0:00

Hi, History Makers, Eric here. I

0:03

wanted to tell you about an exciting challenge grant

0:06

we have in effect thanks to Making Gay History superfans

0:09

Patrick Hines and Steve Tipton. Patrick

0:11

and Steve have generously committed to donating $25,000 if we

0:14

can raise that same amount

0:17

from our listeners by the end of Pride Month. So

0:19

if you love the stories we share and you love

0:22

a good dollar-for-dollar match, I

0:24

hope you'll consider donating before July 1st

0:26

to help us unlock the full $25,000 grant. To

0:30

make a tax-deductible contribution, just

0:32

go to makinggayhistory.com and

0:35

click on the Donate button. And while you're

0:37

there, you can also join our Patreon

0:39

community, where for $5 a month you

0:41

get access to new video interviews, behind-the-scenes

0:44

conversations, and never-before-heard

0:46

archival audio. However

0:48

you choose to support Making Gay History, thank

0:51

you for helping us bring LGBTQ

0:53

history to life through the voices of the people who

0:55

lived it.

1:01

By the time I finished my first year of college,

1:04

I couldn't exactly fool myself into thinking

1:06

I wasn't gay, even though it wasn't what

1:08

I wanted for my life.

1:10

I'd been through enough men by that point to

1:12

set aside any doubts that this was who

1:14

I was and that a wife and kids were not in my future.

1:18

But I had no clear image of what my future would hold,

1:21

what life might look like for this gay man. If

1:24

there were role models out there for the kind of life

1:26

I might want to lead, I hadn't

1:29

seen them. In April 1977,

1:32

toward the end of that first year, I

1:34

turned a sociology paper into a personal

1:36

fact-finding mission.

1:38

Under the cover of research, I

1:40

spent hours in the Vassar Library poring

1:43

over books about gay people.

1:45

I wasn't ready to be out in class, so I masked

1:47

my subject matter interest by adding

1:49

a decoy subject. I named

1:51

the paper, Marginal Man,

1:54

The Alcoholic

1:56

and the Homosexual.

1:57

My name is Eileen Leonard and

2:00

I was a professor of sociology at

2:02

Vassar and I worked there for 44 years. I

2:06

started in 1975.

2:08

So you arrived one year before I

2:10

did? Yes. I don't expect you to remember

2:12

me from the class. It was intro

2:14

sociology in the spring of 1977. Right,

2:16

right.

2:17

In fact, I do remember

2:20

you from that class. I think I have

2:22

a clearer memory of the students that I had

2:24

initially than I do as the decades

2:27

went by.

2:27

I can't believe we're having this conversation

2:30

all these years later. So let's talk

2:33

about my paper from April of 1977. I

2:36

may seem like a crazy person, but I saved all

2:38

of my papers from Vassar College.

2:41

I didn't think I was a particularly good writer, but reading

2:43

this paper over, I thought, well, for 18 years old, it was

2:45

pretty good. I was sort of out, but sort

2:48

of

2:48

not. Actually, by then I had broken

2:51

up with my girlfriend. I had a

2:52

boyfriend. It was a very confusing

2:55

year. I was really interested in writing about

2:57

the homosexual, not the alcoholic. I

2:59

went to the Vassar library to look and the

3:01

card catalog. A lot of

3:03

what I found was

3:04

terrible, but a

3:07

lot was also very interesting. The

3:09

reason I included alcoholics

3:11

is I thought if I only wrote about homosexuals

3:13

that you would figure out I was gay. I

3:16

found this concept of marginal men. It's a

3:18

category, which I learned in sociology,

3:21

which allowed me to do the paper. So

3:23

I'm going

3:26

to read the conclusion to the paper. It's a little

3:28

embarrassing because it's just I'm reading

3:30

my 18-year-old self. This is

3:32

just the last paragraph. If present

3:34

trends in the legitimization of

3:36

homosexuality continue, then

3:39

surely there is hope for the perhaps reluctant

3:42

acceptance of homosexuality into

3:44

American culture. Maybe then homosexuality

3:47

can be removed from the list of marginal men

3:50

so that the list reads one less member than

3:52

it does today.

3:54

Alcoholics, exclamation point. Homosexuals,

3:57

exclamation point. Marginal?

3:59

That's up to you. And then

4:02

I have one, two, three, four, five,

4:04

six, seven, eight exclamation points.

4:07

You gave me an A. Yes. I'm

4:10

not sure I would have. So if you don't mind

4:13

reading your handwritten comments at

4:15

the end of the paper. I'd

4:15

be happy to do that. And now I'm reading my

4:17

28-year-old self-commenting.

4:21

Your paper is well done. You should

4:24

have elaborated on the concept of marginal

4:26

man in more detail at the beginning of the

4:28

paper, but what's here is well written

4:30

and well organized. You point out

4:32

how difficult it is to be marginal in

4:34

society. This is clearly the case

4:37

for all kinds of quote unquote deviance.

4:40

I'm not sure I share your optimism about

4:42

the future status of homosexuality.

4:45

There is still

4:45

a long way to go and always

4:48

a possibility of regression.

4:51

I'm Eric Marcus.

4:54

This is Coming of Age during the 1970s. Chapter 5. Thank

4:56

you, Anita.

5:03

In my family, we discovered

5:06

real orange juice a little late because we didn't have money.

5:08

We were basically working class poor.

5:11

The first time I had fresh squeezed orange juice was

5:13

a special, special treat. I was so

5:15

shocked because it didn't even vaguely resemble

5:18

the orange stuff that came out

5:20

of a carton, which they may

5:22

have called it orange juice, but it didn't taste

5:24

that way. So I knew

5:27

of Anita Bryant as the orange

5:29

juice lady. And I recall

5:31

their slogan was something to the effect. A

5:34

day without orange juice is like a day without

5:36

sunshine. So that's how I knew Anita

5:38

Bryant.

5:48

While

5:48

New York City tried and failed and

5:51

tried and failed and

5:53

tried and failed to pass a gay rights bill, dozens

5:56

of places hit it first time lucky all

5:59

over the country. From Washington, D.C.

6:01

to Chicago to Kansas City, Columbus,

6:04

Ohio to Chapel Hill, North Carolina, Minneapolis

6:07

and Bloomington, Indiana.

6:10

By the end of 1976, 37 jurisdictions had legislated in

6:14

some way to protect gay people from discrimination.

6:18

But my sociology professor was right.

6:21

The backlash was coming.

