0:22

Hello friends and welcome back to a new

0:24

episode. Today we continue

0:27

the theme of talking with coffee producers

0:29

instead of talking just about them. Longtime

0:32

listeners of the podcast will remember Pranoy

0:34

from his first appearance on the podcast back

0:36

in episode 34 in May 2021.

0:39

If you didn't catch his first appearance, get

0:41

ready to be soothed by the smooth sounds

0:44

of his voice. Pranoy has a type

0:46

of voice where he could start a side hustle by recording

0:48

guided meditations. We'd

0:50

actually had been in talks to do a second

0:52

episode for a while, but I

0:54

wanted to wait until I could see him in

0:57

person instead of doing it over Zoom. So

0:59

this is another one of those rare opportunities

1:01

where I get to be in the same room as somebody else

1:03

and this happened because Pranoy

1:06

came to Indonesia to be a participant

1:08

in FTC. It

1:10

was the, kind of the first time we

1:12

were meeting in person, but it really didn't

1:14

feel like it. Meeting Purnoy in real

1:16

life was like seeing a friend I hadn't seen in a

1:18

while. After the workshop

1:21

in Bandung, a few participants went to Jakarta

1:23

to spend a few days before flying back home. So

1:26

this conversation that you're about to hear was

1:28

recorded in Jen Green's living room. Shout

1:31

out to Jen and Drew from Goodall Exporters

1:33

for being such excellent hosts. Okay,

1:36

one of the major themes of the conversation

1:38

with Pernoy was how often coffee

1:40

producers are presented in a one dimensional

1:42

way, or worse, used as props

1:44

to sell coffee. We also continue

1:47

the theme of travel that began in episode 54

1:49

with Tom from Sweet Maria's. In

1:52

that conversation, we question the usefulness

1:54

of all the travel done by buyers and how

1:56

perhaps we could rely more on technology

1:58

to make connections and get information. Perhaps

2:01

not all trips to producing countries are

2:03

as necessary as we like to tell ourselves.

2:06

However, in this conversation, you will see the value

2:09

of travel from the other side. In

2:11

the conversation with Tom, there was a sense

2:13

that a part of the specialty coffee industry uses

2:15

origin trips as trophies or collector

2:18

items, opportunities to show off

2:20

and gather Instagram content. But

2:22

in this conversation, you'll hear the potential

2:25

value for producers to travel to other producing

2:27

regions and learn from each other. In

2:30

this conversation, we talk about his experience

2:32

interacting with buyers at coffee events like

2:34

MICE. Which stands for Melbourne

2:36

International Coffee Expo. He

2:38

talks about how he has been able to find new

2:41

markets and to export his coffee. He

2:43

tells us about running a biodiverse farm

2:45

and interplanting avocados as an

2:47

additional source of income. If

2:49

you check out his Instagram, at kerehaklu, you

2:52

will see his delicious avocados weighing...

2:54

Over a kilo each, the size of literal

2:57

American footballs. And

2:59

he tells us how climate change and the once

3:01

predictable monsoon season are currently

3:03

affecting his production. We

3:05

also talk about how COVID revived an interest

3:08

in farm life in India, the Indian

3:10

caste system and the prejudice that still exists,

3:13

as well as how Australian culture influenced

3:15

his view of playing and working. Purnoy

3:18

also mentions Lorena, who was one of the original

3:20

FTC guinea pigs. Lorena

3:22

attended our very first FTC

3:25

in Colombia. She's originally

3:27

from Columbia, but lives in Australia and works

3:29

at Ona Coffee in Melbourne. When

3:31

she heard about FTC Indonesia, she volunteered

3:33

to help run the event. It was really great

3:36

to see Lorena again and to have her help during

3:38

the camp. When she heard

3:40

about FTC Indonesia, she volunteered

3:42

to help run the event. It was really great to

3:44

see Lorena again and have her help, and

3:46

I hope that she starts a trend where we have

3:49

Uh, previous FTC attendees,

3:51

uh, volunteering for future events. Cause it's

3:53

really nice to have that context.

3:56

You know, one of the things that I really love is

3:58

how tight the FTC community

4:00

is. And one of the things that I'm most proud

4:02

of is how often the participants keep

4:04

in touch, not just with me, of course, which is lovely,

4:06

but keep in touch with each other. For

4:09

each camp, we have a WhatsApp chat and

4:11

long after the camp is over, people

4:13

are still popping in and sharing their fermentation

4:15

experiments. They share pictures of their farm

4:18

and even personal updates like weddings

4:20

and you know, trips that they're doing. So

4:23

it's really fun to see that and,

4:25

the very first one that was, you know, back in July,

4:27

so it's been over a year, is still

4:29

pretty active with updates and

4:31

With general sharing. So after

4:34

the FTC in Indonesia, Pranoy

4:36

went to visit Ronnie's farm. Before

4:38

we had this conversation, so FTC ended,

4:40

Purnoy went to visit Rani's farm, and then Nick and I went

4:42

to Jakarta. So he got to see

4:44

firsthand the amazing things that she

4:46

is doing. So you'll mention, you'll hear

4:49

him mention her in this episode. And

4:51

I just found out that Rani will

4:53

soon visit Purnoy in India. So,

4:56

very jealous about that. Anyway,

4:58

let's get to Purnoy. All

5:01

right, let's get started for

5:03

now. I welcome back to making coffee. Thank

5:05

you. Thank you for having me. So I was looking

5:07

at our records and it was two years since our

5:09

last conversation, official

5:12

public conversation, but you and I have maintained

5:15

conversations through WhatsApp,

5:18

through Instagram. You've been, I think you came on a

5:20

couple of discord lives, right? You were, yeah,

5:22

that's right. Sharing your experiences

5:24

there. And then we just got through spending a week

5:26

together. You came from India

5:28

to Indonesia, coming to FTC4.

5:32

So I will ask you a little bit about your perspective

5:34

on that later.

5:35

Absolutely.

5:35

But can you please give us a background

5:38

into, I don't know if we went as deeply

5:40

last episode, into Kerehatlu and

5:42

your family story with coffee and your,

5:44

your role today.

5:46

Yeah, absolutely. So, Kerry Hucklew

5:49

has been a coffee

5:51

farm. I always hesitate at

5:53

the word that I use because we say plantation

5:56

or estate back home, but I find

5:58

that the connotations attached with

6:00

those words mean different things in different

6:02

places. So, farm, it's just a large

6:05

farm, a coffee farm, which

6:07

I describe as bi

6:09

diverse. We grow a lot of alternative

6:12

produce, which.

6:13

So how large is large? Can you give us an area?

6:16

250 acres. I believe

6:18

that's just about, just over 110

6:22

hectares, if I'm not mistaken. And

6:24

also when I say alternative now, it's

6:26

interesting because that's kind

6:28

of changed. I think the avocados that

6:30

we grow are a big source

6:34

of income for me, for the people

6:36

I work with. And something our

6:38

farm is known for also in India now.

6:40

And so... That's been interesting.

6:42

I've been involved with the farm since

6:46

May 2017. But I would

6:48

say December 2019

6:50

is when I

6:53

quote unquote made the move and I

6:55

made a decision to be like, okay, this is what

6:57

I want to do.

6:58

And what were you doing before? What was the thing that you left

7:00

behind?

7:01

I was in Sydney. I was in Sydney until 27

7:06

between 2013 and 2017. I was doing a bachelor

7:08

of science in biology, working

7:11

a bunch of odd jobs. My brother still

7:13

lives there. So it's been a country

7:15

that's meant a lot to us. It's

7:17

it's where I felt I grew up. I think

7:19

I a lot of the

7:23

Philosophies, I, or how

7:25

I view life was sort of shaped

7:27

by Sydney or Australian ways

7:30

of life, where work life balance

7:32

and fitness and things like that. So,

7:35

yeah,

7:35

what I've seen, I've never been

7:37

to Australia, but what I've been able to observe from Australian

7:40

friends or other, interactions

7:42

with Australians in the world is that there

7:45

is a lot of, like,

7:48

play hard. And work hard

7:51

and travel a lot. Like, yeah, most of the Australians

7:53

that I've met are like incredibly like energetic,

7:57

dynamic people. I get exhausted just watching.

7:59

Yeah, yeah. And work hard, play

8:01

hard is a good description because

8:04

I like the fact that you finish work

8:06

at 5pm and you don't

8:09

check your phone or your email until 9am

8:11

the next day. In India, it's not like

8:13

that. I have friends who... So,

8:15

I do get calls at midnight and I expect

8:17

it to send in an assignment or

8:20

return a phone call or take a Zoom call.

8:22

So, there's a lot more societal pressure in India

8:24

to like be connected and be responsible and responsive.

8:27

Absolutely. It's like and you're seen as

8:30

not a good worker if you don't and

8:32

I don't agree with that. I just, everyone

8:34

needs off time and it's equally

8:37

important to me and the things

8:39

I enjoy. So of those 110

8:42

hectares, how much do you have planted of coffee and

8:44

how much is avocado? So avocados

8:47

and coffee are more or less intercropped.

8:50

But coffee obviously dominates the

8:52

surface area, you could say. You

8:54

could probably say 75

8:58

hectares is coffee. We're on a steep

9:00

incline, so all of it isn't... Some

9:03

of it is roads on some flatter

9:05

bits. We've been able to build our

9:07

home. We have four cabins for

9:09

guests and tourism is also

9:11

a big part of our lives. And so,

9:14

and also we've got a big, my great

9:16

granddad built a massive drying

9:18

yard, which is now a drying facility.

9:21

As of 2021

9:23

2022, actually, because I've built these

9:25

new structures, but yeah, about

9:27

75 hectares of

9:29

coffee. Yeah.

9:32

And what varieties do you have planted?

9:34

So we grow, in terms of species,

9:36

we grow Arabica, Robusta,

9:39

and Liberica. In Arabica, we've

9:41

got a lot of Indian varietals.

9:44

I don't know if we touched upon it in

9:46

May, the last podcast, basically.

9:48

But a big shame

9:51

or what I see as a shame for Indian

9:53

varietals is that we've just

9:55

named them. We've given them numbers,

9:59

selection 5, selection 5B, selection 6,

10:01

selection 9. It's

10:03

a missed opportunity for me because

10:06

we could have given it any name, you know?

