

44:40

executive function as like , like

44:43

the battery that we see on our , you know

44:45

, on our computer . And I say , every time

44:47

we have to keep making decisions , every time we have

44:49

to create choices , every time we have to remember to do

44:51

something , we're like draining .

44:53

Yeah .

44:54

Like just faster , and you wanna keep

44:56

that battery as like full

44:58

as possible , right , and

45:00

be utilized . So things that matter to

45:02

you , not on a bunch of stuff that doesn't

45:05

matter , which is like worrying because I feel

45:07

so overwhelmed . Right , that's not

45:09

- not to say it doesn't matter , but just it's

45:11

a big output functioning

45:14

right , that could be negated

45:17

, potentially .

45:19

Justine , is there anything that , like we have not

45:21

chatted about in response to this question

45:23

, that you feel like is important for us to speak

45:25

to ?

45:27

[Justine Clay] The accountability piece, that's

45:30

kind of like closing the loop on this

45:32

stuff , right , Because we have

45:34

the feelings and you and I were in a coaching

45:37

group together for a long time when we

45:39

have a problem

45:41

in our business a

45:44

legit problem , but it's usually

45:46

layered with a whole bunch of emotions that come from

45:48

us , some of this , some background , right . And

45:51

then when you have other people around you , they

45:54

say , well , what I'm hearing is a conflation of these

45:56

two things , or remember

45:58

that thing that you did here , or I

46:00

had that experience and like , this is how

46:02

I did this , and then you just say , oh okay , no

46:04

big deal , right , and then you go away and you do it and you're done

46:06

, right , I think accountability

46:09

is really great

46:11

, and accountability can look like

46:13

lots of different ways right , it could be a coach , it

46:15

could be a group , or it could be a

46:18

few friends that also are small business

46:20

owners I did that for years where it's

46:22

like you meet every like , whatever

46:25

once a week in the morning and

46:27

you just have someone . And there

46:29

are a few simple questions what are

46:31

the three things you're working

46:33

on right now ? Or what's the one thing you're working on right now . What's

46:36

the thing that you're struggling with ? What

46:38

support do you need ? Getting

46:41

it out of your head is

46:44

so amazing . So to

46:46

build that sort of feedback

46:48

loop with a few trusted people or one trusted person

46:50

or whatever , is amazing . The

46:52

other thing is you can do body doubling

46:55

. That's something that is an ADHD

46:57

thing and you can just

46:59

look up body doubling and you can either

47:01

create your own , but also there are places that

47:03

just host them so you

47:05

can pay a little bit like a coworking

47:07

space . You show up , it's a Zoom room . Sometimes

47:10

you talk , sometimes you don't . It's for a certain

47:12

amount of time .

47:13

We do them twice a month in Fruition for free

47:16

. So join fruition . com

47:18

, everybody come and join us . We have a Friday

47:21

in the beginning of the month and a Monday at

47:23

the end of the month , and it's totally

47:25

silent and we block 90 minutes

47:27

and you can put in the chat what

47:29

it is that you want to accomplish during that time

47:31

and nothing is recorded . You don't

47:33

even need to be on video . And when I tell

47:35

you that I

47:37

get so much done during that time , I'm like why

47:40

haven't I been doing this the whole time ?

47:42

Yes , so there you go . So that's the final

47:44

piece to her question . I think we

47:46

spoke about prioritization , we spoke about delivery

47:49

and we spoke about accountability .

47:51

Yeah , amazing . [Justine

47:53

Clay] I hope that helps her [Brooke Monaghan] Thank you . Justine , yeah

47:55

, and I also understand the

47:59

. It can be so frustrating when you just

48:01

want an answer , but , truly

48:03

, when

48:06

you are trying to find something

48:08

that works for you , when you're realizing that

48:10

you don't do things in a typical way

48:12

, forcing yourself into

48:14

an answer is the opposite of

48:17

the actual answer , which is to

48:19

get curious

48:21

about your own experience and what actually works for you

48:24

. Yeah , yeah

48:26

, but thank you for all of these tips

48:28

. This has been a great conversation . I know

48:30

so many people are going to need this and

48:33

I really enjoyed connecting with you on this

48:35

.

48:35

Thank you . Thanks for inviting me to chat with

48:37

you . I loved it . [Brooke Monaghan] Of course .