6:25

On January 18, 1977, Miami-Dade

6:29

County held a hearing to amend its

6:31

human rights ordinance to forbid discrimination

6:34

based on, quote, sexual or affectionate

6:36

preference. Like New York,

6:39

Florida sodomy law had yet to be

6:41

repealed. So this wasn't

6:43

about legalizing physical relationships between

6:45

two people of the same sex. This

6:48

was about protecting people from being fired

6:50

or denied housing or discriminated

6:52

against in public accommodations because

6:54

of their sexual

6:55

orientation. The

7:00

hearing was packed. Church

7:02

folks, gay rights activists, and

7:05

toward the end, a celebrity.

7:07

The orange juice lady got up to testify.

7:11

A one-time beauty queen, a former Miss

7:13

Oklahoma, she said she was speaking

7:15

as a wife and mother.

7:17

Sounding as though she was about to cry, she said the proposed

7:20

amendment would cause discrimination against her and other Christians.

7:24

They were the real victims.

7:27

I believe I have that right, that

7:29

I can and do say no

7:32

to a very serious moral issue

7:35

that would violate my rights and

7:37

the rights of all the decent and morally

7:39

upstanding citizens regardless of their

7:42

race

7:42

or religion. The

7:44

final vote was five in favor, three

7:47

against. The ordinance passed. Gay

7:50

people celebrated, but those who opposed

7:52

it got busy. The ordinance becomes

7:54

law in ten days, but a religious group

7:57

headed by Anita Bryant said it will have

7:59

definitely been a

7:59

begin a petition drive to repeal the law.

8:02

Bryant and her supporters gathered six times

8:05

more signatures than needed to put repeal

8:07

on the ballot. The Dade County

8:09

Commission voted to call a special election

8:11

on June 7th. Repealing

8:13

ordinances became a rallying cry for the

8:16

Christian right, not just in Florida, but

8:18

around the country. The Save Our Children

8:20

campaign had been born. The

8:22

brewing backlash had broken through with

8:24

the perfect brand ambassador,

8:26

Anita Bryant.

8:34

Just biologically that God made mothers

8:36

so that we could reproduce, homosexuals

8:38

cannot reproduce biologically, but

8:40

they have to reproduce by recruiting

8:43

our children.

8:52

Summer, 1977. Queens, New York. Jamaica

8:57

Estates. A skinny

8:59

Tudor revival house on a leafy

9:01

street. In, it was probably

9:03

July, I was back from college,

9:06

living at home, which was a little tense

9:08

to start with because my mother and I had not

9:10

been getting along since my, since

9:13

I was 16, I think. Before

9:16

I left for college, she would often

9:18

say, I can't wait for you to leave. And I would say, I

9:21

can't wait to leave too.

9:24

Typical teenage stuff, but also I was gay

9:26

and coming to terms with it and was just angry

9:28

all the time. And depressed.

9:31

My mother and I had this complex relationship

9:34

that was in no small part related to the fact that my

9:36

father and mother split up when I was 10 and

9:38

my father then killed himself when I was 12. And

9:41

my mother depended upon me like a

9:43

partner as opposed to treating

9:46

me like her child. I knew way too much,

9:48

but I also wasn't in control. When it

9:50

was convenient for her, I

9:52

was then the child again and she made decisions,

9:54

even if I thought they were the wrong decisions. And I

9:57

deeply resented some of those things.

9:59

Interior. Kitchen. It's

10:02

morning. It was really an ugly

10:05

kitchen that had been done over by the people who lived

10:07

there before. It was dark, paneling

10:10

faux wood. And

10:13

we had a Formica kitchen

10:16

dinette set. The table

10:18

is pockmarked, damaged years

10:20

before, when Eric's mother flew

10:23

into a rage and hacked at it with a spatula,

10:26

sending chips of Formica flying.

10:30

I

10:31

remember at breakfast one morning,

10:33

picking up, I don't remember if we subscribed to

10:35

Time Magazine or Newsweek, I remember

10:37

holding the magazine and Anita Bryant was

10:39

on the cover and I was

10:42

in a rage and I said

10:45

that these were all lies. Who

10:47

is she? Who is Anita Bryant? This

10:49

is horrible. This is not

10:52

true about gay people. And I

10:54

recall being wildly

10:56

outraged, uncontrollably angry,

10:59

that people were referring to people

11:01

like me as recruiters. Why

11:04

is she saying this in print? Why is

11:06

she leading this campaign? Now they

11:08

use the word groomer. It's just, you know,

11:11

same product, different flavor. Anita

11:13

Bryant so enraged me because

11:15

I felt like she was reinforcing

11:18

all the things that, bad things that people thought about us and

11:21

also all the bad things I thought about myself. We

11:23

were sick, sinful, perverted and destined

11:27

to lead a life of ruin. Whereas

11:30

that

11:31

book, everything you want to know about sex but

11:33

afraid to ask, said about homosexuals, that

11:35

we were destined to have furtive

11:37

relationships and hideout in bushes

11:39

and offer candy to small children. So

11:43

even though I came to understand that that wasn't who

11:45

I was and that these were lies, it

11:47

was painful and enraging

11:49

to hear someone like Anita Bryant speak

11:52

so fervently

11:54

about how awful we were and that

11:56

we were a danger to children. And I remember thinking,

11:59

you're a danger. to children. I'm not the danger

12:01

to children because you are harming people like

12:04

me. I will never

12:06

fucking drink orange juice again.

12:09

My mother did not engage

12:11

me in conversation at that point other

12:13

than to say, why are you so upset? I don't

12:15

understand why you're so concerned about this. And

12:17

then I realized I might have tipped my hand.

12:20

That was closeted. That was a

12:22

very hard thing for me. I'm a terrible liar.

12:24

So I wasn't consciously

12:26

dropping hints and backed

12:29

off.

12:31

Anita Bryant's Save Our Children campaign

12:33

was the first organized opposition to the gay

12:36

rights movement. It was well organized,

12:38

well funded, and in a way it

12:41

illustrated how far we'd come that

12:43

gay liberation organizing provoked

12:45

such a response.

12:46

And it in turn provoked a response from

12:49

us.

12:50

LGBTQ people who heard Bryant's

12:52

language of bigotry and hate

12:55

realized that progress isn't inevitable

12:58

or a straight line.

13:01

Bob Kunst was one of the key gay activists

13:03

in Miami-Dade, an unabashed radical.