10:08

And when I hear names of varietals

10:11

around the world, I'm like, that's a story

10:13

in itself, you know? We've just gone

10:15

by the lab. label. And

10:17

so, absolutely. I think when you have

10:19

a label and you can say Pakamara, exactly,

10:22

or Red Bourbon, like, yeah, it sounds

10:24

more romantic. It sounds more engaging. Yeah.

10:27

And I've thought about the fact, I mean,

10:29

the opportunity of giving

10:32

them my own names, but I feel like maybe

10:34

it's, there's no reference point. It's

10:36

like a question will come with

10:38

it. Like, what is it? I've never heard of it before.

10:40

Or, and I can do that with, cause

10:42

my dad and

10:46

my father, who also runs the And so it was actually a

10:49

product of the lockdown actually, where

10:52

we just had 200 extra saplings

10:54

and we were like, you know what? Let's graph this on this.

10:57

And so we planted them in the three year old

10:59

plants now. And so that's something

11:01

because the farm is called Kerry Huckle.

11:04

Someone suggested I call that this

11:06

grafted varietal Kerry Bicca,

11:09

which I'm going to do. And so but yeah,

11:11

otherwise, it's just fairly

11:13

standard Indian varietals. But in

11:15

my opinion, they're the best suited.

11:17

They're naturalized to our soil. And also

11:19

our shade conditions are super important.

11:22

Like we've got, my dad actually got Obata

11:24

seeds from Brazil about 20

11:26

years ago. And it's a nice exclusive

11:29

block, which we can process

11:32

separately. And we do, but... I

11:34

can tell the plants aren't really

11:37

in top notch shape like

11:39

the Indian varietals which are used

11:41

to it. They're used to our conditions and so

11:44

yeah, it's quite interesting.

11:46

I love that point because I think a lot of times in

11:48

specialty coffee, we, one

11:50

of the things that we borrow from wine Is

11:53

knowing in wine, you can say, Oh, I

11:55

love Pinot Noirs, but I don't like Merlot's

11:57

or you can have, you can kind of identify

12:00

some styles and some varieties that you like.

12:02

And I think a lot of people are trying to do that

12:05

with coffee and saying, I like

12:07

a tourist or I only like bourbon

12:10

and then just going for the variety

12:12

and not like you said, asking the question, is

12:15

this suited for where it is and maybe

12:17

another variety that's less. romantic

12:19

sounding is much more nutrient

12:21

dense. It's much more hearty. It's a better fit for where

12:23

it is, but it's not the one that

12:25

we're looking for. So I think we can definitely go

12:28

wrong.

12:28

Yeah, no, 100%. I can tell you at the

12:30

farming level that you need something

12:33

that's used to your surroundings. Like I can

12:35

plant something in, I don't

12:37

know, up in the mountains and

12:40

it could sound exotic, but biologically

12:43

the seed is not developed. And so you're like, What

12:46

coffee you're going to get out of there, you know,

12:48

and so yeah, context matters,

12:51

I think, I think

12:51

this is a good kind of reminder for

12:53

producers that are hearing about

12:55

the varieties are geishas are, you know, it is that

12:57

are popular and they just want to plant them

13:00

just to have that variety in their farm

13:02

and not thinking about what does this need?

13:05

Do I have? Is this a good match? Because I've tasted

13:07

some very interesting. Very disappointing

13:10

geishas in a lot of different countries. Just because

13:12

it's a geisha doesn't mean it's going to give you.

13:14

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And on that note as well,

13:16

I think it's important because now

13:19

India is going through a specialty boom.

13:22

And I'm seeing a lot of farmers in

13:24

this short period I've been involved turn

13:27

to specialty. But I'm seeing them also

13:30

focus on one varietal. And

13:32

so... 50 70

13:35

hectare farms are being converted

13:37

to. We have this varietal called

13:39

Chandra Giri, which is the

13:41

only one which has an India or actually one of two

13:43

that has an Indian name. It's known as such

13:45

a mall around the world. And farms

13:48

are doing like not monocrop, but 50

13:50

70 acres of just that varietal.

13:52

But you don't understand that. Oh,

13:55

they don't understand that. To say you have

13:57

about a rain. All the plants are going to flower

13:59

at the same time. They're going to fruit at the same time.

14:01

And so they're going to be ruined

14:04

at the same time. If you have a, like

14:06

what we have as a selection

14:08

nine and selection five B. And so

14:10

it's diversity, even in Arabica,

14:13

like you will see if you come in the month of December

14:15

the selection nine is right, but

14:18

you look at the five B's, which are a robust

14:21

hybrid. They're still green. They're still

14:23

four to five weeks away. And so.

14:26

You need that variety

14:29

of offerings, especially

14:31

in a climatically

14:34

unstable world, in my opinion. So can

14:36

you

14:37

tell me more about your biggest challenges

14:40

as a producer? Is it

14:42

pests? Is it climate? Like, what do you find

14:44

that you're struggling the most

14:45

with? Climate and workers,

14:47

for sure. So labor? Yeah, labor.

14:50

That'll be the answer to any, probably any producer in

14:52

the world of coffee.

14:55

With labor, it's interesting

14:57

because I spend a lot

14:59

of time. I'm the kind of person who rolls

15:01

up my sleeves, takes my shoes off. I'm

15:03

in the tank with my workers and things

15:05

like that. And it's interesting

15:07

to understand why

15:10

we're facing issues. And I think

15:12

it's because we're in

15:14

rural India where four and a half hours

15:17

from the big city of Bangalore. And

15:19

from what I gather, When

15:21

I was a kid running around over there the,

15:24

the older old school workers

15:26

who we had, none of their kids

15:28

are there any longer and they kind

15:30

of want to be in what we call

15:32

the big cities or tier two cities. And fair

15:35

enough. I understand that too. Like that's

15:37

a, a life that a lot of people

15:40

strive to want and sort of,

15:43

yeah, they just sort of are

15:45

motivated by or inspired by But

15:48

we're seeing an influx of workers

15:51

from different parts of India that we'd never

15:53

seen before. And so the languages

15:55

on our farm has had to change, which

15:58

is unheard of. We were so, we

16:00

used to speak our language of Kannada, and

16:02

that was it. You speak this, or you don't speak this,

16:05

and that's it. But now we've had to

16:07

adapt, and there's sign language

16:09

involved, and so communication

16:11

is not as easy, but it's... What

16:14

can we do? We need people to come and work for

16:16

us, you know, so and then climate

16:18

is, I could, I could write

16:20

about the climate of our days, but in this,

16:23

yeah, four and a bit years or five

16:25

years almost, yeah, it's changing.

16:28

People don't realize it's not just a catchphrase or a,

16:32

I know people use the word greenwashing, but

16:35

I've seen a change like I've seen in front of me and

16:38

it's, yeah. Rains are getting

16:41

sporadic. They're no longer lengthy

16:43

periods of rain. We get the monsoon, which

16:46

we depend on because we don't irrigate which

16:48

used to be 60 days of all

16:51

day, every day rain. You're just, your clothes are

16:53

damp. Your clothes don't dry. The soil

16:55

is nearly saturated. 60

16:57

days of rain all day.

16:59

Yeah. You barely see the sun. And

17:01

so like that's changed though. We don't

17:03

get those 60 days or if we do, The

17:06

60s spread over 90 days

17:08

and it's more intense rains. It's like you'll

17:10

get storms, which in

17:13

my opinion are incredibly dangerous

17:15

because you're losing topsoil erosion.

17:18

So any, any work that you do is

17:20

kind of not gone down the drain,

17:22

but it's almost compromised. So I'm wondering

17:26

too, if you think that

17:28

this When

17:30

you have a new workforce and you have a new

17:32

language and you're saying communication is

17:34

more challenging or maybe it's something you never had to

17:36

think about, then that must impact

17:39

quality if you're not able to communicate

17:41

in the same ways or even just like new

17:43

training. So is there any way

17:45

that you're combating some

17:47

of that? Yeah. Like you said, we actually,

17:49

I, again, referencing Australia,

17:52

I think my concept of. Quote

17:55

unquote skilled and unskilled labor

17:57

has changed. I don't think people

18:00

who we describe as unskilled that I see

18:02

them as very skilled in different ways, you know? So

18:04

that we've had to teach

18:06

again, which is, which takes time

18:08

because in your day, they're used to being

18:10

like, okay, you do this, you do that, I'll do this.

18:13

But now we've got to be like, you do this and I'll show

18:15

you how. So it's eating into my day

18:17

and it's eating into yours. And so to

18:19

combat that, I think, We

18:22

have to trust, we have to be like, I can

18:24

show you in 15 minutes, but I got to go do

18:26

my stuff. And so that is,

18:30

yeah, again, a compromise on the quality

18:32

of work, but also at the same time

18:35

there's not much we can do. We can't really rely

18:37

on anyone. And my dad

18:40

thinks maybe in 10, 15 years we

18:42

might see people come back. And I see that

18:44

as well. Like like where we live.

18:47

COVID kind of took a toll

18:49

on a lot of people as it did around the

18:51

world, but these big farms

18:53

slash estates the owners

18:55

like ourselves were admittedly

18:58

very privileged, but more,

19:01

more people saw it as like sort of

19:04

holiday homes, you know, they had

19:06

like big bungalows and cooks

19:09

and things like that. And They took

19:11

it as a chance being like, you know what? I'm not going to be

19:13

confined to my apartment in the middle of

19:15

a lockdown. Let's move out there. And

19:18

a lot of them have stayed being like, Hey, I can lead

19:20

this life. I can live here. And

19:22

so I think that's been a nice,

19:24

a little positive angle where

19:27

we're seeing landowners

19:29

and farm owners be a bit more

19:31

involved and sort of engaged

19:34

enough to be like, I want

19:36

the best for my farm.

19:38

So, it's interesting, you're the first person,

19:41

you're the hundredth person producer

19:43

that I've talked to that has said labor is a problem.

19:46

Especially, you know, where I live in Latin America,

19:48

where the United States is very close

19:50

by. So, there's a lot of immigration to

19:52

the United States and the workforce

19:54

is, the farm workforce

19:56

is leaving. And, but you're the

19:58

first person that I've heard be

20:01

more optimistic that you think it's... It's a

20:03

temporary or like a phase where there's

20:05

kind of an exodus, but that people will come back.