13:06

Here he is taking on the fundamentalist Christian

13:08

agenda for what it was, a smear

13:11

campaign accusing gay people, especially

13:14

gay men, of being child molesters.

13:16

Just like in New York City, opponents of Miami's

13:19

ordinance focused their messaging on

13:21

protecting children. Bob

13:23

Kunst was calling them out. Last

13:26

year, Florida had 100,000 child abuse cases, 30,000 which were reported, 1,200

13:31

kids literally killed by their own parents. Where

13:33

was the so-called Save Our Children when we really needed

13:35

them? The hate and viciousness assaulting

13:38

this entire community has backfired strongly

13:40

against the Anita Bryant forces because they haven't proven

13:42

their case at all. Not one incident

13:45

has happened here since passage of this ordinance, January

13:47

18th, nor in any of the 40 communities that have

13:49

passed such an ordinance, nor in the two

13:51

communities, Iowa City, Iowa, and Tucson,

13:54

Arizona, that have passed there since this began.

13:55

And what is happening with the so-called

13:58

Save Our Children is that they are asking for

13:59

a asking for the right to discriminate, not only against

14:02

gay people, but those who practice birth control

14:04

and have had abortions, who smoke pot, drink

14:06

alcohol, men and women who live with each other who are not

14:08

married, etc., ad nausea. In other

14:10

words, the attack appears to be on everyone who

14:13

cannot fit their molds, who they cannot control,

14:15

and who have different affectionate and sexual preferences.

14:18

Efforts to repeal anti-discrimination ordinances,

14:20

inspired by Save Our Children, in some cases

14:23

sponsored by it, were springing up all

14:25

over in places like Wichita, Kansas,

14:27

St. Paul, Dakota, and Eugene, Oregon.

14:30

In Seattle, Charlie Bryden

14:32

was aware of the rising tide of reactionary forces.

14:35

He was a businessman who gathered other gay

14:38

and lesbian business people for networking lunches

14:40

under the banner of the Dorian Group. His

14:43

organization was instrumental in passing a

14:45

nondiscrimination ordinance in Seattle in 1975.

14:50

Interview with Charles Bryden, Sunday, November 19, 1989, at 12.30

14:52

p.m., at the home of Charles Bryden

14:57

in Seattle, Washington. Interviewer

14:59

is Eric Marcus, tape one,

15:00

side one. Charlie remembers

15:03

when Anita Bryant first hit his radar. She

15:05

was singing Orange Juice commercials, and she

15:08

was this former entertainer,

15:11

and she seemed quite benign, and then

15:13

she does this thing down there, and it

15:15

caused quite a tizzy. I

15:17

think people up here largely saw

15:19

it as, you know, there's this

15:22

attitude of Easterners towards Westerners.

15:24

Well, there's also some of that handed

15:26

back in return, and only the primitives over

15:28

there could have this happen

15:31

to them. There

15:33

was a little arrogance in that, a lot of arrogance

15:35

in that. Some

15:39

money was raised here. I

15:41

know it's one of the Dorian dinners, I think. We even

15:44

had a general collection and raised

15:47

a couple thousand dollars. It was a

15:49

feeling that it was there, but it wasn't,

15:51

you know, an immediate threat to people here.

15:54

What was the purpose of raising the money for? Where did it

15:56

go? Down to Florida.

15:59

they are gay rights groups around

16:02

the country we're raising money to send to florida

16:04

and fun the fight against repeal political

16:07

operatives from san francisco a new york when

16:09

down to miami to pitch him but

16:12

as the drumbeat for appeal grew louder and

16:14

other parts of the country they still

16:16

seem far away from where charlie were saying

16:18

was a sense of well here as yell at least

16:20

yeah we're we're way beyond that we got the

16:22

ordinances the environment so much different as

16:28

a little censor

16:29

little snobbery probably and in that

16:32

the fight in miami was taking center stage

16:35

nationally save our children

16:37

lobbied hard to defeat a resolution

16:39

before congress each or to know

16:41

nine eight for a nationwide ban

16:43

on homophobic discrimination in housing

16:46

employment and public accommodations

16:48

in florida save our children ran

16:50

full page ads in the miami herald

16:52

and the miami news according

16:55

to gay activists the herald refused

16:57

to run ads from groups supporting the nondiscrimination

16:59

ordinance

16:59

and this

17:02

tv commercial from save our children

17:04

the engine to florida homes in the run

17:06

up to the vote miami

17:10

in asia at a time in

17:12

san francisco when they take

17:14

the the street it's a parade of homosexual

17:17

men are going other men cavorting with

17:19

little boys

17:21

despite charged rhetoric like that

17:24

gay

17:24

people don't exist they flaunt

17:26

they don't march they cavort despite

17:28

the actual words we heard coming out of their

17:30

actual mouse those campaigning

17:33

against equal rights insisted

17:35

they weren't coming after gay people they

17:38

were just defending children from being quote

17:40

recruited by us

17:43

that really thin loved gay

17:45

people however he

17:47

goalie how can you hear me rolling my

17:49

eyes eleven enough to tell the too

17:52

because i know that there is hope for the how essential

17:55

that they're willing to turn

17:57

from ah anything with any

17:59

and that

18:01

they can be ex-homosexuals, the same as there can

18:03

be an ex-murder, an ex-thief, or ex-anybody.

18:07

On June 7, 1977, Miami-Dade residents voted 2-1

18:09

to repeal the gay rights ordinance.

18:15

The next day, The New York Times published an op-ed

18:18

from the co-executive directors of the National Gay

18:20

and Lesbian Task Force, Gino Leary

18:22

and Bruce Veller.

18:23

It began, quote, Anita

18:26

Bryant and Her Save Our Children, Inc.,

18:28

are doing the 20 million lesbians and gay

18:31

men in America an enormous

18:33

favor.

18:34

They are focusing for the public the

18:36

nature of the prejudice and discrimination

18:38

we face. Close quote.

18:42

The question was, did highlighting

18:45

the nature of that prejudice and discrimination

18:48

mean that Florida would be an exception?

18:51

Or were newly passed

18:53

ordinances around the country about to

18:55

topple one by one?

18:58

Charlie Brydon again. Then it got a little

19:00

more uncomfortable is that Bryant

19:02

things started to spread elsewhere. There

19:04

was a problem in Colorado and then

19:06

Kansas City and St.

19:09

Paul. I think the St. Paul thing shook

19:11

a lot of people up. Those drum

19:13

beats of regression were sounding much

19:16

closer to home.

19:17

When Charlie Brydon picked up the Free

19:19

Weekly newspaper in Seattle at the end of June 1977,

19:23

he almost choked. His face was staring

19:25

back at him. Beside the headline, Ready

19:28

When You Are, Anita? I

19:30

just had a cow at that

19:32

headline. I raised hell

19:35

with the editor. I said, how could you? I

19:37

never even said that. You put it in

19:39

quotes and put it on the front page. What

19:43

a provocative thing to do. It's very uncharacteristic

19:45

of me. That's a full

19:47

page picture of you on the front page saying, Ready

19:49

When You Are, Anita? Yes. It

19:51

couldn't have been. I

19:53

never said it. Oh,

19:57

well. That's dated.

19:59

June 29th of July 5th, 1977. So

20:04

this was before the repeal was called for here in Seattle?

20:07

Charlie was angry at that front page because

20:09

he wanted to take a different approach in Seattle.

20:12

Instead of provoking or even loudly

20:15

responding to the Save Our Children campaign,

20:17

he wanted to deny them the oxygen of publicity,

20:20

to ignore them in the hopes they would go away.

20:23

After the defeat in Dade County, the

20:26

blame game was in full swing.

20:28

Familiar splits and controversies

20:30

like how radical to be, how

20:32

provocative, whether to ask nicely

20:34

or demand loudly, were back on

20:37

the gay agenda. And the issue didn't

20:39

go away in Seattle.

20:41

In the spring of 1978, a pair of police officers filed

20:45

to repeal the city's gay rights ordinances.

20:48

They needed to collect 17,000 signatures by August 1st to

20:52

get it on the November ballot. I just remember,

20:54

I thought, oh, they'll never get the signatures. And

20:56

I kind of... The strategy at the

20:59

time was to not draw any media attention

21:01

to the signature gathering issue. What

21:04

at that point, in 1977, I had quite... Generally,

21:08

the community had some very wonderful political

21:10

chips.

21:14

When this cop filed the petitions

21:17

to gather signatures, we

21:20

immediately formed a very quiet group

21:22

to begin planning. And most of it was the political

21:24

brains of the city that came together

21:27

and gave me the

21:29

advice, don't do anything to give media attention

21:31

to it. Well, now that immediately put me at odds

21:33

with the radicals who wanted to

21:35

focus attention on this and try and

21:37

create, I suspect,

21:39

the feeling that you are a bad person if you sign

21:42

these petitions. So

21:44

anyhow, the

21:44

thing eventually did qualify,

21:47

and we did face

21:49

that. I was probably the darkest

21:52

evening of my life was

21:54

the day that the news

21:57

reported that the petition...

21:59

had been filed and they contained more

22:02

than adequate signatures to place

22:04

this thing on the ballot. And

22:08

well, I just didn't know what we would do. Why

22:11

was it? Was it such a dark day? Because you didn't know what direction

22:13

it was moving. It was very depressing to see that this

22:15

thing had actually was going to descend on Seattle.

22:17

I mean, what we had seen was a chain of defeats

22:20

around the country. Why

22:22

would it be any different here?

22:27

I don't think she had a clue that

22:30

I was until the moment that she finally asked

22:32

me if I was gay.

22:35

Jamaica Estates, Queens,

22:38

Summer 1977, The Marcus Family Home. Probably

22:45

within days of the Anita Bryant conversation,

22:47

I was going out.

22:50

It was early evening to see a

22:52

friend of mine. And she asked how he was doing.

22:54

And I said, you know, I don't think he's doing so well. He's

22:57

been very depressed. I think he might be gay. She

23:01

got suspicious and

23:03

stopped and paused and said, why

23:07

are you being so casual about that? And

23:10

that's when she, she almost was speaking to herself.

23:12

She said, well, maybe that's because you're

23:15

gay.

23:17

And

23:18

then I said, see you

23:21

later, Ma.

23:32

If I could do it over, I would

23:34

have said, and there are no do overs in

23:36

this world. I would have said, let's sit down and

23:38

talk about this. But that's me, 64

23:41

year old, me talking now, 18 year

23:43

old me wanted out of there as fast as I could

23:45

get out of there. And she didn't say stop.

23:48

And maybe

23:51

I said, let's talk about that later.

23:53

I don't recall saying that. I just remember saying goodbye.

23:56

And I headed out the door in the kitchen,

23:58

which went into the garage.

23:59

and drove to my friend's house

24:02

and I said to Richard, what am I gonna do, what

24:04

am I gonna do?

24:06

My mother thinks I'm gay and he knew

24:09

I was gay. And

24:11

I stayed quite late at

24:13

Richard's, hoping my mother would

24:15

be asleep by the time I got home. And

24:18

I remember you could

24:21

roll down the driveway with the car

24:24

off and the lights off.

24:27

So I turned into the driveway, rolled down

24:30

the driveway, with

24:32

the lights off and with the engine off and

24:34

I crept back into the house and crept

24:37

up the stairs. My mom's bedroom was off

24:39

the stairs on the second floor. I had my

24:41

bedroom on the third floor. I had to open a door and go

24:43

up those stairs. I literally

24:45

crawled up the stairs on all four

24:48

so that the stairs wouldn't creak

24:50

and

24:50

wake my mom up. But

24:52

as I got to the landing, I

24:55

could see my mother's door was open to crack and

24:58

she said, I want to talk to you.

25:02

So, and you can only imagine

25:04

how my heart

25:05

was pounding at this point because

25:07

like any gay kid or most gay kids, I was

25:09

terrified of what my mother would say. And I

25:12

was such a good boy that

25:15

this was the one incredible stain

25:17

that I was gonna, that

25:21

this was

25:22

just the one incredible stain. I

25:25

had got good grades. I didn't cause trouble

25:27

other than being a very cranky kid at that point.

25:30

So I went into her bedroom

25:33

and

25:34

sat on the bed. She

25:37

was already in bed. And

25:42

I don't remember what she said, interestingly,

25:47

but I recall saying, yes,

25:51

I'm gay. And I said,

25:53

do you feel guilty? Because by this

25:55

point I had investigated PFLAG, which

25:58

was once known as Parents, Friends, and Friends. and families of lesbians

26:01

and gays. And from my understanding

26:03

and my research, parents often

26:05

felt guilty about having

26:07

a gay kid, that

26:10

they saw it as their fault. That was one of the

26:12

beliefs. Aggressive mother, passive

26:14

father, all of that Freudian

26:18

bullshit. And

26:21

she said, I don't feel guilty, I'm disappointed.