20:08

And I think maybe that has to do with, at

20:11

least in, in Latin America, when

20:13

we have the workforce going to the United States,

20:15

that's where I don't see them coming

20:17

back to work on the farm. Like ever. I don't think that's

20:20

kind of a workforce that's going to rebound.

20:23

So what do you think it is about India

20:25

that would be different?

20:27

Like coming back?

20:29

Why do you

20:30

think they would come back? It's kind of

20:32

sad, to be honest. I feel like people are not

20:34

equipped enough for city life. It's

20:36

hard. I think city life is hard. Yeah, it's

20:39

hard. In India,

20:41

we have a caste system.

20:44

We have these deep

20:47

riddled hierarchies,

20:50

which we cannot shake off. It's because

20:52

of our colonial past,

20:54

but it's something that... I still

20:56

see and I'm probably guilty off as

20:58

well, but I see a lot more and I'd

21:00

like to think that I've changed myself, but

21:03

so can

21:03

you, for our audience that's not familiar with the

21:05

cast in India, explain a little bit more how

21:07

many tears there are, what

21:09

would it look like to be from one cast versus another?

21:12

How much impacts your daily life?

21:14

Like what would be

21:15

different? Yeah, I mean, there's,

21:17

there's sort of intricacies that

21:19

I don't even understand. Like, yeah. But

21:22

it's a matter of pride and shame

21:25

and these things where it's

21:27

bigger than religion. It's like,

21:30

who, whose son or

21:32

daughter are you? What

21:34

caste did they belong to? And by caste, I

21:36

mean, it's like a

21:39

social background

21:41

or a social structure. And

21:44

it goes back to the days of... This

21:47

is just obviously very simplistically

21:49

describing it, but we used to

21:51

have the priests on top and

21:53

then the warriors and then the workers

21:56

and then it's like the cleaners

21:58

and then they were kind of like what's

22:00

the word? People who are sort of banished,

22:03

you know, like being like, you don't, you're not

22:05

welcome here. What we've heard is the like untouchables.

22:07

Yeah. Untouchables. Yeah. And so

22:10

And who would those

22:11

people be? So I didn't realize this, that

22:13

this, that the tiers were sort of set up by

22:15

profession. Right. By

22:17

what, what place you had in society. Were

22:20

you a warrior or were you a cleaner? Yeah,

22:22

I think I could be wrong, but

22:24

I feel like it, it has to do with

22:27

like the so called untouchables were

22:30

often physically...

22:33

So disabled. Yeah, yeah. Physically deformed

22:36

in some way and could

22:38

be leprosy. It could be like a skin

22:40

condition and I mean, those

22:42

are things back in the day you probably we

22:46

couldn't cure or we didn't know the cure

22:47

of or and then we blamed people for having

22:50

it's your fault that way. You know, that's

22:52

crazy. But it's the same thing now.

22:54

It's like like I know some

22:56

of my workers, like if I were to I

22:59

don't know, I see someone litter.

23:01

It could be a cigarette, but a packet

23:04

of chips on the ground. Yeah. I

23:06

would be, and I go to pick it up, they'd

23:08

be like, no, no, no, don't do that. We'll do it for you. And

23:10

I'm like, it's fine. I can

23:12

pick it up. But it's so deeply

23:15

ingrained that you're not supposed to pick up your

23:17

contract. You shouldn't be lowered, so to say,

23:19

down to this level. But I

23:21

mean, I don't see the world that

23:23

way. And yeah. But

23:25

so you're saying there are still people that have that view.

23:28

Yeah,

23:28

yeah, yeah, for sure. And it's like

23:31

people don't realize also like. I think when

23:34

I got involved with the farm, there was a tag

23:37

that probably still, I'd

23:39

like to think that I've changed in a way,

23:41

but there was, I remember my friends,

23:43

like my close friends would say, estate

23:45

boy, and the estate boy is a, is a

23:47

phrase where you are

23:49

assumed to have big amounts

23:51

of land, but you finish work at 4pm,

23:54

and you, first thing you do is pour yourself

23:56

a glass of whiskey, and that's, that's

23:59

the notion, you know? It's like. You're

24:01

just yelling at your workers, you're getting cooked

24:03

for, you're getting drunk at night. And

24:05

so, that's the other end of the spectrum,

24:08

where it's like, Okay, we have

24:11

these so called workers

24:13

and people who are lesser than us, so

24:15

to say, but on this end as

24:17

well, there's sort of notions

24:20

and sort of, yeah, categories that you're

24:23

placed into, which I

24:25

think are slowly dissolving, in a

24:27

way.

24:29

I think the important key is that

24:31

they are slowly dissolving, but

24:34

they're still very apparent

24:36

in a lot of producing countries. And I think

24:38

that the reason I like bringing

24:40

this up, or I think it's important to bring

24:42

it up, is that a lot of times buyers

24:44

in you know, in the United States

24:47

where that class is not

24:49

as obvious where a lot of the United States

24:51

is very much about kind of mixing and

24:54

being at least where I was from, California, not

24:56

saying all of the United States, but I think

24:59

there are parts of the United States where it's

25:03

Not fundamental to our culture

25:05

to think about these tears in classes,

25:07

and it's very much about upward

25:10

mobility and pulling yourself up by your bootstraps

25:12

and kind of coming. It's a country

25:14

of immigrants. Yeah, being able

25:16

to change their lives. I

25:18

think we come from these consumer

25:21

cultures and then we maybe visit producing

25:23

countries or we're doing business and we're

25:25

buying and we still apply

25:28

kind of our perspective and we apply

25:30

like our rules to

25:32

where we're visiting and not realizing

25:35

that things where we're visiting are incredibly

25:37

different and that the power dynamics are

25:39

incredibly different. And so I think that so many

25:42

times we don't spend

25:44

them. Spend the time to kind of get to know the culture

25:46

that we're trading with. I think coffee has a lot

25:48

of opportunities for,

25:51

you know, misunderstandings and bad communication

25:53

and accidentally offending people.

25:56

I think we could be a little bit more conscious

25:58

of the culture that we're going into.

26:00

For sure. Yeah. And I think it, it

26:03

trickles down into the

26:06

buyer seller dynamic. It trickles

26:08

down into origin visits.

26:11

It trickles down into Yeah,

26:13

just a lot of interactions where it's

26:16

easy to forget that you're visiting

26:18

a place which is older

26:21

than you and, and

26:23

it's it's got a certain structure

26:25

in place, but it's not that you're

26:27

oblivious. I mean, you could be oblivious, but

26:30

also at the same time, you're, I

26:32

feel like more effort can be made to

26:34

contextualize it being like, Hey, can

26:37

I ask you a question? No. Can

26:39

I read up about this before coming there? And

26:41

so I've been witnessing

26:43

a lot of that in the last two years where

26:46

I feel like people should.

26:48

Like you go on holiday, you read up about the place you're

26:50

visiting, you know, it's the same thing. You're visiting

26:53

someone's home or farm. I think it's

26:55

important to understand the history of it. Yeah.

26:58

To be a good guest.

26:59

Yeah, exactly. In a new place. Yeah. Yeah. And

27:01

I think, you know, it kind of depends on your culture. Like

27:04

Do you expect yourself to be a good guest

27:06

or do you expect the other party to be a good

27:08

host? You know, and I think that

27:11

depending on your culture, you have different views,

27:13

but I hope that regardless

27:15

of our culture as coffee people, we can

27:17

think about let's be good guests in the places

27:20

that we're visiting. Can

27:22

you tell me a little bit more about how much

27:24

of your production is domestic? How much

27:27

are you exporting and how you see those two markets

27:29

as different? Yeah.

27:32

It's kind of crazy to look back at

27:34

because my

27:36

first harvest in India

27:39

between on average November

27:41

and Feb. So we, I

27:44

started in November

27:46

2019 was my first specialty

27:49

harvest. You could say at that

27:51

point, it was funny because I finished

27:53

that season and it was

27:55

the first wave of covid when I was

27:57

planning to send samples out. And so.

28:00

I literally been thrown into the

28:02

deep end with coffee and production

28:05

and processing and getting the coffee

28:07

out there. And so 2020,

28:09

2021 and 2022,

28:12

in a sense I was almost

28:14

a hundred percent domestic. So

28:16

apart from a few

28:18

F rates of nano lots, which

28:21

I sent out to roses and different

28:23

like Australia, for example, and one Sweden

28:25

but insignificant that probably accounts

28:28

for one percent, but now

28:30

the season that just went by a good

28:33

55% of my production was

28:36

exported and that went to North America.

28:38

And that's something I see as

28:41

sustainable growth. It's something that I need

28:44

because India is a growing.

28:46

Producing and it's just a big

28:48

industry. The consuming market

28:50

is becoming more informed.

28:53

They know what a good cup of coffee is.

28:55

Because traditionally India drinks more tea

28:58

than coffee.

28:59

Overall, probably yes. But I would

29:01

say that it depends where you

29:03

go. Like in the south, we still drink

29:05

coffee a lot. Like, like by

29:07

the side of the road for very cheap,

29:10

you get a small cup of coffee and it's... It's

29:12

what you eat with breakfast and with your afternoon

29:14

snack. But, it's never been

29:18

quality focused. It's never been quality

29:20

driven. That's changed. Of course, I

29:22

think people are more demanding

29:24

in a right way. But I do

29:26

think, or I have been

29:28

thinking for a while now. And the reason I exported

29:32

my first large shipments was

29:34

In an economic sense, the bubble

29:36

is going to burst. We have a lot of produce,

29:38

we've always had a lot of producers. Now the producers

29:40

are turning the specialty. I

29:43

feel like there's not enough wiggle room for the

29:45

roasters to increase their

29:47

roasted beans prices. And so, it's

29:50

a struggle to find because the

29:52

cost of production is going up. It's, my inputs

29:54

are going up on the daily, whether it's pruning

29:58

or we have to get climbers to...