26:26

Now, she might have just as well

26:28

picked up a knife and stuck it in my heart.

26:31

And I started crying, because there

26:32

was nothing worse

26:36

she could have said than she was disappointed. The

26:41

last part of our conversation was me telling

26:43

her that I wanted her to go to PFLAG. And

26:45

she said she wanted

26:47

me to go to a psychiatrist. And I assumed she wanted

26:50

me to go to a psychiatrist because she wanted me to

26:52

change.

26:55

I said no, and she said no. We were both very stubborn.

27:03

And that was the conversation. I went back up to my room. It

27:09

was too late to call anybody. We didn't

27:11

have the internet or texts or any

27:13

of that. And that was the conversation. That's how it

27:15

went. Now,

27:18

I learned

27:19

later that my mother wanted me to see a psychiatrist because

27:21

she was a psychiatrist. And

27:24

she was fearful that I would

27:27

kill myself because

27:30

she recognized me as being depressed. And

27:33

my father had killed himself a few years prior.

27:35

So I was not appreciative of her

27:37

concern in that regard. It

27:40

was many years before she went to

27:42

PFLAG and it was many years before

27:44

I went to a therapist. I

27:47

wish that she had gone to PFLAG early.

27:49

I wish I had gone to a therapist early. I really

27:51

needed a therapist even more than she needed PFLAG.

27:54

And

27:56

I wish I had handled it differently. I

28:00

have written about the

28:02

ideal way in which young people can share

28:04

this news with their parents. The ideal

28:06

way is not to have a parent say, I

28:08

think you might be gay, and then to say,

28:10

bye Ma, I'm out of here. But

28:13

I was scared.

28:14

And I, I mean, I have a lot of compassion

28:17

for myself at that age. I was 18 years old. So

28:20

I

28:21

was doing the best I could in a world that was, that

28:23

was often challenging for young gay

28:26

people. But I nonetheless

28:29

was incredibly relieved that

28:33

it was going to be OK.

28:36

I would also add, not just, not

28:38

just that you're 18, it's always hard to be young

28:41

and not just that the world it was challenging.

28:44

But I think there's

28:45

also, if I may editorialize,

28:47

I mean, you're getting at this already. I

28:49

mean, it just sounds like you were two people

28:51

who ended up

28:53

really doing the best you could considering that you

28:55

were sort of you

28:57

were moving without a map, you were going without a guide.

29:00

Like no one had written the books that you had written yet.

29:02

You couldn't go online to find out the best

29:04

way to come out to your parents. I mean, it

29:06

sounds to me kind of remarkable that you've

29:09

you did the best you could with no guidance. Do

29:11

you feel that's accurate? Yeah,

29:13

with a little bit of guidance, I'm thinking that

29:16

I probably knew about PFLAG. I must have looked

29:18

at some of their material because I knew that parents

29:20

often felt guilty. I did I had

29:22

done my research for for my my

29:25

social sociology class for Miss Leonard

29:27

in the in the spring of 77. So

29:30

I I had more understanding, I think, than most

29:32

young gay people.

29:35

But really, there there wasn't I couldn't give my mother.

29:38

Is it a choice? Questions and answers about gay

29:40

and lesbian people or lesbian gay people? I can't

29:42

remember what the title is. The book I wrote later. But

29:45

based on my experience, then I I

29:48

knew later that I wanted to write a book that

29:51

would provide people with the answers that I didn't

29:53

have at that age. So yeah, I was

29:55

operating in my mom was operating in

29:58

a world that did.

29:59

not provide the kinds

30:02

of information and guidance that are

30:04

available today to young people

30:06

and to parents. And it was still a world where

30:09

homosexuality was not discussed openly

30:12

and not nearly as visible

30:15

as it

30:17

is now. Remember, it was 1977 and there were no gay

30:19

celebrities, there

30:23

were no gay sports stars, there was, there,

30:28

it was such a different world.

30:29

The difference between then and now

30:32

came about in no small part because

30:34

of the fallout from the Save Our Children

30:37

campaign. So many people

30:39

mobilized against that hateful campaign.

30:42

Even I, in my

30:44

own small way, was mobilized

30:46

by Anita Bryant.

30:49

I'm thinking back to B.B. Scarpey last

30:51

chapter when she said,

30:53

If you get steps on constantly, a little thing is enough

30:55

to set people off like that. I can't take this anymore.

30:58

Sometimes, enough

31:00

is enough. Most gay people

31:03

then and today just want

31:05

to live their lives. But Anita

31:07

Bryant and Save Our Children were

31:09

coming after us. She had set

31:11

people off. And in spite of a

31:13

string of defeats, including Miami Dade,

31:16

or maybe because of those defeats, glimmers

31:18

of hope started to appear.

31:21

I know why you cry, sister

31:24

Anita. A

31:27

life spent on your body while a ruse and

31:29

slave, yeah. And

31:32

it's your blind innocence.

31:35

Senator, Supervisor Harvey Milk.

31:39

In November of 1977, Harvey

31:42

Milk became the first openly gay person

31:44

elected to public office in California.

31:47

My name is Harvey Milk, and

31:49

I'm here to recruit you.

31:52

After Milk took office as a member of San Francisco's

31:54

Board of Supervisors, he almost immediately

31:57

returned to campaign mode to fight the Briggs

31:59

Initiative. Also known as Prop 6,

32:02

Briggs had been spawned by the campaign to repeal

32:04

Miami-Dade's gay ordinance. Arkansas

32:07

and Oklahoma had passed laws banning

32:09

gay people from working in public schools, and

32:12

conservative California state legislator John

32:14

Briggs figured that sounded like a good idea

32:16

for his state. But there was a growing

32:18

backlash

32:19

to the backlash.

32:21

I'm tired of listening to the Anita Brimes

32:24

twist the language of the Bible to fit

32:26

their own distorted apple. Gay

32:30

people all across the state,

32:33

the Briggs can only be defeated

32:35

if each and every one of you

32:38

comes out to everyone you

32:40

know you must. Milk

32:46

wasn't the first openly gay person elected to political

32:48

office in the U.S., as many people believe. That

32:51

was Kathy Kazuchenko, an out

32:53

lesbian who was elected to the Ann Arbor City Council

32:56

in Michigan in April of 1974. But

32:59

Harvey was so high profile. And

33:02

loud. Here he is confronting

33:04

California state senator John Briggs in

33:06

September of 1978. You

33:09

are the one who keeps bringing up this phony recruitment.

33:11

You know you're lying. You know you're changing

33:14

the statements around. And you're doing

33:15

that all the way around, just like you shifted

33:17

the money around in your campaigns. And you talk

33:19

about morality. And I question what is your

33:21

real motive behind it? What is your real ambitions

33:24

behind this? What are you really using this for? And

33:26

stop this phony issue that you know is a phony issue.

33:29

California's former governor Ronald Reagan

33:31

joined President Jimmy Carter, former President Gerald

33:34

Ford, and Governor Jerry Brown in

33:36

urging Californians to vote no on Prop 6.

33:40

Reagan wrote in the Los Angeles Herald Examiner

33:42

days before the election, quote, Homosexuality

33:45

is not a contagious disease like the measles.

33:48

Prevailing scientific opinion is that an individual

33:51

sexuality is determined at a very early

33:53

age and that a child's teachers do not

33:55

really influence this.

33:59

As we say in the neighborhood,

34:01

no shit, Sherlock. The

34:04

Briggs Initiative was rejected in November 1978. We're

34:10

coming out to walk in the sunlight.

34:16

We're coming out to fight for

34:18

our lives. To the gay

34:20

community all over this state.

34:23

My message to you is, so

34:26

far a lot of people joined us and

34:29

rejected Proposition 6 and now

34:32

we owe them something. We

34:34

owe them to continue the

34:37

education campaign that

34:38

took place. We must destroy

34:40

the myths once and for all, shatter

34:43

them. We must continue

34:45

to speak out and most

34:47

importantly, most importantly,

34:50

every gay person

34:52

must come out.

35:00

That same election day in November of 1978, Charlie

35:02

Brydon was crossing his fingers in a ballroom

35:05

in Seattle. What

35:07

was election night like? We

35:13

had the biggest hall in town and all

35:16

the television stations were there and as

35:18

the early returns came in and started

35:20

there was going to be an overwhelming defeat. The people jammed.

35:28

So many people came downtown that

35:31

night and the hall of the fire department showed up and they were going to shut

35:33

us down because we had over capacity

35:35

in the building.

35:37

But it was very exciting. We had a telephone line

35:39

down to California and the no one six committee

35:42

and we relished the

35:47

idea and the fact that we won

35:50

up here by a greater percentage

35:53

than the vote was in California. The

35:56

Seattle effort to repeal protections for gay

35:58

people was beaten back by a popular

35:59

vote of 63% to 37%.

36:17

Anita Bryant faced consequences for her actions.

36:20

Boycotts, canceled TV shows, and

36:22

she was dropped by the Florida Citrus Commission. The

36:26

1970s ended for her with a messy

36:28

divorce, and later she would declare bankruptcy.

36:31

Twice.

36:32

But the Save Our Children campaign's success

36:34

was noted.

36:36

Less than two years after the defeat of the Briggs Initiative

36:38

in California, the firebrand televangelist

36:41

Jerry Falwell had established the so-called

36:43

Moral Majority. It was a coalition

36:46

of conservative evangelicals hellbent

36:48

on influencing the National Republican Party.

36:51

While it was dissolved in 1989, the

36:53

Moral Majority wreaked havoc throughout the country

36:56

on a wide range of social and cultural issues,

36:59

from promoting anti-gay laws to legislating

37:01

against abortion and pornography and blocking

37:03

ratification of the Equal Rights Amendment.

37:15

Like I said, with my mother, things were

37:17

complicated. We had a relationship

37:20

where I was sometimes the adult, sometimes

37:22

the child. She could be unpredictable.

37:26

Sometimes she scared me. Yet, I

37:28

desperately wanted her approval.

37:32

But after that night, after gliding

37:35

down the driveway with the headlights out and

37:37

creeping up the stairs trying to sneak in unnoticed,

37:40

after seeing her bedroom door cracked and the light

37:43

on,

37:44

after hearing her call me

37:45

in, after having one of the

37:48

most consequential and terrifying

37:50

conversations of my life, and

37:52

after ending that conversation with her disappointment

37:55

so heavy in the air, it crushed

37:57

my chest.

37:59

All that, my mother did something

38:02

totally unexpected.

38:08

She very quickly pivoted and made me feel completely

38:10

comfortable and embraced. She,

38:13

um, uh, I

38:16

remember a conversation we had

38:18

in the kitchen, again in the kitchen, next

38:21

to the refrigerator,

38:23

and she had been dating at that point and occasionally

38:25

brought home a man.

38:26

And I think at that point she might have had her much

38:29

younger boyfriend. And she said,

38:31

um, that

38:36

she didn't have a double standard, that if she

38:38

could bring a man home, that I could as well.

38:42

And she bought me a full-size bed.

38:44

She replaced my twin bed with a full-size bed. She

38:46

was always very welcoming of boyfriends.

38:50

So, um, really

38:53

in some ways she was a marvel as I look

38:55

back, because I remember

38:59

one time I had a boyfriend in the kitchen. He was in

39:01

a bathrobe. It was the first time I think she met a boyfriend

39:03

who stayed overnight. She was perfectly welcoming.

39:06

She made breakfast for us. So

39:08

she was really terrific, but it was 13 years

39:11

before she went to a PFLAG meeting. And

39:14

then she jumped in with both feet.

39:18

So what did that look like? This would have been 1990 then,

39:20

I guess? It was the early 90s,

39:23

yes. She

39:25

started going to meetings, and then she,

39:27

uh, remember

39:30

we went to the 1993 march on Washington, as did she.

39:34

And she had her PFLAG sash and all

39:36

of her buttons, and it's one of my favorite photos

39:39

with my mom, which

39:41

we'll include in the episode notes. And

39:45

she co-chaired a New York City

39:47

PFLAG dinner, which was

39:49

really wonderful. She

39:52

joined me in an event

39:55

at the Gay Center here in New York, now the LGBTQ

39:57

Center,

39:59

Making History, which was the

40:02

original name of the Making a History book. She

40:04

joined me for an event, a launch event.

40:07

We had maybe 300 people at the center.

40:10

And my mom and I read an excerpt from the

40:12

book. My mom played the Gene

40:14

Manford part. I played the Morty Manford

40:16

part. Gene Manford was in the audience. It was one of the

40:18

most moving experiences I

40:20

had when that book was published. Morty

40:23

had just died a few weeks before and Gene was in

40:25

the audience.