30:00

What we call shade lopping are trees overhead

30:03

shade trees. And so everything's

30:05

got the price. I remember during

30:07

the Russia Ukraine crisis

30:10

a lot of fertilizer prices

30:12

went up and it's things you can't control. It's

30:14

like you suddenly are paying double the next

30:16

morning for something which wasn't

30:19

the price, you know? and there's only

30:21

so much you can say, Hey, I'm sorry. I've got to increase

30:23

it by. a dollar this year. But

30:26

I also get that the roasters can't keep

30:29

having their prices increase. So that's

30:31

why you have to turn to new markets. You have to turn

30:33

to in my opinion, like minded

30:36

buyers around the world.

30:39

So you think there's a much lower

30:41

ceiling to what an Indian specialty

30:43

consumer will pay? And so you're

30:47

looking for other markets?

30:48

Yes. Overall. Yes. I think

30:50

Like I wouldn't pay a lot to be honest. If

30:52

I walk into a shop, I'm not going to pay. That's

30:55

like, I mean, that's just me, of course, but like and

30:57

it's fair enough. You, you are getting a very,

31:00

not a limited, but your paycheck

31:02

or your wages shouldn't be

31:05

the large amount of it or the lion's share

31:07

of it. Shouldn't be food and

31:09

beverages should be fairly affordable

31:12

for the lay person. But yeah,

31:14

there's an upper limit. So what's the most you paid for

31:16

a cup of coffee? In India?

31:18

Or like... In your life? In

31:21

Australia I paid... I

31:23

think it was 15 for a cup.

31:26

15 for one cup? Yeah, and that was a

31:28

one off, I wouldn't do that often.

31:30

And so what was, was there something special

31:32

about that cup? Or is that what things cost in

31:34

Australia? Because I've been surprised at some of the prices

31:36

of like a beer, or like a pint,

31:38

or... Yeah, no, I think that was... It's

31:40

a top lot. no, overall, you could

31:42

probably say a filter

31:45

coffee, a pour over would be five

31:47

to 6 upwards and I'm

31:49

at a position where I'm like, I'm

31:52

not going to question that. Like, hi, I'm a producer.

31:55

I know, I mean, I don't know the,

31:57

obviously the deals that have been done, but like,

31:59

there's a reason it's priced so high and

32:01

I'm hoping it's the right reasons,

32:04

but Yeah, you can't really argue with someone's

32:06

menu or something like that, in my opinion, at least.

32:10

When I was living in San Francisco, I would say

32:12

like an average cup of coffee

32:14

was maybe like a specialty coffee, maybe

32:16

4. And I remember going

32:18

to Blue Bottle for the Yemen

32:21

coffee for 17 for a cup of

32:23

coffee. And it was really good and it was really

32:25

beautiful. But like you said, I'm the kind

32:27

of person that that's a one off for me. That's not

32:30

my daily. Or even

32:32

weekly. Yeah, type of coffee.

32:35

So I think you're right. I think that there is for

32:37

most of us, even being in coffee, knowing

32:39

how much work it costs to produce it. Even

32:42

we have a resistance going

32:44

up there. Whereas like, I've definitely been

32:46

in San Francisco and 17 for a cocktail.

32:49

It's like,

32:49

oh yeah,

32:52

it's funny how it just, yeah, we have

32:54

different

32:54

anchors. So I think part

32:56

of it, maybe there's some room for us to like, reshift

32:59

our, our perceptions and like what

33:01

we're willing to pay for. But there's some

33:03

that are just so

33:04

deep. Yeah. I found it interesting in

33:06

Bandung this week there was an Indonesian

33:08

coffee. I took a photo off on

33:11

the back of it. It had the prices

33:13

of cherry, the prices of.

33:16

All of that. I'll show you a photo and obviously

33:18

it wasn't in English, but some, I think

33:20

one of the guys that told me about it and I was like, I

33:23

mean, that transparency

33:26

tells you why something could cost 15. You

33:29

know, it's like maybe it was a 20

33:31

kilo lot, which I roasted and I got

33:34

17 kilos out of, out of which I cupped

33:36

and maybe that helps. But of course

33:38

you don't want to lay all

33:40

your cards on the table as a retailer

33:44

or a roaster. So. But, or

33:46

anyone for that matter as a producer as well,

33:48

but yeah, maybe transparency could help that.

33:51

I think

33:51

that is really interesting. I think it could also be

33:54

a real eye opener sometimes if you look at,

33:56

if you actually had to break it down and maybe the,

33:59

the paper cup, the packaging would be more expensive

34:02

than the cherries that are actually in the cup. Yeah, exactly.

34:04

There's some, that would happen

34:06

more often than people would realize.

34:08

Yeah. Yeah. And a little, I don't know, like a

34:10

little pamphlet that comes with it and things like

34:12

that. It's just adding layers to it.

34:14

Right. They paid maybe 10 cents for the coffee

34:16

and 15 cents to print the pictures

34:18

of the farm. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. To sell it.

34:20

Yeah. So as

34:22

you've had to step out

34:25

of India, look for new markets, get new customers,

34:28

how, how did you even start? What was that process?

34:30

How did you even go from making

34:33

these relationships with roasters in different countries?

34:35

I'm lucky that. Again, referencing

34:38

Australia. My brother still lives there. He's an

34:40

Aussie citizen now. And so on

34:44

the weekends, he's at a new cafe

34:46

with his partner. And so like they spend

34:48

a lot of time just drinking good coffees. And

34:51

he's a

34:53

lot more, I would say,

34:55

like, socially a lot better

34:58

than me being like, Hey, this is what I'm a bit

35:00

like, I hold back a bit, but like he's

35:02

really good at being like, Hey, this is what my family does.

35:04

And even if he has a natural salesperson,

35:07

yeah, yeah, he's really good at it. And so it's

35:09

like just the conversation started

35:11

being like, I really liked your coffee. And

35:13

oftentimes in Australia, especially the smaller

35:15

places, if you go often enough, they

35:18

take notice and they'll be like, they'll ask you about

35:20

the coffee about yourself. A

35:22

fair few roasters I've met. have

35:24

been through my brother and so very personal

35:27

relationships, which, in my

35:29

opinion, is really important.

35:31

You need a sense of accountability,

35:34

especially if you're a

35:36

roaster and you're taking a gamble on.

35:39

Okay, now India is kind of not making waves

35:41

in this kind of people are talking about

35:43

it in certain parts of the world in

35:45

coffee. But there's still a bit,

35:47

there's some question marks being like. I'm

35:50

like, am I going to get the quality that I

35:52

am expecting or the

35:54

whole, the old story of the pre

35:56

shipment sample, not matching the arrival

35:58

sample or

36:01

there's a trust issue for sure with a newer

36:03

origin to them

36:04

for sure. And I think just having my brother

36:06

that helps a lot being, they're like, okay, I can

36:08

call him. Yeah. Yeah. And so

36:11

that's great. You know, but I mean, also

36:13

you can't always do that. I realized that you

36:15

need to have a buyer who. Trust

36:18

you who you trust and is going to communicate

36:21

what you communicate to

36:23

their potential clients. And so

36:26

that's the bigger game, I think, which

36:28

I'm leaning towards, but I

36:31

love to have a relationship with the roaster.

36:33

I think that's super important. And yeah,

36:36

that's how it started.

36:37

So what was the role or what motivated you

36:39

to go to Expo? to SCA or

36:42

have you

36:43

been to World of Coffee? Not World of Coffee, but MICE

36:45

and London Coffee Festival so far

36:48

in the last year

36:50

and a bit. Yeah, I just wanted to sort

36:52

of put myself out there,

36:54

put my farm out there, see

36:56

where we stood. But it's

36:58

funny because being at MICE and MICE

37:01

last year, 2022, made its comeback

37:04

after I think that was the

37:06

first one since 2019 because of COVID.

37:08

And so it was massive. It was a really big expo.

37:11

And even being there, my

37:13

perception or my sort of angle

37:16

changed in the, where I was like, okay, I'm going

37:18

to hand out samples. I had green bean samples

37:21

and my business card and some

37:23

roasted samples as well. And that

37:25

was day one and day two, super enthusiastic

37:27

about meeting people and making

37:30

connections. But I think

37:32

at the end of day two, I realized that, you

37:34

know what? I'm just going to observe,

37:36

like, I'm going to go for all the cuppings that

37:39

are scheduled. I'm going to talk to people.

37:41

I'm going to be like, what do you

37:43

think of this? And what, where are the

37:45

pallets at? What are you drinking? What

37:47

are your offerings on your menu in your, in

37:50

your cafe? That was really helpful

37:52

because I remember my dad's

37:54

friend, just giving this analogy

37:56

of he, he kind of pushed us to go for expos.

37:59

He's like, Just go see what's out there and

38:02

he was like, it's like a don't

38:04

feel bad in your first expo. It's

38:06

like being a salesman or a

38:08

salesperson and getting the door slammed

38:11

in your face. And I

38:13

think that's a really good analogy where you're shot down

38:15

sometimes and not given a chance.

38:17

But there are definitely people who

38:20

you instantly are. I have instantly

38:22

connected with and been like, you know what?

38:24

I'd love to get my coffee to you. And obviously

38:26

involves. A lot of steps,

38:29

but a good first interaction.

38:32

And how did

38:33

you feel as a person of color in that space?

38:36

It's hard. It's hard. I know,

38:39

I think this stems into

38:41

just my, my

38:44

experiences of living in the

38:46

western country and visiting western

38:48

countries and being a brown person

38:51

just over there. Who is in

38:53

a minority, you know, and so

38:55

I have to say that I think at both

38:58

LCF, London Coffee Festival, and

39:01

the Melbourne Expo, I,

39:03

maybe people feel differently, but it's like,

39:06

what are you doing here? Is the sort of...

39:08

Do you

39:08

feel out of place? Yeah, yeah,

39:10

the question running through their heads is what are you

39:12

doing here? And I'm like, I grow this.

39:15

I have been growing coffee. Since

39:17

way before your roastery was even founded

39:19

and maybe not me, but my family and

39:22

so, it's like I know you had Mark on

39:24

and I really resonated with a lot of things

39:26

that he said, because you're

39:29

expected to not

39:31

interact and expected to

39:34

be confined to certain

39:36

parts of the value chain, but

39:38

also at the same time It's an importer's

39:41

world. That's, that, that was my main

39:43

takeaway from mice was this

39:45

is an importer's world. And it's kind

39:47

of sad in a way, to be honest, but

39:49

that's the, the game is the game. And so you've got to play

39:51

it. And so, I don't know, I feel like it's

39:54

even within the structures, like

39:57

I know there was Colombians and Brazilians

40:00

who I met and had amazing conversations

40:02

with them, but just being an Indian

40:04

coffee producer is even. Is

40:06

like level or

40:08

layer two to this and

40:10

so it's like you got to fight

40:12

the Preconceived notions,

40:15

but then also you got to fight the hey

40:18

this is My coffee and

40:20

this is how it is. And so yeah, there's

40:23

obstacles every step of the way

40:25

I struggle when a lot of producers,

40:28

you know, they asked me if I

40:30

think if I would recommend they go to

40:32

an expo or if they, you know, they think it's worth it if they've

40:34

never gone before and it can

40:36

be a, it is a big investment

40:38

to get your flights, to get your hotel,

40:40

to spend money, to like transfer around. So

40:42

it is a really important decision for a lot

40:44

of producers to even attempt.

40:47

And I think that it's helpful to hear

40:49

that it's, it's not for

40:51

the faint of heart. It's not for the thin skinned

40:53

because you will get a lot of doors slammed in your face.

40:56

I think that the other, my experience

40:58

going to expose is that. People,

41:01

most of the people go to see people they

41:03

already know. There's very few people

41:06

with an open mindset of like, I can't wait

41:08

to meet a hundred new people. They're sort of going

41:10

to nurture relationships

41:13

that already exist. So maybe they've been

41:15

in contact for a long time, and

41:17

they've never met in person, and they want, so there's

41:19

still new relationships, but that's not

41:22

most people's, like, majority

41:24

of, of what they're trying to accomplish.

41:26

So I think that, I still recommend

41:29

for producers, like if you have the means

41:31

and you have the time, I think that it can

41:33

be a very fruitful,

41:35

like you can make connections and relationships,

41:38

but to have that, that context

41:40

in mind of like, you know,

41:43

be ready to put

41:45

on your thick skin and just kind of like

41:47

go out there and, and it's a numbers game, like you said,

41:49

you're going to talk to a lot of people and a lot of things

41:51

aren't going to, for sure,

41:53

because you could, there's a risk of coming away.

41:55

Yeah. feeling worse than when you went, you

41:58

know, before you went. And so I

42:00

think that's horrible to be like, I've

42:02

put

42:03

in thousands of dollars just to feel bad about myself. And oftentimes I think about the samples as well. Like,

42:05

are they even roasting

42:05

the sample that they get, which is probably one out of a hundred

42:13

roast green bean sample. And

42:15

so one thing I have to say to producers is

42:18

maybe give yourself

42:21

two days before and two days after, if

42:23

you make a connection with a person. Meet

42:25

them away from the expo at the expo.

42:27

You're just I mean, you can't blame them. It's just you're

42:29

in this big hall. Yeah. It's like a fire

42:31

hose of information, energy,

42:34

and

42:34

activity. Yeah. And so even if you want to make an

42:36

effort, unfortunately, sometimes you

42:39

don't have the energy because you have to do it for 4 days

42:41

and repeat yourself and

42:43

have the same conversations and yeah,

42:45

all of this and it's transactional. And

42:48

so I like that. I used to go like mice,

42:50

especially my brother lives there. So I went a

42:52

week before. But I was like, I would

42:54

write to people being like, Hey, I'm here from

42:56

this time to this time. I'll see you at the

42:58

expo, but let me know if and

43:01

when you have time. And then if

43:03

you're meeting someone in familiar

43:05

surroundings, like the roastery or the

43:07

cafe, it's a lot better. You

43:09

may, it's not, it's not to say that you'll find

43:12

a buyer, but you will at least have a more

43:14

meaningful relationship than being

43:17

like someone in line at a booth.

43:19

You know? Yeah. Absolutely.

43:21

So I was going to ask if you,

43:24

at Expo, you felt a little bit... Out

43:26

of place and you and not just felt,

43:28

but people were giving you that vibe of like, what are you doing

43:31

here? Yeah, did you feel like some of that came

43:33

from the sense of well, you shouldn't be here.

43:35

You should be on your farm You should be there

43:38

working on the coffee. What are you doing?

43:40

Yeah, I get that a lot. It's like also

43:43

me as a person I have other

43:46

goals and dreams in my life apart from

43:48

coffee and So it's

43:50

like hey, why

43:52

are you here? Oh like hey You

43:55

should be

43:56

coffee all the

43:57

time. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Or like this is

43:59

an expo which is dominated by

44:01

espresso machine suppliers and I'm like

44:04

that's a part of it and that's the consumer

44:07

facing side of it but it's not

44:09

to say my work is harder than yours

44:11

or I don't want to get into that because it all

44:13

matters at the end of the day but

44:16

yeah, we've been doing this for so long and I

44:18

see, I get that question a lot when I

44:20

tell people about what I do otherwise and even

44:23

being in Jakarta right now

44:25

might surprise some people, you know, it's like, oh,

44:27

you leave the farm or you leave your country.

44:30

And I'm like, yeah, I do. And I think

44:32

the notion of a young, not

44:34

just young, maybe like older

44:36

producers as well, like we

44:39

want to lead normal lives and we want

44:41

to lead lives which involve holidays

44:44

and involve expanding our horizons.

44:47

And how important do you feel that the travel

44:49

has been for you in terms of, you

44:52

know, getting new ideas or

44:54

getting even just rest?

44:57

Huge. Yeah, like, I

44:59

think you just get so caught up. I think India

45:02

is, again, nascent market,

45:05

nascent industry. But like every

45:07

time I step out, I'm like, wow, these people

45:10

around the world love coffee. And so, like, I

45:13

would be so confined to the

45:15

thought process of, okay,

45:17

I need to supply to this roaster or I

45:19

need to work with this person and this micro

45:23

lot needs to be portrayed this way.

45:25

And it's just experience.

45:27

I think just been doing this for a while. That's helped

45:29

me get here where I'm like,

45:32

it's okay. If you don't work with someone

45:35

again, or you don't work with a certain coffee

45:37

with someone again, and there

45:39

will be someone out there who loves

45:42

your coffee. And you just got to find that person

45:44

again. It might be a challenge to get

45:47

the coffee to them. But that's

45:49

my biggest takeaway that if

45:51

it's a so called

45:54

over process, funky coffee that

45:57

someone your old buyers or your

45:59

existing buyers might not like, I

46:01

can guarantee that someone out there will like it.

46:04

And you just have to get it to them and negotiate

46:06

a price. But that's been really

46:08

nice because It

46:12

pushes me as a producer to maintain

46:14

a standard, but give me enough freedom

46:18

to play around with the processing.

46:21

So what are your, as a producer,

46:23

what are your future goals? What do you want to accomplish?

46:25

What is something that you've been trying to, like,

46:27

what direction do you want to head in?

46:30

It's funny because I spent these

46:32

few years thinking

46:34

that. I've got a lot of catching up

46:37

to do in terms of research, in terms

46:39

of information,

46:41

and I don't deny that there is this

46:43

so much even sitting at the FTC,

46:46

I came away with more questions and

46:48

in a good way because I'm like, I

46:51

thought I knew but I had no idea, you know,

46:53

and so it's like, I'm keen to

46:56

how I put it learn and apply. And

46:58

so I think my goals. And

47:02

we were actually a

47:04

cup of coffee one morning and I brewed

47:06

one of my wash coffees and where I'm

47:08

at in my producing

47:10

and processing journey, I guess,

47:13

is wash coffees. I

47:15

really love wash coffees and I

47:17

see that as the next step or

47:19

the next, the next sort of

47:22

in demand or highly

47:24

consumed process in

47:26

the In the specialty. Well, I know it already

47:28

is and people are getting over the the funk.

47:31

But I think I'd like to sort of pioneer

47:35

India and Indian specialty

47:37

as being quality focused.

47:40

I think we do have huge

47:43

land holdings and do have huge farms,

47:46

which are comparable to

47:48

a few parts of the world. But So unique

47:50

to us. I think we're so dependent on, past

47:53

sort of experiences and past reputations.

47:55

You could say that we need to

47:57

break them. And I think I'd like to spearhead

48:00

that and be like, we can be

48:02

a powerhouse of an origin because

48:04

we have the coffee. We have the volume. It's

48:07

just not convert that focus

48:09

on it. Be specific. And I

48:11

think Yeah, that's I know it's vague

48:13

and broad, but I think that's what I, that's what I foresee

48:16

being like, it's not that

48:18

it has to be me personally,

48:20

but I feel like there's a few, a group of

48:22

us who could be like, this is

48:24

modern day Indian specialty coffee.

48:27

And I think I'd like for my farm to be

48:29

at the forefront of it.

48:31

I think something really important that you bring up is

48:34

in specialty coffee. It's a

48:37

young industry. and

48:40

I think so many newcomers

48:42

to the industry don't realize how

48:44

young it is and think very much like you

48:46

that there's all this information and

48:49

I just haven't learned it yet, or I haven't

48:51

had access to it yet. And the reality

48:53

for most, most of those

48:55

topics is, well, we haven't researched it yet to

48:57

begin with. It's not that all of this information

48:59

exists and is written and you just have to like sit down

49:01

and read it all. Yeah. It's that. And I think that coffee

49:04

really hasn't been given the scientific

49:06

space to study a lot of these

49:08

things. So a lot of questions that come up

49:10

in the FTC, how do the flavors

49:12

actually get in? We haven't done

49:14

that research. It's not that you don't know it.

49:16

It's that no one's done

49:17

it. Yeah, yeah. And I think maybe

49:19

that's I mean, I've been thinking about this as well and

49:21

about like how how

49:24

do we not have an encyclopedia

49:26

or a like a Bible so to say

49:28

about processing, but and I wonder

49:30

if it is because Coffee

49:33

is grown in so called poor countries.

49:36

It's not like wine, which has grown in France and Australia

49:38

and anywhere else around the world and where

49:41

the consumers are a lot

49:44

geographically closer to

49:46

the producing side of things here. It's obviously

49:48

being shipped from a different part of the world.