40:26

And my mom and I were featured on the

40:28

front page of the metro

40:31

section of what was then New York

40:34

Newsday. It doesn't exist anymore.

40:36

And it was great.

40:38

And I remember one of my relatives

40:40

said to me, had

40:44

some concern about my mother sort of moving in on

40:46

my territory. I

40:49

was really happy for her to enjoy

40:52

the spotlight over this. I

40:54

know she got a lot of pleasure from

40:57

being the mom

41:00

of a minor gay celebrity.

41:02

I remember her telling me that she was traveling

41:05

once, and this is before Making

41:07

History was published. And she

41:09

was reading a copy of The Male

41:11

Couple's Guide to Living Together, my first book. And

41:14

she got into a conversation. It was

41:16

in the Caribbean, I think, with somebody who

41:18

was there. It was somebody who recognized the

41:21

book. And she very proudly

41:23

said she was the mother of the author.

41:26

So

41:28

such a complicated relationship with my mother.

41:30

In some ways, I so resented her, but also I

41:34

really was protective of her and

41:37

wanted her to have a good life.

41:39

She had had a hard life. Her father died when

41:41

she was 12. She was

41:43

an only child. Her mother was an immigrant. They

41:46

were poor.

41:47

My mother couldn't go to college because she had to go to work to

41:50

help support her mom. And then she

41:52

married my dad, who was mentally ill.

41:54

She didn't know it at first. She was mentally ill,

41:57

which was undiagnosed too. So.

41:59

I was very protective of her and

42:02

was happy to see her happy. And if if if

42:05

her being happy meant having her at the podium

42:07

with me at the center and she was a good reader,

42:09

by the way, I was really happy for

42:11

it. Something

42:13

I didn't know. And I only learned

42:16

at a meeting with Danny Drom, who is

42:18

a city councilman here in New York, a former

42:20

city councilman now and a real hero

42:23

of the movement.

42:24

When I met with him five years

42:27

ago, the first time to talk about

42:29

education issues in New York City

42:31

and how making gay history might

42:33

have some involvement in developing

42:36

curriculum materials. Danny

42:38

mentioned that he knew my mother. My mother had been dead

42:40

for years by this point. And I said, how

42:43

did you know my mother? He

42:45

said, well, she helped co-found PFLAG

42:48

Queens, the Queens chapter of PFLAG with him

42:51

and with Gene Manford.

42:52

I didn't know.

42:55

Wow. She never told me.

42:58

And I don't think I'm forgetting this.

43:01

I think I would have remembered if she told me. And

43:04

I think that she didn't tell me if

43:07

that was indeed the case. I think she didn't

43:09

tell me

43:10

because I had given her a little bit

43:12

of a lecture about how this

43:14

was my issue, not hers, and

43:16

that she had become this

43:19

activist. And I know this is a

43:21

problem for PFLAG parents sometimes. They

43:24

wind up being more involved than their kids.

43:28

But I think I

43:30

harbored a little bit of a resentment that that

43:32

my mother had become this activist.

43:36

But then I was also proud of her. She had

43:38

gone back to college. She got her social work degree. She

43:40

volunteered the gay men's health crisis and she ran

43:42

a support group for gay men whose

43:45

partners had died from AIDS. So

43:48

she was a

43:50

good person. And she

43:53

was protecting herself probably by not telling

43:55

me that she had helped to co-found

43:57

Queens PFLAG.

43:59

She were around that I could say, my, why didn't

44:02

you tell me? I'm so, you know, I'm really proud of

44:04

her. But I never

44:06

got to...

44:11

Shane, you get me to cry every

44:13

time. She's not around

44:16

for me to tell her. She's been, she died in 2000 and...

44:21

What year? 2004. She was 73,

44:24

long time ago. And it was years later

44:26

that I learned that she'd co-founded

44:28

PFLAG Queens. Anything

44:31

else you'd want to tell her? Oh,

44:34

God. Shane,

44:40

there are so many things I could tell my mother,

44:43

but I think I will refrain right now.

44:46

I think I would tell her that I

44:49

was harder on her than I needed

44:51

to be, that she was really, in

44:54

some ways had done the

44:57

right thing, mostly the right

44:59

things in dealing with me, that I wish she hadn't said she was

45:01

disappointed. But as

45:04

far as the range of reactions

45:06

that parents have to gay kids, it was

45:09

pretty good.

45:16

Sometimes good things happen for the wrong reasons.

45:20

In an ideal world, there's

45:22

of course no such thing.

45:24

I would have done things differently.

45:27

I wish I hadn't said, see you

45:29

later, Ma, that night she asked me if I was

45:31

gay.

45:34

I wish I'd gone to see a psychiatrist and

45:36

she'd gone to PFLAG sooner. I

45:40

wish I'd known the extent of my mom's allyship

45:43

and activism. And

45:45

I wish I'd been able to thank her for

45:47

all her good work before she died

45:49

nearly 20 years ago at the age of 73.

45:54

I wish it hadn't taken a hateful figure like Anita Bryant

45:56

in her homophobia to

45:58

reinvigorate the fight for gay people. writes, and

46:01

I wish it hadn't taken all that hateful

46:03

rhetoric to provoke a defiant

46:05

streak in me.

46:08

But that's how it happened. Anita Bryant's

46:10

grievances galvanized us. She

46:13

was the perfect symbol for an appeal

46:16

to so-called family values. And

46:18

she was also, by the way, there was

46:20

no small amount of misogyny at work here too.

46:23

The perfect symbol to direct our anger

46:25

toward.

46:27

So yeah, thank you, Anita.

46:46

This season of Making Gay History is produced

46:49

and written by me, Eric Marcus, and

46:51

Making Gay History's founding editor, Sara Burningham.

46:54

With archival research and production assistance from

46:56

Brian Fari and additional archival research

46:58

from Tyler Alpertario. Special

47:00

thanks to interviewers slash oral historian, Shane

47:02

O'Neill. Our studio engineers

47:05

for this episode were Casey Danielson and

47:07

Charles de Montobello. Coming of age

47:09

during the 1970s was mixed in sound

47:11

design by Anne Pope. This

47:13

season of Making Gay History was recorded at CDM

47:16

Sound Studios. Our theme music

47:18

and additional scoring were composed by Fritz Myers.