49:50

And I feel like that has a huge, that,

49:53

that is a huge reason for it that it's grown

49:55

in so called third world countries.

49:58

And that's why only now

50:00

are we looking at this. Boom

50:02

of research and information

50:04

being put out there. I, I

50:06

completely agree and I think that it's, you

50:09

know, kind of the elephant in the room. Like, no, we don't want

50:11

to admit that coffee has been ignored

50:14

or forgotten because it's in developing

50:16

countries. I think that has to

50:18

partially to do with why the

50:21

developed nations of first world countries haven't.

50:24

Bothered or cared to do that research

50:26

and why those countries themselves

50:29

haven't done it like those universities

50:31

or that those resources or that equipment like

50:33

the amount of infrastructure that

50:35

it takes to study some of these things are millions

50:38

and millions of dollars for the equipment.

50:40

And so it's not like, you

50:42

know, it's not like that's just widely available.

50:45

Yeah, yeah. And what we were just talking

50:47

about reminded me of an interaction I had

50:49

in London where I had a copying.

50:53

Away from, the coffee festival

50:55

with the roaster. I met to I won't name

50:57

names, but through a common friend of mine

50:59

or an acquaintance. And we got my

51:01

coffees, they enjoyed

51:03

my coffee. we were sitting and chatting,

51:06

before I was going to hop on the bus. And

51:09

I, I still strongly believe

51:11

that in 20 to 30 years, There's

51:14

a huge possibility of Arabica

51:16

as a species not existing.

51:19

And so I said this, I was like,

51:21

Hey, like we're talking about robust as an Arabica

51:23

and I was like, I don't know, my gut

51:25

tells me that in 20 years it's

51:28

touch or go, you know, it could be, it

51:30

could swing either way. And right now I'm not confident.

51:33

So I'd rather not be naive. And I said this, I said,

51:36

20 years from now, we might, we might not be talking

51:38

about these coffees. And he looks at me

51:40

dead in the eyes and he says. Nah,

51:42

that's not happening. And I was

51:45

like, what do you mean? I

51:47

was like, he's like, nah, Arabica

51:49

is not going to go extinct. And

51:51

in my head, I was like, you

51:54

live in Shoreditch, you live in

51:56

London, I live on a farm,

51:58

and I grow these plants, and

52:00

I see these plants every single day, and

52:02

you're telling me that, okay, you

52:04

may visit a farm, or a couple of farms

52:07

for two weeks in a year.

52:09

And you know more than me about my plants

52:11

or plants anywhere in the world. That's,

52:14

that I didn't, I, I've gotten to a point where

52:16

I just smile. I shook his hand. I

52:18

said, thank you for your time. It was nice to meet you.

52:20

I'm done. But that's it. This dynamic

52:23

of we know better. Oh,

52:26

you don't know what you're talking about because

52:29

you're from here. And that's

52:31

crazy to me.

52:32

It's wild too. And I think that, you

52:34

know, that's, that's I've heard

52:37

similar stories like that of producers speaking

52:39

out and not even speaking out. You're just like, this is my

52:42

observation. These are the facts around me. We

52:44

used to have 60 days of rain every

52:46

single day and now we don't, right?

52:48

That's not an opinion. You're just sharing what's actually

52:50

happening. And so many people

52:53

in other parts of the chain just not

52:55

believing or not wanting

52:57

to acknowledge that. And I've, I've heard

52:59

that from, you know, other, other

53:02

sources. And I think that there's

53:04

also this big, gap

53:06

between the

53:09

potentially the research side, maybe

53:11

giving him the benefit of the doubt and not being

53:13

just a completely lost person.

53:16

Maybe he's read some research about new varieties

53:18

and maybe there is all

53:20

of this, a chatter

53:23

about, you know, how we're going to save these

53:25

things and sure there's opportunities

53:27

to create new plants and there's opportunities

53:30

to create. More disease

53:32

resistant or more robust varieties, but

53:35

taking something from an experiment and the lab

53:37

scale and actually translating it into

53:39

the farm, I think that a lot of people have

53:41

a little too much confidence in what science

53:44

is doing and how difficult it is to implement

53:46

something like that on a large scale in

53:49

real life across so many different

53:51

conditions. So I think part of it is

53:53

like, I know one of the themes

53:55

that we've kind of kept coming back to is being a

53:57

little bit more humble about what we don't

53:59

know. Yeah. And just

54:01

saying, like, there's a lot of

54:04

unknowns. Yeah, yeah. No, and I

54:06

think like, you, you hit the nail on the head.

54:08

It's so much of it is theoretical.

54:11

It's just on paper. We, we don't know.

54:13

And something you brought up with the FTC

54:15

that are in the FTC that I've been thinking about

54:17

is the, the

54:19

forecast or the predictions. It's not

54:22

the fact that it's a five year blip

54:24

or, you know, it's, this is the future.

54:26

It's only going to get worse. And so. So I

54:28

think maybe, or this is my take

54:31

on it, a thought process is

54:34

that if you hear this climate change

54:36

and lack of rains or too much rains

54:38

from a producer, it,

54:40

it creates this dynamic of, we need

54:42

more money. And I think that's why there's a bit of resistance

54:45

being like, are you saying this

54:47

so you can get paid more? But we're

54:50

not, we're saying this because it's

54:52

not going to exist. Yeah, exactly. You know? And

54:54

so it's, tough. I think that's why I'm very

54:56

grateful for the farm that we have, which

54:59

is biodiverse, but it might

55:01

sound crazy, but I'm kind

55:03

of bracing myself for a potential

55:05

future, maybe 30,

55:08

40 years where it could be

55:11

a forest. It could just be, I'm

55:13

looking at it as land now and no longer

55:16

a coffee farm because you

55:18

don't know. It's not just about all

55:21

eggs in one basket, but it's about. it's

55:23

your people is a community of you're

55:25

looking after and who depend on you. And so

55:28

that's why ecotourism and

55:30

for me, avocados and things like that, I think

55:33

are going to be more and more important.

55:36

I think that this is something that I really want

55:38

people to hear as well, that we

55:41

in the specialty kind of community

55:43

talk a lot about quality and improving quality

55:45

and flavors and innovation. And

55:48

I just feel like that's kind of a distraction

55:50

and missing the point. Like. I

55:52

don't think it should be a quality thing. It's like

55:54

coffee is just going to disappear and

55:57

even not just from the climate

55:59

pressures or the lack of investment

56:01

or lack of money and people abandoning

56:03

their farms. So there's that there's we're

56:06

not going to be able to grow coffee here because the climate is

56:08

not going to allow it. And then, okay, there's not

56:10

enough money. So across Latin America, so

56:12

many producers are just abandoning their farms.

56:15

So they can't afford to continue

56:17

farming. And then there's another part,

56:19

other producers like yourself or even Mark. From

56:21

Finka Rosenheim in Peru was saying

56:23

he's growing less and less coffee. He's planting

56:26

other things. He's planting more forest He's

56:28

choosing to grow less coffee. And

56:30

I think that is also another Avenue

56:33

that producers are going to be You

56:35

know facing and so I think our pool of

56:38

coffee is gonna get smaller and so it's

56:40

not to be so like negative

56:42

or like alarmist, but I think

56:45

this is Something that we don't want to look

56:47

at. Yeah. And I think, I'm just hearing it

56:49

from so many producers in different countries, at

56:51

different scales, in different situations. The

56:53

future is not more coffee. Yeah.

56:55

The future is less coffee because

56:58

you're diversifying, because you're thinking about the environment.

57:00

Or you just can't. Yeah.

57:01

Right? No, and I, and I don't doubt that there

57:04

will be, maybe not varietals,

57:06

but species which are

57:08

more resilient. That might be away

57:11

from the Arabica and

57:14

Robusta, sort of. Common

57:16

species are commonly drunk cups that

57:18

we have that could be something

57:20

and but just think

57:22

about that. You need that. You need to plant

57:24

those plants. Now, if you're looking at something

57:28

20 years from now, because yes, it takes

57:30

a few years to sort of naturalized,

57:33

but also at the same time, you need

57:35

a few generations in there to

57:37

produce top quality coffee

57:39

and drought resistant

57:42

plants or flood resistant plants.

57:44

And so yeah, we all just need

57:46

a plan now. I think that's the the takeaway

57:48

is that don't wait till it's too

57:51

late.

57:51

Yeah, I think that's another thing a lot of people

57:53

don't realize is if you think about planting

57:56

a coffee plant, maybe you could get a crop

57:58

in three years. But when you're talking

58:00

about new varieties that takes 15

58:02

20 correct. Like actually start

58:05

that cycle. So it's not just like, you

58:07

know, these things Are going to take a lot

58:09

longer to figure out and I think that

58:11

we kind of aren't

58:13

being as, as honest or as

58:15

cautious or even as humble as

58:18

we are about facing the future. I

58:20

think we're a little too confident of like, we'll figure

58:22

it out. And I'm like, I'm, I'm just not seeing,

58:24

yeah,

58:26

yeah. And I think that's why I was seeing,

58:28

the production and the growing and

58:30

then the production of coffee outside.

58:32

What we call the beanbelt, the top between the tropics

58:34

and I feel like we need,

58:37

I think that is the future to be honest like

58:39

you get a little more wiggle

58:42

room in temperate areas as

58:44

opposed to the sort of, yeah, the tropics where

58:47

we are and so it's not

58:49

to say that you can grow coffee

58:52

well outside, let's say in my context,

58:55

Bangalore City, but if

58:57

it's growing there and if it's less variable.

59:00

You never know. Maybe in 20 years that could

59:02

be an area

59:04

which is sort of a new origin. And

59:06

so yeah, experiments are super

59:08

important. And that's why I like visiting

59:11

farms, which are unorthodox, so to

59:13

say, or like sort of not fitting

59:16

to these norms or sort of expectations

59:19

of the past. And so, yeah,

59:21

I think that's where we're at.

59:23

Can you share a little bit about what maybe

59:25

some of the ideas you had about

59:27

processing before you came to FTC and

59:29

if there was anything, any information that kind

59:31

of changed your mind or maybe adjusted

59:33

the way that you're going to process?

59:35

I think overall, to be honest, it gave me a lot

59:37

of confidence to know that what

59:40

I've been doing is

59:43

on the right track. I think it was just

59:45

like, maybe in certain

59:47

ways. I liked how you put

59:49

across, like for me, I

59:51

risk being the

59:53

good washed coffee guy. And I

59:56

don't want to be known as the good washed coffee

59:58

guy. I want to be known as a sort

1:00:01

of diverse and

1:00:03

sort of flexible processor

1:00:05

of my coffees. And right now

1:00:07

it's washed coffees, but that's why whether

1:00:10

it's Koji or my Liberica or

1:00:12

extended formants of. I

1:00:15

think it's important to have

1:00:18

that variety and sort of have that

1:00:21

list of offerings in a sense.

1:00:24

And I think from the FTC,

1:00:26

I think I realized that it's not

1:00:28

so hard and fast. I think I was thinking

1:00:31

about, okay, if I get 87

1:00:34

with my wash coffees, what can I do to get it?

1:00:36

To 88. 5 or something like that

1:00:38

and it's it's deeper than that,

1:00:41

you know, it's so it depends on The

1:00:43

climate on the day depends on how

1:00:45

clean your ferment tank is, how many

1:00:48

hands you have at hand. so

1:00:50

many different things. And I think yeah, I,

1:00:53

to be honest, my biggest takeaway

1:00:55

would have to be keeping an

1:00:57

open mind to yeast. I think yeast

1:01:00

or something that I was like, I

1:01:02

can do every now and then, but just seeing

1:01:04

how you can standardize

1:01:06

things, you can repeat things. I

1:01:09

think that was really, really impressive

1:01:11

and it was really interesting to watch

1:01:14

different yeasts and the analogy you

1:01:17

use of describing different yeasts

1:01:19

as different kinds of dogs I think

1:01:20

is... Different personalities.

1:01:23

Really important because you just see

1:01:25

people, I think in India especially, you

1:01:27

see yeasts and you're like, okay, cool, you're expecting

1:01:30

funk. Yeah. Or you're expecting a certain thing,

1:01:32

but that's not it. You're

1:01:35

meeting your end goal, but

1:01:37

in a more systematic manner, maybe.

1:01:40

Well, and I think it goes my personal philosophy

1:01:42

and what I try to bring across in

1:01:45

FTC in the same way that

1:01:47

you were kind of talking about wanting to have

1:01:49

a life outside of coffee. Like what I want to

1:01:51

transmit to producers is we

1:01:53

can make really good coffee with

1:01:56

a much smaller investment. And

1:01:58

then go on vacation, then go do something

1:02:00

else, you know, versus these producers that are spending

1:02:02

a hundred hours on these fermentations and these

1:02:04

like multi step, multi processes.

1:02:07

I'm like, man, we can, we can do really good coffee

1:02:09

in 36 hours and go scuba diving,

1:02:11

go do something else. Yeah, no, a hundred

1:02:13

percent. I think Rani is a really good case

1:02:15

study. I was, no joke, one of

1:02:17

the most impressive producers I've ever met

1:02:20

in the world. She reminds me of my

1:02:22

friend Nima of Lekali Coffee

1:02:24

Farm in just outside Kathmandu

1:02:26

in Nepal. Wow, incredibly

1:02:29

resourceful, knowledgeable,

1:02:31

and the full picture, you know. She, she

1:02:34

roasts, she cups, she has roasted

1:02:37

beans available for the internal

1:02:39

market. From what she told me, she's

1:02:42

exporting the processes

1:02:44

that I would never have thought about,

1:02:46

you know, like the the luwak and things

1:02:48

like that, which. Wow. That,

1:02:51

that's, I feel like it's,

1:02:53

it's a really good

1:02:55

example of literally

1:02:57

doing the most or bringing the most out

1:03:00

of what you have and, and

1:03:02

she's only just started,

1:03:04

you know,

1:03:04

I was going to say, yeah, the really

1:03:06

impressive part about Ronnie is also, she's

1:03:09

a newer processor and

1:03:11

she's, A lot of these systems

1:03:13

that she's been able to work very quickly to get

1:03:15

them in place and to get them successful. And

1:03:18

she's also an excellent example of somebody who

1:03:20

does travel. She does visit

1:03:23

the expos and she does have

1:03:26

like this access to just creativity

1:03:28

and new ideas. And she's a mother of three

1:03:31

about to have her fourth, like she does.

1:03:34

Yeah, for sure. And I think what, what

1:03:36

I really liked was that I, I

1:03:38

talked to her about. A wash, a

1:03:40

double, a double

1:03:43

soaked wash process that she did and,

1:03:46

and then I was telling her, she tried one of my honeys

1:03:48

and she was like, Hey, what did you do? And then I

1:03:50

told her the process and she's like, okay,

1:03:52

I'm going to try that. She wasn't arrogant

1:03:55

or stubborn to be like, no, this is my way

1:03:57

and I'm going to stick with this. And

1:03:59

I was, she was like, I'm going to try that and see how

1:04:01

it goes. And so that's open mindedness

1:04:03

and that's the only way you can, in

1:04:06

my opinion, get better and admit

1:04:08

to. Not your shortcomings,

1:04:10

but that there's sort of

1:04:13

room to learn and that

1:04:15

that was amazing to

1:04:16

see. Well, I think Ronnie is also somebody

1:04:18

who has a lot of confidence because I think

1:04:21

that that speaks a lot to her. That

1:04:23

she tasted your coffee. She talked to

1:04:25

you producer to producer. You were able

1:04:28

to explain your process and she with the open mind

1:04:30

said. I'm going to try that, that's interesting.

1:04:32

But in one of our class sessions, she

1:04:35

was mentioning how a buyer had told

1:04:37

her, you should be doing this, you should be doing more naturals.

1:04:39

And she very easily said, I don't agree. Like,

1:04:42

no. You don't tell me what

1:04:44

to

1:04:44

do. Things stick to your guns, like, or

1:04:47

like, if you don't want to make, sort

1:04:49

of, if you don't want friction, just

1:04:51

say, I just say yes. You know, I'm not going to say no,

1:04:53

I'm not going to do this. I just say yes, but I do

1:04:55

things my way. If you like it, you like

1:04:57

it, you don't, you don't. No worries. Yeah,

1:05:01

amazing. I think that was really impressive.

1:05:04

And it got me to think about my coffees

1:05:06

because we brew maybe

1:05:08

two, three times a day. And another producer

1:05:10

had one of my washed coffees. And I

1:05:12

know we talked about this where we said that they

1:05:15

said, Oh, it tastes like a Kenyan washed. And

1:05:17

like you described it, it was like a backhanded

1:05:20

comment almost, you know, where It's,

1:05:22

it's great to hear that because there's a standard of

1:05:24

Kenyan wash and it's up there. It's right up there,

1:05:27

but

1:05:27

right. So they meant it as a compliment. Like this is

1:05:29

a well structured, well made

1:05:31

coffee, like good for you. Yeah. But

1:05:34

it means that you're denying your identity.

1:05:36

Exactly. I'm not Kenyan. I don't want to be a Kenyan.

1:05:39

I'm an Indian producer.

1:05:40

Yeah, yeah, yeah, no, for sure. And that,

1:05:42

that's what I think is, it can be

1:05:44

a pro or a con because

1:05:47

In one way, I always think that

1:05:50

the bad reputation we've had in the past,

1:05:52

where it's high volume,

1:05:54

low quality, robust as has

1:05:57

done more damage to our

1:05:59

reputation than being like that

1:06:01

in certain parts of like North America, for example,

1:06:03

I met a lot of people who didn't know we've ever grown

1:06:05

coffee. And for me, no

1:06:08

reputations better than a bad reputation.

1:06:10

And so you're just starting with a clean slate.

1:06:13

And so with this coffee, I was like. Yeah,

1:06:16

I'm, I'm, I'm thank you for saying that. And that's

1:06:18

what you think about when you had my cup of coffee,

1:06:20

but we're also so

1:06:22

new that we haven't been able to define,

1:06:26

define what a top

1:06:28

quality Indian washed

1:06:30

coffee Arabica is. And so yeah,

1:06:33

I can swing either way, but I feel like it

1:06:36

gives you a canvas

1:06:38

to play with, you know, where you can define

1:06:40

things and you can sort of Again,

1:06:42

pioneer, but also

1:06:44

at the same time, you've got to be systematic

1:06:47

and manage expectations that

1:06:49

come with it.

1:06:50

I wanted to ask you about the

1:06:52

idea of consent and pictures and images

1:06:55

yeah I think there's been a lot of cases

1:06:57

where Our

1:06:59

workers are looked at as props.

1:07:01

They're looked at as, okay,

1:07:04

can you look up for a second and hold those red

1:07:06

cherries in your hand? And we'll

1:07:09

take this photo. And it makes me

1:07:11

think of a zoom conversation.

1:07:14

I just watched. Where Diego

1:07:17

Rebello of Akihares in

1:07:19

Costa Rica put it really put it

1:07:22

across really well what really resonated with

1:07:24

me was the fact that he talked

1:07:26

about how with his

1:07:28

workers or workers around there. If

1:07:31

you were to ask them in

1:07:33

their language, would you rather be

1:07:35

photographed at the Sunday

1:07:38

market or at work

1:07:40

on this farm? Everyone's going to say

1:07:42

at the Sunday market because like

1:07:44

you and I, we're going to be next

1:07:47

to or in the ferment tanks

1:07:50

in not our best clothes and our clothes

1:07:52

that we don't mind getting dirty and things like

1:07:54

that. That's the same thing. It's it's

1:07:56

you go to work in your work clothes,

1:07:59

you know? And so it's not just

1:08:01

this one particular incident, but

1:08:03

like it's a dynamic

1:08:05

where yeah. You feel

1:08:07

like you can't say no, also,

1:08:09

you know, and it comes to me as well,

1:08:11

but I'm like, I'm here.

1:08:14

I'm going to be buying your coffee. I

1:08:16

expect to take these photos and I expect

1:08:18

you to say yes. And you're in a weird

1:08:20

place because if you say no, you're thinking about

1:08:22

the fact that it's rude. Yeah.