47:21

Our new theme features flautist Anna

47:23

Urie. Many thanks to our hardworking

47:25

crew at Making Gay History, including Deputy

47:28

Director Inga Duttaia, photo editor

47:30

Michael Green, and our social media producers

47:32

Christiana Pena and Nick Porter. Thank

47:35

you as well to the New York Public Library

47:37

Manuscripts and Archives Division, UCLA

47:40

Film and Television Archives, KPIX-TV

47:42

in the Bay Area, NWTVJ

47:45

Miami. Don't Pray for

47:47

Me was performed by Linda Tillery, composed by Mary

47:50

Watkins, and released on Olivia Records.

47:53

Making Gay History is made possible thanks to the ongoing

47:55

support of the Jonathan Logan Family Foundation, Broadway

47:58

Cares Equity Fights AIDS, the Kalamaz Foundation,

48:01

and Christopher Street Financial. We're deeply

48:03

grateful to Patrick Hines and Steve Tipton for their

48:06

two-year grant in support of Making Gay History's mission

48:08

to bring LGBTQ history to life through

48:10

the voices of the people who lived it. And

48:13

thank you to Ted Smith and Matt Vieira

48:15

for their recent major gifts. I

48:17

wrote to Matt to ask why he decided to support

48:19

Making Gay History, and he wrote, I

48:22

felt inspired to donate to MGH because

48:24

across the nation, I see states passing

48:27

laws discriminating against LGBTQ

48:29

plus people. And I feel it's critical

48:31

now more than ever that we learn our

48:33

history to know what worked and what

48:35

didn't work in the past to be successful

48:38

in our fight for equality today. Please

48:40

consider joining us on Making Gay History's Patreon

48:42

channel, where you can support our work and at the

48:44

same time gain access to exclusive

48:46

interviews, behind the scenes conversations,

48:49

and additional archival audio excerpts that

48:51

we think you'll enjoy hearing. Sign up

48:53

for just $5 a month at patreon.com

48:55

or go to makinggayhistory.com and

48:59

click on the Patreon button. Right

49:02

now on our Patreon channel, you can hear my

49:04

conversation with Ethan Ghetto, who is one of

49:06

the young activists who traveled to Florida to

49:08

help organize against Anita Bryan's campaign

49:11

to repeal the Miami-Dade ordinance. There's

49:13

a lot we can learn from the people who fought

49:15

against a past generation's anti-gay

49:18

bigots.

49:19

Not quite ready to go yet, because my former

49:21

sociology professor, Eileen Leonard,

49:25

had a mother-son story of her own to tell me, a story about her

49:27

and her son, Tim, and

49:29

the ripples of history that she shared with

49:31

me as we were wrapping up our conversation, our

49:33

first conversation in more than 40 years. But

49:36

you know what's interesting, Eric, is that Anita

49:39

Bryan helped you. You helped my son come out to

49:41

me. And

49:43

I think that's what I'm going to do. You

49:46

helped my son come out to me.

49:50

And when my husband

49:52

and I both thought that when Tim was in high school,

49:55

that he might be gay. You know, there weren't a

49:57

lot of the typical going out with girls

49:59

and pop. posters on the wall in the bedroom and

50:01

all this awful stuff. And

50:04

I thought maybe I should ask him about

50:06

it. And then I thought, no, maybe this

50:08

is something that's private and I should wait until

50:10

he comes to us, that this wasn't

50:13

something as a mother I should be broaching with him.

50:15

So I did what I usually do. I started doing

50:17

research and I found one of your books.

50:20

And since I knew you and trusted you, I

50:23

found in that book whether

50:25

the, as I remembered, it was like a question

50:28

and answer book. You'd ask questions and then give

50:30

answers. And one of them must have

50:32

had something to do with should parents broach

50:34

the subject with their children.

50:37

And my recollection of it was that your

50:40

answer was yes. And so that's

50:42

what I did. I went out for a walk with Tim

50:44

and our dog. And I

50:47

asked him, and Vassar helped me with this, I asked

50:50

him whether or not he was questioning his sexuality.

50:53

And he said yes. I

50:55

threw my arms around him and thanked him for telling

50:57

me. And we went on from there.

50:59

That makes me cry. So

51:02

you were a help to my family. Well,

51:05

you were a help to me and being my sociology teacher so

51:07

I could write that paper in your class. It just all

51:09

comes full circle. When

51:12

was that walk? What year and how old

51:13

was it? He was a junior in high school. So

51:16

that would have been what year? What

51:19

year would that have been? 2000, no,

51:21

he'd graduated from college in 2000, early

51:24

So 20 years ago. My

51:28

son is doing great. He lives in New

51:30

York City. He's a member of the

51:32

New York City Gay Men's Choir Chorus.

51:36

And he's out and proud. So

51:39

he's doing very, very well.

51:40

Is it a choice that was published first in the

51:43

mid-90s? Yeah, mid-90s. I had a hard

51:46

time getting it published. Is

51:48

that right? Oh, God, that seemed to

51:50

me recalling it so informative and helpful.

51:53

The editor who I tried to sell it to said we already

51:55

know all these answers. Why do we need this book? Oh,

51:58

wow.

52:02

As I said to Shane O'Neill earlier in the episode,

52:05

when I came out to my mother, there was no

52:07

guidebook for me for how to talk to her and

52:10

no guidebook for her for how to deal with me.

52:13

My question and answer book, Is It a Choice?, was

52:16

published 20 years after that awkward and

52:18

painful conversation in my mother's bedroom. It

52:21

was the kind of guidebook I wish I'd had,

52:24

and I'm so glad it helped Eileen and Timothy Leonard.

52:27

Here's another ripple of history, spreading out through

52:29

the generations. I had coincidentally

52:32

met Timothy Leonard through my work, decades

52:35

after his mother had found my book. Tim

52:37

works for the National Parks Conservation Association,

52:40

and he had a role in the complicated process of

52:42

getting Stonewall declared a national monument

52:45

by President Barack Obama back in We

52:49

met in the run-up to the Stonewall 50 celebrations.

52:52

Tim is now the NPCA's Northeast Program

52:55

Manager and leads meetings with the many

52:57

stakeholders involved in managing and

52:59

celebrating the Stonewall National Monument, including

53:02

from

53:02

time to time

53:03

me. We never know

53:05

how far these ripples will travel.

53:11

Coming of age during the 1970s is

53:13

a production of Making Gay History. Join

53:16

us next time for the final installment of this series,

53:19

Chapter 6, Marching On.

53:23

I'm Eric Marcus, so long, until next

53:25

time.