1:08:25

Or will they, will they not buy my coffee because

1:08:27

of this? And it's, you're

1:08:29

thinking about all these things where Now

1:08:32

I'm very particular. I'm like, Hey, these are the

1:08:34

photos you can take. These are the people who

1:08:36

speak. Yeah. I said, these

1:08:38

are the people who speak English. These people don't

1:08:40

speak English. If, if you want to communicate

1:08:42

with them, I'm here. My dad's here.

1:08:45

My manager's here. They can translate for

1:08:47

us. But yeah, it's,

1:08:49

it's, it's not right. You know, it's

1:08:51

like you can't walk into someone else's workplace and

1:08:53

take photos of them and use it to

1:08:55

portray. Your

1:08:58

portrait to your clients, but yeah, I think

1:09:00

there's a lot of that going on. And so it's

1:09:02

something we have to be careful with.

1:09:05

And I

1:09:05

something that was really, you

1:09:07

know, striking in this conversation

1:09:10

in this idea is that you're right. When

1:09:12

we are taking pictures on a coffee

1:09:14

farm. When we work there

1:09:16

or at the mill, it is our worst

1:09:18

clothing and you know, we're dirty and

1:09:20

we're sweaty and you know, you're tired because you've been

1:09:22

physically working or just kind of dealing

1:09:24

with the realities of processing coffee.

1:09:27

And when that is the only picture

1:09:29

of you that exists in the world, and that is,

1:09:31

that is the image that we have of people that

1:09:33

work in these places. Then.

1:09:36

We're just associating like who they

1:09:38

are based on that image. So it's always

1:09:41

dirty and tired and in kind of this disheveled

1:09:43

state when you don't really get to see the person

1:09:45

as a whole person. And like you said,

1:09:48

when like these people have

1:09:50

other other lives. And so

1:09:52

for me working in the coffee farm in Columbia

1:09:54

in the mill I would see everybody.

1:09:58

working. And then on Sundays we would go to

1:10:00

the town and go to the market and, you

1:10:02

know, shop our groceries. And everybody came

1:10:04

to town, like these coffee producers and even

1:10:06

the pickers, they would come to town

1:10:09

in their Sunday best hair slick

1:10:11

back really nice button up shirts, their

1:10:13

shoes polished. I mean, they looked like completely different

1:10:15

people and you know, in that sense, and

1:10:17

there was so much pride in their

1:10:19

appearance. But if we're only ever seeing

1:10:21

them in their work, work clothes,

1:10:24

We're just painting such a picture of this type

1:10:27

of work. And I think that we don't realize

1:10:29

how much, inadvertently, it,

1:10:31

like, erodes dignity. And really

1:10:33

makes us, or allows us to see people, like, in this

1:10:36

one way. And I think that,

1:10:38

that's something that I really loved about

1:10:40

Baba's book, the Milk Coffee Blood. That

1:10:42

being, producers being seen as producers want

1:10:45

to be seen. Yeah. Not as we see them. Yeah,

1:10:47

yeah, yeah. Like, in their, you know, having the... Their

1:10:50

own gaze versus like the buyer gaze.

1:10:52

I thought it was a more important work

1:10:54

that there's not enough of.

1:10:56

Yeah. Yeah. And I think also with on that

1:10:58

note, like India runs that risk

1:11:01

of exoticizing an

1:11:04

origin. It's like big

1:11:06

farms, 80 people working for

1:11:08

you and you're striving to be the best. And

1:11:11

we are, but two different ways.

1:11:13

We, like how we mentioned

1:11:15

Australia and the sort of balance, like, It's

1:11:18

about taking that couple of days off and

1:11:20

finishing work and buying

1:11:23

whatever you need from the market or

1:11:25

whatever it might be. And so yeah,

1:11:27

I think that it's a power dynamic,

1:11:29

but it's also sort of a mindset that it

1:11:32

just needs to change.

1:11:35

So, yeah, thank you for sharing Well,

1:11:38

as we wrap up, is there anything else that you had wanted

1:11:40

to talk about that you're excited

1:11:42

about or?

1:11:43

I think, yeah, I think, it's been interesting

1:11:45

to see, just with the FTC

1:11:48

and sort of coming together. that

1:11:52

they're coming together of producers. I feel

1:11:54

like what was really good is

1:11:56

that I think we can

1:11:58

bring together a community of,

1:12:01

in this case, producers who were

1:12:04

not really competing. You know, it's like, Hey,

1:12:06

I can tell you what I do and you can tell me what you do.

1:12:08

And it doesn't,

1:12:11

it's not that you are eating up

1:12:13

into the other person's

1:12:15

slice of the pie and I think that

1:12:17

can be huge just building this community

1:12:19

of give and

1:12:21

take sort of relationship between producers,

1:12:24

which I found through your discord channel, actually,

1:12:26

where there's people like Lorena,

1:12:28

who I met, I'd never met before. It was just through

1:12:31

the channel. And so it's like, Hey,

1:12:33

I can ask you a question of Paula, who she

1:12:36

asked me about fermentation stuff. I asked her

1:12:38

about roasting stuff and vice versa

1:12:40

as well. And so, yeah. I think the

1:12:42

connection of people

1:12:45

on that end of the value chain is

1:12:48

incredibly valuable. I think it's non

1:12:50

competing again, but

1:12:52

yeah, I'm excited just to go and

1:12:54

again have the privilege to travel and learn

1:12:57

from other people. I think that's something that, yeah,

1:13:00

I'm super excited about.

1:13:02

Awesome. We'll end with that because that was beautiful

1:13:05

so don't you just want to be Purnoy's friend now?

1:13:08

You know, one of the points that stayed with me from

1:13:10

that conversation was when he was sharing

1:13:12

his experience of how climate change is affecting

1:13:14

his production and the change he is seeing

1:13:16

on the farm over several years, and

1:13:19

was basically being told like, nah,

1:13:21

I disagree. Like, I, I disagree

1:13:23

with your facts. So

1:13:25

I thought that was really interesting and, you know, some

1:13:28

next level hubris. another

1:13:30

point that I keep thinking about, I've thought a lot

1:13:33

about ever since this conversation, was,

1:13:36

He, I appreciated how he pointed out

1:13:38

the missed opportunities for Indian farmers

1:13:40

in naming their coffee variety such unromantic

1:13:43

names as Selection 5B. It's

1:13:47

a small detail, but it can be a huge drawback

1:13:49

when trying to reach new markets. So

1:13:51

next time you're buying a bag of roasted coffee,

1:13:54

try to keep an open mind and notice

1:13:56

how much of your buying decision is based on

1:13:58

a name. And, you

1:14:00

know, I'm not trying to persuade you one way or

1:14:02

another. I don't think there's really a right way.

1:14:04

I just think it's interesting to think about what we are

1:14:06

drawn to and why we buy what we buy.

1:14:09

And it's total human nature. We

1:14:11

buy things based on how they look. For

1:14:14

example, if I'm staring down a huge wall

1:14:16

of 300 unfamiliar wines, meaning

1:14:18

I know nothing about these wines, like I just walked

1:14:20

into a new wine shop or something, I

1:14:22

will absolutely buy one wine over

1:14:24

another depending on what the label

1:14:27

looks like. So just on looks. And

1:14:29

I'm not necessarily looking for what a label says,

1:14:31

meaning I'm not looking for any buzzwords like organic

1:14:34

or sustainable or estate or reserve

1:14:36

or anything like that. I'm talking about

1:14:38

the literal design of the label. What

1:14:40

colors and what typefaces did they use?

1:14:42

Like, what does a label look like? Not what

1:14:45

does it say? Like, not what is the information content

1:14:47

on that label? However, instead

1:14:49

of picking the most aesthetically pleasing

1:14:52

bottle, the most aesthetically, you know, cool

1:14:54

design, I actually do the opposite.

1:14:56

I have a, a policy for buying

1:14:59

unknown wine that I pick the

1:15:01

older, dumpier looking label. And

1:15:04

from being in the wine industry, my,

1:15:06

my reasoning is that the flashier the label,

1:15:08

The more effort they put into the design,

1:15:11

the less the wine can speak for itself.

1:15:13

So, that's why I look for ugly

1:15:15

labels where wine brands couldn't be

1:15:17

bothered to be flashy because the wine is

1:15:19

just so good. If you take, for example,

1:15:22

some of the wines that we've talked about on this podcast,

1:15:24

like the Chateau Margaux, some

1:15:26

of the most famous, the most expensive,

1:15:29

the most revered and respected wines

1:15:31

have really boring, dumpy labels.

1:15:33

You know, no color, no flash, they

1:15:35

haven't been redesigned since, you know, The

1:15:38

1600s like they're just like a white

1:15:40

label with some beige writing, you

1:15:42

know, telling you the name of

1:15:44

the winery and pretty much nothing else. There's very,

1:15:47

you know, little design elements

1:15:49

put into these labels and those are the ones that

1:15:51

I find not every time, but over and

1:15:53

over again, that's kind of what I'm drawn to if I don't

1:15:55

know anything else about a wine. And

1:15:58

I also have used this. Theory

1:16:00

on mezcal. So when I'm

1:16:02

looking to try something new or potentially

1:16:04

to buy something, in my experience, the best

1:16:06

mezcals that I've had are usually

1:16:09

come in like a reused container, like a jug

1:16:11

that was originally something else and

1:16:13

the labels are really simple, you know,

1:16:15

black sharpie writing on masking

1:16:17

tape. Oh, and one last thing I

1:16:19

am so excited to mention is that,

1:16:22

although it's not 100% yet, Pranoy

1:16:24

and I are in talks to do an FTC

1:16:26

camp hosted in Kerehaklu, perhaps

1:16:29

at the end of next year, so the end

1:16:31

of 2024. So like I said,

1:16:33

we're still in the planning stages, and I

1:16:35

will absolutely share more details as we come

1:16:37

up with them. But in the meantime, if

1:16:39

you want to be notified of future camps,

1:16:41

you can get on the wait list by writing to

1:16:44

info. lushacoffee at

1:16:46

gmail. com and putting wait

1:16:48

list in the subject line. And while

1:16:50

you're at it, please tell me a little bit about yourself.

1:16:53

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1:16:55

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1:16:57

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1:17:01

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